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View Full Version : What's Redcloak's 2nd Level-9-Spell



Ancalagon
2012-01-10, 11:47 AM
Assuming Redcloak is just level 17 to be able to cast 9th level spells and assuming he does not has enough Wisdom to get bonus spells there, and assuming "Implosion" is his Domain Spell slot, what of the core spells would fill his one normal level 9 spell*?
The question is: If you have "the most powerful tool available" (Level 9 spells), which would fit Redcloak's character the most?

I think someone as Redcloak would go for Etherealness, as it allows him to run to safety if all is lost. He does not strike me as someone who'd use Engery Drain or Soul Bind, those are more Xykon's stick (this does not mean Redcloak would not/never use them if they offer the way to go about things).
My second choice would be a second Implosion, being able to insta-kill 8 creatures in 8 rounds seems to be a very powerful option.

* If Miracle exists in the OotS-verse has still to proven.

Cranica
2012-01-10, 12:05 PM
We know Wish exists in OOTS-land, so why wouldn't Miracle? I'd expect that to be Redcloak's choice, given his relationship with the Dark One.

Kish
2012-01-10, 12:06 PM
Since when is Miracle an optional spell?

I mean, obviously the DM can change anything. But why would "If Miracle exists" be something to question in the absence of evidence, any more than, say, "If Magic Missile exists"?

Cranica
2012-01-10, 12:07 PM
We know Wish exists in OOTS-land, so why wouldn't Miracle? I'd expect that to be Redcloak's choice, given his relationship with the Dark One.

Morthis
2012-01-10, 12:20 PM
We know Wish exists in OOTS-land, so why wouldn't Miracle? I'd expect that to be Redcloak's choice, given his relationship with the Dark One.

Where have we seen wish? I can't recall seeing it but maybe I missed it.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-10, 12:21 PM
Where have we seen wish? I can't recall seeing it but maybe I missed it.
The IFCC mentions it when they're telling V about the limits of the Soul Splice.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-10, 12:22 PM
Where have we seen wish? I can't recall seeing it but maybe I missed it.Wish and Limited Wish were mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html).

The Pilgrim
2012-01-10, 12:38 PM
I guess his second 9th-Level spell is Summon Monster IX, given the fact that he summoned Barded Devils.

AngryDaikon
2012-01-10, 12:41 PM
Looks to me like he cast two implosions. Once on the elven leader and the second on the red haired archer elf.

Slamexo
2012-01-10, 12:44 PM
Looks to me like he cast two implosions. Once on the elven leader and the second on the red haired archer elf.

One cast of implosion can splurtch another target for up to four rounds, so it was probably only one slots worth there.

Valyrian
2012-01-10, 12:51 PM
From what I know about the spell (no D&D regular), Miracle allows for too many plot-altering powers that I could imagine the Giant would let Redcloak have it. Maybe that means it doesn't exist at all, or he'll find another reason for Redcloak not to have it, similar to V's teleport.

Morthis
2012-01-10, 12:52 PM
Wish and Limited Wish were mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html).


The IFCC mentions it when they're telling V about the limits of the Soul Splice.

Thanks, forgot about that. Their wording definitely suggests V did have access to wish, just with additional limitations.

Delusion
2012-01-10, 12:55 PM
Gate perhaps? What with all the devils he has summoned.

Morthis
2012-01-10, 12:57 PM
From what I know about the spell (no D&D regular), Miracle allows for too many plot-altering powers that I could imagine the Giant would let Redcloak have it. Maybe that means it doesn't exist at all, or he'll find another reason for Redcloak not to have it, similar to V's teleport.

Well, an ordinary miracle isn't anything too special and wouldn't be too bad. Meanwhile a powerful miracle (the ones that cost exp) wouldn't allow him to just insta finish the plot or anything of that nature. It has to be something TDO can grant him, and since TDO specifically needs Redcloak to do his bidding because he can't do it himself, it's pretty easy to restrict Redcloak's options with miracles.

Psyren
2012-01-10, 12:59 PM
I honestly don't think it matters - being a cleric, he knows his entire list, so we'd only be discussing what he prepared that particular day as opposed to what he knows. And he could crush a rag-tag band like that even without 9ths.

Though I do have a question - given his newfound powers, can't he raise Right-Eye now?

Icedaemon
2012-01-10, 12:59 PM
From what I know about the spell (no D&D regular), Miracle allows for too many plot-altering powers that I could imagine the Giant would let Redcloak have it. Maybe that means it doesn't exist at all, or he'll find another reason for Redcloak not to have it, similar to V's teleport.

That seems to be too much of a 'the plot demands this' situation for the Giant to go for. There is no reason for him not to go with Miracle.

Psyren's point is a valid one though. In such a situation, casting Miracle every day will annoy any god, even if it is done by the chosen high priest. There can be a new Redcloak if the god so chooses - Jirix is a high level cleric, after all.

Psyren
2012-01-10, 01:05 PM
Remember that Miracle isn't a spell so much as it is a request. Just because Redcloak asks for something (outside of the listed uses) doesn't mean he'll get it. Wish has a similar clause as well ("partial fulfillment.") So I doubt we'll have either of them "solving the plot" even if they aren't banned.

Miracle is especially egregious since the gods have a gag-order concerning the Snarl. With everything Redcloak does being related to the Snarl in some way, any direct assistance he could get from the Dark One is limited.

