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Phosphate
2011-12-21, 10:49 AM
http://www.freewebs.com/aqwchaosdragon/Dragonslayer.jpg
"They say that those who battle monsters are to become monsters themselves. That the power driving us forward is hatred, and our goals are nothing but errant genocide. And I tell you now, before you are to embark on this journey of death and vengeance: they are in no way far from the truth." - Thirius, Dragonslayer

"Dragonslayers...a mirror into the ferocity of the powerless. The order had not been formed out of spite. It was not a coalition between like-minded individuals, survivors from devastated villages upon which the draconic wrath had befallen, nor could it have been. Indeed, the motives that would drive one to slaughter cannot be others than vengeance and grief, and it should be obvious by now that oftentimes it is not the case for those states of mind to be the reason why people would keep together as a group.

Truly, the first of the dragonslayers were lone venturers; and not noble ones either, indeed succumbing to their primal urge to avenge; nobody would endow them with any form of virtue. Many a peasant would watch their family being slaughtered by a coloured one, vow vengeance, train in the ways of combat and stealthily creep inside the dragons' lairs, slitting the throats of those who may not even be responsible for their loss in blind feats of rage. Alas, it doesn't even come close to the depravity of greedy scavengers that are just after the treasure, and for whom the lives of those majestic beings are nothing.

The draconic retaliation came as a natural reaction to this abuse, and it was then that humanoids united in their petty ways, becoming a real threat to the draconic race as a whole.

And I am to ask you...have you no memory? Is the past but a blank slate for your hardened hearts? How can you take comfort in the slaughter of those who gave us knowledge, magic not subservient to the gods, those who at cornerstones in our history stood up as mighty protectors?"

Mesiriel, Intents



Stats: Dragonslayers are fighters in nature, and as fighters they benefit greatly from high strength and constitution. Additionally, a high Charisma score may serve their more specific, niche abilities.

Background: Today, dragonslayers are as diverse as the races of dragons they are hunting, hailing from both poor villages and royal courts, the frigid north and the driest of deserts, civilized plains and the barrens of tribesmen.

Race: Any race whose members are Large or shorter, and is not draconic or lizard-like.

Alignment: Any, although Neutral Good dragonslayers are virtually impossible to find.

Hit Die: d12
Age: simple
Gold: as fighter
Special: Players who take this class at character creation instantly learn the Draconic language and writing.

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1st | +1 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Favored Enemy (Dragon), Track, Disregard
2nd | +2 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Goliath's Bane (d4), Evasion
3rd | +3 | +3 | +3 | +3 | All or Nothing
4th | +4 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Hardened, Swift Response
5th | +5 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Goliath's Bane (d6), Cleavestride
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +5 | +5 | Improved Disregard
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +5 | +5 | Champion's Rush, Bloodlust
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +6 | +6 | Improved Evasion, God's Leap
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +6 | Goliath's Bane (d8)
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +7 | +7 | 2nd favored enemy (special), Mettle
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +7 | +7 | Uncanny Confidence, Strike Behind Scales
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +8 | +8 | Draconic Detection
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +8 | +8 | Recounting the Centuries
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +9 | +9 | Goliath's Bane (d10), Dispersion
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +9 | +9 | Draconic Rejuvenation
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +10 | +10 | Oath of Vengeance
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +10 | +10 | Titanic Leap
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +11 | +11 | Anatomical Parry
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +11 | +11 | Decapitation
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +12 | +12 | Goliath's Bane (d12), Familicide
[/table]

Hit Dice: d12

Skill Points: 4+int mod (x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nature, arcana), Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim, Tumble

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Dragonslayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, one exotic weapon of his choice, all types of armor and all shields.

Class Features

Favored Enemy (Dragon): As the Ranger ability, except Dragon must be chosen. Bonuses increase from 2 to 4 at level 5, 6 at level 10, and 8 at level 20.

At level 10, the Dragonslayer may choose another favored enemy type/subtype. However, the bonuses only apply to the members of that type who are Large or bigger. Bonuses increase from 2 to 4 at level 15.

Track: You gain Track as a bonus feat.

Disregard: All diplomacy checks attempted by dragons on you fail. Also, you gain a +2 untyped bonus to will saves against all supernatural or spell-like mind-affecting abilities of dragons.

Goliath's Bane (Ex): Specialized training has learned the dragonslayer to do more damage to larger opponents. He gains a bonus to weapon damage rolls equal to d4 times the number of sizes an opponent is above medium (so +d4 for large, +2d4 for huge, +3d4 for gargantuan etc).

The dice used changes to d6 at level 5, d8 at level 9, d10 at level 14 and d12 at level 20.

Those dice can also be applied to nonlethal attacks, but they will still deal lethal damage. Furthermore, these dice do not get multiplied by critical hits.

Evasion (Ex): As the rogue ability.

