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Circle of Life
2012-01-04, 03:22 PM
The Scoundrel

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3509/scarlet2010byarvalisd2z.jpg
Image is credit to arvalis of deviantArt.


Hit Dice: d8
Starting Age: Simple
Starting Gold: 4d4x10

Class Skills (6 + Int mod per level, x4 at 1st level)
The Scoundrel's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Improved Weapon Finesse, Scoundrel Strikes (+1d6 / +1), Scoundrel's Style
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Evasion, Parry
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Rapier Wit
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge, Scoundrel Strikes (+2d6 / +2)
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Deceptive Roll
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Improved Critical
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Riposte, Scoundrel Strikes (+3d6 / +3)
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Scoundrel's Tactics
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Lightning Strikes
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Scoundrel Strikes (+4d6 / +4)
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Flashing Blade
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Dazing Critical
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Scoundrel Strikes (+5d6 / +5)
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|Improved Evasion
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Stunning Critical
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Scoundrel Strikes (+6d6 / +6)
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|Greater Lightning Strikes
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Eviscerate
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Scoundrel Strikes (+7d6 / +7)
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Scoundrel's Speciality[/table]

Class Features: The following are all class features of the Scoundrel class.

Weapon and Armor proficiency: Scoundrels are proficient with all simple weapons and with all one-handed martial melee piercing and slashing weapons. If your campaign features firearms, Scoundrels are also proficient with the flintlock pistol and revolver. Scoundrels are proficient with light armor but no shields.

Initiator: A Scoundrel adds her full class levels to her basic initiator level, rather than one-half as normal for non-martial adepts. This ability does not impart any knowledge of martial maneuvers, but the Scoundrel may learn them as normal via the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats. A multiclass Scoundrel still adds only half her levels in this class to the initiator level of a martial adept, so this feature is primarily of use to Scoundrels making use of the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats.

Scoundrel's Style (Ex): Most Scoundrel abilities require that the Scoundrel wield a single one-handed piercing or slashing weapon, no shield, and light or no armor to be used. With the exception of Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Deceptive Roll, none of the Scoundrel's abilities can be used unless these requirements are met.

At 1st level, a Scoundrel gains Skill Focus: Bluff as a bonus feat. Additionally, she chooses whether she will be either a Cunning Scoundrel or a Dashing Scoundrel. This choice determines which abilities the Scoundrel will gain as she progresses through the class, as well as the ability score that determines various class features.

A Cunning Scoundrel gains Skill Focus: Intimidate as an additional bonus feat, and bases save DCs and variable class abilities on her Intelligence modifier.

A Dashing Scoundrel gains Skill Focus: Diplomacy as an additional bonus feat, and bases save DCs and variable class abilities on her Charisma modifier.

Improved Weapon Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a Scoundrel gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition to the normal benefits of the feat, the Scoundrel may also finesse one-handed piercing or slashing weapons, and may add her Dexterity score to damage with finesseable weapons in place of Strength.

Scoundrel Strikes (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, a Scoundrel deals extra damage with her attacks. The exact details are determined by her scoundrel's style.

Cunning Scoundrel: Backstab: If a Scoundrel can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. This version of Scoundrel's Strikes is identical to a Rogue's Sneak Attack ability, with the exception that it applies to all creatures that are not oozes, swarms, or incorporeal. This ability counts as Sneak Attack in all respects, and progresses as seen on the table above.

Dashing Scoundrel: Love Tap: Whenever the Scoundrel strikes with a melee attack or a ranged attack from within 30 feet, she deals an additional point of damage. This extra damage is precision damage, and so carries all the restrictions of the Backstab ability above as to what may be affected by it. At each of the indicated points on the table above, the precision damage dealt by this ability increases by an additional point.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a Scoundrel can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Scoundrel is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Scoundrel does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Parry (Ex): At the beginning of each of her turns, a Scoundrel of 2nd level or higher may elect to take a penalty to all attacks made up to half her class level until the start of her next turn. For each point of attack penalty taken, the Scoundrel may make a single parry as a free action that may be taken out of turn. A parry is an opposed attack roll that may be made whenever the Scoundrel is subject to a physical attack, whether melee or ranged. If the Scoundrel's attack roll surpasses that of the attack directed at her, the attack is deflected away harmlessly.