TheRiov
2012-01-10, 01:06 PM
Looks to me like he cast two implosions. Once on the elven leader and the second on the red haired archer elf.

Implosion lasts 4 rounds allowing the caster to kill one target per round.

Ancalagon
2012-01-10, 01:06 PM
Don't hang yourself on the miracle-thing, I did not exclude it. If you want, say miracle. Given the strong (and to it limited) reactions I assume those of you how complained without mentioning another spell have picked "Miracle" as his second option?

I'd just be careful as it might come over too much as Deus Ex Machina in this environment that is focussed more on a plot than a strict setting that sticks to the rules.

But if you want to say Miracle, really feel free to say Miracle.

Kish
2012-01-10, 01:09 PM
We don't have enough information for me to want to speculate about Redcloak's second prepared ninth-level spell. :smalltongue: It could be any ninth-level cleric spell without the "Good" or "Chaotic" descriptor. I'm not choosing Miracle; I'm wondering why your footnote is there. If you'd rather not discuss it, just don't reply to this and I probably won't post in this thread again.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-10, 01:12 PM
Though I do have a question - given his newfound powers, can't he raise Right-Eye now?
True Resurrection still works like Raise Dead unless the spell description mentions otherwise. Its spell description does not mention that it can return unwilling creatures, and one of the reasons Redcloak didn't try to Raise Right-Eye, besides Xykon telling him not to, was that Right-Eye wouldn't be willing to answer his call.

Kish
2012-01-10, 01:15 PM
Redcloak could have resurrected his brother right after killing him. Xykon pointed out that then he would have to look into eyes that knew he had been willing to kill his brother for Xykon, that he was Xykon's slave, and that he didn't have the balls to do that.

None of that has changed.

Ancalagon
2012-01-10, 01:20 PM
We don't have enough information for me to want to speculate about [...] :smalltongue:

Since when has that kept anyone around here from speculating? :smallbiggrin:


It could be any ninth-level cleric spell without the "Good" or "Chaotic" descriptor. I'm not choosing Miracle; I'm wondering why your footnote is there. If you'd rather not discuss it, just don't reply to this and I probably won't post in this thread again.

I just put it there because I myself would be very careful to assume this spell exists and is always availble. Yes, it is core, but it also poses a big problem with how the story unfurls.
Rich can easily handwave anything away that is hin his way of the story. "Why is character X not doing Y to solve Z in a much better way" is easy to dismiss "because it needs to be this way for the story".
But Miracle is such an obvious choice to use in a very tight situation to just "move everything closer to where you like it" that it is a very critical thing in the hands of the evil people and I'd be easier to just make an exception here.

Miracle does not serve any real purpose to advance the story but CAN be a very problematic thing, so if it did not exist (or was available), it would not surprise me.
No matter what happens, I fear Rich nmight have to drop a word either in the comic or in the forum to "deal" in some way with the miracle-problem (Xykon is not such an issue as he has fixed spells). This also could be circumvented by simply having the spell not "available" at all times for all purposes.

I just wanted to express that with the footnote and what it contained (Miracle) was not on the list of assumptions at the beginning of the comic.

Fitzclowningham
2012-01-10, 01:22 PM
Not to mention that Right-Eye was getting on in years at the end of SOD. It's like 30 years later at this point, so he'd be beyond his natural lifespan, and impossible to raise.

Zevox
2012-01-10, 01:23 PM
I honestly don't think it matters - being a cleric, he knows his entire list, so we'd only be discussing what he prepared that particular day as opposed to what he knows.
Agreed. Due to how Clerics work, it really doesn't matter what other 9th-level spell he prepared that day. He can prepare any of them, and can change which one he prepares daily, so it's not an important piece of information.


Though I do have a question - given his newfound powers, can't he <spoiler snipped> now?
Xykon wouldn't even let him bury Right-Eye back when he killed him. Do you really think he'd let him raise him now? Also, do you actually think Right-Eye would want to come back, especially while Redcloak is still working with Xykon? Or that Redcloak would think it a good idea to try bringing him back given how they parted?

Also, he could've raised Right-Eye back when he first killed him. He had 7th-level spells at the time (he mentions that Right-Eye had asked him not to use regenerate to regrow his eye back when he first got access to that level), and Resurrection or Raise Dead (a 5th-level spell) would both have worked shortly after Right-Eye's death. Actually, Resurrection would've worked at any time, as long as he still has some small portion of his body, because its time limit is 10 years per caster level after the target's death, so he could've raised Right-Eye at any time if he wanted to and Xykon wouldn't forbid it. Which means either he doesn't want to, Xykon wouldn't allow it, or both.
Zevox

Fish
2012-01-10, 01:44 PM
Smart money is that he has already cast it: Monster Summoning IX can summon extraplanar beings such as demons.

Ancalagon
2012-01-10, 01:49 PM
Not to mention that Right-Eye was getting on in years at the end of SOD. It's like 30 years later at this point, so he'd be beyond his natural lifespan, and impossible to raise.

I think you natural lifespan only increases while you are alive. Are the rules explicit here? Can you live 40 years, be dead for a 100, get raised and live out your remaining 30something years?

KillianHawkeye
2012-01-10, 02:05 PM
Old age only stops coming back from the dead if you DIED from it. Literal time spent since birth has no meaning in this context. If the person died too early, then they still have time left.

As for spells, I'm betting he used Gate since horned devils are too strong to be summoned.

