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View Full Version : The Shield(3.5 D&D, PEACH) More board less sword



bobthe6th
2011-12-23, 05:40 PM
this is the sword and board. on top of that this is a type change class. he never actually becomes a construct, but he gets all their immunities/defenses. I also tried to fix the main problem of tanks, ie that no one will actually attack them over the wizard. now as a standard action, he can cause a save or attack him. yes this should tank better then a knight, mostly because it dosn't get much for offense.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/Araxmas/122708_Warforged_Juggernaut_Path-new.jpg

"Yes attack me, don't notice the wizard destroying your freinds. pay attention to the man made of steel. good human!"- Ward the warforged Shield mocking a rather unlucky sniper.


Student of the Shield.

Referred to as a Shield.

There is little that has the durability of a golem. They can take massive quantities of punishment and keep going. Very little can harm them, even magic fails to affect them. This is the goal of a Student of the shield. They wish to become the ultimate juggernaut, the ultimate punishment sponge. They start as heavily armored warriors, and end as mechanical engines of destruction.

Adventures: Shields are often brought along on adventures by light armored casters. The massive chunk of armor the Shield brings to the table is often enough to get him into any adventuring party. As such, they mostly adventure to find constructs and to study them.

Characteristics: They are tanks. Full stop. They gather enemies to them, then huddle behind armor while they beat on him. At higher levels they can stand up to foes with DR and SR. they buff allies with their Amulets, and by sacrificing their own armor class.

Alinement: Any, but usually lawful.

Religion: Mostly Shields worship gods of crafting or gods of war.

Background: Shields tend to come from noble or military families. Their heavy armor doesn't come cheap.

Races: As with all classes, humans are common as Shields. Dwarves with their affinity for heavy armor often become Shields.

Other Classes: Most classes enjoy having the Shield around. A moble wall never goes ammis. Some glory hounds dislike a the Attention grabing tricks of a Shield, but when they get to slice apart foes charging to get at the shield they usually stop caring.

Role: A Shield is a tank. nuff' said.

Game rule information.

Hit Die: d12
Starting Age: Simple
Starting Gold: 6d8x10
abilities: Constitution is your main score. Your job is to make foes attack you, if you don't have tons of HP you won't last. Dexterity is also important, as it boosts your sky high ac even higher and boosts your rather weak reflex save. Wisdom is important as it boosts your main abilities DC, without a high DC you are just a 9 square patch of difficult terrain.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|0|+2|+0|+2|Turtleing, Look at Me!, Smash

2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Defensive Mastery, Size up

3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Mithral Motion

4th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Mettle, Shield Ward

5th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Cover thy joints, Improved Look at Me!

6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|Shepard, Skin of Flesh

7th|+5|+5|+2|+5|Heart of Iron, Shield Wall of One

8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Amulet, Improved Size Up

9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6|Armored Soul, improved Shield Ward

10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Greater Look at Me!, Durability of Stone

11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7|Will of Force

12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Improved Amulet

13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Improved Shield Wall of One

14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Improved Cover thy joints, Greater Size up

15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Master Look at Me!, Alloyed Body

16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Master Amulet

17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Blade Ward, Blood of Clay

18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Fuse

19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Greater Shield Wall of One

20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Transcendent of the Guardian

[/table]

Skills:The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

a Shield gets 2+int modifier skills per level, times four at first level.

Weapon and armor proficiencies:all simple and martial weapons, and all armor and shields.

Turtleing(EX): At first level a Shield learns the art of responding. When a foe misses him with a melee attack, a Shield can respond with an attack with any weapon available to them. This is an immediate action, and the foe must be within the Shields reach. At sixth level, this ability is no action but uses up one of the Shields attacks of opportunity. At twelfth level this is no action and does not use up attacks of opportunity. Additionally, a Shield can forgo this counter attack for greater damage on his next blow. this doubles the damage of the next blow and grants a +4 bonus to hit on his next attack. he may forgo another counter attack at eighth and sixteenth level, each time adding another x1 to the multiplier(ie x3 at eighth, x4 at sixteenth) and adding another +4 to hit each time. this does not use up the action required to initiate the counter attack.

Look at Me!(EX): At first level a Shield learns to draw attention. As a standard action a Shield may force a foe within 100ft that he has line of sight and line of affect make a will save, DC 10+1/2 the shields class level+the Shields Wisdom modifier. If they fail, they must focus their attention on the Shield and make another will save with the same DC. If they fail the second save, they are so focused they are treated as flatfooted for all purposes except against the shield. Focusing their attention on the Shield entails attacking him to the best of their abilities, and ignoring all other targets in the combat. This lasts until either the Shield is slain or the combat ends. creatures immune to mind effecting effects get a +4 bonus on the save.

Smash(EX): At first level, a Shield learns to swing his shield as part of his body. He gains a slam attack dependent on what shield he is carrying. A buckler and light shields are to light for this ability. A heavy shield is considered a secondary natural slam, dealing bludgeoning damage according to the table below and adding a Shields full strength to hit and damage. a tower shield can only be used for this ability if it is carried two handed, it is then treated as a primary slam dealing bludgeoning damage according to the table below but treated as three levels higher and adding a Shields one and a half times the Shields strength to damage. Spikes added to the shield changes the damage to piercing or bludgeoning, and add their enchantments to the slam.

{table=head]level|Small Damage|Medium Damage|Large Damage|Huge Damage|Gargantuan Damage| Colossal Damage
1-3|1d4|1d6|1d8|1d10|2d6|2d8
4-7|1d6|1d8|1d10|2d6|2d8|3d6
8-11|1d8|1d10|2d6|2d8|3d6|3d8
12-15|1d10|2d6|2d8|3d6|3d8|4d6
16-19|2d6|2d8|3d6|3d8|4d6|4d8
20-22|2d8|3d6|3d8|4d6|4d8| 5d6
23|3d6|3d8|4d6|4d8|5d6|5d8
[/table]

Defensive Mastery(EX): At second level a Shield learns to use their shield and armor to greater affect. They apply their shield and armor bonus bonus to touch ac, maximum 1 point of each per level. Also, they gain a miss chance according to the size of their shield. A buckler provides no miss chance. A light shield provides 5% miss chance at fifth plus another 5% every five levels, with a maximum of 20%. A heavy shield provides a 5% miss chance per 2 levels, with a maximum of 50%. A tower shield provides a 10% miss chance per 2 levels, with a maximum of 60%.

Size UP(SU): At second level a Shield learns to augment its form with the power of golems. As long as the Shield is wearing armor and carrying a shield, he may chose to grow one size category as a free action, and can return to his normal size as a free action. He gains all the bonuses and penalties of his new size, and 10 temporary HP(these do not stack, and are lost if the Shield returns to his original size). All of his equipment grows and shrinks with him. He does not gain any attribute or natural armor bonuses for using this ability or any subsequent versions.

Mithral Motion(EX): At third level a Shield grows more used to his massive armor. He lowers the category of any armor he is wearing(ie. mountain plate->heavy->medium->light), when pertaining to speed penalties. so he can move at full speed in medium armor, get the full run multiplier in heavy armor, and run at all in mountain plate. He also raises the maximum dexterity bonus of armor and shields he is wielding by by 2, lowers ASF by 20%, and lowers the armor check penalty by 4. he also becomes immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and magical sleep affects. he also gains SR 10+Character level.

Mettle(EX): At fourth level a Shields mind also becomes armored. When he succeeds on a will or fortitude save, he now entirely negates the effect.

Shield Ward(EX): At fourth level a Shield can use his shield to defend himself against large bursts. This has no effect with bucklers. With a light shield he gets a +2 bonus to his reflex saves against area affect spells or abilities. With a large shield he is considered to have evasion against such affects along with a +2 to reflex saves. With a tower shield he is considered to be around a corner along on a successful save, along with the the benefits of a large shield.

Cover thy Joints(EX): At fifth level a Shield has so much armor on, hitting a vital spot is nearly impossible. He gains percentage chance to resist any form of precision damage, and the extra damage of critical hits equal to the sum of his armor bonus to ac and his shield bonus to ac divided by two times five(ie ((armor bonus+shield bonus)/2)*5 example full plate and tower shield ((10+4)/2)*5=35%).

Improved Look at Me!(EX): At fifth level a Shield learns to draw even more attention to himself. He may now create a shorter lasting attention grab for more then one foe. As a standard action he can use his “Look at Me!” ability on all foes within a 60ft radius. He mus have line of sight and line of affect to the foes. This ability lasts 1+the Shields wisdom modifier round.

Shepard(EX): At sixth level a Shield learns to draw the attention of the mindless. Targets immune to mind-effecting effects no longer get a bonus to saves against“look at me!” abilities.

Skin of Flesh(EX): At sixth level a Shields flesh becomes but another suit of armor. He is considered armored in light armor even without armor. he also gains a bonus to natural armor equal to 1/4 his shield level.

Heart of Iron(EX): At seventh level a Shield learns to weaken the blows that manege to hit him. He gains DR/adamantine equal to ¼ his class level+ ¼ the sum of his armor and shield bonuses to AC(DR gained from other sources does not stack, but overlaps if it is higher). He also becomes immune to stunning and death from massive damage. He also gains SR 20+ character level.

