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thedarkstone
2012-01-03, 06:41 PM
Massivist


"Using a sword against me is as futile as it would be to use one against a mountain."

There are those few who, due to their unique mass density, have skin as strong as stone, capable of withstanding the elements and common weaponry both. They are called massivists, and they use this mass to aid in their attacks as well, enabling them to do many things that would not normally be possible.

Making a Massivist

Abilities: Constitution is the only necessary ability score for a massivist. Eventually, they can do without most other ability scores; intelligence, however, remains useful, as it grants additional skills. Dexterity improves their armor class, which is useful since they cannot wear armor.

Races: Dwarves and goliaths are most commonly massivists. Their races have a propensity for sturdier mass, and so they are more likely to simply become tougher. Humans can be found as massivists frequently, due to their extraordinary ability to excel in anything. Surprisingly, halflings and gnomes are able to become quite proficient massivists as well. Elven massivists are few and far between. Warforged cannot become massivists.

Alignment: Massivists can be of any alignment. Resiliency of mass doesn’t depend on mentality.

Religion: Religion is commonly ignored by massivists. They have near perfect control of their bodies; they need not deities to give them peace of mind and soul. They attain this inner peace themselves. Some are the opposite, instead using their faith in a deity to fuel their massivist capabilities. These are a rarity.

Starting Gold: 4d4 x 10 (100)

Starting Age: As Fighter (PHB 109)

Hit Die: d10

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Slam Attack
1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Elemental Resilience I, Toughened Skin, Ruthless Fist | 1d8
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Well-Constituted +1, Bulk, Light as a Feather (1/day) | 1d8
3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | Skin of Bronze, Body of Armor | 1d8
4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Elemental Resilience II | 1d8
5 | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | The Strength to Endure, Light as a Feather (3/day) | 1d10
6 | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Growth +1, Well-Constituted +2 | 1d10
7 | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Ironskin, Supermassive | 1d10
8 | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Elemental Resilience III, Light as a Feather (3+Con/day) | 1d10
9 | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +3 | Made of Tougher Stuff | 1d10
10 | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Massive Meleeist, Well-Constituted +3 | 2d6
11 | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Skin of Mithril, Light as a Feather (at will) | 2d6
12 | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Elemental Resilience IV | 2d6
13 | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Gravitational Pull | 2d6
14 | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +4 | Growth +2, Well-Constituted +4 | 2d6
15 | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +5 | Impenetrability | 2d8
16 | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Elemental Resilience V | 2d8
17 | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Disabling Pull | 2d8
18 | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Well-Constituted +5 | 2d8
19 | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Solidarity | 2d8
20 | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +6 | Elemental Resilience VI, Perfect Negation | 3d6[/table]
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Massivists are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor but are proficient with all shields (except tower shields).

Elemental Resilience I (Ex): A massivist has the capability to withstand irritating levels of the elements. At 1st level, he has energy resistance 1 to the following: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. This increases as he gains levels.

Toughened Skin (Ex): Already at first level, a massivist shows slightly toughened skin, causing what would injure most to instead glance off—for a price. He has damage reduction 1/- and a natural armor of +4, but he can never wear armor. This increases as he gains levels.

Ruthless Fist (Ex): Due to his body becoming much more compact, the massivist's fists become weapons in and of themselves. The massivist gains a slam attack. This is treated as a natural attack and, if the massivist is wielding a manufactured weapon, can be used as a secondary attack at -5. This attack deals 1d8 points of damage at first level, and increases in damage at fifth and every five levels thereafter (1d10 at 5th, 2d6 at 10th, 2d8 at 15th, and 3d6 at 20th).

At 6th level, upon gaining a second attack, the massivist also gains a second slam attack.

NOTE: If you think this feature is too powerful, tell me so. I can fix it then.

Well-Constituted (Ex): At second level, the massivist realizes how to control the distribution of his mass and begins to be able to maximize its use. This gives him a +1 to his constitution score, which increases by an additional point every 4 levels (+2 at 6th, +3 at 10th, etc.). He also gains an additional point of Constitution at 20th.

