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DarthArminius
2012-01-03, 12:50 PM
Vaarsuvius'es family somehow ends up in Tamriel via the machinations of a servant of Alduin. Dovahkiin rescues Vaarsuvius'es family, just as Vaarsuvius arrives to discover that a Draugr preist was going to sacrifice his family to the evil dragon god. Discovering that he will be unable to make it back to his own dimension, Vaarsuvius decides to hunt down and kill Alduin. Assume that Vaarsuvius can somehow fight and kill Alduin like the Dovahkiin if he fights him.

Who would win in the battle, Alduin, or Vaarsuvius?

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Alduin

Seppl
2012-01-03, 02:38 PM
Few things in all of fiction can resist the raw power of an epic D&D wizard, even one using suboptimal tactics as V does. And Alduin just seems to be a large dragon with some magic powers (I didnt' play Skyrim, correct me if I'm wrong). We already know how this plays out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html).

DarthArminius
2012-01-03, 02:42 PM
Few things in all of fiction can resist the raw power of an epic D&D wizard, even one using suboptimal tactics as V does. And Alduin just seems to be a large dragon with some magic powers (I didnt' play Skyrim, correct me if I'm wrong). We already know how this plays out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html).

Be careful, if you wish to know more about Alduin, there are spoilers below.

Familiecide is the same strip that gave me the idea to make this thread. Alduin required three ancient heroes from the Skyrim's version of Valhalla, in addition to Dovahkiin, a dragon within a mortal form, to kill. This required a magical spell called "Dragon Rend" to weaken Alduin to be vulnerable enough to harm. Alduin is not just a powerful dragon, he's the oldest dragon in all of Tamriel, not counting Akatosh, the god of time. In addition, Alduin is a Shiva-esque destroyer god who is prophecied to destroy the world. The only reason the Dovahkiin can kill him in the game is because Alduin is trying to destroy it early.

Seppl
2012-01-03, 04:24 PM
Then Alduin is either completely invulnerable because V does not have "Dragon Rend" or a random encounter if you rule that he can somehow be hurt by magic. Evil V is way more powerful than even four heroes of legend from TES universe. Each of them might be a match for normal V, but not for evil V. We are talking about a universe where summoning something like a fire elemental or an elemental area of effect spell are considered the pinnacle of magic power. That's 5th or 6th level spells in D&D. Evil V would just toy around as she did with the black dragon.

If you want to get creative, V could use a wish (or maybe a gate) to get the help of one these heroes and have him cast Dragon Rend. After that it's timestop, hurty stuff, quickened hurty stuff, buff, quickened buff, more hurty stuff, even more quickened hurty stuff, save affecting spell, quickened save affecting spell, timestop ends, disintegrate, game over.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-04, 12:35 AM
Nah, see, Dragon Rend is merely to force a Dragon to land. (Oh, NPC's big it up about how powerful and terrible it is, but really that's all it does. And half the time it barely does that). You need Dragon-Rend to fight Alduin because he runs away otherwise, and it's simple enough to fight him with arrows and sword otherwise.

If you're throwing in Epic D&D magic, all you really need to worry about is if you can destroy/consume his soul.
But given that Alduin is essentially protected by plot, it's not like the Dohvakin gets to actually do that either, so any difficulty V might have with that is beside the point.

Flickerdart
2012-01-04, 11:33 PM
Dragon Rend doesn't work - the three heroes used it on him, and they still had to resort to the elder scroll to finish that fight. So V could just churn out a ridiculous Time Hop using epic magic, and then continue about his daily life.

shadow_archmagi
2012-01-04, 11:47 PM
Yeah, Dragonrend is pretty weak, all told. Has anyone checked whether it's theoretically possible to kill Alduin without Dragonrend? (After all, you could just, like, shoot him with arrows, right?)

Alleran
2012-01-05, 08:42 AM
Yeah, Dragonrend is pretty weak, all told. Has anyone checked whether it's theoretically possible to kill Alduin without Dragonrend? (After all, you could just, like, shoot him with arrows, right?)
You can't. He has a script that makes him invulnerable when he's not under the effect of Dragonrend. Alduin is also the creator-destroyer god. He ends all of existence so that the next kalpa (cycle of the world) will begin. Even at the end of the MQ,
you don't actually kill him. You don't get his soul, and if you talk to Arngeir and others afterward, they all but state that he'll be back at the end of the kalpa to eat Nirn (literally, eat it - "World-Eater" isn't just metaphorical/figurative) anyway. You just let things keep on going for a little while longer.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-05, 08:50 AM
I don't know enough about TESverse to opinionize decisively, but if it's true that things like summoning a fire elemental are at the top-end of Skyrim/TES arcane magic, then barring Invincible Plot Armor(TM), Soulspliced Vaarsuvius will stomp all over this fight without putting boots on.

Flickerdart
2012-01-05, 12:52 PM
Summoning an atronach isn't especially difficult (you can get the spell quite early on) and they're quite a bit more formidable than elementals of their size would be. Other spells (Soul Trap, for instance) are far easier to cast than their D&D equivalents (Trap the Soul).
If Alduin were to play up his actual knowledge of the Shouts (since he's a dragon and speaks their language, so he should theoretically be able to do all of them) then he would be more formidable than he actually is in the game, using stuff like Ice Form to freeze V with no save. In-game, I don't believe he ever actually does this - but then V doesn't cast every single arcane spell ever, either.
If V hadn't lost his necromancer so quickly, then it could get interesting - Alduin and Vaarsuvius could get into a necromancy battle. There are plenty of dragons out there that the Dragonborn has already de-souled (for V) and plenty more that are still waiting to be resurrected (for Alduin). The advantage would probably go to Alduin here (since skeletal dragons cannot fly), and we've seen exactly how well V handles multiple opponents, even if some are far below his level. If Alduin managed to leverage his resurrection power, and used Shouts properly, then I would place my bets on him - but otherwise, V wins.

Lamech
2012-01-05, 05:51 PM
Alduin would win. He can't be hurt without dragonrend and V lacks it. Hence, a clear victory.
Its also possible that Alduin will be able to attack and shout fast enough to keep V from casting.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-05, 06:11 PM
Alduin would win. He can't be hurt without dragonrend and V lacks it. Hence, a clear victory.
Its also possible that Alduin will be able to attack and shout fast enough to keep V from casting.

Wish: Duplicate the effects of the spell Dragonrend.

If it's decided to be higher than 7th level (the description does make it sound like a very low-DC Epic ritual), then

Epic Wish: Duplicate the effects of the spell Dragonrend, or just independently research Dragonrend himself, because an epic wizard can do that.

One of these has to happen because the OP states:


Assume that Vaarsuvius can somehow fight and kill Alduin like the Dovahkiin if he fights him.

So one way or another, the Plot Shield Alduin has can be breached by V.

Neo_Leviathan
2012-01-05, 06:17 PM
After breaching the plot shield it's a whitewash.
Empowered, Maximised Shivering Touch. BAM, helpless dragon.

Plus.. considering that my mage in Skyrim just sat there throwing fireballs at Alduin and chain stunning him to death, I doubt a D&D wizard would have any issues.

Lamech
2012-01-05, 06:53 PM
Wish: Duplicate the effects of the spell Dragonrend.

If it's decided to be higher than 7th level (the description does make it sound like a very low-DC Epic ritual), then

Epic Wish: Duplicate the effects of the spell Dragonrend, or just independently research Dragonrend himself, because an epic wizard can do that.

One of these has to happen because the OP states:

So one way or another, the Plot Shield Alduin has can be breached by V.
I doubt he has epic wish, and he definitely doesn't have the time, GP or XP to independently research Dragonrend. Regardless its not even a spell. Also important to note: You could only defeat Alduin after traveling to the afterlife. And even then you could only fight him with the help of three other people. Unless V somehow figures everything out in the time it takes for his soul splice to run out AND he somehow convinces the people he needs to help him he is the Dovakin its pointless.
I suppose if you strip Alduin of all those things, then V only has to put up a target being massively faster than him (don't forget no astral plane for teleportation), all those shouts (Meteor Swarm should keep V from casting spells in fact), and V's inability to use his magic effectively.

Seppl
2012-01-05, 08:09 PM
I doubt he has epic wish, and he definitely doesn't have the time, GP or XP to independently research Dragonrend. Regardless its not even a spell. Also important to note: You could only defeat Alduin after traveling to the afterlife. And even then you could only fight him with the help of three other people. Unless V somehow figures everything out in the time it takes for his soul splice to run out AND he somehow convinces the people he needs to help him he is the Dovakin its pointless.
I suppose if you strip Alduin of all those things, then V only has to put up a target being massively faster than him (don't forget no astral plane for teleportation), all those shouts (Meteor Swarm should keep V from casting spells in fact), and V's inability to use his magic effectively.

