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Mr. Pink
2012-01-05, 03:15 AM
...If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

The current state of affairs for the Order is rather grim. They not only have to attempt to find and ally with a vengeful and paranoid epic level illusionist, but also reach the gate before either Xykon and co. or the linear guild(supplanted with two epic level and unbelievably genre-savvy dictators, as well as contact with IFCC). In addition to the resources at the linear guild's fingertips they also have Tarquin's knowledge about storytelling, genre, and characters that rivals TV tropes in its clarity and usefulness, and a staggering amount of popularity.

The Order needs the cavalry to arrive, and I am making an official GIANTITP forums guarantee (sloppy guesswork mostly) that Julio Scoundrel, Pirate Captain and Renowned Ladies Man will arrive to save elan and do battle with Tarquin before being slain as elan swears revenge as he cradles his limp body in his arms. He is the only character savvy and dashing enough to outwit Tarquin.

So far the tarquin plot shows a strong inclining towards star wars with dozens of references with even physical resemblances (Tarquin being a powerful dictator in black armor allied with a sallow pale-skinned magician in black robes. Julio on the other hand is all the charm of Han Solo and the wisdom of Ben-Kenobi.

Either that or all of team evil is secretly cats

Klear
2012-01-05, 05:15 AM
The Order needs the cavalry to arrive, and I am making an official GIANTITP forums guarantee (sloppy guesswork mostly) that Julio Scoundrel, Pirate Captain and Renowned Ladies Man will arrive to save elan and do battle with Tarquin before being slain as elan swears revenge as he cradles his limp body in his arms. He is the only character savvy and dashing enough to outwit Tarquin.

I think Scoundrél is genre savvy enough not to do anything remotely similar to that. It would be a suicide.

_Jarlaxle_
2012-01-05, 05:54 AM
(supplanted with two epic level and unbelievably genre-savvy dictators, as well as contact with IFCC).
There is no evidence that they are epic level and I really doubt they are...

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-05, 07:20 AM
I think Scoundrél is genre savvy enough not to do anything remotely similar to that. It would be a suicide.
Indeed, he said as much.

Dragonus45
2012-01-05, 07:38 AM
Indeed, he said as much.

Thats why it must happen, if Julio doesn't show up it will defy conventions. Its like shave and a haircut. Once a toon hears it the HAVE to respond.

Bastian Weaver
2012-01-05, 07:43 AM
I agree that if we see Captain Scoundrel again, it would probably involve a duel with Tarquin. I also agree that this is precisely why Captain Scoundrel would do anything to avoid such a situation.
Captain is no fool.

Talyn
2012-01-05, 07:59 AM
When have we heard that Tarquin and Malack are epic level? I'm pretty sure, by their own admission, they are roughly the same level as the PCs - which is pretty convenient, if you think about it.

Incidentally, to keep the Star Wars parallels going, I'm pretty sure Malack is going to be the one to change sides at the last second, because he's NOT "getting over" the murder of his children, no matter who tells him to, and, faced with a choice of either a) fighting and killing Durkon, a friend with whom he has much in common and a great deal of mutual respect, and b) turning on Nale, I wouldn't be surprised if he picked option B.

Morthis
2012-01-05, 08:27 AM
Why do you think Tarquin is epic level? Epic level characters are supposed to be pretty darn rare, and with the resources Tarkin has available, there's really no reason he needs to be epic level to present a challenge to the oots.

Who149
2012-01-05, 09:09 AM
Tarquin is a high enough level to be a end campaign Boss Duel, a Boss who is to be fought by one member of the order, Elan is this case.

That being said, it would be expected for him to be higher level, but not Epic. Possibly if we assume the Order is around level 12ish, that he would be 15-18 possibly.

He'd be easy enough for the entire order to take, but he'd be a challang in a team.

SamBurke
2012-01-05, 09:18 AM
I think Scoundrél is genre savvy enough not to do anything remotely similar to that. It would be a suicide.

Yes, yes he is.

That's precisely why his return would be intense for him and his character; it represents a sacrifice.

Besides, think of the humor you could get out of it.

Morthis
2012-01-05, 09:23 AM
Tarquin is a high enough level to be a end campaign Boss Duel, a Boss who is to be fought by one member of the order, Elan is this case.

That being said, it would be expected for him to be higher level, but not Epic. Possibly if we assume the Order is around level 12ish, that he would be 15-18 possibly.

He'd be easy enough for the entire order to take, but he'd be a challang in a team.