Bulk (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a massivist's mass has reached the point where it does not matter if he moves gracefully or not. Instead of using his Dexterity modifier on his Armor Class, a massivist can use his Constitution modifier.

Light as a Feather (Ex): At 2nd level, a massivist learns that he can shift his mass in such a way that it seems as if he is light as a feather. This enables him to enact a Feather Fall-like effect once per day. This improves to three times per day at 5th, three plus Constitution modifier times per day at 8th, and finally, at 11th, the massivist can use it as many times per day as he wants.

Skin of Bronze (Ex): Upon reaching third level, the massivist attains better control of his skin structure and its mass distribution. This gives it the strength of bronze, granting him a damage reduction of 3/- and a natural armor bonus of +5. This does not stack with Toughened Skin.

Body of Armor (Ex): A 3rd level massivist learns an important lesson from his time absorbing blows; his body is as good as armor. In fact, it might as well BE armor. This ability enables him--or another--to enchant his body as if it were a suit of armor. This helps to make up for the inability to wear armor.

Elemental Resilience II (Ex): At 4th level, a massivist can shrug off the spells of weak mages. His energy resistance improves to 5 against all five of the elements previously defended against.

The Strength to Endure (Ex): A massivist learns to use their mass for more than defense. At 5th level, he learns to use it for some skill checks. For all strength based skills as well as balance, tumble, and any strength based craft (such as smithing), the massivist can use their constitution bonus instead of the standard ability score bonus.

Growth (Ex): A massivist has so much mass density, and his general increase in mass is so large, that he gains the capability to grow in size in a short span of time. He becomes able to become large if he was medium, medium if he was small, or huge if he was large at 6th level. He can increase in size an additional size category at 14th. This continues every eight levels until he is capable of becoming colossal+. This change happens at a rate of 1 round/size category. When changing size, he gains all of the benefits and penalties associated with his new size, and he loses all those associated with his prior size. This growth lasts for 1 round/class level; afterward, the massivist is fatigued for 1d4-1 minutes (min. 1).

Ironskin (Ex): Upon attaining 7th level, a massivist gains an understanding of his mass that goes far beyond that which most could hope to achieve. His damage reduction and natural armor improve, to 5/- and +6 respectively.

Supermassive (Ex): A massivist begins to draw all those around him towards him as he gains in bulk, forming a small gravitational field around himself. Beginning at 7th level, if the massivist spends a move action to activate this ability, any time a creature, friend or foe, is within 20 feet of the massivist when the massivist begins his turn, each must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 massivist level + Con) or be drawn five feet towards him. If this would move them into another solid object (a wall, the massivist, or another obstruction), this save is instead to avoid falling prone. This effect can be ended with a swift action.

Elemental Resilience III (Ex): A massivist of 8th level can confound even decently powerful magic-users. He now has energy resistance 10 to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic.

Made of Tougher Stuff (Ex): A massivist is made of sterner stuff than average men. At 9th level, he passively gains a bonus on all saves equal to his constitution bonus; this gives twice his constitution bonus to fortitude.

Massive Meleeist (Ex): A massivist’s mass not only improves defensive capabilities; his offensive capabilities increase as well. At 10th level, he learns to use his mass to enhance his attacks. He can now use his constitution bonus instead of his strength bonus on melee attack and damage rolls.

Skin of Mithril (Ex): At 11th level, the massivist’s mass is far denser than it has ever been before. So tightly packed are his molecules, he is as hard to pierce as mithril. His damage reduction is now 10/-, and his natural armor is now +7.

Elemental Resilience IV (Ex): At 12th level, the massivist laughs at common fires, wintry weather, and bolts of lightning. All of his energy resistances improve to 15.

Gravitational Pull (Ex): Whenever a hostile spell is cast or targeted within 50 feet of a massivist of 13th level or higher, that spell automatically targets the massivist, and only the massivist. If the spell has an area of effect, the massivist becomes either the target or the center of the area (whichever is most appropriate), and the area is halved. This can result in some area of effect spells being wasted - if a massivist is 30 feet away from a mage casting burning hands, for example, the center of the cone would be the massivist's position, but it would still only travel out to 15 feet. The massivist can suppress this effect as a swift action; re-enabling it is a move action.