All or Nothing (Ex): A Dragonslayer of 3rd level learns to strike with force and passion at a specific vital point. Such strikes are disastrous of done right, but ineffectual if done poorly. Before any melee attack, a dragonslayer chooses to execute either a normal or focused strike. When doing a focused strike, the threat range of the weapon increases by 1 step, and if you roll within the threat range the critical is instantly scored, without the need of a reroll. However, if the dice result does not fall within the threat range, the attack deals nonlethal damage.

Hardened (Ex): A Dragonslayer of 4th level gains DR 5/-. Then, at every 4 levels (8th, 12th, 16th, 20th etc), he may either gain 5 resistance to one type of energy or 1 point of DR.

Swift Response (Ex): Dragonslayers are used to danger sprouting from every direction, and retaliate swiftly. They may immediately strike back at an opponent attacking in melee, once per round. This is not treated as an attack of opportunity, and does not consume the AoO for the round.

Cleavestride (Ex): A level 5 Dragonslayer gains the Cleave feat, or if he already has it, the Greater Cleave feat (he need not meet the prerequisites). However, a dragonslayer is allowed to move between attacks. The maximum distance permitted is dex mod squares/2, rounded up.

Improved Disregard: All intimidate checks attempted by dragons on you fail. Additionally, once per minute you can make an opposed charisma check against a dragon within line of sight (d20+cha mod for both you and the dragon). If your result is higher than the dragon's, everyone will ignore his Frightful Presence for 1 minute.

Champion's Rush (Ex):When a dragonslayer is charging, his damage is increased by 1 for every square of movement, and if the attack succeeds, the target is pushed 5 feet back (regardless of the size difference). However, if he misses, he falls into prone.

Improved Evasion (Ex): As the rogue special ability.

Bloodlust (Ex): For every creature that grants experience and is taller than a dragonslayer that he kills, he gains +2 to damage and -2 to AC for 1 hour. A new kill stacks the bonus and resets the duration, up to a maximum number of times equal to the dragonslayer's Cha mod. If a dragonslayer meditates in silence for 10 minutes, he loses all the bloodlust modifiers to damage and AC and no longer gains any for 2 hours.

God's Leap (Ex): A level 8 dragonslayer is treated as having maximum ranks in the Jump skill. Additionally, if he jumps only once during a round, the distance moved by jumping is not counted against the maximum. Also, the DC for high jumps is halved.

Mettle (Ex): Starting at level 10, a dragonslayer's determination allows him to shrug off magical effects that would otherwise harm him. If he would make a successfully Will or Fortitude save that would normally reduce the spellís effect (such as a spell with entry Will partial or Fortitude half) the effect is instead negated.

Uncanny Confidence (Su): Only works for dragonslayers who have a charisma score of 15 or higher. If such a dragonslayer kills a dragon in combat (namely, he is the one giving the final blow), during his next attack he will be affected by True Strike. The dragonslayer can only benefit from this once per encounter.

Strike Behind Scales (Ex): A level 11 dragonslayer ignores all the DR of dragons when striking them in melee, and 5 DR when attacking anything else.

Draconic Counter-Detection (Su): A level 12 dragonslayer pinpoints the location of all dragons within 200 feet of him (including dragons that are hiding, invisible, or ethereal). Additionally, dragons cannot use their Blindsense to detect the dragonslayer.

Recounting the Centuries (Su): Select a dragon within line of sight as a standard action. If his charisma is higher than yours, this ability fails without being expended (you still lose a standard action). If not, he must make both a Fortitude and a Will save against a DC of 10+class level/2+Cha mod. If he fails both, he takes damage equal to his age (5 years=5 damage, 500 years=500 damage). If he fails only the Will save, he does not receive damage, but this ability is not expended. If he fails only the Fortitude save, he receives half damage. If he succeeds both, he takes no damage, and the ability is not expended. This ability can be used once per encounter, and is mind-dependent*.

*Mind-dependent abilities work only on creatures that have a mind, but are not mind-affecting abilities. So Recounting the Centuries can't be used on an undead dragon, but can be used on a dragon immune to mind-affecting effects.

Dispersion: A level 14 shield-wielding dragonslayer is immune to breath weapons, as is anyone one and two squares behind him. If he disperses a breath weapon and is 15 feet or closer to the dragon using it, the dragon is pushed 5 feet back.

Draconic Rejuvenation: By drinking a gallon of fresh dragon blood (by fresh, we mean that the dragon must have died in the past 24 hours, and it must be a True Dragon), a dragonslayer recovers 4d8 hit points and the fatigued and exhausted effects end on him. All Draconic Rejuvenation uses except for the first one in a day heal 0 hit points.

Oath of Vengeance: If a dragon kills one of the dragonslayer's allies, the dragonslayer will permanently deal 50% more damage to that dragon. Doesn't stack.

Titanic Leap (Su): A level 17 dragonslayer can make a jump as a full round action. If he chooses to do so, he may reach any point up to 150 feet away from him in any direction, including upwards.

