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The Giant
2012-01-04, 10:24 AM
New comic is up.

Aricandor
2012-01-04, 10:26 AM
Now we'll never know if he's getting promoted. :smallfrown:

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-04, 10:30 AM
Oh sh- Did not see that one coming!

It's a good thing they didn't leave any survivors...I don't even want to see how pissed Xykon would be if he found out about this... (Although, if the paladin has levels in Fist of Raziel, I guess we'll never have to find out)

eulmanis12
2012-01-04, 10:30 AM
perhaps he will get a "raise"

Great commic

Adicted To
2012-01-04, 10:32 AM
Great comic Mr Giant. Never saw it comming, neither did the Hobgoblin :smallbiggrin:

sirveaux
2012-01-04, 10:32 AM
I actually fist-pumped in my office! Go Azure City Underground!

Soleyfir
2012-01-04, 10:33 AM
Incoming Michael Corleone moment for Xykon:
"And just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"

Inkling
2012-01-04, 10:34 AM
I love these guys.

Blisstake
2012-01-04, 10:34 AM
Huh, well that certainly wasn't what I was expecting.

I guess Xykon will just have to wait a bit longer :smallamused:

Qwertystop
2012-01-04, 10:37 AM
That was awesome.

Xykon probably doesn't even know that they found it, so all the hobs will still be caught up searching!

Will Xykon know if it's destroyed?

Apocalypse Candy from a doombaby...

fishboy
2012-01-04, 10:37 AM
Ahhhhh, an unexpected turn of events and an exellent parting joke, you never fail to impress and entertain me Giant :smallsmile:

Gaius
2012-01-04, 10:38 AM
Pleasant surprise is pleasant. :smalltongue:

This could mean Xykon won't be visiting the Western Continent as soon as predicted. But the Resistance Azure City Underground aren't out of the woods yet.

TheSummoner
2012-01-04, 10:38 AM
Perfect thing to see after waking up...

Though can't they just have someone cast speak with dead?

The MunchKING
2012-01-04, 10:40 AM
Wow they are TOTALLY on their game!! That is an impressive turn around time.

And first page?? I'm shocked.

Draconi Redfir
2012-01-04, 10:41 AM
Noooo! The Hobgoblin Adventuring Group!:smallfrown:

Gaddang meddlesome resistance, always ruining everything.

Wanda V'Orcus
2012-01-04, 10:42 AM
Perfect thing to see after waking up...

Though can't they just have someone cast speak with dead?

Yep -- and Xykon's cast it on goblins/hobgoblins for picayune reasons in the past, like finding out where his keys are, and so on... :smallwink:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

Peelee
2012-01-04, 10:43 AM
Beautiful. I was perfectly content with letting the phylactery end up back in the baddies hands, as I figured when it was lost, either side could have found it first. I really like where this is going.... as I pretty much always do with this comic.

I will, however, take this time to say "neener neener" to everyone complaining about goblins finding the phylactery last strip.

Narren
2012-01-04, 10:46 AM
Perfect thing to see after waking up...

Though can't they just have someone cast speak with dead?

They could, but they might just regard this as another attack from the resistance. Then again, they might cast speak with dead on EVERY group attacked in the city, just to gather intel. I guess it depends on how regular these attacks are. And I just said the word "attack" in every sentence. Attack.

Nohar
2012-01-04, 10:47 AM
Well, I certainly did not expect that :smallbiggrin:

Bleak Ink
2012-01-04, 10:48 AM
Damn it!! Ugh!

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-04, 10:48 AM
HOW DID THEY KNOW!?!??!
:smalleek:

Bastian Weaver
2012-01-04, 10:49 AM
Haha, yeah! Take THAT, Team Evil!

Craft (Cheese)
2012-01-04, 10:49 AM
It's an interesting twist, but I still can't help but feel a little disappointed: This means it'll be another 200 strips before we ever see what the goblins are up to again.

silvadel
2012-01-04, 10:50 AM
Wow -- the good guys pull a "I don't have to collect up all the quest items -- I just have to take you out when you find it(in some stories the villian finds ONE and then waits while the hero gets all the rest)"

I did NOT see that one coming and this is a real bad development for the X man and even more so for wrong-eye.

Shular
2012-01-04, 10:51 AM
HOW DID THEY KNOW!?!??!
:smalleek:

Exactly. And if they know, then I have no doubt our favorite epic level undead bundle of badness knows as well.

And maybe uses it to track down the resistance?

Radar
2012-01-04, 10:53 AM
I must say it was very, very clever move. The best course of action now would be to teleport out with the thingmabob into a secure area far away. I wonder if it's possible considering Dorukan's epic spell.

HOW DID THEY KNOW!?!??!
:smalleek:
Divinations on the searching teams? The phylactery is protected, but hobgoblin minions aren't.

Karoug
2012-01-04, 10:53 AM
It's not a very bright idea to mess with Xykon's stuff... He's not going to be happy when he finds out.

silvadel
2012-01-04, 10:54 AM
It is completely untrackable and untracable with more anti-divination spells than most of us could think of. Really good for stopping others from finding it... Not so much for if you lose it.

SatyreIkon
2012-01-04, 10:55 AM
HOLY ... nice twist, Giant. I already wonder what Xykon's reaction to THAT one will be ... :smalleek: And how the Resistance might be using it to their advantage ... :smallamused:

Thalnawr
2012-01-04, 10:56 AM
HOW DID THEY KNOW!?!??!
:smalleek:
It's possible the Resistance or Azure City Underground or Azure City Liberation Front or whatever has agents trying to watch every search team they can.

On Divinations: The Cloister spell should be protecting the hobgoblins from divination as well, since Xykon has been casting it every couple of weeks or so. (see panel 7) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html)

Vinsfeld
2012-01-04, 10:57 AM
Incoming Michael Corleone moment for Xykon:
"And just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"


I bet that if Xykon finds out about this, he's going to make them an offer they can't refuse.

Peelee
2012-01-04, 10:57 AM
It's an interesting twist, but I still can't help but feel a little disappointed: This means it'll be another 200 strips before we ever see what the goblins are up to again.

Just like how for the last strip, everyone was complaining that the strip meant the phylactery being lost was just a stall tactic to keep Team Evil at bay? Or that it meant they would be teleporting to Windy Canyon in two rounds?

I'm already neener neenering everyone in the last strip's thread who tried to predict something like that. Don't make me do it again here. I'm starting to get neenered out!

Dr.Epic
2012-01-04, 10:59 AM
So...is the comic going to be over in the next few strips?:smallconfused: The good guys have the phylactery, know what it is, and the villains don't know they have. Even given all the protections on it, I think if they spent enough time they could destroy it.

Trufflehound
2012-01-04, 10:59 AM
I would have expected Redcloak (by which I mean that high-level cleric) to put up more of a resistance. I guess somebody got a low initiative roll.

Wanda V'Orcus
2012-01-04, 11:00 AM
Well, I certainly did not expect that :smallbiggrin:

Neither did the hobgoblins... :smalltongue:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

SteveDJ
2012-01-04, 11:01 AM
I would have expected Redcloak to put up more of a resistance. I guess somebody got a low initiative roll.

Redcloak? What red cloak? Looks like Bluecoat to me... :smallbiggrin:

Thalnawr
2012-01-04, 11:03 AM
I would have expected Redcloak (by which I mean that high-level cleric) to put up more of a resistance. I guess somebody got a low initiative roll.

There's really no indication that he's a high level cleric at all. We don't know what the color hierarchy for the cloaks even means, other than red = high priest due to the Crimson Mantle.

Grey_Wolf_c
2012-01-04, 11:03 AM
So...is the comic going to be over in the next few strips?:smallconfused: The good guys have the phylactery, know what it is, and the villains don't know they have. Even given all the protections on it, I think if they spent enough time they could destroy it.

Destroying the phylactery won't destroy Xykon - only prevents him from regenerating if someone does manage to destroy him. The tall order part of that plan - destroying an epic-level Lich - is well beyond the abilities of the resistance. Xykon, however, may have been working on a second phylactery, or given his usual lack of patience and planning, he may go ahead without it.

Grey Wolf

Landis963
2012-01-04, 11:05 AM
So...is the comic going to be over in the next few strips?:smallconfused: The good guys have the phylactery, know what it is, and the villains don't know they have. Even given all the protections on it, I think if they spent enough time they could destroy it.

Don't forget, Tarquin & co are still after Girard's Gate, and we still have the IFCC to worry about. Not to mention, of course, that despite the danger Xykon might port out anyway out of impatience.

Stabbey
2012-01-04, 11:05 AM
So...is the comic going to be over in the next few strips?:smallconfused: The good guys have the phylactery, know what it is, and the villains don't know they have. Even given all the protections on it, I think if they spent enough time they could destroy it.

That wouldn't kill Xykon because his soul is in his body at the moment, not the phylactery.

I did not see that twist coming, great job!

My guess for what will happen next is that Xykon will decide to take a gamble and leave for Windy Canyon without getting his phylactery back.

Ninjaman
2012-01-04, 11:06 AM
Awesome strip.

And by the whole red cloak defence thing i think Trufflehound meant that he would not have small groups run around with it but have back-up.

Rastaban
2012-01-04, 11:08 AM
What a shocking surprise, loved the Doom Baby line :D

SteveDJ
2012-01-04, 11:08 AM
HOW DID THEY KNOW!?!??!
:smalleek:

Maybe they read strip #823, too? :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Roland Itiative
2012-01-04, 11:08 AM
I was not expecting this :smalleek:

Guess Xykon won't be going to the next Gate so soon.

Scarlet Knight
2012-01-04, 11:11 AM
Great strip! Totally unexpected! I love that the story is going in a Niu direction! :smallbiggrin:

Dr.Epic
2012-01-04, 11:12 AM
Don't forget, Tarquin & co are still after Girard's Gate, and we still have the IFCC to worry about. Not to mention, of course, that despite the danger Xykon might port out anyway out of impatience.

That's...really...lame.

You can't just switch main antagonist this late in the story especially when these new guys have just been introduced. It doesn't work.

Jay R
2012-01-04, 11:17 AM
OK, so when are we going to stop assuming we know what will happen next?

I officially refuse to assume that the elves will make it out of the city with the phylactery until we see it happen.

Peelee
2012-01-04, 11:19 AM
That's...really...lame.

You can't just switch main antagonist this late in the story especially when these new guys have just been introduced. It doesn't work.

...Tarquin knows the Gate exists. Xykon knows the gate exists, where it came from, what it is, and (he believes he knows) how to control it, and is allied with - or should I say, in command of - the only character in the entire story who knows the ritual to control it.

Sooooo..... how is the main antagonist switching? Seriously, how do you even think that is a possibility? Just because a (read: not "THE") villain has popped up who is competent and successful does not mean he is taking over as the main antagonist, especially when absolutely nothing points to that, and it would make absolutely zero sense in the story.



OK, so when are we going to stop assuming we know what will happen next?

I officially refuse to assume that the elves will make it out of the city with the phylactery until we see it happen.
You, good sir, will not be neenered!

Half-Orc Rage
2012-01-04, 11:19 AM
That's pretty cool, hadn't seen the resistance in a while. Anything is a step down after the awesome Tarquin strips, but the phylactery might be an important plot element later on. Punchline was great too.