Impenetrability (Ex): Like a mountain, a massivist is so massive and dense that striking him would do little harm. At 15th level, he is nearly immune to common weaponry, and even men of great strength admit their blows would have little effect. His damage reduction is now 15/-, and his natural armor is now +8.

Elemental Resilience V (Ex): Powerful wizards are confounded with the massivist’s near-immunity to the elements achieved at level 16. Fireballs harmlessly explode around him. His energy resistances are 20 to all five.

Disabling Pull (Ex): Upon reaching 17th level, the massivist's gravitational field is greatly improved in every way. If a creature is within 40 feet of the massivist when the massivist begins his turn, each must make a Fortitude save (DC 15 + 1/2 massivist level + Con) or be drawn 10 feet towards him and be knocked prone. The massivist may choose to exclude up to 3 creatures from his gravitational field as a minor action; this must be decided before the gravitational field comes into effect.

Solidarity (Ex): At 19th level, a massivist has finally achieved the state, known as “solidarity,” which is his ultimate goal. At this state, his molecules are so densely packed that he is as one mass, with no holes in his defenses. His damage reduction improves to 20/-, and his natural armor bonus becomes +9.

Elemental Resilience VI (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a massivist’s ability to resist energy damage has become so mighty, it is greater than that of minor deities. His energy resistances in acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic improve to 25.

Perfect Negation (Ex): At 20th level, a massivist achieves near physical perfection. He no longer suffers any penalties for aging, and his maximum age is increased to three times its prior number. In addition, when rolling a saving throw, his result is treated as the higher of itself or his constitution score.


All right, so, any thoughts? Things I should change? Adjust? Other such?

Note: If anyone wants to use this (especially after it is determined to be "good" or at least decent), go ahead! Just PM me how it goes (or went). I'd like to see--or read, rather--how my class does!

Vulaas
2012-01-03, 06:58 PM
Losing the ability to wear armor is huge, especially when you are meant to be a melee combatant. Combine that with your mid ranged BAB, and decent, but not great natural defenses (other than your saves which will be excellent), and I'm not really sure what it is supposed to be doing.

I'd consider giving them an unarmed attack progression like the monk, possibly naturally enchanting them along the way (collision seems like a natural fit for enhancements), and maybe finding something to fill out the dead levels you have at 13 and 18

Gnorman
2012-01-03, 07:12 PM
Natural armor bonus does not compare to potential armor bonus from wearing armor. +6 natural armor at level 20 is a pittance - a 1st level fighter gets that from banded mail (250 gp).

Defensive class is not defensive, basically.

Also kind of boring overall - scaling numerical bonuses to defenses with the occasional "become more SAD" ability do not an interesting class make.

thedarkstone
2012-01-03, 08:10 PM
Losing the ability to wear armor is huge, especially when you are meant to be a melee combatant. Combine that with your mid ranged BAB, and decent, but not great natural defenses (other than your saves which will be excellent), and I'm not really sure what it is supposed to be doing.

I'd consider giving them an unarmed attack progression like the monk, possibly naturally enchanting them along the way (collision seems like a natural fit for enhancements), and maybe finding something to fill out the dead levels you have at 13 and 18
All right, I can work in other features; my only problem was that in their first incarnation, they were way too powerful. So, I toned them down. I can easily build them back up if need be.


Natural armor bonus does not compare to potential armor bonus from wearing armor. +6 natural armor at level 20 is a pittance - a 1st level fighter gets that from banded mail (250 gp).

Defensive class is not defensive, basically.

Also kind of boring overall - scaling numerical bonuses to defenses with the occasional "become more SAD" ability do not an interesting class make.
Kindly refrain from posting if you don't have any helpful remarks to make; telling me I did something wrong doesn't help fix it.