Anatomical Parry (Ex): Whenever a dragonslayer is attacked by a creature with one of its natural weapons, he may make an attack roll instead of using his AC for defense. If the roll is higher than the creature's attack roll, the attack is blocked, and the creature receives damage from Goliath's Bane (only). If the roll is lower, the attack succeeds.

Decapitation (Ex): A level 19 dragonslayer's weapons are treated as vorpal when rolling natural 20 on attack roles against True Dragons.

Familicide (Su): A level 20 dragonslayer is a finely tuned slaughter machine. Whenever he kills a dragon with a non-supernatural ability, he may, once per round as a free action, select another dragon within line of sight. The selected dragon must be of the same race as the killed one (red, green, black, brass, copper etc.), be at least 1 age category younger than the killed one and have less charisma than the dragonslayer. If all these conditions are met, he dies (no save).

stack
2011-12-21, 10:58 AM
Perhaps disregard should include immunity to frightful presence?

Improved disregard should specify allies and have a range, maybe a clause about them being able to see/hear the dragonslayer.

Phosphate
2011-12-21, 01:08 PM
You're viewing it the wrong way. It's not the dragonslayer who encourages people to not be afraid of the dragon, it is the DRAGON who is made to look less threatening by the dragonslayer. Therefore, as the ability simply removes a racial feature altogether, does not require range. (also, I didn't say allies because logically enemies should also benefit from it) If you were talking about the range of the activation, I already gave it, it's line of sight.

And Disregard doesn't include immunity to frightful presence because it doesn't :smallsmile:.

Hyudra
2011-12-21, 01:17 PM
I saw the thread title, and I thought to myself, "Two ways this could go. Either it's going to be too specific, too focused, or it's got potential as a more general fighting style."

True enough, it's the former.

Problem with this class is that more than half its class features sort of drop off the radar if he's not fighting a dragon.

Average campaign, assuming normal frequency of dragons? Maybe, maybe, these class features come into play once a level.

So it's narrow.

On the flip side of the coin, is there anything to stop the Dragonslayer from taking a level in Ranger for ranger's favored enemy (dragon)? I mean, assuming it's a skyrimish sort of campaign where you can expect to fight a lot of dragons?

PEACH
2011-12-21, 03:00 PM
Favored Enemy (Dragon): As the Ranger ability, except Dragon must be chosen. Bonuses increase from 2 to 4 at level 5, 6 at level 10, and 8 at level 20.

At level 10, the Dragonslayer may choose another favored enemy type/subtype. However, the bonuses only apply to the members of that type who are Large or bigger. Bonuses increase from 2 to 4 at level 15.

Track: You gain Track as a bonus feat.

Appropriate. Specific, but appropriate.


Disregard: All diplomacy checks attempted by dragons on you fail. Also, you gain a +2 untyped bonus to will saves against all supernatural or spell-like mind-affecting abilities of dragons.

This is really weird, especially considering I don't think I've ever encountered a DM who tried using diplomacy checks on players (the system is broken as hell).


Goliath's Bane (Ex): Specialized training has learned the dragonslayer to do more damage to larger opponents. He gains a bonus to weapon damage rolls equal to d4 times the number of sizes an opponent is above medium (so +d4 for large, +2d4 for huge, +3d4 for gargantuan etc).

The dice used changes to d6 at level 5, d8 at level 9, d10 at level 14 and d12 at level 20.

Those dice can also be applied to nonlethal attacks, but they will still deal lethal damage. Furthermore, these dice do not get multiplied by critical hits.

Not a bad bonus, and for once it isn't only dragons!


Evasion (Ex): As the rogue ability.

It's evasion. Not much to say.


All or Nothing (Ex): A Dragonslayer of 3rd level learns to strike with force and passion at a specific vital point. Such strikes are disastrous of done right, but ineffectual if done poorly. Before any melee attack, a dragonslayer chooses to execute either a normal or focused strike. When doing a focused strike, the threat range of the weapon increases by 1 step, and if you roll within the threat range the critical is instantly scored, without the need of a reroll. However, if the dice result does not fall within the threat range, the attack deals nonlethal damage.

This all depends on the creature; if they are immune to nonlethal, this is utterly useless, but if they aren't and you don't expect them to heal it up, it's basically a freebie. The actual abilities it gives are very minor (auto crit scoring is meaningless when most fighters should almost always hit on almost all attacks, and 1 extra range isn't bad but isn't amazing), but it's a small bonus for no cost if nonlethal (+automatic lethal damage) isn't a hinderance.


Hardened (Ex): A Dragonslayer of 4th level gains DR 5/-. Then, at every 4 levels (8th, 12th, 16th, 20th etc), he may either gain 5 resistance to one type of energy or 1 point of DR.

OK, but not great.


