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Sunken Valley
2012-01-01, 11:56 AM
No this is not about Downey Jr's and Ritchie's movie. This is about the BBC show, starring Benedict Cumberbatch as Holmes, Martin Freeman as Watson and written by Stephen Moffat, Mark Gattis and Stephen Thompson of Doctor Who fame.

It's coming on TV tonight at 8:10pm GMT then weekly for 2 more weeks. Who like's this?

Eakin
2012-01-01, 12:34 PM
I saw this on Netflix back in October, loved it! Is this a second series or the original three episodes being re-aired?

Sunken Valley
2012-01-01, 12:43 PM
I saw this on Netflix back in October, loved it! Is this a second series or the original three episodes being re-aired?

Second Series.

Tonight's ep is called "Scandle at Belgravia" (scandle at Bohemia). Written by Stephen Moffat (who did last year's premier and is the head writer of Doctor Who), it stars Laura Pulver as Irene Adler.

Next week it's "The Hounds of Baskerville" (We all know which book this is). Written by Mark Gattis (who did the final ep so far), Baskerville is a millitary lab.

Finally, it's "Richenbach Fall" (final problem). Written by Stephen Thompson (writer of last year's middle ep and is known for being the worst writer of Doctor Who ever), welcomes Moriarty's return to the show (although he's getting a cameo in ep 1).

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-01-01, 01:26 PM
Urgh, I have to wait until BBC Canada picks it up. Which probably won't be for a month. Still, LOVED the first ones.

Jahkaivah
2012-01-01, 01:33 PM
This thread interests me as it concerns a show that interests me.

Dienekes
2012-01-01, 03:46 PM
Like the first three more than Doctor Who. I don't know if BBCA will pick it up, I'm a little worried about Thompson getting the season finale for it since I felt his contribution was weakest last season. Though I wouldn't call him the worst Who writer ever. Who wrote Love & Monsters again?

Artemis97
2012-01-01, 04:00 PM
I know I've read that the second season was ebing picked up in the US, but I don't know if it's going to be on BBCA, because the first season played on PBS' Masterpiece Mystery. Looking at PBS' schedule, there are 3 episodes of Sherlock set to air on January 15, 22, and 29 at 10pm. I can't see if they're new or old episodes, though. Will do some more digging. I definately want to catch these.

Edit: Further investigation is showing a May 6th airing on PBS for the new season.

Dienekes
2012-01-01, 04:25 PM
Edit: Further investigation is showing a May 6th airing on PBS for the new season.

Ughh. Fine I'll be back to this thread in 5 months.

factotum
2012-01-01, 05:01 PM
Just watched it, and I thought it was awesome! Cumberbatch is just incredible as Holmes, although I wish they'd given Dr. Watson a bit more to do--yes, I realise the name of the show is "Sherlock", but Martin Freeman definitely got a bit more screen time in the first series.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-01, 05:17 PM
Was going to do a full review on this. Not gonna bother. 10/10. I see this is where the Moffat I know and love is.

Twoquestions:
Was it Irene who rang Moriarty to spare Holmes? The editing made it seem so but nothing else in the episode was "big" enough to make Moriarty react like that?

Why did Irene give Holmes the phone if she wasn't dead? Irene would know Holmes would know she wasn't.

Selrahc
2012-01-01, 05:30 PM
Was going to do a full review on this. Not gonna bother. 10/10. I see this is where the Moffat I know and love is.

Twoquestions:
Was it Irene who rang Moriarty to spare Holmes? The editing made it seem so but nothing else in the episode was "big" enough to make Moriarty react like that?

Why did Irene give Holmes the phone if she wasn't dead? Irene would know Holmes would know she wasn't.


My impression:
The entire thing was a long con to get Sherlock to decode the message. Irene rang Moriaty and told him that she'd acquired an important but indecipherable coded mail, that only the great Sherlock Holmes could work out.

Possibly she didn't mention Sherlock, just the indecipherable code but Moriaty knew to put her onto Sherlock, after which the game commenced.

Then the "Blackmail" with the royals was to bait Mycroft into sending Sherlock to meet her.

Aidan305
2012-01-01, 05:40 PM
Just finished watching the episode, felt it was excellent.


Though it was a little obvious that Adler was still alive by the end of it. After all, Mycroft knows Sherlock and Watson well enough to realise which lie John will tell him and which Holmes will read off him. A good play by him, but not good enough?

And now I'll head to Holmes's website and John's blog to see if there's anything new on them.

Iruka
2012-01-01, 08:16 PM
I only saw the pilot of the first series, but I liked it a lot. Now I hope there will be some reruns in german television so I can catch the others, too. :smallsmile:

Weezer
2012-01-01, 09:42 PM
Just finished it up, it was pretty much perfect. And Adler? So damn sexy. And portrayed as an excellent counterpoint to Holmes in a number of ways. My only quibble is this, and it's a minor one that only matters if you've read the original story.

Alder was supposed to win in the end, he was the only person to ever best Holmes, which is one of the reasons she was so special to him. It would have been nice if Holmes had been shown to be truly fallible in the end, and been completely beaten, rather than simply partially beaten. Oh well.

Serpentine
2012-01-01, 10:39 PM
Benedict Cumberbatch is possibly the most English name currently in existence. And my goodness he's pretty.

Can't wait to see the new series!

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-01-02, 12:06 AM
Benedict Cumberbatch is possibly the most English name currently in existence. And my goodness he's pretty.

Can't wait to see the new series!

Benedict Cumberbatch MUST be the most English name ever.
And apparently I look like him? I don't see it.

Greenish
2012-01-02, 12:16 AM
YLE picked up the first series (which was awesome). Here's hoping they get the new one too.

factotum
2012-01-02, 03:35 AM
As always with these things, thinking about the plot for a while afterwards does reveal to me a somewhat glaring plot hole (IMHO):


This coded message had supposedly been on the phone for months before Sherlock saw it, so even if he correctly identified it as the seating plan for a 747, how on earth could he know that the flight leaving tomorrow is the one it referred to? Not to mention the massive coincidence that Irene came back and got him to decode it just then--24 hours later would have been too late!

Sunken Valley
2012-01-02, 04:42 AM
Another question

The plane was supposed to "save the world". How would it do so? Nobody would know that anything abnormal had happened. And how could the terrorists not know the plane would be full of dead people? Bombs aren't planted that far in advance.

Also, This ep was called "Scandle at Belgravia" which is a play on "Scandle at Bohemia". Whilst the show is an accurate re-imaging and Scandle's are involved, where does Belgravia come in? Bohemia was in the book, why no Belgravia?

Aidan305
2012-01-02, 07:59 AM
Also, This ep was called "Scandle at Belgravia" which is a play on "Scandle at Bohemia". Whilst the show is an accurate re-imaging and Scandle's are involved, where does Belgravia come in? Bohemia was in the book, why no Belgravia?

Belgravia was the area of London where Adler lived.

Brother Oni
2012-01-02, 08:30 AM
As always with these things, thinking about the plot for a while afterwards does reveal to me a somewhat glaring plot hole (IMHO):


This coded message had supposedly been on the phone for months before Sherlock saw it, so even if he correctly identified it as the seating plan for a 747, how on earth could he know that the flight leaving tomorrow is the one it referred to? Not to mention the massive coincidence that Irene came back and got him to decode it just then--24 hours later would have been too late!


Watching the episode again on iplayer, he explains all his reasoning:


Sherlock does make the assumption that the crisis is imminent, since increased pressure had been recently put onto finding Irene.

He also mentions that there's no row 13, thus eliminating several less superstitious airlines, assumption of the locality of the information (although one of the world's most busiest airports isn't too much of a stretch).

I agree that knowing that's a specific plane is a bit of a stretch, however in my experience, flight numbers are often recycled, and since collecting enough dead bodies covertly (somewhere between 400-500 depending on the exact type of 747) is likely to take some time, it makes sense that the code is going to be around for months.

With regard to the timing, I do agree that it's a bit coincidental, but you need some authorial fiat to get a story going.



Another question

The plane was supposed to "save the world". How would it do so? Nobody would know that anything abnormal had happened. And how could the terrorists not know the plane would be full of dead people? Bombs aren't planted that far in advance.



The 'save the world' part is probably exaggeration on the part of the civil servant who was trying to impress Irene, but letting a 747 explode in the current political climate wouldn't be good, to put it lightly.

There's no information on how the terrorists planned to get the bomb onto the aircraft (obviously not as passengers), but it was mentioned that the US and UK Governments knew that a bomb was going to be planted, but were intending to let it explode anyway.

Suppose the reason how they knew the bomb was going to be planted, was that an agent had infiltrated the terrorist cell and manipulated them into planting the bomb, ostensibly for some sort of political gain (further pressure on the rest of the government to enact a harsher security bill/measure)?
The bomb planting is easy - the mole volunteers to do it and just gives it over to his handlers.

You get all the public outrage at the bombing, all the finger pointing at intelligence 'failures', but no lawsuits from the victim's relatives.
Terrorists get swept up in the resulting security crackdown (which should be a piece of cake since the mole knows where they all are), more funding for the various intelligence services and nobody really died, so it's a win situation all round for the 'good guys'.

You can obviously see why security leaks of this plan would be an issue - Moriaty bluffed Mycroft with a fragment of information which was enough to derail the entire thing.



My turn for questions, or rather little nitpicks:


I wasn't aware that qualified doctors could join anything other than the RAMC, especially if they're going in as an army doctor, so Watson being part of the 5th Northumberland Fusiliers was a bit surprising.

However given that the 5th was amalgamated into the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers back in 1968, I suspect that they didn't research it too carefully. :smalltongue:

Irene's measurements look right on the money though. :smalltongue:

alwaysowls
2012-01-03, 03:24 AM
There were parts of the episode that were fantastic, and there were parts that were... less so.

I wish they hadn't given Moffat the episode with Irene Adler. Much respect for the guy, but writing women is not his forte. And, well...

...it kind of pisses me off that this supposedly empowered, brilliant, confident woman is ultimately reduced to a damsel in distress to be rescued by Sherlock. She begins the episode as a lesbian who flirts with Sherlock and pretends to fall for him in order to manipulate him. But Sherlock's sexy, sexy brain somehow manages to turn her straight and make her actually fall in love, and in the end she's left begging for mercy. Finally, she finds herself imprisoned, seconds from being beheaded, until her beloved comes to the rescue, to her tearful relief.

What the hell. Seriously. What the hell.

I'm also rather annoyed by...

...the absolute cop-out resolution to last season's cliffhanger.

OMG! Moriarty has snipers ready to take out Sherlock and John! And Sherlock's levelling his own gun at the bomb lying between them, ready to blow all three of them to hell! [What could possibly happen next?