Brumski
2012-01-04, 11:24 AM
I like the dialogue that shows they new exactly what they were doing, implying they had a further plan for the phylactery, instead of just giving Xykon a reason to turn his full attention to the Resistance.

I'm surprised that so many people are surprised by this twist...

_Jarlaxle_
2012-01-04, 11:26 AM
Oh come on, now you are stretching it ;-)

But I love the last two panels :smallbiggrin:

Who149
2012-01-04, 11:26 AM
so THEY stole my Apocalypse candy when I was a child!

Blaznak
2012-01-04, 11:27 AM
Its good to see the underground is still hard at work. Fun episode! Now if only we can have a few weeks of each side ambushing the other and thinking they have the phylactery... ;)

Zeteni
2012-01-04, 11:28 AM
I foresee a speak with dead spell in the near future. Possibly several to help mitigate any vagueness.

silvadel
2012-01-04, 11:31 AM
If it were re-taken back I would expect the title of the strip to be "Hot Potato."

Kish
2012-01-04, 11:31 AM
That's...really...lame.

You can't just switch main antagonist this late in the story especially when these new guys have just been introduced. It doesn't work.
As Grey Wolf pointed out to you, destroying the phylactery would not end the comic or Xykon.

Castamir
2012-01-04, 11:31 AM
Since the phylactery holds the lich's soul, there is no way Xykon will be able to make a new one.

The SRD is not clear whether destroying the phylactery kills the lich outright, but at least in the source myth, it did. Heck, it was even the only way to bring Koschey down.

pendell
2012-01-04, 11:35 AM
Ahhh, the plot thickens.

Why do I have the nasty suspicion that the elves' racism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) will come back to bite them?

This should be interesting. I'll lay odds that, after all this time, the resistance is at least partially infiltrated by Redcloak's spies. Humans paid off, possibly, or under the effect of Dominate Person.

Another possibility would be if one of the hobgoblins survived the massacre via Invisibility, and survives to tell the tale.

Which means it probably won't be long before Xykon becomes aware of the phylactery, and shows up to reclaim it.

Given that there's no one in the comic who can stand up to Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest, it'll take some roguish sneakiness to keep the phylactery away from him.

Nicely done!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

avakeiya
2012-01-04, 11:38 AM
WOOOOOT!!! Hell yeah!!

Didn't expect the resistance to pop up again. And i bet the Lich is kicking himself in the tail bone for all of the Cloisters he's cast.

I'm wondering if they need epic level magic to bypass all of the abjurations on the Phylactery.:smallconfused:

Cranica
2012-01-04, 11:41 AM
Since the phylactery holds the lich's soul, there is no way Xykon will be able to make a new one.

To be honest, the SRD isn't entirely clear on that point either. It seems reasonable to assume that, should the phylactery be destroyed and Xykon survive, he could transfer his soul to a new one.

I'm really curious to see where this is going, I was looking forward to Team Evil being able to show up in the melee for Girard's gate.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-01-04, 11:43 AM
Just like how for the last strip, everyone was complaining that the strip meant the phylactery being lost was just a stall tactic to keep Team Evil at bay? Or that it meant they would be teleporting to Windy Canyon in two rounds?

I'm already neener neenering everyone in the last strip's thread who tried to predict something like that. Don't make me do it again here. I'm starting to get neenered out!


Neener away. If it gets resolved faster than that, I'll be very happy.

Anarion
2012-01-04, 11:47 AM
Destroying the phylactery won't destroy Xykon - only prevents him from regenerating if someone does manage to destroy him. The tall order part of that plan - destroying an epic-level Lich - is well beyond the abilities of the resistance. Xykon, however, may have been working on a second phylactery, or given his usual lack of patience and planning, he may go ahead without it.

Grey Wolf


Since the phylactery holds the lich's soul, there is no way Xykon will be able to make a new one.

The SRD is not clear whether destroying the phylactery kills the lich outright, but at least in the source myth, it did. Heck, it was even the only way to bring Koschey down.

I think Grey Wolf is right actually. The SRD is unclear about what happens when the phylactery goes down, but OoTS is not. Xykon survives his phylactery's destruction, it just puts him on his last life.

Of more interest is the fact that the SRD is unclear about whether or not you can make additional phylacteries. They're made with craft wondrous item, which Xykon probably has as a feat, so in theory nothing is preventing him from making another phylactery. Moreover, OoTS seems to have implied that the soul is NOT in the phylactery unless the main body is destroyed, so making a new one is simply making a proper receptacle, as opposed to trying to replace a destroyed soul fragment. So, I would guess that a phylactery in OoTS world can be replaced.

That said, Xykon might be far too impatient to wait to replace it. :smallbiggrin:

Orzel
2012-01-04, 11:47 AM
Apocalypse Candy. Now with 50% more Famine.

See this is the logically of having level one minions. They can't hold on to anything. Ever.

kierthos
2012-01-04, 11:48 AM
Huh... Yeah, I'm not sure if you can make a second phylactery if the first one is destroyed. If he can make another one, I'd imagine that it's a bit of a process to do so. I mean, it's 120,000 gold in components to make one, and while we assume Xykon has plenty of treasure, he's lost one lair already...

Killer Angel
2012-01-04, 11:50 AM
:smallsigh:

please please please Xykon, teleport in and wipe 'em all.

AutomatedTeller
2012-01-04, 11:50 AM
That was... awesome. I didn't see that coming, at all.

Beowulf DW
2012-01-04, 11:50 AM
They forgot to say "Sneak Attack!"

Or "Ambush!"

Whiffet
2012-01-04, 11:52 AM
I'm happy because this quiets the people whining about how easily the phylactery problem was solved. But I'm unhappy because I kinda like that hobgoblin who found it. :smallfrown:

Does he mean an actual reward, or an ironic "final reward" reward?

danielmayer
2012-01-04, 11:54 AM
RIP Shelby, we always will remember you!
I bet this costs Redcloaks left hand :)

Lord Raziere
2012-01-04, 11:54 AM
Now where will this go, I wonder?

Gandariel
2012-01-04, 12:00 PM
It may be because i'm not English, but i didn't quite get the last two panels..

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-04, 12:00 PM
I knew exactly that would happen, yet it was still exciting. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think they're gonna keep it for long--I figure they want Team Evil's core members to leave so they could have a shot at reclaiming the city, but they don't want them to head out until the OOTS has made contact with a Draketooth.

Ravian
2012-01-04, 12:04 PM
I'm pretty sure from what I've read that Phlacteries can be replaced, but that it takes awhile. Patient is not high on Xykon's list of traits.

Alaska Fan
2012-01-04, 12:08 PM
Interesting that The Resistance seems to have done exactly what Tarquin claims to plan to do at the Gate.

Technical D&D question for the knowledgable: does Xykon's epic Cloister spell prevent Divination inside the zone of the spell?

Ailurus
2012-01-04, 12:08 PM
I foresee a speak with dead spell in the near future. Possibly several to help mitigate any vagueness.

Probably will happen, but Xykon's own paranoia will come back to bite him then. The cloister affects the resistance as well as the inhabitants of the city, so divining for them won't do anything. And we know the phylactory has a ton of anti-divination spells on it as well. So, the only information gained will be that the phylactory is now in the hands of a bunch of people who hate Xykon, rather than being in the sewer. Granted, it may well inspire Xykon to take a personal hand in hunting for it now, but there's also the possibility that the elves will just run clear of the cloister and teleport out themselves.

t209
2012-01-04, 12:09 PM
I thought the next strip will be like Skyrim intro (Nomad warriors and a khan carted off to the rift for execution until Resistance came to save them).

Firemage
2012-01-04, 12:15 PM
Wow -- the good guys pull a "I don't have to collect up all the quest items -- I just have to take you out when you find it(in some stories the villian finds ONE and then waits while the hero gets all the rest)"



With the difference, that the villains usually don't kill while doing so.
The paladins good guys have apparently read the Evil Overlord List. :smallamused:


edit: most of the resistance aren't paladins... Do they only have one? Are there more?

Ellen
2012-01-04, 12:16 PM
It may be because i'm not English, but i didn't quite get the last two panels..

There's a saying that something easy is "easy as taking candy from a baby." I'm not quite sure where the saying comes from since babies tend to scream at the top of their lungs if you take something like that away from them and the noise pain may make you want to hand it back, but that's the saying.

The old man either thinks that the phrase is wrong or that it should be made more fantasy adventure specific by changing "baby" to "doombaby."

The guard gets back by calling him a "stick in the mud," a sort of uptight person who is ruining the fun. Only, of course, she decides to add a few fantasy cliches to the phrase before he can order who to do it.

bhtooefr
2012-01-04, 12:20 PM
The old man is a paladin. Taking candy from a baby is theft, and goes against everything a paladin stands for. Taking apocalypse candy from a doombaby, though, would be saving the world, which falls into something a paladin can support.

t209
2012-01-04, 12:23 PM
The old man is a paladin. Taking candy from a baby is theft, and goes against everything a paladin stands for. Taking apocalypse candy from a doombaby, though, would be saving the world, which falls into something a paladin can support.

I though he wanted Niu to call it "Doom Candy" because it will be used to do something with Rift.
P.S- So, did Thanh told the resistance about his secret order since it is nearly extinct?

Vectner
2012-01-04, 12:24 PM
Is it wrong that I feel bad for the hobgoblins? They were just doing their jobs and they were having such a good day.

Khaethrag
2012-01-04, 12:24 PM
Just for funsies, what would happen if somebody tossed the phylactery into the Snarl and then Xykon bit the big one?

Mordaenor
2012-01-04, 12:25 PM
Well, that was unexpected. Here I thought Team Evil was finally going to make some headway.

Peelee
2012-01-04, 12:26 PM
There's a saying that something easy is "easy as taking candy from a baby." I'm not quite sure where the saying comes from since babies tend to scream at the top of their lungs if you take something like that away from them and the noise pain may make you want to hand it back, but that's the saying.

The old man either thinks that the phrase is wrong or that it should be made more fantasy adventure specific by changing "baby" to "doombaby."

The guard gets back by calling him a "stick in the mud," a sort of uptight person who is ruining the fun. Only, of course, she decides to add a few fantasy cliches to the phrase before he can order who to do it.

The "old man" is a paladin. Who looks down on evil things, such as taking (theft!) candy from a baby (an innocent!).

So it was taking apocalypse candy from a doombaby, which is obviously a good thing - doombabies having apocalypse candy is surely a bad thing - not an evil thing, and thus not objectionable by the paladin. It was a morality objection, not a "that's not fantasy enough!" objection.

He's called a sacred stick in the mud not because it's fantasy but because, again, he's a paladin. And no examples or metaphors will be given for that because I ain't going anywhere near the "no real-world religion talkey" rule.

Mantine
2012-01-04, 12:27 PM
Oh, thank god. Finally some accomplishment from the good guy's side that doesn't get instantly downsized by some other random/casual/plothax device (I'm looking at you, plane shift).

Awesome!

CelestialMagpie
2012-01-04, 12:27 PM
There's a saying that something easy is "easy as taking candy from a baby." I'm not quite sure where the saying comes from since babies tend to scream at the top of their lungs if you take something like that away from them and the noise pain may make you want to hand it back, but that's the saying.

The old man either thinks that the phrase is wrong or that it should be made more fantasy adventure specific by changing "baby" to "doombaby."