Shield Wall of One(EX): At seventh level a Shield learns boost all nearby allies defenses. He may grant a +1/4 Shield levels moral bonus to armor class to all allies within a 5ft radius. this is a free action, and lasts until the start of the shields next turn.

Amulet(SU): At eighth level a Sheild imitates his name sakes most famous feature. He can create one amulet with one hour of work and 30 gp in materials. He may have only one Amulet created at one time. The Amulet can take any form, but because of the magic imbedded in it the Amulet is very noticeable being the first thing anyone notices about the wearer. Anyone wearing the Amulet is considered to be under the affects of a “shield other” spell cast by the Shield.

Improved Size Up(SU): At eighth level a Shield delves deeper into the power of Constructs. He may now increase another size category with "Size Up". he gains He gains all the bonuses and penalties of his new size, and 10 temporary HP per size he went up(these do not stack(except for more then one size, so going from small to large gets you 20hp, but false life doesn't stack), and are lost if the Shield returns to his origional size).

Armored Soul(EX): At ninth level a Shield doesn't fail a save on a natural one.

improved Shield Ward(EX): At ninth level a Shield can use his shield to defend himself more effectively against bursts. This has no effect with bucklers. With a light shield the bonus increases to a +4 bonus to his reflex saves against area affect spells or abilities. With a heavy shield the bonus increases to improved evasion and a +4 to reflex saves against such effects. With a tower shield he is considered to be around a corner (if he is wearing heavy armor he is considered to be in a sealed room) on a successful save, along with the the increased benefits of a large shield.

Greater Look at Me!(EX): At tenth level a Shield can draw attention even more effectively. His Improved look at me ability stretches out to a 100ft burst and last 2+wisdom modifier rounds.

Durability of Stone(EX): At tenth level a Shield becomes able to weather the elements. He gains resistance 10 to all elements.

Will of Force(EX): At eleventh level a Shield draws on his will to deflect blows. He gains a deflection bonus to armor class equal to 1/4 his Shield level. He also is now immune to energy drain, ability damage/drain, all poisons, all forms of disease, and death affects. He also gains spell resistance 30+class level.

Improved Amulet(EX): At twelfth level a Shield can have active as many “Amulets” as he wishes.

Improved Shield Wall of One(EX): At thirteenth level the area a Shield can affect with “Shield wall of one” is now a 30ft emanation.

Improved Cover thy joints(EX): At fourteenth level the percentage chance of “Cover thy Joints” is doubled.

Greater Size Up(SU): At fourteenth level a Shield taps further into the power of Constructs. He may now increase another size category with "Size Up"(3 in total now). He gains all the bonuses and penalties of his new size, and 10 temporary HP per size increased(these do not stack(except for more then one size, so going from small to large gets you 20hp, but false life doesn't stack), and are lost if the Shield returns to his origional size).

Master Look at Me!(EX): At fifteenth level a Shield can draw attention really effectively. His “Improved Look at Me!” ability stretches out to a 120ft burst and last 3 rounds.

Alloyed Will(EX): At fifteenth level a Shield is more armor then man. Armor now counts as one category lower then it would under the affects of mithral motion. His DR from Heart of Iron becomes 1/2 Shield level. His spell resistance Changes to total immunity to magic, suspended for one round as a free action. The natural armor bonus of Skin of Flesh grows to 1/2 their class level, and they are always considered to be wearing medium armor but due to mithral motion this doesn't limit their movement. the energy resistance from Durability of stone increases to 30. He gains lowlight vision, dark vision out to 30ft(unless they already have darkvision), Immunity to Necromancy effects, Immunity to paralysis effects, Immunity to nonlethal damage, and he no longer needs to eat sleep or breath.

Master Amulet(EX): At sixteenth level, anyone wearing an “Amulet” within 30 ft of the Shield gain a 50% chance to resist to anything the Shield is immune. This resistance is rolled before any other methods of resistance. They also no longer need to eat sleep or breath within 30ft of the Shield.

Blade Ward(EX): At seventeenth level, any weapon the Shield wields is treated as having the defending property.

Blood of clay(EX): At seventeenth level, a Shields body starts to repair itself, and the process can be sped up at the cost of defense. he gains fast healing 1. as a free action a Shield can chose to an ac penalty to increase his fast healing for a round. for each -3 of the penalty he increases his fast healing by one, taking a maximum of -3 per 5 Shield levels.

Fuse(EX): At eighteenth level, a Shield can chose to fuse with a piece of equipment he is carrying as a free action. It becomes part of him, and gains all of his immunities, resistances, and protections. He can fuse with as many items as he has body slots. An Item takes up its normal body slot and can be Unfused as a free action. Sundering any items fused in this way is impossible. Armor and shields fused in this way lose all armor check penalties, arcane spell failure, speed penalties, and have no maximum dexterity modifier.

Greater Shield Wall of One(EX): at nineteenth level, the benefits of shield wall of one extend to anyone wearing an “Amulet” in addition to the 30ft radius.

Transcendence of the Guardian(EX): At twentieth level, the Shield becomes a true construct in all but body. Their Dark vision increases 60ft(unless they already have better dark vision). His natural armor bonus increases to equal to his Shield class level. He is now always considered to be wearing Heavy armor, but his movement speed is unhindered. The base fast healing for Blood of Clay increases to 2. The energy resistance from Durability of Stone increases to 60. His DR from Heart of Iron increases to full Shield level. Lastly A Shield can increase their size one category (up to colossal) as a free action, and can reduce it to their original size as a free action. Their equipment sizes with them. The Shield gains all the penalties of his new size, and 10 temporary HP per size increased(these do not stack(except for more then one size, so going from small to large gets you 20hp, but false life doesn't stack), and are lost if the Shield returns to his origional size). He does not gain any attribute or natural armor bonuses for using this ability. This is a separate ability overlaps with all versions of size up, though either may be used.


thoughts?

zegram 33
2011-12-23, 06:17 PM
something i saw on a semisimilar build a while ago, what about at a very high level converting a percentage of damage done into nonlethal damage?
you could even say 5% a level so by level 20 he can only b knocked out, beffiting a tank?

also, some of the "percentage" effects, you havnt actually said what percentage is resisted, etc

looks like a very nice class though!

bobthe6th
2011-12-23, 06:37 PM
eh... regeneration is out. he has a D12 HD, Heavy DR, SR/magic immunity, immunity to almost every major effect(and with mettle/improved mettle he should be good on those) and a sky high AC. immunity to demage? no.

also arrmor bonus+shield bonus=percentage(*2 for improved)...

though now that I think about it thats a bit low. at level 20 15+9*2= 48% chance.... thinking now (armor bonus+shield bonus/2)*5=percentage...
lets do math
(16/2)*5=40%... seems good.

Howler Dagger
2011-12-23, 07:32 PM
Races: As with all classes, humans are common as razors. Dwarves with their affinity for heavy armor often become Shields.

Other Classes: Razors are not the best without back up. They work best with another melee warrior, as they can quickly wound and withdraw letting his ally hold the foe till it drops of blood loss. With a focused support caster, the razor can truly dominate. With healing his low HP won't matter, and with a few armor class buffs, he can take on foes face to face. At higher levels, the Razor can truly master tactical movement. With long 5ft steps he can close with foes and let of a full attack. With his Ludicrous speed he can rush across the field with blinding speed.

Role: A Razor excels as a swift skirmisher, and can be pressed into the role of tank.

This does not sound like the Shield to me.

Acidic_Cakes
2011-12-23, 08:33 PM
I notice that you don't actually state armor and weapons proficiency. I'm assuming that it is all armor and shields (including tower shields,) and simple and martial weapons, but this is just me assuming here.

bobthe6th
2011-12-23, 08:41 PM
oop. first was a copy and paste error. this whole class is templated after my Razor, and I forgot to change those bits. fixed.

damn I missed the profs... fixed.

now opinions? this to much? to little?

eftexar
2011-12-23, 11:34 PM
Hmm...
I think that 20 BaB is too much in tandem with the this build and it's class abilities. Because the whole point is to be defensive, and, well, 20 BaB is too much with the other class abilities.
Immunity to magic might be too much on top of everything as well (although I suppose constructs do gain immunity to magic, but absolutes have always bothered me for some reason). Why not grant a special form of SR that applies to all magical abilities and maybe only allow him his full SR if he takes the total defense action.

bobthe6th
2011-12-23, 11:55 PM
I concede the point. it was really getting it to be affective, but as he is focused defensively I will go with medium BAB.

I will leave spell immunity. this is really a type build up class, so I mean for it to get all the features of constructs. and also cause stomping on wizards is always fun, and rarly gets done. the look on the litches face when a Shield walks through his metior swarm un harmed along with 50% of his allies is part of the goal here. Really, I don't mind demasculating casters as a capstone. fighters mooks should have some point for existing. also by that point he already has 20+level SR... but I will put in a note that it doesn't apply to spell resistance:no effects. then you can toss orbs at it, and some acid magic.

erikun
2011-12-24, 12:00 AM
Mithral Mentality(EX)
"Exotic" is not a weight category like Heavy, Medium, or Light. You can have exotic heavy armor, exotic medium armor, and exotic light armor, much like you can have exotic two-handed weapons and exotic light weapons.

Shield Wall of One(EX)
Does this affect all allies in range or just one ally?

