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Kyberwulf
2012-01-08, 10:52 PM
Okay,....

I was thinking about this one recently.
First of.. i apologise for posting ANOTHER vs. Post... but here it goes.

This one takes place before Vecna Acends to godhood.
Voldemort manages to pierce the Plot Armor and slay Harry... and Harry Stays Dead.

So... Assume that both find the road to Godhood. and both want the same power. Who would win if they had to face each other for that power?

Assume that they have access to a loyal base of followers and have full resources to achive the power.

McDougal
2012-01-08, 10:59 PM
Vecna. Cuz' Vecna knows where all the Horcurxes are.

Keeper of secrets, remember? You don't get a domain if you weren't that in life.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-08, 11:01 PM
Hm. Well, let's see. Established god vs. an ill-informed, arrogant terrorist who frankly did such a good job foiling himself all the hero had to do was stand there. I wonder who's going to win this one.

Kyberwulf
2012-01-08, 11:02 PM
ahh..but he isn't a god yet..so no domains

Raistlin1040
2012-01-08, 11:02 PM
D&D Wizards (even without godhood) are much more powerful than Harry Potter Wizards. I'm a bit fuzzy on Vecna history, but if he was already a lich before godhood, Avada Kedavra probably wouldn't even do anything, which makes Voldemort's best spell useless. Vecna could find the Horcruxes if he needed to (assuming Harry didn't destroy most/all of them before dying) with divination spells and I don't think Voldemort would be able to out-think Vecna either.

Voldemort loses a straight up fight (Vecna uses Celerity/Timestop trolling and then whatever spells he wants).
Voldemort loses a stealth battle (Again, without something like Timestop or even Greater Invisibility, Voldemort probably can't do much to sneak up on Vecna, who could sneak up on Voldemort very easily).
Voldemort probably loses a war (Assuming equal numbers of followers, Vecna's wizards are more dangerous than Voldemort's by level 5 due to AoE damage like Fireball or Lightning Bolt).

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-08, 11:15 PM
Yeah, simple fact is, Vecna canonically went on to amongst other things escape Ravenloft, acheive godhood and very nearly re-write almost all of creation to his own design. He even survived having crossed the Lady of Pain.

Canonically, Voldemort blew himself up at the height of his power, took more than a decade to recover, whereupon he promptly lost to a school-child (prodigiously talented or otherwise).

This is a one horse race, even ignoring the massive power disparity between universes.

TheCountAlucard
2012-01-08, 11:17 PM
Every bit of evidence points to the idea that, divinity or no, this is no contest. :smallconfused:

Melayl
2012-01-08, 11:26 PM
Vecna. Hands down. No contest.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-08, 11:27 PM
Vecna. Hands down. No contest.

Hand down.

Raistlin1040
2012-01-08, 11:32 PM
Head down as well, really.

Ravens_cry
2012-01-08, 11:33 PM
Hand down.
Eye see what you did there.:smalltongue:

Coidzor
2012-01-08, 11:39 PM
Regardless of what kind of "I can't stay permanently dead" magic Voldemort's got up, there's still a portion of his soul that's outside of the horcruxes. Vecna can just imprison that portion or destroy it* without actually bothering with the horcruxes. Ahh, thinaun!

Avada Kedavra is unlikely to work on Vecna, given that Vecna is explicitly undead, so unless Avada Kedavra works to destroy ghosts, there's not a whole lot of reason to think it would be effective. On the off chance that it does, there's a chance that Voldy's experience with his own horcruxes would lead him to understanding the concept of a lich's phylactery.

On the other hand, depending upon edition (And I suppose, if we wanted to be more true to the form, he'd probably be an AD&D magic-user wizard lich.), there is a very good chance that Vecna can not only find Voldemort and choose the place of battle but also enact a set-up such that Voldemort is completely blind-sided due to time-manipulating magic and so there would be no opportunity afforded to find out.

*Or turn it into a magic item and then destroy the magic item and then turn the magic item's remains into wood or beef stew or some other substance and destroy that...

Or not technically kill him but scatter him throughout the world's oceans using ye olde flesh to stone to mud then adding water and then purifying the water and then having several creatures drink the water and filter it through their kidneys... One could even repeat that trick through several iterations if one wanted to be pointlessly cruel.

Dumbledore lives
2012-01-08, 11:43 PM
Assuming we're talking about a 3.5 Vecna Voldemort has no chance. Hell past maybe level 5-7 Harry Potter wizards don't really have any chance, especially against optimized wizards. Just a simple invisibility would be a huge asset, since it seems that only decently powerful wizards can do a convincing invisibility spell, and flight is something only seen like once by Voldemort, so aside from a no save instant death spell they have nothing on mid level D&D wizards.

Vecna would presumably be a lich right? That's pretty much game over right there, especially if he has any decent spells, and since he was probably epic before ascending to godhood, yeah, old Voldy has no chance.

Callos_DeTerran
2012-01-08, 11:51 PM
This...isn't much of a fight honestly. Vecna, before ascending to Godhood, would still be a second edition lich (admittedly), but even then he has tricks in his bag that Voldemort simply has no response, the biggest of which is simply being a lich. If Vecna can touch Voldemort, that's end-game, not even considering magic because a lich's touch can/would permanently paralyze Voldemort. No speaking, no movements with the wand, no nothing. One touch.

On the other hand, at an army scale, it becomes a /little/ closer to even...but remember that Vecna had an army too with many powerful entities in it. Voldemort has giants? Vecna has/had devils. Voldemort had werewolves? Vecna had D&D vampires. Voldemort had the dementors? Vecna has armies of emotionless and mindless undead fodder. Voldemort has the death-eaters? Vecna has his mortal minions and Kas.

Kyberwulf
2012-01-09, 12:01 AM
Hmmm.. I know Vecna has it in the power perimaters. I was under the impression that Valdemort was really hard to find... and it would be more of a hunt and hit fight.

Lamech
2012-01-09, 12:07 AM
I think Voldemort's main problem here is HP wizard high degree of non-effectiveness. I mean Accio Vecna's phylactry, followed by smashing it, and then followed up with Accio Vecna's skull, and Accio Vecna's spine in different areas should fairly well kill him. Cast everything behind anti-muggle wards even. So I guess this comes down to who uses there magic more ineffectively in the fluff. And I think Voldemort takes that title, hence the winner is Vecna

thubby
2012-01-09, 12:29 AM
worst comes to worst, vecna casts anti-magic sphere and strangles voldimort to death.

dnd magic is also a lot more science and a lot less wonkiness. using things like scrying, teleportation, and stopping time aren't mysterious or finicky to a dnd style universe.

btw, what is vecna's phylactery?

Worira
2012-01-09, 12:32 AM
Hmmm.. I know Vecna has it in the power perimaters. I was under the impression that Valdemort was really hard to find... and it would be more of a hunt and hit fight.

Vecnas are particularly good finders!

Rob Roy
2012-01-09, 12:40 AM
Vecna wins. No contest. IIRC, Vecna broke out of Ravenloft, and then proceeded to enter Sigil, and challenged the Lady of Pain, and he's still alive (kinda).


btw, what is vecna's phylactery?


Wasn't it the Sword of Kas? Not sure where I read that though, so I'm probably wrong.
EDIT
The only kind of even fight involving Vecna I can think of off the top of my head would be Vecna Vs. Azalin, assuming the Dark Powers don't interfere.

Coidzor
2012-01-09, 12:52 AM
Cast everything behind anti-muggle wards even.

Which, ah, mean exactly what to Vecna and his infernal minions?

Do we even know if those have any effect on the harry potter version of zombies?

Lamech
2012-01-09, 01:23 AM
Pretty sure he's a muggle. He can't use a HP Wand, doesn't spontaneously cast spells like a HP wizard does, doesn't have innate magical capabilities and so forth. Sounds like a Muggle to me. DnD magic =! HP magic. Everyone can pull of DnD magic with enough training and intelligence boosting items. HP magic requires the wizard gene, which Vecna obviously lacks.

HP zombies aren't intelligent as far as I know. More like magical constructs made from dead bodies.

Although did dead have immunity to mind effecting in Second edition?

thubby
2012-01-09, 01:48 AM
Although did dead have immunity to mind effecting in Second edition?

better than that, actually. i dont recall the wording exactly, but as written they were immune to illusions and other things of that nature on top of mind effecting.

lamech, your argument cuts both ways. it could be that everyone in the dnd verse would technically have the magic gene. as you pointed out, everyone is capable of magic.
setting that aside, i think we have to assume the magics interact with each other as expected. (meaning dispel magic works on HP items, and HP wards can stop dnd spells)
if we grant that (and if we don't, its just quickdraw to the insta-kill spells) vecna is more than capable of disjunction and other high powered anti-magic

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-09, 01:48 AM
Assuming you are seriously arguing that an undead wizard on the path to godhood constitutes a "muggle" simply because he's a slightly different kind of wizard, Anti-Muggle Wards still don't stop one from dropping a Meteor Swarm on someone behind them. Vecna also made his name ferreting out secrets, lies, and the hidden aspects of magic, which makes him quite likely to find a way through most other known Potterverse wards that Voldemort might hide behind.

And I am positive that Summoning charms don't work on unknown objects in unknown locations, otherwise what the hell was the point of Deathly Hallows?

...don't answer that.

Zaydos
2012-01-09, 01:49 AM
Liches have innate magical abilities (in fact one is an aura of magic so great it scares people); they aren't zombies. As for undead mind-affecting immunities, the tag didn't exist back then and surprisingly enough liches have more immunities to those than mindless zombies (both of which though are vulnerable to Emotion and Fear for example).

Also according to fluff even in 3.X, and especially in the older editions, not just anybody can become a wizard, you have to have a natural talent which is usually hereditary (i.e. a wizard gene). A PC can take levels in wizard with training and Int boosting items because it just happens they had a latent magic gene they didn't know about, that's not the same as "everybody". If in your campaigns random joe off the street can become a master wizard with enough training and Int items that's your game, not the default in the books or the Greyhawk setting (where Vecna is from) both of which assume you have to be gifted.

That and 2nd edition wizards have the ability to use wands (all of them unlike staves and rods; priests on the other hand are not), it's actually listed in the PHB as one of the things they get. HP magic != D&D magic, but magic is still magic and having magic means you aren't a muggle. For example HP zombies are not muggles, nor are animals. The only things affected by anti-muggle wards are non-magical humans. By your definition giants are muggles, they lack innate magical abilities. Vecna isn't human, therefore he isn't a muggle.

Also accio requires a strong visualization of the object to be summoned, limited by range, emotional closeness to the object (hence Harry can accio his broomstick from much further than anything else). The same reason accio horcrux doesn't work (basic rules of the spell) is the same accio phyllactery doesn't work.

I'd love to see Vecna lose because in my opinion he's an annoying villain sue, and his breaking the rules of at least 2 settings says more about a diabolus ex machina to clear the way for a new edition of the game than anything about him being awesome and honestly as a character I like Voldemorte despite his faults better, but Voldemorte doesn't have the tools to beat Vecna.

Coidzor
2012-01-09, 01:50 AM
Pretty sure he's a muggle. He can't use a HP Wand, doesn't spontaneously cast spells like a HP wizard does, doesn't have innate magical capabilities and so forth. Sounds like a Muggle to me. DnD magic =! HP magic. Everyone can pull of DnD magic with enough training and intelligence boosting items. HP magic requires the wizard gene, which Vecna obviously lacks.

Right, because magic isn't actually magic despite accomplishing quite a bit more and more easily.

You have no idea whether he could or could not use a HP wand, nor do you have any idea whether any character truly can learn magic in D&D due to the rules abstraction for making characters.


HP zombies aren't intelligent as far as I know. More like magical constructs made from dead bodies.

Which has what to do with the question that brought them up? Mindless undead in 3.X and as far as I've ever seen, earlier editions as well, are just magical constructs made from dead bodies.

SoC175
2012-01-09, 01:51 AM
I mean Accio Vecna's phylactry, followed by smashing it, and then followed up with Accio Vecna's skull, and Accio Vecna's spine in different areas should fairly well kill him. So why didn't Harry just accio horcruxes to end it?

Also what makes you thingt hat Vecna's body could just be accio'ed piece by piece. I don't remember any HP wizard ever "accio enemy's head" to win a battle.


The main thing is that even before ascending to divinity, even before becoming a lich, Vecna's achievements dwarfed anything that Voldemort ever did.

btw, what is vecna's phylactery?
I think he no longer has one since his ascension.

Arakune
2012-01-09, 01:51 AM
He even survived having crossed the Lady of Pain.

Do you need anything else after this?

Othesemo
2012-01-09, 02:08 AM
Here's how I imagine the fight would go-

Voldemort: Vecna! Prepare to die!
Vecna: Meteor swarm.

DM: Alright, Voldemort has a Dex of 12, and no magic items adding to armor. Since Vecna is a 20th level wizard with a perpetual empowered Cat's Grace on him at all times, he automatically hits. Voldemort doesn't get a saving throw and has to resistance to fire, and thus takes 32d6 damage, for an average of 112. Seeing as he has d4 hitdie and no buffs, magical or otherwise, he dies. Painfully.

thubby
2012-01-09, 02:14 AM
I think he no longer has one since his ascension.

granted, but what was it before then, since thats the vecna we're dealing with

SoC175
2012-01-09, 03:39 AM
granted, but what was it before then, since thats the vecna we're dealing withEven so, destroying it won't help without also being able to destroy Vecna afterwards.

Even pre-ascension, the empire Vecna carved out dwarfs anything Voldemort ever did.

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-09, 05:11 AM
Post-ascension Vecna could beat Voldemort easily.

Pre-ascension Vecna could beat Voldemort easily.

I'm pretty sure that twelve-year-old Vecna could beat Voldemort easily.

Xondoure
2012-01-09, 05:22 AM
So why didn't Harry just accio horcruxes to end it?

Also what makes you thingt hat Vecna's body could just be accio'ed piece by piece. I don't remember any HP wizard ever "accio enemy's head" to win a battle.


The main thing is that even before ascending to divinity, even before becoming a lich, Vecna's achievements dwarfed anything that Voldemort ever did.

I think he no longer has one since his ascension.

Horcruxes have been charmed against summoning charms.

And HP magic is maybe a little more effective than people are giving it credit for. When you're violating natural laws like that there is all sorts of neat tricks you could do to win even if you're opponent has more raw power. That said HP wizards are morons and wouldn't think to use their powers in such a way.

Rhydeble
2012-01-09, 06:15 AM
I'm not sure that meteor swarm would work against voldemort. After all, voldemort DOES use shields, and HP WIZARDS are MORE resistant to physical damage then muggles.
furthermore, in DnD, people can actually survive meteor storms. Avada kedavra is a spell that kills, no save allowed (maybe reflex though, Harry dodges quite a few spells).
And i hardly think it likely Vecna's mother died out of love.

TheCountAlucard
2012-01-09, 06:36 AM
HP WIZARDS are MORE resistant to physical damage then muggles.I have never seen anything to indicate that, ever.

Avada kedavra is a spell that kills, no save allowed (maybe reflex though, Harry dodges quite a few spells).It can be dodged, it can be blocked, and it doesn't autokill constructs, like the statue Dumbledore animated, so anything with an immunity to death effects, LIKE LICHES, should probably be okay.


And i hardly think it likely Vecna's mother died out of love."Oh, man! Dumbledore's mother didn't die out of love! He's SCREWED!"

Fan
2012-01-09, 06:37 AM
I'm not sure that meteor swarm would work against voldemort. After all, voldemort DOES use shields, and HP WIZARDS are MORE resistant to physical damage then muggles.
furthermore, in DnD, people can actually survive meteor storms. Avada kedavra is a spell that kills, no save allowed (maybe reflex though, Harry dodges quite a few spells).
And i hardly think it likely Vecna's mother died out of love.

Vecna is undead, undead in his universe are immune to death effects.

It would pretty much go like this anyways:

Vecna: Celerity + Empowered Timestop, probably immune to stun anyways.
Vecna: Scry + obtain stuff
Vecna: Teleport
Vecna: Delayed Maw of Chaos + delayed Trap the Soul
Voldemort: *timestop ends* *ripped apart by energies of chaos that also stun him, and his soul is ripped out of his body before he has any chance to react*
Vecna to Gem: Problem Voldemort?

thubby
2012-01-09, 06:39 AM
pretty sure a lich would are immune to that.

it doesnt work on animate objects (beings powered by a-typical forces), so i doubt it would effect the negative energy powered lich.

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-09, 06:53 AM
Avada kedavra is a spell that kills, no save allowed (maybe reflex though, Harry dodges quite a few spells).
And i hardly think it likely Vecna's mother died out of love.

It's also the most clear-cut example of a death effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks) you'll ever see. A deadly tool in Wizarding Britain, but an epic-level Vancian is not going to be unduly bothered ([URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm).

And an epic-level Vancian who happens to be a lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType), well...

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-09, 06:58 AM
I have never seen anything to indicate that, ever.

Quidditch.

Not that it actually matters, mind you. An HP-wizard is more resilient than an average person, but so is a first-level fighter. Neither one is going to inconvenience Vecna.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 07:08 AM
I think one of Voldemort's biggest failings is that hes woefully incompetent...

He surrounds himself with incompetents...
...he let his rivalry with Harry get 'personal' even though he himself knew it was all just luck and people willing to die for the boy who lived...
...he got taken out essentially by a failed Sense Motive/Intelligence Check...


Essentially, Vecna could go, "Hi! Take your best shot!"
And has a ring of spell-turning, and the idiot will go ahead and cast.

TheCountAlucard
2012-01-09, 08:06 AM
Quidditch....nope, still not seeing it.

Just evidence that J.K. Rowling is really bad at coming up with games and sports.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-09, 08:29 AM
This is an absolute mismatch, even just going by the standards of the universes, independant of power level and looking at comparative world impact.

Voldemorte was a powerful dark wizard, but arguably not even the most powerful or terrible in living memory (Grindlewald was heavily implied to be behind WWII, which killed far more people that Voldemorte's campaigns, confined to England, did.)

Vecna is arguably the single most powerful Lich in D&D mythos, who BEFORE becoming a god, did half-a-dozen things that were impossible in his universe (probably the most impressive blasting his way out of Ravenloft, which was before his ascendancy, seeing as that was part of what made his ascention (in order to get into Sigil, of course, he wasn't a deity at time of entrance)), to whom the VOICE OF MAGIC ITSELF spoke to (somehow) and who ruled a massive empire, as I recall, and managed to be a threat on a planar scale; which is more than either Voldeemort or Grindlewald appeared to manage.

And both HP wizards arguably had it easier, since they had access to advanced technology, a resource which they both ignored. (Can you imagine Vecna, in Grindlewald's position not using, say the Luffewaffe and magically turning a few squadrons into ME109 +5s? With vehicular stoneskin? Or teleport-nicking the American's nukes - because he would find out about them, intelligence and recon being kinda his strongpoint, lord of secrets and all..!)

This is also leaving aside the fact he's a Lich (because, let's be fair, Voldemorte is technically a sort of Lich variant himself, is he not: Horcrux == Phylactery in broad terms) and leaving aside the fact the power levels of the universes are vastly disparate. High-level pre-Epic PCs are well into the superhero power category, let alone Epic-level wizards, and their capabilities are well beyond what the low-powered, magic-prevalent HP world are. (You're effectively putting Horatio Caine, awesome though he is, against something like Superman, if that isn't exaggerating a little bit.)

Avilan the Grey
2012-01-09, 08:31 AM
...nope, still not seeing it.

So... you never saw the movies?

TheCountAlucard
2012-01-09, 08:33 AM
So... you never saw the movies?Sure I did. Even read the books. Your point?

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 08:58 AM
So... you never saw the movies?
The fact that wizards play Quidditch is proof they're more resilient than Muggles?
When they wear padding? Have had broken bones, terrible falls and have only come short of being killed by Bludgers?

Even if that was a plausible argument, how does that save Voldemort, who won't have Bludgers thrown at him, but more likely a Quickened Disentegrate? What happens if Vecna uses Timestop? Or starts a Celerity chain?

Quidditch?
=P

Avilan the Grey
2012-01-09, 09:06 AM
Sure I did. Even read the books. Your point?


The fact that wizards play Quidditch is proof they're more resilient than Muggles?
When they wear padding? Have had broken bones, terrible falls and have only come short of being killed by Bludgers?

Yes, because they take far more of a beating than any normal human would survive. And well... survive.

TheCountAlucard
2012-01-09, 09:09 AM
Yes, because they take far more of a beating than any normal human would survive. And well... survive.Having one's arm broken? Survivable. Falling from a great height? It's been done.

Quidditch proves nothing with regard to survivability - it just shows that Rowling isn't that good at coming up with sports.

Acanous
2012-01-09, 09:09 AM
There's a line in the first book when Quidditch is being introduced. One of the students falls off his broom and hits the ground, but he's fine. Teacher explains that wizards are considerably tougher than muggles, especially when hitting the ground from a fall.

That won't save Voldemort, though. I seriously doubt Vecna's going to go with the old Reverse Gravity trick.

Looking at it as objectively as possible, Voldemort could survive a while against Vecna. His servants ARE more loyal and afraid of him (Voldemort never had an underling challenge him, Vecna lost a hand and eye to Kas) and Voldy has quite a few Horcruxes hidden around. The battle, unlike MOST DnD Wizard VS battles, would take a few days. Vecna wins, but Voldemort gets honorable mention.

Also, I recall reading somewhere or other that Adavera Kedavera "Can't be stopped or withstood, only dodged". That implies it's actually a ranged touch attack with Save: None and SR: No. Again, this doesn't matter to Vecna.

TheCountAlucard
2012-01-09, 09:11 AM
Teacher explains that wizards are considerably tougher than muggles, especially when hitting the ground from a fall.Cite, please.


Also, I recall reading somewhere or other that Adavera Kedavera "Can't be stopped or withstood, only dodged".Yeah, funny, that, considering an animated statue was able to intercept it. :smallamused:

Devonix
2012-01-09, 09:18 AM
Cite, please.

Yeah, funny, that, considering an animated statue was able to intercept it. :smallamused:

I think that he's counting it hitting something else as it being dodged which it sort of is. Though you're only dodging it by having something else block it

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 09:27 AM
Yes, because they take far more of a beating than any normal human would survive. And well... survive.
Not proof.


There's a line in the first book when Quidditch is being introduced. One of the students falls off his broom and hits the ground, but he's fine. Teacher explains that wizards are considerably tougher than muggles, especially when hitting the ground from a fall.
THIS is proof.


His servants ARE more loyal and afraid of him (Voldemort never had an underling challenge him, Vecna lost a hand and eye to Kas) and Voldy has quite a few Horcruxes hidden around.
Uhmmm, I'm pretty sure Kas could kill Voldemort too, so that's not very objective.
Vecna has access to the full range of D&D wizard spells from levels 0 to 9, as well as epic-level casting and divine ranks...
...he's a god.
A GOD.