Swift Response (Ex): Dragonslayers are used to danger sprouting from every direction, and retaliate swiftly. They may immediately strike back at an opponent attacking in melee, once per round. This is not treated as an attack of opportunity, and does not consume the AoO for the round.

Pretty nice.


Cleavestride (Ex): A level 5 Dragonslayer gains the Cleave feat, or if he already has it, the Greater Cleave feat (he need not meet the prerequisites). However, a dragonslayer is allowed to move between attacks. The maximum distance permitted is dex mod squares/2, rounded up.


If they have a dex mod of zero, are they unable to move? Anyway, cleave is really minor, and kind of doesn't fit since you're fighting, well, dragons (which usually aren't grouped up and dying in droves).


Improved Disregard: All intimidate checks attempted by dragons on you fail. Additionally, once per minute you can make an opposed charisma check against a dragon within line of sight (d20+cha mod for both you and the dragon). If your result is higher than the dragon's, everyone will ignore his Frightful Presence for 1 minute.


What's the action on the charisma check?


Champion's Rush (Ex):When a dragonslayer is charging, his damage is increased by 1 for every square of movement, and if the attack succeeds, the target is pushed 5 feet back (regardless of the size difference). However, if he misses, he falls into prone.


This could add a significant amount of damage given the right setup, so I'm kind of iffy about it. A cap might be reasonable just to prevent those sorts of shenanigans.


Improved Evasion (Ex): As the rogue special ability.

Still evasion, still fine.


Bloodlust (Ex): For every creature that grants experience and is taller than a dragonslayer that he kills, he gains +2 to damage and -2 to AC for 1 hour. A new kill stacks the bonus and resets the duration, up to a maximum number of times equal to the dragonslayer's Cha mod. If a dragonslayer meditates in silence for 10 minutes, he loses all the bloodlust modifiers to damage and AC and no longer gains any for 2 hours.

I don't know why you use "taller" instead of "a larger size than" (because height isn't defined, really). Anyway, this class feature is pretty iffy, since you'll be dropping to being basically autohit after a while (or just have no charisma mod and ignore the feature, I guess).


God's Leap (Ex): A level 8 dragonslayer is treated as having maximum ranks in the Jump skill. Additionally, if he jumps only once during a round, the distance moved by jumping is not counted against the maximum. Also, the DC for high jumps is doubled.

This is kind of a weird feature. I think that it should say just the first jump doesn't count for the distance (otherwise, there are some odd situations where you jump once, it doesn't count, then start to jump a second time and the first jump now counts). Max ranks in jump skill is kind of a weird feature to grant at 8, since you'd likely want ranks in jump before then. And doubling the DC for jumps is just kind of awful; why does a class feature massively punish you?


Mettle (Ex): Starting at level 10, a dragonslayer's determination allows him to shrug off magical effects that would otherwise harm him. If hewould make a successfully Will or Fortitude save that would normally reduce the spellís effect (such as a spell with entry Will partial or Fortitude half) the effect is instead negated.

It's mettle. It's pretty good.


Uncanny Confidence (Su): Only works for dragonslayers who have a charisma score of 15 or higher. If such a dragonslayer kills a dragon in combat (namely, he is the one giving the final blow), during his next attack he will be affected by True Strike. The dragonslayer can only benefit from this once per encounter.

Again, how often are dragons encountered in packs? This is just kind of a near useless ability, because even if you somehow get this to go off, true strike is, while great, not likely to benefit you since your full BAB attack should almost always hit.


Strike Behind Scales (Ex): A level 11 dragonslayer ignores all the DR of dragons when striking them in melee, and 5 DR when attacking anything else.

Not bad.


Draconic Counter-Detection (Su): A level 12 dragonslayer pinpoints the location of all dragons within 200 feet of him (including dragons that are hiding, invisible, or ethereal). Additionally, dragons cannot use their Blindsense to detect the dragonslayer.

This is a decent ability, but not really amazing.


Recounting the Centuries (Su): Select a dragon within line of sight as a standard action. If his charisma is higher than yours, this ability fails without being expended (you still lose a standard action). If not, he must make both a Fortitude and a Will save against a DC of 10+class level/2+Cha mod. If he fails both, he takes damage equal to his age (5 years=5 damage, 500 years=500 damage). If he fails only the Will save, he does not receive damage, but this ability is not expended. If he fails only the Fortitude save, he receives half damage. If he succeeds both, he takes no damage, and the ability is not expended. This ability can be used once per encounter, and is mind-dependent*.

*Mind-dependent abilities work only on creatures that have a mind, but are not mind-affecting abilities. So Recounting the Centuries can't be used on an undead dragon, but can be used on a dragon immune to mind-affecting effects.