What's that? Oh, never mind. Moriarty's got a phone call, guess we'll have to reschedule this dramatic stand-off for the next end-of-season cliffhanger.

You can call off the snipers, by the way. Yeah, I know Moriarty said he wasn't going to let the two of them live, but you know him, he's so ~crazy~.

Sorry? You wanted some kind of emotional resolution? uhhh... HERE! HAVE A RAPID-FIRE MONTAGE OF DETECTIVE CASES!

Other than that, it was a good episode. But the way they handled Irene in particular really pisses me off.

Androgeus
2012-01-03, 07:11 AM
She begins the episode as a lesbian.


Given her profession I would have though she was bisexual.

Brother Oni
2012-01-03, 07:43 AM
There were parts of the episode that were fantastic, and there were parts that were... less so.

I wish they hadn't given Moffat the episode with Irene Adler. Much respect for the guy, but writing women is not his forte. And, well...

...it kind of pisses me off that this supposedly empowered, brilliant, confident woman is ultimately reduced to a damsel in distress to be rescued by Sherlock. She begins the episode as a lesbian who flirts with Sherlock and pretends to fall for him in order to manipulate him. But Sherlock's sexy, sexy brain somehow manages to turn her straight and make her actually fall in love, and in the end she's left begging for mercy. Finally, she finds herself imprisoned, seconds from being beheaded, until her beloved comes to the rescue, to her tearful relief.

What the hell. Seriously. What the hell.


I believe:


that being captured by a terrorist cell and being prepared for execution by beheading is so far out of her comfort zone and any frame of reference she might have, that being reduced to tearful relief is more than acceptable.

She's a dominatrix, not an international secret agent. The fact that she kept it together enough to send a text message (seriously, you try retaining fine motor control in a situation like that) shows she has some strength of character.



I'm also rather annoyed by...

...the absolute cop-out resolution to last season's cliffhanger.

OMG! Moriarty has snipers ready to take out Sherlock and John! And Sherlock's levelling his own gun at the bomb lying between them, ready to blow all three of them to hell! [What could possibly happen next?




Absolutely nothing would happen. That was plastic explosive in the vest, which needs high temperature and a powerful shock in order to explode. Shooting it with a gun (unless the gunshot was very lucky and triggered the detonator) wouldn't do anything to it.

Was it a complete cop-out? I'd say mostly, but as others have mentioned, it was probably Irene who saved their Holmes and Watson, so at least it's an explainable cop-out.

In any case, Moriaty and Holmes can't kill each other until the Reichenbach Falls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichenbach_Falls). :smalltongue:

factotum
2012-01-03, 07:55 AM
She begins the episode as a lesbian who flirts with Sherlock and pretends to fall for him in order to manipulate him. But Sherlock's sexy, sexy brain somehow manages to turn her straight

I'm pretty sure we only have her word for that:


She says to Watson when they meet at Battersea Power Station that she loves women, but that's all part of the ploy to get Sherlock to do her decoding, remember. Even if you take it at face value, it's entirely possible she's bisexual, as Androgeus points out.

alwaysowls
2012-01-03, 08:23 AM
I believe:


that being captured by a terrorist cell and being prepared for execution by beheading is so far out of her comfort zone and any frame of reference she might have, that being reduced to tearful relief is more than acceptable.

She's a dominatrix, not an international secret agent. The fact that she kept it together enough to send a text message (seriously, you try retaining fine motor control in a situation like that) shows she has some strength of character.

Certainly; it's not that moment in isolation that renders the characterisation annoying, but rather the way the character was handled throughout the episode. It's the fact that Moffat took her from being a powerful woman in control to a damsel in distress waiting for her knight to save her. It's the fact that she identifies as a lesbian, right up until the point where she falls for the male protagonist. It's the fact that a character initially presented as fiercely intelligent, canny and resourceful is ultimately revealed to be a pawn in the battle of wits between Sherlock and Moriarty, who's been relying on advice and aid from the latter.

You're right, she's no secret agent, and of course a person in that situation would be scared out of their mind. But it's the implications behind that scene that are troubling - the sexually powerful woman laid low, and needing her handsome prince to come and rescue her.



Absolutely nothing would happen. That was plastic explosive in the vest, which needs high temperature and a powerful shock in order to explode. Shooting it with a gun (unless the gunshot was very lucky and triggered the detonator) wouldn't do anything to it.

Was it a complete cop-out? I'd say mostly, but as others have mentioned, it was probably Irene who saved their Holmes and Watson, so at least it's an explainable cop-out.

In any case, Moriaty and Holmes can't kill each other until the Reichenbach Falls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichenbach_Falls). :smalltongue:


Mm. I kind of get the feeling they'd written themselves into a corner with the season 1 finale and couldn't figure out a better way out of it. It's more of a minor annoyance to me, as opposed to the handling of Irene - but still, I wish we'd been given some kind of proper resolution to the previous episode.

And don't be silly! We all know the writers will magically resurrect Sherlock after Reichenbach Falls so they can cash in on season three! Just following after Conan Doyle's illustrious example, of course. :smallbiggrin:

I'm looking forward to that episode; it'll be fun to see how the writers interpret the Reichenbach Falls fight.


I'm pretty sure we only have her word for that:


She says to Watson when they meet at Battersea Power Station that she loves women, but that's all part of the ploy to get Sherlock to do her decoding, remember. Even if you take it at face value, it's entirely possible she's bisexual, as Androgeus points out.


You're right, it's very possible she's bi, and given what a keen manipulator she is she could well have been lying. But again, the implications - a woman saying she's gay before falling in love with the male lead - are very unfortunate.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-03, 08:47 AM
Welcome to every single portrayal of Irene Adler in movie history alwaysowls.

At least they didn't put her on a conveyer belt of doom like they did in the American movie.

Howler Dagger
2012-01-03, 09:02 AM
My biggest problem with it was that the phone's code was

The worst pun you could make on a Sherlock Holmes show

Flickerdart
2012-01-03, 10:01 AM
What I wonder is this:

The only reason Moriarty spares Holmes and Watson is because Adler needed them to break her code. But then they did, and then Adler lost her phone, along with all her usefulness. What's stopping Moriarty from sending some top men after the duo, considering that he already decided to kill them at the pool?

Axolotl
2012-01-03, 10:06 AM
What I wonder is this:

The only reason Moriarty spares Holmes and Watson is because Adler needed them to break her code. But then they did, and then Adler lost her phone, along with all her usefulness. What's stopping Moriarty from sending some top men after the duo, considering that he already decided to kill them at the pool?
Nothing, which is probably why The Final Problem is being adapted this series.

factotum
2012-01-03, 10:56 AM
My biggest problem with it was that the phone's code was

The worst pun you could make on a Sherlock Holmes show

I wonder what her code was BEFORE she met him...

Brother Oni
2012-01-03, 11:09 AM
It's the fact that a character initially presented as fiercely intelligent, canny and resourceful is ultimately revealed to be a pawn in the battle of wits between Sherlock and Moriarty, who's been relying on advice and aid from the latter.

You're right, she's no secret agent, and of course a person in that situation would be scared out of their mind. But it's the implications behind that scene that are troubling - the sexually powerful woman laid low, and needing her handsome prince to come and rescue her.



Adler is good, but Moriaty and Holmes are better. I don't think it's a slur on her character to show how outclassed she is by them - take a look at Watson: he's a fully qualified army doctor, who shows no hesitation in shooting people. He's not stupid by any means yet he's always portrayed as slightly bumbling compared to Holmes.

In my opinion, that's quite an accurate depiction of what happens when an actual genius is compared to someone normal.
As well demonstrated with Molly's Christmas present, Holmes can be a right [redacted] when he doesn't know when to reign in his cleverness.




I'm looking forward to that episode; it'll be fun to see how the writers interpret the Reichenbach Falls fight.

I'm personally looking forward to their adaptation of Holmes' canonical abilities at hand to hand combat and bartitsu. Bonus marks if he gets to do it with a cane like in the surviving photographs (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Copy_of_Montage.jpg/437px-Copy_of_Montage.jpg). :smallbiggrin:


I wonder what her code was BEFORE she met him...

What's the likelihood that she didn't have the 'phone before she met him?

With regard to the 'phone though

Four micro explosive charges inside it to destroy the RAM chips? I can think of a number of ways to bypass or disable it, the simplest being to take the battery out (either the main one or the one those charges might be connected to).

Liquid nitrogen dunking would be my second option, then after that I'd have to start getting creative.

kamikasei
2012-01-03, 11:13 AM
Oh cool, the critical points I wanted to make have already been made, and better than I would have. Cheers, alwaysowls.

Still, though I was not happy with the handling of Adler's character (I was facepalming for the first half hour, thought the episode redeemed itself reasonably well as it continued, but found some elements of the resolution troubling again), overall it was good. Even in places where I found what was being said objectionable I was laughing anyway.
Dropping the American agent out of the window, though... that was just weird and cartoonish. I cannot believe you can do something like that with the kind of certainty as to what injuries will result that Sherlock seemed to possess. Especially not repeatedly. I don't like things that should carry a real risk of death being treated as just magically being non-lethal and known as such in advance, on an otherwise serious show.

My biggest problem with it was that the phone's code was
The worst pun you could make on a Sherlock Holmes show
Well, sure. That's what was so great about it.

Brother Oni
2012-01-03, 11:38 AM
Dropping the American agent out of the window, though... that was just weird and cartoonish. I cannot believe you can do something like that with the kind of certainty as to what injuries will result that Sherlock seemed to possess. Especially not repeatedly. I don't like things that should carry a real risk of death being treated as just magically being non-lethal and known as such in advance, on an otherwise serious show.


I found it perfectly in keeping. The agent roughed up Mrs Hudson (including backhanding her across the face hard enough to draw blood), which was a line too far for Sherlock (bear in mind the agent threatened to kill both him and Watson, so beating up an old lady must be particularly heinous).

As Mrs Hudson mentioned, Sherlock intentionally dropped the agent onto the bins, so his fall was cushioned (presumably they were the wheelie bins (http://www.bishopthorpe.net/mt/news/Green%20Bins.jpg) that are commonplace here) to a point, so the injuries were disabling but not life threatening (the agent was fit enough to be back on active service a few days later).

H. Zee
2012-01-03, 09:09 PM
Adler is good, but Moriaty and Holmes are better. I don't think it's a slur on her character to show how outclassed she is by them - take a look at Watson: he's a fully qualified army doctor, who shows no hesitation in shooting people. He's not stupid by any means yet he's always portrayed as slightly bumbling compared to Holmes.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this bit stuck out to me. Because, the thing is, in the original Sherlock Holmes plot on which this episode is based, Holmes is good, but it is Adler who is better. As far as I can recall, she is the only character who Conan Doyle actually has outwit Holmes.