Also, I recall reading somewhere or other that Adavera Kedavera "Can't be stopped or withstood, only dodged". That implies it's actually a ranged touch attack with Save: None and SR: No. Again, this doesn't matter to Vecna.
See above.
And I distinctly remember a major plot point being the Avada Kedvra being stopped by a mother's love...
...and being reflected by twin cores...

Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.
Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking.
Congratulations, Voldemort's most potent spell is useless.
Even if he wins Initiative he can't get past the fact that he's nowhere on the level of god-slaying.
Vecna has the immunities of a lich compounded with those of a god, like spell-resistance and divine immunities.
He could literally grapple Voldemort, and with high enough checks, spoil his spellcasting, unless of course Voldemort took ranks in Escape Artist earning from wrestling at Hogw-oh yeah, Voldemort is hardly a great example of physical ability; we don't even know if he played Quidditch!

TheCountAlucard
2012-01-09, 09:28 AM
Just saying, for something that's supposed to be undodgeable and unblockable, Avada Kedavra is pretty dodgeable and blockable. :smallconfused:


THIS is proof.Not quite... I've asked for a citation; before that happens, I won't accept it as proof.

Or should it count as proof if I say, "I'm pretty sure that in the He-Man movie, there was a bit where He-Man turned to face the screen and said, "I can totally take Voldemort in a fight," without backing it up whatsoever?

Also, people, please stop spelling Voldemort with an "e" at the end. :smallannoyed:

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 09:33 AM
Aren't Rowling's wizards technically just sorcerers with enough flaws and variants piled on to require wand use to be effective? Like sorcerors with holy symbols-like a cleric they're almost useless without it...

...Rowling's wizards hardly manages to measure up to fantasy's traditional stance on them...
...I wonder if what Rowling did to wizards inspired Meyer to go on with vampires?


Or should it count as proof if I say, "I'm pretty sure that in the He-Man movie, there was a bit where He-Man turned to face the screen and said, "I can totally take Voldemort in a fight," without backing it up whatsoever?True, actually reading the page would be nice.
I think its when they first learn to use broomsticks.

Melayl
2012-01-09, 09:43 AM
Quidditch is no more dangerous than football (american), rugby, hockey, lacross, or any other real-life contact sport.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 09:46 AM
Idunno, Bludgers, high-speed and the heights, as well as magic would seem to make it more dangerous; though wizard have probably adapted to reduce lethality, like on-the-spot healing.

Coidzor
2012-01-09, 10:24 AM
Just saying, for something that's supposed to be undodgeable and unblockable, Avada Kedavra is pretty dodgeable and blockable. :smallconfused:

I must admit, until today, I hadn't heard of anyone claiming it wasn't dodgeable or blockable, just that magic-on-magic didn't work to repel or counter it. Why no one developed a, make pillar of earth just so really quickly spell, well, as has been stated, Rowling's wizards are a bit thick.


Not quite... I've asked for a citation; before that happens, I won't accept it as proof.

I'm wracking my brain to remember anything like that. I recall Neville possibly being lifted up and falling, but nothing about extraordinary toughness, just what appeared to be an example of stereotypical British Boarding Schools' disregard for the health, sanity, or well-being of their charges.


Also, people, please stop spelling Voldemort with an "e" at the end. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, not quite getting that. I admit, it would be marginally more frenchish, but Mort is just fine, it's the Volde that's worrisome. Because that's a bit odd to mix languages like that to say vole of death... and still leave off a letter...

nyarlathotep
2012-01-09, 10:28 AM
HP wizards are not in D&D terms wizards they don't have spell slots and have only very rarely demonstrated the ability to run out of magic juice as it were. This would imply that they are warlocks or euridites (those are the psionic guys that can learn powers from scrolls right?) with a lot of powerpoints. That being said if they were euridites then they would have very very bad power lists available to them.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-09, 10:42 AM
Also, people, please stop spelling Voldemort with an "e" at the end. :smallannoyed:

*slaps wrist*

Sorry, I don't know when or why I got it into my head it's spelled that way. Sometimes I remember and correct myself, but I'm not very with it today...

Lamech
2012-01-09, 01:05 PM
And I am positive that Summoning charms don't work on unknown objects in unknown locations, otherwise what the hell was the point of Deathly Hallows?

...don't answer that.
Actually it was brought up in the 6th book IIRC. Harry wanted to summon it to him. Dumbledore said it was probably warded against that, but sometimes people are stupid. NOT that summoning charms don't work on unknown objects in unknown locations.



Voldemort: Vecna! Prepare to die!
Vecna: Meteor swarm.
Didn't spells take a minute to cast in 2nd edition?

So wouldn't it be more like
Voldemort: Vecna! Prepare to die!
Vecna: Meteor swarm, Meteor swarm, Meteor swarm
Voldemort: ...
Vecna: Meteor swarm, Meteor Swarm, Meteor Swarm
Voldemort: What are you doing?
Vecna: Meteor swarm, Meteor-
Voldemort: Avada Cadava!
Vecna: *explodes like non-living things do when hit by the killing curse*




Congratulations, Voldemort's most potent spell is useless.It causes explosions against most non-living targets. So instead of killing Vecna and leaving no trace it will kill Vecna and leave no trace (of Vecna).

Once again Vecna is a 2nd edition lich (unless we want to update him to the current edition, but I don't see how 4th edition Vecna could do better.) His spells take a minute. He doesn't have cool things like celerity. If we dropped them unprepared in a room together Voldemort would have exploded Vecna within a couple of seconds.

This comes down to which evil mastermind is actually a bigger moron.
HP wizards can do inane things. Widgets of spell blocking can be bought from a prank store. Secrets can be made undiscoverable. Things can be made larger or duplicated (U-235 anyone?) The list goes on and on. The winner of the fight is the one who is less stupid. I'm guessing Voldemort wins the title of least effective, but I haven't seen the Vecna stuff.

P.S. What plane of existence is the fight on? A battle in Sigil, or earth will significantly limit Vecna's mobility by cutting him off from the Astral plane. A battle not on the prime will remove the Ethereal Plane.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-09, 01:44 PM
Actually it was brought up in the 6th book IIRC. Harry wanted to summon it to him. Dumbledore said it was probably warded against that, but sometimes people are stupid. NOT that summoning charms don't work on unknown objects in unknown locations.

The spell still has an explicitly limited range and objects do not pass through obstacles to get to the summoner. Simply putting his phylactery in a bolted-down box would be enough protection, let alone burying it on another plane of existence underneath an insane number of abjurations like any reasonably intelligent lich would.


Didn't spells take a minute to cast in 2nd edition?
No, that would be completely and totally retarded for a combat spell. I don't have an AD&D book on me, but it can't possibly be more than a full round. Stop citing rules that you have never even read as evidence.


It causes explosions against most non-living targets. So instead of killing Vecna and leaving no trace it will kill Vecna and leave no trace (of Vecna).

It causes explosions against Charmed mundane statuary. There's not really any reason to think an AK spell with impact a human body and explode it, rather than attempt to kill it, which would fail on Vecna even harder than it did on Harry Potter. There's not really any evidence to think it will do either, really, it's an unknown variable.

And another thing - powerful enough Shield charms can intercept AK spells, so basic D&D defense buffs (everything from Shield and Mirror Image and Protection from Evil on up through Displacement and Spell Turning and Spell Immunity) would give Vecna similar levels of protection, to say nothing of simply dropping summons in front of the spells to block them. Even if we assume Vecna should care about Avada Kedavra, he has around twenty times the options for dealing with it that, for example, Dumbledore does.

Mando Knight
2012-01-09, 01:48 PM
No, that would be completely and totally retarded for a combat spell. I don't have an AD&D book on me, but it can't possibly be more than a full round. Stop citing rules that you have never even read as evidence.
Aren't rounds a minute long in AD&D?

Quidditch is no more dangerous than football (american), rugby, hockey, lacross, or any other real-life contact sport.Played fifty feet in the air with homing projectiles. Yeah, real safe.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-09, 01:49 PM
Didn't spells take a minute to cast in 2nd edition?


Meteor Swarm in AD&D had a casting time of 9, which is slightly less than the speed of a two-handed sword (10). It must be remembered that AD&D's round sequence allowed a low number of melee attacks per minute (like, less than one every ten seconds, if you were the greatest swordsmaster in the world).

One should be careful, therefore, in ascribing too much based on that rather dated and flawed timescale, unless you want to argue that all AD&D swordsman are monumentally incompetant (because either they swing a sword at real speeds, and thus should never be in danger from casters, or they are incompetant).

The time between a spell and a sword attack is not actually that different: the same level of abtraction that is applied to only making one (effective) attack in a period of a minute must likewise be applied to spellcasting, in that in the course of a minute, the spellcaster only gets one good opportunity to cast. (You can only cast one spell a minute, under AD&D rules, but this is subtly not the same thing as a spell taking one minute to cast (unless the spell is specifically called out as having a "one round" or more casting time.)

(It's also worth noting that the one-minute-round action sequence is not very well supported by D&D fiction in general (take Dragonlance, for example1); power words, in particular! (Despite even OotS' jab at the silly spellbook page requirements...!))

It's equally debatable whether AK would work on a Lich at all, being as they are explictily immune to death effects; though if not, it would likely be "only" as effective as Disintegrate.

And this assumes, of course, Vecna is daft enough not to have thoroughally scryed Voldemort (unlikely, given his schtick is intelligence-gathering) and prepared accordingly, and then teleport up, invisible, drop a Time Stop and go from there. And/or has not located an item of Magic Resistance, which in AD&D in a unilateral block percentage (none of this here new-fangled SR: No nonsense!2)




1Seriously, please do...!

2Says the Lich who has exclusively played 3.x since it came out...

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 01:51 PM
Didn't spells take a minute to cast in 2nd edition?
No.


It causes explosions against most non-living targets. So instead of killing Vecna and leaving no trace it will kill Vecna and leave no trace (of Vecna).
Vecna is a god. He is immune to death effects.


Once again Vecna is a 2nd edition lich (unless we want to update him to the current edition, but I don't see how 4th edition Vecna could do better.)
Why not? If Voldemort is at his msot powerful, why not Vecna? Vecna helped create 3rd/4th edition with his work at sigil, firmly implanting himself as a GOD.
With divine ranks and immunities in 3.5 that translate to 4th edition.
A GOD.


Aren't rounds a minute long in AD&D?
A round was one minute. what's known as a round in 3.5 were called segments, which were six second each.
Terminology changed.

Once again, Vecna is currently and presently a GOD.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-09, 01:58 PM
Why not? If Voldemort is at his msot powerful, why not Vecna? Vecna helped create 3rd/4th edition with his work at sigil, firmly implanting himself as a GOD.
With divine ranks and immunities in 3.5 that translate to 4th edition.
A GOD.

To be fair, the OP specified that this match would occur before his godhood.

And, as nearly everyone has said, Vecna doesn't NEED to be a god to totally curb-stomp Voldemort, without ever breaking out in condensation on his skull...

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-09, 01:59 PM
The OP did specify "pre-god" Vecna, but still, he's an undead spellcaster with both the magical resources and more importantly the brains to shake up an entire multiversal planar structure. Voldemort is the half-undead Wizard equivalent of some guy mailing anthrax to people who, and I feel I must point this out again, literally defeats himself because he is too dumb to think about his actions for thirty seconds before deciding to kill someone and too lazy to even do the slightest bit of research to support his own "master plan".

Dr.Epic
2012-01-09, 02:00 PM
Vecna wins. Vecna hands down (no pun intended).

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-09, 02:01 PM
Vecna wins. Vecna hands down (no pun intended).

I already did that bit.

The Glyphstone
2012-01-09, 02:01 PM
Once again, Vecna is currently and presently a GOD.

As was said over in the Buffy/Blade thread, a character being a God has close to zero meaning whatsoever on its own merits, because different settings have 'gods' sitting at different power levels. Vecna being a god isn't relevant on its own, it's only relevant in what specific traits D&D godhood gives him (which happen to sum up as 'Voldy Loses'), but the distinction is important.

Ravens_cry
2012-01-09, 02:10 PM
There was other units of game time in AD&D 1st edition. There was the segment, which was 6 seconds, and a greater unit, the turn, which was ten minutes. A spell often took several segments, or longer, but it varied by spell. Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter took two segments, while Melfs Acid Arrow took four, while Mount indeed took 1 round.

nyarlathotep
2012-01-09, 02:13 PM
A round was one minute. what's known as a round in 3.5 were called segments, which were six second each.
Terminology changed.

Once again, Vecna is currently and presently a GOD.

I thought that it was a turn that was a minute and a round that was six seconds. Unless of course that changed between 1st and 2nd edition.

Even so high level spells tended to have a casting time between 1 - 3 rounds, really big environment changing ones like earthquake and disjunction going out to a full turn.

Traab
2012-01-09, 02:15 PM
The OP did specify "pre-god" Vecna, but still, he's an undead spellcaster with both the magical resources and more importantly the brains to shake up an entire multiversal planar structure. Voldemort is the half-undead Wizard equivalent of some guy mailing anthrax to people who, and I feel I must point this out again, literally defeats himself because he is too dumb to think about his actions for thirty seconds before deciding to kill someone and too lazy to even do the slightest bit of research to support his own "master plan".

Yeah, voldemort is a frigging moron.

"Lets see, AK failed against him as a baby. Apparently it failed against him in the woods. Now for our final showdown, what should I use? I KNOW!!! Ill try to use an AK!" Because absolutely no other spell in the harry potter world can cause death. None. Right? Seriously, break out some of that badass dueling magic you used on dumbledoore, that would work because harry is a freaking teenager, not 125 years old and a master of all obscure magic.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-09, 02:23 PM
Torture him to insanity and keep him chained to a post, mind control him into killing himself, mind control one of his friends into killing him, stun him and chuck him off a cliff, slice him in half, teleport him to Antarctica (how many times do I have to kill you, boy?), make Malfoy kill him, ****, go on a trip to America and buy a gun. Anything but spamming something that's already failed three or four times!

Sorry. Voldemort's just got some serious mental blocks that keep me from taking him seriously.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-09, 02:23 PM
I thought that it was a turn that was a minute and a round that was six seconds. Unless of course that changed between 1st and 2nd edition.

Even so high level spells tended to have a casting time between 1 - 3 rounds, really big environment changing ones like earthquake and disjunction going out to a full turn.

Yes, I believe it did change several times, depending on what version you used. (The numbers I quoted earlier were from the AD&D 2nd edition PHB (1989 edition), which is the one I own and used.)

SoC175
2012-01-09, 02:40 PM
HP wizards are not in D&D terms wizards they don't have spell slots and have only very rarely demonstrated the ability to run out of magic juice as it were. This would imply that they are warlocks or euridites (those are the psionic guys that can learn powers from scrolls right?) with a lot of powerpoints. That being said if they were euridites then they would have very very bad power lists available to them.However it's strange that even in lethal fights even deatheaters are throwing around shock spells, but only the occasional avada kedavra. Has it ever explained why they do not only fire avada kedavras and nothing else?

General Patton
2012-01-09, 02:45 PM
However it's strange that even in lethal fights even deatheaters are throwing around shock spells, but only the occasional avada kedavra. Has it ever explained why they do not only fire avada kedavras and nothing else?

I think Voldemort borrowed their entire stock of Avada Kedavras to use against the one who is immune to it. "Silly Voldemort, just because it abbreviates to AK doesn't mean it works like dakka. If it's not working, the answer is not to use more of it."

Lamech
2012-01-09, 02:46 PM
The time between a spell and a sword attack is not actually that different: the same level of abtraction that is applied to only making one (effective) attack in a period of a minute must likewise be applied to spellcasting, in that in the course of a minute, the spellcaster only gets one good opportunity to cast. (You can only cast one spell a minute, under AD&D rules, but this is subtly not the same thing as a spell taking one minute to cast (unless the spell is specifically called out as having a "one round" or more casting time.)
That would work. Except one little problem, I don't think they can't cast any faster in non-combat situations. Like if they've dropped a time stop.

To be fair, since Vecna doesn't go all Tippy-style with his powers he must also be fairly ineffective with them. So again its who fails harder with their abilities.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-09, 02:50 PM
That would work. Except one little problem, I don't think they can't cast any faster in non-combat situations. Like if they've dropped a time stop.

To be fair, since Vecna doesn't go all Tippy-style with his powers he must also be fairly ineffective with them. So again its who fails harder with their abilities.

Did we mention the part where Vecna was, in-universe, responsible for reformatting the universe to 3rd Edition?

And seriously, stop pretending to know the AD&D rules.

Gullintanni
2012-01-09, 02:54 PM
The casting times are fairly irrelevant. As stated earlier, all Vecna really has to do is touch Voldemort and it's all over. Paralysis ensues.

Thanks for playing.

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 03:00 PM
To be fair, since Vecna doesn't go all Tippy-style with his powers he must also be fairly ineffective with them. So again its who fails harder with their abilities.

No. Tippy and optimization are for the most part theory and most part not entering the game ever. The filter of this forum and others that display the obscene power range level is a fine mesh one. Reality is not what you see here on this forum or elsewhere. The fact of the matter is Vecna became a God via magic. Though I will come in and say that Die Vecna Die, where he faces down the Lady of Pain, is widely considered -not- cannon so using it in this argument is fairly moot. Vecna still has a treasure trove of magical items, minions and spells the likes of which the HP world does not have access to. The contest is still a no-contest.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-09, 03:03 PM
I think Voldemort borrowed their entire stock of Avada Kedavras to use against the one who is immune to it. "Silly Voldemort, just because it abbreviates to AK doesn't mean it works like dakka. If it's not working, the answer is not to use more of it."

Isn't one of the definitions of insanity trying the same thing multiple times and expecting a different outcome?



It occurs to me, given that the wizarding world seems at times to be a good century behind in societal behavior, and that Voldemort's age puts him around the interwar-period (a quick google suggests a birthdate in 1926), that Voldy was not actually too far out of line with the appallingly bad leadership abilities often displayed in the colonial to WW2 period (one only has to look at the prevalence of repeated infantry wave attacks in WWI, despite them never working, and the insistance that cavalry was still the supreme weapon in 1914...) Further, comparisions have been drawn with more than one real-world figure of the period in characterisation, all of whom were charismatic leaders but rather less competant in tactical and strategic decision making. In that regard, perhaps Voldemort is a rather realistic characterisation...

Certainly, there have been real world generals and political leaders throughout history, who have been just as mad, just as devastating to those around them and just as incompetant.

Perhaps fittingly, ultimately, Voldemort may well be remembered in the HP universe in much the same way as the likes of Nero or Francisco Solano Lopez of Paraguay (whose disasterous expansionist dreams caused the War of the Triple Alliance in 1864 and resulted in the death of between 50-75% of the entire population of country and 90% of the male adult population) would be - remembered as being responsible for much suffering, but having achived little due to their own failings.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 03:07 PM
To be fair, the OP specified that this match would occur before his godhood.

he OP did specify "pre-god" Vecna, but still, he's an undead spellcaster with both the magical resources and more importantly the brains to shake up an entire multiversal planar structure.


As was said over in the Buffy/Blade thread, a character being a God has close to zero meaning whatsoever on its own merits, because different settings have 'gods' sitting at different power levels. Vecna being a god isn't relevant on its own, it's only relevant in what specific traits D&D godhood gives him (which happen to sum up as 'Voldy Loses'), but the distinction is important.
Fair point.


I thought that it was a turn that was a minute and a round that was six seconds. Unless of course that changed between 1st and 2nd edition.
No, a turn was ten rounds, a round was one minute and a segment was six seconds with ten segments to each round.


Torture him to insanity and keep him chained to a post, mind control him into killing himself, mind control one of his friends into killing him, stun him and chuck him off a cliff, slice him in half, teleport him to Antarctica (how many times do I have to kill you, boy?), make Malfoy kill him, ****, go on a trip to America and buy a gun. Anything but spamming something that's already failed three or four times!


"Lets see, AK failed against him as a baby. Apparently it failed against him in the woods. Now for our final showdown, what should I use? I KNOW!!! Ill try to use an AK!" Because absolutely no other spell in the harry potter world can cause death. None. Right? Seriously, break out some of that badass dueling magic you used on dumbledoore, that would work because harry is a freaking teenager, not 125 years old and a master of all obscure magic.

"Wow, Harry-Snape was working for Dumbledore the whole time? So, that's two more people who died to keep you alive... Huh, well, I control the government, and you don't have the numbers or the skills to hold this school indefinitely, so I'm going to walk away. Yeah, afterall, they died assuming you'd beat me, so I think the best way for me to spit in their, now dead, faces would be not to kill you. After all, you don't have it in you to kill me..."

You know what Vecna has that Voldemort doesn't? Percentages.
Vecna hasn't lost. He's got a 100%.
Kick butt as a human wizard. Check.
Become a lich. Check.
Despite intervention of PCs, become a god and change the fundamental nature of reality in an act that is canon. Check.

Voldemort
Kill an old man who he claims is weaker than him. Not check.
Kill a baby. Not check.
Kill the baby again. Not check.
Alternate form tries to kill the baby again. Not check.
Bring said baby to your turf so you can kill him once more. Not check.
Come to kill him again and face old man who is weaker than you. Not check.
Kill another old man in prison. Check. Finally, a victory.
Kill baby again in a forest without him resisting. Not check.
Kill the boy for the final time. Not check.

The only way Voldemort is going to beat Vecna is if the lich promises not to use his spells or lich abilities and allows himself to be imprisoned.
Or he becomes a minor expendable character.

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 03:25 PM
You know what Vecna has that Voldemort doesn't? Percentages.
Vecna hasn't lost. He's got a 100%.
Kick butt as a human wizard. Check.
Become a lich. Check.
Despite intervention of PCs, become a god and change the fundamental nature of reality in an act that is canon. Check.

What do you mean Vecna never lost? He never took over Oreth...and the last bit is...no. Vecna loses in Vecna Lives which is how he got sent to Ravenloft in the first place.

As for the last bit, it's -speculated- that is the in game explanation but no source outside of Die Vecna Die! ever corroborates such information. It is, at the very least, a fan theory that's never been accepted by the writers of even the original adventure path. No other printed material outside of Die Vecna Die! mentions the Serpent is a complete mystery or doesn't exist.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 03:32 PM
As for the last bit, it's -speculated- that is the in game explanation but no source outside of Die Vecna Die! ever corroborates such information. It is, at the very least, a fan theory that's never been accepted by the writers of even the original adventure path. No other printed material outside of Die Vecna Die! mentions the Serpent is a complete mystery or doesn't exist.
Fine, but his failings are in part created by the dedicated efforts of noble adventurers like the PCs.

Voldemort's defeats are wrought by his own ineptitude.