A: Making up mind dependent is not really something I like. B: Age shouldn't be used for damage. It's just weird. C: There's no difference between making the will save and making both saves. D: It's an instakill even if they make the fort save for most all dragons past a certain age; you may as well just say "Can, 1/encounter, automatically kill a dragon with lower charisma if they fail a will save." So it's pretty strong in that one case. The problem is also with the specificity (I'll talk more about that later); having just a few combat abilities against non dragons, but a way to instakill dragons, means that it really throws off what counts as a "fair" encounter.


Dispersion: A level 14 shield-wielding dragonslayer is immune to breath weapons, as is anyone one and two squares behind him. If he disperses a breath weapon and is 15 feet or closer to the dragon using it, the dragon is pushed 5 feet back.

This is pretty useful.


Draconic Rejuvenation: By drinking a gallon of fresh dragon blood (by fresh, we mean that the dragon must have died in the past 24 hours, and it must be a True Dragon), a dragonslayer recovers 4d8 hit points and the fatigued and exhausted effects end on him. All Draconic Rejuvenation uses except for the first one in a day heal 0 hit points.

A level 15 ability that only heals 4d8 hit points? Why? That's just so incredibly minor, and removing fatigue and exhaustion is also not a huge boon at level 15. This ability is also just kinda weird; while I know that at this point characters are largely supernatural, drinking a gallon of blood is still just strange.


Oath of Vengeance: If a dragon kills one of the dragonslayer's allies, the dragonslayer will permanently deal 50% more damage to that dragon. Doesn't stack.

Bring level 1 hirelings out, get 50% damage boost. Probably not the intent, but if you can't do that, it's near worthless, because PCs dying is usually a pretty big thing. Does it still work if the dead guy is resurrected?


Titanic Leap (Su): A level 17 dragonslayer can make a jump as a full round action. If he chooses to do so, he may reach any point up to 150 feet away from him in any direction, including upwards. Titanic Leap as a cooldown of 2 rounds, that is, it cannot be utilized for 2 rounds after its use.

Why not just say it can only be used every three rounds, instead of saying it has a cooldown of two rounds (meaning it can only be used every three rounds?) Anyway, this is a really minor ability for level 17, since most people should just be able to fly that speed as a double (or even single) move.


Anatomical Parry (Ex): Whenever a dragonslayer is attacked by a dragon with one of its natural weapons (tail, claws, bite, wings), he may make an attack roll instead of using his AC for defense. If the roll is higher than the dragon's attack roll, the attack is blocked, and the dragon receives damage from Goliath's Bane (only). If the roll is lower, the attack succeeds.

A good ability, but only useful against dragons.


Decapitation (Ex): A level 19 dragonslayer's weapons are treated as vorpal when dealing critical strikes to True Dragons.

Vorpal only affects natural 20s, not criticals.


Familicide (Su): A level 20 dragonslayer is a finely tuned slaughter machine. Whenever he kills a dragon with a non-supernatural ability, he may, once per round as a free action, select another dragon within line of sight. The selected dragon must be of the same race as the killed one (red, green, black, brass, copper etc.), be at least 1 age category younger than the killed one and have less charisma than the dragonslayer. If all these conditions are met, he dies (no save).

This is cool, and flavorful, but actually pretty minor because of the way dragons work; if you're fighting a dragon that's tough, your no save kill will only really be killing a dragon that is a minor threat (and then chaining to a dragon that is no threat, etc.) It's only relevant if you're killing a dragon so far above your league even the younger dragons it is with are an actual threat.

Anyway, overall, this class has a few oddities (pointed out above) and is way to specifically about dragons. It really can't do all that much to non dragons, which means that it's in the situation where it's either "Yay, a dragon, free kill!" or "Not a dragon, time to be a worse fighter!" especially if you're fighting against, say, a PC type opponent, and not a bigass monster.

Phosphate
2011-12-21, 05:26 PM
This is really weird, especially considering I don't think I've ever encountered a DM who tried using diplomacy checks on players (the system is broken as hell).

Read the Core descriptions of Metallic Dragons combat strategy.


This all depends on the creature; if they are immune to nonlethal, this is utterly useless, but if they aren't and you don't expect them to heal it up, it's basically a freebie. The actual abilities it gives are very minor (auto crit scoring is meaningless when most fighters should almost always hit on almost all attacks, and 1 extra range isn't bad but isn't amazing), but it's a small bonus for no cost if nonlethal (+automatic lethal damage) isn't a hinderance.

You get it at level 3, so it's understandably not epic in power. Also, you can use it if you want to deal nonlethal damage (which ALL other classes must receive an attack penalty before doing).


OK, but not great.

At that point you as a dragonslayer will be delving in layers of wyrmlings, where you're assaulted by numerous targets at the same time...which is when DR is most important. Also, the /-- part is pretty rare, and better than what alternate barbarians get.


If they have a dex mod of zero, are they unable to move? Anyway, cleave is really minor, and kind of doesn't fit since you're fighting, well, dragons (which usually aren't grouped up and dying in droves).