Alloyed Will(EX)
You might as well just say that all armor counts as Light armor, because that is what the ability does. For that matter, it does bring up a question... just what do you mean by "counts as light armor" anyways? Does that mean a Shield/Bard can now cast in any armor? Is that really practical, as a Shield 15/Bard 5?


Other than that, the class has no offensive capability until 10th level. Before that, they will likely be using Look At Me every round just to force opponents to attack them, or ignore basically all their class features if they want to attack something.

Note that there are reflex-based Save-or-Sucks out there, which this class is likely to fall into.

Also, reducing the weight category of armor doesn't seem to do anything. You don't reduce the armor penality or spell failure, don't increase the dex bonus, don't increase the movement and don't reduce the weight. Given that the class is apparently designed to take advantage of Mountain Plate or something similar, recommending dexterity as the 2nd highest ability score seem counterintuitive.

eftexar
2011-12-24, 12:14 AM
I have an idea to fix the alloyed will problem.
Maybe instead of just treating armor as a different category, it might be better to change the bonuses and penalties of mithral mentality to be based on how many categories it was reduced.

bobthe6th
2011-12-24, 12:19 AM
oop, thats what I get for skiming races of stone and then ignoring it. though it introduced a whole new type of armor. will change that to mountain plate(yes then you can run around in mithral mountain plate as light arrmor if you want...).

will clear up the fraising. should be all.

it would mean he can now move at 30ft round in battle plate and a steel tower shield, and run at full speed. none of this lowers ASF, though that is a good point I will add that. and if the bard wants to dip that far I won't stop them...

really yeah. they have that trick, and they can counter attack if foes miss them. thats about it. they are a defensive class, and they do it well I think...

yep intended weakness. about the only thing that can stop them, but later they get SR and immunity to deal with it a little. unless they dump points into dex...



Mithral Mentality(EX): At third level a Shield grows more used to his massive armor. He lowers the category of any armor he is wearing(ie. exotic->heavy->medium->light), but only when pertaining to speed penalties. He also raises the maximum dexterity bonus of armor and shields he is wielding by by 2, and lowers the armor check penalty by 4. he also becomes immune to fatigue, exhaustion, and magical sleep affects
you can then make it out of mithral for even higher dex if you want... and a higher then 16 in a secondary stat is rare.

edit: cleared up phrasing. also +2 to max dex is enough. if they get their dex up to 20 they can just make it mithral or go with a breast plate.

eftexar
2011-12-24, 12:23 AM
I believe what he was pointing out is that mithral mentality reduces the penalties for the first weight reduction.
But when alloyed will reduces the armor's category again it doesn't affect the penalties again (at least not as worded).

bobthe6th
2011-12-24, 12:25 AM
yes as it should. this class already gets a free mithral enhancement, they can buy a second if it becomes an issue.

Elfin
2011-12-24, 12:33 AM
So, they're good at getting lots of enemies to attack them. Once they're under fire, how do they last? How do they contribute to combat? A shield is going to be nearly useless in combat, lacking either the maneuvers of a crusader or the feats of a fighter. They're also going to have very little stickiness, because they have no way to effectively defend themselves.

In terms of flavor, how is a shield any different from a knight, a defense-focused fighter, or a crusader? It's very bland at the moment. The class needs something to distinguish it, both in terms of fluff and mechanics. A new class should bring something new to the table: try adding a unique mechanic, something that clearly differentiates the class from any other. What seems to be the central ability, Look At Me, is very similar to the knight's Knight's Challenge. Someone who sees a shield in play should immediately think, "Yes, that's a shield." The "taunt" mechanic is very overused; can you think of a new method of tanking?

The "amulet" mechanic could be expanded upon, but it's a bit clunky as is.

For the class to be functional, it will need a way to contribute meaningfully in combat, a way to survive in combat and manage opponents, unique flavor, and differentiation from similar classes.

bobthe6th
2011-12-24, 01:12 AM
:smallconfused:? d12 hit die, stupid high ac against almost any attack(starting with shield bonus to touch and building to arrmor to touch), counter attack, a long build up of immunities that almost no other class gets, SR, DR, Nat ac, the ability to go pretty SAD with con with a sprinkle of dex... it is about as survivable as I could make it. how could I do it better? fast healing(I admit I was thinking about it hard)?

the fluff is that it is a fighter trying to become a golem... I was thinking that was rather unique...

also, the taunt mechanic is also almost always really bad. knights have a few uses per day, can't affect foes with no int/immunity to mind affecting, and can't hold the enemy for very long if they get them. fighters can't really draw the enemy and at best become a patch of rough terrain. and crusaders get healing, not taunting unless I'm much mistaken.

the only other option is for him to get big... get big... ok thoughts hitting me, got an idea.

edit:ok, new feature in "Size Up"! now he grabs attention by being FREAKING HUGE! at higher levels this also means interacting with massive monsters on a face to face level. it also added durability in the form of temp HP that he can refresh as a free action(basically damage resistance). the HP is modeled after construct bonus HP!

edit2: found a picture!

zegram 33
2011-12-24, 01:06 PM
if your looking for a "signature" move, i have a couple of suggestions?
possibly a once per day or few times per day move that basically works as a large area effect taunt, but either imposes strength and spellcasting penalties, or - attack roll effects, or what have you.
basically, an uber taunt that mkes affected enemies less capable of damaging you.

alternativley, what about a version of your countering ability that means when you are using total defense (or maybe "fighting defensivley" for a bit less unfairness) every attack that is targeted at you allows you the chance to counter it?

maybe even a kind of transformation ability that literally turns you into a golem of scaling type as you level up, but leaves you fatuiged for X rounds after its use?

just chucking idea's out there really

togapika
2011-12-24, 01:40 PM
the fluff is that it is a fighter trying to become a golem... I was thinking that was rather unique...


Perhaps then you should add more flavor text describing said fluff...

bobthe6th
2011-12-24, 02:26 PM
now he has a rather signature ability, size up! trading ac and to hit for grater reach and more hp(size modifiers v.s. being frigging huge). when you see a 10ft high mass of armor with a huge shield and a heavy axe that magic rolls off of like water, will you think it is anything but an Iron golem?

will add more flavor text at some point...

Elfin
2011-12-24, 04:07 PM
The idea of a warrior who's trying to become a golem is pretty neat – maybe that could be reinforced and made the focus of the class's abilities. Perhaps, rather than a base class, you should make this a prestige class – that way you can pick out the best and most interesting abilities and pack them densely together.

As for stickiness, things like AC and HP only go so far (at high levels especially). Mettle is a good ability to put in, but the class is still rather vulnerable to spellcasters. Adding your shield bonus to touch AC is obtainable via a +1 property from MIC (and Blade Ward is also only giving the benefit of a +1 property). Speaking of shields, there seems to be little reason for this class to use a shield as opposed to THFing. If using a shield is meant to be a big aspect of the class, I would revise the class's abilities so that significant bonuses are gained from shield use.

In another thread in Homebrew, someone proposed an Aegis ability that would grant a 30% chance of deflecting injurious spell effects while a shield is held. If you want to go the route of making this a ten-level PrC, that might make a potent and fitting capstone ability.

What I meant about being useless in combat is that the shield has little offensive capability; defense is only useful so long as you're still dishing out damage. Especially if you intend them to be S&Bers, shields are going to be dealing negligible damage. Turtling is a good ability, but it doesn't make up for the lack of maneuvers or bonus feats.

bobthe6th
2011-12-24, 04:45 PM
it already is the focus I think. by level 20 it is a construct in all but name, with all the features of the type. this was in the spirit of the Dread Necromancer, slowly going Lich.

at high levels he is resistant to most anything a spell caster can do. I think web is about the only thing that can really get him down... maybe freedom of movement? nah magic items have it covered by this point. he is vulnerable to area blast, but then again he has SR for that. then again at level 20 he should have a permanacied AMF... ok idea to be added. would SR at say 2 be better? then it could go 10+level(level2)->20+level(level11)->Immunity(level15)->area AMF with selective exception for amulated characters(level20).
that to much?

this is meant to be the S&B base class, much like my Razor was the einhander base class. both are rather weak and require cheese to make work, so I built them both a 20 level class to make them work normally. makeing it a prestige class kinda defeats the purpose.

well... with how little foes should hit him, he should have time to whittle at foes with counter attacks and normal attacks. and a collosal dwarven war axe does 6d8... just saying.

ok Ideas to consider.
would this be to much?
10+level(level2)->20+level(level11)->Immunity(level15)->area AMF with selective exception for amulated characters(level20)

would giving him a scaling miss chance at level 2 be a problem(idea scale would be 5% level caped at 50%)

would a deflection bonus be out of the question at some level(say level6)?

would adding the armor bonus to touch at level 2 be to much?

would a golem style breath weapon make up for the lack of normal offense(maybe being able to inflict one of the status conditions he is immune to at a time)?

Rapidghoul
2011-12-25, 06:57 PM
I like the idea a lot. It's similar to what I'm trying to design in a prestige class for a group of super-defensive warriors (based on the Final Fantasy "Viking" class). A few notes:

Look At Me is very similar to the Goad feat (in Races of Stone and maybe PHBII as well). In the above mentioned prestige class, I required Goad as part of the entry requirements and made abilities that enhanced the power (similar to how Samurai enhances demoralization checks). You might want to check out the feat just for ease of description and mechanics, maybe giving a bonus to such checks equal to the class level.