Ancalagon
2012-01-10, 02:19 PM
I'd agree, but the last devil seems to pop in by being summoned. He could teleport, though but we do see Redcloak having some spell active in the following, so I assume that is the reminder of his summon-spell (as he's not seen casting something else).
Thus, I assume all the horned devils (if they are horned devils) are summoned (who again summoned the bearded devils).

For summons, they'd last too long, though. That might indicate a Gate-spell or Rich being not strict on the duration of summonings.

Fish
2012-01-10, 03:01 PM
As for spells, I'm betting he used Gate
It's uncertain how Cloister might affect Gate. We know Monster Summoning would work.

Zevox
2012-01-10, 03:32 PM
Smart money is that he has already cast it: Monster Summoning IX can summon extraplanar beings such as demons.
The Summon Monster spells have a duration measured in rounds. Even at Redcloak's level, Summon Monster IX would last less than 2 minutes. I sincerely doubt the demons he has with him were brought in that way. The more likely options are the Planar Ally line of spells or Gate.

Zevox

Ancalagon
2012-01-10, 03:53 PM
Cloiser might actually block a gate. It is not summoning but building a two-way portal from a place on this place to a place on another place. Yet, if cast from the inside, it might a) work or b) be unidirectional. We cannot know, it seems unlikely you can use gate from the outside (cast outside) to get in, that'd be a very unlikely oversight from Dorukan.

Gilphon
2012-01-10, 04:15 PM
30 years? How do you figure? He died outside the dungeon of Dorukan, which Xykon took over ~2 years ago.

AlfredAmeoba
2012-01-10, 04:17 PM
Xykon is the caster of the cloister though, so he might have been able to give Redcloak a bypass command. One could argue that only specific spells with a given ritual can get through given comic 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), but I think its likely that Dorukan still put in a password for simplicity's sake.

As for Xykon getting said password, it might be set at casting. Or it was in the box of wheaties with the headband :smallsmile:

Fish
2012-01-10, 04:27 PM
Haley summoned Celia and there was no password.

The Pilgrim
2012-01-10, 05:16 PM
Haley summoned Celia and there was no password.

Dorukan designed the Cloister spell with an specific exception for Summoning Spells from inside it.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-10, 05:22 PM
Dorukan designed the Cloister spell with an specific exception for Summoning Spells from inside it.

Much to the Resistance's detriment...

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-10, 05:24 PM
Cloiser might actually block a gate. It is not summoning but building a two-way portal from a place on this place to a place on another place. Yet, if cast from the inside, it might a) work or b) be unidirectional. We cannot know, it seems unlikely you can use gate from the outside (cast outside) to get in, that'd be a very unlikely oversight from Dorukan.
Cloister is said to block "transportation magic" and "plane shifting". What it apparently doesn't block are summoning and calling spells. I'm of the opininon that the spell that brought Celia to her broken talisman was a calling spell, since she stayed on the plane and since she felt she could be killed on the mortal plane (instead of reappearing on the Plane of Air, as would be the case if she was killed while the subject of a summoning spell). Since Gate is a calling spell, if I'm right about Celia's talisman, it should work to call creatures into the Cloister from outside.

Fish
2012-01-10, 06:00 PM
Dorukan designed the Cloister spell with an specific exception for Summoning Spells from inside it.
Yes, I know. I was responding to the poster immediately above me, who had claimed that the Cloister spell might have been designed with an access password, allowing Redcloak to cast Gate. We know, because Haley summoned Celia, that no such password system was enacted. I have already stated that I believe Redcloak's other spell is probably Monster Summoning IX for precisely the reasons you mention here we know summoning works; we don't know that Gates do.

Zevox
2012-01-10, 06:19 PM
Yes, I know. I was responding to the poster immediately above me, who had claimed that the Cloister spell might have been designed with an access password, allowing Redcloak to cast Gate. We know, because Haley summoned Celia, that no such password system was enacted. I have already stated that I believe Redcloak's other spell is probably Monster Summoning IX for precisely the reasons you mention here we know summoning works; we don't know that Gates do.
It doesn't actually make any sense for summoning spells to work, but calling spells (like Gate) not to. The only summoning spells, the Summon Monster line, have ridiculously short durations, as I pointed out before. Redcloak would have to have known down to the minute when his targets would arrive for his demons to actually still be around when they showed up, because even if he could extend the spell (and for Summon Monster 9 he couldn't) it would barely last more than 3 minutes. The only summoning-style spells with longer durations are calling spells - the Planar Ally line, the Planar Binding line, and Gate.

Zevox

Fish
2012-01-10, 06:48 PM
It doesn't actually make any sense for summoning spells to work, but calling spells (like Gate) not to.
Since we know that summoning spells do work, and that they are an exception, I don't know that there's anything I can say to that. Sensible or not, Dorukan built an exception into his Cloister which permitted summoning.

Whether Redcloak knew the targets would be arriving is another story; we have no evidence that he did (or didn't).

Math_Mage
2012-01-10, 06:56 PM
Since we know that summoning spells do work, and that they are an exception, I don't know that there's anything I can say to that. Sensible or not, Dorukan built an exception into his Cloister which permitted summoning.

Whether Redcloak knew the targets would be arriving is another story; we have no evidence that he did (or didn't).