Steward
2012-01-03, 08:33 PM
Do you think they could get some kind of slam attack? Not getting full BAB is kind of rough for a melee combat, even with the Constitution bonus (good idea, by the way!). One of the difficult things with being a tank-type character in 3.5 is that there isn't really a way to attract enemies to you. This guy is hard to affect, but he doesn't seem to have an obviously high damage potential -- it's likely that an intelligent opponent (after seeing that he's resistant to a lot of things) might just decide to move around him and attack his weaker teammates.

They don't seem that overpowered now though, which is good. I agree with the suggestion that they need to either be able to wear armor or get something to make up for the fact that they don't wear armor. I like the damage reduction but his natural armor bonus is very, very low (a +6 to armor).

One idea that I've seen with some monk fixes is that you can enchant body parts. In those, the brewer let the player enchant their unarmed strikes (like what Vulaas mentioned) but there's no reason why you couldn't let the players enchant their bodies with some of these traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm), right? It might also alleviate the "boringness" of the class by allowing a variety of alternative class features; one massivist might decide to go for the 'etherealness' feature while another might choose undead-controlling, for example. (You could probably make some other enchantments too).

Overall, I think it's a really solid class (no pun intended). It would be great if you could take some of those tweaks into consideration to give it a little bit more variety and viability at higher levels.

Gnorman
2012-01-03, 08:56 PM
Kindly refrain from posting if you don't have any helpful remarks to make; telling me I did something wrong doesn't help fix it.

That was intended to be helpful - no need to lash out at me for attempting to point out areas for improvement.

Let me frame it this way for you:

The natural armor bonus should be higher, perhaps beginning at +4 (a basic amount of armor for a level 1 character) and scaling up to +8 (equivalent to full plate), instead of from +1 to +6. Basically, by preventing the massivist from wearing armor, you're actually decreasing its defensive potential.

I also recommend coming up with abilities that do more than just increase energy resistance, damage reduction, armor class or allow you to replace something with Constitution. Growth, Body of Armor, and Perfect Negation are so far the only abilities that aren't straight numerical replacement or bonuses, and even then Body of Armor just allows the massivist to do what any other armor-wearing class can do. Essentially, what I would like to see is increased options, rather than just increased numbers. Expand on those, using the principles behind the class - what can a really, really massive person do? Perhaps something along the lines of the Dungeoncrasher fighter? Perhaps something to attract enemies to attack that massive person (because honestly, the problem with a tank in D&D isn't the defense, but getting the enemies to target you)? Perhaps some kind of local gravity well that sucks enemies in, forcing them to move towards and/or target the massivist? Maybe any spell that comes within 30 feet of them automatically targets them instead, becoming some kind of magical black hole?

As I see it, this class needs development towards A.) meaningful options beyond standing there soaking up attacks and B.) a way to enforce all those defenses.

Think about what this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blob_%28comics%29) can do.

thedarkstone
2012-01-03, 08:56 PM
Do you think they could get some kind of slam attack? Not getting full BAB is kind of rough for a melee combat, even with the Constitution bonus (good idea, by the way!). One of the difficult things with being a tank-type character in 3.5 is that there isn't really a way to attract enemies to you. This guy is hard to affect, but he doesn't seem to have an obviously high damage potential -- it's likely that an intelligent opponent (after seeing that he's resistant to a lot of things) might just decide to move around him and attack his weaker teammates.

They don't seem that overpowered now though, which is good. I agree with the suggestion that they need to either be able to wear armor or get something to make up for the fact that they don't wear armor. I like the damage reduction but his natural armor bonus is very, very low (a +6 to armor).

One idea that I've seen with some monk fixes is that you can enchant body parts. In those, the brewer let the player enchant their unarmed strikes (like what Vulaas mentioned) but there's no reason why you couldn't let the players enchant their bodies with some of these traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm), right? It might also alleviate the "boringness" of the class by allowing a variety of alternative class features; one massivist might decide to go for the 'etherealness' feature while another might choose undead-controlling, for example. (You could probably make some other enchantments too).