Just because you do it in game does not mean it's necessary. Do the three helpers actually do something unique? If they just help you fighting the dragon then V can easily do without help. From what I see from the Wiki and from Youtube it's just a dragon with an impressive backstory. It flies, spits fire, has a nasty bite. V can do two of these things and more. If the dragon is not protected by plot, it's toast. Or dust. Or ice. Or maybe V will use sonic, just for fun. If it is protected by plot, then it's not a versus thread, it's a railroaded story.

pffh
2012-01-05, 08:36 PM
Just because you do it in game does not mean it's necessary. Do the three helpers actually do something unique? If they just help you fighting the dragon then V can easily do without help. From what I see from the Wiki and from Youtube it's just a dragon with an impressive backstory. It flies, spits fire, has a nasty bite. V can do two of these things and more. If the dragon is not protected by plot, it's toast. Or dust. Or ice. Or maybe V will use sonic, just for fun. If it is protected by plot, then it's not a versus thread, it's a railroaded story.

Problem with alduin in the game is that he actually doesn't use all the shouts he should be able to use. Stuff like summon animals, freeze the target solid(no save or SR), blowing them away, becoming etheral, slowing time and many more from the game (or from the lore where armies have been literally shouted apart and cities leveled to the ground)

Urist
2012-01-05, 08:42 PM
If it is protected by plot, then it's not a versus thread, it's a railroaded story.

This. Regardless of Alduin's demonstrated power, he is essentially a proto-god, destined to destroy Nim at the end of time. The Dragonborn "kills" him, but even that does not end with the absorption of his soul, as it has with other dragons. Instead, Paarnurthurax and Arngeir say that he will likely return yet again at the end of time to devour the world as is his destiny, and the the Dragonborn only stopped him from destroying the world before its time.

As for lore power if we ignore plot armor, the power of his Voice, much tuned down so as to make it a fight and not instant death, would make him a fair match for at least a high-level wizard. The Voices of mortals(Greybeards, Tiber Septim) are supposedly powerful enough to destroy cities and shatter armies, and to kill with a careless whisper. As a dragon, he literally speaks using the Voice, all the time, at a much higher level then any mortal could.

Lamech
2012-01-05, 08:50 PM
Just because you do it in game does not mean it's necessary. Do the three helpers actually do something unique? If they just help you fighting the dragon then V can easily do without help. From what I see from the Wiki and from Youtube it's just a dragon with an impressive backstory. It flies, spits fire, has a nasty bite. V can do two of these things and more. If the dragon is not protected by plot, it's toast. Or dust. Or ice. Or maybe V will use sonic, just for fun. If it is protected by plot, then it's not a versus thread, it's a railroaded story.

Indeed they do, they help dispel Alduin's soul snare. He simply wasn't showing up to deal with you otherwise. Even if Alduin counts as Dragonrended to V it still won't be enough to kill him. You must fight him in the afterlife. And Alduin won't do that unless you can break his soul snare. Which V can't.

And even if all that happens Alduin can still call up a meteor swarm (it hits constantly, and IIRC knocks you around as well) which will likely keep V from casting (low concentration and all that), and proceed to rip him apart.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-05, 10:17 PM
Dimensional Anchor, Disintegrate. Next Dragon plz. It's hard to over-state how not-useful Dragonrend is, except as the plot coupon to avoid him simply running away via railroad.

Evil Super-powered Wizard Vaarsuvius has dozens of ways to duplicate or negate the need for Dragonrend.

And even if Alduin is a God, it doesn't mean much. Gods Die in the Elder Scrolls. It would probably just mean Vaarsuvius gets to turn up at the end of creation to consume the world.

Lamech
2012-01-05, 10:47 PM
Dimensional Anchor, Disintegrate. Next Dragon plz. It's hard to over-state how not-useful Dragonrend is, except as the plot coupon to avoid him simply running away via railroad.

Evil Super-powered Wizard Vaarsuvius has dozens of ways to duplicate or negate the need for Dragonrend.

And even if Alduin is a God, it doesn't mean much. Gods Die in the Elder Scrolls. It would probably just mean Vaarsuvius gets to turn up at the end of creation to consume the world.

And to you know, make him vulnerable to attacks.

But yes, the fact that V would try exactly that is why he might lose. He fights like a moron. He waits to get into combat to cast his buffs for crying out loud. A single disintegrate isn't enough to kill Alduin. In fact Alduin spends almost all of his time high in the sky, so V would be fighting him there.
At this point Alduin either drops a Meteor Swarm shout on V, or a force shout on V. Either send him crashing to earth and the fall kill him.

Urist
2012-01-06, 12:00 AM
Dimensional Anchor, Disintegrate. Next Dragon plz. It's hard to over-state how not-useful Dragonrend is, except as the plot coupon to avoid him simply running away via railroad.

Evil Super-powered Wizard Vaarsuvius has dozens of ways to duplicate or negate the need for Dragonrend.

And even if Alduin is a God, it doesn't mean much. Gods Die in the Elder Scrolls. It would probably just mean Vaarsuvius gets to turn up at the end of creation to consume the world.

True gods don't die in the Elder Scrolls. Fake gods, Daedra, and the Tribunal do, but not the Divines. However, it is heavily implied that Alduin is an essential part of creation. Destroying him is destroying destiny, fate, and causality. Akatosh will not be happy.

Again, beyond silly plot-shields, the Alduin of the lore(and the Greybeards of the lore) have far more powerful Voices then they do in game, both for technical reasons and fairness reasons. I mean, when the Greybeards(mortals) other than Arngeir speak, the whole mountain of High Hrothgar shakes and rings like a bell. They can kill with an errant syllable. They can shout down cities and destroy armies with a few words, teleport, summon avatars of a god, and speak to people hundreds of miles away(not present in the game for technical, plot, and fairness reasons, of course, but official in the lore). Sounds like a wizard, doesn't it? Alduin is capable of eating these guys for breakfast. He won't go down easily.

Sanguine
2012-01-06, 12:27 AM
True gods don't die in the Elder Scrolls. Fake gods, Daedra, and the Tribunal do, but not the Divines.

The only difference between a Daedra and an Aedra(which is what the Divines are) is that the Aedra took part in the creation of Nirn thus weakening themselves. Also Lorkhan died, though admittedly at the hands of other gods and he's still around even though he's dead.

On an unrelated note when has a Daedra ever died? Even the lesser Daedra like Atronachs and Dremora can't really be killed. They merely have their physical form destroyed which sends their essence back to Oblivion where it will eventually create a new form. The only example I can think of is Mehrunes Dagon at the end of Oblivion and that was at the hands of another god.

pffh
2012-01-06, 05:28 AM
The only example I can think of is Mehrunes Dagon at the end of Oblivion and that was at the hands of another god.

And he didn't die he's still around in oblivion waiting for a new body to form. So if you need to permanently destroy your foe to win then V is out of luck since that's not going to happen for either the daedra or the aedra (which the dragons are a part of)

Seppl
2012-01-06, 09:12 AM
And he didn't die he's still around in oblivion waiting for a new body to form. So if you need to permanently destroy your foe to win then V is out of luck since that's not going to happen for either the daedra or the aedra (which the dragons are a part of)

The necromancer soul (Haerta?) seems like the type who might have created an epic spell for just this case.

Urist
2012-01-06, 09:22 AM
The only difference between a Daedra and an Aedra(which is what the Divines are) is that the Aedra took part in the creation of Nirn thus weakening themselves. Also Lorkhan died, though admittedly at the hands of other gods and he's still around even though he's dead.

On an unrelated note when has a Daedra ever died? Even the lesser Daedra like Atronachs and Dremora can't really be killed. They merely have their physical form destroyed which sends their essence back to Oblivion where it will eventually create a new form. The only example I can think of is Mehrunes Dagon at the end of Oblivion and that was at the hands of another god.

They weakened themselves in some ways, but strengthened themselves in many ways, as well. They are far more fueled by worship than Daedra, even though Daedra are immensely powerful. Lorkhan is sort of dead, but not really. The only god I can think of that was "killed" was Trinimac, who was eaten by Boethiah and his essence cannibalized into Malacath.



The necromancer soul (Haerta?) seems like the type who might have created an epic spell for just this case.

A spell to eliminate a metaphysical principle? Alduin is both a creature and an integral part of the world. You might as well try to kill death itself.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-06, 10:37 AM
A spell to eliminate a metaphysical principle? Alduin is both a creature and an integral part of the world. You might as well try to kill death itself.

I hate to do this, but someone go fetch a copy of the Immortals' Handbook. It has stats for Death in it.:smallcool:

Urist
2012-01-06, 11:45 AM
And of course Terry Pratchet would agree:smallbiggrin:. However, killing Death is rather different than killing death. One is a creature, one is part of the fundamental forces of the universe.

Seppl
2012-01-06, 02:17 PM
But we are talking about the creature Alduin, aren't we? And said creature ist just a dragon with a bit of magic and some special powers. Flying away will not help him, V can fly, too. Then, depending about how the creatures invulverability works exactly, something like Disjuction or Limited Wish (duplicating Dragon Rend) could make it vulnerable. Speaking of vulnerability: V has probably prepared some protection spells. The spells used against the ABD and pretection from energy come to mind, making V almost invulnerable unless Alduin has some means of dispelling.

If you really want to destroy the soul, V would notice that her victory was not complete and search the world for its most valuable black saphire. Maybe Azura or Sheogorath will help. When V and Alduin fight the next time, he could become soul trapped.

Urist
2012-01-06, 02:39 PM
But we are talking about the creature Alduin, aren't we? And said creature ist just a dragon with a bit of magic and some special powers.