And Moffat takes this plot, and changes it so that Adler is not only outwitted, but needs Holmes to come save her in a good ol' damsel-in-distress scenario.

That's what annoyed me most of all, really. Something written in 1891 shouldn't have better gender politics than something written in 2011.

EDIT: Edited for spoilers.

Weezer
2012-01-03, 09:55 PM
I agree with the rest of your post, but this bit stuck out to me. Because, the thing is, in the original Sherlock Holmes plot on which this episode is based, Holmes is good, but it is Adler who is better. As far as I can recall, she is the only character who Conan Doyle actually has outwit Holmes.

And Moffat takes this plot, and changes it so that Adler is not only outwitted, but needs Holmes to come save her in a good ol' damsel-in-distress scenario.

That's what annoyed me most of all, really. Something written in 1891 shouldn't have better gender politics than something written in 2011.

EDIT: Edited for spoilers.

The thing is that Adler's "victory" really only consisted of buggering off to America with her fiancee before Holmes could retrieve the pictures from where he knew they were hidden. She didn't really outwit him, didn't manipulate him, just was able to run away far enough that Holmes wasn't motivate to chase her after he got the pictures back. So, despite the odd shift to damsel in distress at the end of the episode, Moffat's Adler definitely was shown to be far more of a match for Holmes than Doyle's Adler. In fact I believe she was a far stronger female character in the episode than in the original. In the original, if you ignore her gender, she didn't stand out in terms of being an opponent to Holmes, there were a number of people who disappeared before Holmes could catch up, but after he figured them out, her only distinquishing feature was her gender and the surprise the reader was supposed to feel that a mere woman could do the (relatively minor) things she did in opposition to Holmes. That's not exactly what I would call a particularly modern approach to a female character, though not bad at all for the late 1800s.

Wardog
2012-01-04, 07:34 PM
The 'save the world' part is probably exaggeration on the part of the civil servant who was trying to impress Irene, but letting a 747 explode in the current political climate wouldn't be good, to put it lightly.

There's no information on how the terrorists planned to get the bomb onto the aircraft (obviously not as passengers), but it was mentioned that the US and UK Governments knew that a bomb was going to be planted, but were intending to let it explode anyway.

Suppose the reason how they knew the bomb was going to be planted, was that an agent had infiltrated the terrorist cell and manipulated them into planting the bomb, ostensibly for some sort of political gain (further pressure on the rest of the government to enact a harsher security bill/measure)?
The bomb planting is easy - the mole volunteers to do it and just gives it over to his handlers.

You get all the public outrage at the bombing, all the finger pointing at intelligence 'failures', but no lawsuits from the victim's relatives.
Terrorists get swept up in the resulting security crackdown (which should be a piece of cake since the mole knows where they all are), more funding for the various intelligence services and nobody really died, so it's a win situation all round for the 'good guys'.

You can obviously see why security leaks of this plan would be an issue - Moriaty bluffed Mycroft with a fragment of information which was enough to derail the entire thing.



That seems like an unnecessary level of conspiracy.

My assumption (based on the Coventry analogy) was that is was more likely that they had a mole in the terrorist organization who had informed them of the bomb plot. If they stopped the flight and defused the bomb, the terrorists would know they had a mole, and possibly even be able to identify him. This way, they can save the lives of the passengers, without letting the terrorists realize they have a mole.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-05, 05:49 AM
That seems like an unnecessary level of conspiracy.

My assumption (based on the Coventry analogy) was that is was more likely that they had a mole in the terrorist organization who had informed them of the bomb plot. If they stopped the flight and defused the bomb, the terrorists would know they had a mole, and possibly even be able to identify him. This way, they can save the lives of the passengers, without letting the terrorists realize they have a mole.

In that case, why don't you just cancel the flight. Flights get cancelled all the time.

Also, the "Sher-locked" pun was nowhere near as bad as the "mother ship" from the last Doctor Who.

Brother Oni
2012-01-05, 06:29 AM
That seems like an unnecessary level of conspiracy.



As compared to stealing 300-400 dead bodies and blowing up an over 200million USD passenger jet?

That's a very expensive and convoluted plan to just keep the cover of a mole. If you're planning something on that scale, you might as well go the whole hog and get your money's worth.

The governments knew well in advance when and where the bomb was going to be planted (the preparations took months to organise) - as Sunken Valley pointed out, terrorist organisations usually don't plan that far ahead.

Any last minute changes would completely screw up the operation, so they had to ensure the bomb was going on this flight, nad the easiest way for the mole to do that, is to make the bombing his plan.

Now whether Mycroft knew about this little detail is up for debate. He knows that a bomb is going to be on this plane and he needs to get the passengers and plane in place.
How the bomb is going to be on the plane is irrelevant to his part of the plan and in the morally ambiguous world of espionage, the less people know, the better, not to mention it helps protect Mycroft through plausible deniability.

Socratov
2012-01-05, 06:33 AM
I only just started watching the series through some more obscure mean (hrm) as Sherlock isn't shown on the Dutch telly... (such a waste) And I immedeatly loved the series...

the only problem I had was
the fact that they let Moriaty out so early, IMO it was just unneccessary...

On the subject of
Irene Adler, it was shown that she could outwit Holmes, especially because Holmes tries and tries, and gets fairly frustrated, when he can't discover anything about Irene Adler, while the rest of the populace are like an open book for him. The fact he has to hang on to a minor victory like the firealarm shows his pettyness resulting in her win... When, however Irene has manipulated Holmes into doing her bidding, she realises Homes is her only way out. The only one to be able to figure out her hints without giving away her hints to her captors... Again, her win, her cleverness that allows her to utilise Holmes and actually survive... though she indeed is not perfect as she allows emotions to mix in with business (as Holmes proves by unlocking the phone).

Kato
2012-01-05, 09:26 AM
So... got arounf to watching the new show.


I liked it. It wasn't perfect but it was highly enjoyable, as I'd expect of Moffat.
I really wouldn't complain about Irene, though I guess I can see where it's coming from she was mostly his equal, and the end... heck, it was just kind of cute. I really wouldn't have seen it as a "damsel in distress". Also, she managed to kind of get to him, which is quite an achievement with Holmes in an of itself. I can see why people complain but I don't share their opinion.

Urgh, stop bitching about the bomb... how and when and whatever... I don't think any of you know good enough how terrorists act and such to make a definite comment on that. Or file it under fiction...

Some things might have been a bit convoluted or coincidental but... heck, whoever likes the original books can hardly complain about convoluted stories...

The acting was great, the script was good, most of the cases were nice... Yeah, I could complain here and there but it was still awesome enough for me :smallbiggrin:

Also, terrible pun, yeah. But hatman and Robin wasn't any better.

Brother Oni
2012-01-05, 11:10 AM
Urgh, stop bitching about the bomb... how and when and whatever... I don't think any of you know good enough how terrorists act and such to make a definite comment on that. Or file it under fiction...


Any detailed rebuttal I could make to this would be too political for this forum, but we're discussing the small details of a story about a private detective whose singular outstanding feature is noticing the small details. :smalltongue:

Kato
2012-01-05, 11:42 AM
Any detailed rebuttal I could make to this would be too political for this forum, but we're discussing the small details of a story about a private detective whose singular outstanding feature is noticing the small details. :smalltongue:

Admittedly, but still, it feels like too much nitpicking to me... Okay, if you enjoy it, go on.

btw, anyone else still curious if some writer will make Watson and Sherlock kiss to please certain fans?

Brother Oni
2012-01-05, 02:02 PM
Admittedly, but still, it feels like too much nitpicking to me... Okay, if you enjoy it, go on.


I don't really class that as being nitpicking, more like filling in the plot holes.

Me trying to pin down Watson's regiment - now THAT'S nitpicking. :smalltongue:



btw, anyone else still curious if some writer will make Watson and Sherlock kiss to please certain fans?

I'm sure there's plenty of fanfiction that will satisfy your needs if that's what you want. :smallsigh:

Avilan the Grey
2012-01-05, 05:03 PM
That's what annoyed me most of all, really. Something written in 1891 shouldn't have better gender politics than something written in 2011.

EDIT: Edited for spoilers.

As Weezer says... She didn't outsmart him. She stalled him long enough to leave the country before he could catch her.

Basically what happens at least twice in this episode.

SmartAlec
2012-01-08, 01:40 PM
Oh, Moriarty. Why, why? Every time you do something cool, you undercut it by acting like Graham Norton, Criminal Mastermind.

You know, it occurs to me that the character of 'Jim' Moriarty is unfortunately similar that of the Master from the new Doctor Who series.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-08, 05:19 PM
Review of Hounds of Baskerville



Overall thoughts
Awesome! Not as solid as Belgravia but very good. I see where Gatiss' brain has been (although to be fair Night Terrors was awesome).

Stuff I like
I liked how close it stuck to the book. I liked the mysteries, red herrings and the reveal that the hound was a drug. Russel Tovey was good

But what I liked most? This ep scared me. It scared me a few times, but it affected me most when the lights went on and off at Tovey's house. Doctor Who never scared me as much as this. Even when they had the angel's and the Nerada, it wasn't as scary as this.



Stuff I didn't like
That CGI dog at the end looked a bit fake. I don't care if it was a hallucination, it looked fake!

The killer was too obvious because he directly intercepted Watson's investigation and he kept trying to pin it on Stapleton. Who it obviously wasn't because that's too obvious.

That "teaser" for the next episode looked weird and made no sense. Any interpreters?


Fun fact
On the Major's desk there is a picture of a dalek with "for daddy" written on it.



9/10

Brother Oni
2012-01-08, 05:31 PM
That "teaser" for the next episode looked weird and made no sense. Any interpreters?




The reboot version of Colonel Moran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Moran), Moriaty's right hand man in the books?

DomaDoma
2012-01-09, 01:18 AM
Haven't seen the second episode. But regarding Irene:

Am I the only one who noticed that she was bisexual in canon? She broke up a marriage because she had affairs with both parties, remember.

Socratov
2012-01-09, 07:04 AM
Wow! Just wow! I just have to remember that memory trick, it might come in handy one day... :)

I really loved the whole government, drug and complot theory mashup...

I didn't minde the CGI for the dog... it as acutally well used because it would hel the public go along with sherlock and disbelief their eyes... clever trick. What I noticed however, is Watson the only good whot around? he again made the kill while Lestrade had (imo) a better position, but missed twice while the good doctor hit twice...

Can't wait untill next episode, finally a proper homicidal maniac, this could be fun :smallamused:

Brother Oni
2012-01-09, 08:18 AM
What I noticed however, is Watson the only good whot around? he again made the kill while Lestrade had (imo) a better position, but missed twice while the good doctor hit twice...