Additionally, each variety of Scoundrel gains an additional effect.

Cunning Scoundrel: Opportunistic Strike: For every two points of penalty taken via this ability, the Scoundrel may resolve one attack of opportunity taken before the start of her next turn as a touch attack.

Dashing Scoundrel: Bladeweave: For every two points of penalty taken via this ability, the Scoundrel may make one melee attack of her choice before the start of the next round force a Reflex save (DC 10 + class level + Cha) or daze the struck foe for one round. The decision to use this ability must be made before the attack roll is made, and can be applied to attacks of opportunity.

Rapier Wit (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a Scoundrel adds their appropriate ability modifier (Intelligence for Cunning, Charisma for Dashing) as a competence bonus to AC and to damage rolls with Scoundrel weapons.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Scoundrel can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If a Scoundrel already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Deceptive Roll (Ex): As a standard action, a Scoundrel of 5th level may move up to her speed in a straight line and make a single melee attack against any one foe she threatens during this movement. The Scoundrel may make a Bluff check to feint during this attack without consuming an action, and Tumbling while using Deceptive Roll does not incur a penalty to movement speed.

Improved Critical: At 6th level, a Scoundrel gains the Improved Critical feat for all Scoundrel weapons, even if she does not meet the prerequisite base attack bonus. If she already possessed one or more Improved Critical feats for Scoundrel weapons, she may retrain those feats upon attaining 6th level.

Riposte (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, whenever a foe makes a melee attack against the Scoundrel and fails to hit (whether because it failed to overcome her AC, missed due to a miss chance, was deflected by the Scoundrel's Parry ability, or so on), the Scoundrel may immediately take an attack of opportunity against that foe.

Scoundrel's Tactics (Ex): When taking the Total Defense action, a Scoundrel of 8th level adds her appropriate mental ability score to the AC bonus. Additionally, each variety of Scoundrel gains a second ability at this level.

Cunning Scoundrel: Cunning Teamwork: When using the Aid Another action to grant an ally AC or improve an attack roll, the Scoundrel grants an additional insight bonus equal to half her class level.

Dashing Scoundrel: Blade Diplomacy: While threatening a foe, the Scoundrel may make a Diplomacy check in place of an Intimidate check to 'demoralize' a foe, convincing them not to attack her, and may make this check as a swift action. If successful, the foe cowers in place for one round or until damaged by the Scoundrel or one of the Scoundrel's allies.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) A Scoundrel of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies another Scoundrel (or a Rogue, or any other class with precision damage that relies on flanking) the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more levels in that class than the Scoundrel does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level required to flank the character.

Lightning Strikes (Ex): As a full-round action, a Scoundrel of 9th level may move up to her speed and make a full-attack at the same time. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and the Scoundrel may divide the attacks as she wishes throughout the movement. Once this ability is used, the Scoundrel may not do so again for 1d4 rounds.

Cunning Scoundrel: Force of Nature: When using her Lightning Strikes ability, the Scoundrel may maximize all weapon damage inflicted, as well as all bonus hitpoint damage from weapon enchantments.

Dashing Scoundrel: Storm of Steel: When using her Lightning Strikes ability, the Scoundrel may make an additional attack at her highest attack bonus.

Flashing Blade (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, whenever the Scoundrel fails to hit with a melee attack, she gains a +2 competence bonus to all future melee attack rolls until the start of her next turn. This bonus stacks multiple times, to a maximum bonus equal to her class level.

Dazing Critical (Ex): Starting at 12th level, whenever the Scoundrel successfully confirms a critical hit, the struck foe is also dazed for one round. A foe dazed in this fashion is immune to the same effect for 1d4 rounds after the effect ends.