Not really. Said creature has a physical representation, yes, but he is also close to a deity in that the very idea of him has power. He is fated to destroy Nim at the end of time, and is the literal son of Akatosh, the Dragon-God of Time itself. He doesn't have the sobriquet "World Eater" for nothing. In this regard, he has a physical form that can be defeated, but even the Dovahkin, the Dragonborn, capable of absorbing the souls of the most powerful dragons as an intrinsic quality, cannot do so to Alduin. At the end of Skyrim, there are strong indications that he may be defeated, and he may be "dead" for now, but for creatures such as him in the Elder Scrolls, death doesn't mean very much. Essentially, he has PLOT ARMOR of the highest order.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-06, 02:45 PM
So which one is the actual opponent in this fight? Alduin the dragon, or Alduin the cosmic inevitability?

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-06, 04:22 PM
Two notes;
Firstly, you first fight Alduin without Dragonrend, without an Elder Scroll, without anything. And presumably regardless of your overall style, you will be strong enough to drive him off, to hurt him enough that he flees that plane of existence to recover, power up, and/or lick his wounds devouring the eternal souls of dead nords. I'm not buying the whole Invincible thing.

Secondly the Dovahkin, both his access to shouts and his ability to destroy dragon-souls and thus gain their power is, by theme and insinuation, derived from Dragons themselves in some way.
So the fact that the Dovahkin can't automatically devour Alduin's soul isn't really the most reliable gauge of whether Alduin's soul can actually be destroyed.

Oh, and he's called the world eater. But so far, he's zero for two on attempts to live up to his name. Just because a few people say that he eventually will doesn't mean they're right.
Some people are just habitual losers.

[edit]
Re:Below
Well, that's what they thought the first time round.
Then after emerging from the Time-Stream, the Dovahkin actually defeats him. He just doesn't obliterate his entire soul.

t209
2012-01-06, 04:23 PM
Alduin
Cannot be defeated, only he can be trapped in the timestream!

Sanguine
2012-01-06, 04:50 PM
Two notes;
Firstly, you first fight Alduin without Dragonrend, without an Elder Scroll, without anything. And presumably regardless of your overall style, you will be strong enough to drive him off, to hurt him enough that he flees that plane of existence to recover, power up, and/or lick his wounds devouring the eternal souls of dead nords. I'm not buying the whole Invincible thing.

Uhm no.

The first time you fight him you have both Dragonrend and the Elder Scroll. Unless you are talking about when you find out he's the one bringing Dragons back. In which case I remember it as him ordering the other Dragon to kill me and then swanning off.

Lamech
2012-01-06, 05:01 PM
Two notes;
Firstly, you first fight Alduin without Dragonrend, without an Elder Scroll, without anything. And presumably regardless of your overall style, you will be strong enough to drive him off, to hurt him enough that he flees that plane of existence to recover, power up, and/or lick his wounds devouring the eternal souls of dead nords. I'm not buying the whole Invincible thing.

Secondly the Dovahkin, both his access to shouts and his ability to destroy dragon-souls and thus gain their power is, by theme and insinuation, derived from Dragons themselves in some way.
So the fact that the Dovahkin can't automatically devour Alduin's soul isn't really the most reliable gauge of whether Alduin's soul can actually be destroyed.

Oh, and he's called the world eater. But so far, he's zero for two on attempts to live up to his name. Just because a few people say that he eventually will doesn't mean they're right.
Some people are just habitual losers.

[edit]
Re:Below
Well, that's what they thought the first time round.
Then after emerging from the Time-Stream, the Dovahkin actually defeats him. He just doesn't obliterate his entire soul.

Nope. You have dragonrend when you fight him and the elder scroll. He is invulnerable and won't land without dragonrend. Now if we remove Alduin's invulnerability, V could potentially fly up to Alduin and attempt to lay the smack down just like he did to the black dragon. Now if V was smart this would probably work, but since he fights terribly as evidenced by the comic he'll probably end up getting smacked down by a meteor and killed by falling damage.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-06, 05:38 PM
Uhm no.

The first time you fight him you have both Dragonrend and the Elder Scroll. Unless you are talking about when you find out he's the one bringing Dragons back. In which case I remember it as him ordering the other Dragon to kill me and then swanning off.

For some reason, I remembered it differently. No matter. Second point stands, at least.

pffh
2012-01-06, 11:11 PM
For some reason, I remembered it differently. No matter. Second point stands, at least.

No it doesn't since he has eaten the world countless times before the dragonborne came and will eat it again at the end of time. The only thing the dragonborne did was prevent him from eating the world before its time. The name the world eater is not some metaphor he literally eats the world and a new world is born from the remains of the old.

Flickerdart
2012-01-07, 12:01 AM
he literally eats the world and a new world is born from the remains of the old.
Wait...the world is made of dragon poops? No wonder Oblivion was so brown.

t209
2012-01-08, 06:42 PM
By the way if V use familicide on Alduin,
Akatosh (Alduin's dad) will die and Nirn will be toast!

DarthArminius
2012-01-08, 08:24 PM
By the way if V use familicide on Alduin,
Akatosh (Alduin's dad) will die and Nirn will be toast!

It'd be kind of hard to survive something like that. :/

Jayngfet
2012-01-08, 08:43 PM
V is toast.

Either we bring up gameplay and Alduin is invincible because V is literally incapable of using the technique needed to bring him down.

Or we bring up fluff where Alduin is strong enough to level cities into nothing and devours souls in front of the god they worship without fear of retribution. And also is incapable of using the technique needed to bring him down.

Remember it wasn't just a dragonborn needed to take him down, there were plenty of those in the afterlife since no less than half a dozen of them were in not-valhalla that bothered even mentioning what they were.

It was an artifact older than the universe itself, a technique made to slaughter immortals specifically, and a group of epic heroes with the very specific skillset out of all the warriors who'd ever died ever, and the best weapons you can ever find.

Just to stall him for an unknown amount of time.

Killing him plain isn't happening.

Mystic Muse
2012-01-09, 03:29 AM
By the way if V use familicide on Alduin,
Akatosh (Alduin's dad) will die and Nirn will be toast!

Actually...I'm pretty sure Familicide only goes forward on the family line, not backwards. Even if it did go backwards, Tiamat is definitely immune, so Akatosh would likely be too. This assumes that Alduin can even be affected, seeing as how he's a god.

Gullintanni
2012-01-09, 01:43 PM
V is toast.

Either we bring up gameplay and Alduin is invincible because V is literally incapable of using the technique needed to bring him down.

Or we bring up fluff where Alduin is strong enough to level cities into nothing and devours souls in front of the god they worship without fear of retribution. And also is incapable of using the technique needed to bring him down.

Remember it wasn't just a dragonborn needed to take him down, there were plenty of those in the afterlife since no less than half a dozen of them were in not-valhalla that bothered even mentioning what they were.

It was an artifact older than the universe itself, a technique made to slaughter immortals specifically, and a group of epic heroes with the very specific skillset out of all the warriors who'd ever died ever, and the best weapons you can ever find.

Just to stall him for an unknown amount of time.

Killing him plain isn't happening.

This seems like a terribly apt characterization of the stakes involved in this battle. I suspect that if we go by mechanics, V would win the first few battles, but eventually be worn down. Alduin's unkillable, so all he'd have to do is keep V from resting.

If Alduin is indeed a god level immortal, then Divine Rank 0 provides some pretty serious benefits too. Assuming we lowball his DR. Go much higher than that and it isn't even a contest anymore.

Mikeavelli
2012-01-09, 07:38 PM
I dunno guys,

Saber Cats were more successful at killing me than Dragons ever were.

I'ma have to give this one to Darth V

Gullintanni
2012-01-10, 09:37 AM
I dunno guys,

Saber Cats were more successful at killing me than Dragons ever were.

I'ma have to give this one to Darth V

If you're going to bring gameplay mechanics into the equation, how successful were you at killing Alduin without Dragonrend? :smalltongue:

Chess435
2012-01-11, 05:46 PM
I hate to do this, but someone go fetch a copy of the Immortals' Handbook. It has stats for Death in it.:smallcool:

Oh god.
*opens bestiary pdf*

Huh, I don't see it in here. The closest thing in here are either void dragons or elder unelementals. (The unelementals could be handled easily by an epic wizard who knew what they were doing, but as for even a wyrmling void dragon...... lets just say they have CL 64, and a breath weapon that will utterly annihilate you, with a Reflex save for only being half utterly annihilated. Funnily enough, they still have 10 Dex.)[/takingglyphstoneseriously]

Pie Guy
2012-01-11, 11:12 PM
Eh, same kill strategy with all dragons: Celerity + Maximized Shivering Touch.

Edit: Unless they have immunity to cold, as I don't actually have the book to look at.

Flickerdart
2012-01-11, 11:32 PM
Eh, same kill strategy with all dragons: Celerity + Maximized Shivering Touch.

Edit: Unless they have immunity to cold, as I don't actually have the book to look at.
Alduin is, in D&D terms, immune to ability damage due to his divinity.

Pie Guy
2012-01-12, 11:39 AM
Alduin is, in D&D terms, immune to ability damage due to his divinity.

I was referring to the void dragon, but is Alduin immune to elemental damage in Skyrim?