Well Lestrade is only a police inspector while Watson is ex-military, so obviously Watson would be a better shot. :smalltongue:

This is of course ignoring the fact that Watson was an army doctor and would be far too valuable to be let near the enemy, possession of an automatic pistol is illegal under UK law (especially a military class one) and that UK firearm officers are VERY well trained (very few police officers have the authorisation to carry and use firearms and if Lestrade was allowed to sign out a pistol, he'd be one of them). :smallsigh:

Nitpicks aside, it could be argued that Watson has already been exposed to the gas, so is better prepared for its effects, compared to Lestrade.



On a separate note:
Is it me, or have the last two episodes have shown how much of a complete [redacted] Sherlock can be in simple human interactions?

I do like the running cheekbones joke though. :smallbiggrin:

Weezer
2012-01-09, 11:09 AM
Saw the episode last night, I really liked it. It wasn't quite as good as Scandal, but definitely far better than Blind Banker. Kept nicely in line with the original, while still adding enough to keep those who knew the story interested and engaged. One (very small) thing that I love about it is how casually they treat homosexuality, there is a single almost throw away line about the innkeeper and cook being partners and that's it. You would never see that in American television where anything homosexual is either made into a joke, played for sexiness (if those involved are hot lesbians) or waved in front of the audience shouting "look! We have gay people in our show, we're so up to date and not biased!". Sherlock's treatment of it was simply refreshing.

Flickerdart
2012-01-09, 09:20 PM
It seems that this season is very much about bringing Holmes low. Sets a very interesting trend for next week.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 01:53 AM
Enjoyed it very much. Although I guessed narcotics almost immediately. Super mutant dogs seemed a bit out there. A very solid episode though.

Agreement on the preview being weird.

Brother Oni
2012-01-10, 03:25 AM
Enjoyed it very much. Although I guessed narcotics almost immediately.

There's a significant difference between a narcotic and a chemical weapon. :smalltongue:

Something that's been bugging me though - GFP is a marker protein usually used to indicate that something's been successfully implanted into the target critter. So what where they implanting into Bluebell? :smalltongue:

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 03:29 AM
There's a significant difference between a narcotic and a chemical weapon. :smalltongue:

Something that's been bugging me though - GFP is a marker protein usually used to indicate that something's been successfully implanted into the target critter. So what where they implanting into Bluebell? :smalltongue:

Fair enough. :smalltongue: How about mind altering substance?

Brother Oni
2012-01-10, 06:15 AM
Fair enough. :small tongue: How about mind altering substance?

Works for me. :smallbiggrin:

Sunken Valley
2012-01-10, 06:48 AM
I have uncovered a shocking revelation.

Sherlock has Depending On The Writer!

Think about it. In "Study in Pink" Holmes was portrayed as a Egotistical genius whose mind is superhumanly great and inscrutable to everyone except maybe Mycroft. He likes showing off his genius even if it scares people and has no compassion for anyone but himself (and if he does, he hides it). He can crack codes in 5 seconds and doesn't care about the implications, just the challenge and the puzzle. He's only slightly less insane than the criminals he hunts. And he will do anything, no matter how stupid as long as it means solving the puzzle, keeping it secret from everyone, even Watson. Well that's the same Sherlock in "Scandle at Belgravia".

In "The Great Game" Holmes was portrayed as a brilliant man who struggled with the implications of his genius. He is constantly bored by menial assignments wanting a true puzzle to show up. He struggles making friends (or friend) but is devoted and loyal to them (although also playing pranks on them). Whenever he can't understand something he goes into a massive breakdown about it. He does care about other people as any sane and normal person would (unlike the previous Sherlock). This is the same Sherlock from "Hounds of Baskerville.

In "The Blind Banker", Holmes was like the Downey Junior Holmes. No really. He has quite a few "accquianitances" (although he sees them all as fools) although he cares greatly about Watson. Although he takes a while to solve the mystery he has great advance planning and works out strategies well in advance. He has great fighting skill although a skilled fighter can take him down. And he's very willing to go "along for the ride". Time will tell if the same man can be found in the "richenbach fall".

Kato
2012-01-10, 04:55 PM
I'm sure there's plenty of fanfiction that will satisfy your needs if that's what you want. :smallsigh:
Did I say I want it :smallconfused:


I liked the new episode good enough. It wasn't as good as great game but maybe it's the middle episodes that are always a little lacking (though it still felt much better than Blind Baker even though I didn't like the overall plot thaaat much)

But it was fun, all in all... even though a real mutated hellhound would have been kind of neat as well :smallbiggrin: Small chance of us ever seeing that.

Weezer
2012-01-10, 05:29 PM
But it was fun, all in all... even though a real mutated hellhound would have been kind of neat as well :smallbiggrin: Small chance of us ever seeing that.

I'm actually glad they avoided having a real hellhound, it fit in nicely with the original story, whereas having a real hellhound would just be too fantastical for the show.

Closet_Skeleton
2012-01-10, 11:10 PM
The Blind Banker wasn't that bad. It just didn't handle its silliness as well as the other two episodes of the season. Its was a quality dip to be sure but really wasn't that differant to the other two episodes.

Complaining that the villains were too yellow peril seems to be missing the point. Does political correctness really make people utterly incapable of enjoying silly throwbacks?


I'm actually glad they avoided having a real hellhound, it fit in nicely with the original story, whereas having a real hellhound would just be too fantastical for the show.

It would have been a cop out. Like all those sub par scooby doo series that have real monsters in them.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-11, 02:15 AM
The Blind Banker wasn't that bad. It just didn't handle its silliness as well as the other two episodes of the season. Its was a quality dip to be sure but really wasn't that differant to the other two episodes.

Sherlock being incapable of decoding the code as fast as he did in Pink and Belgravia?

Sherlock getting beaten up.

The pace being much slower.

Sherlock having another friend than watson.

The mystery being both simplistic (they kept randomly showing the big bad for no reason) and contrived (no foreshadowing that the 2nd victim had a girlfriend).

The fact that they had Zoe Teleford and all they did was tie her to a chair and point a cross bow at her.

Most importantly, the fact that I was half an hour late to the ep when I first saw it and missed nothing!

Sunken Valley
2012-01-15, 05:44 PM
Okay, full review tomorrow but I refuse to believe Steve Thompson wrote this. It was good.

Two questions
How did Moriarty trick the children into reacting to Sherlock?

How did Sherlock survive? I know Molly was involved.

Brother Oni
2012-01-15, 05:46 PM
Ok, Reichenbach Falls...

I'm really wondering how Sherlock got out of this one. I suspect it depends highly on what he got from Molly but two possibilities:

Option 1: Heavy muscle relaxant, so that he's completely limp when he hits the ground. Incredible unlikely, but still within the realms of possibility.

Option 2: He put Moriaty in his coat and scarf, then chucked the body off the rooftop - what John saw wasn't Sherlock, but Moriaty being stood up. Again, very unlikely as Sherlock never disappeared from view (ostensibly for a runup, but in actuality just picking up the body).

I'm fairly sure that Mycroft is involved in the cover up somewhere as Moriaty's body isn't mentioned.

Plus at least we know who was being released at the end of the last episode now.


Okay, full review tomorrow but I refuse to believe Steve Thompson wrote this. It was good.

Two questions
How did Moriarty trick the children into reacting to Sherlock?



He terrorises them with an extremely caricatured Sherlock face? After all, it's dark in there, they're already scared and he does have a very distinctive face. :smalltongue:

Maybe this is the obligatory cheekbone reference for this episode?

Closet_Skeleton
2012-01-15, 05:47 PM
My guess would be it was Moriarty's body in Sherlock's coat and Molly signed the death certificate as though it were Sherlock.

edited for ninja and forgotten spoilarz

Brother Oni
2012-01-15, 05:50 PM
My guess would be it was Moriarty's body in Sherlock's coat and Molly signed the death certificate as though it were Sherlock.

edited for ninja and forgotten spoilarz

Molly's a lab tech though, not a doctor.

factotum
2012-01-15, 05:51 PM
Nice theory, but doesn't really work:


Sherlock explicitly asked John to not take his eyes off him, and as far as we can tell, he fully obeyed that instruction. There was no opportunity to swap bodies, and even if he did, it would look a bit ruddy obvious him stood up there supporting a corpse!

Molly is definitely involved somehow, but exactly how I have no idea.

As for the kids, it would be easy enough to get a Pavlov reaction out of children so young--just make sure there's a picture of Sherlock in front of them every time you do something unpleasant.

Closet_Skeleton
2012-01-15, 07:23 PM
Molly's a lab tech though, not a doctor.

She's not a lab tech. She's a coroner. She just acts like a lab tech when Sherlock is around.

Xondoure
2012-01-16, 01:25 AM
That was incredible. More! I must have more!

But without Moriarty... We'll see.
Everyone has already speculated most everything I have to say. Molly was involved. Something ridiculous happened.

I'd add that I'm pretty sure whoever knocked Watson over did it on purpose to buy time for what happened next. But more than that I have no idea.

Socratov
2012-01-16, 02:24 AM
I heard a third season has just been confirmed.

factotum
2012-01-16, 02:29 AM
Just thought of a theory about the ending:


My evidence: Holmes kept telling Watson to stay where he was, which happened to be a location he couldn't see the landing spot from. In addition, there was a small crowd of people on the pavement underneath Sherlock (as noticed by Moriarty)--they were too close to the building to be just there to gawp at the potential suicide. Therefore, I think that group of people somehow caught him (using a sheet?), then put him on the ground with a vial of fake blood and put the catching device away. You'll notice the same group of people were very unwilling to let Watson through to examine the "corpse", despite his cries he was a doctor!

Sunken Valley
2012-01-16, 03:41 AM
Review


Overall thoughts
This was good, very solid metaphorical description of Sherlock vs Moriarty's duel. Andrew Scott>Jared Harris. I refuse to believe that Stephen Thompson wrote this himself. You don't go from Blind Banker and the Pirate episode of Doctor Who to writing that. You just don't.

Stuff I liked
Almost all of it!

Stuff I didn't like
Moriarty's plan was predictable. I saw everything he did coming just before it was shown. Still a genius though.

I already mentioned the kids, but I am sure there is something else Moriarty did that wasn't explained how. Like how did getting the killers affect his plan except for getting them to shoot Sherlock's friends.

That disney death was drawn out.

I was initially annoyed that the Molly thing was obviously foreshadowed after it had been more subtly foreshadowed. But since they're going the "no explaining route" it's a good idea.




9.5/10

Brother Oni
2012-01-16, 05:27 AM
She's not a lab tech. She's a coroner. She just acts like a lab tech when Sherlock is around.