Improved Evasion (Ex): Starting at 14th level, the Scoundrel's evasion ability improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the Scoundrel still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Scoundrel does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Stunning Critical (Ex): Starting at 15th level, whenever the Scoundrel successfully confirms a critical hit, the struck foe is also stunned for one round. A foe stunned in this fashion is immune to the same effect for 1d4 rounds after the effect ends.

Greater Lightning Strikes (Ex): At her discretion when using her Lighting Strikes, a Scoundrel of 17th level or higher may instead use this ability. Greater Lightning Strikes functions as Lightning Strikes, except that the Scoundrel may move twice her speed and make two full attacks. After using this ability, the Scoundrel is exhausted for one round and then fatigued for 1d6 rounds. Greater Lightning Strikes cannot be used while the Scoundrel is exhausted or fatigued. If the Scoundrel is immune to either exhaustion or fatigue, Greater Lightning Strikes may instead be used once per encounter.

Eviscerate (Ex): As a standard action, a Scoundrel of 18th level may may a single melee attack at her highest attack bonus. If the attack hits and threatens a critical, the Scoundrel may forgo confirming the critical threat to instead force the struck foe to make a Fortitude save, DC 10 + class level + Int or Cha modifier or be slain instantly.

Scoundrel's Specialty (Ex): At 20th level, a Scoundrel gains one of the following abilities based on her Scoundrel's Style.

Cunning Scoundrel: Keen Eye: Once per round, the Scoundrel may may treat a d20 roll--any roll, including one that has already been rolled--as though she got a twenty on her roll (before modifiers). No other benefits (automatic success, vorpal weapons) of rolling a twenty are gained; only the numeric value. The Scoundrel must choose to use this ability before the results of the roll are determined.

Dashing Scoundrel: Better Lucky Than Good: Whenever she makes an attack roll, but before she knows the results of the attack, the Scoundrel may reroll the attack. She must abide by the result of this second roll, even if it is worse than the original.

RaggedAngel
2012-01-04, 05:47 PM
Hey look, a full BAB class that has enough skill points to tie its shoelaces, which seems to be a Swashbuckler fix that doesn't suck. I'm already grinning. :smallsmile::smallamused:

Now then, on to the comments.

1. I have a hard time deciding which option is stronger, which is good, but I'm fairly certain it's the Cunning Scoundrel. Not because of the higher precision damage, which it certainly has, but because Int is more useful on a skillmonkey than Cha. Cha can be boosted with magic items, but only a natural Int score will grant more skill points, meaning that the path that focuses on Int will tend to be more skillful. Skill points are more important than Charisma, even when it comes to social skills.

2. I did some napkin-based math, and as far as I can tell a decently built Scoundrel will have more damage potential and significantly more skills than a Warblade of the same level. This is balanced, however, by less versatility and less defensive and utility options (IHS, WRT, Mountain Hammer lockpick).

3. I like that you added Initiator; however, it doesn't add much to the class, to the point that you don't even mention it on the class table. Nods to the ToB are always nice in my book, but I feel like it doesn't do enough. Perhaps adding something about how a multiclass Scoundrel/Initiating Class will add directly, instead of 1/2?

4. I would make a note that this class is amazing as a 3 level dip, but people don't tend to do that with homebrew. Even still, 3 levels give you (assuming you choose Cunning): 1d6 Sneak Attack, +3 BAB, good Fort and Ref progression, free Weapon Finesse and Dex to damage with Light and One-Handed Weapons, Skill Focus: Bluff and Intimidate, Evasion, 1 Parry a turn and take AoO's as touch attack, and Int to both AC and Damage. That's a lot for just three levels. Perhaps pushing Evasion back a few levels might help? I've only ever seen it this early on 3/4th's BAB classes.

5. I recommend, in line with the comment above, that you split up Weapon Finesse and Improved Weapon Finesse, partially to make the class less top-heavy and partially because a level 1 Scoundrel built with, say, a Halfling is putting out damage to match a Barbarian. This is reasonable, except your AC is going to be 4-5 points higher than his, and your skills put him to shame.