Overall, I think it's a really solid class (no pun intended). It would be great if you could take some of those tweaks into consideration to give it a little bit more variety and viability at higher levels.
I liked the idea of enchanting their body so much, I made the ability "Body of Armor"! Thanks!

A slam attack, you say? Perhaps that would be a good fix, rather than a full unarmed attack progression. (Not to diss unarmed attack progressions; I just don't see it with the idea of the class)


That was intended to be helpful - no need to lash out at me for attempting to point out areas for improvement.

Let me frame it this way for you, in a more "helpful" phrasing:

The natural armor bonus should be higher, perhaps beginning at +4 (a basic amount of armor for a level 1 character) and scaling up to +8 (equivalent to full plate), instead of from +1 to +6. Basically, by preventing the massivist from wearing armor, you're actually decreasing its defensive potential.

I also recommend coming up with abilities that do more than just increase energy resistance, damage reduction, armor class or allow you to replace something with Constitution. Growth, Body of Armor, and Perfect Negation are so far the only abilities that aren't straight numerical replacement or bonuses, and even then Body of Armor just allows the massivist to do what any other armor-wearing class can do. Essentially, what I would like to see is increased options, rather than just increased numbers. Expand on those, using the principles behind the class - what can a really, really massive person do? Perhaps something along the lines of the Dungeoncrasher fighter? Perhaps something to attract enemies to attack that massive person (because honestly, the problem with a tank in D&D isn't the defense, but getting the enemies to target you)? Perhaps some kind of local gravity well that sucks enemies in, forcing them to move towards and/or target the massivist? Maybe any spell that comes within 30 feet of them automatically targets them instead, becoming some kind of magical black hole?

As I see it, this class needs development towards A.) meaningful options beyond standing there soaking up attacks and B.) a way to enforce all those defenses.
Well, I wasn't lashing out; sometimes the mind places sarcasm where it was not intended. It was just a simple sentence; if you are going to post, I would prefer it to be a suggested fix, rather than just telling me I have an uninteresting class :smallamused:

Whereas what you posted now is quite helpful indeed. +4 to +8 scaling might work; I'll change it but it seems to me it may be making the class too powerful. That was why they have low natural armor; their damage reduction soaks up most damage headed at them. Having high natural armor on top of that seemed a bit much.

I like the "gravity well" and "magical black hole" ideas. I'll try to incorporate those into abilities.

Dragon Star
2012-01-03, 09:07 PM
Kindly refrain from posting if you don't have any helpful remarks to make; telling me I did something wrong doesn't help fix it.

Um, if you want the class to improve, then people are going to have to critique it. Gnorman was a little harsh, but he is right to some degree. It has potential, and I really like the idea, but as is it isn't nearly powerful enough. I could (and have) made fighters who are better then the Massivist would be at defence.

So, improvements. First, let it wear armor. Natural armor normally stacks with regular armor, no reason why it shouldn't here. And the natural armor is a little slow. There are monsters that have better, and concidering the way this class works I think maybe it should end at 12 as opposed to six. The DR is fine as is, but don't think it makes up for lower AC. 5th level fighters can easily do 40 damage per round, even without huge amounts of optimization. And I think you should add a class feature that lets you use con instead of dex to AC. Maybe even at 1st level.

Well-constitutioned should be every 4 levels. 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, and then another at 20. A total of +6 over 20 levels isn't OP at all, and considering that the whole class is based around con it works well.

Also, this is a combat class. Admittedly defensive combat, but still. Not ever getting hit won't matter if you can't hit anything either. This should absolutely have full BAB.

Last thing is also pretty big. This is a useless class in a party. I mean, it can solo very well, but you don't solo in D&D. It has very good defense (Or the potential for) but mediocre attack. And what can something with ridicules defense do for the party? Nothing. So what you need to do is add either something ti transfer his defense and HP to other party members, making him an amazing bodyguard, or give him huge bonuses to grappling or the like.

That's it for now, but I'll post again if I think of anything else, or if you make changes.

thedarkstone
2012-01-03, 09:18 PM
Um, if you want the class to improve, then people are going to have to critique it. Gnorman was a little harsh, but he is right to some degree. It has potential, and I really like the idea, but as is it isn't nearly powerful enough. I could (and have) made fighters who are better then the Massivist would be at defence.