The order is higher than 12, except possibly Roy due to his time spent dead and the level lost from dying.

V has power word stun, which is 8th level (so level 15 minimum), and Durkon has at least 7th level spells (Holy word) so level 13, but probably higher. Level 15 seems more likely for most of them right now.

Who149
2012-01-05, 09:33 AM
The order is higher than 12, except possibly Roy due to his time spent dead and the level lost from dying.

V has power word stun, which is 8th level (so level 15 minimum), and Durkon has at least 7th level spells (Holy word) so level 13, but probably higher. Level 15 seems more likely for most of them right now.

Then level 18-ish? Possibly 20. He would be a slightly higher level then the order.

However, regardless of his level, Julio Scoundrel would die in a fight, to give Elan more insensitive to fight and kill his father. And Julio knows it, he won't show unless he feels he realllly has too due to drama.

Morthis
2012-01-05, 10:03 AM
Then level 18-ish? Possibly 20. He would be a slightly higher level then the order.

However, regardless of his level, Julio Scoundrel would die in a fight, to give Elan more insensitive to fight and kill his father. And Julio knows it, he won't show unless he feels he realllly has too due to drama.

The real question is why would he bother? He obviously told Elan before he hopes to never see him again, and while he did help Elan, he didn't seem that invested in it. Why would he kill himself for Elan's sake? For that matter, how would it fit into the story? Characters dying can be a great way to add some drama or tension to a story, but killing off a minor character that's been in like 5 comics total for the final climax of Elan vs Tarquin is just plain silly. That's no different than introducing a red shirt guy and killing him in the same episode just for the sake of making it look like there's danger.

Kish
2012-01-05, 10:15 AM
I see no reason to believe Tarquin is even higher-level than the Order.

Howler Dagger
2012-01-05, 10:25 AM
If I understand you, you think a character who has stated himself that he will never come back due to genre saviness will come back due to genre saviness to fight the one person he knew he would die fighting against due to genre savviness?

eusticepious
2012-01-05, 05:04 PM
I see no reason to believe Tarquin is even higher-level than the Order.

Kish, Tarquin claimed recently, here (panel 1) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html), that he is higher level than Roy. Tarquin's belief that he is higher level counts as a reason to believe he actually is higher level where I come from.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-05, 05:09 PM
Kish, Tarquin claimed recently, here (panel 1) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html), that he is higher level than Roy. Tarquin's belief that he is higher level counts as a reason to believe he actually is higher level where I come from.Roy is not the entire Order, though. If Haley is the highest level member of the OOTS (which is quite likely), and Tarquin is equal level to Haley, both Kish and T's statements are true.

skaddix
2012-01-05, 05:11 PM
Tarq is a Boss so I gotta assume higher. Most likely high teens or low twenties.

Order should be around 15 at this point for the most part.

Jaros
2012-01-05, 05:59 PM
If I understand you, you think a character who has stated himself that he will never come back due to genre saviness will come back due to genre saviness to fight the one person he knew he would die fighting against due to genre savviness?

Just because he comes back into the story doesn't mean he does so willingly.

Having said that, I'm not convinced he will necessarily return, but just sayin'

ti'esar
2012-01-05, 07:33 PM
I'd like to take the moment to point out that, despite what everyone has been saying, this arc has not been filled with Star Wars references. There was 723 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html), of course, but after that, the only other reference was 724 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), which 1) took place the very next strip and 2) was a (highly unsuccessful) attempt to "cash in" on the references in-universe. Besides that, there's been nothing, and the Giant has even gone on record as saying that Tarquin and Malack are not named after Star Wars characters at all.

None of this actually means that it's impossible for Julio Scoundrél to return. There's been theories advanced that he may have some past history with Tarquin, based on their shared genre-savvy and the fact that the latter claims to have pun-dueled before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html). And if Scoundrél is ever returning, I think this is the arc for it. I just think people should stop suggesting that it or any other twist would happen "because of the Star Wars theme" when that theme doesn't really exist.

Bastian Weaver
2012-01-05, 07:47 PM
I disagree. There was also a reference with Tarquin's note saying "Pray that I don't alter it any further", don't you remember?

Thaxan
2012-01-05, 07:53 PM
Based on what he said to Elan, this is my theory on the subject:

Julio will show up, see Elan, realize what's happening, then end up being drawn into a duel to the death against Tarquin, while Elan is forced to watch through one of Malack's Blade Barriers.