Huh, I didn't realise that. It does make Sherlock's general treatment of her even more [redacted] as she's just as qualified/intelligent as John.


Just thought of a theory about the ending:


My evidence: Holmes kept telling Watson to stay where he was, which happened to be a location he couldn't see the landing spot from. In addition, there was a small crowd of people on the pavement underneath Sherlock (as noticed by Moriarty)--they were too close to the building to be just there to gawp at the potential suicide. Therefore, I think that group of people somehow caught him (using a sheet?), then put him on the ground with a vial of fake blood and put the catching device away. You'll notice the same group of people were very unwilling to let Watson through to examine the "corpse", despite his cries he was a doctor!


Possibly, but the crowd of people all being intentionally there to catch Sherlock is questionable, as I believe there was a bus stop or something (need to double check) plus the landing site was within sight, or at least just behind that bench/bus stop.

As for him barging in, saying he was a doctor - he didn't, he was saying he was his friend.

As somebody else said, that cyclist was a little too convenient, so probably part of Sherlock's plan.



I already mentioned the kids, but I am sure there is something else Moriarty did that wasn't explained how. Like how did getting the killers affect his plan except for getting them to shoot Sherlock's friends.


They didn't - they were just there to add pressure onto Sherlock and John. I think there was a different set of killers that Moriaty hired to directly eliminate Sherlock's friends to the ones that had setup camp nearby.


As an aside:

The various stunts that Moriaty pulled off in the beginning were general harmless, although highly embarrassing.

The Crown Jewels that are on display to the public are fakes, so breaking in and wearing them isn't that much of a security issue.

Pentonville is only a class B/C prison, not a maximum security class A prison, plus even if the electronic security fails, the prisoners still need to get pass the physical locks and barriers (British prisons are generally not that high tech).

Even if the Bank's vault is open, any potential robber still needs to get past all the external security, so the contents are still fairly safe.

All the above does highlight Sherlock's need for a clever reason for a crime, as Moriaty pointed out - straightforward bribery of key officials would probably be disregard as too simple.

factotum
2012-01-16, 07:52 AM
Brother Oni:


He said both--he definitely said he was a doctor as well as Sherlock's friend. I certainly don't recall seeing a bus stop there, either. Fundamentally, though, it's the only explanation I can think of that fits what we saw...as the main himself said, eliminate the impossible, and whatever's left, however unlikely, is the truth.

Brother Oni
2012-01-16, 12:23 PM
Brother Oni:


He said both--he definitely said he was a doctor as well as Sherlock's friend. I certainly don't recall seeing a bus stop there, either. Fundamentally, though, it's the only explanation I can think of that fits what we saw...as the main himself said, eliminate the impossible, and whatever's left, however unlikely, is the truth.



Double checking, there is a bus stop to the left, but nowhere close enough to impede John's view.
He does have to go round a building to see the pavement where Sherlock landed though and most crucially, a lorry/truck which pulls off as Watson rounds the corner.

This van looks like to be one of the council street cleaner type lorries, which has large bags of rubbish in the back (or possibly a laundry van with similar bags), which probably explains why Sherlock stopped Watson exactly where he did - limited line of sight.

Sherlock jumps, lands in the van (which is there thanks to Molly) with minimal injuries and by the time Watson rounds the corner, he's scrambled out and pretends to be dead. Staff are on the scene unusually quickly (also Molly's doing) and since John's stunned (both physically from the cyclist's impact and mentally/emotionally from Sherlock's 'suicide'), he believes what he saw to be true.

Also, you're right, he does both say he's a doctor and his friend, but the staff don't let him through (presumably because there's a doctor already attending to him).

Xondoure
2012-01-16, 02:42 PM
Double checking, there is a bus stop to the left, but nowhere close enough to impede John's view.
He does have to go round a building to see the pavement where Sherlock landed though and most crucially, a lorry/truck which pulls off as Watson rounds the corner.

This van looks like to be one of the council street cleaner type lorries, which has large bags of rubbish in the back (or possibly a laundry van with similar bags), which probably explains why Sherlock stopped Watson exactly where he did - limited line of sight.

Sherlock jumps, lands in the van (which is there thanks to Molly) with minimal injuries and by the time Watson rounds the corner, he's scrambled out and pretends to be dead. Staff are on the scene unusually quickly (also Molly's doing) and since John's stunned (both physically from the cyclist's impact and mentally/emotionally from Sherlock's 'suicide'), he believes what he saw to be true.

Also, you're right, he does both say he's a doctor and his friend, but the staff don't let him through (presumably because there's a doctor already attending to him).


*thunderous applause

Brother Oni
2012-01-16, 03:27 PM
*thunderous applause

It's not exactly difficult to appear intelligent and observant when you have the rewind, fast forward and pause buttons. :smalltongue:

Avaris
2012-01-16, 03:50 PM
Interesting theory, though there are too many unknowns for me... chiefly, I'm not convinced Sherlock knew enough before he got onto the rooftop to be able to tell Molly what had to happen. Did he know about the fact Moriarty wanted him to jump? Did he know about the people targetting his friends? It didn't seem so... Sherlock wouldn't want to appear so stupid.

It also seems odd to me that Moriarty had Lestrade targetted but not Molly... maybe he didn't think Holmes cared about her at all, but then why lestrade?

Goosefeather
2012-01-16, 04:10 PM
I think you might not be giving Holmes, the character, enough credit. I see him as acting on the roof, to goad Moriarty into suicide, having already worked out the whole thing.

Why pretend to kill himself? To save Watson and the others, yes, but also to shed the fame which had begun to plague him. Compare it to the end of season 6 Doctor Who - his celebrity was starting to impede his work.

Brother Oni
2012-01-16, 04:20 PM
Interesting theory, though there are too many unknowns for me... chiefly, I'm not convinced Sherlock knew enough before he got onto the rooftop to be able to tell Molly what had to happen. Did he know about the fact Moriarty wanted him to jump? Did he know about the people targetting his friends? It didn't seem so... Sherlock wouldn't want to appear so stupid.

It also seems odd to me that Moriarty had Lestrade targetted but not Molly... maybe he didn't think Holmes cared about her at all, but then why lestrade?

It's fairly obvious that Moriaty wanted Sherlock's death, but not the manner, however since the most humiliating method would be suicide, Sherlock insured against it by meeting on top of the tall hospital building.

There's a moment where Sherlock asks for a some privacy while he's on the ledge - he's probably signalling some confederates to get the vehicle into position.

As for why Greg and not Molly, it doesn't actually matter. You could argue why not Mycroft as well, but it doesn't change the fact that Moriaty wanted Sherlock to kill himself, to cement the total destruction of his reputation.

In any case, my theory was focused on how he survived falling off the roof of Barts hospital. Why he had to fall off was, to me at least, fairly obvious from the conversation beforehand.



Compare it to the end of season 6 Doctor Who - his celebrity was starting to impede his work.

Thank you very much for that non-Sherlock spoiler. :smallmad:

I've only seen up to the prologue of The Rebel Flesh - I'm waiting for my children to get a bit bigger before watching the rest with them. :smallsigh:

In any case, since Eleven is a time traveller, faking his death doesn't really make that much sense since it wouldn't stop his fame, unless timey wimey ball seriously kicks in.
Unless you meant the actual season 6 with Two, in which case, all is forgiven. :smalltongue:

Socratov
2012-01-16, 04:27 PM
Interesting theory, though there are too many unknowns for me... chiefly, I'm not convinced Sherlock knew enough before he got onto the rooftop to be able to tell Molly what had to happen. Did he know about the fact Moriarty wanted him to jump? Did he know about the people targetting his friends? It didn't seem so... Sherlock wouldn't want to appear so stupid.

It also seems odd to me that Moriarty had Lestrade targetted but not Molly... maybe he didn't think Holmes cared about her at all, but then why lestrade?

Well, Sherlock cares aobout lestrade beacuse lestrade gives him his fix (you know, the puzzles). Mrs. hudson and Dr. Watson are self evident. On the subject of jumping: it is obvious. Jumping is the only method that requires guts (another challenge), is painfully in plain sight (no one can miss it), and very 'shameful' (attracting attention where Sherlock wouldn't want any with a smeared reputation. Moriarty wanted to get the message across of him beating Sherlock. Sherlock saw through this and invited Moriarty to come to the roof of St. Barts, indulging Moriarty by giving him a nice public venue to commit suicide in a straight way (which i don't know how) apparently could be avoided. Sherlock invited Moriarty onto his home turf (allowing Molly to prepare whatever solution).

You can see however the fakeness of his death: Sherlock falls headfirst (he falls forward and proceeds headfirst) while his head is mainly intact. I have visited a certain site featuring the result of someone diving off a buidling, and it's way messier then this (more blood, skull completely shattered). There has to be some kind off explanation since the fall and the result don't match.

all in all I reallly liked this episode and I can't wait untill the next season... damn you sherlock with your 3 episode seasons! :smallfurious:

Avaris
2012-01-16, 04:30 PM
It's fairly obvious that Moriaty wanted Sherlock's death, but not the manner, however since the most humiliating method would be suicide, Sherlock insured against it by meeting on top of the tall hospital building.

There's a moment where Sherlock asks for a some privacy while he's on the ledge - he's probably signalling some confederates to get the vehicle into position.

As for why Greg and not Molly, it doesn't actually matter. You could argue why not Mycroft as well, but it doesn't change the fact that Moriaty wanted Sherlock to kill himself, to cement the total destruction of his reputation.

In any case, my theory was focused on how he survived falling off the roof of Barts hospital. Why he had to fall off was, to me at least, fairly obvious from the conversation beforehand.

Yar, I think your theory of how he survived is about as good as we'll get...

I guess the question with Molly not being targetted is why just three people? Moriarty could surely have targetted more. Mycroft wouldn't make sense, given the relationship with his brother, so Molly is literally the last person close in any way to sherlock... why not her as well?

Hadn't thought about the privacy bit... that makes sense. I forget (or maybe it wasn't clear): was it Moriarty or Holmes who said to meet on the rooftop?

Brother Oni
2012-01-16, 04:36 PM
all in all I reallly liked this episode and I can't wait untill the next season... damn you sherlock with your 3 episode seasons! :smallfurious:

You could always watch the definitive series with Jeremy Brett. 9 series, 41 episodes in total - should keep you going for a while. :smalltongue:



I guess the question with Molly not being targetted is why just three people? Moriarty could surely have targetted more. Mycroft wouldn't make sense, given the relationship with his brother, so Molly is literally the last person close in any way to sherlock... why not her as well?

Hadn't thought about the privacy bit... that makes sense. I forget (or maybe it wasn't clear): was it Moriarty or Holmes who said to meet on the rooftop?