Per zimmerwald's reasoning, we have pretty strong evidence that calling spells are also excepted. Is there an alternate interpretation of Celia's talisman? I don't think so, but I'm not a rules guru.

Morthis
2012-01-10, 07:12 PM
Technically it doesn't make much sense for teleport spells to be prevented but other forms of extra-planar travel are allowed. For any teleport type blocking spells I've seen, blocking teleport is only a byproduct of blocking all extra-planar travel. Cloister seems to only block teleport and greater teleport specifically.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-10, 07:19 PM
Technically it doesn't make much sense for teleport spells to be prevented but other forms of extra-planar travel are allowed. For any teleport type blocking spells I've seen, blocking teleport is only a byproduct of blocking all extra-planar travel. Cloister seems to only block teleport and greater teleport specifically.
They're a different category of spells. Teleport, Greater Teleport, Dimension Door, etc. are Conjuration (teleportation) spells. The Summon Monster line are Conjuration (summoning) spells. Planar Binding, Planar Ally, Gate, etc. are Conjuration (calling) spells. Of the three, Cloister is said to block Conjuration (teleportation) spells and to allow Conjuration (summoning) spells. No mention is made of Conjuration (calling) spells, but Celia's talisman seems to operate like a Conjuration (calling) spell, so I would hesitate to say calling spells are blocked.

Oindoth
2012-01-10, 07:21 PM
Technically it doesn't make much sense for teleport spells to be prevented but other forms of extra-planar travel are allowed. For any teleport type blocking spells I've seen, blocking teleport is only a byproduct of blocking all extra-planar travel. Cloister seems to only block teleport and greater teleport specifically.

Well, Conjuration (Teleportation), Conjuration (Calling) and Conjuration (Summoning) are all very different subschools.

Edit: Damnable ninjas!

Fish
2012-01-10, 07:25 PM
Per zimmerwald's reasoning, we have pretty strong evidence that calling spells are also excepted. Is there an alternate interpretation of Celia's talisman? I don't think so, but I'm not a rules guru.
Strong evidence? No. Rather the opposite. There's not much wiggle room.

Interpretation of the summoning? Read 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) again. It specifically says all forms of travel and scrying were blocked ... except summoning. Not "many forms of travel," or "a few key methods, but not including calling." It says:


Teleportation, scrying, plane shifting, dimension doors, locating creatures, sending ethereal jaunts, you name it, it blocked it.

For some reason, Dorukan built a specific exception to summoning spells into the Cloister's effect. I still don't know why.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-10, 07:54 PM
Interpretation of the summoning? Read 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) again. It specifically says all forms of travel and scrying were blocked ... except summoning. Not "many forms of travel," or "a few key methods, but not including calling." It says:
Celia isn't necessarily expert enough to know the difference between summoning and calling. She's a lawyer and she was a sigil guardian and student before that. Plus she seems to get buy on natural instincts and senses where magic is concerned. She needn't have even one point in Spellcraft. She says her talisman works like a summoning spell when everything we know about it suggests it works more like a calling spell. She sticks around for weeks rather than a few rounds, for instance. Furthermore, the duration of Dorukan's "summoning" of Lirian would be too short for the kind of lovemaking suggested by the rosepetal bed.

Morthis
2012-01-10, 08:00 PM
Well, Conjuration (Teleportation), Conjuration (Calling) and Conjuration (Summoning) are all very different subschools.

Edit: Damnable ninjas!

I understand that part, I'm just talking about spells that block teleport tend to be designed around blocking all extra-planar spells, which summons and callings are (at least I think summons fall under that as well).

I decided to look at epic spells to see how cloister might be made. Only seed I can see that fits is ward, and only way to keep the ward spellcraft DC realistic is by making it pick specific spells to block rather than blocking all spells (even then the DC would be unrealistic). So I guess it's possible cloister simply blocks teleport and greater teleport specifically, along with various divination spells. That doesn't explain why V's scrying wouldn't work (since it blocks specific spells in this case), but Rich has made it clear before that the story always comes before the rules.

Math_Mage
2012-01-10, 08:10 PM
Strong evidence? No. Rather the opposite. There's not much wiggle room.

Interpretation of the summoning? Read 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) again. It specifically says all forms of travel and scrying were blocked ... except summoning. Not "many forms of travel," or "a few key methods, but not including calling." It says:

All right, then you get to explain what Celia's talisman did with only a summoning spell. Otherwise, actions speak louder than words.

olthar
2012-01-10, 08:20 PM
I understand that part, I'm just talking about spells that block teleport tend to be designed around blocking all extra-planar spells, which summons and callings are (at least I think summons fall under that as well).

I decided to look at epic spells to see how cloister might be made. Only seed I can see that fits is ward, and only way to keep the ward spellcraft DC realistic is by making it pick specific spells to block rather than blocking all spells (even then the DC would be unrealistic). So I guess it's possible cloister simply blocks teleport and greater teleport specifically, along with various divination spells. That doesn't explain why V's scrying wouldn't work (since it blocks specific spells in this case), but Rich has made it clear before that the story always comes before the rules.
There are a few good explanations out there that show how to make the DC of any epic spell easy.

KillianHawkeye
2012-01-10, 08:55 PM
Celia isn't necessarily expert enough to know the difference between summoning and calling. She's a lawyer and she was a sigil guardian and student before that. Plus she seems to get buy on natural instincts and senses where magic is concerned. She needn't have even one point in Spellcraft. She says her talisman works like a summoning spell when everything we know about it suggests it works more like a calling spell. She sticks around for weeks rather than a few rounds, for instance. Furthermore, the duration of Dorukan's "summoning" of Lirian would be too short for the kind of lovemaking suggested by the rosepetal bed.