SowZ
2012-01-05, 07:56 PM
Then level 18-ish? Possibly 20. He would be a slightly higher level then the order.

However, regardless of his level, Julio Scoundrel would die in a fight, to give Elan more insensitive to fight and kill his father. And Julio knows it, he won't show unless he feels he realllly has too due to drama.

But Julio doesn't seem as caught up in dramatic convention ss Elan, anyway. Besides, the whole 'dying mentor joke' has already been made. I don't see extra humor in showing us it happen as opposed to stating it.

Morthis
2012-01-05, 08:47 PM
If Julio will show up during this, he needs more exposure first really. There is no drama in killing off a character that we barely know in the first place. When Therkla died, we saw how she fell in love with Elan and really struggled with the conflict in interests between what Kubota wanted and what Elan wanted. You get to know something about the character, you sort of feel sorry for her, and then the betrayal and the way she died had meaning. If we get a comic with Julio showing up again, only to die 3 panels later, it'd be completely pointless. Half the readers would probably be like "Who is this guy?" (sure probably not the ones frequenting the forum, but those that only read the comics).

ti'esar
2012-01-05, 09:00 PM
As far as the "Julio would never sacrifice himself for dramatic convention" debate goes - I don't think it's completely out of the question. Julio seems to be getting up there in years, and I think it's conceivable that, if he saw a budding young hero who could become his "replacement", he might just decide to go out furthering the career of the world's next famous swashbuckler.

Does he think that Elan is that hero based on just five strips' worth of interaction, though? I say no.


I disagree. There was also a reference with Tarquin's note saying "Pray that I don't alter it any further", don't you remember?

I did forget about that. But I'd call it a reference to a reference, and regardless, it was nearly 90 strips ago. I don't think this detracts from my overall point that this arc doesn't actually have the "Star Wars theme" people keep saying it does.

Regularguy
2012-01-05, 09:28 PM
Julio on the other hand is all the charm of Han Solo and the wisdom of Ben-Kenobi.

You sure use a lot of words to say "Lando Calrissian."

skaddix
2012-01-05, 09:39 PM
You sure use a lot of words to say "Lando Calrissian."

Yes running a city built on unsavory business does tilt more to Lando.

Psyren
2012-01-06, 02:40 PM
I predict Roy will kill him. It would completely fly in the face of Tarquin's grand design.

The way to truly defeat him would be for him to die in total ignominy. No royal life of excess, no legendarily epic death, no nothing. Just picking a totally unnecessary fight and perishing forgotten in a desert somewhere.

Kish
2012-01-06, 03:27 PM
You sure use a lot of words to say "Lando Calrissian."
Urgh, is this an EU thing?

In the three movies that matter, Lando's greatest display of "wisdom" was realizing that the cartoonish villain who had slammed his nose into "I'm not going to keep my word"
...repeatedly...
wasn't going to keep his word.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-06, 04:08 PM
Tarquin will be killed by Xykon. He'll underestimate him. Then the conversation will go.

:elan:(please pretend this is Tarquin): But you can't defeat me, I'll be a legend.
:xykon:: Here's the thing old man, nobody cares. Sure we all like to think about a legacy but at the end of the day you're dead. People may remember you, they may not. But everyone knows you'll never be great. Because you're dead. Here you are constantly climbing for power. No reason, no motivation, just to fuel your own ego. But one day you start to tangle with a bigger fish than you. And then you realise you've bitten off more than you can chew. That you've been outclassed. I am one of those bigger fishes. Because i don't fight for "destiny" or "my legacy will exceed me" or any such crap. I fight because it's right for me. If you knew what's right for you you'd have stayed playing your life-size Risk. But you didn't you messed with the fabric of the universe, and that's a whole new threat level kid. With threats like me.

I don't think that's exactly how it will play out. But I do think Xykon will hannibal Tarquin.

skaddix
2012-01-06, 04:10 PM
Urgh, is this an EU thing?

In the three movies that matter, Lando's greatest display of "wisdom" was realizing that the cartoonish villain who had slammed his nose into "I'm not going to keep my word"
...repeatedly...
wasn't going to keep his word.

I don't think it took him that long but when dealing with Darth Vader it is always good to play along as long as possible.

Regularguy
2012-01-06, 04:18 PM
In the three movies that matter, Lando's greatest display of "wisdom" was realizing that the cartoonish villain who had slammed his nose into "I'm not going to keep my word"
...repeatedly...
wasn't going to keep his word.