If they have a dex mode of 0, they can't move. But neither can any class while cleaving. The very reason why this feature exists is that dragons are not grouped (they might be dying in droves, however, considering how much damage a dragonslayer can dish).


What's the action on the charisma check?

It's a nonaction.


This could add a significant amount of damage given the right setup, so I'm kind of iffy about it. A cap might be reasonable just to prevent those sorts of shenanigans.

It's both the strongest feature of the class (compared to the level you get it) and the single feature that completely disregards the height/type/anything of the target. So....yeah.


I don't know why you use "taller" instead of "a larger size than" (because height isn't defined, really). Anyway, this class feature is pretty iffy, since you'll be dropping to being basically autohit after a while (or just have no charisma mod and ignore the feature, I guess).

Height is measured pretty accurately in feet. And I don't want it to take into account only creatures that are strictly a larger size (I might make it same size or larger though, maybe). And you can EITHER invest in very good armor or meditate to ignore this class feature, both pretty clear out and reasonable choices.


1. This is kind of a weird feature. I think that it should say just the first jump doesn't count for the distance (otherwise, there are some odd situations where you jump once, it doesn't count, then start to jump a second time and the first jump now counts). 2. Max ranks in jump skill is kind of a weird feature to grant at 8, since you'd likely want ranks in jump before then. 3. And doubling the DC for jumps is just kind of awful; why does a class feature massively punish you?

1. You can't jump a second time.
2. Then spend skill points. Not like you don't have enough.
3. It was meant to say half, my bad.


Again, how often are dragons encountered in packs? This is just kind of a near useless ability, because even if you somehow get this to go off, true strike is, while great, not likely to benefit you since your full BAB attack should almost always hit.

Better safe than sorry. And you can encounter dragons in packs, the only problem is that only 1 or 2 will be actually powerful.
Furthermore, you need not use it right away. It says "on your next attack", nothing else. You might as well not fight anything for a decade, then land a surefire blow.


This is a decent ability, but not really amazing.

Brass dragons. Blue dragons. Force dragons etc.


A: Making up mind dependent is not really something I like. B: Age shouldn't be used for damage. It's just weird. C: There's no difference between making the will save and making both saves. D: It's an instakill even if they make the fort save for most all dragons past a certain age; you may as well just say "Can, 1/encounter, automatically kill a dragon with lower charisma if they fail a will save." So it's pretty strong in that one case. The problem is also with the specificity (I'll talk more about that later); having just a few combat abilities against non dragons, but a way to instakill dragons, means that it really throws off what counts as a "fair" encounter.

I used mind dependent before (check Sire in my sig).
Unlike everything else, dragons actually get progressively stronger with age, so it ties in directly and works with them.
Yes there is a difference between making the will save and making both saves: if he makes both saves, the ability is expended. Which means that the dragonslayer CAN'T use the ability again in the encounter. If he makes the will, the ability can be used again.
Furthermore, it's actually weak. Phantasmal killer comes earlier, and it just kills, as simple as that. And not only dragons.

Anyway, this guy has made the point of his life to slay dragons. A warblade killing a dragon as easily as a dragonslayer does, THAT would be unfair.


A level 15 ability that only heals 4d8 hit points? Why? That's just so incredibly minor, and removing fatigue and exhaustion is also not a huge boon at level 15. This ability is also just kinda weird; while I know that at this point characters are largely supernatural, drinking a gallon of blood is still just strange.

Why, cause it's not a spell. It's a quick fix you can use while in a dungeon. There's no "God I gotta go back to that town buy some rods and cross-class UMD". And also, drinking is a move action. Removing exhaustion every time you want as a move action as long as you have a big enough backpack with plenty of bottles seems fair to me.


Bring level 1 hirelings out, get 50% damage boost. Probably not the intent, but if you can't do that, it's near worthless, because PCs dying is usually a pretty big thing.

I don't understand your statement here. Why would you need a 50% damage boost against a level 1 hireling?


Does it still work if the dead guy is resurrected?

Yes.


Why not just say it can only be used every three rounds, instead of saying it has a cooldown of two rounds (meaning it can only be used every three rounds?) Anyway, this is a really minor ability for level 17, since most people should just be able to fly that speed as a double (or even single) move.

Meh, I'll just remove the cooldown and make it at will.


A good ability, but only useful against dragons.

Should I make it against natural weapons in general?


Vorpal only affects natural 20s, not criticals.

Typo, will correct.


This is cool, and flavorful, but actually pretty minor because of the way dragons work; if you're fighting a dragon that's tough, your no save kill will only really be killing a dragon that is a minor threat (and then chaining to a dragon that is no threat, etc.) It's only relevant if you're killing a dragon so far above your league even the younger dragons it is with are an actual threat.

Iiiii've done a couple math and this guy can take on dragons with 2 or 3 CR more than him. So....not that minor?


