OOTS #827 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

RaggedAngel

2012-01-13, 08:13 AM

It seems pretty clear that Redcloak does not intend to tell Xykon about what happened here; that also explains why he only brought summons and no other goblins. Is he going to conceal the phylactery? I find it pretty likely, but that may be the straw that breaks his relationship with Xykon, even if he only conceals it for a short period of time.

It is, however, rather interesting to watch him display the sheer power a high level Tier 1 should have; bringing in an army with nothing but magic, personally killing a half-dozen midlevel people, and then leveling the place when he's finished. Good show, Redcloak. Good show.

Eisenfavl

2012-01-13, 08:14 AM

Hey, so Redcloak is going to try and keep hold of the phylactery? I suppose it stops Xykon from just beating it out of him.

Wonder how he will convince the lich to move on without it, though.

Feytalist

2012-01-13, 08:14 AM

I just love how Redcloak does everything so matter-of-factly these days.

Pity about Thanh, though. And the whole resistance, really.

Surfing HalfOrc

2012-01-13, 08:14 AM

Wow. Redcloak is Hardcore! :smallmad:

Killer Angel

2012-01-13, 08:14 AM

Thanh, you died a hero.

Indeed, kudos to him.
I'm glad at least Niu escaped.

Anyway, I admire redcloack's new acquired self control...

TheJayPhoenix

2012-01-13, 08:15 AM

Wow, just wow.

Redcloak is well on his way to becoming a character the could potentially take over the world on his own.

Valley

2012-01-13, 08:15 AM

:redcloak:"Stupid risks are just that: Stupid."

HandofShadows

2012-01-13, 08:17 AM

Poor Thanh. At least he went out with honor and bravely. Redcloak has really learned nothing though. He is still clearly able to kill his own kind/alies without any real regret.

Cracklord

2012-01-13, 08:19 AM

Just what I wanted, nay needed, to see. And this is why Xykon and Redcloak are the main villains, and General Tarquin is a detour.

Xiander

2012-01-13, 08:19 AM

So you could say that loosing an eye opened his eyes... eye... the one he has left. :smallwink:

Raven777

2012-01-13, 08:21 AM

Trying to hide the phylactery from Xykon can't turn out well in the end...:smalleek:

faustin

2012-01-13, 08:23 AM

Poor Thanh. At least he went out with honor and bravely. Redcloak has really learned nothing though. He is still clearly able to kill his own kind/alies without any real regret.

And yet, after a few strips from here still will be people who claim Redcloak is a misundestood hero, instead of a bastard with saviour complex.

ss49

2012-01-13, 08:23 AM

Pop
Pop
Pop
Pop!

did the summoned monsters take their pay back with them?

And when will Xykon learn of this?

Leewei

2012-01-13, 08:23 AM

Awesome strip. I've got a nitpick, though -- dead polymorph targets return to their normal forms.

Julian84

2012-01-13, 08:25 AM

Redcloak... Hm. Considering you were going to kill the goblin anyways, I don't think you've learned too much.

Also, if he tries to hide it from Xykon, he's going to get crushed. Hard.

The Glyphstone

2012-01-13, 08:29 AM

Awesome strip. I've got a nitpick, though -- dead polymorph targets return to their normal forms.

I got the impression that was his normal form - it wasn't a hobgoblin Polymorphed into a human, it was a human collaborator with the hobgoblins who infiltrated the resistance by pretending to be a slave.

The Pink Ninja

2012-01-13, 08:30 AM

Yeah, Red Cloak is my fave antagonist and possibly my fave character and stuff like this is the reason why.

My bet is he tells Xykon they will maybe never find the phylectary and the best defence is a good offence: Once they control a Gate no one will be able to take them on and it will be irrelevant.

Just what I wanted, nay needed, to see. And this is why Xykon and Redcloak are the main villains, and General Tarquin is a detour.

Tarq has nothing on RC

Palthera

2012-01-13, 08:31 AM

Yay! Niu got away and with a scroll of sending to let everyone else know! Not a total loss... poor Thahn...

suszterpatt

2012-01-13, 08:31 AM

Redcloak... Hm. Considering you were going to kill the goblin anyways, I don't think you've learned too much.

Also, if he tries to hide it from Xykon, he's going to get crushed. Hard.
The death of one goblinoid may easily be justified (for a Lawful Evil character, anyway) if there's some larger agenda at work, which seems to be the case.

luc258

2012-01-13, 08:32 AM

This explains why he didn't bring any goblins with him.

So, what plans could Red Cloak have with the phylactery?