Except she's not - remember that Moriaty dated her briefly, probably in order to find out about Sherlock. He probably picked up everything he needed to know about Molly's and Sherlock's relationship during the first date.

I believe it was Sherlock who arranged the meet on top of the hospital.

Edit: It was.


Also: I've just noticed the spoiler in the episode's title. D'oh. :smallsigh:

Kato
2012-01-16, 05:30 PM
Seen it...


Well...I overall liked the episode. There were maybe some minor things that bugged me but it was really good on the whole. Though I guess some things UI might complain about will be rectified next season.

As for his survival....I'll mostly agree with Oni. Hired people (homeless network?) in position to catch him, something to fake the wound and the lack of pulse, bicyclist to hit Watson, Molly to fake the death warrant. Maybe Mycroft is in on it as well...

Example...I don't think Sherlock could be dumb enough to think his tapping would be able to open vaults. He must have figured at least some part of Moriarty out, probably everything.

Why Molly wasn't targeted... dunno. Maybe Jim really thought Sherlock didn't care for her.


But yeah,pretty nice episode.

Raddish
2012-01-16, 07:17 PM
I liked it a lot, was good.

I think the Molly not being targerted was for the same reason that she thought that Sherlock thought of her differently, I can't remember how she worded it but I think it was like she didn't matter so he didn't hide how he was feeling. It was when they were doing microscopey stuff in a lab...

Socratov
2012-01-17, 05:12 AM
Seen it...


Well...I overall liked the episode. There were maybe some minor things that bugged me but it was really good on the whole. Though I guess some things UI might complain about will be rectified next season.

As for his survival....I'll mostly agree with Oni. Hired people (homeless network?) in position to catch him, something to fake the wound and the lack of pulse, bicyclist to hit Watson, Molly to fake the death warrant. Maybe Mycroft is in on it as well...

Example...I don't think Sherlock could be dumb enough to think his tapping would be able to open vaults. He must have figured at least some part of Moriarty out, probably everything.

Why Molly wasn't targeted... dunno. Maybe Jim really thought Sherlock didn't care for her.


But yeah,pretty nice episode.

Mycroft wasn't in on it. he actually showed emotion (not only regret like before, but grief, a lot of grief) in a place where he wouldn't need to show it (like, in public). What's more, itis shown he starts grieving after he recieves the text from watson... So, no, Mycroft is not in on this. Regarding molly, Jim saw it. it was also evident that Homes lvoes his landlady(occasional housekeeper) :smallamused: watson and lestrade (supplying him with his fix :smallyuk: )

Oh man, those writers are clever... look at us: guessing to no end. wow, I never thought plotholes could be executed so good to actually create a whole plot...

Brother Oni
2012-01-17, 07:12 AM
Example...I don't think Sherlock could be dumb enough to think his tapping would be able to open vaults. He must have figured at least some part of Moriarty out, probably everything.


I don't know - Sherlock has shown some shocking ignorance about things outside of his area of expertise.

Computer programming (going up from binary to assembly code) and modern encryption methods could easily be outside his knowledge space.



Mycroft wasn't in on it.

Oh man, those writers are clever... look at us: guessing to no end. wow, I never thought plotholes could be executed so good to actually create a whole plot...

I agree Mycroft wasn't in on the original plan. I seriously doubt he didn't become aware of it shortly afterwards - it's one thing to fake your death to your friends and public, entirely another to fake it to senior civil servant with contacts and resources in various government security and intelligence services.

As noted earlier, Moriaty's body disappeared, or at least wasn't mentioned ('dual suicide pact' or 'murder suicide' would have made an even better headline), suggesting that somebody took care of it.


I suggested earlier that these aren't really plot 'holes' per se, as they're not a gap in the logic of the story, more like unfilled details which weren't covered in the original story due to time constraints.

I'd also disagree that we're guessing randomly - I like to think we're putting forward theories based on the available evidence. :smalltongue:

Goosefeather
2012-01-17, 07:52 AM
I don't know - Sherlock has shown some shocking ignorance about things outside of his area of expertise.

Computer programming (going up from binary to assembly code) and modern encryption methods could easily be outside his knowledge space.



Though I'd argue that surely codes and encryption in general fall under the purview of 'less well-known stuff on which Sherlock is an expert', rather than 'commonly known stuff that Sherlock is surprisingly ignorant of'.

Sherlock is always pretty up to speed with modern (C19 in the original stories, but C21 in these) technology, as long as he can make use of it in his job, and I'd imagine codes, and by extension coding, would come in rather handy. He seems pretty knowledgeable around Irene Adler's phone, for example.

Kato
2012-01-17, 10:54 AM
Mycroft wasn't in on it. he actually showed emotion (not only regret like before, but grief, a lot of grief) in a place where he wouldn't need to show it (like, in public). What's more, itis shown he starts grieving after he recieves the text from watson... So, no, Mycroft is not in on this.



I agree Mycroft wasn't in on the original plan. I seriously doubt he didn't become aware of it shortly afterwards - it's one thing to fake your death to your friends and public, entirely another to fake it to senior civil servant with contacts and resources in various government security and intelligence services.



Hm, must have missed it if Mycroft was shown later... I guess my idea was he'd have to get suspicious so SH would have told him anyway. But I probably was wrong.

Weezer
2012-01-17, 12:24 PM
Hm, must have missed it if Mycroft was shown later... I guess my idea was he'd have to get suspicious so SH would have told him anyway. But I probably was wrong.

Well the first episode in the season demonstrated that Sherlock was able to fake a person's death well enough to trick Mycroft, so it's not out of the realm of possibility for him to do it again.

Socratov
2012-01-17, 12:37 PM
Well the first episode in the season demonstrated that Sherlock was able to fake a person's death well enough to trick Mycroft, so it's not out of the realm of possibility for him to do it again.

please reminde me where he did that, because I remeber Mycrof covering up the dead people with a plane, but not the inverse, as well as Irene, who was (if memory serves me well) never dead to begin with, only to sherlock whiel everyone knew otherwise. then there is the fact that faking another's death (while you can control teh circumstances) is hard enough (except Mycroft who obviously has the connections to pull it off), let alone your own in a public place (which due to the meddling of people would be a rather astonishing feat...

Sunken Valley
2012-01-17, 12:42 PM
please reminde me where he did that, because I remeber Mycrof covering up the dead people with a plane, but not the inverse, as well as Irene, who was (if memory serves me well) never dead to begin with, only to sherlock whiel everyone knew otherwise. then there is the fact that faking another's death (while you can control teh circumstances) is hard enough (except Mycroft who obviously has the connections to pull it off), let alone your own in a public place (which due to the meddling of people would be a rather astonishing feat...

At the end when we see Sherlock saved Irene from the terrorists. Mycroft tells John Irene was beheaded and said it was really her " it would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me". And it did.

Weezer
2012-01-17, 12:49 PM
At the end when we see Sherlock saved Irene from the terrorists. Mycroft tells John Irene was beheaded and said it was really her " it would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me". And it did.

Yep, what you said was what I was thinking of.

Socratov
2012-01-17, 02:18 PM
I guess I really missed that ;)

that creates my next point, what makes you think Mycroft is involved/knowing?

Goosefeather
2012-01-17, 02:19 PM
An interesting idea:
My sister just suggested to me that the ball Sherlock was playing with in a previous scene may have been foreshadowing a trick like this (http://www.rabbithat.com/mt_pulse_stop.htm).

Kato
2012-01-17, 05:45 PM
Minor detail: It's a difference to fake the death of a person in Iran (or wherever) with a body that few people will see, or in central London. Not saying Mycroft had to know but it seems weird he could fake his own death to his brother who is... well, something like THE secret service incarnate.

Weezer
2012-01-17, 06:15 PM
Minor detail: It's a difference to fake the death of a person in Iran (or wherever) with a body that few people will see, or in central London. Not saying Mycroft had to know but it seems weird he could fake his own death to his brother who is... well, something like THE secret service incarnate.


Huh, that brings up something, what about the body? In the original story this was neatly stepped around by Sherlock falling into a river, making it reasonable for it to disappear. In this case however there would be no body at all when a body would certainly be expected. How would he ever get around that? Especially in such a way that is clever enough to trick Mycroft.

Goosefeather
2012-01-17, 06:21 PM
Huh, that brings up something, what about the body? In the original story this was neatly stepped around by Sherlock falling into a river, making it reasonable for it to disappear. In this case however there would be no body at all when a body would certainly be expected. How would he ever get around that? Especially in such a way that is clever enough to trick Mycroft.

Irene Adler managed something similar in the first episode, didn't she? As I remember, it fooled Sherlock.

Weezer
2012-01-17, 06:35 PM
Irene Adler managed something similar in the first episode, didn't she? As I remember, it fooled Sherlock.

I'm not actually convinced Sherlock was fooled by Adler's body double. Can't think of any other explaination as to why he followed watson if he didn't already know/suspect Adler was still alive. Also, even assuming he was tricked there is a big difference between sherlock misidentifying a woman he saw once and Mycroft not seeing that his brother's body had been replaced.

factotum
2012-01-18, 02:47 AM
Pretty sure it was made clear:


that Mycroft had seen "Irene"'s beheaded body and believed it to be real. Don't forget, he'd seen the other fake corpse earlier in the episode, which is why he said it would take Sherlock himself to fool him a second time that way.

That being the case, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose Sherlock could have fooled Mycroft, particularly since the story could have been spun that he landed on his head to explain any slight discrepancies.

Brother Oni
2012-01-18, 06:46 AM
Pretty sure it was made clear:


That being the case, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose Sherlock could have fooled Mycroft, particularly since the story could have been spun that he landed on his head to explain any slight discrepancies.



I suppose if Molly used her influence to find a 'John Smith' unidentified corpse to replace Sherlock's in the morgue, making sure to make the head/face look like a smashed egg to prevent easy visual identification.

Would a fall from ~3 storeys be enough to inflict that sort of damage though?

Kato
2012-01-18, 06:58 AM
I suppose if Molly used her influence to find a 'John Smith' unidentified corpse to replace Sherlock's in the morgue, making sure to make the head/face look like a smashed egg to prevent easy visual identification.

Would a fall from ~3 storeys be enough to inflict that sort of damage though?



Pretty sure if you fell face first three stories on the sidewalk nobody would be able to fix your face again.

Or they went the pther way and Sherlock pretended to be dead for a longer time, even in the morgue and only got out later. Dunno.
Still, seems weird Mycroft could be fooled but whatever... it diesn't matter that much.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-18, 07:15 AM
Personally I think his trick will be something completely unexpected. Because Sherlock is where Moffat's clever brain is.