The guard gets back by calling him a "stick in the mud," a sort of uptight person who is ruining the fun. Only, of course, she decides to add a few fantasy cliches to the phrase before he can order who to do it.



Actually, it's because a baby has no defenses - thus taking the candy is really easy. "Like taking candy from a baby" is saying that an act was stupidly easy.

I am happy that the resistance is making an appearance/doing useful stuff. I had forgotten about how I was rooting for them way, way back when they were first introduced. Good for them! But I feel bad for the horrible way Xykon is probably going to kill them :smallsigh:

SlyJohnny
2012-01-04, 12:28 PM
The old man either thinks that the phrase is wrong or that it should be made more fantasy adventure specific by changing "baby" to "doombaby."

I took it more as Thahn having moral objections to taking candy from babies, and is dialling the "Firmly Lawful Good paladin with a stick up his ass" schtick up to 11, by demanding that the rogue censure her language to create a more morally acceptable catchphrase, even though the new catchphrase is contrived and silly.

I found it funny, mostly because of how readily Thahn joins in laughing, just as soon as his ethical requirements for jeering over a defeated enemy are met.

I'm not sure where this is gonna go. I do know that I don't trust the damn elves one bit. And I'm not sure I feel good about the fact they've rolled in and effectively taken over tactical command of the resistance, and that the only person with authority to stand up to them is a dense pleb like Thahn.

I mean, yeah, they're powerful and effective, and they're definitely Team Not-Xykon, but even as good guys they're only going to do whatever's best for them and their homeland. Not necessarily whatever is best for the OOTS, the Azurites, or the non-elven world at large.

They might determine that destroying the phylactery is in their best interests, or they might not. Elven Command might have it's own agenda entirely.

One Skunk Todd
2012-01-04, 12:31 PM
:smallsigh:

please please please Xykon, teleport in and wipe 'em all.

I'm not rooting for this but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's exactly what happens.

Also, is the pink haired elf both casting and using a sword and shield?

Oh and I just noticed. Not only did the Resistance not take a single casualty, it looks like they didn't take a single wound. No XP for them. :)

Cranica
2012-01-04, 12:32 PM
Interesting that The Resistance seems to have done exactly what Tarquin claims to plan to do at the Gate.

Technical D&D question for the knowledgable: does Xykon's epic Cloister spell prevent Divination inside the zone of the spell?

Cloister is an original spell for the comic, so far as I know, but the rules behind it have been explained in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html). The answer is yes, you can cast divinations within the spell's effect, but there are several low-level spells that prevent scrying that are probably available to the Resistance.

Agnostik
2012-01-04, 12:39 PM
It's the third page of discussion, time to ask silly questions about insignificant details.

I can't figure out what kind of sword the dark-skinned elf is using in his main hand. It's not a scimitar because it isn't curved, it's probably not a longsword because Rich draws them differently (look at Nale's sword for example), and it's too thick to be a rapier even though it has a handguard. :confused:

deuxhero
2012-01-04, 12:41 PM
I'm going to guess Redcloak leaked it to stay in the city longer

Peelee
2012-01-04, 12:41 PM
I'm not rooting for this but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's exactly what happens.

Also, is the pink haired elf both casting and using a sword and shield?

Oh and I just noticed. Not only did the Resistance not take a single casualty, it looks like they didn't take a single wound. No XP for them. :)

Wait, you have to take damage to get XP now?

Candle Jack
2012-01-04, 12:41 PM
I see a flaw in this plan.

A flaw called "Speak with Dead".

One Skunk Todd
2012-01-04, 12:42 PM
It's the third page of discussion, time to ask silly questions about insignificant details.

I can't figure out what kind of sword the dark-skinned elf is using in his main hand. It's not a scimitar because it isn't curved, it's probably not a longsword because Rich draws them differently (look at Nale's sword for example), and it's too thick to be a rapier even though it has a handguard. :confused:

A main gauche maybe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger

Cranica
2012-01-04, 12:43 PM
Wait, you have to take damage to get XP now?

I think Skunk just means the Resistance must dramatically outlevel them to win so easily.

Agnostik
2012-01-04, 12:44 PM
A main gauche maybe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_daggerHmm, but it is usually employed in the off-hand, so that would only work if he's a leftie and the shortsword in the other hand is the main-hand weapon.

Or it could just be an elven-style longsword or something. :smallsmile:

One Skunk Todd
2012-01-04, 12:47 PM
Wait, you have to take damage to get XP now?

I was thinking the Resistance fighters were experienced enough so as not to get any XP fighting the low level hobbos.

Fish
2012-01-04, 12:47 PM
If they can't destroy the phylactery they can always
...hide it again. That'd keep the hobbos occupied. I strongly suspect that's what they've been doing. It would certainly explain how the resistance knew it was discovered; hide the bauble and camp the hiding place. The resistance could thin out the occupation force a few at a time.

One Skunk Todd
2012-01-04, 12:49 PM
I think Skunk just means the Resistance must dramatically outlevel them to win so easily.

Exactly, thank you. :)

LudiDrizzt
2012-01-04, 12:56 PM
Perhaps the Elves have their own agenda regarding Xykon. By hiding his phylactery somewhere that would assure its destruction if left unattended, they could possibly channel him towards beneficial gains for themselves. Such as having him force the Goblins out of Azure City, or even sending him against the ever-growing Empire of Blood directly to the south of their mountains.

Surely the Elven lands are not merely coincidentally located just north of the newly-famed antagonist Tarquin.

B.I.T.T.
2012-01-04, 12:57 PM
Doombaby? That's hillarious.

Doombaby: Goo. Gaa. I will teeth upon your bones.

Paladin: *swipe* Yoinketh!

Doombaby: Noooo I will have my vengence. Waaaah.

Dracarot
2012-01-04, 12:59 PM
Apocalypse candy? Bah! There nothing compared to Ragnarock bars!

Anarion
2012-01-04, 01:04 PM
Hmm, but it is usually employed in the off-hand, so that would only work if he's a leftie and the shortsword in the other hand is the main-hand weapon.

Or it could just be an elven-style longsword or something. :smallsmile:

Just looking at the weapons available on the SRD, it probably follows the rules for longswords, even though the shape and handguard makes me want to call it a saber instead. My guess is the customized look implies that its a magical elven longsword, rather than a regular, run-of-the-mill longsword.

Ellen
2012-01-04, 01:05 PM
Just to say it -

While a Paladin may object to stealing from a baby, any decent nanny, babysitter, or parent knows all the reasons you might want to take something away from a baby that the baby is trying to eat (rots their teeth, potential choking hazard, where was this thing before the baby grabbed it and how many germs did it pick up? how close is it to meal time? and do you really want this baby on a sugar high?). :smallbiggrin:

Wrecan
2012-01-04, 01:06 PM
With all the goblins in the sewers and ocean looking for the phylactery, there aren't a lot of hobgoblins wandering around the city itself. The resistance is probably aware of when the shift changes occur and how many people are supposed to be guarding the palace or the prison, etc. So the resistance doesn't have to watch all the hobgoblins. It just needs to watch the city for hobgoblin teams who aren't where they are supposed to be.

Though I do like the idea of the Resistance finding the phylactery first and using it as bait to separate hobgoblin squads and kill them. I just don't find that likely. What they should do is simply have the white-haired Peregrine elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) teleport it out to Hinjo for safe-keeping.

Ninja Dragon
2012-01-04, 01:06 PM
Wow, really did not see that coming.

It seems Hinjo and Roy had this planned better than we thought. If the resistance manages to hide the phylactery far from Azure City, Xykon will keep looking for it forever, and will never go to Girard's Gate. Or maybe they could even find a way to destroy it...

On the other hand, this can't end so easily, so I espect the resistance to run into some trouble. Maybe they run into Xykon/Redcloack next chapter, or maybe the phylactery is recovered later, so Tarquin can shine for some more time.

It's time for team evil to show why they are the main villains of this comic.

EccentricFellow
2012-01-04, 01:07 PM
Oh good. Without this turn of events the search seemed to lack a certain amount of drama. Good to see the bad guys can get thorns in their side just as annoyingly as the good guys.

Cheers and Happy New Year everyone. :)

brionl
2012-01-04, 01:08 PM
Dang, now I want some Apocalypse Candy...

Nephrahim
2012-01-04, 01:09 PM
I'm going to guess Redcloak leaked it to stay in the city longer

I'd actually be pretty surprised if Redcloak doesn't WANT out of the city. The longer they stay, the more likely Xylon is to just burn it down. With a proper leader and everything, he must be ready to leave.

the_tick_rules
2012-01-04, 01:09 PM
poor xykon, more delays.

Dracarot
2012-01-04, 01:13 PM
Also, is the pink haired elf both casting and using a sword and shield?

There's a few possibilities here.

1. She's a dual class fighter/wizard (common among elves) and seeing as the spell gave no visible reaction the spell either a. failed (due to armor penalties) or b could be a buff spell.

2. She's a dual class fighter/cleric and that was some kind of divine buff spell.

3. There is a slim chance it is she's a druid as I recall Druids of Mielliki could wear metal armor (so long as a ranger can wear it) so it could again be a divine buff spell (it would also work with a fighter druid combo as mentioned above).

4. She could be a psychic warrior, and that "spell" was one of her psionic powers being called into action.

Any one of these theories could be true, though I'm leaning towards 2 and 4.

wzeller
2012-01-04, 01:13 PM
I see a flaw in this plan.

A flaw called "Speak with Dead".

I see a flaw in your flaw. All anybody will know is that the resistance wiped out a search party.

They might do this from time to time even without the phylactery being found, just to thin the herds, or they might not.

If they do, then there's nothing special-seeming about the event and nobody would bother to Speak With Dead.

If they don't, then it may raise some suspicion. But the search party was pretty big, and it's very possible (probable?) that the conversation they were having about rewards started immediately upon finding it, before the rest of group was told they could stop searching because it had been found. So you've got a large group of hobs, most of which know nothing about why they were attacked, and there's no clue pointing to which of them might have that information. So you Speak With Dead and get, "I dunno! They just came out of nowhere and killed us all for no apparent reason!" And you cast it again and get, "I was swimming under the water and all of a sudden there was sword in my back!" and you cast it again and get, "Huh?"

Or it could go the other way. Maybe the whole group had already been told it was found and by who. Then a single Speak With Dead solves the mystery.

But the point is that Rich can take it either way, both with completely sound logic behind his decision.

Speak With Dead is only a problem for Team-Not-Xykon if Rich wants it to be. If it isn't a problem, then people will be complaining about it. But on the other hand, if somebody comes in and Speaks With Dead in the next comic then there will be lots of people in this forum throwing around the terms "Diabolus Ex Machina" and "Deus ex Machina" even though they don't know what those words mean.

Either way, people will be pointlessly irritated by what they perceive as a flaw in the comic but which is really just a flaw in their brain.

Moblin
2012-01-04, 01:14 PM
If the resistance do get away with this theft, I doubt they'll be keeping the phylactry for long - The Elves are unlikely to see the caves beneath Azure city as somewhere it can be kept safe from Xykon, and for the Azurites it's a dangerous object that might draw Xykon down upon their base (which he might even know the location of all along, in his 'don't confuse not caring for not knowing' style). I can see the Phylacatry making a journey toward Elven lands if Xykon doesn't re-take it very quickly indeed, which might lead to Xykon following it rather then making an immediate grab for Girard's gate himself.