At which point he figured out how to turn the tables, rescuing the majority of our heroes by catching the Imperials unaware. After previously smooth-talking said heroes into that predicament -- because, really, can anyone come up with a less bad way to play it when Darth Vader and the Imperials show up and start making demands, other than amiably cutting a deal and then double-crossing the double-crosser?

And then he infiltrates Jabba's place with the rest of our gang -- he's the one not being held captive -- to rescue Solo before getting promoted to General and leading the mission to blow up the Death Star 2.0. How do you figure he's not Han Solo 2.0?

rewinn
2012-01-06, 04:28 PM
Tarquin will be killed by Xykon. He'll underestimate him. Then the conversation will go.

:elan:(please pretend this is Tarquin): But you can't defeat me, I'll be a legend.
:xykon:: Here's the thing old man, nobody cares. Sure we all like to think about a legacy but at the end of the day you're dead. People may remember you, they may not. But everyone knows you'll never be great. Because you're dead. Here you are constantly climbing for power. No reason, no motivation, just to fuel your own ego. But one day you start to tangle with a bigger fish than you. And then you realise you've bitten off more than you can chew. That you've been outclassed. I am one of those bigger fishes. Because i don't fight for "destiny" or "my legacy will exceed me" or any such crap. I fight because it's right for me. If you knew what's right for you you'd have stayed playing your life-size Risk. But you didn't you messed with the fabric of the universe, and that's a whole new threat level kid. With threats like me.
...Your posting was creative and interesting and I enjoyed it, but I just can't see T underestimating X. T's whole schtick is that he is an extremely successful schemer; he's a great fighter of course but he beat Elan (... not with his axe but with merely a dagger...) without getting a scratch because he knows how. Add that to his having conquered most of his continent ... twice! ... and you get a guy who is not likely to underestimate a socerer-lich who turfed Azure City in a day.

BTW T's easy victory over Elan suggests strongly that he's higher level than any member of the order. Elan's not the strongest fighter but if the levels had been close, he'd have been able at least to scratch T (Future Wife #10 succeeded only by a sufficiently improbable and ineffectual hit that T ignored it.)

Kish
2012-01-06, 04:30 PM
At which point he figured out how to turn the tables, rescuing the majority of our heroes by catching the Imperials unaware. After previously smooth-talking said heroes into that predicament -- because, really, can anyone come up with a less bad way to play it when Darth Vader and the Imperials show up and start making demands, other than amiably cutting a deal and then double-crossing the double-crosser?

Can I come up with something specific and better, as a 21st-century Earth dweller who doesn't know the geography or technology of Cloud City? No. Do I accept the implication that I need to do so to observe "Lando handled that badly, resulting in Han being frozen in carbonite and Luke being on the wrong side of a very one-sided duel"? No. Would I agree that Lando came off well even if I accepted that implication--that being in a position where Darth Vader could suddenly pin him down like a butterfly on a board, with no contingency plans that didn't involve betraying the good guys and nearly getting throttled by an enraged Wookiee, didn't show a lack of wisdom in and of itself? No. And even if the answer to any of those was "yes," he didn't doublecross Vader until Vader made it clear--repeatedly--that he wasn't going to keep his word to Lando.


And then he infiltrates Jabba's place with the rest of our gang -- he's the one not being held captive -- to rescue Solo before getting promoted to General and leading the mission to blow up the Death Star 2.0. How do you figure he's not Han Solo 2.0?
See, now, I actually have no problem with "Lando's wisdom is nearly as good as Han's"; we're talking major Dump Stat territory for both of them. Your initial claim was that Lando combined the charm of Han Solo with the wisdom of Ben Kenobi. Not the charm of Elan and the wisdom of...Elan.

Yendor
2012-01-06, 04:52 PM
BTW T's easy victory over Elan suggests strongly that he's higher level than any member of the order. Elan's not the strongest fighter but if the levels had been close, he'd have been able at least to scratch T (Future Wife #10 succeeded only by a sufficiently improbable and ineffectual hit that T ignored it.)

All Tarquin did in that fight was defend, and make one disarm check. Neither requires him to be particularly high level. With his resources, getting his AC out of Elan's reach should be easy. Even that loser Kubota managed it.

Morthis
2012-01-06, 05:42 PM
BTW T's easy victory over Elan suggests strongly that he's higher level than any member of the order. Elan's not the strongest fighter but if the levels had been close, he'd have been able at least to scratch T (Future Wife #10 succeeded only by a sufficiently improbable and ineffectual hit that T ignored it.)