Anyway, overall, this class has a few oddities (pointed out above) and is way to specifically about dragons. It really can't do all that much to non dragons, which means that it's in the situation where it's either "Yay, a dragon, free kill!" or "Not a dragon, time to be a worse fighter!" especially if you're fighting against, say, a PC type opponent, and not a bigass monster.

How exactly it is worse than a fighter? I mean, add all non-dragon-specific things this class has, and there's no fighter bonus feat ever (except that one which lets you learn a maneuver) to be better than even half of them.

Also, there are a lot of classes which are bad against a PC type opponent. Take a paladin fighting non-evil people, or an abjurant wizard fighting tier 3 mundanes, or really a ranger, or if you're strictly speaking of open conflict a rogue. They all fail against "the average PC".

ArkenBrony
2011-12-21, 06:13 PM
I love this class a lot, good job. i think it is a fairly balanced class in a campaign where dragons are occaisional, slightly lower tier when rarely fighting dragons, and overpowered in a campaign where dragons are commonplace.

I like the favored enemy, though i think it might work better to get a new favored enemy every 5 levels and keep the limit of only larger opponents, or keep them with that second favored enemy, without the limitation.

i like track.

i like disregard, but i think immunity to dragonfear would make the dragonslayer not have a chance of running from an enemy that they have sworn to kill, even if they die fighting.

goliaths bane really makes this class work outside of dragons, but if your a halfling or another small creature, wouldnt it work on mediums?

evasion works.

i like all or nothing at low level, considering you get a higher threat range before fighters get improved critical.

hardened is great, but can you increase the elemental resistance beyond 5?

cleavestride is good but i'd give it a minimum of 1, because a class feature that does nothing because of your build is annoying.

i like improved disregard, but i think that it should just give a radius around you immunity to dragonfear because its a specific monster, not everything.

i like champions rush.

i like improved evasion.

i agree that there should be a cap because some fights, you dont have time to meditate, and a -20 to ac can get you killed.

i like gods leap.

i like mettle.

i dont think uncanny confidence neads the charisma requirement, but if you want to keep it, i would say to give an alternative in case they cant use it.

strike behind scales is good.

draconic counter-detection is good.

i like recounting the centuries, because it makes hard fights within grasp of winning.

i like dispersion.

i think draconic rejuvination should have an increase in health based on level, becaus of the time limit before you can do it again.

oath of vengeance is good.

titanic leap is good.

i think anatomical parry should be added to parry, as opposed to being a sepperate ability.

i like decapitation

and i like familicide.

PEACH
2011-12-21, 07:30 PM
Read the Core descriptions of Metallic Dragons combat strategy.

This isn't a problem with the combat strategies, it's a problem with diplomacy. In a word, it's broken. Using diplomacy on PCs is a really, really bad thing in almost all circumstances, so I consider the ability basically irrelevant.


You get it at level 3, so it's understandably not epic in power. Also, you can use it if you want to deal nonlethal damage (which ALL other classes must receive an attack penalty before doing).

It doesn't have to be epic in power, but it just feels really minor and, against stuff that's immune to nonlethal, basically meaningless.


At that point you as a dragonslayer will be delving in layers of wyrmlings, where you're assaulted by numerous targets at the same time...which is when DR is most important. Also, the /-- part is pretty rare, and better than what alternate barbarians get.


DR in general is pretty bad. Barbarians DR is pretty minor and meaningless. At the level you get it it's not bad, but it doesn't scale well anyway.


If they have a dex mode of 0, they can't move. But neither can any class while cleaving. The very reason why this feature exists is that dragons are not grouped (they might be dying in droves, however, considering how much damage a dragonslayer can dish).

I know other classes can't move, I just wasn't sure if they could still do so or not. As for dying in droves: It's possible, but unlikely, considering you'd need to be one shotting them with non charging attacks.


It's a nonaction.


Then state that, if it's not mentioned I believe the convention is that it's a standard action.


It's both the strongest feature of the class (compared to the level you get it) and the single feature that completely disregards the height/type/anything of the target. So....yeah.

And? A cap is still reasonable due to movespeed shenanigans adding loads of dice. The fact it's the only feature that does anything for the class against non dragons and non large creatures aside, that could still be problematic.


Height is measured pretty accurately in feet. And I don't want it to take into account only creatures that are strictly a larger size (I might make it same size or larger though, maybe). And you can EITHER invest in very good armor or meditate to ignore this class feature, both pretty clear out and reasonable choices.


AC scales far worse than attack in the game, so saying "get more AC to make up for the AC penalties you take" isn't great. Neither is forcing the class to spend 1/12th it's time meditating to keep the feature off. Just let them turn it off as a free action; penalizing players is bad.


1. You can't jump a second time.
2. Then spend skill points. Not like you don't have enough.
3. It was meant to say half, my bad.