Mind you, that's still an 'if' at this stage. For all we know, Xykon might just teleport in to grab it at the next update.

One Skunk Todd
2012-01-04, 01:15 PM
There's a few possibilities here.

1. She's a dual class wizard fighter/wizard (common among elves) and seeing as the spell gave no visible reaction the spell either a. failed (due to armor penalties) or b could be a buff spell.

2. She's a dual class fighter/cleric and that was some kind of divine buff spell.

3. There is a slim chance it is she's a druid as I recall Druids of Mielliki could wear metal armor (so long as a ranger can wear it) so it could again be a divine buff spell (it would also work with a fighter druid combo as mentioned above).

4. She could be a psychic warrior, and that "spell" was one of her psionic powers being called into action.

Any one of these theories could be true, though I'm leaning towards 2 and 4.

Thanks, I'm just barely familiar enough with the rules to realize it was slightly out of the mainstream, but not familiar enough to know what all the possibilities were.

Kish
2012-01-04, 01:16 PM
Just to say it -

While a Paladin may object to stealing from a baby, any decent nanny, babysitter, or parent knows all the reasons you might want to take something away from a baby that the baby is trying to eat (rots their teeth, potential choking hazard, where was this thing before the baby grabbed it and how many germs did it pick up? how close is it to meal time? and do you really want this baby on a sugar high?). :smallbiggrin:
At which point, Thanh's objection to the analogy becomes, "We did not grab the phylactery for the benefit of the hobgoblins we took it from!"

rewinn
2012-01-04, 01:18 PM
The Resistence should drop the ring of power phylactery into the volcano Rift, unless they suspect that ....
... Xykon's waiting at the Rift, probably invisible, to catch whoever does just that!

Peelee
2012-01-04, 01:19 PM
I think Skunk just means the Resistance must dramatically outlevel them to win so easily.

I was thinking the Resistance fighters were experienced enough so as not to get any XP fighting the low level hobbos.

Aha. Though it could be argued that the hobbos had just finished with their generic sewer-dungeon, since they still have visible damage on pretty much everyone but the cleric. I take the point, though.



I see a flaw in this plan.

A flaw called "Speak with Dead".

Hasn't the resistance been waging guerilla warfare like this for months? Unless casting Speak with Dead is standard operating procedure, there's not much reason to believe they would cast it in this instance either. And if it IS SOP, there are likely very specific questions they ask every time, so the likelihood they would ask anything phylactery-related is pretty low, I'd imagine. Not nonexistant, just low.

brionl
2012-01-04, 01:20 PM
I'm not rooting for this but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that's exactly what happens.

Also, is the pink haired elf both casting and using a sword and shield?

Oh and I just noticed. Not only did the Resistance not take a single casualty, it looks like they didn't take a single wound. No XP for them. :)

The CR of the hobgoblins is too low. They're probably only getting roleplaying XP and story bonus XP. :smallbiggrin:

SamBurke
2012-01-04, 01:21 PM
"Holy stick in the mud"

O CHUL RULES THE WORLD!

Kish
2012-01-04, 01:21 PM
There's a few possibilities here.

1. She's a dual class fighter/wizard (common among elves) and seeing as the spell gave no visible reaction the spell either a. failed (due to armor penalties) or b could be a buff spell.

2. She's a dual class fighter/cleric and that was some kind of divine buff spell.

3. There is a slim chance it is she's a druid as I recall Druids of Mielliki could wear metal armor (so long as a ranger can wear it) so it could again be a divine buff spell (it would also work with a fighter druid combo as mentioned above).

4. She could be a psychic warrior, and that "spell" was one of her psionic powers being called into action.

Any one of these theories could be true, though I'm leaning towards 2 and 4.
5. She's a single-classed cleric; as an elf she is automatically proficient in long swords, rapiers, and long and short bows (which pushes elves toward classes that don't get proficiency in martial weapons as a class feature, such as wizard, sorcerer, and cleric).

Also, while casting Speak With Dead on random wiped-out patrols is unlikely, casting Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell on them is much more likely to be standard operating procedure, resulting in a bunch of wights who remember the phylactery being stolen from them when they were hobgoblins.

13arrage
2012-01-04, 01:24 PM
A main gauche maybe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger




I assumed that the wood elf was wielding an elven thinblade and elven lightblade, both from races of the wild.

resound
2012-01-04, 01:26 PM
Is there an actual creature in AD&D called a Doombaby? :mitd: ???

Draconi Redfir
2012-01-04, 01:31 PM
edit: most of the resistance aren't paladins... Do they only have one? Are there more?

The only known palidans that survived that war are

Hinjo: At new Azure City

Lien: Heading for Dwarven Lands

O-chul: Heading for Dwarven Lands

And Thahn: Resistance leader.


The first two survived by fleeing with the fleet, the second survived by being held prisioner for about a year. Thahn survived because he wasn't even in the city when the war started, he was a glorified messenger on a mission to Nowhere.

As far as i know the first three are unaware of Thahn, and i think Thahn is only aware Hinjo escaped.


Is it wrong that I feel bad for the hobgoblins? They were just doing their jobs and they were having such a good day.

No it is not wrong, all the goblinoids of the playground share your feelings.


There's a few possibilities here.

1. She's a dual class fighter/wizard (common among elves) and seeing as the spell gave no visible reaction the spell either a. failed (due to armor penalties) or b could be a buff spell.

2. She's a dual class fighter/cleric and that was some kind of divine buff spell.

3. There is a slim chance it is she's a druid as I recall Druids of Mielliki could wear metal armor (so long as a ranger can wear it) so it could again be a divine buff spell (it would also work with a fighter druid combo as mentioned above).

4. She could be a psychic warrior, and that "spell" was one of her psionic powers being called into action.

Any one of these theories could be true, though I'm leaning towards 2 and 4.

Or a ranger, they can cast spells.

Psyren
2012-01-04, 01:33 PM
Xykon got b-owned. :smallbiggrin:

HandofShadows
2012-01-04, 01:34 PM
Well, THAT was unexpected. And in a very good way. :smallbiggrin:

wzeller
2012-01-04, 01:34 PM
If I were running the resistance, I'd have a standing protocol in place to deal with taking possession of the phylactery:

A) If you find the phylactery in your hands, waste no time. Go immediately to the nearest resistance member who can cast spells from the Summoning school and hand to them. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 gold pieces. Just find a caster and deliver it with all possible haste.

B) If you are an arcane caster with access to Summoning, you are required to keep a Teleport spell memorized at all times and to never use it unless this protocol has been activated. Memorize it multiple times if you want to be able to cast it at other times, but keep one on reserve at all times. If you have the required feat, this reserve Teleport spell must be memorized in its quickened form. If somebody runs up to you with the phylactery, you don't waste time asking who they are or how they got it. You just take it and immediately Teleport yourself to the edge of the Snarl and throw it in.

C) It's Miller time!


Of course, I doubt that's what will happen. Instead the elves will probably have a reason to keep it around. I'm guessing that they'll prefer to hide it until Xykon can be killed so that they can destroy it then and be rid of him forever. But having the phylactery won't make it any easier to kill him. And whenever you do kill him, if the phylactery is already destroyed, then you're all done.

(Perhaps he can make another, but if you hang onto it then it's just a matter of time before he takes it back anyway.)

Here's hoping for a Snarl-bound teleport. (Of course, it would also be quite interesting if throwing it into the Snarl and then destroying Xykon simply causes him to regenerate on that other world we saw in there. Then he'd have the resources of a whole other planet to draw upon and might become an even bigger threat than he already is, by orders of magnitude. That'd be awesome.)

w

The Mad Hatter
2012-01-04, 01:36 PM
Attack Of The Doombabies

Kish
2012-01-04, 01:41 PM
Or a ranger, they can cast spells.
There's no good reason for a ranger to be using a melee weapon and shield, however.

PhantomFox
2012-01-04, 01:42 PM
Okay, so we're not going to Xykon 'porting to the desert just yet, so is this just a status update do you think, or is this a new mini-arc?

ref
2012-01-04, 01:46 PM
Nice call out to Shelby!

The Pink Ninja
2012-01-04, 01:47 PM
Meh, the elven resistance still leaves a bad taste in my mouth after their last appearance.

But it'd be moronic if the hobogoblins didn't use some sort of speak-with-dead or raise dead spell to check what happened to a patrol that got entirely wiped out. Redcloak is effcient, organised and genre savvy. No way he'd just shrug his shoulders.

Either the resistance has been hitting random patrols in which case the phalactory would have been better protected or they haven't in which case this really stands out.

wzeller
2012-01-04, 01:49 PM
The Resistence should drop the ring of power phylactery into the volcano Rift, unless they suspect that ....
... Xykon's waiting at the Rift, probably invisible, to catch whoever does just that!

Highly doubtful:
Look at the previous comic to see how big the Snarl has become. There's no way in the world that Xykon could cover that much space in a single turn, even if he was waiting right at the middle of it. Not even with ranged attack spells. And he'd have no way of knowing where somebody might teleport in.

If somebody teleports to the rift and, on their very next action, throws the phylactery in, there's nothing Xykon could possibly do to prevent it.

w

Great Dane
2012-01-04, 01:49 PM
Something else to consider -- there are fifteen hobgoblins in 823, Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html) but only fourteen dead goblins in 824, Panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html). Did the poor fella grabbed by the big sewer ugly bite the big one? Or, as someone suggested, do we have an invisible survivor panicking right now?

One Skunk Todd
2012-01-04, 01:54 PM
Attack Of The Doombabies

Well, since my doombaby left me,
I found a new place to dwell,
It's down at the end of the Lower Planes,
At catastrophe hotel

Whiffet
2012-01-04, 02:01 PM
As far as i know the first three are unaware of Thahn, and i think Thahn is only aware Hinjo escaped.

No, Hinjo, Lien, and O-Chul have known about Thahn for a while. They know from Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). I guess it's possible Lien doesn't know since we don't actually see her, but I doubt it. And if you want something more specific than "our comrade" there's still the fifth panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html). Presumably, if there's communication, Thahn knows Hinjo isn't the only one.

Ninja Dragon
2012-01-04, 02:04 PM
If I were in the resistance, I wouldn't try to throw the phylactery in the rift. I'd think it would be too risky. Instead, I would get away from the city as fast as I could, and hide it where Xykon would never find. Maybe there is even a way to destroy it besides throwing it at the rift.

If that's what the resistance is planning to do, Xykon had better act fast. Or team evil will be out of the game as soon as book 5.

SoC175
2012-01-04, 02:05 PM
So...is the comic going to be over in the next few strips?:smallconfused: The good guys have the phylactery, know what it is, and the villains don't know they have. Even given all the protections on it, I think if they spent enough time they could destroy it.Since they have wizard capable of teleporting: get out of the cloister and bring it to the elven lands. There should be some high mage capable of destroying it.

Yet I still wonder how they knew, they can't use magic to find it and there are certainly way too many goblins searching to monitor them all.

The SRD is not clear whether destroying the phylactery kills the lich outright, but at least in the source myth, it did. Heck, it was even the only way to bring Koschey down.However other D&D books are and Start of Darkness was as well

Kish
2012-01-04, 02:13 PM
Since the phylactery holds the lich's soul,
No. Not in OotS, which is what matters. Xykon's skeleton holds his soul until it is destroyed, at which point his soul goes to his phylactery.