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 03:35 PM
I'll certainly agree with that, but lets be fair. Vecna loses more than he wins really. He was hacked apart by his most trusted side kick for reasons unknown. All that remained were two mediocre artifacts.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 03:52 PM
He was hacked apart by his most trusted side kick for reasons unknown.
Didn't the sword corrupt him? Those intelligent weapons are a doozy.

thubby
2012-01-09, 04:00 PM
I'll certainly agree with that, but lets be fair. Vecna loses more than he wins really. He was hacked apart by his most trusted side kick for reasons unknown. All that remained were two mediocre artifacts.

i consider reaching godhood winning by most accounts. the only reason his hand and eye are the "only thing left" is because the rest of him is gallivanting about the outer planes, sticking it to pelor.

nyarlathotep
2012-01-09, 04:08 PM
I'll certainly agree with that, but lets be fair. Vecna loses more than he wins really. He was hacked apart by his most trusted side kick for reasons unknown. All that remained were two mediocre artifacts.

This part is questionable and problematic. The story tends to change depending on publication because retcons needed to be made to get new stories in. Originally he and Kas just killed each other and that was the end of the story. It wasn't until later that he was made into a demigod.

That being said if we're arguing that AK works because "it causes explosions on statues" then I argue that Voldy is killed be Power Word Kill because he was never shown to have something labeled "spell resistance".

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 04:22 PM
i consider reaching godhood winning by most accounts. the only reason his hand and eye are the "only thing left" is because the rest of him is gallivanting about the outer planes, sticking it to pelor.

I never said he never won either now did I? :smalltongue: He lost, was my point. More often than he won. He just won where it really counted. Doesn't mean he can claim a clean record by any stretch of the imagination. One would imagine asking about his failures however would end poorly for you and your loved ones considering he beheaded an entire city.


This part is questionable and problematic. The story tends to change depending on publication because retcons needed to be made to get new stories in. Originally he and Kas just killed each other and that was the end of the story. It wasn't until later that he was made into a demigod.

That being said if we're arguing that AK works because "it causes explosions on statues" then I argue that Voldy is killed be Power Word Kill because he was never shown to have something labeled "spell resistance".

How is it problematic? I never said anything other than Kas hacked him apart. Nothing about him gaining godhood in my entire post in fact. Kas, no matter the story, turned on Vecna and killed his bony butt. How and why it happened doesn't matter. When you're most trusted ally turns table and hacks you apart I call that a loss. Most would.

deuterio12
2012-01-09, 04:24 PM
I'll certainly agree with that, but lets be fair. Vecna loses more than he wins really. He was hacked apart by his most trusted side kick for reasons unknown. All that remained were two mediocre artifacts.

Do I need to remind you that his "side kick" was a freakingVAMPIRE BALOR? That tells a lot about Vecna's power level before ascending to godhood if you ask me.

What does voldemort has for sidekicks meanwhile? A giant snake, some giants. And he's also backstabbed by his own minions (Snape's double-triple play), and nothing is left of Voldemort when the dust settles.:smallamused:

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 04:40 PM
Kas was human. Not a Balor.

Tyndmyr
2012-01-09, 04:43 PM
Vecna wins in a heartbeat. Seriously, this isn't even a question.

Lamech
2012-01-09, 05:05 PM
Did we mention the part where Vecna was, in-universe, responsible for reformatting the universe to 3rd Edition?

And seriously, stop pretending to know the AD&D rules.

That is post accession. As per the OP, this takes place before Vecna achieves godhood. So I fail to see how that is relevant.

Moving on... ADnD 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
References to "segments" (individual units of time representing one phase of initiative, or six seconds of game-time [simulated time]) are removed from the game; instead, actions are given an "Initiative Modifier". "Melee rounds" are unchanged, representing one minute of game-time,Sooo.... it looks like melee rounds are in fact one minute. So unless there are any references anywhere to a caster being able to cast faster when they have no other pressures (like when invisible, flying out of range of danger, time stopped ect.) It would appear only one spell a minute is possible.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 05:16 PM
Sooo.... it looks like melee rounds are in fact one minute. So unless there are any references anywhere to a caster being able to cast faster when they have no other pressures (like when invisible, flying out of range of danger, time stopped ect.) It would appear only one spell a minute is possible.
You're citing Wikipedia about Dungeons & Dragons rules about the Dungeons & Dragons game instead of a Dungeons & Dragons book?


On a Dungeons & Dragons website?

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-09, 05:17 PM
Nope, Vecna wasn't a god yet when he pulled all that crap in Die, Vecna, Die, just an extremely powerful lich and a domain lord in Ravenloft (which has its pros and its cons. Mostly cons).

The point is Vecna could, and did, demonstrate extremely effective use of his mind, his resources, other peoples' resources, and most importantly to my point, his mind. Vecna is the undead magical David Xanatos of D&D, who just happens to have the magical ability to wipe out small planes of existence with a few hours' work. Voldemort is, again, ****ing stupid.

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 05:18 PM
Nope, Vecna wasn't a god yet when he pulled all that crap in Die, Vecna, Die, just an extremely powerful lich and a domain lord in Ravenloft (which has its pros and its cons. Mostly cons).

The point is Vecna could, and did, demonstrate extremely effective use of his mind, his resources, other peoples' resources, and most importantly to my point, his mind. Vecna is the undead magical David Xanatos of D&D, who just happens to have the magical ability to wipe out small planes of existence with a few hours' work. Voldemort is, again, ****ing stupid.

He was a Demi-God actually. Was before he was sent to Ravenloft actually. When he broke into Sigil he had the power of a Greater God at his disposal.

Not that that matters. He was still a powerful Arch-Lich before any of that and more than a match for a mortal wizard.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 05:42 PM
To nail the coffin shut on casting times in 2nd Edition AD&D, a round is one minute of game time, but multiple instances of action can take place.
Specifically with spells Affect Normal Fires has a Casting Time of 1 and a Duration of 2 rds./level.
On the other hands, Alarm had a casting time of 1 rd. and a Duration of 4 hrs. + 1 hr./level.
Time Stop had a Casting Time of 9.
So does Monster Summoning VII, with a duration of 8 rds. + 1 rd./level and Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Meteor Swarm, Gate, and Bigby's Crushing Hand.
Power Word, Kill had a Casting Time of 1.

ince there's a clear distinction between a round and an integer number, rounds and the casting time of a minute doesn't hold any water.
The casting time of a spell occurs within the melee round, and its duration lasts outside of that.
I suppose the abstract nature of casting time and weapon speeds allowed for slow or fast combat occurring in one minute.

Casting times were added to initiative die rolls, while spells requiring multiple rounds took effect at the end of the last round.
This can all be found in the 2nd Edition AD&D Handbook on page 174.

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-09, 05:47 PM
I have to say, I unironically love these ridiculous not-even-a-fight matchup threads.

I wonder what we'll get next? The Seven Dwarves vs. the Silver Surfer? Wheatley vs. the Imperium of Man?

Mando Knight
2012-01-09, 05:55 PM
Wheatley vs. the Imperium of Man?

I dunno... depends on where they are. If Wheatley's in control of Aperture Science and the entire Imperium is inside, no one wins... I don't know if they could work together against a nigh-omnipotent moron. In a self-destructive environment.

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 05:56 PM
Naw, it'll be Galactus versus Sponge Bob.

Ravens_cry
2012-01-09, 06:00 PM
Naw, it'll be Galactus versus Sponge Bob.
Wow . . .that's just, that's not even remotely even.
Poor, poor Galactcus.:smalleek:

Zaydos
2012-01-09, 06:01 PM
Power Word Kill: Casting Time 1; that means you can cast it faster than someone stabs a dagger, or an animal uses its claws.

Only spells with a casting time of 1 round took 60 seconds to cast; 2e rules used heavy abstraction and round by round initiative because your initiative was largely when you had the opportunity to act. If you read the 2e description of a combat round it talks about the simple act of drinking a potion, and that in combat this act includes: taking stock of the situation, seeing if anyone can help, slipping off one strap of a backpack, getting jumped by two orcs, scrambling backwards several feet to avoid their attacks, having an ally buy a moment by attacking the orcs, kneeling down and getting the backpack off, rummaging through it, avoiding the worst of a fireball by hiding behind your shield, drinking the potion, kicking the backpack away. All this by Withdrawing and drinking a potion. So no, casting the spell does not take a minute, it takes as long as it does to fumble around in the confusion of battle. Power Word Kill is quicker than AK as it is one, instead of two, words.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-09, 06:04 PM
Power Word Kill is quicker than AK as it is one, instead of two, words.
Sweeeet.
Didn't even notice that. Has one syllable too.

kpenguin
2012-01-09, 06:08 PM
I question why this would come down to a personal fight between the two. The OP said that they both have access to their full resources and loyal base of followers, and are competing for godhood.

While its possible that either of the two would try to confront each other personally in a duel, I find it more likely this will be a battle between their organizations, at least at first.

In which case Vecna definitely has the upperhand. The Death Eaters may have Magical Britain in their hands, but Vecna ruled an empire that threatened the universe on a planar level. Vecna is also a far more competent administrator and schemer than Voldie.

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-09, 06:56 PM
I dunno... depends on where they are. If Wheatley's in control of Aperture Science and the entire Imperium is inside, no one wins... I don't know if they could work together against a nigh-omnipotent moron. In a self-destructive environment.

Hah! Now that's an interesting thought.

But no, in keeping with the present trend, I was thinking he would be floating in space.

Worira
2012-01-09, 07:48 PM
I question why this would come down to a personal fight between the two. The OP said that they both have access to their full resources and loyal base of followers, and are competing for godhood.

While its possible that either of the two would try to confront each other personally in a duel, I find it more likely this will be a battle between their organizations, at least at first.

In which case Vecna definitely has the upperhand. The Death Eaters may have Magical Britain in their hands, but Vecna ruled an empire that threatened the universe on a planar level. Vecna is also a far more competent administrator and schemer than Voldie.

I think a more interesting question would be Vecna would fare by himself versus Voldemort and all his followers, actually.

Tebryn
2012-01-09, 08:07 PM
Symbol of X line ends them. It's still not a contest. It just makes the spells he has to cast less.

Lamech
2012-01-09, 08:11 PM
Symbol of X line ends them. It's still not a contest. It just makes the spells he has to cast less.

If we assume any sort of magic transparency... shield spells? Cast on items?

Coidzor
2012-01-09, 08:54 PM
I never said he never won either now did I? :smalltongue: He lost, was my point. More often than he won. He just won where it really counted. Doesn't mean he can claim a clean record by any stretch of the imagination. One would imagine asking about his failures however would end poorly for you and your loved ones considering he beheaded an entire city.

He created and maintained an empire until the sudden but inevitable betrayal. You don't do that by losing more than you win. Most of the times he loses it's not actually him on the table but minor cultists here and there in their skirmishes against adventurers, and, really, once you're playing around in D&D godhood, it's like a game of Populus, unless the adventurers really cheese him off, the most he'll really do is think to recommend a Knight or Monster to look up the adventurers and eat them and take their stuff if such is in the area.

Kas betraying him doesn't point to anything but that he suffered a single significant set back at that time, which doesn't imply anything one way or another as far as winning or losing more often.

Ascending to Godhood was a pretty big win. Escaping Ravenloft was a pretty big win that more than offset the previous loss of ending up there in the first place.


That is post accession. As per the OP, this takes place before Vecna achieves godhood. So I fail to see how that is relevant.

It demonstrates his can-do spirit, attitude, and abilities. Also, his competency.


Moving on... ADnD 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons) Sooo.... it looks like melee rounds are in fact one minute. So unless there are any references anywhere to a caster being able to cast faster when they have no other pressures (like when invisible, flying out of range of danger, time stopped ect.) It would appear only one spell a minute is possible.

This has already been addressed.

Lamech
2012-01-09, 10:53 PM
Kas betraying him doesn't point to anything but that he suffered a single significant set back at that time, which doesn't imply anything one way or another as far as winning or losing more often.
Does show that he doesn't know enough to ask with contact outer plane "Hey if I take no actions on the basis of this question who will be the next person to seriously hurt me in the next 100 years?" I mean was he even looking for threats?
Again neither of these people seem very competent. Voldemort is probably worse, but...

blackjack217
2012-01-09, 11:06 PM
Assuming we're talking about a 3.5 Vecna Voldemort has no chance. Hell past maybe level 5-7 Harry Potter wizards don't really have any chance, especially against optimized wizards. Just a simple invisibility would be a huge asset, since it seems that only decently powerful wizards can do a convincing invisibility spell, and flight is something only seen like once by Voldemort, so aside from a no save instant death spell they have nothing on mid level D&D wizards.


Yeah that no save instant death spell turns every fight into a why don't you just shoot him situation. Although Valdy might have a chance, if he can get his hands on a nuke...

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 12:13 AM
If we assume any sort of magic transparency... shield spells? Cast on items?

I think we need to assume transparency or Volde gets screwed over even more but...what? What about shields...what about...casting what on items? What are they casting on the items? Are you saying Vecna is an item? What? I think you need to review some spells from D&D. The power level is just not the same and Vecna is himself, without magic so an Antimagic Field leaves the Wizards very much muggles while Vecna is still a right angry lich whose very touch would freeze them in their tracks. The contest is non-existent.

One spell....one....ruins the entire opposing party. One. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicShield.htm)

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 12:27 AM
It'd be better for him to use the higher-level Displacement, at least. Seeing as that's a 50% change and is actually on the Wizard/Sorcerer list so he doesn't have to blow a Limited Wish on it.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 12:30 AM
Very true, it was merely to demonstrate that it'd only take one spell to invalidate his enemies if he went toe to toe with them. It's late here and I picked poorly. :smallredface: I doubt Vecna, even if it was just him against the Death Eaters, would summon some monsters instead and use those.

Lamech
2012-01-10, 12:59 AM
I think we need to assume transparency or Volde gets screwed over even more but...what? What about shields...what about...casting what on items? What are they casting on the items? Are you saying Vecna is an item? What? I think you need to review some spells from D&D. The power level is just not the same and Vecna is himself, without magic so an Antimagic Field leaves the Wizards very much muggles while Vecna is still a right angry lich whose very touch would freeze them in their tracks. The contest is non-existent.

One spell....one....ruins the entire opposing party. One. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entropicShield.htm)
... ... ... ... These things?
(http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Hat). They are made by enchanting a shield spell on an item. (Yes, they don't defeat unforgivable curses, of course those are the equivalent of dominate monster, or power word kill*+boom.)

*Actually AK doesn't have an HP limit so its above that.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 01:08 AM
*Actually AK doesn't have an HP limit so its above that.
Hmmmm. So, Harry Potter's universe, being a book, doesn't have hit points.
If they don't have hit points, Voldemort can't be killed...
...hmmmmm.

Looks baaaaaaaad for Vecna. Voldemort's got a spell that has no HP limits in a universe without HPs.
Wooooooooohoohooooooooo.
This changes everything!
Back to the bunker!

kpenguin
2012-01-10, 01:11 AM
Then again, Voldemort has no saving throws, so he automatically fails any save-or-dies Vecna throws at him.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 01:16 AM
OHMYGAWD!
You know what else doesn't have an HP limit in Harry Potter land? Guns, broomsticks and rocks.
And England, where Harry Potter is, is built on rocks!
With the no HP limit, Voldemort could one-shot Vecna while dual-wielding a rock and a pistol.
And if that doesn't work, he can use the broomstick to get reach!
Does Harry Potter have reach?
Eh, doesn't matter.
Voldemort has a rock!
ROCKS!
No HP limits!
BEWARD VOLDEMORT DUAL-WIELDING ROCKS AND A GUUUUUUUUN.

Sure, he'll have a penalty since he probably doesn't have the two-weapon path of a ranger since there are no feats, ranger and skills in Harry Potter.
But he's got a rock!

Coidzor
2012-01-10, 02:27 AM
... ... ... ... These things?
(http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Hat). They are made by enchanting a shield spell on an item. (Yes, they don't defeat unforgivable curses, of course those are the equivalent of dominate monster, or power word kill*+boom.)

So it's good against light to moderate but not against anything that's powerful. Now did the ability to heighten spells exist in AD&D, I wonder.


Does show that he doesn't know enough to ask with contact outer plane "Hey if I take no actions on the basis of this question who will be the next person to seriously hurt me in the next 100 years?" I mean was he even looking for threats?
Again neither of these people seem very competent. Voldemort is probably worse, but...

As far as we know, that's exactly the kind of thing Vecna did/would do given access to such magical knowledge, and the betrayal was still successful, or at least, moderately so. Did Vecna see some benefit towards increasing his power by letting the attempt at least partially succeed? Or did the betrayal manage to evade Vecna's paranoia, superhuman ability to make preparations, and magic?

I believe the intention is to make it hard to say one way or the other, to heighten the mysterious air about it.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 08:19 AM
... ... ... ... These things?
(http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_Hat). They are made by enchanting a shield spell on an item. (Yes, they don't defeat unforgivable curses, of course those are the equivalent of dominate monster, or power word kill*+boom.)

*Actually AK doesn't have an HP limit so its above that.

Right, so light to moderate curses. That doesn't help them. Vecna was still an epic level paranoid Wizard Arch-Lich before he was ever a God. The level of spells he can get his hands on, as you've pointed out, are well and truly beyond what one would call "Light to Moderate". That still doesn't address the fact that Vecna doesn't even have to engage the Wizards of the HP world. He has the ability to summon Demons and Devils at his whim. The level of power between the two are not even close to the same.


So it's good against light to moderate but not against anything that's powerful. Now did the ability to heighten spells exist in AD&D, I wonder.

Not in the same manner as in 3.5 as there were no feats. But I believe in one of the splat books they gave rituals and other non-weapon profs that let you do some things like that. I haven't looked at those books in ages however so...I don't quite remember.

Lamech
2012-01-10, 09:28 AM
So it's good against light to moderate but not against anything that's powerful. Now did the ability to heighten spells exist in AD&D, I wonder.Except we aren't really sure what light to moderate means. Suppose it translates to low to mid level spells? That is up to sixish. Probably more against stuff that dilutes its power against multiple targets. We do know it was used by the ministry for defense so it is combat grade stuff.



As far as we know, that's exactly the kind of thing Vecna did/would do given access to such magical knowledge, and the betrayal was still successful, or at least, moderately so. Did Vecna see some benefit towards increasing his power by letting the attempt at least partially succeed? Or did the betrayal manage to evade Vecna's paranoia, superhuman ability to make preparations, and magic?

I believe the intention is to make it hard to say one way or the other, to heighten the mysterious air about it.
So your theory to his betrayal is actually it wasn't a betrayal at all because Vecna is so smart? ... Can my theory be Voldemort's loss is actually it wasn't a loss because Voldemort was so smart?



That still doesn't address the fact that Vecna doesn't even have to engage the Wizards of the HP world. He has the ability to summon Demons and Devils at his whim. The level of power between the two are not even close to the same. To promptly have there soul ripped out by Dementors? I think Voldemort wins the minion war with immortal soul eaters, that need specialized spells to be defeated. (Actually how is Vecna supposed to deal with those? Run away?) What is Vecna's master plan if Voldemort decides to hide (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fidelius_Charm) the path to godhood?

So I really don't think Vecna wins because he's more powerful. He likely wins because he is seems merely careless, while Voldemort is actively self-defeating.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 09:46 AM
Except we aren't really sure what light to moderate means.
Speak for yourself.


We do know it was used by the ministry for defense so it is combat grade stuff.
Which failed to protect them from Voldemort's take over.


So your theory to his betrayal is actually it wasn't a betrayal at all because Vecna is so smart? ... Can my theory be Voldemort's loss is actually it wasn't a loss because Voldemort was so smart?
Kas' betrayal is irrelevant to this discussion, because there can be no doubt Kas himself is more than a problem for Voldemort.
He can't even kill a child or call a bluff.
Kas' betrayal was completely random-the by-product of an intelligent weapon nobody could have predicted.
Voldemort however has a history of repeating the same tactics on the same boy with the same results.


To promptly have there soul ripped out by Dementors?
Just because the destruction of a Dementor doesn't fall into the plot of the books doesn't make them immortal and unkillable.
Assuming they breed, which I believe they do around human history, if they were unkillable, they would have overpopulated the earth.

Demons and Dementors might even work together...
Demons set the conditions for misery and Dementors profit just for fun.
And if Dementors are undead, Voldemort is really in trouble, since he has to bargain with them while Vecna says, "Command Undead" or "Rebuke Undead", or whatever the 2nd AD&D equivalents are.
Barring that, a demons spellcasting abilities, let alone Vecna's are more than capable of creating light and fire to turn back the Dementors, who'd have no interest in creatures who hardly have souls and care little for hope, joy and happiness.


What is Vecna's master plan if Voldemort decides to hide the path to godhood?
That is the dumbest thing yet.
If Vecna already KNOWS how to become a god...
...how does Voldemort learn to become a god if he can't even be a competent dictatator...
...you can't just use the spell to hide an arbitrary secret-you have to know it yourself, if not, Dumbledore could have cast the Fidelius Charm to keep Voldemort from finding where his own mouth is and being able to-see how ridiculous that sounds?


So I really don't think Vecna wins because he's more powerful. He likely wins because he is seems merely careless, while Voldemort is actively self-defeating.
He's careless because one minion turned on him after being driven mad by a sword?
No, Voldemort loses because he can't match the power and output that Voldemort can so casually shell out.
Vecna is better in every way while Voldemort is a bumbling impotent AND incompetent old man who's only capable of killing teachers, parents and prisoners.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 09:51 AM
Seriously, how desperate and bottom-barrel scraping do you have to go?

Avada Kedavra doesn't have an HP limit?
Fidelius Charms can hide any information at will on a whim?
Dementors can take souls from DEMONS?

It's as simple as this:
Voldemort: Avada-
Vecna: Kill
*game over*


Vecna is faster, stronger, has a bigger spell list, uses it better, has terrible abilities and isn't a pale-snake faced anorexic failure.
Vecna's storied success stands as a testament to his true abilities dwarfing neat tricks employed by other characters who were NOT Voldemort.

Vecna's one mistake was not predicting a weapon would drive its wielder into a rebellion against authority.

Lamech
2012-01-10, 10:01 AM
Speak for yourself.So you can site the page where it gives an exact description of what does and doesn't qualify? It clearly fails against top tier things: Artifact destroying fire storms, unforgivable curses, and the like and works against the kind of stuff you cast in a friendly jinx match. Of course, if we tried to map them to DnD that would be like saying "works against first level spells fails at things that are pushing level 9"
It probably is roughly low to moderate spell levels (1-6ish) possibly a little more because things like AK or artifact destroying fire storms seem beyond 9th level standard ADnD spells.



Kas' betrayal was completely random-the by-product of an intelligent weapon nobody could have predicted.Once again that is what contact other plane is for. Easily predictable.


Just because the destruction of a Dementor doesn't fall into the plot of the books doesn't make them immortal and unkillable.
Assuming they breed, which I believe they do around human history, if they were unkillable, they would have overpopulated the earth.Nope (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dementor)



Demons and Dementors might even work together...
Demons set the conditions for misery and Dementors profit just for fun.
And if Dementors are undead, Voldemort is really in trouble, since he has to bargain with them while Vecna says, "Command Undead" or "Rebuke Undead", or whatever the 2nd AD&D equivalents are.
Barring that, a demons spellcasting abilities, let alone Vecna's are more than capable of creating light and fire to turn back the Dementors, who'd have no interest in creatures who hardly have souls and care little for hope, joy and happiness.They are clearly not undead. And I'm pretty sure they will work for the people that can round them up and keep them from doing anything.