6. I really, really like this class, but I think it may need some playtesting to make sure that it's balanced. I know a poster who likes to playtest your homebrew; I'll have her PM you. :smallwink:

Circle of Life
2012-01-04, 05:58 PM
3. I like that you added Initiator; however, it doesn't add much to the class, to the point that you don't even mention it on the class table. Nods to the ToB are always nice in my book, but I feel like it doesn't do enough. Perhaps adding something about how a multiclass Scoundrel/Initiating Class will add directly, instead of 1/2?

I almost did this, then I realized that you could make a Scoundrel 17/Swordsage1/Warblade1/Crusader1 and have all the 9th level maneuvers ever with IL 19.

RaggedAngel
2012-01-04, 06:20 PM
I almost did this, then I realized that you could make a Scoundrel 17/Swordsage1/Warblade1/Crusader1 and have all the 9th level maneuvers ever with IL 19.

:smalleek: Once again proving that you have a much firmer Balance-head on your shoulders. I yield to your superior homebrew powers.

Pyromancer999
2012-01-04, 07:45 PM
Don't you add 1/2 your non-initiating class levels to your initiator level anways?

Circle of Life
2012-01-04, 07:51 PM
Don't you add 1/2 your non-initiating class levels to your initiator level anways?

Yes.

The Initiator class feature has been updated to make its intended usage much clearer.

Circle of Life
2012-01-05, 02:34 PM
The Scoundrel is, in many ways, a replacement for the Swashbuckler and the Rogue at the same time. To that end, I've decided to remake a few of the multiclass feats from Complete Scoundrel to be more appropriate for the Scoundrel. There's the new Daring Adept feat in there as well, which is what the Initiator ability wants to be when it grows up.

Ascetic ScoundrelPrerequisites:Parry class feature, Ki Strike (magic) class feature
Benefit: Combine your total Scoundrel and Monk levels for determining the progression of your Ki Strike ability, Unarmed Strike damage, and Flurry of Blows (or equivalent) penalties and bonuses. Additionally, you may use your Monk abilities in Light armor, and you may apply your Wisdom modifier to your Scoundrel class abilities in place of your Intelligence or Charisma modifier, as appropriate. You may use your unarmed strike damage in place of normal weapon damage, and you apply the full benefit of your Ki Strike class feature to all wielded Scoundrel weapons. Finally, you may Flurry with Scoundrel weapons in addition to the normal Flurry weapon options.
Special: A Scoundrel with this feat does not gain the normal competence bonus to AC from his Rapier Wit class feature.
Daring AdeptPrerequisites:Rapier Wit class feature and Zealous Surge class feature -or- AC Bonus class feature usable in Light armor -or- Battle Ardor class feature
Benefit: You may add your full Scoundrel levels to the initiator level of any one class whose prerequisites of this feat you possess when you gain it, rather than one-half as normal. Once made, this choice is permanent.
Daring WarriorPrerequisites: Rapier Wit class feature, Weapon Specialization in a Scoundrel weapon
Benefit: Combine your total Scoundrel and Fighter levels for the purpose of determining the effectiveness of your Scoundrel Strikes, the penalty you may take for Parry, and the bonus feats that would be granted by the Fighter class.
Swift AmbusherPrerequisites:Scoundrel Strikes +1d6 / +1, Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC
Benefit: Combine your total Scoundrel and Scout levels for the purpose of determining the effectiveness of your Skirmish ability.

gkathellar
2012-01-06, 06:45 AM
So, first of all, I like this a lot. That said, I think it has some problems, and I've been putting off PEACHing it because I actually want to get into the nitty-gritty with those. If I don't mention something, assume I think it's fine.

Scoundrel's Style feels overly restrictive to me, and unnecessarily so. I get that there's a stylistic thing at work here, but there's no good mechanical reason that the Scoundrel shouldn't be able to use his abilities with, say, a one-handed cudgel, or no weapon at all. Moreover, these are entirely in keeping with the visual style of the scoundrel - winning a fencing match with a ruler or simple fisticuffs. I'd open it up to bludgeoning weapons. Also, the language should say "light or one-handed weapons," as one-handed is a specific class of weapon that doesn't include light weapons. (It may also need to clarify that they must be used with one hand, depending on whether that was your intent.)