@Kato: it was Karachi, which was in Pakistan. Not Iran. No terrorist cells in Iran.

factotum
2012-01-18, 07:42 AM
Would a fall from ~3 storeys be enough to inflict that sort of damage though?



Wasn't it more like 4 stories? And even if it was only 3, they'll be quite tall floors due to it being a hospital, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a good 40 foot fall, which would imply he'd hit the ground at 30mph or more...plenty enough to cause some seriously disfiguring damage.

Brother Oni
2012-01-18, 07:52 AM
Wasn't it more like 4 stories? And even if it was only 3, they'll be quite tall floors due to it being a hospital, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a good 40 foot fall, which would imply he'd hit the ground at 30mph or more...plenty enough to cause some seriously disfiguring damage.



Yup, you're right, it's 4 stories.

Checking on Google maps' street view confirms it - Sherlock jumped near the 'Pathology' engraving on the top of the building and you can even see the small building John had to go round to see the landing site (which is an ambulance station).

Link for those interested (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=EC1A+7BE&hl=en&ll=51.517979,-0.101543&spn=0.000002,0.0012&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.57764,78.662109&vpsrc=6&hnear=EC1A+7BE,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=51.517979,-0.101543&panoid=UpRbH5oX20BVOLFnGyvDYA&cbp=12,126.4,,0,-2.59).

Omergideon
2012-01-18, 09:08 AM
Too many spoiler tags I struggle to produce myself. But still it was a fantastic series even if the final moment was not well done for me. But the dynamic between Moriarty and Holmes was excellent. Moriarty is so smart he finds the world terribly boring and goes up against Sherlock as his only potential intellectual equal. Very fun dynamic and quite intense. Especially the suicide from Moriarty.....I did not see it coming but in retrospect it makes perfect sense.

Hoping they get a 3rd series of the show.

Androgeus
2012-01-18, 09:30 AM
Hoping they get a 3rd series of the show.

There is, it was commissioned at the same time as the second series apparently. Source! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16573066)

Weezer
2012-01-18, 10:27 AM
Wasn't it more like 4 stories? And even if it was only 3, they'll be quite tall floors due to it being a hospital, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a good 40 foot fall, which would imply he'd hit the ground at 30mph or more...plenty enough to cause some seriously disfiguring damage.


The problem with this is that Watson saw Sherlock after the fall and there was no major disfigurement. I think he would notice if his friend's body went from bloody to disfigured

Gaelbert
2012-01-22, 07:24 PM
The problem with this is that Watson saw Sherlock after the fall and there was no major disfigurement. I think he would notice if his friend's body went from bloody to disfigured

Just finished watching the last episode. I've been Sherlocked, I'm afraid.

The part I thought was interesting was the corpse's face was clearly identifiable as Sherlock's. The eyes, the hair, those amazing cheekbones. There's no way I could misidentify that face. Interestingly, actually, that he'd land on his face and yet suffer next to no facial damage or disfiguration.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-22, 10:45 PM
Apparently Moffat has gone on record saying that there is a major clue that people have apparently missed, something to do with Holmes and out-of-character behavior. Also that part of the explanation process has even been filmed already.

Weezer
2012-01-22, 10:56 PM
Apparently Moffat has gone on record saying that there is a major clue that people have apparently missed, something to do with Holmes and out-of-character behavior. Also that part of the explanation process has even been filmed already.

I don't believe him. He said the same thing about the resolution of the latest season of Doctor Who, even after many people had already guessed it. It seems to be just a way of him to mess with his fans and keep people looking at/thinking about the show. Remember: Moffat lies.

DomaDoma
2012-01-23, 12:07 AM
Well, one OOC thing that nobody seems to be discussing is that horrid beat-the-screenwriter-with-a-silver-level-if-my-vision-isn't-too-blurry phone call, and I really, really hope there's a forthcoming explanation for that.

EDIT: Apparently people have been emailing Richard Brook and getting a creepy reply? Could I have a transcript?

Xondoure
2012-01-23, 01:32 AM
I don't believe him. He said the same thing about the resolution of the latest season of Doctor Who, even after many people had already guessed it. It seems to be just a way of him to mess with his fans and keep people looking at/thinking about the show. Remember: Moffat lies.

Get a big enough fan base and someone will always find the correct solution. So while saying that everyone has missed it is false, I think he just meant the entire world has not agreed on one unified how he escaped theory.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-23, 02:16 AM
Get a big enough fan base and someone will always find the correct solution. So while saying that everyone has missed it is false, I think he just meant the entire world has not agreed on one unified how he escaped theory.

To be fair in the same article he suggested he doesn't spend much time online anyway, so he could just be Moffating us. I guess we'll find out next year.

factotum
2012-01-23, 02:33 AM
Apparently Moffat has gone on record saying that there is a major clue that people have apparently missed, something to do with Holmes and out-of-character behavior.

Well, he *did* laugh out loud at one point--have we ever seen him do that before? :smallconfused:

Sunken Valley
2012-01-23, 03:08 AM
I don't believe him. He said the same thing about the resolution of the latest season of Doctor Who, even after many people had already guessed it. It seems to be just a way of him to mess with his fans and keep people looking at/thinking about the show. Remember: Moffat lies.

No, that's what he wants you to think. He's double bluffing you.

Kato
2012-01-23, 12:26 PM
Well... apart from some minor slips... the really ooc stuff I noticed was Sherlock's confession to Watson. Why would he tell him that lie? Sherlock wouldn't truly care whether Watson thinks him an imposter or not, or rather whether he weeps for him or not because he thinks he lost a friend and genius or a liar who played him. Since we know (or can be really, really sure) he is not the imposter he claimed to be he probably wanted to... alienate(?) Watson for... some reason. Maybe it was supossed to be ahint saying "That's not me, I need to say this to..." or he wanted Watson NOT to think of him as a friend and not look for him/check on him oo much afterwards. Oooor something totally different.

Or Moff is screwing with us. But I don't like to think so.

DomaDoma
2012-01-23, 02:36 PM
The really OOC part being, of course, the way it flies in the face of Sherlock's all-consuming determination to be right. But the thing is, I don't see how he would foresee a sure outcome from that; he was rattled enough earlier in the episode that he was convinced Watson was doubting him when he clearly wasn't. I guess that would be part of why he showed up to check on things, though...

ThePhantasm
2012-01-23, 03:52 PM
I think I figured part of it out. Stop me if someone has already said this.

While rewatching the ep I noticed that there is a truck of what appears to be laundry or pillows near the sidewalk before Sherlock jumps. After he jumps and Watson gets back up, you see the truck at the top of the screen drive away. My theory is that Sherlock jumped into the truck. The dead body was supplied by Molly and thrown from the truck to the sidewalk. A dazed (from the bike) and shocked Watson failed to notice the switch.

DomaDoma
2012-01-23, 05:23 PM
Oh I DO like that theory, and it's not as though they added in that bit just for the hell of it. I'm glad someone's up to a re-watch! (And the points Gaelbert brought up could be artistic license; we have heard far more ridiculous from published Holmesian scholars *coughPortugal*.)

Brother Oni
2012-01-23, 05:58 PM
I think I figured part of it out. Stop me if someone has already said this.

Yup, I did. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12540712&postcount=75)

Sherlock's face is very distinctive and he himself would have had to lie there on the pavement, pretending to be dead.

Somebody also noted that a fall from that height onto his head should have resulted in his brains and skull being splattered all over the pavement like a dropped egg, rather than just lots of blood.

I think Molly's dead body was probably substituted when Sherlock got into the morgue and probably more suitably damaged so that the injuries would be more consistent with the fall. It'd also give a very good reason for a closed coffin funeral, thus hiding the fact that it's not Sherlock's body in the there.

BRC
2012-01-23, 06:48 PM
Concerning the Phone Call

I really don't get it. First of all, why would Holmes want Watson to think he was a fraud. At this point Moriarty was dead, so there was no reason not to just tell him the truth, that Moriarty was forcing him to kill himself.
Secondly, there is no way Watson would be convinced by that. Exactly two people knew that Watson was going to talk to Holmes, Watson, and the Mutual Friend. How could Holmes have "Researched" Watson before they met? I'm not sure of the timeframe between Watson bumping into the mutual friend, and him meeting holmes.


Also, I don't get Moriarty's plan.
The plan was to make it look like Holmes "Invented" Moriarty, and staged all the crimes he solved so he could look good solving them, thus making him a "Fraudulent Genius".

However, that creates a narrative in which Holmes is MORE brilliant than Moriarty, because not only was Holmes able to plan countless crimes that stumped the police and run a vast criminal empire, he was able to do it all via a proxy and without Watson noticing anything wrong. Moriarty's plan SHOULD have made Holmes seem like an even greater Genius, albeit an evil one, and Holmes cares more about impressing people with his intellect and solving puzzles than having people like him.


Plus, had Holmes simply gone to jail and professed innocence, he would have been released eventually. The police may have wanted to believe that he was evil, but they didn't really have anything to go on beyond the testimony of a single anonymous source with KNOWN criminal ties.

Had he not resisted, Holmes would have languished in jail for a month while the police dragged their feet before concluding that there was no workable evidence beyond "He's kind of creepy" and "A few detectives want it to be true".
By resisting arrest, Holmes made himself look guilty.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-23, 07:58 PM
Moriarty's Plan;
Some good thoughts. The thing to remember is that up until the meeting on the roof, Moriarty genuinely thought that Holmes was on the side of the angels as he put it. He wouldn't have thought that Holmes wouldn't mind being thought of as an Evil Genius because he was still thinking of him in a white-knight style.
There's also the point that the plan had to end in Holmes killing himself, so it's not like Holmes could have just ignored it altogether. Not safely.

That's why he ran. Because he had already figured out enough to know that was what Moriarty expected and required. He played into the narrative so that Moriarty wouldn't be aware he was half a step ahead of him. As far as I can see, anyway.

Had he not resisted, firstly Moriarty could have stepped up his efforts and potentially caused some real damage in attempting to get Holmes to react. Also, if he just sat in jail and played nice then Moriarty could have claimed that it showed he knew he was beaten, that he wasn't able to compete on his level and Holmes isn't very good at downplaying his own greatness.

Concerning the Phone Call
Good point. Holmes had pretty much already confirmed to both of them that Watson wouldn't believe any such thing. So it follows, that the message couldn't really have been for Watson's benefit. Perhaps he had reason to believe someone else would be listening in? One of Moriarty's Spotters perhaps?

BRC
2012-01-23, 08:24 PM
Concerning the Phone Call
Good point. Holmes had pretty much already confirmed to both of them that Watson wouldn't believe any such thing. So it follows, that the message couldn't really have been for Watson's benefit. Perhaps he had reason to believe someone else would be listening in? One of Moriarty's Spotters perhaps?