So, improvements. First, let it wear armor. Natural armor normally stacks with regular armor, no reason why it shouldn't here. And the natural armor is a little slow. There are monsters that have better, and concidering the way this class works I think maybe it should end at 12 as opposed to six. The DR is fine as is, but don't think it makes up for lower AC. 5th level fighters can easily do 40 damage per round, even without huge amounts of optimization. And I think you should add a class feature that lets you use con instead of dex to AC. Maybe even at 1st level.

Well-constitutioned should be every 4 levels. 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, and then another at 20. A total of +6 over 20 levels isn't OP at all, and considering that the whole class is based around con it works well.

Also, this is a combat class. Admittedly defensive combat, but still. Not ever getting hit won't matter if you can't hit anything either. This should absolutely have full BAB.

Last thing is also pretty big. This is a useless class in a party. I mean, it can solo very well, but you don't solo in D&D. It has very good defense (Or the potential for) but mediocre attack. And what can something with ridicules defense do for the party? Nothing. So what you need to do is add either something ti transfer his defense and HP to other party members, making him an amazing bodyguard, or give him huge bonuses to grappling or the like.

That's it for now, but I'll post again if I think of anything else, or if you make changes.
Regardless of being right, I just asked if he would make suggestions rather than simply telling me I did something wrong. I can accept helpful critiques just fine; like yours, for example, or Gnorman's second post.

Also, I thank you for the ideas. I'll work on something; the BAB I can adjust immediately, and I'll think about how to increase the Natural armor progression and not make it overpowered or the like.

As for the usefulness in the party, well, Gnorman has given me some key ideas.

Thurbane
2012-01-03, 09:19 PM
Interesting concept for a class, but I agree with previous comments that it needs more to do than just be defensive. Maybe some sort of touch attack usable X times/day that weakens an opponent - something like Reduce, perhaps?

Also, resistance to energy 1 at 1st level is hardly worth a class feature. I'd wait for it to kick in at 5, and not worry about about resistance 1, but that's purely personal preference.

I think this certainly has potential, and is a very original class concept, but might work better as a PrC perhaps.

Gnorman
2012-01-03, 09:23 PM
No worries, I could have been somewhat less direct in my original approach. I understand where you're coming from, and I apologize for my original brusqueness. I tend to be a bit blunt.

But here's the reason I made the comment: D&D is full of classes that increase the numbers, so to speak. They're fine, they work, they're just not as fun.

I'll let one of the Dukes of Homebrew, Djinn in Tonic, do my talking for me here:


But the Numbers Go Up: Nine times out of ten, a mere upwards numerical progression makes for an underwhelming creation. It's for this reason that feats like Weapon Focus are often overlooked: a +1 bonus rarely makes the cut. Even things like Improved Disarm at least add a kicker to the bonus (in this case, you can't be disarmed on a failed attempt). If you find your creation boils down to a few little increases on already existing abilities, but doesn't really add anything new or unique (a staff-master class that adds to AC, attack rolls, reach, and damage, for instance, but doesn't really learn any interesting techniques or develop unique class features), you're selling yourself short. Think up some creative ways to explore your topic: most players would rather have a fun new ability or an interesting variation on an existing one than a mere +2 damage bonus.

It's a philosophy I've tried hard to follow, and one I've admittedly not done in all my creations. But new, interesting, varied abilities that give you new options, whether in combat or out, make for the best homebrew. Abilities that let you do more in combat than just move and attack, move and attack. Right now, the massivist's game plan in combat is probably the same as your standard fighter - move and attack, five-foot step and full attack. What could it do that no other class can? As it stands, a fighter with gobs of epic magical equipment can almost replicate the entirety of this class through numerical scaling. If you focus on the creative aspects, I think you'll be able to find a number of unique, flavorful abilities that work perfectly for the class.