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-12, 11:44 AM
If you want to get creative, V could use a wish (or maybe a gate) to get the help of one these heroes and have him cast Dragon Rend. After that it's timestop, hurty stuff, quickened hurty stuff, buff, quickened buff, more hurty stuff, even more quickened hurty stuff, save affecting spell, quickened save affecting spell, timestop ends, disintegrate, game over.

V could even use wish to duplicate Dragon Rend's effects, immediately...wish is quite powerful.

Jayngfet
2012-01-12, 03:31 PM
V could even use wish to duplicate Dragon Rend's effects, immediately...wish is quite powerful.

But Dragonrend isn't a spell, so it's effects can't exactly be duplicated.

V can't exactly just up and learn it because the requirements for learning Dragonrend quickly are to be dragonborn and have the proper words and souls.

V isn't dragonborn, and nobody alive except the main character knows Dragonrend. It just plain can't be learned without a specific artifact in a specific place and a specific time.

This all being information V doesn't know.

Sanguine
2012-01-12, 03:42 PM
V can't exactly just up and learn it because the requirements for learning Dragonrend quickly are to be dragonborn and have the proper words and souls

Not true. First, you don't actually spend any spend any souls when learning Dragonren. Presumably you take the knowledge from the Tongues like when the Greybeards teach you Unrelenting Force or Paarthunax teaches you Fire Breath. Though they didn't show the special effect normally associated with that so this is merely conjecture. Second, the Tongues who banished Alduin were just that. Tongues. They were not Dragonborn.Of course only a Nord can become a Tongue and last I checked V was an elf. So your point stilll stands. You need to be a Nord or a Dragonborn and V is neither.

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-12, 03:50 PM
But Dragonrend isn't a spell, so it's effects can't exactly be duplicated.

V can't exactly just up and learn it because the requirements for learning Dragonrend quickly are to be dragonborn and have the proper words and souls.

V isn't dragonborn, and nobody alive except the main character knows Dragonrend. It just plain can't be learned without a specific artifact in a specific place and a specific time.

This all being information V doesn't know.

Wish explicitly allows "more powerful effects" (in other words, non-spells) to be performed through it. She doesn't even need to duplicate it, she could just go ahead and make stuff up.

Not to mention, there are spells she could cast that are literally impenetrable defenses (The Otiluke's Sphere spells come to mind, and energy transformation field as well)

Jayngfet
2012-01-12, 04:54 PM
Not true. First, you don't actually spend any spend any souls when learning Dragonren. Presumably you take the knowledge from the Tongues like when the Greybeards teach you Unrelenting Force or Paarthunax teaches you Fire Breath. Though they didn't show the special effect normally associated with that so this is merely conjecture. Second, the Tongues who banished Alduin were just that. Tongues. They were not Dragonborn.Of course only a Nord can become a Tongue and last I checked V was an elf. So your point stilll stands. You need to be a Nord or a Dragonborn and V is neither.


Of course I never said ONLY a Dragonborn could learn dragonrend, just that they were the only ones who could do it fast enough.

Remember that for a non Dragonborn it usually takes years to make headway with the voice. Hence why the Greybeards have grey beards and Ulfric Stormcloak left them.

Also, it depends on the version of wish we're operating under. Which edition and book in particular is the instance of Wish V is casting from?

Lamech
2012-01-12, 04:58 PM
But more powerful effects are subject to partial fulfillment and overly literal interpretations.

So V could wish "Alduin is affected in such a way as to duplicate a Dragonrend shout" then watch the wish delete Dragonrend and instead have Alduin be affected by the storm call shout, and even worse have the effect on Alduin be that the lighting bolts avoid him. Followed by dying to a lighting bolt.

There is simply no way to safely use the "more powerful effects" clause of a wish spell.

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-12, 05:37 PM
But more powerful effects are subject to partial fulfillment and overly literal interpretations.

So V could wish "Alduin is affected in such a way as to duplicate a Dragonrend shout" then watch the wish delete Dragonrend and instead have Alduin be affected by the storm call shout, and even worse have the effect on Alduin be that the lighting bolts avoid him. Followed by dying to a lighting bolt.

There is simply no way to safely use the "more powerful effects" clause of a wish spell.

Of course, there's always using those immense numbers of unbreakable defense spells till V could do something good.

Possibly even using Energy Transformation field to convert Alduin's power effects into a large number of wishes.

Gullintanni
2012-01-12, 06:57 PM
Of course, there's always using those immense numbers of unbreakable defense spells till V could do something good.

Possibly even using Energy Transformation field to convert Alduin's power effects into a large number of wishes.

Playing schrodinger's wizard doesn't really work well with V pre-loss to Xykon. V, before being humbled, was colossally stupid with hir spell choices. I'd expect V's behaviour to be no different fighting Alduin, and it's that, I believe, that would defeat V in the long run.

That and the fact that V has a pretty narrow time band to get all this done. V can't afford to sit down for weeks and months attempting to divine out the solution to this battle, or V will be ruled by arch-fiends for even longer.

Well...that and Lore based Alduin is crazy powerful.

pffh
2012-01-12, 07:29 PM
Playing schrodinger's wizard doesn't really work well with V pre-loss to Xykon. V, before being humbled, was colossally stupid with hir spell choices. I'd expect V's behaviour to be no different fighting Alduin, and it's that, I believe, that would defeat V in the long run.

That and the fact that V has a pretty narrow time band to get all this done. V can't afford to sit down for weeks and months attempting to divine out the solution to this battle, or V will be rule by arch-fiends for even longer.

Well...that and Lore based Alduin is crazy powerful.

Not to mention that if V waits to long Alduin EATS THE WORLD.

Eruantion
2012-01-12, 08:19 PM
Don't forget that each Dragon Shout, assuming we're using Skyrim mechanics, breaks concentration on any magic being cast. Even in his evil form, it's safe to say V wouldn't be strong enough to concentrate on her spells. Alduin, being a dragon who doesn't have to recharge shouts, only needs to raise his voice to tear V to pieces without letting him cast a spell.

Gullintanni
2012-01-13, 08:58 AM
Don't forget that each Dragon Shout, assuming we're using Skyrim mechanics, breaks concentration on any magic being cast. Even in his evil form, it's safe to say V wouldn't be strong enough to concentrate on her spells. Alduin, being a dragon who doesn't have to recharge shouts, only needs to raise his voice to tear V to pieces without letting him cast a spell.

If we're jumping into mechanics again, all Alduin would have to do is circle V in the air with a readied action to FUS-RO-DAH whenever V casts a spell (which also imparts the staggered condition) and that'd basically be game.

douglas
2012-01-13, 10:55 AM
And of course Terry Pratchet would agree:smallbiggrin:. However, killing Death is rather different than killing death. One is a creature, one is part of the fundamental forces of the universe.
Going by the stat block I've seen, which I think is the one from the Immortals Handbook, the two are actually the same. It explicitly lists consequences for killing Death that include the negative energy plane fading out of existence and creatures throughout the multiverse no longer dying no matter what the would-be cause of death is.

Flickerdart
2012-01-13, 02:40 PM
Sure, but the Immortals Handbook is epileptic monkey drivel.

Erts
2012-01-13, 07:52 PM
I've said it once and I'll say it again: when you argue about characters of such power, it's impossible to state which one would win. This thread is another example.

Flickerdart
2012-01-14, 03:32 AM
I've said it once and I'll say it again: when you argue about characters of such power, it's impossible to state which one would win. This thread is another example.
V isn't a character of very significant power at all. He's not even the strongest mortal in his own universe, and his power is further curbed by his passive stupidity.

Lamech
2012-01-14, 01:30 PM
V isn't a character of very significant power at all. He's not even the strongest mortal in his own universe, and his power is further curbed by his passive stupidity.
Yup its why V won't just win the fight by going: maximized time stop, delayed fireball*3 maximized time stop, delayed fireball*3, ad nausea. From what we have seen of his tactics the fight will go like this

V: *teleports out next to the flying Aludin* Time to die *blast, blast*
Aludin: Meteor storm.
V: *hit by meteor and sent crashing to his death*

Erts
2012-01-14, 03:02 PM
V isn't a character of very significant power at all. He's not even the strongest mortal in his own universe, and his power is further curbed by his passive stupidity.

Isn't a character of very significant power?
Breaks an anti-magic field. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html)
Stops the flow of time and turns into a dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html)
Kills hundreds of powerful creatures with one spell. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)
Teleports ships weighing excess of hundreds of tons hundreds of miles. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)
Empowered sunburst... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) (On an unrelated note, what is the consensus on how Redcloak could have known about Soul Splices?)
No, he is not the most powerful being in his universe, but he is pretty stupidly powerful. I feel that normal level of power is like a 5th level fighter, but Evil V is an epic level wizard. There is some serious power at work here.

t209
2012-01-14, 05:26 PM
Why are you supporting for V?
Alduin's a god and he can only be banished to the future!

Axolotl
2012-01-14, 05:35 PM
I have a question, does Alduin have any response to a forcecage? Becaue we know V will use that in response to threats that resist blasting and V is of high enough level that Alduin can be kept in one indefinitely.