For Shield Mastery, why not just give them the feat? Same effect, and it would open up the feat-tree. As is, they have to take a redundant feat if they want to access later feats in the line. I get that there's no equivalent to Armor Mastery, but I'm just thinking in terms of flexibility for the class. Maybe add in Uncanny Dodge / Imp. Uncanny Dodge as well, since you're emphasizing a heavy armored tank that can actually use Dex for AC?

Cover thy joints is good but clunky. While I get that the idea is transferring armor and shield bonuses into fortification - and I really like that mechanic - making a scaling effect of fortification would probably be easier. If you want to keep the AC bonus effect, just make it 5% per point of bonus; honestly, if you have such a good piece of armor and shield to get +20 AC bonus, then getting heavy fortification built in isn't that overpowered. Maybe put a max per class level in, or increase the level you get the ability.

Shield Wall of One is a nice ability that keeps in theme, but just trading any amount of AC is a little... big. Putting a cap of 5 (ala Power Attack or Combat Expertise) might be good, or maybe providing the same benefit as the Wall of Steel teamwork benefit:

Wall of Steel
Benefit: As a swift action, any member of the team can lose his shield bonus to AC and grant it to a single adjacent team member instead. This bonus stacks with the recipient's existing shield bonus, if any.
The requirements are for one party member to be proficient with Tower Shields and have BAB 8, and any other members have to have Shield proficiency and BAB 2. You obviously can toss these requirements out, but it's a good starting point for what you're looking to do.

Improved Mettle is very overpowered. I've seen a lot of people homebrew it into classes, but it just doesn't work. The reason Improved Reflexes is acceptable is because it negates damage, not save-or-dies. Fort and Will sometimes refer to damage, but too often the entire effect is negated by a save. Improved Mettle completely rules out the majority or non-damage spells from effecting the Shield. I'd never let a player use a homebrew class that has Improved Mettle if I were DM'ing unless it specifically applied only to damage, allowing the other effects in on failed saves.

bobthe6th
2011-12-25, 08:30 PM
look is simmiler to that feat, but this ability is wis based. this class already has three required stats(con, wis, and dex) adding another pushes MAD to far. looking at the mechanics of it, it isn't broad enough. I wanted to give the class a way to make the arch lord Lich throw his magic at them rather then the party he's protecting. though I will add a note that it counts as goad for prestiege classes and such...

currently doing a massive class overhaul. armor mastery and shield mastery are getting rolled into one(with a cap of one point of each per level), along with a miss chance depending on shield type.

the problem with the doges is that a) he already has a way to deal with sneak attack and b) his flat foot ac is huge. the class is currently a little loaded with features, I don't want to add redundancy to that. no offense mind.

really I should just make it 5% level.

I'm thinking of just making it a moral bonus to ac to everyone within the range wearing an Amulet. something like 1 point per 4 levels?

well... would makeing it half the duration on a failed save, or a half affect be to much? like if say the affect is die, the Shield takes half his total HP in damage and such... but that would be a complex issue. how what would you recomend in its place? I would like to have something so rolling a one dosn.... ok got an Idea, going to add it to the overhaul. tell me what you think.

bobthe6th
2011-12-25, 08:56 PM
massive new over haul. look at its awesome.

eftexar
2011-12-25, 09:09 PM
Defensive Mastery bothers me. No miss chance in D&D can exceed 50%. The reason for this is partially because of the stacking of miss chances I believe (as well as for fairness), though only two types can stack. The maximum miss with both is normally 75% (although miss chances, even combined, don't usually exceed 65% with monsters). I'm not sure what this totals to, but I would guess you could get the miss to between 90% and 95% which is insane.
Shepard doesn't really matter as is. At half DC it isn't much of a boon and probably won't function at all. Reducing the DC by 4 should be enough.
Using spell resistance and energy resistance was a nice change from complete immunity though (though I think 15 or 20 + class levels would be more appropriate for SR).
The class is easily at the strength of a low end tier two class (which is unusual for a melee class) without the capstone.
The capstone in my opinion is completely game-breaking. The benefits it grants are too high for even that level and it grants too many.

bobthe6th
2011-12-25, 10:24 PM
hmm... it does have a lot of utility. should figure were to start loping bits off. I like how it is now, so I think I'll finish that then make an edited down version for T3 play.

well, it is against mindless/immune creatures. they tend to have a low will save...

mirror image, 1 out of 8=1/8=.125= 12.5% chance to hit otherwise known as 87.5% miss chance. but you have a point, will nurf.edit: nurfed. now maxes at 60%...

I also enjoy knocking casters down a noch with SR. they can still do some things, but they need to think of a way to go around his Sr/imunity/AMF... such as grabing one of the parties amulates. I made it a point to make that an achiles heel. get one obvious magic item, and you can tear into his... oh wait yeah he still is a mass of high saves and defenses but still...

eh, it only gets a bit silly as it stacks on top of each other. almost all of it can be done with magic items(seeing the fast healing and sky high nat ac bonus...)
My thoughts was that this was the big leagues now, were rocket tag is flying fast and furious. 15 armor ac+9 shield ac+ 20 natural ac+ 5 deflection+5 weapon... 54ac... ok as I add it up it gets a little silly. but with bab 20+17 strength(4 base + 2.5 level +2.5 book + 4 belt)+5 weapon you have a 42 to hit, so are hitting on a 12... this is level 20 were reside the epic. his competition are level 20 uber chargers and armies of titans... he needs a little. but a good point, what would you recommend nerfing?


just a note, every size up does cost a point of ac and to hit... so if he tries to go on the offensive he is kinda out of luck, losing 9 ac and bringing him back to 45ac... much esier to hit, and with only a +21 to hit he will flail most of the time.

eftexar
2011-12-26, 03:49 PM
Instead of nerfing anything, why not just a create a new special ability for the capstone.
The only idea I have right now is to make it so his armor gets a 'sunder' attempt anytime someone misses him because of AC. Maybe just have it automatically deal your AC (from armor only) in damage.

bobthe6th
2011-12-26, 05:09 PM
because most of the abilities drop off in usefulness at epic+...
10+ nat ac at level 20? not quite enough...
DR 10/-... not quite enough...
fast healing 5... actually I should hack that out. fast healing 10 stacked on massive reistance/DR is a bit to much. and the AMF is to much(steps on mundane along with casters).

would that be better? just nat ac boost+last of the immunities+60 energy resistance+final size up+DR boost?

eftexar
2011-12-26, 06:01 PM
Well if you did that, I would still drop the DR boost to 3/4 his level (DR20 is difficult to overcome for some classes, but 15 is more reasonable).
Then I wouldn't increase the energy resistance and would give him fast healing 5. Most high-end spells (at least the energy ones) deal around 15d6 damage which averages 52 damage and that is before a save is made. Anything over 30 and he might as well be immune to energy damage (which I would change it to instead, if you don't want to reduce it).


edit- if you are worried about epic levels it is better to give an epic progression than to overcompensate ahead of time. You could even create list of epic feats to improve these features or an epic prestige class (I forget what they are actually called, but I remember a 3rd party book that introduced these and the power of each feature depended on the level you took it).

Rapidghoul
2011-12-27, 02:45 AM
I like the new Improved Mettle a lot more, but I wonder what it has to do with Mettle so much as any save? It could probably use a new name (and rewording... don't think you checked that part in your overhaul).

Blood of Clay (going after the Golem I assume) is neat, but FH5 is a little big. I mean, there's an Epic feat that gives FH3, and that has prerequisites on top of level 20+. Also, you want to run a spell check (adamantine).

I understand the concept behind Fuse is to get rid of the limiting factors of armor and shields, but why does making it part of your body do this? I mean, Warforged suffer ACP, ASF, and MDB... and they're certainly 'fused' with their armor. If you're literally fusing with your equipment, it wouldn't just outright negate these effects. Also, you don't have written what would happen if you try to fuse with a new set of armor. Does it replace the old set? Does the old set pop out? Do you suddenly have two sets on? Also, minor note, it feels like Fuse should be a SU not an EX, since this is not really a natural occurrence.

It looks like you're pushing more for the golem-transition set up for the class, and I really like the idea. Becoming quite literally a tank on the battlefield is a very interesting concept for a class; I just see a few things that would be problematic or raise questions if it were implemented into a campaign.

zegram 33
2011-12-27, 03:28 PM
what about the ability to put a penalty on either your attack roll or ac (for 1 round) for fast healing for 1 round, as opposed to a straight fast healing bonus?

so say, a -3 penalty for each fast healing "rank", capped at 1/4 your shield level?
maybe even have it effect amuleted allies as well?
you could have fast healing of say 2 or 3 innatley from blood of clay, then that as well, to give another defensive option?

bobthe6th
2011-12-27, 08:39 PM
Well if you did that, I would still drop the DR boost to 3/4 his level (DR20 is difficult to overcome for some classes, but 15 is more reasonable).
Then I wouldn't increase the energy resistance and would give him fast healing 5. Most high-end spells (at least the energy ones) deal around 15d6 damage which averages 52 damage and that is before a save is made. Anything over 30 and he might as well be immune to energy damage (which I would change it to instead, if you don't want to reduce it).


edit- if you are worried about epic levels it is better to give an epic progression than to overcompensate ahead of time. You could even create list of epic feats to improve these features or an epic prestige class (I forget what they are actually called, but I remember a 3rd party book that introduced these and the power of each feature depended on the level you took it).
changing to DR/addimantine. should stop the problem.

