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Leliel
2012-01-11, 04:37 PM
Basically, I got Imperial Mysteries for the Mage the Awakening line when it came out, and it. Is. Fracking. Awesome.

One of the antagonist factions, the Aswadim (Scelesti archmages-think of them as sympathetic Nephandi) really captured my imagination, though, and I was inspired to create a BBEG based on them (or is one, if I ever run an Imperial chronicle), and like all cerebral bad guys, they have a motive rant wherein they explain their point of view. And before you ask, this is an idea for PbP, so no Genre Savvy sneak attacks.

Basically, I wanted to show a semi-rational reason for serving Alien Horrors From Beyond reality, made by a somewhat sane man. Here it is:

"The Dark is vast and varied. A force that is both agency and lack thereof, born from both an absence of light and the secrets contained therein.

"Small minds, whether out of lacking understanding or the bravery to admit their inability to seek it, call the Dark 'evil' or 'wicked', but their ignorance shows itself. Those initiated into the shadow of the world know that the Dark is simply the Dark-wicked and evil things hide therein, but also innocence escaping prosecution, or solutions to problems caused by those living in the light, hidden through no fault of it's own.

"The Void is little different. Those aware of it's existence call it 'unclean' or 'alien', but to ones as enlightened as we are, we understand this to not be true. The Void is simply a realm containing that which this awful, diseased world of Law has rendered impossible, whether it be plagues or medicines, curses or blessings, demons or angels.

"What sages call the 'world' is nothing less then the enslavement of a realm of energy and will to an abnormal, banal reality that crushes all possibilities and renders those caught within unable to live to their full potential. This 'Prison of Forms' shall eventually destroy itself under the weight of it's own cruelty and apathy, but the suffering caused by it's downfall will be everlasting, lest it be euthanized for it's own benefit.

"For to truly alleviate the suffering of the cosmos, one must dissolve the false concepts of Order and Chaos, Being and Unbeing, and create a universe where the only suffering is what one needs to define him, as a master of everything and nothing. War, division, loneliness-none will occur unless it be permitted by the new humanity, and then only until they tire of it.

"Such is the nature of Utopia-for as the term implies, the world will only be perfect when there is no world, but what we make from the dance of Formlessness, as then all who desire a world of their own may have it, and those who do not agree may leave, and allow their fellows the paradise they have summoned.

"Wouldn't you agree, my rivals?"

So...good? Any revisions that would make it better, for what I'm trying to accomplish (a person who made the decision, based on the evidence, that remaking humanity into Old Ones is the smart idea)?

Chess435
2012-01-11, 05:01 PM
:smallbiggrin:


That's pretty darn awesome. I'd give it an A.

Rorrik
2012-01-11, 05:16 PM
I love it! Its ideas about the collapse of the status quo in the form of Law reminds me of Marx's Communist Manifesto. If you need more inspiration, that could be a useful perusal.

...lest it be euthanized for it's own benefit.

I think is what you intended, otherwise, epic, A.

DarkEricDraven
2012-01-11, 05:59 PM
I'd say job well done, my friend.

Tengu_temp
2012-01-11, 09:58 PM
As someone who loves to make his bad guys ramble, I'll say: it's too long. Your players will probably just stop paying attention after the first two paragraphs, and the response you'll get to his last question will be "you done talking already?" or something like that. Also, it kinda feels like a forced infodump. Also also, while "talking is a free action" is a good excuse to make a bad guy talk forever, "it's a PbP game" really isn't - even in PbP games you can interrupt other people, you know, and not giving your players the opportunities to do so when they should be able to do so is unfair. Personally, I just tend to make my bad guys talk in the middle of fighting.

Tyndmyr
2012-01-12, 02:19 PM
It's long. It provides no compelling argument for the way it sees things, it is merely a statement of opinion without evidence.

Also, dualism of the Everything And Nothing variety is not, by itself, terribly rational if you're going for portraying sanity. Sane people do not ramble on in unjustified impossibilities.

Leliel
2012-01-12, 02:58 PM
It's long. It provides no compelling argument for the way it sees things, it is merely a statement of opinion without evidence.

Also, dualism of the Everything And Nothing variety is not, by itself, terribly rational if you're going for portraying sanity. Sane people do not ramble on in unjustified impossibilities.

..Dude?

That's the whole point.

Look up Motive Rant under TV Tropes. It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact as the BBEG sees it.