Pretty much this. Celia doesn't know the difference (and honestly, the two types have pretty similar effects).

And again, Summon Monster can't be used to get horned devils because they are too powerful. Summon Monster IX can only get the CR 11 barbed devil. Horned devils are CR 16. Now, being a stick figure comic, we don't know for sure that Redcloak's minions here are horned devils, but they fit the description and their most prominent feature is their horns, so I think it's the safest assumption. Add in the timing issues mentioned by others, and we can probably rule out Summon Monster as the method Redcloak used to get these guys.

Zevox
2012-01-10, 09:07 PM
Since we know that summoning spells do work, and that they are an exception, I don't know that there's anything I can say to that. Sensible or not, Dorukan built an exception into his Cloister which permitted summoning.
Yes - and what you're missing is that calling spells are functionally identical to summoning ones. The two do the same thing: summon extraplanar beings to this plane of existence. The distinction between them is a minor one of game rules, dealing primarily with what happens to the creature if it's killed while on the plane it was summoned summoned to (for "summoning" spells it isn't, it's instead sent back to its home plane, for "calling " spells it is) and a few other minutia (i.e. creatures summoned via a "summoning" spell cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities they have to summon more creatures, ones summoned via a "calling" spell can).

Most likely the exception encompasses both. Rich almost certainly doesn't follow the rules closely enough to note the distinction.

...and actually, reading Celia's statement about it again, it doesn't even need that exception. She says that "You could cast them [the spell Cloister blocks] within the area, or even from inside the field to outside, but anyone on the outside of the boundary would get nothing but busy signals and error messages." So within the Cloister, all of those things work just fine, you just can't use them from the outside going in. And since Redcloak is within the Cloister, that means he can use any kind of spells just fine, and it won't inhibit him in the least. Which actually means that the exception for summoning wasn't even needed to begin with, since Dorukon could cast whatever spells he wanted from within the Cloister to bring others to him just from the way the spell is designed to begin with. I guess Rich overdid it when he made explanations for how Celia's summoning talisman managed to work in spite of the Cloister effect.

Zevox

Flame of Anor
2012-01-10, 09:56 PM
Celia isn't necessarily expert enough to know the difference between summoning and calling. She's a lawyer and she was a sigil guardian and student before that. Plus she seems to get buy on natural instincts and senses where magic is concerned. She needn't have even one point in Spellcraft. She says her talisman works like a summoning spell when everything we know about it suggests it works more like a calling spell. She sticks around for weeks rather than a few rounds, for instance. Furthermore, the duration of Dorukan's "summoning" of Lirian would be too short for the kind of lovemaking suggested by the rosepetal bed.

This. The simplest explanation is just that Cloister does allow calling, and the description of it as only allowing summoning was just misleading.

Anarion
2012-01-10, 10:15 PM
Since when has that kept anyone around here from speculating? :smallbiggrin:



I just put it there because I myself would be very careful to assume this spell exists and is always availble. Yes, it is core, but it also poses a big problem with how the story unfurls.
Rich can easily handwave anything away that is hin his way of the story. "Why is character X not doing Y to solve Z in a much better way" is easy to dismiss "because it needs to be this way for the story".
But Miracle is such an obvious choice to use in a very tight situation to just "move everything closer to where you like it" that it is a very critical thing in the hands of the evil people and I'd be easier to just make an exception here.

Miracle does not serve any real purpose to advance the story but CAN be a very problematic thing, so if it did not exist (or was available), it would not surprise me.
No matter what happens, I fear Rich nmight have to drop a word either in the comic or in the forum to "deal" in some way with the miracle-problem (Xykon is not such an issue as he has fixed spells). This also could be circumvented by simply having the spell not "available" at all times for all purposes.

I just wanted to express that with the footnote and what it contained (Miracle) was not on the list of assumptions at the beginning of the comic.

I'd like to add here that there already is a good reason why miracle might not exist in the OoTS universe. The Snarl. The whole idea was that existence was unmade because the gods fought too much and interfered with one another, tangling the threads of existence. The response was for the gods to evenly divide up existence and they make great efforts to prevent each other from interfering in their respective domains. Miracle, which is basically just a free pass for a god to intervene as directed by a cleric, could go directly against the celestial agreement not to interfere with other gods, and might be banned outright.

Obviously, that was rife speculation, but it's no unreasonable to suggest that the problems of celestial competition would keep miracle out of use.


Yes - and what you're missing is that calling spells are functionally identical to summoning ones. The two do the same thing: summon extraplanar beings to this plane of existence. The distinction between them is a minor one of game rules, dealing primarily with what happens to the creature if it's killed while on the plane it was summoned summoned to (for "summoning" spells it isn't, it's instead sent back to its home plane, for "calling " spells it is) and a few other minutia (i.e. creatures summoned via a "summoning" spell cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities they have to summon more creatures, ones summoned via a "calling" spell can).

Most likely the exception encompasses both. Rich almost certainly doesn't follow the rules closely enough to note the distinction.