FH is covered by an idea from a later poster.

he is immune to magic... immune. and even before then he is basically immune to straight blast attacks from about level 9. at this level he is dealing with heavy dragon breath(20d10 of a old red dragon, average 100.) He's still going to take a hit if he fails his ref save(20 damage) and if he gets any other energy damage during the rest of the round he will take full damage.


I like the new Improved Mettle a lot more, but I wonder what it has to do with Mettle so much as any save? It could probably use a new name (and rewording... don't think you checked that part in your overhaul).

Blood of Clay (going after the Golem I assume) is neat, but FH5 is a little big. I mean, there's an Epic feat that gives FH3, and that has prerequisites on top of level 20+. Also, you want to run a spell check (adamantine).

I understand the concept behind Fuse is to get rid of the limiting factors of armor and shields, but why does making it part of your body do this? I mean, Warforged suffer ACP, ASF, and MDB... and they're certainly 'fused' with their armor. If you're literally fusing with your equipment, it wouldn't just outright negate these effects. Also, you don't have written what would happen if you try to fuse with a new set of armor. Does it replace the old set? Does the old set pop out? Do you suddenly have two sets on? Also, minor note, it feels like Fuse should be a SU not an EX, since this is not really a natural occurrence.

It looks like you're pushing more for the golem-transition set up for the class, and I really like the idea. Becoming quite literally a tank on the battlefield is a very interesting concept for a class; I just see a few things that would be problematic or raise questions if it were implemented into a campaign.

fixed improved mettel(made it arrmored soul).

thinking about body of clay...

an Iron golem doesn't take any penalties? same concept. armor becomes ornamentation, and smooths to fit the body. also, warforged take penalties for balance reasons. this is the 19th level abilaty of a class... I don't mind letting it beat a 0+ la race's abilaty. I should note that a)it takes up the slot as normal and b)it can be unfused as a free action, one piece per action. it would be SU... but I would like most of his stuff to be EX by level 20...


what about the ability to put a penalty on either your attack roll or ac (for 1 round) for fast healing for 1 round, as opposed to a straight fast healing bonus?

so say, a -3 penalty for each fast healing "rank", capped at 1/4 your shield level?
maybe even have it effect amuleted allies as well?
you could have fast healing of say 2 or 3 innatley from blood of clay, then that as well, to give another defensive option?

this is actually a really good idea. -3ac per rank of FH would be good... and a 1/4 level cap is good. I'm thinking base FH1 boosted to 2 at 20.

Sgt. Cookie
2011-12-28, 02:03 PM
After having a look at this class, I must say that you might as well call him immortal. But this a far cry from what a true tank should be.

This is tough to kill, yes. But this couldn't "tank" to save it's life. In a one on one fight with anything, all the "anything" has to do is dodge the mediocre attacks this thing gives off and slowly whittle down it's HP total.

I would call this a "lump of metal", insanely difficult to cut, but at worst, you will probably stub your toe. I know that increases in size will make more damaging weapons, but so what? Anyone can shoot a gun and hope for the best, but it takes a marksmen to anything consistently.

I understand that you want to keep it's offensive capabilities low, but without them, this class is just a walking pool of defenses and resistances. After all, it is not that useful or fun to be the "Character that takes all the hits because I can't hit anything back".

Here a few recommendations to bring it to true tank status, rather than a glorified meat shield:

Give back this class's full BaB, being able to hit things is important for a tank.

Perhaps give it some form of "shield damage progression", given that it relies on a shield to use most of its abilities, allowing it to deal more damage with a shield bash is pretty obvious.

On that note, giving it improved shield bash as a bonus feat wouldn't go unheard of.

Some form of damage or to-hit bonus on enemies afflicted with "Look at me".

Maybe at later levels, the "Turtleing" ability can be used with an opposed roll, in which you add your AC instead of your BaB.

bobthe6th
2011-12-29, 01:23 AM
For the BAB sugestion... idea to fix the damage problemand the acuracy problem at the same time...

Let turtaling charge up a counter strike? Each miss adds a x2 to damage of the first attack he makes along with a +4 to hit. With that I could see knocking him down to a poor BAB. That to much? To little? With the reach he gets by sizing he could lay down a lot of smack... and slaughter a hydra/dragon.

Instead of a normal shield bash, how about a progrsing natural slam. It costs a penalty to shield ac, and deals reasonable damage(perhapce monk unarmed strike damage?)

How about foes attacking him are flatfooted if they fail another will save?

Not sure... the shield will get a supidly high ac at higher levels. Perhapce an oposed ac check? Or a bonus to hit equal to his foes ac- his ac?


Intresting thoughts none the less.

Rapidghoul
2011-12-29, 01:35 AM
For a class all about becoming the ultimate masters of shields and armor? Let them make touch attacks. They'd know better than anyone the weaknesses of shields and armor and how to negate their effectiveness. Let them make attacks (maybe scaling times per day, maybe by sacrificing your own AC) that ignore shield and armor bonus to AC.

Sgt. Cookie
2011-12-29, 08:13 AM
Let turtaling charge up a counter strike? Each miss adds a x2 to damage of the first attack he makes along with a +4 to hit. With that I could see knocking him down to a poor BAB. That to much? To little? With the reach he gets by sizing he could lay down a lot of smack... and slaughter a hydra/dragon.

For the love of god, do NOT give this guy poor BaB. Giving a front line combatant poor BaB is like giving a child a lighter and telling him he has to toast a loaf of bread with it.

A front line fighter needs medium BaB at MIMIMUM. Poor BaB is for spell casters and commoners. Any way, now that that's over with, this ability seems to be a good idea, albeit a little over powered.

Instead of doubling the damage, which would grow exponentaly, add a static number, such as 2d(Original damage die), the to-hit is fine, but not BaB dropping.


Instead of a normal shield bash, how about a progrsing natural slam. It costs a penalty to shield ac, and deals reasonable damage(perhapce monk unarmed strike damage?)

"A natural slam attack that costs a penalty to AC", that sounds just like a shield bash to me. It's both more obvious, the class is CALLED "The Shield" after all, and it does the same thing you are proposing.

Monk's unarmed damage would work just fine, though you would need to give some information about sizes huge to colossal.


How about foes attacking him are flatfooted if they fail another will save?

Not sure what you mean by that, perhaps you could explane it a little more?


Not sure... the shield will get a supidly high ac at higher levels. Perhapce an oposed ac check? Or a bonus to hit equal to his foes ac- his ac?

The last one seems like a good idea.

bobthe6th
2011-12-29, 09:57 AM
D&D has odd math. 2X2x2=2x3. 2x3x2=2x4
So it would realy add damage again each time. With that, would capping it at x2per five levels be enough? So at level one you can do double damage after a foes wif, and at 20th six times damage after five wifs.


It would be a secoundary natural attack... very different from an off hand weapon. You can add it on to a full attack without incuring TWF penalties. Just full BAB-5 to hit, and deals full strength damage. Maybe make tower a primary slam that takes two hands and deals two sizes more damage.


Make look at me a two part save. First save is to focus on him. If they fail that, they need to roll or be treated as flatfooted for the Shield.

Sgt. Cookie
2011-12-29, 11:47 AM
D&D has odd math. 2X2x2=2x3. 2x3x2=2x4
So it would realy add damage again each time. With that, would capping it at x2per five levels be enough? So at level one you can do double damage after a foes wif, and at 20th six times damage after five wifs.

Apart from the weirdness of the maths, yeah, that would work.


It would be a secoundary natural attack... very different from an off hand weapon. You can add it on to a full attack without incuring TWF penalties. Just full BAB-5 to hit, and deals full strength damage. Maybe make tower a primary slam that takes two hands and deals two sizes more damage.

Ah, doing it that way would be much better. I'd still state that it needs a shield to use, though.

The primary slam attack seems like it would work.


Make look at me a two part save. First save is to focus on him. If they fail that, they need to roll or be treated as flatfooted for the Shield.

I don't see a problem with that. Perhaps at higher levels the goaded enemies are treated as flatfooted for all purposes, not just for the Shield.

bobthe6th
2011-12-29, 01:06 PM
so now... this still to weak? he still needs to get attacked to be effective, but he will quickly be a massive wall of steel... if thats not threatening the DMs a jerk.
also allows for a full tower shield build, with lots o' smashing.

Sgt. Cookie
2011-12-29, 02:12 PM
My advice?

Ditch the mind effecting tag of "Look at me!". Or, grant the Shepard ability at a lower level. Maybe.. three? Mindless creatures are a part of low level encounters, and waiting until level six to affect them? Not good.

Double the effective range of Improved Look At Me, and then again for greater look at me, capping it at 100ft. Change the duration to 1+(The Shield's wisdom bonus) for Improved Look At Me, and 2+(The Shield's wisdom bonus) for Greater Look At Me.

State that the slam attack can be used as the counter attack, would probably be a good idea.

bobthe6th
2011-12-29, 02:27 PM
ok, shifted shepard to be part of the first level abilaty, and removed the impoved version...

now how does it look?

Sgt. Cookie
2011-12-29, 03:56 PM
Look At Me works a lot better now. Cruel DMs might have had the majority of foes be mindless creatures, giving it the ability to taunt all types of foes from level one nips the problem in the bud.