That is the dumbest thing yet.
If Vecna already KNOWS how to become a god...
...how does Voldemort learn to become a god if he can't even be a competent dictatator...
...you can't just use the spell to hide an arbitrary secret-you have to know it yourself, if not, Dumbledore could have cast the Fidelius Charm to keep Voldemort from finding where his own mouth is and being able to-see how ridiculous that sounds?

Once again (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fidelius_Charm) locations can be hidden. Unless those households were totally anti-social other people would know the location of the house yet it got hidden anyway. So where the path to godhood is at Voldemort simply hides it and calls it good.

Traab
2012-01-10, 10:03 AM
Just because the destruction of a Dementor doesn't fall into the plot of the books doesn't make them immortal and unkillable.
Assuming they breed, which I believe they do around human history, if they were unkillable, they would have overpopulated the earth.

Its been awhile since I read them, but im fairly sure that at some point in books 6 or 7 its mentioned that the dementors are breeding, which explains why england is covered in a perpetual murk and has an aura of despair or some such thing all the time.

Also, id like to just go back a few pages and agree, this is way too huge of a mismatch. I dont even know much about vecna and I know canon voldemort cant hope to win. I propose we use a fanon version! Someone find a decent link to a hp fanfic with a seriously empowered voldemort! I know there are several out there that at least have voldemort able to draw on the magical cores of everyone with a dark mark at will, giving him the raw power of say, 100 or more wizards at need. There are others that mention rituals that greatly increased his resistance to magical damage as well. Either way, find a kick ass voldemort and we can use that to give us an opponent that could perhaps put up an actual FIGHT against vecna.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 10:10 AM
So your theory to his betrayal is actually it wasn't a betrayal at all because Vecna is so smart? ... Can my theory be Voldemort's loss is actually it wasn't a loss because Voldemort was so smart?

No, because the books show clearly that that isn't the case. The argument only works when there's proof for it. Voldemort is shown to want to win. He doesn't because of the Wizard Messiah.


To promptly have there soul ripped out by Dementors? I think Voldemort wins the minion war with immortal soul eaters, that need specialized spells to be defeated. (Actually how is Vecna supposed to deal with those? Run away?)

No because Vecna doesn't have a soul. He's a lich. That's the whole point.


What is Vecna's master plan if Voldemort decides to hide (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fidelius_Charm) the path to godhood?

Vecna became the God of Secrets, he'd find it. D&D magic can break that at an epic level for sure. Which Vecna more than probably is. Without a doubt is actually.


So I really don't think Vecna wins because he's more powerful. He likely wins because he is seems merely careless, while Voldemort is actively self-defeating.

You'd be wrong however. D&D magic is in order of magnitudes stronger than HP magic. It's not even a contest.



Nope (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dementor)

Except on that very page it says they can die. So...yep.



Once again (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fidelius_Charm) locations can be hidden. Unless those households were totally anti-social other people would know the location of the house yet it got hidden anyway. So where the path to godhood it at Voldemort simply hides it and calls it good.

It wasn't a valid argument the first time you made it, and it's not any more the second time. Even if he kills the only Secret Keeper nothing is barring him from ripping their soul from their proper resting place and forcing it to tell him. I could link a dozen or so spells that would just give him the info but...this is just getting silly.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 10:13 AM
So you can site the page where it gives an exact description of what does and doesn't qualify?
Can you?



Once again that is what contact other plane is for. Easily predictable.
WHY WOULD YOU CONTACT OTHER PLANE TO ASK: "Hi other-wordly being-is the weapon my lieutenant going to gain intelligence? Will it be malignant? Will it drive him mad? Will that madness be directed at me?"

Even if that is reasonable-one mistake.
ONE.
And he bounced back.


http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Arts
You're using Rowling's lack of using the word 'undead' to your advantage.
Dementors are described merely as 'dark creatures', which refers to anythign Dark Arts related.
They're clearly undead


They are clearly not undead. And I'm pretty sure they will work for the people that can round them up and keep them from doing anything.
Voldemort didn't do that-he had to negotiate. Just like the Ministry did.
Since Dementors ARE undead; having many of the characteristics exhibited by the UNDEAD, Vecna would command them or destroy them with undead destroying spells at will.
And you have completely skipped over numerous points on how Vecna has better offers than Voldemort.
Demons have no souls, so why would Dementors bother?
Vecna is a twisted evil with his soul safely tucked away, so no problem.


Stop citing Wikipedia pages
Have you ever read a book?
Metaphors!
"The path to godhood" is not a place, it's the actions one takes to achieve apotheosis.
Of which there are many.

A house's location can be hidden because the location of the house is known to the spell's caster.
Voldemort couldn't hide the pa-why is this even important?
If Vecna and Voldemort meet in an alley, according to the conditions of this 'matchup' they will try to kill one another, not block the others path to godhood.

See, you obviously know Voldemort is inept yourself; you've got him hiding Vecna's literal path to godhood, because we all know Vecna walked along the 407 to get his powers, while Vecna's summoning demons and bringing down hell from the skies.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-10, 10:16 AM
Let us remember this is the same dude who fragged with the Lady of Pain, who is like the most uber or ubers of D&D (and unilaterally was in AD&D) - and his nascent godhood is rather irrelevant to that, since she's pretty much considered to be above diety-level (she's pretty much the definition of unstatted, nobody-can-beat-her-not-even-the-PCs) and he metaphrocially urinated in her fire AND GOT AWAY WITH IT. Yes, by the barest of margins, he didn't become UNILATERAL RULER OF THE ENTIRE MULTIVERSE thanks to some meddling adventurers (note that Vecna also required a team of experienced heroes to stop him from ruling everything, ever and only succeeding in changing the fundemental laws of Reality, whereas Voldy couldn't manage to kill one out of a group of (albiet extremely talented and dedicated) school leavers...

They...just really aren't in the same weight class. They aren't even, like CLOSE. We're talking the Ameoba Boys from Powerpuff girls verses, I dunno, Sephiroth or G1 Galvatron or Sauron or something (Okay, I may be exaggerating a bit. Actually, Sauron verses pre-god Vecna might be prove to be an interesting struggle, especially if done on a strategic scale...)

I don't see how you can possibly argue otherwise, given the facts that one ruled an empire, has 2300 years of experience and became a freaking god (as if that isn't "I won", I don't know what is, putting him in the same league as the PC protagonist of Baldur's Gate II...!), where as the other is only an eighty year old wizard who probably wouldn't have been a match for his chief adversary in his prime (remember Voldy was scared of Dumbledore...) and who's main achievement was two fairly brief periods of civil unrest in a fairly small country (duirng which he managed to "rule", if you can call it that for less than a year, if not less than six months on the second occasion), and whose actions went officially unoticed by the vast bulk of the population.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 10:20 AM
Sauron is/was kind of sort of a God like entity in his own right so...that'd probably be fair but the power levels are still vastly different. If they have all their followers, all their minions and money and magical items at their disposal the playing field here grows even more unlevel. Vecna doesn't have to engage anyone or anything one on one. He rarely did against competent adventurers. He has an army larger than the Death Eaters that's for certain. The army is filled with Vampires and Demons/Devils all of which are more than a match for Voldemort in some cases. Vecna is beyond overkill.

Voldemort is a powerful wizard with the brainpower of a lemon who from all the books I have gathered relied more on other people than any tactical genius he may have possessed. His attempts at life were thwarted by adolescent children at least twice, two more times by a few more hands in the mix and eventually died as a very poor card board cut out Fasciest Allagory that's taken down by a thinly veiled Messianic Proxy to teach children that love, understanding and acceptance of other people will always win the day when that's as far from reality as the books themselves were.

Vecna on the other hand is a power hungry Lich whose lived countless years studying the magical arts of the Vancian variety with an organization and the tools to become, eventually, the God of Secrets. His single minded desire to not just gain power but gain ALL THE POWER drives him to assult an entity that can flay people alive just by standing in her shadow and whose resultant attempts at wresting the ultimate power of the universe renders the entire Multi-Verse akin to a battered house wife. While the (continued) assertions that this was what caused 3.5 are both unverified and not all relevant because he did that as a Greater God which he isn't in this debate. The fact however remains that no matter how you slice this particular pie the end result is the same. Voldemort and the entire HP world would shudder at the bony feet of a vastly superior mind and power that is Vecna.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 10:22 AM
I will admit that Dementors may actually be a problem for Vecna if they are "evil spirits" rather than actual undead (I think Dementors are just a kind of supernatural occurrence, rather than the spiritual remains of a dead person, which would incline me to think they are just ethereal creatures and not undead per se.) Not for Vecna personally (Lich), but they'd be a pretty nasty opponent for Vecna's hypothetical army until he researched their capabilities. Likely the most effective way of dealing with them would be to keep his armies buffed with Remove Fear and Good Hope, which aren't wizard spells (evil bards and clerics are completely capable of casting them, though), or just blast away at them with things that can effect ethereal creatures (force damage, etc.)

Selrahc
2012-01-10, 10:49 AM
Let us remember this is the same dude who fragged with the Lady of Pain, who is like the most uber or ubers of D&D (and unilaterally was in AD&D) - and his nascent godhood is rather irrelevant to that, since she's pretty much considered to be above diety-level (she's pretty much the definition of unstatted, nobody-can-beat-her-not-even-the-PCs) and he metaphrocially urinated in her fire AND GOT AWAY WITH IT.

Meh. That probably just means she Mazed him, and he escaped from the maze and decided not to bother her again.

Unless there is some sort of account of what the conflict between them was?

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 10:57 AM
It doesn't matter since he was a "Greater" God in Die Vecna Die. Anything from Vecna Lives! is totally moot since he was Demi-God from that point (And I believe before) and beyond.

Lamech
2012-01-10, 10:59 AM
WHY WOULD YOU CONTACT OTHER PLANE TO ASK: "Hi other-wordly being-is the weapon my lieutenant going to gain intelligence? Will it be malignant? Will it drive him mad? Will that madness be directed at me?"No you would ask "Hey, if I take no action on the basis of this question, who will be the next entity to seriously hurt me in the next 100 years?" Follow it up confirming you weren't lied to (arguably with a different entity), then repeat the question until you get an answer of nobody. And really that is sort of a minimum to basic security.


They're clearly undeadNo they are not. They have nothing to do with undead. Their is nothing about them coming from a corpse and nothing about them being a dead person's ghost. The defining trait of undead is they used to be a person, died, and came back as a monster. There is nothing about Dementors being formerly human.



Demons have no souls, so why would Dementors bother?
Vecna is a twisted evil with his soul safely tucked away, so no problem.In 3.5 at least liches and demons have no protection against trap the soul. Arguably Liches are an invalid target for soul bind but demons are certainly valid. Were liches or demons actually given any resistance to soul taking spells and the like in 2nd edition?



Voldemort couldn't hide the pa-why is this even important?
...


So... Assume that both find the road to Godhood. and both want the same power. Who would win if they had to face each other for that power?

Once again. The opening post. Since they are fighting over something Voldemort can simply hide that something and then proceed to take it. (Then it would be nice and safe just like the Potter Parents should have been since Voldemort would have no qualms about killing the person who knows the secret.) In fact, depending on when he pierced HP's plot shield in this set up (as per the OP if it needs to be mentioned) Voldemort could steal a time turner and achieve power before Vecna ever learns of it.

Traab
2012-01-10, 11:17 AM
Once again. The opening post. Since they are fighting over something Voldemort can simply hide that something and then proceed to take it. (Then it would be nice and safe just like the Potter Parents should have been since Voldemort would have no qualms about killing the person who knows the secret.) In fact, depending on when he pierced HP's plot shield in this set up (as per the OP if it needs to be mentioned) Voldemort could steal a time turner and achieve power before Vecna ever learns of it.

I dont think it works that way. Hiding things I mean. Voldemort would have to actually HAVE the item in his possession before he could fidelius it. And if he has it..... why is he hiding it? He won. I dont think you can long distance fidelius something like that.

Gullintanni
2012-01-10, 11:22 AM
Regarding Dementors and soul stealing, I remember their process being less than instantaneous. That means that Vecna/Demons/Devils will have time to react. And that's assuming that soul stealing would be an No Save:SR No activity. I could see it being SR: No, as it's not a spell, but most soul trapping magic in 3.5 D&D affords the target a will save.

Regarding type, converting to 3.5 Dementors are pretty clearly either Incorporeal Undead or Outsiders. In the case of the former, there are more than enough ways for an Epic level Lich to deal with Undead, and in the case of the latter, the Planar Binding line of spells ought to work.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 11:25 AM
The "Road to Godhood" is not something you can drive cars over and hit poor defenseless woodland critters on. It's a metaphor for the journey to the power of an entity like a God.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-10, 11:26 AM
Meh. That probably just means she Mazed him, and he escaped from the maze and decided not to bother her again.

Unless there is some sort of account of what the conflict between them was?

Die, Vecna Die!, in which Vecna blew up a chunk of Ravenloft in which to funnel himself into Sigil as a demi-god, and thereupon ascending to greater godhood, and requiring the Lady of Pain to send in adventurers to distract his avatar, since he was actually holding her off with main magical force (though I suppose it's possible she couldn't use beyond a certain limit without cracking the mulitverse, since Vecna was currently trying to re-write it), and then we the PCs did the equivalent of "excuse Mr. Vecna, could I possibly just distract you for a breif moment" (which they could only manage if they'd mutliated themselves and added that last few minor relics of Vecna to their person and thus protecting themselves from direct magical attack from him), the Lady booted him out of Sigil. That is still an achievement that, to my knowledge, no other entity has ever done.

Compared to that, multiple-phylacteries-guy is kinda small change (though still a significant accomplishment.)


Once again. The opening post. Since they are fighting over something Voldemort can simply hide that something and then proceed to take it. (Then it would be nice and safe just like the Potter Parents should have been since Voldemort would have no qualms about killing the person who knows the secret.) In fact, depending on when he pierced HP's plot shield in this set up (as per the OP if it needs to be mentioned) Voldemort could steal a time turner and achieve power before Vecna ever learns of it.

You think you can hide something from the Lord of Secrets? The guy to whom MAGIC ITSELF DIRECTLY TALKS TO, which told him how to get one over on the Powers of Ravenloft?

Seriously? Seriously?

Finding out stuff is like Vecna's whole schtick, like Voldy's is snakes!



And if it was that easy to use time-turners, someone would have already done it; if not Voldy, then someone else for some other reason (e.g. see How Harry Potter Should Have Ended...!)

And quite how Voldemort would travel to another plane of existanse as would likely be required is beyond me... (Unless you are proposing that the secret of godhood in on HP Earth somewhere...?)

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 11:50 AM
No you would ask "Hey, if I take no action on the basis of this question, who will be the next entity to seriously hurt me in the next 100 years?" Follow it up confirming you weren't lied to (arguably with a different entity), then repeat the question until you get an answer of nobody. And really that is sort of a minimum to basic security.

One minor mistake.
One.



No they are not. They have nothing to do with undead. Their is nothing about them coming from a corpse and nothing about them being a dead person's ghost. The defining trait of undead is they used to be a person, died, and came back as a monster. There is nothing about Dementors being formerly human.

Devourer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devourer.htm), Ghoul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm), Nightshades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler), Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm), and Wraiths (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm).
Out of that list, about three have no indication of having past lives and are described of being born of pure darkness and evil.
So, because they didn't have past living lives their not undead?
:smallconfused


Regarding type, converting to 3.5 Dementors are pretty clearly either Incorporeal Undead or Outsiders. In the case of the former, there are more than enough ways for an Epic level Lich to deal with Undead, and in the case of the latter, the Planar Binding line of spells ought to work.

Bam!


Once again. The opening post. Since they are fighting over something Voldemort can simply hide that something and then proceed to take it. (Then it would be nice and safe just like the Potter Parents should have been since Voldemort would have no qualms about killing the person who knows the secret.) In fact, depending on when he pierced HP's plot shield in this set up (as per the OP if it needs to be mentioned) Voldemort could steal a time turner and achieve power before Vecna ever learns of it.

Godhood is not always something or someplace.
It can be the killing of another god.
Sacrificing a large amount of souls.
There's no literal 'path to godhood'. And even if Voldemort could hide one, Vecna would find another one.

And he can't hide one because in order to hide it, he'd have to know it, and he's never exhibited any god-like tendencies, ailities or ambitions, as well as any wizard in Rowling's universe.

In all seriousness, the OP looks to have been giving Voldemort as many handicaps as possible by regulating Vecna from his current state and letting Voldemort play at his most powerful.
Further railroading them on a quest to fight over the SAME power also stinks of handicapping.
Which also leads me to ask is how can you assume Voldemort will be able to do the Fidelius Charm first?

And you know what the Fidelius Charm can't do? What no wizard in Rowling's world has been able to do?
Hide Magic.
A simple Detect Magic would find whatever place, thing or whatever plot-device that will be juuuuuuuuust convenient for Voldemort but not for Vecna.

Afterall, if the path to godhood is to drain the divine energy from Nerull's corpse in Pluton, Voldemort would be hard pressed.
He'd have to first find out there are other planes of existent.
Find a way to get there.
Get there and survive.
Find the Dead God's tomb, hide/penetrate the Tomb and drain the Dead God.

We don't even know how long the Fidelius Charm takes to cast or use, and what the finer points are.
How big of a secret?
How long can it honestly be expected to hold?
Does Voldemort know it?
WOULD Voldemort use it?

Lamech
2012-01-10, 11:53 AM
Regarding Dementors and soul stealing, I remember their process being less than instantaneous. That means that Vecna/Demons/Devils will have time to react. And that's assuming that soul stealing would be an No Save:SR No activity. I could see it being SR: No, as it's not a spell, but most soul trapping magic in 3.5 D&D affords the target a will save.

Regarding type, converting to 3.5 Dementors are pretty clearly either Incorporeal Undead or Outsiders. In the case of the former, there are more than enough ways for an Epic level Lich to deal with Undead, and in the case of the latter, the Planar Binding line of spells ought to work.They are clearly not undead (not formerly living) nor is there any evidence that they come from another plane of existence. (Indeed there is very little evidence of anything coming from other planes of existence in HP).



The "Road to Godhood" is not something you can drive cars over and hit poor defenseless woodland critters on. It's a metaphor for the journey to the power of an entity like a God. No true. But they clearly have something to fight over. Start by hiding it, then Vecna can't find you nor stop you.


You think you can hide something from the Lord of Secrets? Didn't he get that title post godhood? Regardless does this title give him some power to be omniscient?

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 11:57 AM
They are clearly not undead (not formerly living) nor is there any evidence that they come from another plane of existence. (Indeed there is very little evidence of anything coming from other planes of existence in HP).
You don't have to be formerly living to be undead.


No true. But they clearly have something to fight over. Start by hiding it, then Vecna can't find you nor stop you.

That something can be any number of things. It'd be good for Voldemort if it were a small, tiny object that he could just press and bam you're a god.
But since the OP was kind of open-ended, to assume its something so easily hidden is unfair.

Like I said, what if the path to godhood is to kill another god? What does Voldemort do then?

General Patton
2012-01-10, 12:23 PM
Didn't he get that title post godhood? Regardless does this title give him some power to be omniscient?

I believe Vecna as a deity has been statted as having Divine Rank 10. One of his Domains is Knowledge and his Portfolio is specifically regarding secrets. Therefore, he can sense the discovery, recording, or sharing of any secret that affects at least five hundred people. Anything that has an impact on the outcome of the battle would affect who rules the Earth and would affect approximately seven billion people. You don't seem very knowledgeable about D&D divinity. Just be glad his Divine Rank isn't 16-20, otherwise he could detect secrets even if they affect only one person, and this Portfolio Sense would extend 16-20 weeks into the past and FUTURE.

Regardless, in D&D, you don't just arbitrarily choose your Domains and Portfolio like a minmaxing gamer/munchkin. They are granted to you based on what traits you exemplify, purely by virtue of having already excelled at them. Vecna, pre-ascension, had to earn that title by being the best at finding hidden knowledge.

Fan
2012-01-10, 12:33 PM
I don't see how hiding something from someone who has access to the scry spell and a detailed description / familiarity of it works very well, let alone someone renowned for finding said things.

I've still yet to see a counter to the standard scry / die approach with trap the soul.

Or hell even just a power word stun followed by power word kill, and then trap the soul.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 12:35 PM
No true. But they clearly have something to fight over. Start by hiding it, then Vecna can't find you nor stop you.

Hide -what-? What is he going to -hide-? There isn't anything -to- hide.

Forum Explorer
2012-01-10, 12:38 PM
you're attributing tactics to Voldemort that he doesn't seem to use. Or did he use a fideleas charm to protect his Horcruxes?


Also the whole Contact Other Plane abuse is something that

a) doesn't work cause the DM would slap you

b) implies that only the caster has free will


As for the fight itself I thought Vecna was just wounded in that fight. He didn't actually die or lose. Plus he then turned his eye and hand into evil artifacts to corrupt more people and empower his followers. So I think he came out on top there regardless.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 12:39 PM
believe Vecna as a deity has been statted as having Divine Rank 10. One of his Domains is Knowledge and his Portfolio is specifically regarding secrets. Therefore, he can sense the discovery, recording, or sharing of any secret that affects at least five hundred people. Anything that has an impact on the outcome of the battle would affect who rules the Earth and would affect approximately seven billion people. You don't seem very knowledgeable about D&D divinity. Just be glad his Divine Rank isn't 16-20, otherwise he could detect secrets even if they affect only one person, and this Portfolio Sense would extend 16-20 weeks into the past and FUTURE.
Unless there were divine ranks, its no good.
Voldemort gets the handicap of facing Vecna in his lich-form.


Hide -what-? What is he going to -hide-? There isn't anything -to- hide.

I don't see how hiding something from someone who has access to the scry spell and a detailed description / familiarity of it works very well, let alone someone renowned for finding said things.
Precisely.

Gullintanni
2012-01-10, 12:42 PM
They are clearly not undead (not formerly living) nor is there any evidence that they come from another plane of existence. (Indeed there is very little evidence of anything coming from other planes of existence in HP).

No true. But they clearly have something to fight over. Start by hiding it, then Vecna can't find you nor stop you.
Didn't he get that title post godhood? Regardless does this title give him some power to be omniscient?

They don't really fit into any other category of creature from D&D. They're either one or the other; and,


You don't have to be formerly living to be undead.

This. In Dungeons & Dragons, Undead does not mean, "creature brought back after death" it means "animated by negative energy instead of positive energy". That's it. If you animated a rock with negative energy, it would be Undead. Or possibly an Undead Construct.

Forum Explorer
2012-01-10, 01:27 PM
They don't really fit into any other category of creature from D&D. They're either one or the other; and,



This. In Dungeons & Dragons, Undead does not mean, "creature brought back after death" it means "animated by negative energy instead of positive energy". That's it. If you animated a rock with negative energy, it would be Undead. Or possibly an Undead Construct.