...and actually, reading Celia's statement about it again, it doesn't even need that exception. She says that "You could cast them [the spell Cloister blocks] within the area, or even from inside the field to outside, but anyone on the outside of the boundary would get nothing but busy signals and error messages." So within the Cloister, all of those things work just fine, you just can't use them from the outside going in. And since Redcloak is within the Cloister, that means he can use any kind of spells just fine, and it won't inhibit him in the least. Which actually means that the exception for summoning wasn't even needed to begin with, since Dorukon could cast whatever spells he wanted from within the Cloister to bring others to him just from the way the spell is designed to begin with. I guess Rich overdid it when he made explanations for how Celia's summoning talisman managed to work in spite of the Cloister effect.

Zevox

I don't think calling spells and summoning spells are functionally identical. Yes, they both get something to you from elsewhere, but so do teleport and ethereal jaunt. I also don't think you could plane shift into a cloister. Summoning is a very short duration ongoing magical tie to the current plane, calling actually gets some other being physically present at your location.

Moreover, I do think Rich is well-informed enough of the rules to notice the difference. He might not care, but I'd rather give him credit and say that Celia is wrong/making an incomplete statement.

Also, I can't believe that summoning Lirian was really summoning. Even if Dorukan was leveled into the high 20s, 2-3 minutes is simply not enough time for the likely purposes that he brought Lirian into his dungeon. He almost surely needed a longer duration [calling] subschool spell.

Fish
2012-01-10, 11:52 PM
Celia isn't necessarily expert enough to know the difference between summoning and calling. She's a lawyer...
He said summoning, in multiple locations throughout the story, such as here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html). Rich has no reason to lie to the readers and call it summoning when he means something else; it would serve no narrative purpose to lie (ie, to have Celia be wrong). Or do you think this is all part of the Giant's elaborate plot to mislead you into guessing incorrectly what Redcloak's other 9th-level spells are?

All right, then you get to explain what Celia's talisman did with only a summoning spell. Otherwise, actions speak louder than words.
I won't explain how, because I don't have to. Moreover, I can't nobody can. Rich has explicitly said that he does not always follow the rules of D&D. If you're combing through spell lists looking at durations and casting times, you're wasting your time. It happened ... because Rich said it happened.

Otherwise ... always ... author speaks louder than rulebook.

Yes - and what you're missing is that calling spells are functionally identical to summoning ones.
Who cares about that? A airplane and a hang glider are functionally equivalent in that they get you places through the air, but they're not identical things.

Edit: Also functionally equivalent are Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm) and Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm). Blocks all light, including infravision; 20% concealment. One is an evocation and the other a conjuration.

All of the objections so far are assuming facts not in evidence. Namely:

1. Rich didn't mean "summoning" when he said "summoning." You have to believe the author is a) wrong or b) misleading. Why not believe the author is c) right?

2. Redcloak has been there for a long time, waiting with these demons; therefore it can't be a summoning spell. We don't know how long he's been there, or whether he was waiting deliberately for their return, or when he cast his spell. Even supposing we knew all of that, then who says it can't be a summoning spell? The rulebook? See above: author speaks louder than rulebook.

3. The rulebooks contain information that is always relevant to the plot, because Rich always follows every rule to the letter. No, they don't, because no, he doesn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11)

4. It can't be a spell because it's a horned demon. Says who? A kinda similar-looking stick figure? Maybe? Hardly authoritative.


Most likely the exception encompasses both. Rich almost certainly doesn't follow the rules closely enough to note the distinction.
This is the best explanation yet. Rich wanted it to work a certain way, and either didn't know (or didn't give a damn) about the difference. Bottom line: it works because he says it does; he's the author.

So within the Cloister, all of those things work just fine, you just can't use them from the outside going in. And since Redcloak is within the Cloister, that means he can use any kind of spells just fine, and it won't inhibit him in the least. Which actually means that the exception for summoning wasn't even needed to begin with, since Dorukon could cast whatever spells he wanted from within the Cloister to bring others to him ...
First: we believe it's possible to cast Gate from inside Cloister; we don't know for certain whether it's possible to use that Gate to enter the Cloister. That's why I said "the smart money is on Monster Summoning," partly because we know Redcloak has used Monster Summoning before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) (a lower level, but still ... and it lasts long enough for him to march his army into the city, so ... yeah, I hardly think Rich cares about spell durations here).

Second: if Dorukan can cast spells from inside the Cloister to bring in allies, so can the bad guys. It's not a loophole he'd be likely to leave, is it? In fact, if calling spells are long-term spells to summon powerful extraplanar allies, and summoning spells are short-term, that's all the more reason to leave summons as the only exception.

Zevox
2012-01-11, 12:03 AM
First: we believe it's possible to cast Gate from inside Cloister; we don't know for certain whether it's possible to use that Gate to enter the Cloister.
You're making a distinction that doesn't exist. The spell explicitly allows those inside of it to use any spell and have it work. Redcloak is on the inside, so if he casts a gate, it will work.


That's why I said "the smart money is on Monster Summoning," partly because we know Redcloak has used Monster Summoning before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) (a lower level, but still ... and it lasts long enough for him to march his army into the city, so ... yeah, I hardly think Rich cares about spell durations here).
The only Summon Monster spell we've seen Redcloak use did last for a short time. The Mammoth disappeared shortly after he entered the city, when he confronted the city's High Priest. And that was an extended spell at that, lasting twice as long as normal.