Improved and Greater look at me will certainly be much more useful now. Nice work.

bobthe6th
2011-12-29, 09:03 PM
So... is it to much now? It has a cannon now, and can deal a silly amount of damage after 5 wifs at level 20(30d8+9xstrength mod, with a +20 to hit at level 20 with a tower shield...)

Addmitedly the foe has to miss him 5 times but... that is really easy(60% miss chance and a silly ac) . Additionaly, it is a once per round shot(unless a hydra is being really unlucky).

So that on top of the rather heavy defenses, is it to big?

brolthemighty
2012-01-27, 08:17 PM
A bit of a threadomancy, but not THAT bad.....First, I LOVE the look of this class. It's great to see some shield love out there.

Anyways, here's a few thoughts, and suggestions for edits (spelling and such) to make it look a bit more professional.

Look at Me!
"As a standard action a Sheild..." Shield is spelled wrong.

Skin of Flesh
Maybe Skin of Steel or something? Skin of Flesh sounds a bit redundant. Also, you have "becomes bu another suit of armor. he..." I believe you meant "but" and "He"

Heart of Iron(EX):
You may want to clarify how this interacts with armor that already grants DR. Especially DR/adamantine. Most tanks type builds will look at ways of gaining,
with Adamantine armor being one of the easiest. Would this stack with the DR from adamantine armor, or overwrite it? What about other sources?

Shield Wall of One(EX):
"Shield learns boost all nearby allies defenses. He may grant a +1/4 Shield levels moral bonus all allies within a 5ft radios. this..."

Cleaning up the wording here would work wonders. What defenses are you boosting? Their AC or saves?

improved Shield Ward(EX):
"With a large shield the bonus increases..."

Did you mean heavy shield?

Greater Look at Me!(EX):
"last 2+wisdom modifier rounds rounds."

Rounds rounds?

Greater Size Up(SU):
"category with "Size Up". if he does his natural reach"

Capitalize "If".

Transcendent of the Guardian(EX):
"at twentieth level,"..." increases to 60. his DR from Heart of Iron"...

Capitalize "At" and "His".

"Lastly A Shield can increase their size one category as a free action, and can reduce it to their normal size as a free action. Their equipment sizes with them. each size category above their normal size the Shield grows increases his natural reach 5ft, and he grants 10 temporary HP. this is capped at colossal."

Could you clean up the wording on this? Increase their size an additional category, stacking with Size Up? Or....one size category per round, up to Colossal.....or?

Also, it would be good to clarify whether you get ALL the associated benefits/penalties of going up a size category, or just the ones you list.

Really, that's all I've got. Overall a superb class that does what it looks like it should.

bobthe6th
2012-01-27, 09:04 PM
A bit of a threadomancy, but not THAT bad.....First, I LOVE the look of this class. It's great to see some shield love out there.

thanks! and eh, its a month. six weeks seems the hard limit.



Anyways, here's a few thoughts, and suggestions for edits (spelling and such) to make it look a bit more professional.


always glad for an editor.



Look at Me!
"As a standard action a Sheild..." Shield is spelled wrong.


fixed



Skin of Flesh
Maybe Skin of Steel or something? Skin of Flesh sounds a bit redundant. Also, you have "becomes bu another suit of armor. he..." I believe you meant "but" and "He"


this is specifically a flesh golem esque ability. a theme of the class is that you get an ability for each type of golem(sides swift wight... not going there). also double fixed.



Heart of Iron(EX):
You may want to clarify how this interacts with armor that already grants DR. Especially DR/adamantine. Most tanks type builds will look at ways of gaining,
with Adamantine armor being one of the easiest. Would this stack with the DR from adamantine armor, or overwrite it? What about other sources?


Clarified, highest DR is overrides all other DR.



Shield Wall of One(EX):
"Shield learns boost all nearby allies defenses. He may grant a +1/4 Shield levels moral bonus all allies within a 5ft radios. this..."

Cleaning up the wording here would work wonders. What defenses are you boosting? Their AC or saves?


Clarified, Armor class.



improved Shield Ward(EX):
"With a large shield the bonus increases..."

Did you mean heavy shield?


fixed



Greater Look at Me!(EX):
"last 2+wisdom modifier rounds rounds."

Rounds rounds?


CM/R/R to be precise! thats its rate of acceleration! ok joke aside, fixed.



Greater Size Up(SU):
"category with "Size Up". if he does his natural reach"

Capitalize "If".


fixed



Transcendent of the Guardian(EX):
"at twentieth level,"..." increases to 60. his DR from Heart of Iron"...

Capitalize "At" and "His".


fixed



"Lastly A Shield can increase their size one category as a free action, and can reduce it to their normal size as a free action. Their equipment sizes with them. each size category above their normal size the Shield grows increases his natural reach 5ft, and he grants 10 temporary HP. this is capped at colossal."

Could you clean up the wording on this? Increase their size an additional category, stacking with Size Up? Or....one size category per round, up to Colossal.....or?

Also, it would be good to clarify whether you get ALL the associated benefits/penalties of going up a size category, or just the ones you list.


clarified, in all the size ups.



Really, that's all I've got. Overall a superb class that does what it looks like it should.

thanks again! hope the edits improved it. feel free to make any other suggestions.

brolthemighty
2012-01-27, 09:10 PM
Much better :D Overall a great seeming class, I had just noticed those few things during the read through.

bobthe6th
2012-01-27, 09:11 PM
thanks for bringing up the size though. I had never made it a point to refrance actual size rules... now I want to make an epic progression with colossal+... or heck an epic destiny.

brolthemighty
2012-01-27, 09:14 PM
No problem.

On the look through, forgot on last capitalize on the capstone ability....

"Clay increases to 2. the energy resistance"

You also didn't clarify if the capstone was in addition to your size up! ability, or whether or not it is a seperate ability. Maybe something like....

"Lastly A Shield's Size Up can increase their size one additional category (up to colossal) as a free action, and can reduce it to their original size as a free action. Their equipment sizes with them. The Shield gains all the bonuses and penalties of his new size, and 10 temporary HP per size increased. This overlaps with all versions of size up, though either may be used."

bobthe6th
2012-01-27, 09:24 PM
fixed.

now it is clear it is a separate ability. note that makes the epic sizing a extraordinary not supernatural. AMFs don't make the sizing magically stop, and now you can continue smiting the dragon with an AMF at point blank. also note it does this for most of the class abilities.

brolthemighty
2012-01-27, 09:39 PM
I guess I'm confusing myself or something.

In Greater Size Up, it grants 3 size increases as an SU.

Then in Transcendence, per the wording it grants 1 size increase as an EX AND overlaps the previous. So other than in an AMF, you're better off with the lvl 14 version?

What am I missing here? Or is it that you can go up one category per free action and continue to do so until you're at colossal?

bobthe6th
2012-01-27, 09:45 PM
large, huge, gargantuan, colossal.

yes, you spend a free action and increase in size. you may take as many free actions as you want in a round.

brolthemighty
2012-01-27, 09:51 PM
Lol, yep. I missed it alright. Makes much more sense now :D That's freaking AWESOME!

userpay
2012-01-28, 05:54 PM
I just want to clarify as I'm planning on using this class soon. If I apply and use the Animated enchantment to my shield does that prevent me from using any class features such as Smash?

bobthe6th
2012-01-28, 07:14 PM
that is correct.

bobthe6th
2012-06-17, 10:20 PM
legal self necromancy and all...

Just to ask a question, should I give an infusion progression and increased skill points? The class is really T4(Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.) and I want it to be T3(Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.)

I figure limited infusions and like 4-6+int skills would give more out of combat options, and contribute to the flavor of being a warrior that studies and emulates constructs. the actual infusions would be limited to mostly utillaty and some construct specific infusions, and the skill list would add disable device, open lock, knowledge(architecture and engineering), knowledge(arcane), knowledge(history), and spell craft... that seem sane?

Techwarrior
2012-06-17, 11:58 PM
The rogue skills are fine if you're wanting a mechanic-y feel to it. I suggest only giving it 4+ per level. Infusions, if given, VERY, lightly would also be alright. If you do that, I suggest putting Repair X Damage and giving him an ability that lets him heal himself.

bobthe6th
2012-06-18, 09:10 AM
just about my thoughts on the infusions...
yeah it would be a very parsed down list, probably just the healing, Magic weapon/armor, some anti construct abilaties, and some general utilaty.
so a list like
level1:
Identify
Inflict light damage
Magic vestments
Magic weapon
Repair light damage
Weapon augmentation, personal(locked on defending or metaline)
level 2:
Inflict moderate damage
Repair moderate damage
level 3:
Inflict serious damage
Repair serious damage
Greater magic weapon
level 4:
Inflict critical damage
Repair critical damage
Minor creation
Rusting grasp
level 5:
Fabricate
Major creation
level 6:
Disable construct
Total repair

WarDragon
2012-07-02, 03:28 PM
Broken beyond recovery. Scrap it and start over.

Aluroon
2012-07-02, 03:36 PM
Broken beyond recovery. Scrap it and start over.

QFT.

How is any other melee character supposed to compete with this class in any way shape or form, especially at high levels?

And don't tell me all of his abilities are defensive when his very first listed ability grants him his choice of non-action taking counterattacks or a large bonus on attacks and a multiplier on all damage for his attacks next round.