My first guess:
he wants to delay them moving to the gate to wrap things up in Gobbotopia

Winter Light

2012-01-13, 08:32 AM

A pity about Thanh; he was a pretty cool guy.

That said, anyone seeing some parallels between Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html) and Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0802.html)?

Specifically, they seem to have reached rather similar epiphanies, though Redcloak chatted about it a bit longer.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 08:32 AM

Redcloak... Hm. Considering you were going to kill the goblin anyways, I don't think you've learned too much.

There's a difference between a reckless assault and a deliberate sacrifice. Before, he didn't bother to change his inefficient tactics resulting in unnecessary losses because of no love lost between him and hobgoblins. Now, keeping the spy dead is a deliberate part of his tactics to reduce the risk of Xykon discovering this.

On a side note, I'll be kinda disappointed if Redcloak now walks straight into Xykon or Tsukiko and has the phylactery taken off him again. I'd like this ruse to be maintained at least for a little while. Although the last few strips has been all about swinging back and forth between different expectations, so I'm not ruling it out either.

pluizig

2012-01-13, 08:33 AM

So the Dark One doesn't want Xykon to succeed? Interesting.

Not long before Redcloak makes a bid for power, methinks.

Starscream

2012-01-13, 08:34 AM

Redcloak totally isn't going to tell Xykon he has the phylactery.

Wooo! Called it almost 2 years ago! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141338)

Awesome strip, btw.

Ancalagon

2012-01-13, 08:34 AM

Nice.

And Redcloak very probably just has scheduled himself to getting eaten by the MitD.

gallagher

2012-01-13, 08:34 AM

Redcloak may b e one of the smartest villains i have ever witnessed

which is going to make his monologue before he dies at the hands of Hinjo so much sweeter

luc258

2012-01-13, 08:35 AM

I got the impression that was his normal form - it wasn't a hobgoblin Polymorphed into a human, it was a human collaborator with the hobgoblins who infiltrated the resistance by pretending to be a slave.

Got a hard time believing that. After all he said in 826
"The end of me having to live like one of you stinking humans". That doesn't sound like a collaborator.

factotum

2012-01-13, 08:35 AM

I got the impression that was his normal form - it wasn't a hobgoblin Polymorphed into a human, it was a human collaborator with the hobgoblins who infiltrated the resistance by pretending to be a slave.

Then why did he make that crack about the Resistance not being the only ones to come up with the idea of a polymorphed spy in the last strip?

Anyway, seems pretty clear that Redcloak will be keeping the fact the phylactery's been found a secret--one assumes the Resistance did his job for him by killing the entire party who found it. What about Jirix, though? He appeared to be the one the message about the find was given to, is Redcloak going to have to kill him now?

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 08:39 AM

Actually, I've just thought of an alternate deception Redcloak may attempt, or perhaps alongside the don't-tell-Xykon thing:

What if he suspects that Xykon will take the Phylactery from him, and so disguises the Phylactery as his backup Holy Symbol and vice-versa? The Phylactery is abjured up the wazoo, so divining the deception may be pretty difficult. That way if Xykon takes the decoy from him, he still has the phylactery close at hand and would still be able to hold that against Xykon in the future.

toughluck

2012-01-13, 08:45 AM

Then why did he make that crack about the Resistance not being the only ones to come up with the idea of a polymorphed spy in the last strip?

Anyway, seems pretty clear that Redcloak will be keeping the fact the phylactery's been found a secret--one assumes the Resistance did his job for him by killing the entire party who found it. What about Jirix, though? He appeared to be the one the message about the find was given to, is Redcloak going to have to kill him now?
He'll say the elves got away with it and are probably going to destroy it.

luc258

2012-01-13, 08:45 AM

MReav

2012-01-13, 08:45 AM

I got the impression that was his normal form - it wasn't a hobgoblin Polymorphed into a human, it was a human collaborator with the hobgoblins who infiltrated the resistance by pretending to be a slave.

He called him "friend", something Redcloak would never say regarding a human, and said "our god", something I doubt the Dark One would allow if he were human.

I'm going to assume he's at negative HP and is simply dying, and died when the earthquake smushed him into paste, at which point, like with a disintegrate spell, the crushed remains of a goblin are indistinguishable from those of a human, or a halfling, or a dwarf.

Sunken Valley

2012-01-13, 08:48 AM

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 08:48 AM

SOD Spoiler:

Redcloak already tried to pressure Xykon with the phylactery. It backfired big time. I don't think his plan is that simple, we are all probably in for a big surprise soon.