And, again, there is no such ambiguity in OotS. Destroying the phylactery would not destroy Xykon.

skaddix
2012-01-04, 02:16 PM
So Xykon can make a new one as soon as this one gets destroyed provided his body is in tack. I have no doubt he can do it. He seems to have all sorts of crafted items not to mention he spends 8 Hours a day crafting.

The Pilgrim
2012-01-04, 02:20 PM
Elf Leader: "They won't be able to report back who stole the Lich's phylactery".

Three simple words: Speak-With-Dead*

If they really wanted to remain unknown, they should at least have burnt the corpses.

Well, the Resistance has really screwed up here. They have given Xykon (who didn't give a damn about the Resistance and was about to leave the City) a reason to, not only stay in Azure City, but actively go to hunt down every last of them.


*(I'd link to the early OOTS strip in which Xykon tells Redcloack to use it so a dead Goblin could tell him where he left his keys, but I'm too lazy to search)

Kancsar
2012-01-04, 02:22 PM
Apocalypse candy? Bah! There nothing compared to Ragnarock bars!

or ragnarockyroad.

Vemynal
2012-01-04, 02:25 PM
I love the last line in this comic lol

Math_Mage
2012-01-04, 02:26 PM
The dead hobgoblins will go to Tsukiko, just like the prison guards from before. Coin toss whether they retain their memory well enough to spill the beans.

Gray Mage
2012-01-04, 02:28 PM
So Xykon can make a new one as soon as this one gets destroyed provided his body is in tack. I have no doubt he can do it. He seems to have all sorts of crafted items not to mention he spends 8 Hours a day crafting.

This, however, is ambiguous. Some books/sources imply that this is possible while others say that you can only make one, period, so it could go either way.

I'd guess the later is the case, considering Xykon's reaction to losing it.

Kancsar
2012-01-04, 02:29 PM
I'm going to guess Redcloak leaked it to stay in the city longer

Redcloak could have tipped off the resistance to regain the phylactery and with it some leverage over Xykon, but how would Redcloak had known it had been found? shouldn't all of the cleric have been instructed to 'send' as soon as it had been found (and then Black Squadron could have teleported in to collect it)? or did Redcloak receive such a send off-panel, and then send to his agents in the resistance?

in any case, perhaps we should now count the Elven High Command as one of the nine factions - we know the Elven Gods know about the gates (SoD?), so there could be a lot more going on here.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-04, 02:30 PM
There's no good reason for a ranger to be using a melee weapon and shield, however.Plus rangers don't get Sending or Fog Cloud/Obscuring Mist, which s/he cast in earlier strips.

eusticepious
2012-01-04, 02:34 PM
Maybe we will get some insight into what is going on in Gobbotopia / answers to questions like:

(1) Are the 12 gods still present /active in the city / engaging the dark one (panel 4) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)?

(2) How were O-Chul and V saved from Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)?

(3) Is the IFCC still plotting to get Xykon out of his comfort zone (panel 9, 10) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)?

(4) What is Xykon's errand? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Was it only a trip to the oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)?

(5) What has been the effect of Hinjo's coordination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html)?

Barazon
2012-01-04, 02:37 PM
HOW DID THEY KNOW!?!??!
:smalleek:

Maybe we'll find out in ...


<DRAMATIC PAUSE>


the next comic?! *Dunh dunh DUNH!*


PS: The Giant raised me right, I just had to say it.

Mammoth
2012-01-04, 02:45 PM
So Xykon can make a new one as soon as this one gets destroyed provided his body is in tack. I have no doubt he can do it. He seems to have all sorts of crafted items not to mention he spends 8 Hours a day crafting.

I'm guessing this is the key to both Team Evil and the Resistance's plans. It makes sense that only one phylactery can exist at a time otherwise Xykon would already have several back-ups. There doesn't seem to be any clear info on whether Xykon can make another if the original is destroyed; like others I'm inclined to think he could but it would take considerable time and effort. In either case as long as the original is intact and not in his possession he's as close to "mortal" as he's been in some time. As long as the Resistance doesn't have firm knowledge that Xykon can't make another phylactery (in which case they would certainly attempt to destroy it) I would expect them to safeguard it until Xykon is destroyed and they can end his threat forever. To which I say: Good luck with that.

Timeless Error
2012-01-04, 02:53 PM
Wow, I didn't see that happening. Caught me totally by surprise. This is going to get interesting very quickly now.

Peelee
2012-01-04, 02:57 PM
Mind you, that's still an 'if' at this stage. For all we know, Xykon might just teleport in to grab it at the next update.

What they should do is simply have the white-haired Peregrine elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) teleport it out to Hinjo for safe-keeping.


Here's hoping for a Snarl-bound teleport.

shouldn't all of the cleric have been instructed to 'send' as soon as it had been found (and then Black Squadron could have teleported in to collect it)?

...OK, has the Cloister spell changed that I am unaware of? There seem to be a lot of people (more than I quoted) that seem to think you can teleport while under its effects now. Last I knew, you had to get out of the cloistered area, and still wait long enough for the spell to wear off, since it affects people as well as the area.

Randomguy
2012-01-04, 02:58 PM
What a tweest!

Whoo hoo! Three-way battle for the gates averted! I hope the resistance knows what they're doing, though. It would be a shame for them all to be horribly, horribly slaughtered.

JSSheridan
2012-01-04, 03:01 PM
Thanks Giant!

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-04, 03:02 PM
...OK, has the Cloister spell changed that I am unaware of? There seem to be a lot of people (more than I quoted) that seem to think you can teleport while under its effects now. Last I knew, you had to get out of the cloistered area, and still wait long enough for the spell to wear off, since it affects people as well as the area."You could cast them within the area, or even inside the field to outside..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

The fourth post you quoted even references an example of such a thing happening (Black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html) Squadron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html)).

Peelee
2012-01-04, 03:08 PM
"You could cast them within the area, or even inside the field to outside..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

The fourth post you quoted even references an example of such a thing happening (Black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html) Squadron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html)).

Thanks. I was wondering why it was such a strong theory among so many people, while I thought it wasn't possible. I should really do my own investigations and research, but the whole "screw it, I'm being lazy at work, might as well be lazy on here as well" mentality kind of set in.

fishboy
2012-01-04, 03:10 PM
[QUOTE=Agnostik;12474553]It's the third page of discussion, time to ask silly questions about insignificant details.

I can't figure out what kind of sword the dark-skinned elf is using in his main hand. QUOTE]

I would call that a broadsword (basket-hilted sword) Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword)

Wrecan
2012-01-04, 03:16 PM
Why do I have the nasty suspicion that the elves' racism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) will come back to bite them?
If they hate goblins of all breeds equally, they are being speciesist, not racist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html). :smallsmile:

Mordae
2012-01-04, 03:29 PM
Are we being premature in assuming this is a brief catch-up visit with Team Evil before getting on with the Battle of Girard's Gate/Windy Canyon, occurring synchronously with the last few events of the Linear Guild Ambush arc? Xykon's minions have been searching for the phylactery since the Order headed to the western continent (i.e., a number of weeks), so this might just be the beginning of a new plot arc titled "How Xykon Got His GroovePhylactery Back"...

Cranica
2012-01-04, 03:34 PM
I could live with that. Xykon is always entertaining when he gets some free time, and I could do with seeing him kick some ass again.

Juggling Goth
2012-01-04, 03:44 PM
Good to see Thanh and Niu are still kicking ass.

Voice of Reason
2012-01-04, 03:45 PM
Competent protagonists? In this story!? I can't believe what the world has come to :smallamused:

Kish
2012-01-04, 03:46 PM
You mean competent minor characters who are vaguely on the same side as the protagonists?

MReav
2012-01-04, 03:47 PM
So... my prediction when Xykon finds out?

Xykon starts massacring Azurites and says he'll stop when they give it back. He won't, but the Resistance probably knows this.

Almaseti
2012-01-04, 03:48 PM
The way the elf phrased it makes it sound like he thought Xykon knew it had been found. Which makes me think some kind of signal had been made, which would be how the elves and co found it.

Anyhow, I'm curious to see how much longer the Resistance/ACU lasts if Xykon takes an active interest in hunting them down.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and say that letting the ACU get the phylactery means that the hobbos that found it are not getting any kind of good reward.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-04, 03:55 PM
The way the elf phrased it makes it sound like he thought Xykon knew it had been found. Which makes me think some kind of signal had been made, which would be how the elves and co found it.I doubt Xykon knows about it, or is even in anyway part of the alarm system they have set up. If Xykon knew, he'd probably have teleported in a round within finding out.

The line does indicate that someone at the Tower (likely both Redcloak and Jirix) might know, though. (BTW, the fact that Tower is capitalized makes me think Xykon's tower has a full, official name...Xykon's Tower, perhaps?)

Haldir
2012-01-04, 03:56 PM
I normally don't contribute to these discussions, and I know Rich rarely reads them, but I thought it necessary to express how happy I am with that twist. Totally clever and unexpected for the heroes to get a solid advantage for once.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-01-04, 04:16 PM
HA! Didn't see it coming, and it was fantastic. Rich, well played.

Aaron
2012-01-04, 04:38 PM
Well, I didn't see that coming. But in retrospect, it shouldn't be THAT surprising, given that the Resistance has been on the look out for when the phylactery is found. I like the goblin mention of Azure City Underground

GO AZURE CITY! :smallbiggrin:

Err I mean, GO AZURE CITY UNDERGROUND! :smallbiggrin:
Or is it Resistance? :smalltongue:

NoobForHire
2012-01-04, 04:46 PM
Hmm... Just realized something. If Xykon has been planning on teleporting out two rounds after they find the phylactery (662), doesn't that imply that he hasn't been renewing the Cloister spell? 'cause if he has been, he would have a hard time teleporting.

Kish
2012-01-04, 04:49 PM
Hmm... Just realized something. If Xykon has been planning on teleporting out two rounds after they find the phylactery (662), doesn't that imply that he hasn't been renewing the Cloister spell? 'cause if he has been, he would have a hard time teleporting.
Why would he? The Cloister doesn't stop people teleporting out, just in.

toughluck
2012-01-04, 04:58 PM
Yes! I never saw that coming and it's an INCREDIBLE plot twist. Congratulations, Rich!


Since the phylactery holds the lich's soul, there is no way Xykon will be able to make a new one.
Now, it does not. If Xykon's form is destroyed, then the phylactery will hold his soul. However:


The SRD is not clear whether destroying the phylactery kills the lich outright, but at least in the source myth, it did. Heck, it was even the only way to bring Koschey down.
The SRD doesn't matter in this regard, Rich's words do:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html
O'Chul assumed destroying the phylactery would destroy Xykon. And, who knows, this might just be true and we are looking into a deus ex machina to get rid of the most annoying, albeit awesome, villain in the comic.
Although this would invalidate the Oracle's prediction, since Xykon wouldn't be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate, so I assume he's not going to be destroyed.

One thing does make me wonder, though: Would Xykon feel if the phylactery was destroyed? If not, wouldn't he just assume it's still somewhere in the sewers, and go for broke -- after all, at worst, he'd just regenerate somewhere in, under or around Gobbotopia? He doesn't need oxygen to breathe, and he can teleport where he feels like if need be.

skaddix
2012-01-04, 05:00 PM
Good Question.