Top cat
2012-01-14, 05:37 PM
I'm pretty sure the aedra can be killed. Alduin probably has the protection of prophecy, though.

stormtemplar
2012-01-14, 05:52 PM
They weakened themselves in some ways, but strengthened themselves in many ways, as well. They are far more fueled by worship than Daedra, even though Daedra are immensely powerful. Lorkhan is sort of dead, but not really. The only god I can think of that was "killed" was Trinimac, who was eaten by Boethiah and his essence cannibalized into Malacath.




A spell to eliminate a metaphysical principle? Alduin is both a creature and an integral part of the world. You might as well try to kill death itself.

Are you kidding? Wizards bend reality to their will. Epic wizards eat ultimate principals of reality with their morning cereal. It's been shown that one could, theoretically, animate the ENTIRE surface of a planet to do their will. Even if evil V lost, a high level epic wizard could easily with an epic spell or two.

Erts
2012-01-14, 06:22 PM
Why are you supporting for V?
Alduin's a god and he can only be banished to the future!

I'm not supporting V. I'm saying this is a ridiculous question; we're dealing with beings of such power that it is impossible to say which is more powerful. It's like the Goku-Superman arguments, it's stupid.

Urist
2012-01-14, 07:22 PM
Are you kidding? Wizards bend reality to their will. Epic wizards eat ultimate principals of reality with their morning cereal. It's been shown that one could, theoretically, animate the ENTIRE surface of a planet to do their will. Even if evil V lost, a high level epic wizard could easily with an epic spell or two.

Animating an entire planet to do your will is chump change compared to attempting to fundamentally alter the universe and the way sentient life exists in it. Notice how Epic Wizards don't, and can't, by RAW, design spells that say "Nothing can ever die, ever" or "Thermodynamics doesn't work anymore, free infinite energy for everyone!". They can alter these principals on the small scale(relatively speaking), creating local exceptions to them, but they cannot alter them substantially for all of reality.

Alduin is much the same. The only reasons the Dragonborn could injure him at all was his demigod-hood(they have the blood of Akatosh running in their veins) and that they were fated to do so. Notice how, even with Dragonrend, the ancient Nordic heroes were incapable of actually harming him; he, as the World-Eater and firstborn son of Akatosh, was above being killed. Even when the Dragonborn defeats himthey can't destroy his soul, as they do with other dragons; Alduin has just been banished again, to return at the end of time.

Sanguine
2012-01-14, 07:26 PM
they can't destroy his soul, as they do with other dragons; Alduin has just been banished again, to return at the end of time.

I'd say it's more akin to what happens when you kill a Daedra than what the heroes did with the Elder Scroll. You've destroyed his physical form but it will eventually reform. In this case, most likely at the end of time.

Urist
2012-01-14, 07:57 PM
I'd say it's more akin to what happens when you kill a Daedra than what the heroes did with the Elder Scroll. You've destroyed his physical form but it will eventually reform. In this case, most likely at the end of time.

True. I should have noted I meant banished in the traditional Elder Scrolls sense, in that Daedra are said to "banished" rather then killed, because their essence can't be truly harmed.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-14, 09:24 PM
Frankly, I almost think a lot of this is backwards. Alduin really doesn't bring much of any real potency to the table beyond his plot-sheild.

Fly around a bit, breath fire, maybe there'll be some fiery rain kicking off in the general area. Nothing a mid level wizard couldn't figure out ways to be invincible to, I'm sure.

pffh
2012-01-14, 09:26 PM
Frankly, I almost think a lot of this is backwards. Alduin really doesn't bring much of any real potency to the table beyond his plot-sheild.

Fly around a bit, breath fire, maybe there'll be some fiery rain kicking off in the general area. Nothing a mid level wizard couldn't figure out ways to be invincible to, I'm sure.

That's game mechanics Alduin. Lore Alduin is much more powerful.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-14, 09:44 PM
That's game mechanics Alduin. Lore Alduin is much more powerful.

So you've mentioned. Out of interest, what's the source on this Lore, by the way? There was precious little that I noticed in game, really.

Sanguine
2012-01-14, 10:53 PM
So you've mentioned. Out of interest, what's the source on this Lore, by the way? There was precious little that I noticed in game, really.

Books. There are tons of books in the game full of tons of lore you miss out on otherwise.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-14, 10:56 PM
Books. There are tons of books in the game full of tons of lore you miss out on otherwise.

Oh, right. We're taking those as reliable accounts now? Yeah, I read some, though I genuinely didn't stumble across many dealing with Alduin on anything other than a very hazy level either way. (I did enjoy the anomymous-nord one, about how "Alduin is real, and he int Akatosh" if nothing else.)

pffh
2012-01-14, 11:00 PM
I was talking more about how the thu'um in game is quite weak compared to what it's supposed to be able to do and Alduin being a dragon should have very powerful thu'um.

Sanguine
2012-01-14, 11:08 PM
Oh, right. We're taking those as reliable accounts now? Yeah, I read some, though I genuinely didn't stumble across many dealing with Alduin on anything other than a very hazy level either way. (I did enjoy the anomymous-nord one, about how "Alduin is real, and he int Akatosh" if nothing else.)

Not at all. In fact the lore being relayed in potentially unreliable accounts is an intentional decision by Bethesda. It allows them to avoid being constrained by what came before. It is however what people are talking about. I believe Children of the Sky is the primary source they are drawing from. Though that one is obviously unreliable as Nords do not get any more "elemental" as you go farther north.

Urist
2012-01-14, 11:29 PM
Oh, right. We're taking those as reliable accounts now? Yeah, I read some, though I genuinely didn't stumble across many dealing with Alduin on anything other than a very hazy level either way. (I did enjoy the anomymous-nord one, about how "Alduin is real, and he int Akatosh" if nothing else.)

"Alduin is Real", "Children of the Sky", and other lore books are quite fun, and some of the sources being drawn from here. As well, the Pocket Guide to the Empire, Cyrodil provides some compelling evidence of the power of the Thu'um of Tiber Septim. However, a lot of it is logical deduction. Alduin is a dragon. As Arngeir and Paarnurthurax both say in-game, the dragon language makes no division between Shouting and speaking, and even their basic conversations are charged with magic. The Greybeards, mortals who do not even begin to approach the mastery of lesser dragons, actually physically shake the whole of High Hrothgar by speaking to you. Alduin is many levels of magnitude more powerful than the Greybeards, who are not able to speak in full voices for fear of killing those around them.

As well, Tikisnakes, if we really want to wed ourselves exclusively to the things we see Alduin demonstrate on-screen, he is completely invulnerable to attack without Dragonrend anyway. So, stalemate.

Flickerdart
2012-01-15, 11:56 PM
Isn't a character of very significant power?
Breaks an anti-magic field. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html)
Stops the flow of time and turns into a dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html)
Kills hundreds of powerful creatures with one spell. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)
Teleports ships weighing excess of hundreds of tons hundreds of miles. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)
Empowered sunburst... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) (On an unrelated note, what is the consensus on how Redcloak could have known about Soul Splices?)
No, he is not the most powerful being in his universe, but he is pretty stupidly powerful. I feel that normal level of power is like a 5th level fighter, but Evil V is an epic level wizard. There is some serious power at work here.
I'm not saying he's weak. But compared to a divinity whose job is to eat the entire universe, and who can travel to and from the afterlife to devour souls at will, moving around a couple of ships and killing some blokes doesn't really measure up.


I was talking more about how the thu'um in game is quite weak compared to what it's supposed to be able to do and Alduin being a dragon should have very powerful thu'um.
Alduin isn't just "a dragon" though, he's pretty much the dragon, not counting Akatosh. His thu'um is the best thu'um. The only reason the Dragonborn wins is because he follows Alduin to where Alduin is vulnerable, gangs up on him with three other thu'um users.

Sanguine
2012-01-16, 10:03 PM
Alduin isn't just "a dragon" though, he's pretty much the dragon, not counting Akatosh. His thu'um is the best thu'um. The only reason the Dragonborn wins is because he follows Alduin to where Alduin is vulnerable, gangs up on him with three other thu'um users.

Of course, he was in that area where he is vulnerable because the Dragonborn just kicked his ass and apparently souls are the dragon equivalent to healing potions.

Kyberwulf
2012-01-17, 03:40 PM
Evil Vaarsuvius vs. Evil Willow, That is a good matchup ^_^

Gullintanni
2012-01-18, 07:39 AM
Alduin isn't just "a dragon" though, he's pretty much the dragon, not counting Akatosh. His thu'um is the best thu'um. The only reason the Dragonborn wins is because the blood of the gods flows through his veins and he follows Alduin to where Alduin is vulnerable, where he gangs up on him with three other legendary thu'um users.

Fixed that for you. The spirit of the post was correct, I just felt it needed more emphasis in certain areas.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-18, 09:44 AM
Fixed that for you. The spirit of the post was correct, I just felt it needed more emphasis in certain areas.

The blood and power of gods isn't exactly uncommon in D&Dverses, though, and by D&D standards any character above 10th level (let alone Epic) is considered 'legendary', so neither of those are quite as differentiating as you might expect.

Gullintanni
2012-01-18, 12:02 PM
The blood and power of gods isn't exactly uncommon in D&Dverses, though, and by D&D standards any character above 10th level (let alone Epic) is considered 'legendary', so neither of those are quite as differentiating as you might expect.