That's true, but I think Redcloak has two goals here:

1. Buy more time for Gobbotopia.
2. Make sure Xykon does not have control over the phylactery.

The first goal is more immediate, and probably the more difficult to maintain at this point. The second goal is a more long goal and arguably more important, especially if Xykon really is planning to replace Redcloak with Tsukiko. Even if he can't threaten Xykon directly with it, it would still be leverage if Xykon tried something.

Agnostik

2012-01-13, 08:51 AM

So bearded devils are fond of Apple products, huh... :smallwink:

Gullintanni

2012-01-13, 08:52 AM

SOD Spoiler:

Redcloak already tried to pressure Xykon with the phylactery. It backfired big time. I don't think his plan is that simple, we are all probably in for a big surprise soon.

Still, it's hard, given all the tension between Xykon and Redcloak lately, to assume that RC isn't going to take every competitive advantage he can acquire. It's almost certain that RC has an agenda that runs counter to Xykon's intentions.

Consider how secretive RC has been about his intervention with the resistance. He guaranteed that the circumstances of the phylactery's recovery never gets back to Xykon by using summons and leaving no sympathetic survivors to blab. He already knows that Divination is not Xykon's forté, so he can probably feel pretty safe given his actions.

It's hard to deny that there's a hidden agenda at work. I can't wait to see where Rich goes with it.

SpaceBadger

2012-01-13, 08:59 AM

Thanks, Giant!

Edhelras

2012-01-13, 09:00 AM

What? Noooo! Thahn!

How can this be? Even having a NAME didn't help!

And the cute girl with the eye pad too......

Cool with the mountain-implosion thingy though,using the earthquake. Implosion on both the individual level and on the large scale. A fitting tomb for the resistance movement.

Psyren

2012-01-13, 09:01 AM

Awesome strip. I've got a nitpick, though -- dead polymorph targets return to their normal forms.

The rules don't specify WHEN this happens though, so the Giant has plenty of leeway here.

And Redcloak just proved why Clerics are T1. He soloed the resistance.

pendell

2012-01-13, 09:02 AM

Woot! Update! And an awesome update!

"You're the bravest man I've ever met ..."

"... and you're the slowest woman! Go!"

Love it! And I'm hoping someday the romantic intrigue between those two in their brief time together can be explored.

Still, only one sole survivor reminds me of the story of Moby the white whale ... ".. and I have escaped alone to tell thee."

Last but not least, it means that we have finally something else to talk about besides the stupid elf commander who didn't even have a name.

Speaking of which .. Redcloak is using an unidentified spell to kill the one-eyed woman. Does that mean he's out of implosion? Does that help us identify his likely level?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Succubus

2012-01-13, 09:02 AM

One thing confuses me - the group of rebels in 826 only had one female character with the U shaped symbol on her head and she was dispatched in panel 8.

Or was that one of the corpses from Redcloak's killing spree prior to the rebel group's arrival? :smallconfused:

EDIT: SoD Theory

I don't have my copy immediately to hand but didn't Xykon hypnotise MiTD into spitting out the amulet Redcloak is *wearing*, rather than the amulets he is carrying?

luc258

2012-01-13, 09:03 AM

That's true, but I think Redcloak has two goals here:

1. Buy more time for Gobbotopia.
2. Make sure Xykon does not have control over the phylactery.

The first goal is more immediate, and probably the more difficult to maintain at this point. The second goal is a more long goal and arguably more important, especially if Xykon really is planning to replace Redcloak with Tsukiko. Even if he can't threaten Xykon directly with it, it would still be leverage if Xykon tried something.
I was thinking about something similar: that he was preparing for a conflict with Xykon which would happen once Xykon figures out that he won't control the snarl after the ritual. But it does not make that much sense, since it won't make Xykon any easier to beat. If Red Cloak would win in a potential fight with Xykon he would have his phylactery anyways and could destroy it while Xykon regenerates.

I like your 2nd point though, afterall Red Cloak lost Xykon's phylactery. There is a good chance he might take it away from Red Cloak once it is recovered and hide it somewhere where Red Cloak would have no access to it.
So even if there was a conflict between them and Red Cloak would win he could not finish off Xykon. Maybe he is planning to keep it for himself or destroy it straight away while he can pin it on the elves in order to avoid this.

KoboldRevenge

2012-01-13, 09:03 AM

About the polymorphed guy. He's morphed into someone who looked exactly like the bad guy?:smallconfused:

Also I wonder if there is an alignment scale for elementals based on this new ones eye color and shape changed.