Quick Comment. I just level of diversity in this comic. Its hard getting fantasy or science fiction with good diversity. All the humans tend to be white mostly white males. Not to mention alot of red head females. The only darkskinned elves also tend to be dark elves.

SpaceBadger
2012-01-04, 05:04 PM
Well, I certainly did not expect that :smallbiggrin:


Neither did the hobgoblins... :smalltongue:

NOBODY expects the Azure City Resistance! Among their diverse weapons are surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency, and almost fanatical devotion to killing hobgoblins!

Kish
2012-01-04, 05:06 PM
One thing does make me wonder, though: Would Xykon feel if the phylactery was destroyed? If not, wouldn't he just assume it's still somewhere in the sewers, and go for broke -- after all, at worst, he'd just regenerate somewhere in, under or around Gobbotopia? He doesn't need oxygen to breathe, and he can teleport where he feels like if need be.
If by this you mean, kill himself expecting to regenerate at the phylactery, Tsukiko suggested that immediately when it was first stolen and lost. Xykon's response was that he wasn't going to take the risk of regenerating in a sea monster's stomach.

BungleBee
2012-01-04, 05:11 PM
WooHoo! Third eye for the bad guy!!!!

I love OOTS!

Surfing HalfOrc
2012-01-04, 05:17 PM
SOD Spoiler re: Xykon's Phylactery

Destroying the Phylactery won't kill Xykon, it's more like an "Extra Life" in a video game. He only has the one, but he can use it as many times as needed.

If someone destroys the phylactery, Xykon will still be able to fight as usual.
But if he dies, he dies.

SpaceBadger
2012-01-04, 05:18 PM
Y'know, with all of the other enchantments that Xykon and Redcloak put on that phylactery, making it hard to find and hard to destroy, I'd think they would have added some of those Symbols of Pain or something like that to zap anybody touching the thing, other than Redcloak or himself.

toughluck
2012-01-04, 05:22 PM
If by this you mean, kill himself expecting to regenerate at the phylactery, Tsukiko suggested that immediately when it was first stolen and lost. Xykon's response was that he wasn't going to take the risk of regenerating in a sea monster's stomach.
You're right, but Xykon is impatient. He might still decide to ignore the phylactery for the time being.

As for speak with the dead -- whether it's used depends on how often do the attacks by the Resistance happen -- if they happen often enough, and nobody ever remembers where they came from, casting the spell is simply pointless, they're just going to be reanimated as zombies.
As for whether they'd admit losing the phylactery -- well, Xykon would not be pleased, they would risk being tortured for losing the bling. I doubt they're filled in with regards to the overarching plot, so the only motivation they have to look for the phylactery is that they were forced to do so, that there might be a reward, but as for the core reason for searching for it in the first place is that the lich wants it, not that it's instrumental for goblinoid future.

Surfing HalfOrc
2012-01-04, 05:27 PM
If by this you mean, kill himself expecting to regenerate at the phylactery, Tsukiko suggested that immediately when it was first stolen and lost. Xykon's response was that he wasn't going to take the risk of regenerating in a sea monster's stomach.

I've always wondered "Why Not?" Xykon doesn't need to breathe, should be able to endure stomach acid long enough to blast his way out, and still doesn't need to breathe as he swims or walks back to Azure City/Goblitopia.

I was thinking he is immune to acid, but the SRD doesn't list acid immunity. Just cold, electricity, mind control and polymorph.

skaddix
2012-01-04, 05:27 PM
Its amazing how quickly the elves exerted control over the resistance.

silvadel
2012-01-04, 05:33 PM
If I were one of the elves there and I wanted to throw it into a rift -- I would choose a DIFFERENT rift -- like the one in the elven homelands....

cd4
2012-01-04, 05:35 PM
I can clear up one thing according to Xykon. From SOD He doesn't care too much if the phylactery is smashed as
"My soul isn't in there right now. Smashing it won't do anything to me." "That phlactery is just a fancy bauble unless you destroy me first."

But he does want to know exactly what has happened to it as the page hints that he can make another.

toughluck
2012-01-04, 05:53 PM
I can clear up one thing according to Xykon. From SOD He doesn't care too much if the phylactery is smashed as

But he does want to know exactly what has happened to it as the page hints that he can make another.

I just checked that, too. This should confirm he wouldn't know if the phylactery was destroyed. Which makes it slightly easier to destroy him at this point -- hopefully.

-Sentinel-
2012-01-04, 05:56 PM
I'm a big fan of Eyepatch Chick (first appearance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html)), and I love how Rich remembers even extras we saw only once before. I hope she gets a name someday.

I'm shipping her with That Guy With a Halberd. :smalltongue:

eusticepious
2012-01-04, 06:12 PM
I can clear up how the resistance knew about the phylactery: it has been clear for some time (panel 5) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html) that they have been surveillancing the Phylactery search and have some spies on the inside with Redcloak and the Goblins.

KyrtFurey
2012-01-04, 06:12 PM
Is it wrong that I feel bad for the hobgoblins? They were just doing their jobs and they were having such a good day.

I'm feeling the same way. But then, the whole resistance/elven liberation front angle isn't working for me.

Gnoman
2012-01-04, 06:31 PM
Y'know, with all of the other enchantments that Xykon and Redcloak put on that phylactery, making it hard to find and hard to destroy, I'd think they would have added some of those Symbols of Pain or something like that to zap anybody touching the thing, other than Redcloak or himself.

Then he would be very inconvienenced if, for example, a bird dropped it down the sewer, because he wouldn't be able to send his minions to find it (quite apart from laziness, it was a huge area that needed searched, so having just two people looking for it wold take forever.

More importantly, the search teams were reporting to Jirix rather than Redcloak. This makes me suspect that Redcloak and Xykon may have already left the city.

littlekKID
2012-01-04, 06:58 PM
Doombaby is mt new favorite word

Kish
2012-01-04, 07:30 PM
I've always wondered "Why Not?" Xykon doesn't need to breathe, should be able to endure stomach acid long enough to blast his way out,
Remember, when we saw him regenerate, he was first a skull, and was utterly helpless for quite a while before he regenerated a finger which he could use to insult Redcloak--and it was still a while after that before he was capable of blasting anything.

CoffeeIncluded
2012-01-04, 07:39 PM
Okay, okay, they just bought themselves some time. Good.

The MunchKING
2012-01-04, 07:42 PM
So...is the comic going to be over in the next few strips?:smallconfused: The good guys have the phylactery, know what it is, and the villains don't know they have. Even given all the protections on it, I think if they spent enough time they could destroy it.

The actual resistance is < Level 6, by and large aren't they? If even O'chull couldn't break it, I'm betting that all the defensive spells on it will keep the Resistance from breaking it.

russdm
2012-01-04, 07:57 PM
Yes. I loved the twist. I would like to point out that there are ways of removing magical protections. Antimagic field is a big one. Greater Dispel Magic. Also, for every spell and ability in the game there is a counter to it.

I expect the azure city underground to have spent some time planning what they would do if the got Xykon's Useless Bauble. It would have taken them a few tries before the bauble was found by the goblins and then taken out. That would enough time for the Underground to have come up with a plan.

SinsI
2012-01-04, 08:04 PM
I think Grey Wolf is right actually. The SRD is unclear about what happens when the phylactery goes down, but OoTS is not. Xykon survives his phylactery's destruction, it just puts him on his last life.

Of more interest is the fact that the SRD is unclear about whether or not you can make additional phylacteries. They're made with craft wondrous item, which Xykon probably has as a feat, so in theory nothing is preventing him from making another phylactery. Moreover, OoTS seems to have implied that the soul is NOT in the phylactery unless the main body is destroyed, so making a new one is simply making a proper receptacle, as opposed to trying to replace a destroyed soul fragment. So, I would guess that a phylactery in OoTS world can be replaced.
Libris Mortis is perfectly clear on that(p. 151):
A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one. If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed.

luc258
2012-01-04, 08:06 PM
Wasn't that pretty much Tarquin's plan with the OOTS done to Team Evil?
Wait till the gobbos get past all the nasty stuff and then take away the shiny.
Kind of extra funny, if you think about it. :D

Also, i reread strip 823, but I really can't see anything that implied that the resistance knew about the phylactery. I assumed after what blue cloak said, "How could they have found out about this so soon?", that it would be revealed lateron. Am i missing anything?

russdm
2012-01-04, 08:09 PM
Well, that also depends if Rich hasn't home-ruled that to allow Xykon to make another. If there's no homerule, then if the bauble goes boom, Xykon will eventually die.

I always assumed that phylacteries were only built once by a Lich and they couldn't make another. If they could, then no Liches would put such extensive protections around their phylacteries except to misled people if believing something was the phylactery when it wasn't.

What protections did Xykon put on his bauble anyway?

gathro
2012-01-04, 08:14 PM
Just wondering if anyone else thinks this could be bad for the Resistance-and for the goblins. The Resistance was merely a nuisance up until this point, but if Xykon finds out, he's going to come down on them. Hard. As Xykon has no purpose for Azure City anymore...well he may just burn the whole thing down.

The_Weirdo
2012-01-04, 08:27 PM
Meh, the elven resistance still leaves a bad taste in my mouth after their last appearance.

In mine they don't. The hobgoblins are oppressors of the Azurites, and, thus, must die. No exceptions. Were they not oppressing anyone, THEN I'd see it differently.

xyzchyx
2012-01-04, 08:31 PM
There should not be any hesitation here... they've killed the opposition, they should destroy the amulet immediately, and by any means necessary. If I might take a page from Elan's book for a moment, keeping it intact for any period longer than it takes to concentrate on destroying it only positively ensures, by virtue of dramatic storytelling, that Xykon will recover it. Of course, if the storyteller intends for Xykon to recover it, then that will happen anyways... but if they immediately concentrate their efforts on destroying it, it will not fall into Xykon's hand by their own errors, except to the extent that the storyteller may deliberately decide to have them commit such an error as a plot device.

Of course, I'll bet that nobody in that resistance group there is a bard... so this inescapable logic probably would just not occur to them.

Jimor
2012-01-04, 08:32 PM
On the top of the list who didn't see this coming, all the people who thought #823 was a waste of time. :smalltongue:

Rizzer
2012-01-04, 08:38 PM
Who is Shelby??

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-04, 08:44 PM
Who is Shelby??In bonus strip #194a,he 1-shotted an ancient silver dragon (aka Xykon's zombie dragon) who Xykon and Redcloak were failing to damage. Xykon then killed him because, after earning all that XP, he was too overqualified for the position of Random Mook. :smalltongue:

silversaraph
2012-01-04, 09:25 PM
I liked shelby..

WickedWizard17
2012-01-04, 09:30 PM
I thought it was "Sapphire Liberation Front."

YES! SCORE! HA! *does happy dance*

rewinn
2012-01-04, 09:38 PM
Highly doubtful:
Look at the previous comic to see how big the Snarl has become. There's no way in the world that Xykon could cover that much space in a single turn, even if he was waiting right at the middle of it. Not even with ranged attack spells. And he'd have no way of knowing where somebody might teleport in.

If somebody teleports to the rift and, on their very next action, throws the phylactery in, there's nothing Xykon could possibly do to prevent it.

w
And Xykon is too unintelligent to realize this is a threat to his continued existence?

OK, so maybe it's not just X himself protecting the rift. Maybe it is something much more sophisticated, like a flock of invisible flying zombies.