Likewise, if you make those changes to Scoundrel's Style, you'll need to modify the text of Improved Weapon Finesse.

Scoundrel Strikes should really be able to affect incorporeal opponents. If you can hit them, you should be able to hit their weak points, and it just seems like an unnecessary penalty in certain situations.

I have a vague feeling that Love Tap should deal a touch more damage, or at least scale better, but maybe not.

Opportunistic Strike and Bladeweave suffer from pretending to come in at level 2, and actually coming in at level 4, because you can't take a -2 penalty with parry until later.

Riposte should clarify that it doesn't go beyond you normal limit of attack of opportunity.

I'd strongly suggest you expand Scoundrel's Tactics to include Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. Total Defense is boring, even with a host of counterattack abilities.

Lightning Strikes is where things get really exciting. I like it. I'm not sure if I like the 1d4-round recharge time. I get it if you don't want people using it every round, but a 1-round recharge should be enough to insure more varied tactics, and really I feel like you could drop the recharge altogether and still be okay.

Flashing Blade is nice, especially in the way it keeps Parry relevant.

Considering you get them at 12th and 15th level, Dazing and Stunning Critical could afford to shorten their recharge time, or do away with it altogether.

Greater Lightning Strikes doesn't need such severe restrictions. At all. This is a 17th-level ability, and since you don't have any other maneuvers it can afford to be better than Moment of Perfect Mind.

Eviscerate is completely useless. You get to give up your attack routine to get, at most, a 30% chance of getting to make a second attack roll to confirm an effect that the opponent then gets to save against? It has four vectors for failure, while other folks have had their one- or two-vector SoDs for 5-3 levels.

Overall, a very good class that gives melee plenty of nice things, but places too many restrictions on their use and usefulness.

EDIT: Oh, yes, multiclass feats.

Ascetic Scoundrel looks very nice. But since it rules out Greater Lightning Strikes, I would consider how it matches up against Swift Ambusher in terms of power. I'm not convinced that the prerequisite shouldn't be changed from Ki Strike to Still Mind. Still, I like how Ascetic Scoundrel is now a viable alternative to Talashtora and Unarmed Swordsage.

Daring Adept and Daring Warrior are fine. I have nothing to say about them.

Swift Ambusher is very good, but I think not unreasonably so. Again, I like how this provides a viable alternative to Swift Hunter.

Eldest
2012-01-06, 08:24 AM
I've been reading this, and I just remembered I should post to say that I'll review it once I'm sure I understand the class. Also, cool idea.

Circle of Life
2012-01-06, 12:45 PM
Opportunistic Strike and Bladeweave suffer from pretending to come in at level 2, and actually coming in at level 4, because you can't take a -2 penalty with parry until later.

That's intentional. Uncanny Dodge isn't much of a class feature really, so you should consider them the primary class feature of level 4.


Considering you get them at 12th and 15th level, Dazing and Stunning Critical could afford to shorten their recharge time, or do away with it altogether.

The recharge is meant to prevent a Scoundrel from daze-locking an opponent, considering how easy it is to boost critical threat ranges and how nearly impossible it is to become immune to dazing. Still, a one-round lockout should give someone enough time to get out of the Scoundrel's way if they really want to.


Greater Lightning Strikes doesn't need such severe restrictions. At all. This is a 17th-level ability, and since you don't have any other maneuvers it can afford to be better than Moment of Perfect Mind.

Greater Lightning Strikes is two full attacks, with double movement, divided as you want, without provoking attacks of opportunity, while maximizing all the damage dealt or adding two additional attacks. Not to mention the interaction with Dazing and Stunning critical. That sounds better than Moment of Perfect Mind to me. I assume you meant Time Stands Still, but the point stands.:smallwink:


Eviscerate is completely useless. You get to give up your attack routine to get, at most, a 30% chance of getting to make a second attack roll to confirm an effect that the opponent then gets to save against? It has four vectors for failure, while other folks have had their one- or two-vector SoDs for 5-3 levels.