Furthermore Undead by rebuked by channeling harmful positives energies into them or commanded by channeling negative energies. Which is kinda how that charm works to push Dementors away. (Using a positive memory to drive them away)

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-10, 01:55 PM
You don't have to be formerly living to be undead.


This. In Dungeons & Dragons, Undead does not mean, "creature brought back after death" it means "animated by negative energy instead of positive energy". That's it. If you animated a rock with negative energy, it would be Undead. Or possibly an Undead Construct.

Indeed, you don't even have to be undead if you were formerly living. The classic example is the creature produced by casting Animate Object on a dead guy. Like a zombie in almost every respect, but not animated by negative energy, and thus not undead.

Gullintanni
2012-01-10, 01:55 PM
Furthermore Undead by rebuked by channeling harmful positives energies into them or commanded by channeling negative energies. Which is kinda how that charm works to push Dementors away. (Using a positive memory to drive them away)

I forgot that was a viable defense against Dementors. Since Demons and Devils regard combat as pleasant, then wouldn't any Devil or Demon caught in the heat of battle be immune to a Dementor, by strict virtue of remembering their training, previous battles and the like? :smalltongue:


Indeed, you don't even have to be undead if you were formerly living. The classic example is the creature produced by casting Animate Object on a dead guy. Like a zombie in almost every respect, but not animated by negative energy, and thus not undead.

Doesn't that "Zombie" also avoid the partial action clauses inherent in the template? Thanks for the idea. I'm using this against my party. Fast zombies that are immune to turning and command undead. Hehehe...cruel.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 02:04 PM
Doesn't that "Zombie" also avoid the partial action clauses inherent in the template? Thanks for the idea. I'm using this against my party. Fast zombies that are immune to turning and command undead. Hehehe...cruel.
Ayup.
:smallsmile:
I think it helps if whoever's casting is a BBEG-a villain-of-the-week doesn't seem appropriate for that kind of ingenuity.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 02:16 PM
"No officer, I wasn't perverting the natural laws of the universe. I just wanted to animate this bomb Dragon...arm...chair...who wouldn't want a ride like that?"

The perfect defense for the perfect crime.

Weezer
2012-01-10, 02:40 PM
Doesn't that "Zombie" also avoid the partial action clauses inherent in the template? Thanks for the idea. I'm using this against my party. Fast zombies that are immune to turning and command undead. Hehehe...cruel.

Now that is a smart idea. Promptly stolen.

Coidzor
2012-01-10, 02:50 PM
Except we aren't really sure what light to moderate means. Suppose it translates to low to mid level spells? That is up to sixish. Probably more against stuff that dilutes its power against multiple targets. We do know it was used by the ministry for defense so it is combat grade stuff.

Considering the kinds of effects we see from wizards with an eye for battle and killing, and that their equivalent to teleport is something that is difficult to learn even for some fully trained wizards and is made parallel to a combination of the age limits on alcohol consumption and driving that certain places have, There's no reason to expect the rubric of what HP-verse considers moderate effects to line up with the 1-9 spell level schema, and to do so is rather silly without some actual argumentation and citing of examples to back up the decision.

Further, how, exactly, does Symbol of Pain dilute its power amongst multiple targets? Show this, please.


So your theory to his betrayal is actually it wasn't a betrayal at all because Vecna is so smart? ... Can my theory be Voldemort's loss is actually it wasn't a loss because Voldemort was so smart?

No, because Voldemort's loss didn't turn out to benefit him, it ended up just ending the series of books with him having lost.

Vecna's betrayal by Kas was before he achieved godhood, Vecna, as he stands at the moment is a god. So your attempt to equate the two things not only forgets the other half of what I said on the subject, but also fails to take into account what it is that you're equating.


So I really don't think Vecna wins because he's more powerful. He likely wins because he is seems merely careless, while Voldemort is actively self-defeating.

See, you've really got to back up that kind of thing when you're describing the personality that became the god of secrets. As has been said, the details of Vecna's betrayal by Kas are, lo and behold, secrets.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 02:54 PM
Not that I don't agree that Voldemort would fail. But he lost in his own story because he was fighting magic that no one truly understands. The power of love! :smalltongue: Which does not seem like something Vecna would have access to and if he did would likely act much in the same way it did when Voldy tried to manipulate it.

Now as for weapons destructive enough to defeat a lich. I believe fiendfire would do.

Not that Vecna wouldn't win, I just disagree on the total mismatch. Magic in any form is immensely powerful.

Edited for clarity.

Weezer
2012-01-10, 02:58 PM
One think about those Shield Amulets, Voldemort is never shown using them and the same goes for his Death Eaters. I think this means we don't even have to consider them as a possible defense, because he doesn't have them. That simplifies this argument a lot, removing the need to determine what spells are equivalent across the two universes.

Scarlet Knight
2012-01-10, 03:30 PM
But what if Voldemort had obtained the Nose of Vecna? It was the only thing holding him back as far as I can tell from becoming Hades.....

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 03:31 PM
Now as for weapons destructive enough to defeat a lich. I believe fiendfire would do.

I don't because it's just normal fire, the most common elemntal attack in all of D&D. It is not at all beyond reason to assume Vecna would have a spell that negates fire damage. There are several.

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-10, 03:41 PM
I don't because it's just normal fire

This is one of the most wrong statements that has been made so far in this thread.

(Vecna still wins, mind you. It's not even a contest. But... "just normal fire"? You, Tebryn, have been profoundly misinformed.)

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 03:44 PM
I've read the wiki and the books. I don't mean it's just...regular every day fire. I understand it's semi-sentient and cannot be put out with water but there are spells like that in D&D (Either but not both at the same time) that still get resisted by anything that resists fire. It isn't partial Unholy Damage/Fire Damage. It's not a fire that burns your soul. It is still just -fire- with bells and whistles attached which is all that matters for spells that protect or resist against fire.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fiendfyre

I'll even link it. What in that article shows that it is anything short of just being fire for the clarification of what would block it?

Inyssius Tor
2012-01-10, 03:57 PM
I've read the wiki and the books. I don't mean it's just...regular every day fire. I understand it's semi-sentient and cannot be put out with water but there are spells like that in D&D (Either but not both at the same time) that still get resisted by anything that resists fire. It isn't partial Unholy Damage/Fire Damage. It's not a fire that burns your soul.

One-eighth of Voldemort would beg to differ.

You do remember how Voldemort's Horcruxes were almost completely indestructible, right? I do believe it was something of a major plot point.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 04:00 PM
I've read the wiki and the books. I don't mean it's just...regular every day fire. I understand it's semi-sentient and cannot be put out with water but there are spells like that in D&D (Either but not both at the same time) that still get resisted by anything that resists fire. It isn't partial Unholy Damage/Fire Damage. It's not a fire that burns your soul. It is still just -fire- with bells and whistles attached which is all that matters for spells that protect or resist against fire.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fiendfyre

I'll even link it. What in that article shows that it is anything short of just being fire for the clarification of what would block it?

It can destroy a horcrux. Other known ways of killing them include HP basilisk venom and... That is really all I can think of.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 04:03 PM
Right, but it didn't burn the soul. It burned the container. A horcrux is just a poor man's phylacteries which are also "Really really hard to break." So...ya. Color me unimpressed. The creation of both are nearly identical even. There is nothing suggesting that other than super hot, somewhat special fire that Fiendfyre wouldn't be blocked by a simple Protection from Energy.


It can destroy a horcrux. Other known ways of killing them include HP basilisk venom and... That is really all I can think of.

Right...see above.

They can also be destroyed by "Magic" weapons like the Gryffindor's Sword and the killing curse. I ask again, how is this any different than a phylacteries? They're hard to destroy sure but it's not like doing it is an impossible accomplishment requiring some ancient and powerful demon ritual. It requires "EVIL DARK SCARY MAGIC" or...a fairly common encounter monster in D&D that fairly low level adventures can fight and kill.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 04:09 PM
Right, but it didn't burn the soul. It burned the container. A horcrux is just a poor man's phylacteries which are also "Really really hard to break." So...ya. Color me unimpressed. The creation of both are nearly identical even. There is nothing suggesting that other than super hot, somewhat special fire that Fiendfyre wouldn't be blocked by a simple Protection from Energy.



Right...see above.

Really really hard to break is an understatement. It takes incredibly powerful dark magic to destroy them, and they actively manipulate those around them to their advantage. Hell they're basically slightly weaker versions of the ring.

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 04:11 PM
I'm really sorry but something that's "Really really hard" in the Harry Potter world isn't saying much for the D&D world. Teleportation is "Really really hard" but in D&D they do it effortlessly. The argument just isn't valid here guys due to the scale of the whole thing. HP hard and D&D hard is like comparing modern video games for the mass market to Nintendo Hard games.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 04:17 PM
I'm really sorry but something that's "Really really hard" in the Harry Potter world isn't saying much for the D&D world. Teleportation is "Really really hard" but in D&D they do it effortlessly. The argument just isn't valid here guys due to the scale of the whole thing. HP hard and D&D hard is like comparing modern video games for the mass market to Nintendo Hard games.

Teleportation is placed on the same difficulty level as driving. And anyone with even a modicum of practice (Voldemort) does it effortlessly. In fact magic in general seems much less draining in the HP universe. They use it for simple everyday things because they can without any extra preparation that would make the time saved worthless. True it is less exponential than D&D in growth terms but any magic at all allows one to do some incredibly dangerous things even to a lich.

Once more I'll say Vecna probably wins but I'd argue that is because Vecna is more likely to use his power effectively than Voldemort is.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-10, 04:17 PM
Myself, I suspect fiendfyre is something more along the lines of a Searing spell, or possibly doing unholy damage, or perhaps effectively dealing untyped damage. I think while it might not be subject to your bog standard elemental fire-protection (at least not completely, they might offer some protection, depending), it would probably not be an insta-killer either, on Vecna.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 04:21 PM
The only way I see Voldemort having a chance is if he kept his distance with teleportation while springing his more deadly magic against Vecna forcing the lich to use up any anti magic spells he has prepared. Why I don't think it would work is because it would be incredibly risky and one wrong move places everything in Vecna's court.

Eldan
2012-01-10, 04:41 PM
Not that I don't agree that Voldemort would fail. But he lost in his own story because he was fighting magic that no one truly understands. The power of love! :smalltongue: Which does not seem like something Vecna would have access to and if he did would likely act much in the same way it did when Voldy tried to manipulate it.


Clearly, Voldemort's opponent should be Strahd von Zarovich, then. :smalltongue:

Lamech
2012-01-10, 05:11 PM
because it's just normal fire,


I've read the wiki and the books. I don't mean it's just...regular every day fire. I understand it's semi-sentient and cannot be put out with water but there are spells like that in D&D (Either but not both at the same time) that still get resisted by anything that resists fire. It isn't partial Unholy Damage/Fire Damage. It's not a fire that burns your soul. It is still just -fire- with bells and whistles attached which is all that matters for spells that protect or resist against fire.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fiendfyre

I'll even link it. What in that article shows that it is anything short of just being fire for the clarification of what would block it?
Well lets see... the very first sentence says "Its not normal fire." Furthermore Horcruxes resist fire. Indeed they are immune to normal fire. Yet it still got destroyed by fiendfyre, so it appears that things that resist normal fire (like Horcruxes) still will go down hard to fiendfyre.



I'm really sorry but something that's "Really really hard" in the Harry Potter world isn't saying much for the D&D world. Teleportation is "Really really hard" but in D&D they do it effortlessly. The argument just isn't valid here guys due to the scale of the whole thing. HP hard and D&D hard is like comparing modern video games for the mass market to Nintendo Hard games.
Umm... you have them backwards. In ADnD Teleportation takes 50(?) minutes of preparing the spell, then can be cast. Once. It takes up a spell slot. It takes a reasonably high intellect to master, and a lot of practice in magic besides. Furthermore unless you shell out for teleport without error (actually did that exist in ADnD?) the level of danger is significant enough that routine use is a terrible idea.

In comparison teleportation in Harry Potter is the equivalent of driving. It is safe enough for routine use. It is learned by teenagers. It takes little preparation.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 05:26 PM
It also makes a loud popping sound that makes scry-'n-die almost impossible against someone with ears and Time Stop (or hell, anyone with the spell slots to go around with day-long defensive buffs on 24/7 and no need to eat, sleep, or eliminate). Teleport and TWE (you think something with that clunky a name didn't come from a pre-3e source?) lack this disadvantage.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 05:41 PM
One-eighth of Voldemort would beg to differ.

You do remember how Voldemort's Horcruxes were almost completely indestructible, right? I do believe it was something of a major plot point.

THat could be used to argue Voldemort made really strong phylacteries or HP magic is really weak.


Really really hard to break is an understatement. It takes incredibly powerful dark magic to destroy them, and they actively manipulate those around them to their advantage. Hell they're basically slightly weaker versions of the ring.
Uh...
Right.
Except the ring had very specific conditions under which it could be destroyed.

Could a Horcrux withstand a sphere of annihilation? A vorpal blade? Launched via an arrow into the heart of Concordant Opposition?


Myself, I suspect fiendfyre is something more along the lines of a Searing spell, or possibly doing unholy damage, or perhaps effectively dealing untyped damage. I think while it might not be subject to your bog standard elemental fire-protection (at least not completely, they might offer some protection, depending), it would probably not be an insta-killer either, on Vecna.



Well lets see... the very first sentence says "Its not normal fire." Furthermore Horcruxes resist fire. Indeed they are immune to normal fire. Yet it still got destroyed by fiendfyre, so it appears that things that resist normal fire (like Horcruxes) still will go down hard to fiendfyre.
Again with the 'pedia articles.
The fire isn't normal because it follows you and seeks out prey and makes beasts.


In comparison teleportation in Harry Potter is the equivalent of driving. It is safe enough for routine use. It is learned by teenagers. It takes little preparation.
Hey, you've got a point there.
Atleast we can be confident that Vecna matches Voldemort in wealth; so Vecna can simply buy an item that will consistently and safely-heck, he can make it himself with the Magical Research rules.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 05:51 PM
How is a universe that uses pocket dimensions for routine camping trips and time travel to accommodate for an honors student's schedule considered weak on any external magical universe scale?

As for the popping sound made by teleportation I imagine that could be fixed with a simple silencing charm.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 05:56 PM
How is a universe that uses pocket dimensions for routine camping trips and time travel to accommodate for an honors student's schedule considered weak on any external magical universe scale?

Because the comparing universe has mass produced bags that do the same thing.
When hermione did it, she was called brilliant.

In D&D, if you haven't got a a bag of holding, you're an idiot.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 05:58 PM
Because the comparing universe has mass produced bags that do the same thing.
When hermione did it, she was called brilliant.

In D&D, if you haven't got a a bag of holding, you're an idiot.

Right, wizards are dumb. This is why Vecna would win. Not because the HP universe doesn't bring enough firepower.

Tiki Snakes
2012-01-10, 06:00 PM
There's also the fact that their most dangerous offensive magic is almost as dangerous as a moderately sized handgun, to be fair, compared to the city-levelling, soul scourging spells of doom that the D&Dverse brings to the table.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 06:09 PM
Right, wizards are dumb. This is why Vecna would win. Not because the HP universe doesn't bring enough firepower.
it doesn't have the firepower.
How does the ONE killing curse compare to the myriad of ways AD&D has to kill you.
For Every spell in HP, there's a lethal spell in D&D.

D&D creates new planes and world and races, while a neat bit of magic in Harry Potter is dividing your soul in 8 pieces.
Woooooooooh.

But this isn't about whether Rowling's universe matches.
This is about Vecna's inevitable curbstompon Voldemort.

Man, the Playground is a weird place.
:smalltongue:
On one sub-forum I can be berated and ridiculed for arguing a D&D Wizard isn't completely unstoppable force no matter what preparations are made.
Only in Media Discussions could I find someone arguing parity between said wizards and a universe where achieving god-hood, establishing a demi-plane and achieving actual immortality is IMPOSSIBLE.
:smallsmile:

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 07:10 PM
Ridicule was never my intent, and I apologize if I offended.

All I am trying to put forward is that with the right application of power it is possible to defeat a stronger force. This being the principal of most boss fights in video games. Voldemort has the means to defeat a powerful AD&D lich by using the greater magical endurance shown by the HP universe if he is very careful not to get caught. I agree that he probably does not have the wits to manage this.

And magic in the Harry Potter universe does not really have set limitations beyond "it is impossible to conjure food, also no teleporting in hogwarts." Avada Kadavra isn't used because it is the most powerful piece of dark magic available but because it is very effective. What I'm trying to say is don't knock a handgun. Especially one that just kills things, regardless of where it hits or how big they are.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 07:23 PM
Ridicule was never my intent, and I apologize if I offended.
Never said you were-but I know I've come off pretty silly in threads about the awesomeness of wizards but that's not for here.


All I am trying to put forward is that with the right application of power it is possible to defeat a stronger force. This being the principal of most boss fights in video games. Voldemort has the means to defeat a powerful AD&D lich by using the greater magical endurance shown by the HP universe if he is very careful not to get caught. I agree that he probably does not have the wits to manage this.
I disagreed. I believe that he doesn't have the resources to win this any battle with Vecna.
Since this greater magical endurance doesn't equate to spell resistance, and Vecna will likely be using death spells and devasting magic that delivers sheer damage I don't hold out much hope for him.
If they bring in their minions, at most, Voldemort could have an England dominated by evil wizards while Vecna can summon forces from the bowels of hell, as well as whatever kingdoms and secret societies are under his swway.


And magic in the Harry Potter universe does not really have set limitations beyond "it is impossible to conjure food, also no teleporting in hogwarts." Avada Kadavra isn't used because it is the most powerful piece of dark magic available but because it is very effective. What I'm trying to say is don't knock a handgun. Especially one that just kills things, regardless of where it hits or how big they are.
We're knocking the handgun because Vecna as a lich is immune to death effects and Voldemort heavily favours it, never changing strategy.
And its called the Unforgiveable Curse for a reason, it's the most readily available killing spell available to a wizard.
It's Voldemort's hand gun, but Vecna has tanks, and can call in air support, groudn support and sea bombardment easily, beside having his own greater range of weapons.
Like magic jar...
...that would render Voldemort without a body, and no spells dependent on his Horcruxes once more.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 07:37 PM
Never said you were-but I know I've come off pretty silly in threads about the awesomeness of wizards but that's not for here.


I disagreed. I believe that he doesn't have the resources to win this any battle with Vecna.
Since this greater magical endurance doesn't equate to spell resistance, and Vecna will likely be using death spells and devasting magic that delivers sheer damage I don't hold out much hope for him.
If they bring in their minions, at most, Voldemort could have an England dominated by evil wizards while Vecna can summon forces from the bowels of hell, as well as whatever kingdoms and secret societies are under his swway.


We're knocking the handgun because Vecna as a lich is immune to death effects and Voldemort heavily favours it, never changing strategy.
And its called the Unforgiveable Curse for a reason, it's the most readily available killing spell available to a wizard.
It's Voldemort's hand gun, but Vecna has tanks, and can call in air support, groudn support and sea bombardment easily, beside having his own greater range of weapons.
Like magic jar...
...that would render Voldemort without a body, and no spells dependent on his Horcruxes once more.

I was going to say "don't be ridiculous if Voldemort uses it once and it fails he'll just teleport away and come up with a better plan it's not like he ever tries it a second time on an opponent proven to be immune to-"

Yeah Voldy goes moldy pretty fast. I'd still hold HP magic has the chops to take down an epic level wizard, but it would be an uphill battle requiring more intelligent wizards than we see in the series.

Edit: On the other hand. In regards to the immunity... I feel we've met an unstoppable object meets an unmovable wall. Avada Kadavra ends the life of anything it hits with the exception of those protected by the powerful protection of true love. Liches lives cannot be ended by spells fashioned to that purpose.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 07:41 PM
Idunno.
its implied the wizards went into hiding because of the witch-hunts.
If no wizard had managed to install themself as a god, in what's a reflection of our real world, or even created a demi-plane, I doubt they could.
Epic-level magic is nothing to sniff at.

Xondoure
2012-01-10, 07:45 PM
No need to leave for another dimension when you can simply ward off the places you live and twist space around your finger for a little extra room.

And I can't quite remember where but I think it was either a monologue in Bins or part of the source books (quidditch through the ages, fantastic beasts and where to find them) where they mention wizards and witches who would let themselves be chased by a mob for a laugh never being in any real danger due to magic.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 07:55 PM
No need to leave for another dimension when you can simply ward off the places you live and twist space around your finger for a little extra room.
I was talking about the ability, not the necessity or the strategy.


And I can't quite remember where but I think it was either a monologue in Bins or part of the source books (quidditch through the ages, fantastic beasts and where to find them) where they mention wizards and witches who would let themselves be chased by a mob for a laugh never being in any real danger due to magic.
Yeah, some woman who let herself be burned at the stake for fun, while having a magic charm on.

Still, no legends of god-hood or wizards burning swathes of land when they find their favorite magazine isn't in stock.
Vecna's has wiped out cities.
No such actions have been indicated in HP, where the using Muggles as toys prompted disgust.

Now a REAL match-up would be Raistlin Majere with Fistandantilus against Vecna.

Lamech
2012-01-10, 07:56 PM
THat could be used to argue Voldemort made really strong phylacteries or HP magic is really weak.Well since they so far seem industructable barring powerful dark magic, that would imply that are actually rather strong.


Uh...
Right.
Except the ring had very specific conditions under which it could be destroyed.

Could a Horcrux withstand a sphere of annihilation? A vorpal blade? Launched via an arrow into the heart of Concordant Opposition?You are correct that they are not on the level of the one ring. More like one of the lesser rings. Although since the Horcuxes have so far only been vunerable to dark magic it would seem likely that the vorpal blade would bounce, as would the Concordant Opposition, but we don't really have enough detail either way.



Again with the 'pedia articles.
The fire isn't normal because it follows you and seeks out prey and makes beasts.One, that wasn't even my link. Two, what is your problem with actually bringing references? Three, no, it fiendfyre destroyed the normal fire immune Horcrux.


Hey, you've got a point there.
Atleast we can be confident that Vecna matches Voldemort in wealth; so Vecna can simply buy an item that will consistently and safely-heck, he can make it himself with the Magical Research rules.First you don't get to go buy items in ADnD, magic items are rare and expensive, generally are not for sale, and when they are aren't the innane 3.5 rules for buying stuff.

Do liches even have the con to make permanent items? And have you seen how absurdly hard it is for wizards to make items in ADnD?


We're knocking the handgun because Vecna as a lich is immune to death effects and Voldemort heavily favours it, never changing strategy.
And its called the Unforgiveable Curse for a reason, it's the most readily available killing spell available to a wizard.
It's Voldemort's hand gun, but Vecna has tanks, and can call in air support, groudn support and sea bombardment easily, beside having his own greater range of weapons.Vecna's clearly not alive. It would have the same effect it has when it hits a wall. Which is to say blasting it to bits. Vecna respawns if he eats that.