He was able to counter Elan's puns, and without those bonuses, Elan has always been a terrible fighter. A level 5 fighter could beat Elan before his dashing swordsman class.

Regularguy
2012-01-06, 05:43 PM
See, now, I actually have no problem with "Lando's wisdom is nearly as good as Han's"; we're talking major Dump Stat territory for both of them. Your initial claim was that Lando combined the charm of Han Solo with the wisdom of Ben Kenobi. Not the charm of Elan and the wisdom of...Elan.

What does General Kenobi actually do that's so wise, compared to General Calrissian? Start crying when the guy who was obviously going to go bad goes bad? (You could argue that it's better to howl "You were supposed to be the chosen one" instead of "This deal keeps getting worse," but I think you'd be wrong; remember that Kenobi's remark is followed by foolishly leaving Anakin alive, while Lando's is followed by swinging into action.)

Concluding that there's a single last hope, only to get corrected when Yoda patiently reminds him that, no, there is another? Of course not; Lando's the guy who figures out that IT'S A TRAP before anyone else, and promptly thinks up a never-been-tried tactic that lets the rebel fleet best engage the bad guys until the forcefield comes down.

Hiding out on Tatooine by dressing the same and using the same last name as before? Lando goes undercover a heck of a lot more cleverly than that in Jabba's place. How about getting forced into a rematch with Vader, only to get cut down -- supposedly to help our heroes escape, except that was the bad guy's plan all along, so the homing beacon can ferret out the location of the rebel base? Well, no; for one thing, Lando is savvy enough to leave the Vader-fighting to folks who can survive it -- sure as he never once figures that 'only stormtroopers are so precise,' since he knows he's got folks on his payroll who can get the drop on stormtroopers for the win -- and so Lando lives to help our heroes escape, this time mercifully free of any tracking devices.

(I'll admit that Obi-Wan helped from beyond the grave by coaching someone else on how to blow up the first Death Star; I'll add that Lando simply did it himself against the second one, since he knows what to do and can stay alive to do it.)

So what does Kenobi really have going for him, other than spending maybe twenty years living like a hermit in the desert back when Lando was angling to live like a baron in the clouds? Help me out, here.

Kish
2012-01-06, 06:01 PM
What does General Kenobi actually do that's so wise, compared to General Calrissian? Start crying when the guy who was obviously going to go bad goes bad?

I'm sorry, you are apparently now under the impression that there were more than three movies, which means I can't respond to anything you're saying here.

bobthe6th
2012-01-06, 06:51 PM
I'm sorry, you are apparently now under the impression that there were more than three movies, which means I can't respond to anything you're saying here.

so... the fact he or she has more data points make him incorrect? or is it the fact you want to avoid mention of the other three movies forcing you to ignore a comment to the subject? even limiting to 4-6 there are valid points.

SowZ
2012-01-06, 07:59 PM
so... the fact he or she has more data points make him incorrect? or is it the fact you want to avoid mention of the other three movies forcing you to ignore a comment to the subject? even limiting to 4-6 there are valid points.

Ben's wisdom in the prequels is irrelevant to how wise he is in the originals. People get wiser as they age. Anyway, it is tough to say what was wise about Ben's character in the prequels because it is tough to say anything about anyone's character in the prequels. Nobody had one. I think it is fair to judge Ben soley by the originals.

Regularguy, I think you have sufficiently argued that Lando was more intelligent than Ben. But not necessarily wiser. Ben had a deeper understanding of the universe and human behavior and morality and the force than Lando.

ti'esar
2012-01-06, 08:27 PM
As silly as all this is, I can at least understand how it became the subject of discussion. But where in the world did the debate on Tarquin's ultimate fate that recently occurred come from? It had virtually nothing to do with the thread.

And yes, "wise" and "Lando" are not two words I expected to see together.

Procyonpi
2012-01-07, 12:23 AM
Tarq is a Boss so I gotta assume higher. Most likely high teens or low twenties.

Order should be around 15 at this point for the most part.

OoTS is not a DnD campaign or a video game. It's a story set in a 3.5 DnD world. Things don't have to be balanced to game conventions. We don't even know that Tarquin's role, in the end, will be to fight the order, or that it will be climactic in any way, although the former looks likely.

turkishproverb
2012-01-07, 03:42 AM
Thats why it must happen, if Julio doesn't show up it will defy conventions. Its like shave and a haircut.

TWOOOO BIIITS.