For example, I'd put forth this as an ability:

Gravitational Pull: Whenever a hostile spell is cast or targeted within fifty feet of a massivist of 13th level or higher, that spell automatically targets the massivist, and only the massivist. If the spell has an area of effect, the massivist becomes either the target or the center of the area (whichever is most appropriate), and the area is halved. This can result in some area of effect spells being wasted - if a massivist is thirty feet away from a mage casting burning hands, for example, the center of the cone would be the massivist's position, but it would still only travel out to fifteen feet.

Can you think of many other classes that can do something like that? All of a sudden the massivist is now a capable party anti-mage, but he's still hit with the full force of the spell - he's just very good at making sure his party members aren't. Now the massivist has to think about strategy, positioning - do I stand close to my party members so that I can protect them from physical attacks, or do I stand farther away from them so that fireball hits me and not them? It creates a tension, I think, that lends itself more towards tactical thinking. This may not be in the scope of your original project, however, so feel free to ignore it if it doesn't work for you - I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak.

thedarkstone
2012-01-03, 09:37 PM
Interesting concept for a class, but I agree with previous comments that it needs more to do than just be defensive. Maybe some sort of touch attack usable X times/day that weakens an opponent - something like Reduce, perhaps?

Also, resistance to energy 1 at 1st level is hardly worth a class feature. I'd wait for it to kick in at 5, and not worry about about resistance 1, but that's purely personal preference.

I think this certainly has potential, and is a very original class concept, but might work better as a PrC perhaps.
Thanks for the input! It's not entirely what I was going for, but I'll keep that in mind. As for base class or PrC...I chose base class because that's what I was going for. I'd have to REALLY dumb this down to make it a PrC. I'd rather not do that, you know?


No worries, I could have been somewhat less direct in my original approach. I understand where you're coming from, and I apologize for my original brusqueness. I tend to be a bit blunt.

But here's the reason I made the comment: D&D is full of classes that increase the numbers, so to speak. They're fine, they work, they're just not as fun.

I'll let one of the Dukes of Homebrew, Djinn in Tonic, do my talking for me here:



It's a philosophy I've tried hard to follow, and one I've admittedly not done in all my creations. But new, interesting, varied abilities that give you new options, whether in combat or out, make for the best homebrew. Abilities that let you do more in combat than just move and attack, move and attack. Right now, the massivist's game plan in combat is probably the same as your standard fighter - move and attack, five-foot step and full attack. What could it do that no other class can? As it stands, a fighter with gobs of epic magical equipment can almost replicate the entirety of this class through numerical scaling. If you focus on the creative aspects, I think you'll be able to find a number of unique, flavorful abilities that work perfectly for the class.

For example, I'd put forth this as an ability:

Gravitational Pull: Whenever a hostile spell is cast or targeted within fifty feet of a massivist of 13th level or higher, that spell automatically targets the massivist, and only the massivist. If the spell has an area of effect, the massivist becomes either the target or the center of the area (whichever is most appropriate), and the area is halved.

Can you think of many other classes that can do something like that? All of a sudden the massivist is now a capable party anti-mage, but he's still hit with the full force of the spell - he's just very good at making sure his party members don't.
Huh. That's...wonderful. I should post stuff up here more often! Talented homebrewers can be found, it seems. I'll add that, actually, right now. I really like it! So long as you don't mind me using it, of course.

Gnorman
2012-01-03, 09:38 PM
Not in the slightest - it's yours now.

Thurbane
2012-01-03, 09:54 PM
As for base class or PrC...I chose base class because that's what I was going for. I'd have to REALLY dumb this down to make it a PrC. I'd rather not do that, you know?
Totally understand - it's your baby, after all. :smallwink:

thedarkstone
2012-01-03, 10:07 PM
Not in the slightest - it's yours now.
Thank you, I've added that and I'm working on a gravity well-esque ability to draw enemies towards them.


Totally understand - it's your baby, after all. :smallwink:
One of the many. I've just not posted them up here yet. I've got five other homebrew classes, a bunch of feats...and I'm working on a homebrew setting with a friend of mine in my spare time. There seems to be little enough of that.