Like magic jar...
...that would render Voldemort without a body, and no spells dependent on his Horcruxes once more. Doesn't that only give you a generalized idea of who is nearby passed of the strength of there soul? Which in DnD translates to power? And in HP land translates to not having killed anyone and especially not made any Horcruxes? Vecna would end up in the body of the newest death eater, not have his spell component pouch be immediatly detected when any active spells the death eater had cut off and promptly killed since he already used his one combat action? And possibly depending on the wording of magic jar, I think he might even have his soul depart for the afterlife.


it doesn't have the firepower.
How does the ONE killing curse compare to the myriad of ways AD&D has to kill you.
For Every spell in HP, there's a lethal spell in D&D.

D&D creates new planes and world and races, while a neat bit of magic in Harry Potter is dividing your soul in 8 pieces.
Woooooooooh.There are plenty of other attack spells. Indeed if you look at the battles in the movie the AK is NOT the standard attack. Also HP magic does create new races. Plus the Room of Requirement seems like its got a whole collection of demi-planes inside.

And HP magic can do a lot of things DnD magic has a lot of trouble with. Affect the minds of every other person in existance so they can no longer find a place, even if looking right at it. Not an illusion, but a spell that makes it impossible to realize a fact. Can DnD do that? And time travel, can't forget time travel.



There's also the fact that their most dangerous offensive magic is almost as dangerous as a moderately sized handgun, to be fair, compared to the city-levelling, soul scourging spells of doom that the D&Dverse brings to the table. I would argue that there are deadlier magics. Like the fire spell that Dumbledore stopped the zombies with. Or the curse that blew up 12(?) people. Or the ever wonderful fiendfyre. (Make sure to get to a safe distance after casting.) Also no save death effects start at 9th level spells in DnD. Ones that can drop a big dragon start at never. Ones that are immune to magic countermeasures start at never in DnD.

averagejoe
2012-01-10, 08:00 PM
Re: Voldy's potential for firepower.

It's been shown that multiple spells cast simultaneously have a more powerful effect, and potential other side effects. So all Voldy needs to do is get about thirty wands, tie them together with twine or something, then use them all at once. HP magic works by just holding a wand and saying words, so there shouldn't be a huge problem with this. Probably wants to keep a backup for anything that requires complex movement or something.

I mean, he wouldn't. I essentially agree with what Xondoure has been saying. But the potential to do some nasty things is there. Nasty enough? Probably not. You'd still need to be clever. But still pretty nasty.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 08:19 PM
There's a definite focusing of willpower through a wand, though, in addition to the gestures and magic words. One wizard splitting his magic between multiple focuses would likely be...bad. If it were that easy to use multiple wands, even for the same spell, at least one Wizard somewhere in the novels would have at least brought it up. Rowling Wizards are dumb, but they aren't so dumb as to not even consider John Woo style, at least.

Also, I'm done arguing with Lamech, as he or she seems intent on cleaving exactly to the letter of the rules of AD&D while ignoring any such specific limitations on Potter magic (in those few cases where the narrative makes them explicit in the story).

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 08:21 PM
Also, I'm done arguing with Lamech, as he or she seems intent on cleaving exactly to the letter of the rules of AD&D while ignoring any such specific limitations on Potter magic (in those few cases where the narrative makes them explicit in the story).
I'm with you on this one.

Unless anyone want to port Voldemort and Vecna to a neutral gaming system and have them go at each other, I think I'm done here.

Traab
2012-01-10, 09:25 PM
D&D creates new planes and world and races, while a neat bit of magic in Harry Potter is dividing your soul in 8 pieces.
Woooooooooh.

Id like to include space expansion charms in with the rather impressive stuff hp magic can do. Its not making a demi plane, but its literally creating an extra pocket of reality right there on the spot. All of a sudden that 10x10 room is 50x50 and nothing outside the room is effected in the slightest. Does D&D have anything like the room of requirement? A place where you can go and ask for anything you want and it will deliver it free of charge and regardless of level/class?

Tebryn
2012-01-10, 09:28 PM
Id like to include space expansion charms in with the rather impressive stuff hp magic can do. Its not making a demi plane, but its literally creating an extra pocket of reality right there on the spot. All of a sudden that 10x10 room is 50x50 and nothing outside the room is effected in the slightest. Does D&D have anything like the room of requirement? A place where you can go and ask for anything you want and it will deliver it free of charge and regardless of level/class?

What do you mean "Does D&D" have something like that? It's fairly dependent on the DM in that regard. I'd say an item of Wish without DM intervention would do that. As for "Extra room" D&D has that as well like the Magic Mansion line (that had a lot more spells back in Vecna's day) but goes beyond that with allowing individuals to make demi-planes out of no where.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 09:33 PM
You can get a Room of Requirement that serves most of the non-Plot Advancing Artifact purposes with Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm), and there are a few magic items that will serve you up a small assortment of mundane goods on command.

Traab
2012-01-10, 09:46 PM
You can get a Room of Requirement that serves most of the non-Plot Advancing Artifact purposes with Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm), and there are a few magic items that will serve you up a small assortment of mundane goods on command.

Nerd covered what I was asking Teb. I was more asking about specific spells or items than home brewed stuff or tweaks to the rules that the dm has to hand wave in. But even so, I still include those abilities as fairly impressive, if below the truly high end magic D&D can dish out. Id say harry potter combat magic is very low level compared to D&D, but its utility spells are at least another tier or two higher on that scale, and they have a large number of supplementary items and support spells that help out a ton, potions and the like.

They may not be able to cast "cure moderate wounds" but they can stop healing in seconds, repair bones, numb pain, etc etc etc. In reality, its a more "realistic" approach to magical healing than D&D, even if only because requiring a cleric to have separate spell slots open for "Heal broken bones" and "Replenish blood" would mean the game had gotten so far beyond complex as to be unplayable, if damage got that specifically determined. Can you imagine determining damage if it went like that?

"Ok, your fireball connected with the goblin, now to roll for burn damage. Ok, the goblin received 2nd degree burns to its extremities, and 3rd degree to its torso. Rolling for physical handicap. Ok, goblin is unable to use his right arm or leg. His left leg is still useable but without both he cant move very far. His left arm is hurt but he can still swing his weapon at a -4 attack penalty. Rolling for pain damage. Goblin is unable to focus enough to attack due to pain this round."

A single battle would take hours just to cover everything. brrr!

Forum Explorer
2012-01-10, 09:53 PM
I was talking about the ability, not the necessity or the strategy.


Yeah, some woman who let herself be burned at the stake for fun, while having a magic charm on.

Still, no legends of god-hood or wizards burning swathes of land when they find their favorite magazine isn't in stock.
Vecna's has wiped out cities.
No such actions have been indicated in HP, where the using Muggles as toys prompted disgust.

Now a REAL match-up would be Raistlin Majere with Fistandantilus against Vecna.

Shouldn't she just suffocate? Afterall its not the fire that kills you.


By the way Raistlin Majere vs Vecna would be awesome indeed. But what do mean with Fistandantilus?

PallElendro
2012-01-10, 09:55 PM
Vecna. Already a lesser god.

In Vecna's victory, he'll do "Gotcher nose!" and go "Oh, wait. Lol". Or since he's the god of secrets, he'll keep Voldemort's nose location a secret.
lulz

Coidzor
2012-01-10, 10:10 PM
Shouldn't she just suffocate? Afterall its not the fire that kills you.

I imagine something like the bubblehead charm was used to either obviate her need to breath or to allow her to survive the smoke... or she made the flames real big and just aparated(apparated?) away before the erotic asphyxiation got too bad until she did it one too many times and the villagers ended up with a corpse in a very awkward state in the middle of their bonfire, and this was all glossed over.



By the way Raistlin Majere vs Vecna would be awesome indeed. But what do mean with Fistandantilus?

Had some sort of powerful entity riding around inside his head and/or soul for a bit, thought that powered him up to some amount and got him godhood. I'm not much of a Dragonlance fan though, so I'm probably getting it garbled.

Forum Explorer
2012-01-10, 10:35 PM
Had some sort of powerful entity riding around inside his head and/or soul for a bit, thought that powered him up to some amount and got him godhood. I'm not much of a Dragonlance fan though, so I'm probably getting it garbled.

Pretty close. He was riding around/leeching off Raistilin for a while but eventually Raist went back in time and they dueled where the victor absorbed the soul and all of the power of the loser. No one is quite sure who actually won the duel as their personalities and memories merged too much for even the victor to tell them apart though its implied that Raist was the winner in later novels. Then he proceeded to go beyond the impossible and take out the gods destroying the universe in the process.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 10:56 PM
Then he proceeded to go beyond the impossible and take out the gods destroying the universe in the process.
But his brother's love made it all okay.

Before I happened upon D&D, I ranked Raistlin as the epitome of what a wizard could be-Gandalf, Dumbledor, and yes, Voldemort, have nothing on him.
Of course, factoring in the D&D game reduces hims significantly.

I'm a little sad 4th Edition didn't pull out Dragonlance for another go.
Was happy to see Dark Sun though.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 11:04 PM
Nerd covered what I was asking Teb. I was more asking about specific spells or items than home brewed stuff or tweaks to the rules that the dm has to hand wave in. But even so, I still include those abilities as fairly impressive, if below the truly high end magic D&D can dish out. Id say harry potter combat magic is very low level compared to D&D, but its utility spells are at least another tier or two higher on that scale, and they have a large number of supplementary items and support spells that help out a ton, potions and the like.

They may not be able to cast "cure moderate wounds" but they can stop healing in seconds, repair bones, numb pain, etc etc etc. In reality, its a more "realistic" approach to magical healing than D&D, even if only because requiring a cleric to have separate spell slots open for "Heal broken bones" and "Replenish blood" would mean the game had gotten so far beyond complex as to be unplayable, if damage got that specifically determined. Can you imagine determining damage if it went like that?

"Ok, your fireball connected with the goblin, now to roll for burn damage. Ok, the goblin received 2nd degree burns to its extremities, and 3rd degree to its torso. Rolling for physical handicap. Ok, goblin is unable to use his right arm or leg. His left leg is still useable but without both he cant move very far. His left arm is hurt but he can still swing his weapon at a -4 attack penalty. Rolling for pain damage. Goblin is unable to focus enough to attack due to pain this round."

A single battle would take hours just to cover everything. brrr!

Traab, that's just the difference between a novel with descriptive phrases and a game with abstracted mechanics. I will say Harry Potter is probably on par with the "standard" D&D world in utility magic, though. They've got a basically modern society apparently functioning without electricity, first off.

Forum Explorer
2012-01-10, 11:10 PM
But his brother's love made it all okay.

Before I happened upon D&D, I ranked Raistlin as the epitome of what a wizard could be-Gandalf, Dumbledor, and yes, Voldemort, have nothing on him.
Of course, factoring in the D&D game reduces hims significantly.

I'm a little sad 4th Edition didn't pull out Dragonlance for another go.
Was happy to see Dark Sun though.

did they ever stat him up?

Traab
2012-01-10, 11:17 PM
Traab, that's just the difference between a novel with descriptive phrases and a game with abstracted mechanics. I will say Harry Potter is probably on par with the "standard" D&D world in utility magic, though. They've got a basically modern society apparently functioning without electricity, first off.

I agree, in fact that was my point. I said that the only reason why clerics had cure moderate wounds and not, heal broken bone, was because it would create a ludicrous level of complexity to the game. And I wouldnt go so far as to say "on par" but they do have some fairly high tier analogs to D&D spells in the area of utility. D&D take them further, and do them better at the truly high end of magic, but the mid to upper levels are there. Too bad your average level 5 wizard has more firepower than voldemorts entire inner circle. :smalltongue:

Kyberwulf
2012-01-10, 11:41 PM
Hmm.. I was under the impression that Since he would have defeated Harry Potter, he would get .. those things what are they called from the Deathly Hallows.. The wand, The Cloak and .. the other thing.

How would that help him and the Deatheaters in this match-up?

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 11:43 PM
Hmm.. I was under the impression that Since he would have defeated Harry Potter, he would get .. those things what are they called from the Deathly Hallows.. The wand, The Cloak and .. the other thing.

How would that help him and the Deatheaters in this match-up?

Voldemort didn't even know what those were. Even if he did, the Resurrection Stone is completely useless from a tactical standpoint and the Invisibility Cloak is just a permanent version of something that's commonly available to HP wizards in a temporary form.

EDIT: Assuming he did kill Harry himself, though, he would have a functional Elder Wand. That's...something.

Lamech
2012-01-10, 11:46 PM
I agree, in fact that was my point. I said that the only reason why clerics had cure moderate wounds and not, heal broken bone, was because it would create a ludicrous level of complexity to the game. And I wouldnt go so far as to say "on par" but they do have some fairly high tier analogs to D&D spells in the area of utility. D&D take them further, and do them better at the truly high end of magic, but the mid to upper levels are there. Too bad your average level 5 wizard has more firepower than voldemorts entire inner circle. :smalltongue:

Fireball? One fireball? Better than say... Fiendfyre? I think you have that backwards again. Indeed do any ADnD spells match Fiendfyre for power in that area?

Elder Wand: Ooo... he has that working for him? According to the legend that makes it impossible to lose a duel. According to what we have seen it simply makes your spells a bunch more powerful and able to do otherwise impossible things. (Fully restoring a wand, making your one target stun spell AoE*, and so forth.) It would probably make Voldemort's shield nigh-unbreakable though.

*Although that was also Dumbeldore so its hard to tell how much was the wand and how much was Dumbeldore.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-10, 11:48 PM
Fireball? One fireball? Better than say... Fiendfyre? I think you have that backwards again. Indeed do any ADnD spells match Fiendfyre for power in that area?

Flamestrike (due to Divine/untyped damage mixed in with the fire) would have been good for breaking an evil artifact. For a continuous, sentient flame, you could always summon something in the Fire Elemental family. Both at once is trickier without some of 3rd's weirder metamagic feats.

Lamech
2012-01-10, 11:52 PM
Flamestrike (due to Divine/untyped damage mixed in with the fire) would have been good for breaking an evil artifact. For a continuous, sentient flame, you could always summon something in the Fire Elemental family. Both at once is trickier without some of 3rd's weirder metamagic feats.
Strangely Horcruxes seem vulnerable to Dark magic. Flamestrike is both not continuous and much smaller. And really the sentience is only useful if your leaving, its a pain in the ass otherwise.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-10, 11:55 PM
did they ever stat him up?
For the Dragonlance Roleplaying Game? I'd assume so...
Lemme check...

Yes! Legends of the Twins, Page 83.
His brother Caramon also has stats.

Raistlin Majere,
Master of Past and Present CR 28
Male civilized human wizard 7/wizard of High Sorcery
(Black) 7/loremaster 8/archmage 5, Master of the
Tower of Palanthas
NE Medium humanoid (human)
Source Towers of High Sorcery (Master of the Tower
template)
Init +3; Senses arcane sight, see invisibility; Listen +1, Spot
+1
Languages Abanasinian, Common, Draconic, Elven,
InfernalB, IstaranB, Magius, Nerakan, Solamnic; tongues

AC 26, touch 20, flat-footed 22; dodge trick
hp 44 (27 HD)
SR 26 (staff), 23 (when at Tower of Palanthas)
Fort +9, Ref +13, Will +20

Spd 30 ft.
Melee Staff of Magius +15 (1d6+1 plus arcane fire) or
dagger of Magius +16 (1d4+2/19-20)
Base Atk +13; Grp +12
Atk Options weapon trick
Special Actions arcane fire (+15 ranged touch, 600 ft.
range, deals 5d6 damage + 1d6 damage per spell
level used to create, may be delivered through Staff of
Magius), magic of darkness 3/day, magic of fear, magic
of pain 3/day
Combat Gear scrolls (mass cat’s grace, chain lightning (DC
22), mass hold person (DC 24), maximized lightning bolt
(DC 19), mass suggestion (DC 24), summon monster VI,
waves of fatigue; CL 26th)
Spells Prepared (CL 28th, +13 melee touch, +16 ranged
touch, includes spell power +1, all spells of 3rd level or
lower are quickened)
10th—maximized delayed blast fireball (DC 23)
9th—dominate monster (DC 26), energy drainMT (DC
26), power word kill, time stop
8th—demand, horrid wilting (DC 25), polar ray,
protection from spellsMT
7th—greater arcane sight, banishment (DC 23),
destructionMT, greater teleport, maximized ice storm (DC 20), power word blind
6th—antimagic fieldMT, maximized lightning bolt (DC 19), planar binding (DC 22), shadow walk, mass
suggestion (DC 23), undeath to death (DC 23)
5th—dominate person (DC 22), feeblemind (DC 22),
maximized scorching ray, teleport, true seeingMT
4th—animate dead, bestow curse (DC 21), crushing
despair (DC 21), divinationMT, greater invisibility,
phantasmal killer (DC 20)
3rd—clairaudience/clairvoyanceMT, deep slumber (DC 20), dispel magic, fireball (DC 19), hold person (DC 20), vampiric touch (DC 20), wind wall
2nd—detect thoughtsMT, protection from arrows, gust of wind (DC 18), knock (2), resist energy (2), shatter(DC 18)
1st—endure elements, expeditious retreat, magic auraMT, sleep (DC 18), true strike (3)
0—ghost sound, prestidigitation (2), touch of fatigue (DC 17)
MT Master of the Tower domain spell.
Abilities Str 9, Dex 16, Con 9, Int 22, Wis 12, Cha 10

SQ arcane research +3, dodge trick, high arcana, lore
+15, loremaster secrets (applicable knowledge, dodge
trick, more newfound arcana, weapon trick), moon
magic (Nuitari), order secrets, permanent resistance
(included), improved tower resources
Raistlin has chosen not to take an arcane focus as a Wizard
of High Sorcery.
Feats Automatic Quicken Spell†, Brew PotionB, Combat
Casting, Magical Aptitude, Improved Spell Capacity
(10th), Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Reserves of
Strength††, Scribe ScrollB, Skill Focus (Knowledge
[arcana]), Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spellcasting
Prodigy†††, Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Focus
(necromancy)
† Epic-level feat (all 0-level, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells
may be cast as quickened with no adjustment to spell
level)
†† New feat from the DRAGONLANCE Campaign Setting
††† New feat from this book.
Skills Concentration +29, Craft (alchemy) +18, Decipher
Script +19, Heal +9, Intimidate +10, Knowledge
(arcana) +42, Knowledge (history) +16, Knowledge
(the planes) +30, Knowledge (religion) +20, Profession
(herbalist) +11, Search +16, Sleight of Hand +10,
Spellcraft +46 (+48 with scrolls), Use Magic Device +11
(+15 with scrolls)
Possessions combat gear plus bracers of armor +6, Staff of
Magius (+2 spell-storing quarterstaff, see below), dagger
of Magius (+3 silver dagger, undetectable by magic or
searches when carried), black robes, herbalist’s supplies,
scrolls, ink, writing supplies, traveling chest (trapped
with CR 8 power word stun trap), dragon orb
Spellbook As the Master of the Tower of Palanthas,
Raistlin has access to all common and unnamed spells
from the Player’s Handbook, DRAGONLANCE Campaign
Setting and other d20 DRAGONLANCE sourcebooks.

Black Robe Order Secrets (Su): Magic of Darkness 3/day
(half the damage dealt by a chosen spell is negative
energy damage), Magic of Fear (as full round action,
cast any spell that deals damage and is normally a
standard action in order to demoralize one target
within 30 ft., Intimidate check gains bonus equal to
spell level), Magic of Pain 3/day (spell that deals hit
point damage causes target to suffer –2 penalty to
attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 round,
Fort save DC 10 plus spell level negates, caster takes
1d6 damage).
High Arcana: Arcane fire, mastery of counterspelling
(countered spells are turned back upon the caster),
mastery of elements (change energy descriptor of
spell cast), mastery of shaping (may create holes or
unaffected areas within the area of spells cast), spell
power +1. Raistlin has permanently sacrificed one 5thlevel,
one 6th-level, one 7th-level, one 8th-level and one
9th-level spell slots to master these abilities.
Lore (Ex): A loremaster has the ability to know legends or
information regarding various topics, just as a bard can.
The loremaster makes a lore check with a +15 bonus.
Master of the Tower Traits: Raistlin may prepare one
bonus spell per level from the Knowledge, Magic or
Necromancy cleric domains as arcane spells when he
prepares his other spells at the Tower, and gains spell
resistance 23 within the Tower of Palanthas.
Staff of Magius: This +2 spell-storing quarterstaff was made
famous by the legendary wizard Magius, but truly came
into its own through its use by Raistlin Majere. The
following abilities reflect the additional power unlocked
by Raistlin, and replace the base statistics provided
on page 90 of the DRAGONLANCE Campaign Setting.
The staff grants the bearer spell resistance 23, a +6
deflection bonus to AC, and any spell cast by the bearer
with the mind-affecting, air, or light descriptors may be
extended, empowered, or enlarged as if the staff were a
greater metamagic rod. Only one metamagic effect may
be used on any given spell, but each effect may be used
up to three times per day, and does not alter the level
of the spell. In addition to its spell-storing quality, an
archmage with the arcane fire ability may deliver his
arcane fire damage through the staff as a melee touch
attack. The staff has the following additional powers
usable at will—feather fall (on the bearer only), daylight
(on the staff). CL 18th.

At this time of his life, following his successful takeover of
the Tower of High Sorcery at Palanthas, Raistlin Majere is
able to turn his complete attention to his own ambitious
designs. He is cold, calculating, devious, and aloof. He has
become a renegade wizard, refusing to obey the laws of
the Conclave. By rights, he should be hunted down and
destroyed, but the Conclave fears him.
Some believe that Raistlin has isolated himself in the
impregnable tower because he is afraid of the Conclave’s
retribution. In truth, he keeps to himself because he detests
the company of others and wishes to follow his dark plans
without the distraction of the outside world.
He has only one apprentice, Dalamar the Dark — a
young dark elf who has taken the Black Robes. Dalamar
Eras of Legend S 85
is a spy for the Conclave — a fact that Raistlin knows.
Raistlin chooses to let Dalamar delude himself into
believing that he has fooled his Shalafi. He will act upon
this knowledge at a time he deems suitable.
Raistlin has cut himself off from ties that he believes
weaken him. These include links to his old friends and,
especially, his twin brother, Caramon. Raistlin is not above
reestablishing these ties if and when he decides that they
can be of benefit to him.
Raistlin’s current goal is to enter the portal to the Abyss,
there to challenge the Dark Queen to battle, defeat her, and
take her place as ruler of the Abyss. To achieve this, he has
to travel back in time — a monumental undertaking.
He must also have an unlikely ally. A cleric of Good
must assist him to open the portal. Raistlin chooses
the Lady Crysania, Revered Daughter of Paladine. In
this, Raistlin plays a dangerous — and some might say
impossible — game. He must tempt Crysania to embrace
the powers of darkness, all the while urging her to remain
steadfast in her faith. He sees that Crysania herself has a
flaw — she is also ambitious. He plans to use this to lure
her to her doom. He cares nothing about her, manipulating
and seducing her to do his will.
Raistlin has let pride and ambition blind him, much
as pride and ambition blinded the Kingpriest, whose life
intertwines with Raistlin’s own. He does have redeeming
qualities, though they are deeply buried. Raistlin still
loves his brother, though he works hard to deny it. He has
compassion for the weak and the helpless, remembering
his own sickly childhood, when he was feeble and
dependent on others.
Let there be no doubt, however: Raistlin at this juncture
in his life is capable of acts of unspeakable cruelty. He
lets nothing and no one stand in his way, even if it means
eliminating them for good.
Isn't he magnificent?
:smallsmile:


Fireball? One fireball? Better than say... Fiendfyre? I think you have that backwards again. Indeed do any ADnD spells match Fiendfyre for power in that area?
Question...
Are you punking us?
Because you were arguing Fed victory/survival in the epic 40K v. SW v. ST Thread IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11982029#post11982029), and I'm wondering if you simply pick the clear under-dog for the sheer thrill of it?