By 20th level this character is virtually impossible to kill, forces enemies to attack him, and is dealing x4 damage with a +12 bonus on attack rolls on his counterattack (using a shield bash that deals base damage of... 5d6. What the hell? 5d6? Did you even consult the convenient PHB chart on how weapon damage increases with size?

Moving on though, basically base damage that is much better than the base damage of any fighter weapon.

bobthe6th
2012-07-02, 04:26 PM
*blink* *blink*
wow ok... that was unexpected...
point by point.



How is any other melee character supposed to compete with this class in any way shape or form, especially at high levels?


Be a martial initiator? be a cleric? be a uber charger?



And don't tell me all of his abilities are defensive when his very first listed ability grants him his choice of non-action taking counterattacks or a large bonus on attacks and a multiplier on all damage for his attacks next round.


counter point


this doubles the damage of the next blow and grants a +4 bonus to hit on his next attack.


next attack, not rest of round. also, medium BAB...



By 20th level this character is virtually impossible to kill, forces enemies to attack him, and is dealing x4 damage with a +12 bonus on attack rolls on his counterattack (using a shield bash that deals base damage of... 5d6. What the hell? 5d6? Did you even consult the convenient PHB chart on how weapon damage increases with size?


first off... just no. it is hard to kill like a lot of PCs, but not impossible. the ac is slightly above the normal cap of pc ac. the 15 natural is the only really big thing I can recall, pushing max ac in full plate and with a tower shield to like 5 deflection+5 dex(estimate)+9 shield+ 13 full plate + 20 natural=53... respectable but not immposible. at full fighting size(colossal) it's 49 do to size modifiers. if you have a +5 sword it could go up to 58/54 respectivly, but with full regen it's more like 46/42...
and after that he has DR 20/adimantine (reasonable to asume it will be overcome), and maybe 40 damage resistance, 60 energy resistance, magic imunity and all golem immunities and weaknesses.

a reasonable monster(lets say a titan) is swinging at +37, so at full ac he gets a hit on a 11+/7+... and gets four attacks... all adimantine...

when gargantuan sized it's 5d6, giving a -3 to ac and to hit... not a great penalty but it is there. also, yes I did, did you? that is how damage scales, the base weapon damage just also scaled.
and if at 20 you can't do better then 20d6+4xstr mod or 20d8+6xstr mod as one melee attack as a melee character, I suggest you go home.



Moving on though, basically base damage that is much better than the base damage of any fighter weapon.


oh gosh, it's better then a fighter? that is part of intent... but once again, this is supposed to hang with martial initiators, so I am not that worried...

any thing else you care to rage about? that it has two good saves? that it can actually do the job of a tank? that it is better then a monk?

Aluroon
2012-07-02, 05:08 PM
Total benefits gained over 20 levels
Counterattack (stack up to +12 to attack, x4 damage, all other attacks provoke free AoOs)
Mettle
Improved Evasion
Base Saves 12/10/12
Energy Resistance 60 (all elements)
Immunity to stunning, massive damage, energy drain, ability damage/drain, all poisons, all forms of disease, and death affects, paralysis, nonlethal damage, all necromancy effects
Spell Immunity (I assume by this you mean as a golem, so anything that allows SR, not that it matters since you gave SR 30 + class level 9 levels before)
+20 natural armor (stacks with amulet)
+5 deflection (replaces need for ring)
DR 20 + 1/4th armor or shield bonus (likely 5-6) – total of 25
All items are immune to sundering
Any armor has no penalties
Fast Healing
Does not fail saves on a natural 1
100% (or better) fortification
Grow to colossal as a free action (+32 strength (+16 to hit and damage), +16 con (+160 hit points), +5 natural armor, -8 armor and attack) – and shrink as a free action
All attacks have a 60% miss chance

Wow. Lets see how some of these apply to a defense line.

Sample AC/Hp lines (While Colossal)
AC 64, touch 42, flat-footed 59
(+13 armor [+5 full plate], +9 shield [+5 tower shield], +5 deflection, +30 natural, +5 Dex [your number], -8 size), DR 25/adamantine, 60% miss chance
hp 375 + 40 temp (20d12 + 240) Fast Healing 2
Immune critical hits, stunning, massive damage, energy drain, ability damage/drain, all poisons, all forms of disease, and death affects, paralysis, nonlethal damage, all necromancy effects
Resist acid 60, cold 60, electricity 60, fire 60, sonic 60
Special Defenses does not fail saves on natural 1, improved evasion, mettle

(this assumes a starting Con of 12 (+6 item) and no further increases)

Neither a balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor), nor a pit fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend), nor a solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar), nor a titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) can hit you on anything but a natural 20 (and even then only because they auto-hit on a 20). Any of them but a titan (who so luckily carries an adamantine weapon) is doing single digit damage after DR (unless they full power attack, in which case they do maybe 30 on a good roll). Any of these monsters is supposed to be an existential threat to a Shield20 if caught alone, yet the only one I could conceivably see defeating him is a solar using some miracle or wish abuse (with a DM that was willing to work with that).

Oh, but wait, hold on. A tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) can actually hit you! Unfortunately it too only does single digit damage with its best weapon (the rest do no damage).

I guess they can always fall back on their SLA's to charm you or something... oh wait. You have complete magical immunity. Maybe they can drop you with energy drain or poison or something? Wait, immune to those too.

That's a problem. When there isn't a single CR 20 SRD monster that can realistically hurt your PC (much less when you can compel them to attack you, and only you), you have an unbalanced class. Sorry to break it to you bro.

bobthe6th
2012-07-02, 06:49 PM
and that, that is an argumant I can respond to. love it when people give actual stats.


Mettle
Improved Evasion
[/quote]
Base Saves 12/10/12



? unless you mean the shield ward ability, which only applies against aoe stuff...

[quote]
Immunity to stunning, massive damage, energy drain, ability damage/drain, all poisons, all forms of disease, and death affects, paralysis, nonlethal damage, all necromancy effects


being a golem is nice, though it shares the bolded immunities with the undead type... accessible with a +1 LA template...


Spell Immunity (I assume by this you mean as a golem, so anything that allows SR, not that it matters since you gave SR 30 + class level 9 levels before)



+20 natural armor (stacks with amulet)


will make it non stacking... that is ridicules

+5 deflection (replaces need for ring)



DR 20 + 1/4th armor or shield bonus (likely 5-6) – total of 25


once again /adimantine...



Fast Healing


2-6 depending on ac...



Grow to colossal as a free action (+32 strength (+16 to hit and damage), +16 con (+160 hit points), +5 natural armor, -8 armor and attack) – and shrink as a free action


will make it clear it dosn't get a sizing stat boost...

rest of response to come after fireworks.

Aluroon
2012-07-02, 08:07 PM
being a golem is nice, though it shares the bolded immunities with the undead type... accessible with a +1 LA template...

This is a poor argument to make under any circumstance, and an especially poor one to make in this instance. To address the first point first, X does Y so Z is balanced doesn't work very well with specifics. Lloth touched is a +1 template. Feral is a +1 template. Both are vastly more powerful than any other +1 template I can think of, and are more examples of bad design than of design to be emulated. Too many people on this forum seem to think otherwise. The same is true of class design, regardless of whether we are talking about melee or caster classes.

Dweomerkeeper is a badly designed prestige class, so is Incantatarix, so is Frenzied Berserker. They give too much, cost too little, and are overall just too damn good compared to base classes - which is where you should measure your balance standard off of. Basically the point I'm getting at is that saying "It's balanced against this one unbalanced thing" doesn't make what you are putting forth balanced. It just makes it equally unbalanced.

Speaking more specifically, referencing Undead immunities as worth (or available with) LA +1 isn't really fair especially when talking about a tanking class. Immunities are by far the best pickup from undead, and it's a type that carries significant penalties - like the loss of a constitution score (incidentally, so does the construct type).

bobthe6th
2012-07-02, 09:22 PM
This is a poor argument to make under any circumstance, and an especially poor one to make in this instance. To address the first point first, X does Y so Z is balanced doesn't work very well with specifics. Lloth touched is a +1 template. Feral is a +1 template. Both are vastly more powerful than any other +1 template I can think of, and are more examples of bad design than of design to be emulated. Too many people on this forum seem to think otherwise. The same is true of class design, regardless of whether we are talking about melee or caster classes.

Dweomerkeeper is a badly designed prestige class, so is Incantatarix, so is Frenzied Berserker. They give too much, cost too little, and are overall just too damn good compared to base classes - which is where you should measure your balance standard off of. Basically the point I'm getting at is that saying "It's balanced against this one unbalanced thing" doesn't make what you are putting forth balanced. It just makes it equally unbalanced.

Speaking more specifically, referencing Undead immunities as worth (or available with) LA +1 isn't really fair especially when talking about a tanking class. Immunities are by far the best pickup from undead, and it's a type that carries significant penalties - like the loss of a constitution score (incidentally, so does the construct type).

and gaining them gradually over a twenty level base class, the last of which is gained fifteenth...

your focusing a bit on the level twenty potential, which is when a lot of the bigest things come online... care to look at the level 1, 5, 10, and 15 potential?