Second: if Dorukan can cast spells from inside the Cloister to bring in allies, so can the bad guys. It's not a loophole he'd be likely to leave, is it?
Sure it is. The purpose of the spell was to keep the bad guys from entering the area to begin with - if they're in already, its purpose has failed. Besides, it's a loophole he explicitly left by the specified summoning exception.

Zevox

Fish
2012-01-11, 12:08 AM
Sure it is. The purpose of the spell was to keep the bad guys from entering the area to begin with
Er, no. The purpose was to keep bad guys from entering the area magically. You can walk into and out of it with ease; Cloister was not designed to prevent all entry. Celia and her girlfriends left the Cloister all the time to go to Serfway.

With the loophole you describe, any bad guy could walk in and summon an extraplanar army.

Anarion
2012-01-11, 01:21 AM
1. Rich didn't mean "summoning" when he said "summoning." You have to believe the author is a) wrong or b) misleading. Why not believe the author is c) right?


I just want to address this one point, although much of the remainder of your argument is valid. Summoning is a much more evocative term than calling. Moreover, calling has much broader meanings and would only be understood in context by people with a deep knowledge of the D&D rules. I'm not even sure that most regular players make the distinction between calling and summoning in the magic rules.

Even if Rich did mean calling, it would make sense to use the term summoning in order to make the comic clearer, more accessible to a lay audience, and easier to understand when read quickly.


Er, no. The purpose was to keep bad guys from entering the area magically. You can walk into and out of it with ease; Cloister was not designed to prevent all entry. Celia and her girlfriends left the Cloister all the time to go to Serfway.

With the loophole you describe, any bad guy could walk in and summon an extraplanar army.

Any bad guy could walk in and summon an extraplanar army. All spells cast inside the cloister already work, as has been noted a bunch of times. Presumably Dorukan figured that he had enough guards, other wards, and scrying spells that if someone tried to come in the front door he could stop them. Cloister is about preventing back door access, not defending an entire city on its own.

The Giant
2012-01-11, 01:54 AM
I just want to address this one point, although much of the remainder of your argument is valid. Summoning is a much more evocative term than calling. Moreover, calling has much broader meanings and would only be understood in context by people with a deep knowledge of the D&D rules. I'm not even sure that most regular players make the distinction between calling and summoning in the magic rules.

Even if Rich did mean calling, it would make sense to use the term summoning in order to make the comic clearer, more accessible to a lay audience, and easier to understand when read quickly.

Anarion's right on the money here.

More than half of the readers of OOTS do not play D&D at all, and half of those that do play only casually. The average reader does not know what "calling" means in the context of D&D, especially when the plot makes frequent use of the spell sending, which is a poorly-named method of "calling" another person up and talking to them, as you would on the phone. Thus, I don't use the word. I use "summoning" regardless of whether it was a summoning or calling spell, because it doesn't really matter.

As was pointed out, I don't always follow the rules...including the rules on what things are named.


With the loophole you describe, any bad guy could walk in and summon an extraplanar army.

Yes. This is true. It is not a perfect defense.

Summoning/calling spells work if cast within the Cloister. As pointed out by Zevox, any extradimensional travel spell cast from within the Cloister works normally just by the nature of the effect. Yes, that makes Celia's mention of Dorukan's specific exception somewhat redundant, but A.) that was a fairly complex bit of exposition and I wanted it to be certain that everyone understood that summoning could still happen, and B.) it provided me with a good punchline and a way to show that Lirian and Dorukan were cheating on their oaths. So I tolerated some redundancy.

-------------------

Also, as a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, "There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!" until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is.

Sometimes, the narrative purpose is to set up something that won't happen for 200 strips. Sometimes, it's to enable a joke, or to make the narrative easier to understand for non-players. Sometimes, it's just to stop people from wondering why they didn't use a different spell. And sometimes, it's just a deliberate red herring because this is a serialized story that won't reach its ending for another few years and I don't want everyone to predict what's going to happen along the way. All of those (and more) are legitimate reasons to have a character say or do something, even if not all of them apply to your personal reading experience.

Bad Hair Day
2012-01-11, 05:01 AM
this is a serialized story that won't reach its ending for another few years and I don't want everyone to predict what's going to happen along the way.

Few years? Excellent. "Few" is more than a couple but less than several. It took about 9 years to do 825 comics. I'll call it an average of almost 100 comics a year. So that gives us, say, just under 500 more strips.

Interesting. I would have guessed a lot fewer than that. So it would seem that RC and the OOTS will probably be into epic levels by the time all is said and done.

"predicting what's going to happen along the way" is half the fun!

BHD

StrykerX
2012-01-11, 05:49 AM
Er, no. The purpose was to keep bad guys from entering the area magically. You can walk into and out of it with ease; Cloister was not designed to prevent all entry. Celia and her girlfriends left the Cloister all the time to go to Serfway.

With the loophole you describe, any bad guy could walk in and summon an extraplanar army.

Technically, the Cloister was designed to keep enemies from magically entering the area or magically spying on it. Dorukan's home was a fortified dungeon... he had plenty of protection against bad guys just walking in physically. What he needed was a way to keep them from magically bypassing his defenses, which is what Cloister does. By blocking scrying it forces enemies to locate the dungeon through mundane means (or indirectly through magic, like reading someone's mind who knows where it is) and also ensures that an invading enemy will not know the internal layout (which interferes with point to point teleports / dimension doors within the Cloistered area). Once an enemy breaches the outer defenses they can presumably use any magic they want except maybe scrying (since Cloister's anti-scrying effect works on each individual creature, object, and location in its radius) and could indeed call / gate in extraplanar beings. However, they'd have to get in first, and Dorukan could call up his own extraplanar allies if he wanted. For that matter an invader could freely teleport around the dungeon once they got in, but without scrying that would only let them safely move around the parts they had already seen.