Eviscerate is an at-will save-or-die that doesn't require you to confirm it. You forgo confirming the critical to force a save or die. I don't have ToB in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that's similar to a Tiger Claw SoD.

gkathellar
2012-01-06, 01:12 PM
considering how easy it is to boost critical threat ranges.

How, exactly? There are something like two threat-boosters that stack in the entire continuity of 3.5 material.


Greater Lightning Strikes is two full attacks, with double movement, divided as you want, without provoking attacks of opportunity, while maximizing all the damage dealt or adding two additional attacks. Not to mention the interaction with Dazing and Stunning critical. That sounds better than Moment of Perfect Mind to me. I assume you meant Time Stands Still, but the point stands.:smallwink:

I did mean Time Stands Still, yeah. I still say that the exhaustion and fatigue penalties can go ... hm. What if Lightning Strikes kept some recharge time, and Greater Lightning Strikes simultaneously removed said recharge and allowed you to keep the recharge to get the Greater effect? That'll let you pull off Lightning Strikes every round and Greater Lightning Strikes every 2-5 rounds which at 17th level is hardly too powerful.


Eviscerate is an at-will save-or-die that doesn't require you to confirm it. You forgo confirming the critical to force a save or die. I don't have ToB in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that's similar to a Tiger Claw SoD.

The issue is that it's an at-will save or die that has to be declared before hand, costs you your full attack, and then requires a critical threat to fire. I see that it's strong, but if I were playing and 18th-level scoundrel, I don't think I would end up using it much.

RaggedAngel
2012-01-06, 01:14 PM
Eviscerate is an at-will save-or-die that doesn't require you to confirm it. You forgo confirming the critical to force a save or die. I don't have ToB in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that's similar to a Tiger Claw SoD.

Checking it over, it's actually a bit weaker, because the ToB SoD's don't require a critical hit; just an easy Jump check. I understand that you don't want a Scoundrel to have limitless SoD's, but forgoing a full attack or charge is a big trade-off for a small chance of autodeath.

Circle of Life
2012-01-06, 01:19 PM
How, exactly? There are something like two threat-boosters that stack in the entire continuity of 3.5 material.

Depending on whether BoVD material is allowed or not, you can get anywhere from a 13-20 crit range to a 9-20 crit range (Disciple of Dispater is funky like that).

It depends on how strictly you stick to 3.5 material regardless of updates, mostly.


The issue is that it's an at-will save or die that has to be declared before hand, costs you your full attack, and then requires a critical threat to fire. I see that it's strong, but if I were playing and 18th-level scoundrel, I don't think I would end up using it much.

*shrug* Options that increase versatility without increasing power are usually a good thing. If you have to decide whether to use your SoD (and I maintain that there would be a time and a place for it in nearly any game) rather than your other abilities, instead of simply spamming the SoD as soon as you get it, that sounds like what I was aiming for.
Checking it over, it's actually a bit weaker, because the ToB SoD's don't require a critical hit; just an easy Jump check. I understand that you don't want a Scoundrel to have limitless SoD's, but forgoing a full attack or charge is a big trade-off for a small chance of autodeath.
As with the other stuff, it's not so small a chance, really. Its raw power does depend on what's available though.

Eh.

Would people prefer if it didn't require a critical threat, but granted immunity to the effect if a creature saves against it?

gkathellar
2012-01-06, 01:44 PM
Depending on whether BoVD material is allowed or not, you can get anywhere from a 13-20 crit range to a 9-20 crit range (Disciple of Dispater is funky like that).

Of course, Disciple of Dispater doesn't gain that bonus until 8th level, so you'd need to go Scoundrel 12/Disciple of Dispater 8 not a bad route, but really, becoming the master crit-dazer at level 20 is chump change. The other 3.0 tricks are similarly limited. Weapon Master 7, and so forth. All require pretty heavy investment. I wouldn't worry about it.


Would people prefer if it didn't require a critical threat, but granted immunity to the effect if a creature saves against it?

That might be better. EDIT: Or maybe require some kind of opposed Bluff check instead of a critical threat?