Well...in this specific instance,

the Dragonborn probably has a Divine Rank 0, if we're translating into D&D terms. He's well above Planetouched, for example. Specifically, the Dragonborn carries the gift of the Voice from Kynareth and the blood of Akatosh. I suppose you can argue over this...but I think the point still stands that in this specific case, the blood of the gods is uncommon, and it's a source of exceptional power when considered in the the scope of the world of Skyrim.

Worth considering is that in the lore, the Thu'um of the Dragonborn matches the Thu'um of the dragons...and the dragons can shout apart armies.


And I'm not really seeing anywhere in RAW where Legendary is achieved by level 10. Regardless, you'll have to forgive my careless choice of adjective. Had I said they were epic thu'um users, would we then be debating whether or not these characters were around level 20 in D&D terms?

My point was that these Thu'um users are legendary in the world of Skyrim. They represent Skyrim's peak potential in terms of power and make use of the Thu'um. I'm not really certain you can assess Skyrim's peak power as hovering around 10th level D&D.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-18, 12:05 PM
Well...in this specific instance,

the Dragonborn probably has a Divine Rank 0, if we're translating into D&D terms. He's well above Planetouched, for example. Specifically, the Dragonborn carries the gift of the Voice from Kynareth and the blood of Akatosh.


And I'm not really seeing anywhere in RAW where Legendary is achieved by level 10. Regardless, you'll have to forgive my careless choice of adjective. Had I said they were epic thu'um users, would we then be debating whether or not these characters were around level 20 in D&D terms?


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm


As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

So by RAW, Legendary status is 11th level or higher.

Gullintanni
2012-01-18, 12:08 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm

So by RAW, Legendary status is 11th level or higher.

Fair enough. :smallamused:

I assert that my point still stands though. Careless use of an adjective does not a power ceiling make.

EDIT: And even then, given the example listed, that puts the minimum level of the Dragonborns' allies at level 11.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-18, 12:29 PM
Fair enough. :smallamused:

I assert that my point still stands though. Careless use of an adjective does not a power ceiling make.

EDIT: And even then, given the example listed, that puts the minimum level of the Dragonborns' allies at level 11.

The point of your statement, though, was implying the dragonborn's legendary/epic/kumquat status made them superior to D&D Wizards. Average D&D wizards of 'legendary' status can perform feats matching the greatest of Skyrim's mortal magic-users, and their own power ceiling goes up from there.

The most accurate fix would have been 'The only reason the Dragonborn wins is because plot says so/he has the MacGuffin he needs to do it with', since all the other qualifiers of the paragraph are also met by a double-digit level D&D wizard.

Gullintanni
2012-01-18, 12:46 PM
The most accurate fix would have been 'The only reason the Dragonborn wins is because plot says so/he has the MacGuffin he needs to do it with', since all the other qualifiers of the paragraph are also met by a double-digit level D&D wizard.

I think you might be fixating too much on game mechanics Alduin. The Dragonborn needed a MacGuffin to have a chance at defeating Alduin. Once Dragonrend's been used, the Dragonborn still needs to be able to endure a withering assault by The Voice, a power which could shout apart armies.

While I do agree the power ceiling of an optimized wizard would allow him to, in the same situation, batman Alduin to death, this discussion centers around V, who in the same situation, is more likely to toss around Disintegrates than Contingent Teleports and the like.

The reason the Dragonborn defeats Alduin in combat is because he and his buddies are excruciatingly powerful, at least if you believe the fluff. Legendary, in the mechanical sense, for an Elder Scrolls character doesn't mean much when compared to D&D, but in the fluff? I'm not so sure that's as cut and dry.

My point, ultimately, had nothing to do with Alduin or the Dragonborn being superior to D&D Wizards. My point was that Alduin or the Dragonborn et al. are superior to Evil V. The two are not at all equivalent statements.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-18, 01:12 PM
The simple fact of the matter is that offensive magic in the Elder Scrolls is remotely balanced. Which is to say, mainly blasting and significantly weaker even than the kind of blasting that non-Spliced-V is capable of throwing around.

With access to the same plot token, Evil V has a significantly easier time on his hands than the Dragonborn. Without the plot token, he has ways to emulate it at the very least. *shrug*

The Glyphstone
2012-01-18, 01:20 PM
See, everyone is blasting :smallbiggrin: Evil V for just being V with more dice thrown around, but that's really being unfair. With his powerup, he was actually playing relatively smart - note that he went in heavily buffed, and the first thing he tries to cast in his surprise round is Time Stop, the bread-and-butter of any optimized wizard attack. Sure, he throws blaster Evocations, but alongside Dimensional Anchor, Crushing Hand, and an attempted Greater Teleport. His weakness wasn't his tactics, it was having offensive power (spell slots) in far greater excess of his defensive power (Concentration checks and HP/Saves).

Gullintanni
2012-01-18, 01:45 PM
See, everyone is blasting :smallbiggrin:

Nice. I approve :smalltongue:

Lamech
2012-01-18, 09:43 PM
See, everyone is blasting :smallbiggrin: Evil V for just being V with more dice thrown around, but that's really being unfair. With his powerup, he was actually playing relatively smart - note that he went in heavily buffed, and the first thing he tries to cast in his surprise round is Time Stop, the bread-and-butter of any optimized wizard attack. Sure, he throws blaster Evocations, but alongside Dimensional Anchor, Crushing Hand, and an attempted Greater Teleport. His weakness wasn't his tactics, it was having offensive power (spell slots) in far greater excess of his defensive power (Concentration checks and HP/Saves).

IIRC his first attempt he came in with no buffs, and in his attack against Xykon the only buffs were ones still ticking from the dragon fight. In the Xykon fight he should have cast time stop before he teleported in. Indeed had Rich not been nice enough to have Xykon forget about his touch attacks V would have provoked and gotten paralyzed by one of Xykon's AoO.

V had nothing approaching good usage of his abilities. Aludin would rip V apart. Meteor storm, his force shout, his fire breath, all of these things would doom V.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-18, 10:56 PM
IIRC his first attempt he came in with no buffs, and in his attack against Xykon the only buffs were ones still ticking from the dragon fight. In the Xykon fight he should have cast time stop before he teleported in. Indeed had Rich not been nice enough to have Xykon forget about his touch attacks V would have provoked and gotten paralyzed by one of Xykon's AoO.

V had nothing approaching good usage of his abilities. Aludin would rip V apart. Meteor storm, his force shout, his fire breath, all of these things would doom V.

The only buffs - you mean the Acid Immunity, Mind Blank, Stoneskin, Bear's Endurance, Protection From Spells, Shield, and Fire Shield? All of which have durations long enough to last into the Xykon fight, and all of which are pretty good buffs when you're limited to core. If anything, V's only failing was not Shapechanging before he Teleported, the extra save boosts to his stats would have helped a bit. With an Epic-level conjurer bound, how do you know his intention wasn't to finish that Time Stop and Gate or Epic Gate in a bunch of Epic monsters to crush Xykon like a bug?

If V had nothing approaching good usages of his abilities, he would have attacked the dragon and Xykon unbuffed and only prevailed through plot or DEM - the fact that he wasn't good enough (because, you know, it would kind of end the entire comic if he was) isn't reason to dismiss him entirely. Under the soulsplice influence, he's obviously better than the normal Evocation-spewing elf that is apparently being used as the automatic baseline against a dragon guarded by Plot and armed with elemental damage.

Lamech
2012-01-18, 11:56 PM
The only buffs - you mean the Acid Immunity, Mind Blank, Stoneskin, Bear's Endurance, Protection From Spells, Shield, and Fire Shield? All of which have durations long enough to last into the Xykon fight, and all of which are pretty good buffs when you're limited to core. If anything, V's only failing was not Shapechanging before he Teleported, the extra save boosts to his stats would have helped a bit. With an Epic-level conjurer bound, how do you know his intention wasn't to finish that Time Stop and Gate or Epic Gate in a bunch of Epic monsters to crush Xykon like a bug? He tried to cast time stop after the fight started. And all the buffs he cast where also cast after the fight started that was moronic.


If V had nothing approaching good usages of his abilities, he would have attacked the dragon and Xykon unbuffed and only prevailed through plot or DEM - the fact that he wasn't good enough (because, you know, it would kind of end the entire comic if he was) isn't reason to dismiss him entirely. Under the soulsplice influence, he's obviously better than the normal Evocation-spewing elf that is apparently being used as the automatic baseline against a dragon guarded by Plot and armed with elemental damage.Once again he did only survive due to plot. Had Xykon not suddenly forgot about his touch attacks V would have provoked and died. (He needs to move to not fall with overland flight, it provokes, V is paralyzed and dies).

The Glyphstone
2012-01-18, 11:59 PM
He tried to cast time stop after the fight started. And all the buffs he cast where also cast after the fight started that was moronic.
Once again he did only survive due to plot. Had Xykon not suddenly forgot about his touch attacks V would have provoked and died. (He needs to move to not fall with overland flight, it provokes, V is paralyzed and dies).

Moronic, or Plot? He saves time on his Soul Splice by buffing inside a Time Stop, and it doesn't matter where the Time Stop is cast. Since he was driven by an in-story motivation to be hasty...that sounds like Plot to me.