Hrmm, other explanation for the Phone Call

If Holmes is about to get blamed for everything Moriarty did, then the call could have been his way of protecting Watson. He knows Watson won't believe it, but that's not the point. If somebody else is listening in, and they hear Holmes confess his crimes to Watson, then they will be less inclined to think that Watson was in on it from the beginning.

If Holmes really was a criminal mastermind, the simplest explanation for how he hid it from Watson is that he didn't. By calling Watson, he's making sure that, when people try to make sense of it all, Watson comes across as just another innocent rube fooled by Sherlock Holmes.

Reluctance
2012-01-24, 03:16 AM
Moriarty blew off the back of his own head rather than let Sherlock have a third option. That's not the sign of a reasonable person hoping to gain some concession. That's the sign of a madman to whom "winning" is more important than anything else.

We've seen how Holmes gets when he's bored, and he's one of the good guys. Moriarty isn't in it for money or for fame, except insofar as those two bring him entertainment. Beating what he thought was the closest thing he had to an intellectual rival would be entertaining. What the rest of the world thought was immaterial after that.

Gaelbert
2012-01-24, 03:49 AM
You guys, you're missing it all.
Everything Moriarity said? It was true. Holmes was the evil genius and a fraud who set up crimes so he could solve them, Moriarity was just a paid actor.

Brother Oni
2012-01-24, 07:23 AM
Regarding the 'phone call, let's suppose we take the original stories at the framework for this scenario:


Just because Moriaty is dead, doesn't mean the assassins are going to stop, so if Sherlock fakes his death, then pops up a month later as if nothing had happened, they've probably got standing orders to carry out that contract.

Sherlock isn't going to tell John that he has to kill himself to save them from Moriaty's assassins for a number of reasons:

1)It means admitting that Moriaty had beat him, something that his ego probably wouldn't take, even while facing death.

2)Faking his death and letting John in on it, would mean that John would have to act as if Sherlock had died - since Sherlock knows John very well, he may believe that such an act is probably beyond his capabilities to maintain effectively for long.

3)John may go and do something stupid like go after the assassins or Moriaty's organisation. Remember that in this world, he's a former soldier which gives him Andy McNab levels of competence, rather than just being a doctor who knows how to iron his clothes properly and march in a straight line. :smalltongue:

So Sherlock fakes his death and uses the opportunity to go after the assassins and disassemble Moriaty's organisation so that they're no longer a threat.
He informs Mycroft, who aids him covertly and three years later, he reveals himself to John when he's about to catch the last important member of Moriaty's organisation (the reboot version of Col. Moran) in the opening episode of Season 3. :smalltongue:



Also, I don't get Moriarty's plan.
Had he not resisted, Holmes would have languished in jail for a month while the police dragged their feet before concluding that there was no workable evidence beyond "He's kind of creepy" and "A few detectives want it to be true".
By resisting arrest, Holmes made himself look guilty.


Actually there is - if Sherlock is discredited (remember the reporter's scoop on Sherlock as part of Moriaty's plans), then all the cases he's worked on immediately become suspect, making any convictions unsafe.
At the very least, the CPS would probably start an investigation into perjury against Sherlock (if not outright conspiracy), which would probably guarantee some prison time (30-40 cases he's had a hand in, there's bound to be something they can make stick), which results in Sherlock in jail and Moriaty winning.

Even if there isn't something suspect in any of the cases, I'm sure there's some evidence that Moriaty can manufacture to secure a conviction.


You guys, you're missing it all.
Everything Moriarity said? It was true. Holmes was the evil genius and a fraud who set up crimes so he could solve them, Moriarity was just a paid actor.

So kinda like in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen GNs, where Moriaty is a government agent in charge of the biggest crime syndicate so that HM's Government can keep tabs on the criminal underworld and Sherlock is a rogue detective turned criminal?

DigoDragon
2012-01-24, 08:13 AM
I finally got to watch the first episode of this series. I'm not sure how I feel about this verson of Holmes, but overall the "grittier" feel of the show is certainly different and interesting to me. I certainly like the premis given for Dr. Watson which explains why he stays with Holmes.

I look forward to seeing more at least. :smallsmile:

Fri
2012-01-29, 06:09 AM
Finally watched all of the second season. The scandal in belgravia is amazing, truly amazing. My favourite line was "not you, junior" scene.

Hound of baskerville... I never liked the original story from the beginning. But eh, it's fine I guess.

And the last one, it's also brilliant, though ending in a downer note. Imagine my happiness when you said that there'll be a third series.

And this.


An interesting idea:
My sister just suggested to me that the ball Sherlock was playing with in a previous scene may have been foreshadowing a trick like this (http://www.rabbithat.com/mt_pulse_stop.htm).

I can't believe I missed this rubber ball foreshadowing/trick. It's a well known trick! I did wonder why he plays with the rubber ball actually.

One thing that I kept thinking aloud while watching the last episode is this. You have Mycroft, for god's sake! Mycroft is the english government, can't he really do anything? Especially since in this series Sherlock do uses his influence somewhat more than what I remember in his usual portrayal.

What I think actually happened is this.

Sherlock did jump, but because he knows four stories isn't enough to kill him if he takes certain precautions (like landing with your feet and bending them before rolling), then after they takes him inside, molly changed the body and put him into safe custody as he recuperate.

Kato
2012-01-29, 07:14 AM
Sherlock did jump, but because he knows four stories isn't enough to kill him if he takes certain precautions (like landing with your feet and bending them before rolling), then after they takes him inside, molly changed the body and put him into safe custody as he recuperate.


Okay, I don't do parcour or anything like that but I'm pretty sure falling four stories is more than "bend your knees upon impact". Especially when landing on asphalt. I guess you could handle it but I don't think he did it just like that.

Brother Oni
2012-01-29, 07:37 AM
Okay, I don't do parcour or anything like that but I'm pretty sure falling four stories is more than "bend your knees upon impact". Especially when landing on asphalt. I guess you could handle it but I don't think he did it just like that.



Especially when he jumps from this distance: St. Barts (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=EC1A+7BE&hl=en&ll=51.517979,-0.101543&spn=0.000002,0.0012&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.57764,78.662109&vpsrc=6&hnear=EC1A+7BE,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=51.517979,-0.101543&panoid=UpRbH5oX20BVOLFnGyvDYA&cbp=12,126.4,,0,-2.59).

I don't think any amount of knee bending and rolling is going to let you walk away from a fall of that height.
Take note of the bloke standing - assuming he's 6ft tall, he only comes up to half the first storey. Looking further down the building shows a stairwell of some sort with more typically sized floors and it looks like it's substantially closer to 5 stories tall.

As I suggested earlier, I believe the precaution he took was get a van into position full of soft things and jumped into that. :smalltongue:

Fri
2012-01-30, 09:42 AM
Nah, I don't believe he'll walk away from the fall. I mean, he know he'll get horribly injured from that fall but survive. Something in that line.

Anyway, I still can't believe how bleak that last episode was. I really want to know how he'll ever regain his reputation.

I guess this is how it feels to watch Empire Strikes Back when it first camed out.

Flickerdart
2012-02-12, 10:07 PM
Sherlock's death-defying secret has finally been leaked:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FkcI4dg1W7M/TyZQnYalUHI/AAAAAAAAB44/3qS5Pyy_f2c/s1600/%D0%A8%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA+%D0%A2%D1%80% D0%B8.gif

qbit
2012-02-14, 12:57 AM
Hahah thanks for that.

Glad It wasn't real. I would have wanted to get spoilerd, but I cant help myself pressing on those buttons ;)

pita
2012-02-25, 04:18 PM
...
Now I feel stupid for not figuring that out. It was that obvious...
Can't believe I missed it.

LokeyITP
2012-05-23, 07:48 PM
The PBS versions are available here until the third week of June, probably US only but don't know. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/watch/index.html) (Shorter versions done by the production company.) Despite that, lots to love about season 2, and can never say enough about the production design.

Like Dr Who, many of the complaints about 2.1 I see here are throw-awayed in the episode, and it's pretty obvious Sherlock is aiming at the detonator :) Despite Moriarty pulling the strings, I think Adler's a pretty solid character, and arguably beat Holmes in some ways on her own.

Wondered about the ball, the biker, the truck good thoughts :)

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-05-24, 09:47 AM
I didn't notice the ball trick! I had figured that the bike and the truck had something to do with it...

Jimor
2012-05-24, 06:28 PM
My guess.

Involves some variant on the Life Net (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_net). Essentially all the people in the crowd were in on it, probably Baker St. Irregulars, catch him, then stash the net. This explains why Sherlock needed Moriarty away from the edge, and also Watson in a particular location. That's also the main thing I don't like about my theory, too many people in on it.

The ball trick does satisfy one of my other main questions, though.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-05-24, 11:25 PM
Also, I started testing out the ball-pulse thing using just my first, and it totally works.

kardar233
2012-05-25, 12:04 PM
I really want to think that Moriarty's death was also faked. Wouldn't be overly hard; blanks in the gun, Vaseline or similar in mouth to prevent heat burns and a blood packet hidden in hair at the back of the skull. Doesn't fit with his character though.

Flickerdart
2012-05-25, 12:17 PM
Moriarty dies at Reichenbach Falls. That's how the books go, and they've stayed fairly faithful to them in their own adaptationy way.

Serpentine
2012-05-25, 02:55 PM
Ooooooh, I really like the ball trick idea. Does that mean that, if we watched the series from the start again, we could nearly pinpoint the moment Sherlock* came up with his fake-death plan, and/or when he clued into Moriarty's ultimate plan?


*I started to write "the Doctor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iae-kvXu0k8)" then...

Xondoure
2012-05-25, 04:58 PM
Ooooooh, I really like the ball trick idea. Does that mean that, if we watched the series from the start again, we could nearly pinpoint the moment Sherlock* came up with his fake-death plan, and/or when he clued into Moriarty's ultimate plan?


*I started to write "the Doctor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iae-kvXu0k8)" then...

That's the best thing I've seen all day.

Dienekes
2012-05-25, 05:13 PM
Ooooooh, I really like the ball trick idea. Does that mean that, if we watched the series from the start again, we could nearly pinpoint the moment Sherlock* came up with his fake-death plan, and/or when he clued into Moriarty's ultimate plan?


*I started to write "the Doctor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iae-kvXu0k8)" then...

And now I really want Cumberbatch to be the 12th Doctor.

Goosefeather
2012-05-25, 09:33 PM
And now I really want Cumberbatch to be the 12th Doctor.

I forget where I read it, but I heard somewhere that Cumberbatch and Matt Smith both originally auditioned for the other's part, but Moffat felt they'd do better this way around.

averagejoe
2012-05-29, 01:02 PM
The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.