If NOTHING is in place to keep someone from flying into the rift with the Bauble ... after this was done once before already ... then BOTH Xykon and Redcloak have failed their Wisdom check.

Aquillion
2012-01-04, 10:00 PM
Given that there's no one in the comic who can stand up to Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest, it'll take some roguish sneakiness to keep the phylactery away from him.Not quite! The heroes who sealed the gates the first time around (at least, what we've seen of them) seem to be capable of doing it -- Soon more or less had Xykon and Redcloak up against the wall, and the others would have been just as experienced (if not moreso.) Lirian and Dorokan both had to be fought strategically, too.

Draketooth in particular might be able to stand up to Xykon in a fight, if he's still alive.

maxon
2012-01-04, 10:05 PM
Well, that was awesome but I'm really not sure that was a good idea on the part of the resistance. :smalleek:

Raistlin82
2012-01-04, 11:11 PM
OMG, they did it!

Elves are awesome! :smallbiggrin:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Cloister still active? If it is, and nobody was left alive to witness the capture of the locket... I really think that means that Xykon has no way to know they have it, or that the hobs had it in the first place!!

jnzsblzs
2012-01-04, 11:11 PM
What I have been thinking about for some time is the method to regain the possession of the phylactery mentioned by Tsukiko. THAT would be awesome:smalleek:

LordShotGun
2012-01-04, 11:23 PM
After that unexpected turn-around regarding the phylactery I almost expect a double turn-around what with xykon showing up and killing everyone.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-01-04, 11:51 PM
The actual resistance is < Level 6, by and large aren't they? If even O'chull couldn't break it, I'm betting that all the defensive spells on it will keep the Resistance from breaking it.

The Elves on the other hand are considerably higher level, in particular we know the wizard was capable of Teleporting the entire team to just outside of the Cloister effect so they could enter the city. Also, O'chul was a man in a big rush, his plan amounted to 'hope this thing is as fragile as it looks and maybe this pipe will break it'. The Elves and The Resistance have had time to consider the possibility of getting their hands on it, and if they can get back to their home base they've probably got a few hours before any serious search effort goes into effect to recapture the phylactery. Time enough they could bust the phylactery if they have a plan. I'd say they pose a very real threat to the phylactery if Xykon doesn't catch them quick.


Also, i reread strip 823, but I really can't see anything that implied that the resistance knew about the phylactery. I assumed after what blue cloak said, "How could they have found out about this so soon?", that it would be revealed lateron. Am i missing anything?

You are missing two things: First, that it was referenced earlier that the resistance knew the goblins were looking for the phylactery. It stands to reason they might have been watching for it to be found.
Second, that the question might be answered in the next few comics. Not every event ever is foreshadowed, some are total surprises that only are explained after they occur.

Rizzer
2012-01-05, 12:13 AM
In bonus strip #194a,he 1-shotted an ancient silver dragon (aka Xykon's zombie dragon) who Xykon and Redcloak were failing to damage. Xykon then killed him because, after earning all that XP, he was too overqualified for the position of Random Mook. :smalltongue:

Ah, I see. "bonus strip", that means in the printed books only, right? lol nice touch giant, now I'm going to have to go and make the purchase ;p

Wanderer
2012-01-05, 12:21 AM
An inversion of the typical Macguffin Delivery Service (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffinDeliveryService) trick. Of course, this means most of the Underground will probably end up being brutally slaughtered when Xykon finally does track it down, but for the moment: hurray for the good guys!

Zolem
2012-01-05, 01:48 AM
They could, but they might just regard this as another attack from the resistance. Then again, they might cast speak with dead on EVERY group attacked in the city, just to gather intel. I guess it depends on how regular these attacks are. And I just said the word "attack" in every sentence. Attack.

My thoughts exactly.

Xikon: "So they were killed huh? Any of their dead bodies put into humorous poses? No? Then why are you telling me this instead of combing the sewer for that amulet!?"

jidasfire
2012-01-05, 02:17 AM
Surprised I'm the first one to suggest this, but the Resistance's immediate presence at this scene makes it highly suspect that this is Xykon's actual phylactery. I think it's possible that the resistance, having a generally good idea what said phylactery looks like from the various pooling of information between Hinjo, O-Chul, and themselves, may have made duplicates to use as bait to trap and kill large groups of hobgoblins.

Garwain
2012-01-05, 02:42 AM
Just fling it in the rift. It's right above their heads and big enough not to miss.

Ghostwheel
2012-01-05, 02:49 AM
Ahhh, the plot thickens.

Why do I have the nasty suspicion that the elves' racism (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) will come back to bite them?

This should be interesting. I'll lay odds that, after all this time, the resistance is at least partially infiltrated by Redcloak's spies. Humans paid off, possibly, or under the effect of Dominate Person.

Another possibility would be if one of the hobgoblins survived the massacre via Invisibility, and survives to tell the tale.

Which means it probably won't be long before Xykon becomes aware of the phylactery, and shows up to reclaim it.

Given that there's no one in the comic who can stand up to Xykon in a toe-to-toe slugfest, it'll take some roguish sneakiness to keep the phylactery away from him.

Nicely done!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I am not going to disagree with you, and I am not going to read all ten pages of responses before I reply. So forgive me if I reiterate something that was already mentioned in this thread. So here goes:

THESE ARE ELVES!

They are the elves that an Elvish Kingdom sent to "liberate" an allied Nation-State from evil forces led by an epic-level Lich/Sorcerer. They might just have a plan. They might know what they are doing. They might have a Plan B if things go wrong. Since they are Elves, their plans may go all the way to Plan Z.

I like Elves. :smallsmile:

Ghostwheel
2012-01-05, 02:51 AM
Surprised I'm the first one to suggest this, but the Resistance's immediate presence at this scene makes it highly suspect that this is Xykon's actual phylactery. I think it's possible that the resistance, having a generally good idea what said phylactery looks like from the various pooling of information between Hinjo, O-Chul, and themselves, may have made duplicates to use as bait to trap and kill large groups of hobgoblins.

That wouldn't advance the story very much. The rule of drama argues against it.

M.A.D
2012-01-05, 02:55 AM
Flinging the phylactery into the Azure City Gobbotopia's rift is still risking interception from goblin clerics, whom will definitely be stationed to guard it.

derfenrirwolv
2012-01-05, 03:01 AM
So does xykon find out about this through raise dead, speak with dead, or animate tattling barber shop quartet ?

Porthos
2012-01-05, 03:07 AM
Here's what I am trying to figure out. The Goblin party had spellcasters with them. So why didn't they cast Sending (from a scroll to get around the 10 minute casting time - there seems to be ample evidence that scrolls bypass the casting times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) within OotSVerse) immediately upon finding the phylactery? It's been established that it can be cast within the Cloistered area as long as it is originating from within. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) So that's not an excuse.

Well the obvious answer is: They weren't told to cast Sending (again from a scroll) the very second they found the phylactery. But, again, why? I mean, Xykon made it exceedingly clear to Redcloak (and presumably Jirix) just how important he felt this item was. And Redcloak/Jirix doesn't have to tell the searching parties just why something is so gosh darn important for immediate communications. Just that it is.

So, presuming this isn't some sort of plan to flush out the Resistance (which it might very well be), I am wondering just how pissed of Xykon is gonna be when he finds out his "little bauble" has fallen into danger again when it could have been easily preventable.

In fact, the more I think about how easily preventable all of this was, the more I am thinking something is not quite right here. To paraphrase a famous movie, it just seems a bit too easy to me.

Burner28
2012-01-05, 03:15 AM
Nice!:smallsmile:

Othniel Edden
2012-01-05, 03:47 AM
:-/ If Xykon gets destroried I fear for the Azure City Underground!

zoobie
2012-01-05, 05:19 AM
heh. that was alright...

M.A.D
2012-01-05, 06:18 AM
Here's what I am trying to figure out. The Goblin party had spellcasters with them. So why didn't they cast Sending (from a scroll to get around the 10 minute casting time - there seems to be ample evidence that scrolls bypass the casting times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) within OotSVerse) immediately upon finding the phylactery? It's been established that it can be cast within the Cloistered area as long as it is originating from within. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) So that's not an excuse.

Well the obvious answer is: They weren't told to cast Sending (again from a scroll) the very second they found the phylactery. But, again, why? I mean, Xykon made it exceedingly clear to Redcloak (and presumably Jirix) just how important he felt this item was. And Redcloak/Jirix doesn't have to tell the searching parties just why something is so gosh darn important for immediate communications. Just that it is.

So, presuming this isn't some sort of plan to flush out the Resistance (which it might very well be), I am wondering just how pissed of Xykon is gonna be when he finds out his "little bauble" has fallen into danger again when it could have been easily preventable.

In fact, the more I think about how easily preventable all of this was, the more I am thinking something is not quite right here. To paraphrase a famous movie, it just seems a bit too easy to me.

It was never said that they DIDN"T cast Sending the moment they found the phylactery. It was only said that they're turning it in for Jirix. In fact, since the leader of team Peregrine mentioned that the dead goblins won't be able to report them, it means that Team Evil would have known that someone had stolen the phylactery, in turn, means that they have already known that the phylactery have been found.

Tannhaeuser
2012-01-05, 06:29 AM
"That's probably why there are, like, seventeen types..."

martianmister
2012-01-05, 06:58 AM
"That's probably why there are, like, seventeen types..."

What? :smallconfused:

Icedaemon
2012-01-05, 08:07 AM
Damn elven vermin murdering those poor hard-working hobgoblins!

factotum
2012-01-05, 08:21 AM
Given the title of today's strip, wouldn't it have made more sense for the previous one to be called "Finders Keepers"?

Lvl45DM!
2012-01-05, 09:30 AM
I really like that one eyed chick she always goes into battle with a smile on her face

Warren Dew
2012-01-05, 11:17 AM
I am not going to disagree with you, and I am not going to read all ten pages of responses before I reply. So forgive me if I reiterate something that was already mentioned in this thread. So here goes:

THESE ARE ELVES!

They are the elves that an Elvish Kingdom sent to "liberate" an allied Nation-State from evil forces led by an epic-level Lich/Sorcerer. They might just have a plan. They might know what they are doing. They might have a Plan B if things go wrong. Since they are Elves, their plans may go all the way to Plan Z.

I like Elves. :smallsmile:
I find it interesting that the elves and the humans are working at cross purposes here. The longer it takes for Xykon to get his amulet back, the longer he stays in Azure City and the more difficult the city is to free from the goblins. This is good for the elves, who presumably don't want Xykon focusing closer to the elven lands, but bad for the human resistance that just wants to retake Azure City.

Kish
2012-01-05, 11:44 AM
Given the title of today's strip, wouldn't it have made more sense for the previous one to be called "Finders Keepers"?
That would have 1) warned that the phylactery was going to be stolen, and 2) resulted in a lot of people wondering, "Is that actually the phylactery, or is it just a random necklace?"

martianmister
2012-01-05, 11:45 AM
This is good for the elves, who presumably don't want Xykon focusing closer to the elven lands, but bad for the human resistance that just wants to retake Azure City.

It's good for humans too. Xykon with Snarl's power is a danger for all.