Nenec

2012-01-13, 09:03 AM

Ohoh! It's so good to see the real villains again, now I'm only missing Xycon and the cockroaches. Linear guild and Tarquin are just...a watered drink compared to those. Last pages were really epic.
And this one...it makes you wanna cry for the defeat, for Than, all this resumed in Niu's face. But when you see the line about paladins=endagered species, iPad as extra pay you can't do anything but laugh!

SpaceBadger

2012-01-13, 09:06 AM

I got the impression that was his normal form - it wasn't a hobgoblin Polymorphed into a human, it was a human collaborator with the hobgoblins who infiltrated the resistance by pretending to be a slave.

Seriously? I suggest you take another look at strip 826 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html), especially panels 9, 10 and 11.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 09:07 AM

I was thinking about something similar: that he was preparing for a conflict with Xykon which would happen once Xykon figures out that he won't control the snarl after the ritual. But it does not make that much sense, since it won't make Xykon any easier to beat. If Red Cloak would win in a potential fight with Xykon he would have his phylactery anyways and could destroy it while Xykon regenerates.

I like your 2nd point though, afterall Red Cloak lost Xykon's phylactery. There is a good chance he might take it away from Red Cloak once it is recovered and hide it somewhere where Red Cloak would have no access to it.
So even if there was a conflict between them and Red Cloak would win he could not finish off Xykon. Maybe he is planning to keep it for himself or destroy it straight away while he can pin it on the elves in order to avoid this.

Destroying the phylactery - correction, telling Xykon the phylactery is destroyed - is pretty dangerous. Losing the phylactery cost him an eye, what do you think permanently losing it would cost him? At the absolute minimum I would wager that Xykon would go ahead with the Tsukiko plan.

BobVosh

2012-01-13, 09:07 AM

RC has gotten a lot more hardcore with his eye.

Moonshadow

2012-01-13, 09:09 AM

Gullintanni

2012-01-13, 09:10 AM

Speaking of which .. Redcloak is using an unidentified spell to kill the one-eyed woman. Does that mean he's out of implosion? Does that help us identify his likely level?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Redcloak, IMHO, is pretty unambiguously level 17. He couples casting of Implosion with a quip about new spell levels. The only time you can really call a spell level "new" is when you first achieve the ability to cast said spells. The first ability to achieve level 9th cleric spells is at level 17. Notwithstanding Ur-Priests and the like of course.

Person_Man

2012-01-13, 09:11 AM

Hardcore

2012-01-13, 09:14 AM

Nice with that escape scene in the last panel; a classic thing u know.

The Pilgrim

2012-01-13, 09:16 AM

A salute for Thanh. A brave man killed while honoring his duty. http://www.atfreeforum.com/agp/images/smiles/icon_salut.gif

Well, half the people whose names I know are safe. It's something.

On the other hand:
- Devils: Will kill people for an iPad. In hard economic times like those we are living, I suppose it makes sense that the price of labor force has hit rock-bottom.

- Why Redcloak needs the whole affair to remain secret? what's he planning to do with the Philactery? Hand Xykon a fake while keeping the real one somewhere safe? Destroy it, then tell Xykon the Resistance destroyed it, then make him one new Philactery, then hand over a fake to Xykon and keep the real, new philactery?

luc258

2012-01-13, 09:17 AM

Destroying the phylactery - correction, telling Xykon the phylactery is destroyed - is pretty dangerous. Losing the phylactery cost him an eye, what do you think permanently losing it would cost him? At the absolute minimum I would wager that Xykon would go ahead with the Tsukiko plan.

Taking this into consideration his next step could be to get rid off Tsukiko. It would go with his evil character as well. In a few days the plot arc will probably go to a completely different direction anyways, but I'm really curious what Red Cloaks plan will turn out to be.

DarkEricDraven

2012-01-13, 09:18 AM

Man, Redcloak is awesome!...Evil, but awesome!
Implosion.

rbetieh

2012-01-13, 09:23 AM

Wow, been gone for a couple of weeks and look what happens. Somehow, I thought Tahn would have been captured for old times sake, especially since he actually has information on Hinjo and the remaining Azure City Paladins. Or at least thats what I thought last strip. Redcloak is certainly becoming less emotional as time goes on, it's almost as if the cause he serves is starting to take over him. Maybe its the absence of the anarchic Xykon?

PBlades

2012-01-13, 09:26 AM

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 09:27 AM

Even if Redcloak does pull the old switcharoo on the phylactery, is Xykon able to, well, for lack of a better word, sense that part of him is still in it?

Or do all the spells on it prevent that?