Ehem....you were saying?


Once a toon hears it the HAVE to respond.
Noone likes a smart alack.

eusticepious
2012-01-07, 12:52 PM
My hunch with Tarquin is that he is to evil what Miko was to good. He says himself the alignments are not in depth enough for his tastes. I think the way Miko, in trying to do good, aided true evil (Xykon/RC), Tarquin in trying to do evil will end up aiding the Order of the Stick. Just a hunch, take it for all its worth.

mrmcfatty
2012-01-08, 03:25 AM
so... the fact he or she has more data points make him incorrect? or is it the fact you want to avoid mention of the other three movies forcing you to ignore a comment to the subject? even limiting to 4-6 there are valid points.

most people that consider themselves "true" star wars fans admit that the prequels sucked. kish, like many others like him, are just stating that anything said in the first three movies shouldnt be counted because they arent part of the "real" star wars.

ever since they came out many people have disliked the prequels, i just learned a long time ago that if the movie has a sequel that wasnt planned from the beginning or was made several years later to assume that it will be sub-par.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-08, 05:27 PM
My hunch with Tarquin is that he is to evil what Miko was to good. He says himself the alignments are not in depth enough for his tastes. I think the way Miko, in trying to do good, aided true evil (Xykon/RC), Tarquin in trying to do evil will end up aiding the Order of the Stick. Just a hunch, take it for all its worth.

I believe you! That makes perfect sense. I have consistently said Tarquin was the opposite of Miko as she was lawful good yet an antagonist, and he's a complete monster, yet an ally of the party. Miko started off aggressive, there were signs that she'd get better, than she stuck to her guns and her old ways. Then she had a breakdown and caused the one of the greatest "nice job breaking it hero" moments of history.

Tarquin was friendly, then he was a complete monster, then friendly. Now he's an antagonist again. My prediction? He'll get a hannibal from Xykon, breakdown by doing something big (what's on the same level as killing Shojo?) and finally he'll perform one of the biggest "nice job fixing it villain" moments in history.

I'll be keeping an eye out.

Cornelius Grim
2012-01-08, 06:19 PM
Then she had a breakdown and caused the one of the greatest "nice job breaking it hero" moments of history.

Was that a Portal reference in there? :smallwink:

All references aside, I think that it's at least a possibility worth considering that Julio might come back in. However, if he does, there will be some kind of dramatic build up. As stated before, it wouldn't be good at all if he came in only to die three panels later. I know I wouldn't be satisfied with that. I'm sure the Giant will pull it off nicely if he does decide to do it. :smallsmile:

Also, you guys should stop with the Star Wars debate. Granted, I can see how that topic got into this discussion, it's not really addressing the issue at hand...

dtilque
2012-01-09, 01:00 AM
most people that consider themselves "true" star wars fans admit that the prequels sucked. kish, like many others like him, are just stating that anything said in the first three movies shouldnt be counted because they arent part of the "real" star wars.
It's not uncommon for a well-liked movie, book, game, etc. to have a sequel that really sucks. There's a practice among some people to pretend such sequels were never made. "Maybe it was released in your universe but not in mine." that sort of thing. The standard example (or at least the one I see the most) is Highlander.

Obviously Kish is one of these people.

Jaros
2012-01-09, 01:48 AM
To be fair, it's not like 'the prequels don't count' is a rare position.

Leolo
2012-01-09, 03:03 AM
BTW T's easy victory over Elan suggests strongly that he's higher level than any member of the order. Elan's not the strongest fighter but if the levels had been close, he'd have been able at least to scratch T (Future Wife #10 succeeded only by a sufficiently improbable and ineffectual hit that T ignored it.)

Well, it is Elan.

He doesn't use his magic, or any bard ability. Not even inspire courage or something like that. He fights more like a fighter, with just some puns for bonus damage. In fact i don't remember him casting any combat relevant spell anytime.

Tarquin might be a higher level villian, but there is no need for him to be it as long as Elan simple does not use what he have. It is part of the joke. Part of the "this is an incompetent but lovely character" theme.

As most of the characters Elan will evolve further, and a duell with Tarquin might be the best moment for it. Not a pun duell, a real one. Where he starts to use his options. Therefore i doubt that anyone will kill Tarquin other than Elan. Or that Tarquin will have an climatic fight before this. I mean: What's the point of a climatic fight if you know who will win?

tcrudisi
2012-01-09, 03:25 AM
The real question is why would he bother? He obviously told Elan before he hopes to never see him again, and while he did help Elan, he didn't seem that invested in it. Why would he kill himself for Elan's sake? For that matter, how would it fit into the story? Characters dying can be a great way to add some drama or tension to a story, but killing off a minor character that's been in like 5 comics total for the final climax of Elan vs Tarquin is just plain silly. That's no different than introducing a red shirt guy and killing him in the same episode just for the sake of making it look like there's danger.