You're attributing Plot against Xykon but not against V. Why is it only due to plot that Xykon didn't use his touch attacks (either due to 'forgetting' them or because he felt like using spells instead, which is frankly as in-character for him as evocations are for V), but it's due to V's deficiencies rather than Plot that he didn't use better spells?

Lamech
2012-01-19, 12:08 AM
Moronic, or Plot? He saves time on his Soul Splice by buffing inside a Time Stop, and it doesn't matter where the Time Stop is cast. Since he was driven by an in-story motivation to be hasty...that sounds like Plot to me.

You're attributing Plot against Xykon but not against V. Why is it only due to plot that Xykon didn't use his touch attacks (either due to 'forgetting' them or because he felt like using spells instead, which is frankly as in-character for him as evocations are for V), but it's due to V's deficiencies rather than Plot that he didn't use better spells?

He used epic teleport to get around, he could have brought them with. Or time stopped, teleported in and then ran the gates. (Although gate is probably blocked since calling is not summoning.) And its not that Xykon would have needed to give up spells to attack, V had to provoke since he was using overland flight. Xykon knows about his touch attacks, he used them later that fight. Ignoring them isn't very Xykony.
V on the other had? His actions were par for the course for him. Hardly bother with buffs, simply tries to blast his way through any problem. Ect.

Anyway so again if we replace the black dragon with Aludin this is how the fight would roughly go:
V: *pops in*
Aludin: Meteor Storm
V: *hit by meteor falls to his death*

Jayngfet
2012-01-19, 12:27 AM
You're attributing Plot against Xykon but not against V. Why is it only due to plot that Xykon didn't use his touch attacks (either due to 'forgetting' them or because he felt like using spells instead, which is frankly as in-character for him as evocations are for V), but it's due to V's deficiencies rather than Plot that he didn't use better spells?

Because yes, that's what V is. Remember after all that V mentioned himself he tosses around WAY too many offensive spells around compared to other schools. It's a major trait that's been mentioned multiple times in story.

Making V into some kind of awesome Batman Wizard is silly.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-19, 06:51 AM
Because yes, that's what V is. Remember after all that V mentioned himself he tosses around WAY too many offensive spells around compared to other schools. It's a major trait that's been mentioned multiple times in story.

Making V into some kind of awesome Batman Wizard is silly.

No, but everyone in this thread is arguing that Evil V would just walk up to Alduin and start chain-casting Fireball spells or Disintegrates, when we have solid on-screen evidence that for the duration of his Soul Splicing at least, he was using tactics leaps and bounds above his usual 'What Are Buff Spells?' routine. It may be silly to turn V into an omniscient Forum-powered Batman wizard, but completely ignoring the fact that he was, in fact, using tactical thinking to some degree is equally silly, and speaks of a deliberate need to ignore anything that'd give V a chance.

Gullintanni
2012-01-19, 07:41 AM
No, but everyone in this thread is arguing that Evil V would just walk up to Alduin and start chain-casting Fireball spells or Disintegrates, when we have solid on-screen evidence that for the duration of his Soul Splicing at least, he was using tactics leaps and bounds above his usual 'What Are Buff Spells?' routine. It may be silly to turn V into an omniscient Forum-powered Batman wizard, but completely ignoring the fact that he was, in fact, using tactical thinking to some degree is equally silly, and speaks of a deliberate need to ignore anything that'd give V a chance.

Hmm...yeah, to be fair Evil V does make much better use of hir resources than regular V. I'm still not sure it'd be good enough, owing to Alduin's divinity and the power of the Voice, but I'll concede that V's error against Xykon was not necessarily tactical. V's largest error was hubris.

Lamech
2012-01-19, 10:53 AM
No, but everyone in this thread is arguing that Evil V would just walk up to Alduin and start chain-casting Fireball spells or Disintegrates, when we have solid on-screen evidence that for the duration of his Soul Splicing at least, he was using tactics leaps and bounds above his usual 'What Are Buff Spells?' routine. It may be silly to turn V into an omniscient Forum-powered Batman wizard, but completely ignoring the fact that he was, in fact, using tactical thinking to some degree is equally silly, and speaks of a deliberate need to ignore anything that'd give V a chance.
Dude that is exactly what she did. Twice! In the first fight she teleports in and starts in with the blasts. She even manages to watch the black dragon get off an anti-magic field. In the Xykon fight she casts not one additional buff spell, summons not one creature ahead of time, waits to cast time stop until Xykon is in a position to disrupt it ect.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-19, 11:18 AM
Dude that is exactly what she did. Twice! In the first fight she teleports in and starts in with the blasts. She even manages to watch the black dragon get off an anti-magic field. In the Xykon fight she casts not one additional buff spell, summons not one creature ahead of time, waits to cast time stop until Xykon is in a position to disrupt it ect.

Actually, he 'starts with the blasts' as one blast, as a 'Hey Dragon, Look At Me' taunt, waits to get the dragon's attention, then casts his readied Time Stop to layer defensive buffs before the dragon's hits land. He deliberately lets the dragon get off her Antimagic field before Disjoining it. A few Disintegrations, then Shapechange as the finisher...the entire scene is Darth V toying with the ABD, rubbing her face in the fact that he is far more powerful this time around.

Against Xykon, he had no need to cast more buffs, and you assume he had more than one Epic Teleport readied. As for 'waiting until Xykon is in a position to disrupt it', Xykon was caught completely off guard, the only thing that stopped the time stop was Xykon being Crazy Prepared (and Crazy Bored) enough to set up a ridiculously specific trap against this exact contingency, which is pretty much Plot in a can. He didn't need additional buff spells because he still had all his buffs spells running off the Dragon fight (except Shapechange) - Foresight or MoP wasn't useful because he was the one with the surprise round and initiative advantage, and it's apparent that the OOTSverse doesn't consider Invisibility an offensive spell. What other buffs would he have cast as the theoretically competent core-only wizard?

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-19, 11:27 AM
Worth remembering, whilst all this talk of how Alduin would instantly destroy V is going round, that to my knowledge the Dragonborn has no powers of super-durability or resistence beyond that of anyone else in the setting and that the Dragons all, to a man, seem to take a perverse joy in flapping around for a good period of time before even bothering to fight their target.

I just dont find calls of instant-destruction overly credible.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-19, 12:09 PM
Let's see what Alduin would actually have available to him, assuming as the Boss Dragon Of All Boss Dragons that he can use every Shout in the game at will without cooldowns or maximum usage, including unlearnable ones, as listed in the Elder Scrolls Wiki:


-Animal Allegiance: Summons and binds animals to fight for you. Ranges from useless to inconvenience depending on fight location.
-Aura Whisper: Detects life or motion. Could help counter Invisibility if used, but the description says sneaking can foil it, so probably not.
-Become Ethereal: Invulnerability at the cost of no other actions besides movement. An excellent last-ditch defensive cooldown, and possibly a dealbreaker; if Alduin can't harm V, and V can harm Alduin, the dragon might just turtle up and run away.
-Call Dragon: Summons a dragon ally to fight for you. Entirely dependent on how strong Odahviing is, but compared to Alduin himself, likely an overall minor contribution.
-Call of Valor: Summons a spirit champion who fights for you. Unknown.
-Clear Skies: Purges inclement weather. Worthless in an arcane duel.
-Disarm: Self-explanatory. Depending on game mechanics vs. translation, could be either totally useless or an effective short-duration stun, though it apparently has a cap on the power of enemies it can harm.
-Dismay: Fear effect. Only affects weak enemies though, which V, no matter how stupid he fights, is not. Irrelevant.
-Dragonrend: Because Alduin is totally going to debuff himself for giggles?
-Elemental Fury: A haste-like effect. If it works on claws/natural weapons, a good buff.
-Fire Breath: AoE fire damage.
-Frost Breath: AoE cold damage.
-Ice Form: Stuns and deals cold damage. Good attack spell.
-Kyne's Peace: Detects and pacifies animals. Irrelevant.
-Marked for Death: Armor debuff and life drain damage. Useful.
-Slow Time: Allows for accelerated movement and attacks. Not a true Time Stop, but something like a Greater Haste if it existed, presumably.
-Storm Call: AoE electrical damage.
-Throw Voice: Amusing, but useless in an outright fight.
-Unrelenting Force: Stun+Knockback, with some impact damage. The infamous FUS RO DAH.
-Whirlwind Speed: Effectively a short-range teleport. Useful.

-Ressurect Dead Dragon: Could summon reinforcements if near dead dragons, otherwise not important.
-Meteor Swarm: We're Done Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm)
-Summon Spectral Clone: Dunno, can Spectral Clones fight back? Either an worthless distraction or a gamebreaker depending on no/yes.
-Summon Fog: Dense fog and a 'soul snare'(?). Sounds like Solid Fog, which is a good tool.
-Return To Nirn: Umm....a Banish effect if Alduin is losing?


So, Alduin's actual toolbox for doing harm (barring the infinite clone spam of an offensive Spectral Clone) is limited to three types of elemental damage, an assortment of stun effects, and buffing himself for melee combat, or possibly summoning some minor allies to contribute what they can. Objectively analyzed, it depends on if V knows what Alduin can do and prepares accordingly. If he's not immune to stuns, Alduin can stunlock him to death and it's game over. If he is, it depends on if V put up immunity wards against all three elements - leave one open, and the raw damage will crush him. If he is warded against stuns, fire, cold, and electricity, Alduin's only remaining option is wading in with claws and teeth.