Fireball? One fireball? Better than say... Fiendfyre? I think you have that backwards again. Indeed do any ADnD spells match Fiendfyre for power in that area?
Well, one fireball wouldn't be "more firepower than voldemorts entire inner circle." so, I'd say no.
And what does Fiendfyre do but be fire that's animated and follows you? Even if it's got divine energy, it's a glorified and mobile flame strike.
Druids can do it.

And what happens if Vecna counterspells?

Traab
2012-01-11, 12:09 AM
Fireball? One fireball? Better than say... Fiendfyre? I think you have that backwards again. Indeed do any ADnD spells match Fiendfyre for power in that area?

Meh, fiendfyre isnt all that great. If it was a D&D spell it would have several downsides listed, like every round you roll to see if you can still control where it goes and who it tries to kill, otherwise it basically goes berserk and attacks everything. Also, its not like its unblockable, its just a really strong flamethrower that exists as long as the caster wills it to, or until it is disrupted by someone else. While voldemort could use it safely, we see crabbe or goyle, or one of the nimrods try and lose control of it, getting himself killed in the end by his own spell. So yeah, id say a level 5 wizard, maybe a bit higher, could handle the inner circle.

Touch of idiocy alone would likely cripple half the inbred idiots he has working for him. There are tons of spells from level 1-3 that could be used in a variety of ways to cripple, confuse, subdue, and yes, kill, the death eaters.

Deep slumber
Major image and invisibility sphere
Suggestion "The other death eaters are going to stab you in the back. Fight back!"

Ghoul Touch
Scare
Expeditious retreat (big mobility boost when dodging incoming attacks)

There are more, but these are just some of the spells a wizard could use to wreak havoc in a battle in harry potter land. Others would depend on the relative hit dice and assigned stats the death eaters would be considered as having. For instance, color spray. How effective would that be against a standard inner circle member? Meh, anyways, my point is that with a little prep time and a good plan, that level 5 wizard would be able to kick serious death eater butt.

Lamech
2012-01-11, 12:20 AM
Question...
Are you punking us?
Because you were arguing Fed victory/survival in the epic 40K v. SW v. ST Thread IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11982029#post11982029), and I'm wondering if you simply pick the clear under-dog for the sheer thrill of it?I'm pretty sure my opinion was that SW would use there much faster FTL to overrun and burn everything to the ground. (Well at least after time travel, genesis devices, self-replicating mines, and phase cloak got banned), but there ships being massively faster in tactical combat, and longer range weapons (especially against SW ships) would make fighting in space a rather easy win. (Indeed, they have no way to catch a ST ship.)



And what does Fiendfyre do but be fire that's animated and follows you? Even if it's got divine energy, it's a glorified and mobile flame strike.
Druids can do it.

And what happens if Vecna counterspells?
Its massively larger, and much longer lasting? I mean is meteor swarm a glorified burning hands? (I don't think there were the rocks in 2nd) Plus it probably does the standard cursed wound deal.

Tebryn
2012-01-11, 12:22 AM
What is the "Cursed Wound" deal?

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-11, 12:26 AM
I'm pretty sure my opinion was that SW would ... catch a ST ship.)

Its massively larger, and much longer lasting? I mean is meteor swarm a glorified burning hands? (I don't think there were the rocks in 2nd)


Plus it probably does the standard cursed wound deal.
Facepalm.
Why?
Why does Rowling cursed wound which only occured because Harry's mother died for him take precedence over D&D premise the spell would just not take effect?

And what have you to say about Traab's post above yours? He makes a compelling point of the strategies a 5th level wizard could use, and Vecna is significantly greater than 5th level.

Lamech
2012-01-11, 12:37 AM
Deep slumber
Major image and invisibility sphere
Suggestion "The other death eaters are going to stab you in the back. Fight back!"

Ghoul Touch
Scare
Expeditious retreat (big mobility boost when dodging incoming attacks)They have sleep spells in HP, and invisibility spells. And mind control spells. And illusions. And the touch spells are a joke how are you getting close enough to touch a teleporter? Or a flier?
Expeditious retreat doesn't help you dodge; get to cover quicker yes, but not dodging. Of course, your still several steps slower than a teleporter. Or a flier.
So everyone* of these spells can be done by a HP wizard or something better. And the HP versions are frequently blocked in combat. Oh and the HP doesn't run out of spells after casting a handful. And the Harry Potter versions are roughly quickened since they can cast several (and that is compared to a 3rd edition wizard). As you can see a fifth level wizard really rather subpar.

*I'm not aware of any fear spells actually, but mind control can double as a lot of things.


What is the "Cursed Wound" deal? HP magic has trouble healing wounds inflicted by dark magic. Although we have no real way to know if positive energy would fix it, or if remove curse or whatever would wipe it.

Xondoure
2012-01-11, 01:28 AM
Yeah D&D mind control has nothing on Imperius.

And if Voldemort has the deathly hallows he is master of death. The last time someone was master of death they got hit full on with Avada Kadavra and stood up again. So he is now: completely undetectable apart from sound,* able to conjure the dead and speak with them (admittedly useless in the short term, and has amplified magical ability beyond being the most feared dark lord of the modern era. Then I'd say it might be interesting. Unfortunately he is still an idiot.

*Wizards learn how to silence any sound when they are sixteen to seventeen.

Kyberwulf
2012-01-11, 01:50 AM
You know, I just REALIZED.. WHY i assumed this would be a good match-up.

Inheriently ... Fundamental Flaw. I was working under the Assumption it takes Intellagence for Wizards to cast Spells. I now realize that in the HP Universe any idiot can cast spells.

Forum Explorer
2012-01-11, 05:33 AM
Yeah D&D mind control has nothing on Imperius.

And if Voldemort has the deathly hallows he is master of death. The last time someone was master of death they got hit full on with Avada Kadavra and stood up again. So he is now: completely undetectable apart from sound,* able to conjure the dead and speak with them (admittedly useless in the short term, and has amplified magical ability beyond being the most feared dark lord of the modern era. Then I'd say it might be interesting. Unfortunately he is still an idiot.

*Wizards learn how to silence any sound when they are sixteen to seventeen.

It doesn't seem that different from Dominate Monster really. And isn't as powerful as Mindrape.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-11, 05:53 AM
Can you imagine determining damage if it went like that?

"Ok, your fireball connected with the goblin, now to roll for burn damage. Ok, the goblin received 2nd degree burns to its extremities, and 3rd degree to its torso. Rolling for physical handicap. Ok, goblin is unable to use his right arm or leg. His left leg is still useable but without both he cant move very far. His left arm is hurt but he can still swing his weapon at a -4 attack penalty. Rolling for pain damage. Goblin is unable to focus enough to attack due to pain this round."

A single battle would take hours just to cover everything. brrr!

You mean like Rolemaster does...? (It'd be more like "+15 hits, foe must parry next round, is at -20 and bleeding 2 hits/rnd" or something, though...)

(RM is quite reasonably fast is you have an experienced DM who knows where all the tables are and everyone is up on their mental maths. I mean, from the PCs end, it's no different to 3.x or 4E, it's just the dice and the number you're adding are proportionally five times larger...)

The Glyphstone
2012-01-11, 06:48 AM
You know, I just REALIZED.. WHY i assumed this would be a good match-up.

Inheriently ... Fundamental Flaw. I was working under the Assumption it takes Intellagence for Wizards to cast Spells. I now realize that in the HP Universe any idiot can cast spells.

They do function, semi-mechanically, much more like Sorcerers than Wizards. Voldemort is a moron, but it's beaten into us over and over how charismatic he is and has always been, even as a child.

It also helps explain Squibs - they're "sorcerers" with Charisma as a dump stat. (Filch is a kid-hating grump, the crazy cat lady is crazy, it's implied Albus's sister was damaged somehow).

Selrahc
2012-01-11, 07:27 AM
They do function, semi-mechanically, much more like Sorcerers than Wizards. Voldemort is a moron, but it's beaten into us over and over how charismatic he is and has always been, even as a child.

It also helps explain Squibs - they're "sorcerers" with Charisma as a dump stat. (Filch is a kid-hating grump, the crazy cat lady is crazy, it's implied Albus's sister was damaged somehow).

Harry Potter does not match DnD mechanics. Forcing it into them isn't really going to help matters. JK Rowling obviously wasn't using that system when she made her world, and it's easy enough to find powerful wizards who aren't terribly charismatic, or charismatic wizards who aren't terribly powerful. Magical power is determined by what seems to be more akin to willpower. Which isn't tied into Wisdom, since that's a DnD idea that has precious little coinage outside the game.

DnD=/=Harry Potter. HP Wizards are not Wizards or Sorcerers. They aren't on the vancian system and they don't have spell levels.

Frankly talking about DnD rules at all should only be done for good reason. If at all possible rely on prose accounts of what Vecna has done, or the descriptions of effects he can perform rather than potential mechanics he can exploit. RPG rules are by necessity an abstraction of a narrative or simulationist formula for the sake of creating a game. But we aren't playing a game here, so we should rely more on the stuff that didn't have to follow that restriction. Converting characters *into* a more abstracted form from a more descriptive one seems like the opposite of what should be done.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-11, 09:28 AM
It doesn't seem that different from Dominate Monster really. And isn't as powerful as Mindrape.

The problem is that, at least for the Unforgiveables, the target's willpower isn't generally taken into account, only the caster's. Harry Potter doesn't have "saving throws", although almost everything requires a ranged touch attack and some kind of 'check' or other by the spellcaster that's usually trivial for fully trained wizards, but more complex for spells with an emotional component like a Patronus or Cruciatus.

However, blanket Immunity to mind control (whether from the undead type or a mid-level spell) and relatively trivial means by which to detect enchantments on his followers mean Imperio isn't going to do much to Vecna anyway, and one of the weaker-willed Death Eaters is pretty likely to fail a saving throw against Dominate Monster if Vecna decides to go that route for information-gathering or even assassination.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-11, 09:49 AM
The problem is that, at least for the Unforgiveables, the target's willpower isn't generally taken into account, only the caster's. Harry Potter doesn't have "saving throws", although almost everything requires a ranged touch attack and some kind of 'check' or other by the spellcaster that's usually trivial for fully trained wizards, but more complex for spells with an emotional component like a Patronus or Cruciatus.

That's not quite true, actually. You can attempt to fight off Imperio - and shown in Goblet of Fire with Not-Moody, as well as things like all the Legemains training Harry was supposed to have been having indicates that the target are capable of resisting these types of things (even if they aren't easy). Otherwise, Imperio would be a campaign-ender, as all you'd have to do is snare Dumbledore or something and game over...

To me, particularly in concert with "caster effort/willpower" has "would be modelled in game terms as spell save DC verses Will save" written all over it. (Or something like Rolemaster's base attack spells, in which the caster's spellcasting check result gives the target a modifier on their Resistance Roll.)

Gullintanni
2012-01-11, 09:50 AM
Regardless, I'm pretty sure Mind Blank is going to be one of Vecna's priority spell slots. Imperio's not going to present any real danger to him. You don't get to be the master of secrets by failing to lock down your own mind like a fortress.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-11, 10:03 AM
Regardless, I'm pretty sure Mind Blank is going to be one of Vecna's priority spell slots. Imperio's not going to present any real danger to him. You don't get to be the master of secrets by failing to lock down your own mind like a fortress.

Oh, I don't suppose for a moment Vecna would have been affected by Imperio, I was just pointing out that there is some evidence of a "saving throw" type effect in evidence in HP for some spells.



(In fact, you might argue that AK could be modelled as a Reflex Negates, instead of a ranged touch, as I vaguley recall Disintegrate might have been described as being in AD&D (i.e. in that if you passed the save verses spell, the description said the beam was likely to have missed, rather than been "resisted."

Hang on... *checks*

Yes, it said "creature who make the save are assumed to have avoided the beam.")

So you could choose to model it that way (perhaps in addition to a ranged touch, which would sort of I think be a reasonable move from a mechanics standpoint.

All this, however, taking into account what Selrahc rightly said about game mechanics and a discussion of characters above!)

Traab
2012-01-11, 12:43 PM
They have sleep spells in HP, and invisibility spells. And mind control spells. And illusions. And the touch spells are a joke how are you getting close enough to touch a teleporter? Or a flier?
Expeditious retreat doesn't help you dodge; get to cover quicker yes, but not dodging. Of course, your still several steps slower than a teleporter. Or a flier.
So everyone* of these spells can be done by a HP wizard or something better. And the HP versions are frequently blocked in combat. Oh and the HP doesn't run out of spells after casting a handful. And the Harry Potter versions are roughly quickened since they can cast several (and that is compared to a 3rd edition wizard). As you can see a fifth level wizard really rather subpar.

*I'm not aware of any fear spells actually, but mind control can double as a lot of things.
HP magic has trouble healing wounds inflicted by dark magic. Although we have no real way to know if positive energy would fix it, or if remove curse or whatever would wipe it.

Im aware that in D&D rules retreat doesnt help you dodge, but in the harry potter world, being able to move fast means you get hit less. As for touch spells, there are a number of ways you can get close enough to ambush with touch spells, there are several spells that can make you invisible, and do it better than disillusionment. There are spells that produce distractions to direct attention away from yourself, and can be used to lure them into position. Clever tactics and a wide assortment of spells used in the proper way can overcome a lot. Just to setup an example.

Step 1 Invisibility sphere and stand next to a doorway.
Step 2 Unseen servant set to make the door open a little then slam shut when the death eaters come by.
Step 3 Ghoul touch the first guy, then touch of idiocy the one right behind him. Guy number 1 is paralyzed, guy number 2 is practically drooling on himself.
Step 4 start fighting.

In 3 steps you manage to paralyze one target, hopefully for a long enough duration, and reduce the second targets effectiveness by a significant amount. And dont bother with coming back with a hundred ways the plan could fail, its only a single example of how it could work. Though a lot would depend on how the rules translate between universes.

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-11, 12:46 PM
Hm. Well, let's see. Established god vs. an ill-informed, arrogant terrorist who frankly did such a good job foiling himself all the hero had to do was stand there. I wonder who's going to win this one.



This one takes place before Vecna Acends to godhood.

So... Assume that both find the road to Godhood. and both want the same power.

Were you reading this?

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-11, 12:54 PM
Were you reading this?

Were you reading the entire rest of the thread?

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-11, 12:57 PM
Were you reading the entire rest of the thread?

Just felt it should be mentioned, but enh.

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-11, 12:59 PM
So, there's two different stories, though, in the OP. I'm going to go with "after both are gods" because it suits me, and say...

...I think with both being able to use Salient divine abilities (like, for example, alter reality), it really wouldn't matter what else they could do. They'd tie every time.

Beforehand, though...*thinks*

Vecna. Voldemort was driven to the brink by the end of Harry Potter, and it's an insanity Vecna could exploit.

averagejoe
2012-01-11, 03:25 PM
There's a definite focusing of willpower through a wand, though, in addition to the gestures and magic words. One wizard splitting his magic between multiple focuses would likely be...bad. If it were that easy to use multiple wands, even for the same spell, at least one Wizard somewhere in the novels would have at least brought it up. Rowling Wizards are dumb, but they aren't so dumb as to not even consider John Woo style, at least.

Also, I'm done arguing with Lamech, as he or she seems intent on cleaving exactly to the letter of the rules of AD&D while ignoring any such specific limitations on Potter magic (in those few cases where the narrative makes them explicit in the story).

Bah, trifling things like, "Being wrong," have never stopped me from believing in things!

(Seriously, though, I don't remember a significant willpower component being involved in most simple spells, though it has been awhile. Where was this?)

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-11, 03:52 PM
Bah, trifling things like, "Being wrong," have never stopped me from believing in things!

(Seriously, though, I don't remember a significant willpower component being involved in most simple spells, though it has been awhile. Where was this?)


By the logic in my head, since magic is reality manipulation it'd of course require focus and will, but you at least have to admit that you need to be focused enough to point the wand and say the words in HP.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-11, 04:04 PM
Bah, trifling things like, "Being wrong," have never stopped me from believing in things!

(Seriously, though, I don't remember a significant willpower component being involved in most simple spells, though it has been awhile. Where was this?)

It's definitely there for powerful spells, but it mostly just seems that you have to put intent into a spell for it to happen, as well as getting the motions and words right. There's certainly an internal factor to the witch or wizard that comes into play, as that's what makes you a magical person in the first place. It's not really well explained, though, except for high-level things with emotional components like the aforementioned Patronus or Unforgiveables.

On the other hand, it's also entirely reasonable to assume that there's a one to one correspondence between invocations and spells - you can wave as many wands as you want, but any one person can only say the incantation once at a time - maybe two with some kind of Name of the Wind doublethink (it's thinking the words that's important, after all, not saying them), but I'm not sure that's possible on the level needed.

Lamech
2012-01-11, 04:07 PM
And dont bother with coming back with a hundred ways the plan could fail, its only a single example of how it could work.
So your argument is... please don't counter me? Fine I'll ignore the flaws in the plan then. Luckily that isn't the reason the level 5 is outclassed. The level5 is outclassed because an HP wizard does it better.


In step one the HP wizard can use an invisibility, and one that doesn't break after casting offensivly.
Step two is easy.
In step three they could use a spell that kills multiple people. Or a spell that kills one regardless of magical defenses. And they can cast a lot faster.
In step four the HP wizard still has better offensive spells, AND better defensive spells AND is much more mobile.
Assuming the HP wizard wins the fight they don't need to retreat out of the battlefield with all their best spells used up.

A HP wizard outclasses a mere level 5 wizard by quite a few steps.


P.S. Invisibility breaks if any of your spells include foes in their area of effects. Things that specifically do not affect foes are exempt, but invisibility sphere has no such exception so, invisibility must be used.

Traab
2012-01-11, 04:41 PM
So your argument is... please don't counter me? Fine I'll ignore the flaws in the plan then. Luckily that isn't the reason the level 5 is outclassed. The level5 is outclassed because an HP wizard does it better.


In step one the HP wizard can use an invisibility, and one that doesn't break after casting offensivly.
Step two is easy.
In step three they could use a spell that kills multiple people. Or a spell that kills one regardless of magical defenses. And they can cast a lot faster.
In step four the HP wizard still has better offensive spells, AND better defensive spells AND is much more mobile.
Assuming the HP wizard wins the fight they don't need to retreat out of the battlefield with all their best spells used up.

A HP wizard outclasses a mere level 5 wizard by quite a few steps.


P.S. Invisibility breaks if any of your spells include foes in their area of effects. Things that specifically do not affect foes are exempt, but invisibility sphere has no such exception so, invisibility must be used.

What I meant was, dont bother pointing out all the different ways the plan could be countered because that would do nothing but start a 50 page argument of "then they could just..." back and forth between us. I dont mean the plan is unbeatable, obviously it isnt, but be honest, that plan would have beaten the crap out of the death eaters in the department of mysteries. They were flailing around almost as bad as the children. Only difference was they were using deadlier spells. Had both sides used lethal magic, I bet the order would have shown up and seen maybe malfoy and lestrange still alive and kicking ass, while the other death eaters were left in a pool of blood.

Yes, invisibility drops upon using an offensive spell, but at that point one guy is paralyzed, and you are right next to the next guy, so he is easy to hit with the follow up spell. And hp invisibility isnt perfect. You move and its like predator stealth mode. Ripples all over the place, and it doesnt protect against noise you produce. Potters cloak is an exception to the ripple effect, but even then you cant make a noise or they will know you are there. Until I hit the first person with a spell, they dont know im there.

As far as the offensive spells go, its hard to judge really, just how effective spells like fireball, shocking grasp, or other offensive spells would be as its two different worlds. Its easy to judge with hp spells because we see that it makes you explode, or cuts off a limb. In D&D we get numbers for how much damage it does. And no on mobility, the retreat spell grants the D&D wizard the edge in movement speed, which in a rl setting like hp means he can dodge a hell of alot easier. There is a reason you dont see the hp wizards apparate dodging spells and blinking all over the place, and its not because of wards, (always) its because it takes concentration and all that rot to not leave behind body parts, and its rather hard to concentrate when a 20 foot fireball is heading for your face.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-11, 06:21 PM
What I meant was, dont bother pointing out all the different ways the plan could be countered because that would do nothing but start a 50 page argument of "then they could just..." back and forth between us.
Aaaaaaaaaamen!

Ancient Mage
2012-01-11, 06:30 PM
How could Vecna Lose? He's a mighty mage, and uses the D&D rules. He knows every spell, including the all important ray deflection spell (Spell Compendium). Now he's immune to half of Voldemort's spells. In addition, he's a lich, so he's immune to many Harry Potter book tricks, he can easily cast mind blank, can use wishes to fortify himself against Voldemort's limited spell list, and can use divination to find Voldemort's horcruxes.
However, in a completely straight fight between Vecna and Voldemort, the true winner would be...
CHUCK NORRIS

-Ancient Mage

Lamech
2012-01-11, 07:37 PM
How could Vecna Lose? He's a mighty mage, and uses the D&D rules. He knows every spell, including the all important ray deflection spell (Spell Compendium). Now he's immune to half of Voldemort's spells. In addition, he's a lich, so he's immune to many Harry Potter book tricks, he can easily cast mind blank, can use wishes to fortify himself against Voldemort's limited spell list, and can use divination to find Voldemort's horcruxes.
However, in a completely straight fight between Vecna and Voldemort, the true winner would be...
CHUCK NORRIS

-Ancient Mage
Problem one: this is a 2nd ADnD mage. So 3.5 sources are out. Vecna had ascending to godhood far before 3.5. If you really want we could update him to the current system but... 4th edition Vecna would be a bit subpar.
Problem two: AK is immune to magical countermeasures. Counting on ray deflection would be a good way to get blasted to bits.
Problem three: Wishes are a good way to die, especially without a safe list. (Hint: there is no safe list in 2nd edition)
Problem four: IIRC Voldemort's Horcruxes were made immune to locating them magically.



I dont mean the plan is unbeatable, obviously it isnt, but be honest, that plan would have beaten the crap out of the death eaters in the department of mysteries.It might get one death eater with ghoul touch, or it might bounce off a shield, or death eaters might throw a explody when they hear our wizard casting. However the assumption that the wizard has enough time to cast a second spell is silly. HP magic is vastly faster than DnD magic.