As far as the 2nd 9th level spell goes, it depends on what his domains are. I'm assuming he almost certainly has Evil, so if Implosion is his standard spell then Summon Monster IX from the Evil domain is likely. If his second domain is Destruction (quite possible, but not certain) then Implosion could be his domain spell and in that case I suspect Gate was the standard one. It all depends on whether his domains are Evil + Destruction, Evil + Law, or Evil + Death (or something else, though I consider those three the most likely choices).

factotum
2012-01-11, 07:42 AM
Once an enemy breaches the outer defenses they can presumably use any magic they want except maybe scrying (since Cloister's anti-scrying effect works on each individual creature, object, and location in its radius) and could indeed call / gate in extraplanar beings.

It was explicitly stated by Celia in #532 that the Cloister spell had an exception built into it for summoning spells, and the accompanying panel showed that Dorukan did that so he could transport Lirian to his bedchamber when they wanted to meet up. (Presumably he could also send her back again, so outgoing teleports wouldn't be prohibited either).

Kish
2012-01-11, 08:14 AM
It was explicitly stated by Celia in #532 that the Cloister spell had an exception built into it for summoning spells, and the accompanying panel showed that Dorukan did that so he could transport Lirian to his bedchamber when they wanted to meet up. (Presumably he could also send her back again, so outgoing teleports wouldn't be prohibited either).
No need to presume; Celia said outright that the Cloister doesn't bar teleportation (a word which the board's spellchecker oddly doesn't know) from inside to anywhere, just from outside to inside.

Trixie
2012-01-11, 10:14 AM
Well... I might remember wrong, but isn't this whole discussion pointless as Dorukan used Gate to battle Xykon while inside Cloister anyway? :smallconfused:

Ancalagon
2012-01-11, 11:03 AM
He was far outside of his dungeon. He himself was still under the effect but he had left the area of the Cloister by a lot.

He first teleported to Xykon's cliff, then casted his Gate.

Trixie
2012-01-11, 11:45 AM
Was he? :smallconfused:

I was working under assumption that, if Cloister was able to cover all of Gobbotopia, it would also cover the area where Dorukan fought, too. After all, why invent protective spell than do battle outside the area it covers robbing yourself of that advantage?

But, as I said, it was some time since I have read that part.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-11, 11:51 AM
Was he? :smallconfused:

I was working under assumption that, if Cloister was able to cover all of Gobbotopia, it would also cover the area where Dorukan fought, too. After all, why invent protective spell than do battle outside the area it covers robbing yourself of that advantage?

But, as I said, it was some time since I have read that part.
I think it's been pretty well established that, INT score notwithstanding, Dorukan was a bit thick.

Zevox
2012-01-11, 02:01 PM
Er, no. The purpose was to keep bad guys from entering the area magically. You can walk into and out of it with ease; Cloister was not designed to prevent all entry. Celia and her girlfriends left the Cloister all the time to go to Serfway.

With the loophole you describe, any bad guy could walk in and summon an extraplanar army.
Yes, I didn't think I needed to specify that. The part which keeps the bad guys from just walking in is the dungeon fortress that Dorukon had constructed, not the spell.

And I see that we actually attracted a response from the Giant here. So, debate settled. Thank you very much Giant. :smallsmile:


Well... I might remember wrong, but isn't this whole discussion pointless as Dorukan used Gate to battle Xykon while inside Cloister anyway? :smallconfused:
I thought of that as well, but when Celia describes the spell in comic 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), she says that it covers an area "up to several miles wide" (emphasis mine), so it doesn't necessarily cover the same size area every time its cast, and the image that accompanies her exposition shows Dorukon casting it and just his dungeon glowing with the spell's aura, so it's distinctly possible that he limited it just to the dungeon itself. Which makes sense - if he encompassed a larger area then people could enter the cloister effect while still outside the dungeon, and teleport in/scy/whatever from there. The combination of the dungeon and the cloister spell were supposed to make it nigh impossible to enter, so leaving a gaping gap in his defenses like that would be kind of dumb.

Zevox

Ancalagon
2012-01-11, 02:12 PM
The distance also seemed pretty far to me, it could very well be outside of the cloister.

AlfredAmeoba
2012-01-11, 04:07 PM
Also in the graphic of Dorukon casting cloister it only includes his castle/dungeon. Also, SoD spoiler with the battle description...?

Any point of the cloister's caster (or his allies) seemingly breaking the rules of the cloister seem moot, however. As I was saying earlier, Dorukon almost certainly had a password so he could bypass his own defenses.

SoD spoiler
He almost certainly would have left that as an escape route to get back behind his own defenses when he teleported out to fight Xykon

Xykon, having power of the cloister, could give any passcode to the spell's effects to Redcloak to use.

Also, I think we can assume that Redcloak has the destruction domain as I think it is the only way for a cleric to get disintegrate (comic 480 on Hinjo).

DaveMcW
2012-01-11, 05:32 PM
There is no passcode. If there was, he would have used it to hunt down O-Chul.