137ben
2012-07-06, 06:38 PM
This is a poor argument to make under any circumstance, and an especially poor one to make in this instance. To address the first point first, X does Y so Z is balanced doesn't work very well with specifics. Lloth touched is a +1 template. Feral is a +1 template. Both are vastly more powerful than any other +1 template I can think of, and are more examples of bad design than of design to be emulated. Too many people on this forum seem to think otherwise. The same is true of class design, regardless of whether we are talking about melee or caster classes.

Dweomerkeeper is a badly designed prestige class, so is Incantatarix, so is Frenzied Berserker. They give too much, cost too little, and are overall just too damn good compared to base classes - which is where you should measure your balance standard off of. Basically the point I'm getting at is that saying "It's balanced against this one unbalanced thing" doesn't make what you are putting forth balanced. It just makes it equally unbalanced.

Speaking more specifically, referencing Undead immunities as worth (or available with) LA +1 isn't really fair especially when talking about a tanking class. Immunities are by far the best pickup from undead, and it's a type that carries significant penalties - like the loss of a constitution score (incidentally, so does the construct type).
You are making a pretty tough case. You are basically saying that a melee tank which largely consists of number boosts and immunities is overpowered. First, it only gains full golem immunities at 20th level. By that point, there are about 2390847 other ways to get the same immunities.

bobthe6th
2012-07-31, 11:53 PM
got thinking about this again...
added a note to note that you don't get str and con bonuses...
thinking about giving a bonus to attack to foes affected by look at me, and removing the bonus hp for size up. also, would making the nat ac boost a smaller progression lower ac into sane range?

bobthe6th
2012-08-29, 12:28 AM
bumping for more PEACH... anyone else want to join the argument?

Yakk
2012-08-29, 02:01 PM
Instead of DR, how about a fountain of temporary HP?

The abilities have too many "if shield X, result Y" type abilities.


Cover thy Joints(EX): At fifth level a Shield has so much armor onNarrative mechanics. Bad designer, no cookie. And the rest of the power? Insane percentage math with little payoff.

Look at Me: Instead of an extraordiary ability to affect the mind of mindless creatures, have you thought about poaching from 4e? Between the battlemind and the fighter, there are "you are mine, and if you ignore me, you are doomed" mechanics aplenty.

...

Might I suggest that you tie a bunch of abilities to the shield AC bonus.

Then, have the shield have an (ex) ability to grant enhancement bonuses to shields. Like, +1 at level 1, and +2 at every odd level afterwards -- so by level 19, your shield has a +10 enhancement bonus just for being in your hands.

So your "shield bonus to AC" now varies from +11 to +14 at level 20, with tower shields having a higher value.

...

I'd rename the class to be something other than Shield. Because the Shield's use of shields results in tongue twisters in the rules. :) Guardian, or Shield Guardian?

...

Now, we could really push the "becoming one with your weapons" schzick. And start it off at level 1. At level 1, you can "attune" armor and shields, granting some bonuses. At higher levels, you can "fuse" armor and shields to you, allowing a higher (or different) bonus.

Maybe a phased system:
1-4: Attune shields
5-8: Attune armor
9-12: Fuse shields
13-16: Fuse armor
17-20: Become construct

Or, we could ramp it up:
1: Attune shields&armor
5: Fuse armor
10: Fuse shields
15: Become construct

which gives you multiple levels to walk around as a golem.

bobthe6th
2012-08-30, 08:49 PM
Instead of DR, how about a fountain of temporary HP?


that... is probably a better idea. means enough enamies can bring it down for a good amount of work.



The abilities have too many "if shield X, result Y" type abilities.


but, I do want to make them not THF all the time... guess that is more a thing for a small system fix. At the same time, a lot of the abilities I do that to would be funky without them. how would you change that?



Narrative mechanics. Bad designer, no cookie. And the rest of the power? Insane percentage math with little payoff.


fine, I will just make the 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% immunities their own thing.



Look at Me: Instead of an extraordiary ability to affect the mind of mindless creatures, have you thought about poaching from 4e? Between the battlemind and the fighter, there are "you are mine, and if you ignore me, you are doomed" mechanics aplenty.


I am actualy a mite cheap, so I have yet to front the money for the 4e books... So I don't know of said mechanics. This just does what it needs to, make tanking actually work.



Might I suggest that you tie a bunch of abilities to the shield AC bonus.


? first you say to many tied into shields, then you tie them in more?



Then, have the shield have an (ex) ability to grant enhancement bonuses to shields. Like, +1 at level 1, and +2 at every odd level afterwards -- so by level 19, your shield has a +10 enhancement bonus just for being in your hands.


blows the standard max enhancement of 5 out of the water...



So your "shield bonus to AC" now varies from +11 to +14 at level 20, with tower shields having a higher value.


that is... again really high for ac.

...



I'd rename the class to be something other than Shield. Because the Shield's use of shields results in tongue twisters in the rules. :) Guardian, or Shield Guardian?


well, the full name is disciple of the shield. maybe armorer?
...



Now, we could really push the "becoming one with your weapons" schzick. And start it off at level 1. At level 1, you can "attune" armor and shields, granting some bonuses. At higher levels, you can "fuse" armor and shields to you, allowing a higher (or different) bonus.

Maybe a phased system:
1-4: Attune shields
5-8: Attune armor
9-12: Fuse shields
13-16: Fuse armor
17-20: Become construct

Or, we could ramp it up:
1: Attune shields&armor
5: Fuse armor
10: Fuse shields
15: Become construct

which gives you multiple levels to walk around as a golem.

hmm... not sure what you mean here

Zman
2012-12-05, 09:54 PM
he has a D12 HD, Heavy DR, SR/magic immunity, immunity to almost every major effect(and with mettle/improved mettle he should be good on those) and a sky high AC. immunity to demage? no.

This seems to be a bit much.

The class has many problems most notable being very dip friendly, a single level granting an immediate reposte against attackers that miss. SR20+ Class Level at level 7 is vastly overpowered. 11/10 + Class level is much more balanced, or outright SR20. As written offers virtual magic immunity vs same leveled casters at lvl7. The improved SR, 30+Class level at level 11 is poorly thought through an vastly overpowered. Straight SR30 would require an equal leveled caster to roll a 19 to equal, being 90% immune to equal level magic is broken. As written it cannot be penetrated by a lvl 20 Mage.

Outright magic immunity at lvl15 is vastly overpowered. It should be a capstone ability and should have no ability to be lowered.

I haven't even began to consider the abuses for AC.

This build creates a Magic immune AC monster and is far from balanced or playable in anything but a very high optimization game, and even then it will break the game. Though, based upon the entire build, balance wasn't a goal.

bobthe6th
2012-12-05, 10:09 PM
Yeah, that was the thing. I started just building in what it needed to do the job of "tank", and did that. what came out was a monster, which I need to pare back. Still, except for the stupid SR(but, you know, **** magic. It breaks the game all over the place.), counter attack, and improved evasion stuff, I don't see this being that much outside what can be done with magic items and cheap spells.

I do need to give this an overhaul, working back to more active abilities. Still, I see this like the battle lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202371). It can do what it is supposed to do(take hits, keep focus, do some DPS). It may not be balanced, but it is what it is.

An overhaul needs to wait until I get some time off from school, but it will come.

As for the game that brought you to this, I just want to see if this does what it is supposed to do. If he makes it way over his ECL with little to no OP(I took all of ten minutes making the character I submitted, and he has +5 armor/shield, +3 shield spikes, and a cloak of resistance +3), I will be happy.

Zman
2012-12-05, 10:31 PM
I don't doubt it will vastly outperform any medium op tank build.

I'd focus on three main things

1. Reduce the Magic Defense. SR20 at lvl7, SR25 at lvl11, SR30 at lvl15, Involuntary Magic Immunity at lvl20.
2. Streamline the bonuses, it is rather confusing currently.
3. Trim the base chassis down, a little give somewhere.

bobthe6th
2012-12-05, 10:44 PM
eh I doubt it (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=479677)

But still, this is a bit OP.

1. No, non #+lvl SR is bad desine, as it quickly becomes obsolete. I think the progression will be more like 5+lvl, 10+lvl, 15+level, 20+level, and flat imunity at 20.
2. That is the plan... right now the bonuses are just spread out the general bonuses needed to not get hit, or to tank damage.

3. See, that is the thing. I tried to give no dead levels, as those tend to be irritating. What I need to do is strip out some of the more basic +bonus items, and give creation feats and the ability to craft. that would let me strip down a lot of the +ac items out, and clean it up a bit.

In general, I just need a free couple days to sit down and revise the sucker.

toapat
2012-12-05, 11:00 PM
Certainly a good class for defense, but i prefer my Guardian Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13209484#post13209484) for total defense, if only because they dont become invincible.

Zman
2012-12-05, 11:13 PM
He needs a belt of healing.

I believe my method of SR scales more effectively. If you are using Sar X + lvl it shouldn't scale so quickly, SR20+ lvl makes you 95% resistant to magic. Extremely powerful and vastly higher than any basic SR out their. I wouldn't go much higher than 15+ lvl, as that is phenomenal SR.

bobthe6th
2012-12-05, 11:39 PM
was to lazy to dig out my copy of MIC trying to stay SRD compliant.

except casters will grab caster level boosters against SR... and a lot of caster threats will be higher level. and SR 15+level is coming online at like 12th level? then full SR 20 is at 16? if I give the SR in a 4 and every fourth level progression, which may or may not happen...
I guess I just like SR a bit higher then you do.