EDIT: There's also the drain effect of Marked For Death. Theoretically, Alduin could slap this on V then hide under a Turn Ethereal until it expires, repeat until Death Of A Thousand Cuts occurs.

Urist
2012-01-19, 01:20 PM
Worth remembering, whilst all this talk of how Alduin would instantly destroy V is going round, that to my knowledge the Dragonborn has no powers of super-durability or resistence beyond that of anyone else in the setting and that the Dragons all, to a man, seem to take a perverse joy in flapping around for a good period of time before even bothering to fight their target.

I just dont find calls of instant-destruction overly credible.

Actually, the Dragonborn, as a player character in an Elder Scrolls game, has reached a state known as CHIM. The long explanation(fascinating analysis of Morrowind, but the same principle applies to any player character of an Elder Scrolls Game) is here (http://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-3/), but the short story is that beings who achieve CHIM have achieved knowledge of their status as part of a singular entity that is the entire world(although the characters don't comprehend this because they don't have the words for it, that singular entity is the game code) while still maintaining their individuality. This allows a transcendent control of "reality"(console, save games), and thus success in all thing. Think of the way the player can, in Skyrim, reload save games over and over again to get a perfect result. This is how the Dragonborn can kill Alduin: in a hundred, or possibly a thousand, or a million, other realities, the Dragonborn failed. However, the one we see is the one that succeeded.

As for Dragons taking joy they are certainly arrogant lizards:smallbiggrin:. Alduin does have a major character flaw in that regard.

Lamech
2012-01-19, 02:42 PM
Worth remembering, whilst all this talk of how Alduin would instantly destroy V is going round, that to my knowledge the Dragonborn has no powers of super-durability or resistence beyond that of anyone else in the setting and that the Dragons all, to a man, seem to take a perverse joy in flapping around for a good period of time before even bothering to fight their target.

I just dont find calls of instant-destruction overly credible.

Aludin only flaps around when invincible, and V lacks any powers of super-durability or resistance beyond that of anyone else in the setting.

On the shouts that would wreck V

Meteor Swarm: Far different than the DnD spell. This repeatedly drops meteors from the heavens, each inflicting massive damage and knockdown (stun), certainly breaking V's concentration. It is a continuing spell lasting for a significant portion of time. (So Aludin can be roasting V at the same time. )
Fire Breath: Aludins dragon breath is comparatively nasty to the other breaths encountered. It makes Jarin root ("insta-death" poison) look non-lethal by comparison.
Force Shout: I do believe this is a good bit stronger than the dragonborn's version. Again the stun effect would break any spells that V is casting.
Storm Call: This is an inanely powerful shout for damage. It has the potential to disrupt V's concentration too.

So basically V would need to find someway to ward herself against, the raw damage and the being knocked around, or Aludin will crush her. Which would require preparation that V does not demonstrate in the with Xykon or the black dragon. None of this "it appears I should have buffed myself, dragon breath hurts" by that time its already too late.

Gullintanni
2012-01-19, 02:44 PM
EDIT: There's also the drain effect of Marked For Death. Theoretically, Alduin could slap this on V then hide under a Turn Ethereal until it expires, repeat until Death Of A Thousand Cuts occurs.

Arguably, cold immunity and stun immunity wouldn't be an effective defense against Ice Form. What it actually does is encase the target in ice, so far as I can tell. In which case, we need to start looking at what the break DC is on 3-4 inches of Ice. At that point, Alduin uses Elemental Fury and goes in swinging. The real danger here? Limitation of somatic components.

More likely, Alduin's default attack pattern would have him casting his unique version of Storm Call, and then circling in the air dishing out fire. Given that V isn't much for divination, we can't really expect that V will be immune to all elemental damage Alduin can deal, but fire? That's kind of the iconic dragon breath weapon. We can maybe, then, assume V would've been savvy enough to protect hirself against fire.

Alduin sees this isn't working and then responds accordingly by either going in for melee or switching breath weapons. I tend to assume the former. Still, even Evil V is vulnerable in melee. This isn't a batman wizard we're talking about at all...and if Alduin gets a full attack, then assuming regular dragons stats in D&D (Alduin would probably be something of the ancient wyrm persuasion) then V isn't going to last very long.

I think, perhaps, the determining factor here is how long could Alduin weather V's assault...and would he be smart enough to ready an action every turn to blast with the Voice V to disrupt hir spellcasting. This may not even be necessary if Storm Call/Meteor Swarm can do that job for Alduin.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-19, 02:54 PM
Things like interrupting spells in progress is pushing us too far into game mechanics, I think. His Fire Breath being more potent isn't important, since immunity is immunity against 10 damage or 10 million, but the constant concentration checks forced by meteor impacts could be a decisive factor, since Darth V's ultimate failure was because he couldn't make his Concentration checks...and in fact, he's got a tendency to bomb them on a regular basis when required (see also, the Miko fight).

Even a core-only Batman wizard really can't handle melee combat beyond what Shapechange offers him, and Core monster forms aren't terribly impressive. If Alduin goes for melee, V is in serious trouble; either he runs away (and thus loses by the contest rules) or gets nommed.

Gullintanni
2012-01-19, 02:56 PM
The only reason I bring up interrupting spells is because the Voice interrupts spellcasting in Skyrim. Ostensibly, a clever creature who timed his attacks properly could disable a spellcaster using tactics that are just as viable in Skyrim as they are in 3.5 D&D.

Owing to the simultaneous nature of combat outside of the 3.5 combat abstract, I expect this kind of behaviour would actually be more likely.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-19, 03:04 PM
The only reason I bring up interrupting spells is because the Voice interrupts spellcasting in Skyrim. Ostensibly, a clever creature who timed his attacks properly could disable a spellcaster using tactics that are just as viable in Skyrim as they are in 3.5 D&D.

Owing to the simultaneous nature of combat outside of the 3.5 combat abstract, I expect this kind of behaviour would actually be more likely.

Yeah, but then we have to figure out which combat system we're using, real-time or turnbased, and we have enough arguments already. Better to represent stuff as the ongoing damage that 3.5 does have rules for, since 3.5 also doesn't allow automatic disruption of spells, only Concentration checks again.

Flickerdart
2012-01-20, 01:12 PM
The curious thing is that Shapechange is 10 minutes/level - if V's caster level was high enough to reliably shatter the AMF (and thus he was actually toying and not being his usual dumb self) then the Shapechange would have lasted into the Xykon fight. Since you can change shape every round of Shapechange, V could have just popped back into angry dragon form and bit Xykon's head off, but he didn't, possibly because he's dumb.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-20, 01:13 PM
The curious thing is that Shapechange is 10 minutes/level - if V's caster level was high enough to reliably shatter the AMF (and thus he was actually toying and not being his usual dumb self) then the Shapechange would have lasted into the Xykon fight. Since you can change shape every round of Shapechange, V could have just popped back into angry dragon form and bit Xykon's head off, but he didn't, possibly because he's dumb.

I thought it was 1 round/level, whoops.

DarthArminius
2012-01-20, 01:57 PM
I thought it was 1 round/level, whoops.

Also, please note, the above poster doesn't seem to realize that there exists a thing called "plot induced stupidity". Vaarsuvius is probably more intelligent than most scientists. You need to be somewhat intelligent in the first place just to learn 4th level spells. Plot induced stupidity has Vaarsuvius acting rashly and unintelligently for purposes of plot. There is nothing else much dumb about Vaarsuvius other than choosing Evocation as his specialization of spell schools, and in a setting's fluff, I bet that Evocation would actually be a logical choice for for specialization as one of the most powerful schools.

douglas
2012-01-20, 02:50 PM
there exists a thing called "plot induced stupidity".
Indeed, and this case of it was actually well justified. It's not that V isn't smart, it's that V arrogantly believed (s)he had so much overwhelming power that thinking wasn't necessary. V could have crafted a careful plan that would have utilized the Soul Splice power to maximum efficiency and curb stomped Xykon, but (s)he was in a hurry and didn't think taking the time and effort to do so would make any difference. V learning that such things are important no matter how much power you have was a major point of that plot arc.

Flickerdart
2012-01-20, 05:43 PM
Also, please note, the above poster doesn't seem to realize that there exists a thing called "plot induced stupidity". Vaarsuvius is probably more intelligent than most scientists. You need to be somewhat intelligent in the first place just to learn 4th level spells. Plot induced stupidity has Vaarsuvius acting rashly and unintelligently for purposes of plot. There is nothing else much dumb about Vaarsuvius other than choosing Evocation as his specialization of spell schools, and in a setting's fluff, I bet that Evocation would actually be a logical choice for for specialization as one of the most powerful schools.
Oh, sure, V is incredibly intelligent. I am referring to his long-standing feud with having any sort of Wisdom score worth talking about. Hell, even in his powered-up state he failed a Will (!) saving throw against a theurge, strongly suggesting a Wisdom penalty.

Flasaro
2012-01-24, 04:57 AM
In all reality wouldn't you have to be a truenamer to use dragonrend or the other shouts?