I agree. That's why I think that if the OP was correct, it's because Julio is a friend/relative of the illusionist they are looking for (name escapes me at the moment). Then the OotS shows up, Julio notices Elan, goes "oh crap", we get a few more pages of Julio's awesomeness, then he dies saving Elan. (I don't think it will happen - but it's a way to bridge the gap between those two divergent ideas).

Sunken Valley
2012-01-09, 06:42 AM
Was that a Portal reference in there? :smallwink:

Close. Tv tropes. Which was in turn a Portal reference.

Alagaesian
2012-01-09, 10:41 AM
Why does everyone assume Julio will show up? Yes, Star Wars theme and all that...but if he does show up, everyone knows he's going to die. Rich prefers unpredictable plot twists to overused, expected cliche.

And here's another thing I don't get: a lot of people assume Julio is somehow Tarquin's only match in genre-savviness. If there's anyone who's Tarquin's equal in that respect, it's Elan. The only real difference between the two of them (aside from alignment) is that Tarquin has the intelligence to exploit the storytelling conventions on a regular basis.

Something tells me Elan's first reaction to seeing his father show up at the Gate is concern. Tarquin should be safe as long as he stays within a plotline where he's the biggest fish. Unfortunately, he's gotten himself involved in a plot where there's a fish named Xykon with epic-level spell slots.

King of Nowere
2012-01-09, 12:33 PM
I don't understand why everyone assumes Julio would be so worried about death when he surely has the resources to arrange for a resurrection after.
Rich complained in some commentary that resurrection is bad for a story because it kills the tension of the characters being in danger; while this can be true, I think it also allows to tell stories that could not be told otherwise. Like the story of a guy who nonchalantly goes to die planning to come back.
Plus, I think a threath to the whole world would be enough to persuade julio to sacrifice himself. He's shown selflessness in SSDT after all.

Anyway, I don't think Julio will show up. Would feel like a deus ex machina and wouldn't make much sense in the story, at least when told this way.

I see more likely that Xykon will show up, now that the phylactery is rescued. We have no proof Tarquin is much higher than the order, but we also have no proof he is not strong enough to be a match for Xykon. In fact, if they were close in levels, with Tarquin's strategy and wit and resources, and with Xykon's build and items being focused on figthing casters, I would put my money on Tarquin, tier difference notwhitstanding.

Otherwise, there wil be some great confrontation involving only the oots and Tarquin's group. Or maybe the draketooths will come into play; Girard may or may not be still alive, and his relatives may or may not be epic level or high level. Anyway, with so many possibilities, I wouldn't put an appearence of Julio in the top ten of the most likely.

Kish
2012-01-09, 01:23 PM
In fact, if they were close in levels, with Tarquin's strategy and wit and resources, and with Xykon's build and items being focused on figthing casters, I would put my money on Tarquin, tier difference notwhitstanding.
How much money would that be?

(Oh, darn, you said "if.")

eusticepious
2012-01-09, 02:22 PM
I believe you! That makes perfect sense. I have consistently said Tarquin was the opposite of Miko as she was lawful good yet an antagonist, and he's a complete monster, yet an ally of the party. Miko started off aggressive, there were signs that she'd get better, than she stuck to her guns and her old ways. Then she had a breakdown and caused the one of the greatest "nice job breaking it hero" moments of history.

Tarquin was friendly, then he was a complete monster, then friendly. Now he's an antagonist again. My prediction? He'll get a hannibal from Xykon, breakdown by doing something big (what's on the same level as killing Shojo?) and finally he'll perform one of the biggest "nice job fixing it villain" moments in history.

I'll be keeping an eye out.

Wow! What fun! Thank you, SunkenValley, for the reply. I did not know you had been saying it for some time. I probably read it (or saw it hinted at) in one of your postings. Credit to you for thinking of it. Thank you for the nice reply to my post, and citing support for the theory! So much fun!