If you can't jump a second time, it's worded oddly, because it implies you can (but then both jumps cost movement). As for skill points: The problem is that it's a trap. It's a mid level class feature, so if you can start with it, its great, but if not, you have to waste skill points on jump. That's just poor design.


Better safe than sorry. And you can encounter dragons in packs, the only problem is that only 1 or 2 will be actually powerful.
Furthermore, you need not use it right away. It says "on your next attack", nothing else. You might as well not fight anything for a decade, then land a surefire blow.


The "benefit from this once per encounter" made me assume you had to attack during that encounter. Even then, it doesn't matter, because you should almost never be missing your highest BAB attack anyway. It's not a bad bonus, but it's really, really minor.


Brass dragons. Blue dragons. Force dragons etc.

I said it was useful but not amazing. I don't know what listing the creatures that it is particularly useful against is going to do to change my mind.


I used mind dependent before (check Sire in my sig).
Unlike everything else, dragons actually get progressively stronger with age, so it ties in directly and works with them.
Yes there is a difference between making the will save and making both saves: if he makes both saves, the ability is expended. Which means that the dragonslayer CAN'T use the ability again in the encounter. If he makes the will, the ability can be used again.
Furthermore, it's actually weak. Phantasmal killer comes earlier, and it just kills, as simple as that. And not only dragons.

Anyway, this guy has made the point of his life to slay dragons. A warblade killing a dragon as easily as a dragonslayer does, THAT would be unfair.

I understand dragons get stronger with age. My point is that the ages, by RAW, are always over twice their hit points barring epic dragons and a few extra strong ones. They have to pass the will save or they die.

If you honestly think this is weaker than phantasmal killer, I don't know what to say. Phantasmal killer is easy to be immune to (mind affecting and fear), requires failing both saves, and allows SR (not that SR is usually a problem). This still kills it even on a successful fortitude save in almost all cases.

As for expending it if it fails both:


f he succeeds both, he takes no damage, and the ability is not expended.

As for the warblade thing: It's a problem with the design of a class that's supposed to only be any good against one specific thing, but is a 20 level base class. This should be a 5 level PrC for the amount of specificity it has.


Why, cause it's not a spell. It's a quick fix you can use while in a dungeon. There's no "God I gotta go back to that town buy some rods and cross-class UMD". And also, drinking is a move action. Removing exhaustion every time you want as a move action as long as you have a big enough backpack with plenty of bottles seems fair to me.

4d8 is still basically useless. Drinking a potion is a standard action. Exhaustion removal is incredibly easy. A gallon of liquid is not a potion (potions are one ounce of liquid, which is less than a hundredth of a gallon). As a sidenote, I don't think anybody uses backpacks at 15th level; it's bags of holding or better.


I don't understand your statement here. Why would you need a 50% damage boost against a level 1 hireling?

Get level one hirelings. Dragon uses an AoE, boom, 50% damage boost and some dead people nobody cares about.


Meh, I'll just remove the cooldown and make it at will.

It wouldn't hurt, considering it's a full round action to move less than you'd normally be able to (with a few minor move speed enhancements).


Should I make it against natural weapons in general?

No, because it's incredibly good. It's just really specific, and leads to the problem with this classes design; it's really good against dragons, but really poor against everything else.


Iiiii've done a couple math and this guy can take on dragons with 2 or 3 CR more than him. So....not that minor?


Assuming you are correct, no, it's still minor and shows the problem inherent with the class. A: it can take on stuff much higher CR than it should. B: If a dragon of 2-3 higher CR than it is easy enough, then instagibbing a dragon of the same CR is probably meaningless.


How exactly it is worse than a fighter? I mean, add all non-dragon-specific things this class has, and there's no fighter bonus feat ever (except that one which lets you learn a maneuver) to be better than even half of them.

It's got evasion, damage boosting on charges and to larger enemies, mettle, a few more skills, a bit more HP, DR, and a counterattack EWP, jumping and one favored enemy (if it's larger).

In exchange, it's got no bonus feats, and it arguably has a huge AC penalty as well (damage is easy enough to get to the "instagib if you get hit" range, so I don't think it matters so much). It may not be weaker than the fighter, but since it tends towards the defensive, it won't really be outputting as much as the fighter later on, and both of them are easily incapacitated by (non dragon) foes that are mobile and have spells.


Also, there are a lot of classes which are bad against a PC type opponent. Take a paladin fighting non-evil people, or an abjurant wizard fighting tier 3 mundanes, or really a ranger, or if you're strictly speaking of open conflict a rogue. They all fail against "the average PC".

You don't have to convince me that plenty of things in 3.5 are poorly designed. That doesn't mean there needs to be more. Something as specific as this should be a 5 level PrC; it's very weak against same-level opponents, except against Dragons it has a slew of great abilities, meaning that against Dragons it overshadows other people, but it's nearly dead weight against non dragons. While a few specific bonuses aren't bad in a base class, a base class should in general be useful in all situations; this is only useful in dragon based situations.