He's, quite simply, a zealot. And there's not such thing as arguing with a zealot, only making his ideals seem ridiculous to everyone else.

As for the second part...really?

In a word: "Gnosticism." And for more words: "Any sane religious person, ever."

Tyndmyr
2012-01-12, 03:15 PM
..Dude?

That's the whole point.

Look up Motive Rant under TV Tropes. It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact as the BBEG sees it.

And if those "statement of facts" don't line up with reality in some way, and have no support whatsoever, then it's not a useful example. The very page you point to indicates that it exists to elaborate upon and explain plot.


He's, quite simply, a zealot. And there's not such thing as arguing with a zealot, only making his ideals seem ridiculous to everyone else.

It's not important THAT he's a zealot. It's important WHY he's a zealot. He should at least have understandable motives.


As for the second part...really?

In a word: "Gnosticism." And for more words: "Any sane religious person, ever."

Gnosticism does not hinge on self-contradiction. As for claiming these are the beliefs of "any sane religious people ever"...that's both immensely insulting to many religious folks and probably well beyond the bounds of what the forum allows. I prefer not to delve further into this topic except to encourage more research before making such claims.

If you make a post asking for feedback, you can't really be surprised when you get some that isn't entirely flattering.

Dr. Yes
2012-01-12, 03:44 PM
It's not important THAT he's a zealot. It's important WHY he's a zealot. He should at least have understandable motives.

People don't usually tell other people why they hold the beliefs they do unless they're just in the mood to be incredibly candid. If a door-to-door evangelist were to tell you, "I believe that these things are true because they are held as such by a group where I feel particularly welcome," that might be very nice for him, and it helps you to understand him as a person, but it certainly isn't going to convince you to come around to his position. Most people basically know this, and you could assume that Leliel's BBEG would be the same, so it wouldn't make sense for him to lay out why he's placed his faith in the Void. He's merely tossing out nuggets of enlightenment in the hopes that the adventurers will come around to what he sees as the obvious, inalienable truth.

Tyndmyr
2012-01-12, 04:55 PM
People don't usually tell other people why they hold the beliefs they do unless they're just in the mood to be incredibly candid. If a door-to-door evangelist were to tell you, "I believe that these things are true because they are held as such by a group where I feel particularly welcome," that might be very nice for him, and it helps you to understand him as a person, but it certainly isn't going to convince you to come around to his position. Most people basically know this, and you could assume that Leliel's BBEG would be the same, so it wouldn't make sense for him to lay out why he's placed his faith in the Void. He's merely tossing out nuggets of enlightenment in the hopes that the adventurers will come around to what he sees as the obvious, inalienable truth.

That may be, and the reasons given to you may not be the real reasons either...but the evangelist will at least attempt to lay out a persuasive argument with reasons included.

This comes across as much more of a mad bomber's manifesto that it does a plausible explanation. If you want "sane" to be a character trait presented, you have to support that.

Dr. Yes
2012-01-12, 06:42 PM
That may be, and the reasons given to you may not be the real reasons either...but the evangelist will at least attempt to lay out a persuasive argument with reasons included.

This comes across as much more of a mad bomber's manifesto that it does a plausible explanation. If you want "sane" to be a character trait presented, you have to support that.

Meh. Difference of opinion, I guess. I find nothing inherently contradictory in the speech, going on the assumption that the Void is an actual known place in-universe. From there you can infer that Lord Monologue has been consorting with residents of that alien place, who may well have brought him around to their unique perspective on the nature of the mortal realm.

That said, it's a bit long-winded. Also, "lest" is used incorrectly here; what I think you mean to say is "unless it is euthanized for its own benefit."

Leliel
2012-01-12, 09:30 PM
Yeah, the "long-winded" part is pretty true. I actually wanted the BBEG here to be part of an RP-intensive game, where long posts are encouraged. Still, if it needs to be shortened, I can remove a paragraph.

Truth is, if you've played Bayonetta, I was inspired by Father Balder's introduction scene, where he makes a speech about his philosophy before he actually talks to the titular character herself and reveals how deeply he's influenced the story. Also like that, I was imagining that most of the speech seems like he's rambling to himself..until he reaches that last line and swivels around to face the heroes.

Also-as mentioned before, he's an Aswadim. If there's anything self-contradictory in his speech, he's probably both aware and proud of it. The Void is the domain of paradoxes, after all.