SlyJohnny
2012-01-05, 11:58 AM
Why are you all assuming they can just chuck the phylactery into the rift? Blackwing took the phylactery in really close, and may have even thrown it directly into the rift, and it just passed right through. Sure, the characters have been treating the rifts the same way they'd treat spheres of annihilation, but that was based on the assumption that the snarl would be active and aggressive about lashing out from the rift, which is old information; the snarl hasn't shown it's face at any of the rifts, and possibly has died, or chilled out in the past couple decades and taking up the creation of planets for a hobby, or something equally weird.


Here's what I am trying to figure out. The Goblin party had spellcasters with them. So why didn't they cast Sending (from a scroll to get around the 10 minute casting time

Sending is a 4th level cleric spell, and a 5th level wizard spell. They have thousands of hobgoblins, split into... what, a hundred groups, running around looking for this thing. Even though they seem to have enough spellcasters to have at least one accompanying every large team, it's highly unlikely that all their clerics are 7th level, and thus casting a 4th level spell from a scroll isn't an auto success.

Plus, they probably don't have the scroll-making spellcasters to quickly produce a scroll of sending for every 1st level cleric in the horde, and 700gp each spread over that many clerics is an expensive proposition.

jere7my
2012-01-05, 12:31 PM
Why are you all assuming they can just chuck the phylactery into the rift? Blackwing took the phylactery in really close, and may have even thrown it directly into the rift, and it just passed right through.

It didn't pass through — it just missed. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html

bertoltus
2012-01-05, 12:41 PM
Why are you all assuming they can just chuck the phylactery into the rift? Blackwing took the phylactery in really close, and may have even thrown it directly into the rift, and it just passed right through. Sure, the characters have been treating the rifts the same way they'd treat spheres of annihilation, but that was based on the assumption that the snarl would be active and aggressive about lashing out from the rift, which is old information; the snarl hasn't shown it's face at any of the rifts, and possibly has died, or chilled out in the past couple decades and taking up the creation of planets for a hobby, or something equally weird.



Sending is a 4th level cleric spell, and a 5th level wizard spell. They have thousands of hobgoblins, split into... what, a hundred groups, running around looking for this thing. Even though they seem to have enough spellcasters to have at least one accompanying every large team, it's highly unlikely that all their clerics are 7th level, and thus casting a 4th level spell from a scroll isn't an auto success.

Plus, they probably don't have the scroll-making spellcasters to quickly produce a scroll of sending for every 1st level cleric in the horde, and 700gp each spread over that many clerics is an expensive proposition.

However, they could still have cast Dancing Lights.

jidasfire
2012-01-05, 12:48 PM
That wouldn't advance the story very much. The rule of drama argues against it.

In and of itself, I suppose it wouldn't, but that is not to say it isn't an effective mislead to start a scene with. It manages to show us a number of plot elements, such as how the search is going, what the Resistance is up to, and it can lead into what may be the actual resolution of the phylactery plot. I'm not saying I 100% believe this theory of mine to be correct, but it offers a far better explanation for how the Resistance knew they were there than anything else. After all, it's absolutely protected from scrying, so they couldn't have found it that way. Also, if they had found Xykon's phylactery on their own, why even give the hobgoblins and therefore their significantly more powerful leaders a chance to discover its location? Why not just cast invisibility on their mage and chuck it in the rift quietly, thus keeping the hobgoblins searching effectively forever and either destroying or rendering vulnerable Xykon, then passing that info along to Hinjo? I also don't believe it's as simple as luck, since that's just bad storytelling.

Cranica
2012-01-05, 02:49 PM
Not quite! The heroes who sealed the gates the first time around (at least, what we've seen of them) seem to be capable of doing it -- Soon more or less had Xykon and Redcloak up against the wall, and the others would have been just as experienced (if not moreso.) Lirian and Dorokan both had to be fought strategically, too.

Draketooth in particular might be able to stand up to Xykon in a fight, if he's still alive.

The Order of the Scribble were all Epic level, and are very possibly all dead. In any event, I can't see Girard being a match for Xykon and Redcloak together, given that they should both be quite capable of True Seeing their way through any illusion Draketooth can conjure up. Xykon is just as capable of Energy Draining Girard into oblivion as he was Dorukan. As for the fights with the others, those were at the doorstep of their own fortress (Dorukan) and in a consecrated throne room as an incorporeal spirit immune to Xykon's most powerful spells (Soon). I haven't read SOD, so I can't speak to Lirian.

Soon, in particular, had just about every advantage he could have hoped for: Consecrated throne room, incorporeality, Redcloak not being present to begin with, Xykon having spent high-level spells earlier (and probably taken some damage from Roy), the element of surprise, the fact that the paladins doubtless did some damage to Xykon before their deaths, AND an entire army of ghost paladins. Remove even one of those advantages, and Soon would have lost.


Is it wrong that I feel bad for the hobgoblins? They were just doing their jobs and they were having such a good day.

Not at all. A recurring theme in OOTS, especially with the hobgoblins, is underlings getting slaughtered for a plan outside their scope.

Also, I looked up abjurations that could protect the phylactery, and I came up with a really short list of effects outside of blocking scrying. Are there any that increase hardness of an object?

Aquillion
2012-01-05, 03:41 PM
The Order of the Scribble were all Epic level, and are very possibly all dead. In any event, I can't see Girard being a match for Xykon and Redcloak together, given that they should both be quite capable of True Seeing their way through any illusion Draketooth can conjure up. Xykon is just as capable of Energy Draining Girard into oblivion as he was Dorukan.Xykon said that Dorukan only lost because he was lured out of his dungeon, where he had most of his defenses. Draketooth, who seems much more practical, is unlikely to make the same mistake -- a fight with him will be much more like a fight with Soon, where Draketooth's established defenses will play a huge role.

(Assuming he's still alive, obviously, and that nobody else deals with him first.)

The Pilgrim
2012-01-05, 03:51 PM
In fact, the more I think about how easily preventable all of this was, the more I am thinking something is not quite right here. To paraphrase a famous movie, it just seems a bit too easy to me.

Yep. Last time we seen Redcloak, he was very concerned at the information that they had elven insurgents in the City. I suppose he is not fond of leaving Gobbtopia without rooting out the Resistance first. Best way to do it? Give them the Philactery and, thus, force Xykon to erradicate them with extreme prejudice.

Menarker
2012-01-05, 03:58 PM
Something occurred to me.

The most commonly mentioned "drawback" to this strip's attack was the "Speak with Dead" spell. The idea being that if one of Team Evil cast the spell on one of the killed searched party (under the assumption the bodies have not been disposed of in such a way to prevent this), then it would be a simple matter of learning that the phylactery was taken.

However, there is a crucial limitation. As I'll quote and bold relevantly from SRD...



You grant the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that you put to it. You may ask one question per two caster levels. Unasked questions are wasted if the duration expires. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive.

...

This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

The spell doesn't allow the summoned spirit to just report anything in depth. It is like a genie whose wishes is to grant the knowledge that it knew during its lifetime and only that requested information. Team Evil has no reason to assume that particular search party was attacked for any unusual purpose. They knew there was insurgents (Elven and Paladins) in the city already and that this might have been one of their several raids of which to reduce the enemy population and cause panic and whatnot.

So unless Team Evil actually suspect the attack has special or unusual motives to the point they feel the need to cast the spell and then directly states something to the effect of "Why were you attacked" then it is unlikely the spell itself will be of any use.

Whiffet
2012-01-05, 04:12 PM
So does xykon find out about this through raise dead, speak with dead, or animate tattling barber shop quartet ?

Hee. :smallbiggrin: I want to see animate tattling barber shop quartet.



"That's probably why there are, like, seventeen types..."What? :smallconfused:

Reference to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html) strip. That's the title of it.

martianmister
2012-01-05, 04:20 PM
^ Oh thanks. That's been buggering me for hours. :smallsmile:

factotum
2012-01-05, 05:59 PM
The spell doesn't allow the summoned spirit to just report anything in depth. It is like a genie whose wishes is to grant the knowledge that it knew during its lifetime and only that requested information.

However, the one time in the strip we've seen it used (strip #95), not only does the animated goblin talk about his spirit being wrested from its rightful rest--suggesting it actually IS the spirit of the dead goblin--it's able to tell Xykon his keys are in his pocket, which I think is an unlikely piece of information that particular goblin would have had while alive. (And note also that the response is in no way cryptic, merely very short!).

Kish
2012-01-05, 06:54 PM
^ Oh thanks. That's been buggering me for hours. :smallsmile:
:smalleek:

Candle Jack
2012-01-05, 06:56 PM
^ Oh thanks. That's been buggering me for hours. :smallsmile:

Yes, that sounds very uncomfortable.

undead hero
2012-01-05, 07:05 PM
Noooo! The Hobgoblin Adventuring Group!:smallfrown:

Gaddang meddlesome resistance, always ruining everything.

Someone on one of the thread speculated there might be a divine caster who for plot/story/just for fun never is shown on screen... as in he/she is always off panel :P

Now that would be great if that is the one to tell everyone bout what happened.

Gnoman
2012-01-05, 07:28 PM
Something occurred to me.

The most commonly mentioned "drawback" to this strip's attack was the "Speak with Dead" spell. The idea being that if one of Team Evil cast the spell on one of the killed searched party (under the assumption the bodies have not been disposed of in such a way to prevent this), then it would be a simple matter of learning that the phylactery was taken.

However, there is a crucial limitation. As I'll quote and bold relevantly from SRD...



The spell doesn't allow the summoned spirit to just report anything in depth. It is like a genie whose wishes is to grant the knowledge that it knew during its lifetime and only that requested information. Team Evil has no reason to assume that particular search party was attacked for any unusual purpose. They knew there was insurgents (Elven and Paladins) in the city already and that this might have been one of their several raids of which to reduce the enemy population and cause panic and whatnot.

So unless Team Evil actually suspect the attack has special or unusual motives to the point they feel the need to cast the spell and then directly states something to the effect of "Why were you attacked" then it is unlikely the spell itself will be of any use.

Not at all. You could get the information without too much trouble with just yes or no answers, using only questions that you would know to ask.

Q: "Did you locate the item?" (This is a search party. They would know to ask this.)
A: Yes

Q: Did you have it when you were attacked?
A: Yes

Q: Were there elves? (They know there are elves involved, and that worried Redcloak)
A: Yes

Q: Were there paladins?
A: Yes

Q: Were they working together?
A: Yes

(note that this is only 5 questions. Redcloak would have several left.)

Geordnet
2012-01-05, 07:53 PM
Except Redcloak's already left. In the first panel, the hobbos were about to report to Minister Jirix, even though Redcloak was the one who ordered the search.

I hope the past few strips are the start of a new plot arc for the next dozen or so; I want to see all the minor characters from Azure City again!



I wonder what the Resistance plans to do with it now that they have it. They won't be able to destroy it by conventional means, and dropping it in a volcano probably wouldn't work even if they could get to one. Catapult it into the Rift like O-Chuul planned, maybe?

The MunchKING
2012-01-05, 10:28 PM
^ Oh thanks. That's been buggering me for hours. :smallsmile:

That sounds painful... :smalleek:

The MunchKING
2012-01-05, 10:29 PM
That would have 1) warned that the phylactery was going to be stolen, and 2) resulted in a lot of people wondering, "Is that actually the phylactery, or is it just a random necklace?"

Also it would have implied random Dead Goblin guy was going to KEEP the medalion rather than turn it over to the authorities.