And hp invisibility isnt perfect. You move and its like predator stealth mode. Ripples all over the place, and it doesnt protect against noise you produce. Potters cloak is an exception to the ripple effect, but even then you cant make a noise or they will know you are there. Until I hit the first person with a spell, they dont know im there.
Source? The cloak Harry had was remarkable because it lasted, not because it was actually undetectable by sight. Furthermore Dumbeldore says he doesn't need the invisibility cloak because of being able to cast a spell to make him invisible. This (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Bedazzling_hex) would also seem to work just fine. This (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Disillusionment) also seems to be a valid choice if you are good. Yes not all wizards will be able to cast these at top tier levels, but not all level 5 wizards even have invisibility.

And on HP invisibility not being silent... Umm... neither does DnD invisibility. Worse, and HP wizard CAN silence themselves. Oh, and they don't need to speak in a nice strong voice to cast their spells. A DnD wizard on the other hand does. He absolutely will make significant noise. A HP wizard at least doesn't have that problem.


And no on mobility, the retreat spell grants the D&D wizard the edge in movement speed, which in a rl setting like hp means he can dodge a hell of alot easier. They can fly. If they have a few seconds to concentrate they can teleport. And no in an rl setting suddenly moving faster does not make it easier to dodge. It DOES however mean that you suddenly are uncoordinated when you move twice as far as you should. (Or your legs are going twice as fast or whatever.) Presumably the spell counteracts for that, but not enough to make dodging easier.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-11, 07:47 PM
Problem two: AK is immune to magical countermeasures. Counting on ray deflection would be a good way to get blasted to bits.

And Vecna, being the research whore he is, would know this and be ready with Wall of Stone as a counterspell instead, to say nothing of the numerous ways of preventing Voldemort from properly targeting him.

Do you see why arguing specific rules nitpicks is annoying?

Fan
2012-01-11, 07:50 PM
Problem one: this is a 2nd ADnD mage. So 3.5 sources are out. Vecna had ascending to godhood far before 3.5. If you really want we could update him to the current system but... 4th edition Vecna would be a bit subpar.
Problem two: AK is immune to magical countermeasures. Counting on ray deflection would be a good way to get blasted to bits.
Problem three: Wishes are a good way to die, especially without a safe list. (Hint: there is no safe list in 2nd edition)
Problem four: IIRC Voldemort's Horcruxes were made immune to locating them magically.

It might get one death eater with ghoul touch, or it might bounce off a shield, or death eaters might throw a explody when they hear our wizard casting. However the assumption that the wizard has enough time to cast a second spell is silly. HP magic is vastly faster than DnD magic.


Source? The cloak Harry had was remarkable because it lasted, not because it was actually undetectable by sight. Furthermore Dumbeldore says he doesn't need the invisibility cloak because of being able to cast a spell to make him invisible. This (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Bedazzling_hex) would also seem to work just fine. This (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Disillusionment) also seems to be a valid choice if you are good. Yes not all wizards will be able to cast these at top tier levels, but not all level 5 wizards even have invisibility.

And on HP invisibility not being silent... Umm... neither does DnD invisibility. Worse, and HP wizard CAN silence themselves. Oh, and they don't need to speak in a nice strong voice to cast their spells. A DnD wizard on the other hand does. He absolutely will make significant noise. A HP wizard at least doesn't have that problem.
They can fly. If they have a few seconds to concentrate they can teleport. And no in an rl setting suddenly moving faster does not make it easier to dodge. It DOES however mean that you suddenly are uncoordinated when you move twice as far as you should. (Or your legs are going twice as fast or whatever.) Presumably the spell counteracts for that, but not enough to make dodging easier.

What?

Shield spells stop AK ALL THE TIME in the books, and movies. It is by no means some unstoppable force, it is magical energy specifically designed to end lives, not be some unstoppable god spell. It can be turned aside the same as any other curse and is stopped EN MASSE (ie in the thousands) by the shields. It also doesn't auto kill the Statues in Deathly Hallows.

Dumbledore specifically deflects the AK spell at least three time in his duels with Voldemort in the Ministry. There is NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER that a ray reflecting spell would not work against AK.

Hell from the lore I gleaned from the various bestiarys AK can't even kill certain monsters in the HP universe because they are magically resistant, and given that Vecna has magic resistance directly it applies.


Also fairly sure that it can't kill Dementors which are the closest equivalent to actual Undead the HP universe has.

So.. AK doesn't work on undead, or animated objects that have no true life. Exactly like a death effect.

Lamech
2012-01-11, 07:55 PM
And Vecna, being the research whore he is, would know this and be ready with Wall of Stone as a counterspell instead, to say nothing of the numerous ways of preventing Voldemort from properly targeting him.

Do you see why arguing specific rules nitpicks is annoying?
So when someone suggests a defense that won't do anything I should? Anyway what Vecna really needs is something like a contingency to get him the hell away, if say... any enemy weapons or spells pierce his defenses. So then if say... someone were about to cut his hand off with a sword he would teleport away. Of course... Kas. So again, as I have held this thread, the winner is the guy who is the smaller screw up, and I think that title will go to Vecna. Not because Vecna has more powerful magic, but because Voldemort suffers from bigger plot induced stupidity.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-11, 07:56 PM
Yeah I was going to argue about whether AK worked against shield spells but the Potter wiki didn't say and **** if I'm going to go dig OotP out of a box just to check.


So when someone suggests a defense that won't do anything I should? Anyway what Vecna really needs is something like a contingency to get him the hell away, if say... any enemy weapons or spells pierce his defenses. So then if say... someone were about to cut his hand off with a sword he would teleport away. Of course... Kas. So again, as I have held this thread, the winner is the guy who is the smaller screw up, and I think that title will go to Vecna. Not because Vecna has more powerful magic, but because Voldemort suffers from bigger plot induced stupidity.

So basically all you're arguing is that "Harry Potter magic is totally just as awesome as D&D magic".

...why?

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-11, 07:57 PM
Vecna has more powerful magic,
There. Now we're done.

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-11, 08:07 PM
And on HP invisibility not being silent... Umm... neither does DnD invisibility. Worse, and HP wizard CAN silence themselves. Oh, and they don't need to speak in a nice strong voice to cast their spells. A DnD wizard on the other hand does. He absolutely will make significant noise. A HP wizard at least doesn't have that problem.

With metamagic and a silence spell, a DnD wizard can be completely silent. If they're able to get close even moreso.



They can fly. If they have a few seconds to concentrate they can teleport.

So can DnD wizards (at least high-level ones).

Also, has no one yet taken into account the fact that Voldemort, by the end, lost 5+/7ths of his soul and as a result was feverishly insane?

This does in fact affect the outcome.

EDIT: Lamech got it. Never mind.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-11, 08:10 PM
Also, has no one yet taken into account the fact that Voldemort, by the end, lost 5+/7ths of his soul and as a result was feverishly insane?
Insane? He didn't seem any stupider than usual? How do you figure?
:smalltongue:

AgentofHellfire
2012-01-11, 08:16 PM
Insane? He didn't seem any stupider than usual? How do you figure?
:smalltongue:

:amused: Well, I suppose even losing 1/7th of one's soul before even being resurrected isn't good for you. :smallbiggrin:

But you could tell, in the movie, at least, just by how he talked.

Traab
2012-01-11, 09:23 PM
And on HP invisibility not being silent... Umm... neither does DnD invisibility.

That was my fault, im looking at a spell list, and I accidentally combined this whole thing into one description.


Invisibility Sphere: Makes everyone within 10 ft. invisible.
Major Image: As silent image, plus sound, smell and thermal effects.

For some odd reason my eyes went right past major image and mashed the everything within 10ft invisible plus sound smell and thermal effects together.

Xondoure
2012-01-11, 10:13 PM
What?

Shield spells stop AK ALL THE TIME in the books, and movies. It is by no means some unstoppable force, it is magical energy specifically designed to end lives, not be some unstoppable god spell. It can be turned aside the same as any other curse and is stopped EN MASSE (ie in the thousands) by the shields. It also doesn't auto kill the Statues in Deathly Hallows.

Dumbledore specifically deflects the AK spell at least three time in his duels with Voldemort in the Ministry. There is NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER that a ray reflecting spell would not work against AK.

Hell from the lore I gleaned from the various bestiarys AK can't even kill certain monsters in the HP universe because they are magically resistant, and given that Vecna has magic resistance directly it applies.


Also fairly sure that it can't kill Dementors which are the closest equivalent to actual Undead the HP universe has.

So.. AK doesn't work on undead, or animated objects that have no true life. Exactly like a death effect.

This is just plain wrong. AK is never blocked magically except by Dumbledore's statues.

Lamech
2012-01-11, 11:20 PM
So basically all you're arguing is that "Harry Potter magic is totally just as awesome as D&D magic".

...why?Because numerous people are arguing the opposite? Its not a curbstomp because Vecna has massively more power. It a likely Vecna win because Voldy has seemingly much more pronounced tendency towards stupidity. Vecna's failures seem to be things like bad contingency spells, and not divining future threats thoroughly enough. But it isn't on the level of "My magic fails against this one and only person. My minions defeat him just fine. Hmm... I'll tell my minions not to kill him."

averagejoe
2012-01-11, 11:59 PM
It's definitely there for powerful spells, but it mostly just seems that you have to put intent into a spell for it to happen, as well as getting the motions and words right. There's certainly an internal factor to the witch or wizard that comes into play, as that's what makes you a magical person in the first place. It's not really well explained, though, except for high-level things with emotional components like the aforementioned Patronus or Unforgiveables.

On the other hand, it's also entirely reasonable to assume that there's a one to one correspondence between invocations and spells - you can wave as many wands as you want, but any one person can only say the incantation once at a time - maybe two with some kind of Name of the Wind doublethink (it's thinking the words that's important, after all, not saying them), but I'm not sure that's possible on the level needed.

Hmmm, sounds like my idea would still be doable, depending on the precise triggers, but it's a bit of a wizard engineering problem. And wizard engineers don't exist in HP.

Agrippa
2012-01-12, 01:28 AM
This is just plain wrong. AK is never blocked magically except by Dumbledore's statues.

Even then it wasn't the magic that blocked Voldemort's AKs, it was the statues themselves.

Fan
2012-01-12, 07:52 AM
This is just plain wrong. AK is never blocked magically except by Dumbledore's statues.

Incorrect, it is also blocked by priori incantateum, the shield spells that create the bubble outside hogwarts, and by any other magically animated / not truly killable (such as a lich, or say as has had an example in the books and movies a Phoenix.) being. It is also told in various bestiarys that there are creatures in magical Africa which cannot be killed by fewer than 1000 wizards, and that the last one to be killed was in fact killed by an entire cabal of dark wizards seeking to use it's components for the construction of a dark wand (lore from the games, but eh. It's still canon.)

This is proof that a significant anti magical force (say an anti magic ray) could in fact nullify the killing curse. Or because Vecna would be smart enough to pick up a machine gun in this hypothetical battle (lord of secrets, well over twice as smart as Einstein, Issac Newton, or any other being in living memory. He can figure out that black powder weapons advanced, and are now superior in most ways to other things being able to kill a mortal man in the same amount of time as anything else.) an anti magic field centered on his opponent which he would then either shoot into or just throw Orb of Forces into.

Traab
2012-01-12, 08:41 AM
Incorrect, it is also blocked by priori incantateum, the shield spells that create the bubble outside hogwarts, and by any other magically animated / not truly killable (such as a lich, or say as has had an example in the books and movies a Phoenix.) being. It is also told in various bestiarys that there are creatures in magical Africa which cannot be killed by fewer than 1000 wizards, and that the last one to be killed was in fact killed by an entire cabal of dark wizards seeking to use it's components for the construction of a dark wand (lore from the games, but eh. It's still canon.)

This is proof that a significant anti magical force (say an anti magic ray) could in fact nullify the killing curse. Or because Vecna would be smart enough to pick up a machine gun in this hypothetical battle (lord of secrets, well over twice as smart as Einstein, Issac Newton, or any other being in living memory. He can figure out that black powder weapons advanced, and are now superior in most ways to other things being able to kill a mortal man in the same amount of time as anything else.) an anti magic field centered on his opponent which he would then either shoot into or just throw Orb of Forces into.

Oh, ok then, vecna just has to go and kick harry potters ass, steal his wand, then lock wands with voldemort in a standoff till we see the dozens of meaningless (to vecna) murders voldemort has committed. The priori incantatum isnt immune to aks, it just auto links brother wands no matter what they use on each other. It doesnt "block" the ak, it causes an extremely unusual side effect. I.... dont remember magic bubbles blocking killing curses, but that may be because I havent read the final battle in a long time. And movies dont count if they change things from the source material to be more interesting.

The ak DOES kill a phoenix, its just that they are reborn afterwards. No idea what happens if you hit him with a second ak afterwards though. The fact that jk made some animals virtually immune to them, like nundus is actually irrelevant for one good reason. Because we dont get to learn WHY they are immune beyond "naturally immune", and its apparently not something the hp universe can replicate on its wizards. Otherwise, despite the danger in acquiring it, you would likely see at least a couple of families with a nundu fur robe in their vaults they keep for upcoming battles so they can ignore magic. Other resistant creatures, like dragons or basalisks, apparently lose that protection when they die, so dragonhide armor may be more protective than nothing, but you cant take an ak to the chest just because you have on a hungarian horntail vest.

All that aside, avada kedavra is an incredibly overhyped spell. Its only real value is that you cant block it with a standard magical shield. Its like the spell has a curse on it that keeps the average witch or wizard from recognizing the several ways it can be rendered useless. Summoning something to intercept the shot, conjuring an obstacle for it to hit, moving two feet to the left, moving two feet to the right, ducking, apparently there are wards that can block it, even if only for so long, and lets not forget the more esoteric methods dumbledoore uses that are really just fancier ways of using other objects to block the spell and take the hit for you. Its not that impressive of a spell, all that makes it special is it only has one use, to kill. Other non unforgivables can be used for different methods. Reductos can be used to blow a persons arm off, or to break down a door, cutting charms can be used to sever a limb, or cut some thread, etc etc etc.

Fan
2012-01-12, 09:09 AM
Oh, ok then, vecna just has to go and kick harry potters ass, steal his wand, then lock wands with voldemort in a standoff till we see the dozens of meaningless (to vecna) murders voldemort has committed. The priori incantatum isnt immune to aks, it just auto links brother wands no matter what they use on each other. It doesnt "block" the ak, it causes an extremely unusual side effect. I.... dont remember magic bubbles blocking killing curses, but that may be because I havent read the final battle in a long time. And movies dont count if they change things from the source material to be more interesting.

The ak DOES kill a phoenix, its just that they are reborn afterwards. No idea what happens if you hit him with a second ak afterwards though. The fact that jk made some animals virtually immune to them, like nundus is actually irrelevant for one good reason. Because we dont get to learn WHY they are immune beyond "naturally immune", and its apparently not something the hp universe can replicate on its wizards. Otherwise, despite the danger in acquiring it, you would likely see at least a couple of families with a nundu fur robe in their vaults they keep for upcoming battles so they can ignore magic. Other resistant creatures, like dragons or basalisks, apparently lose that protection when they die, so dragonhide armor may be more protective than nothing, but you cant take an ak to the chest just because you have on a hungarian horntail vest.

All that aside, avada kedavra is an incredibly overhyped spell. Its only real value is that you cant block it with a standard magical shield. Its like the spell has a curse on it that keeps the average witch or wizard from recognizing the several ways it can be rendered useless. Summoning something to intercept the shot, conjuring an obstacle for it to hit, moving two feet to the left, moving two feet to the right, ducking, apparently there are wards that can block it, even if only for so long, and lets not forget the more esoteric methods dumbledoore uses that are really just fancier ways of using other objects to block the spell and take the hit for you. Its not that impressive of a spell, all that makes it special is it only has one use, to kill. Other non unforgivables can be used for different methods. Reductos can be used to blow a persons arm off, or to break down a door, cutting charms can be used to sever a limb, or cut some thread, etc etc etc.

The point was in that, that because Vecna is a lich, it would not be true death. It'd merely be a couple days set back.

I was more suggesting the Anti Magic Field spell centered on Voldemort's snake or some ****. Since AK is still magic, and Anti Magic spell stops supernatural abilities and any other variety of magic as well (not just vanacian casting.) I don't see why Venca couldn't just do that and toss orbs of force into it, or orbs or acid, or whatever, and fly to keep his distance.

Alternatively, Anti Magic + Walking up and Punching Voldemort. Vecna could just beat him to death. He is a lich.

Aotrs Commander
2012-01-12, 09:29 AM
Because numerous people are arguing the opposite? Its not a curbstomp because Vecna has massively more power. It a likely Vecna win because Voldy has seemingly much more pronounced tendency towards stupidity. Vecna's failures seem to be things like bad contingency spells, and not divining future threats thoroughly enough. But it isn't on the level of "My magic fails against this one and only person. My minions defeat him just fine. Hmm... I'll tell my minions not to kill him."

"Awesome" and how much you like a thing is not an objective measure of comparable power. I think Horatio Caine is freaking Awesome, as is Captain Kirk, but I don't think either of them would realistically stand a non-humourous chance against Superman.

HP magic is capable of different things to D&D magic, the latter of which is capable of far more world-devastating effects at the top level (where Vecna is). (E.g. Planar transit and summoning, with divine magic comprehensive healing, raising the dead with little trauma etc etc). Further, by their natures, HP magic is primarily applied to civilian applications, where as D&D magic is very much more developed to a more military (if not flat-out combat) level (i.e. for the use of by bands of wandering murderous hobos and the xenocidal manics they carve up.)


Incorrect, it is also blocked by priori incantateum, the shield spells that create the bubble outside hogwarts, and by any other magically animated / not truly killable (such as a lich, or say as has had an example in the books and movies a Phoenix.) being. It is also told in various bestiarys that there are creatures in magical Africa which cannot be killed by fewer than 1000 wizards, and that the last one to be killed was in fact killed by an entire cabal of dark wizards seeking to use it's components for the construction of a dark wand (lore from the games, but eh. It's still canon.)

This is proof that a significant anti magical force (say an anti magic ray) could in fact nullify the killing curse. Or because Vecna would be smart enough to pick up a machine gun in this hypothetical battle (lord of secrets, well over twice as smart as Einstein, Issac Newton, or any other being in living memory. He can figure out that black powder weapons advanced, and are now superior in most ways to other things being able to kill a mortal man in the same amount of time as anything else.) an anti magic field centered on his opponent which he would then either shoot into or just throw Orb of Forces into.

Well, if he has access to 3.x spells, there's always cutting out the middleLich and just using Antimagic Ray...



Worth noting, by the way.

I just checked the earliest stats for Vecna I could find in AD&D (in Vecna Lives!) at that point, he was already a demigod (which is still before his ascention to full godhod, so is a fair point). Which should give us a better idea of what his capabilities are for comparison.

At this stage, he cast cast "any wizard or priest spell at will", reforms automatically in D100 days (no other clause, ie. no phylactery, rendering him literally immortal), automaticall has initiaive over mortals, has magic resistance (which is 70% unilateral NO to any magical effects, not like 3.x's SR which some spells arn't affected by, it means if you shot Vecna with an Orb of Force and it has a 70% chance of bouncing...) and can perform two action simultaneously, can teleport without error to any point on the smae plane at will, and, most damningly of all "knows what is happening within one mile of himself or any worshipper" (damn!)

Now, the multi-action and initative are fairly game-y, but we can extrapolate from that his reaction speed is in the superhuman range and he can cast either very fast or simultaneously. MR is also a bit of the same, but again, we can extrapolate that he is extremely naturally resistant to magic (which AD&D Liches aren't as a matter of course).

He can also pretty much, then, spam any spell he likes, arcane or divine (which, even confining him to only AD&D spells is murderously powerful!)

(His manifestation casts as a level 20 wizard with access to all spells of all schools. It's not quite clear whether this means "all wizard" spells or "all spells." But this is the form he uses to wander round incognito, as opposed to going all out. And in the latter case, I'd be inclinded to say Voldemort might have a slim chance, in the same way adventurers might, as Vecna isn't fighting to his top ability and "only" as a 20th level wizard and all that entails.)

There appears to be a fair bit of evidence that Vecna could cast both arcane and divine spells as all three places I can find stats for him (the above-mentioned, his Deities and Demigods stats (where he is a W20/Clr20), and those in Die Vecna Die! (for his avatar at the end) give him that ability, so it's possible he had the ability before even demigod status. This would make sense from the perspective that he was reputedly the best wizard ever, and only didn't conquer the entire world when his top lieutenant he'd kitted out with a highyl dubious sword of his own making, metaphorically shanked him in the back. (And that death literally doesn't kill him.)

(Incidently, the DVD! avatar was quoted as a C30, F30, W36, T20...! If anything, his abilities were significantly better in AD&D, which means he either got a serious power-down in the edition change (and there is an argument that Voldy would nearly be better off facing him as a lesser god!), or it more likely underlines how dreadfully underpowered and under optimised the stats for the gods in 3.0's Deities and Demigods really are...)

The real doozy is that "knows what is happening within one mile of himself or any worshipper"; is nearly omniscient (though knowing what is happening doesn't always mean you can stop it, plus it's fairly vaguely worded, so it's not clear to what level of detail). HP spells also have never been demonstrated to be very long range, so attacking him from further than a mile seem quite unlikely without the use of non-magical technology. (And out of the two of them, according to the write-ups in Vecna Lives! Vecna is most likely to bugger off and nudge someone else into using that on Voldy, while he sits down somewhere quietly and has a metaphorical cup of tea...)



So, likelihood is, EVEN IF Voldemort lands an AK, AND it isn't dissipated by Vecna's innate connection to magic and the resistance that confers AND it works on Undead or at least acts like a Distintegrate, all it'll do is buy Voldy D100 days before a wiser and more careful Vecna comes back and does his face in summat rotten.

Heck, even if he gets godhood first somehow, Vecna will probably get even eventually! As then it would come down to their personalities and intellects and even Lamech admits Voldy's sunk on that score! (And that's unlikely, since Vecna is, as mentioned, exceptional in the finding-crap-out stakes, whereas Voldy didn't even know the legend of the Eldar Wand properly; something it eventually transpired out even Ron Weasely had heard before, in his childhood fairy tales. Seriously, when you're being out-knowledged by Ron Weasely, of all people, it's time to stop and re-evaluate your life...! (No offense to Ron, he's cool, and doesn't deserve the flak he gets.)

Avilan the Grey
2012-01-12, 09:43 AM
(Stuff)

...In other words, he is about 10-20 times more powerful than Voldemoron. :smallbiggrin:

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-12, 09:54 AM
Because numerous people are arguing the opposite?

So, because People Are Wrong On The Internet, even though we come to the same (obvious) conclusion.

Yeah I'm done with this thread.

TheOasysMaster
2012-01-12, 10:00 AM
...In other words, he is about 10-20 times more powerful than Voldemoron.
BAM!

EDIT: But cue Horcrux garbage anyways.