Morthis
2012-01-09, 05:54 PM
I don't understand why everyone assumes Julio would be so worried about death when he surely has the resources to arrange for a resurrection after.
Rich complained in some commentary that resurrection is bad for a story because it kills the tension of the characters being in danger; while this can be true, I think it also allows to tell stories that could not be told otherwise. Like the story of a guy who nonchalantly goes to die planning to come back.
Plus, I think a threath to the whole world would be enough to persuade julio to sacrifice himself. He's shown selflessness in SSDT after all.

It's not really self sacrifice anymore if you have plans to get rezzed 10 seconds later anyway. That's the problem, either his death is real and permanent, in which case the character needs to be developed more for it to be at all meaningful, or he dies and comes back, in which case the death was completely meaningless and just filler. Roy's death mattered because of his experience in the afterlife and the struggle the party went through without him. If Roy had just died fighting Xykon, only to be resurrected the next day, the whole thing would have been completely meaningless.


I see more likely that Xykon will show up, now that the phylactery is rescued. We have no proof Tarquin is much higher than the order, but we also have no proof he is not strong enough to be a match for Xykon. In fact, if they were close in levels, with Tarquin's strategy and wit and resources, and with Xykon's build and items being focused on figthing casters, I would put my money on Tarquin, tier difference notwhitstanding.

This isn't just about tier differences. Sure, even if they were equal level, it's highly highly unlikely he could defeat Xykon. The thing is, Xykon is well into the epic levels and nothing we've seen suggests Tarquin is anything more than mid-high level (heck, we don't even seen any evidence he has to be that high). If Tarquin is, say, level 16, Xykon could sleep through it and still completely demolish him. Roy defeating Xykon the first time around was a stretch already, and has to be explained away by the epic level abjuration killing Xykon, doing this again with Tarquin and without the help of those epic level spells would just be completely unbelievable.

Sunken Valley
2012-01-10, 02:24 AM
Wow! What fun! Thank you for the reply. I did not know you had been saying it for some time. I probably read it (or saw it hinted at) in one of your postings. Credit to you for thinking of it. Thank you for the nice reply to my post, and citing support for the theory! So much fun!

Please say this (or some of this) again but add my name to it. I guarantee immortallity.

In the same sense:

eusticepious, your theory is one of the best I have heard in a long time. You can put that in your signiture.

mrmcfatty
2012-01-10, 08:36 AM
This isn't just about tier differences. Sure, even if they were equal level, it's highly highly unlikely he could defeat Xykon. The thing is, Xykon is well into the epic levels and nothing we've seen suggests Tarquin is anything more than mid-high level (heck, we don't even seen any evidence he has to be that high). If Tarquin is, say, level 16, Xykon could sleep through it and still completely demolish him. Roy defeating Xykon the first time around was a stretch already, and has to be explained away by the epic level abjuration killing Xykon, doing this again with Tarquin and without the help of those epic level spells would just be completely unbelievable.

this may just be because it is early, but the way i am reading that it seems like you are saying "if they were at equal levels xykon would win because he is a higher level." which makes no sense to me, however i am most likely reading that wrong and if so i apologize.

what i think that nowere was saying was if we only took what we know from how they act and Tarquin was the same level as Xykon then T would win because X spells are better suited to take on a wizard and not a fighter type of high level. Plus T would be alot smarter about fighting him than darth V was.

I will say though that i see Tarquin as more of a OoTS level challenge then a TE one.

_Jarlaxle_
2012-01-10, 08:39 AM
I think he means if their tier level would be the same than Xykon would still have a higher character level.



I will say though that i see Tarquin as more of a OoTS level challenge then a TE one.
I aggree

Morthis
2012-01-10, 12:45 PM
this may just be because it is early, but the way i am reading that it seems like you are saying "if they were at equal levels xykon would win because he is a higher level." which makes no sense to me, however i am most likely reading that wrong and if so i apologize.

what i think that nowere was saying was if we only took what we know from how they act and Tarquin was the same level as Xykon then T would win because X spells are better suited to take on a wizard and not a fighter type of high level. Plus T would be alot smarter about fighting him than darth V was.

I will say though that i see Tarquin as more of a OoTS level challenge then a TE one.

My point was basically that the difficulty for Tarquin goes well beyond the mentioned tier difference. A figher doesn't stand much of a chance against a caster normally, that's one challenge Tarquin would need to overcome, but it goes beyond that, there's also a likely level difference. We have absolutely nothing to indicate Tarquin is even close to epic levels, while we know for a fact Xykon is epic level. Combine those two, and there's just no way you can explain Xykon being defeated again without another deus ex machina.