Augmental
2012-01-03, 11:06 PM
Hey, if you need an ability to fill in level 17, here's an idea.

Disabling Pull (Ex): Upon reaching 17th level, the massivist's gravitational field is greatly improved in every way. If a creature is within 40 feet of the massivist when the massivist begins his turn, each must make a Fortitude save (DC 15 + 1/2 massivist level + Con) or be drawn 10 feet towards him and be knocked prone. The massivist may choose to exclude up to 3 creatures from his gravitational field as a minor action; this must be decided before the gravitational field comes into effect.

thedarkstone
2012-01-03, 11:11 PM
Hey, if you need an ability to fill in level 17, here's an idea.

Disabling Pull (Ex): Upon reaching 17th level, the massivist's gravitational field is greatly improved in every way. If a creature is within 40 feet of the massivist when the massivist begins his turn, each must make a Fortitude save (DC 15 + 1/2 massivist level + Con) or be drawn 10 feet towards him and be knocked prone. The massivist may choose to exclude up to 3 creatures from his gravitational field as a minor action; this must be decided before the gravitational field comes into effect.
...simply put, yes. Wonderful. Thank you kindly, good sir.

General Patton
2012-01-05, 11:02 AM
I see some issues with Supermassive and Disabling Pull, namely that you are going to cause a lot of trouble while in public places or just interacting with anyone. Have to go into town for the social/investigation portion of an adventure? Have fun being a commoner katamari. Need to spend some time getting your body enchanted? I'm real sure those spell casters will appreciate being prone and stuck to your torso while they're trying to do arcane magic. I recommend this be activated as a move action and dismissed with a swift.

thedarkstone
2012-01-05, 12:04 PM
I see some issues with Supermassive and Disabling Pull, namely that you are going to cause a lot of trouble while in public places or just interacting with anyone. Have to go into town for the social/investigation portion of an adventure? Have fun being a commoner katamari. Need to spend some time getting your body enchanted? I'm real sure those spell casters will appreciate being prone and stuck to your torso while they're trying to do arcane magic. I recommend this be activated as a move action and dismissed with a swift.
...*facepalm*
Obvious problem is obvious. Thank you, sir, I'll adjust it accordingly.

Roderick_BR
2012-01-06, 08:17 AM
It's an interesting class, and I actually would like to try it, but... he gets some really cool stuff, but is very limited. He gains DR, Con to various rolls, and some effect to attract stuff. And what else? He can do even less things than a monk, other than walk up to something (or attracting it) and punch it. It could work as a 10 levels PrC, though. Combining it with Monk would make a very cool (SAD) build.

thedarkstone
2012-01-06, 02:19 PM
It's an interesting class, and I actually would like to try it, but... he gets some really cool stuff, but is very limited. He gains DR, Con to various rolls, and some effect to attract stuff. And what else? He can do even less things than a monk, other than walk up to something (or attracting it) and punch it. It could work as a 10 levels PrC, though. Combining it with Monk would make a very cool (SAD) build.
Indeed; someone else suggested an unarmed attack progression, but I've also received an idea for a slam attack, possibly scaling. I'm likely going to include that.

As for anything else, any ideas anyone has to spruce it up; even bare bones of ideas I can run off of would help.

Steward
2012-01-06, 03:48 PM
Maybe the massivist could get an ability that lets it control its own mass. That way, they can be bulky walking black holes when they need to be, but if someone shoves them off the back of a moving skeleton dragon -- for example -- they can make themselves as light as a feather and fall safely to the ground.

Ruthless fist seems really solid to me.

thedarkstone
2012-01-06, 03:53 PM
Maybe the massivist could get an ability that lets it control its own mass. That way, they can be bulky walking black holes when they need to be, but if someone shoves them off the back of a moving skeleton dragon -- for example -- they can make themselves as light as a feather and fall safely to the ground.

Ruthless fist seems really solid to me.
Hmm. That's a good idea. Give them the ability to adjust their weight under pressure. I like it. Also, thanks for the input on Ruthless Fist.