Or does it work like a Horcrux in that it's completely seperate from him now and he can't sense a thing?

That hasn't been spelled out either way, but I suspect its abjurations means Xykon won't know it's gone until either he sees it destroyed or attempts to regenerate and discovers something is off. Mainly because unlike a horcrux, a part of him is not in it. He resides in it only while regenerating, and it is otherwise a fancy trinket. If he could sense it like that, he may not have needed half of Gobbotopia looking for it and could have retrieved it himself.

It just occurred to me that if Xykon succeeds and gains the power of the remaining Gates, that he can probably re-write reality however he wishes, thus replacing Redcloak's god (and all gods in general). It makes me wonder why Redcloak has ever followed Xykon at all.

If it was out of fear, then why not destroy the phylactery years ago when Roy destroyed Xykon's first skeletal body? If it was because he wanted to eventually concur Azure City and set up goblintopia and stay there, then why question O-Chul so vigorously about the locations of the other gates?

It'll be quite interesting to see what happens next.

Xykon is still planning to use the ritual as Redcloak told him, because (Start of Darkness)

He believes the ritual will let him directly control the Snarl, and use it as a Death Star type weapon. Redcloak lied to him: The ritual controls the gate rather than the Snarl, and gives that control directly to the Dark One rather than either of them. It will be interesting if Tsukiko's reverse engineering uncovers this...

Castamir

2012-01-13, 09:29 AM

I'm going to assume he's at negative HP and is simply dying, and died when the earthquake smushed him into paste, at which point, like with a disintegrate spell, the crushed remains of a goblin are indistinguishable from those of a human, or a halfling, or a dwarf.
It's well established that negative HP and mere severe wounds are represented by eyes having a long line; and Xes for eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) are a sure mark of death. This is also what you use to disguise as a corpse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html).

In other words, he's dead, Jim, as a doornail.

HUMVEE Driver

2012-01-13, 09:30 AM

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 09:33 AM

Taking this into consideration his next step could be to get rid off Tsukiko. It would go with his evil character as well. In a few days the plot arc will probably go to a completely different direction anyways, but I'm really curious what Red Cloaks plan will turn out to be.

That would be risky. For one thing Tsukiko is probably able to defend herself pretty well and at the very least may be able to escape from him. Another is how he would explain Tsukiko's death to Xykon? I'm sure Xykon won't care beyond losing access to what has been a useful resource, but if it turns out Redcloak is what cost him that resource, he won't be pleased.

In any case, it will be interesting to see what happens the next time all of Team Evil is together...

Silverblaze

2012-01-13, 09:34 AM

Most of the points have already been made, but I still need to tip my proverbial hat at RC for his "endangered species" remark - Excellent evilness :-D

Beyond that - Mr. T - You were just as bad as your namesake - in the best possible good way - You knew how to pull off a grand exit - RIP to a noble soul :smallfrown:

Raistlin82

2012-01-13, 09:34 AM

"Contact Lord Hinjo and tell him..." what?

Too bad the pink-haired elf died. I was hoping at least 1 member of the Resistance and 1 member of Team Peregrine would survive.

Anyway... R.I.P. Resistance, R.I.P. Team Peregrine. You fought bravely.

PS: oh and the final panel is EPIC.

There's a few discrepencies that are very un-giant-like...
No, there aren't.

1. Isn't Niu dead? Isn't this her: http://www.madmaxmodels.com/images/niu.jpg

No. It's not. Not only she looks different, she's also one of the generic Resistance soldiers that were already dead in strip #825.

2. Shouldn't the dead 'hobgoblin' revert back to his true form after he died?

Assuming that it actually is required...
Maybe he will shortly... after the mountain collapses on him.
Doesn't really matter. He was a goblin (most likely a hobgoblin) and he was a polymorphed infiltrator. By his own (and Redcloak's) admission.
This community fixation with meaningless details never ceases to amuse me.

3. Doesn't Redcloak have to say the spell name when he kills eypatch girl?

Anyone?

There are several spells that don't require a verbal component, and there are feats that allow you to avoid using it for all others.

JSSheridan

2012-01-13, 09:34 AM

Thanks Giant!

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 09:36 AM

The reason Redcloak didn't have to say Implosion twice is because Implosion lasts for up to four rounds. Redcloak squelched at least two resistance members with a single spell across two rounds.

pendell

2012-01-13, 09:38 AM

Maybe he will shortly... after the mountain collapses on him.
This community fixation with meaningless details never ceases to amuse me.

The Giant puts a lot of effort into getting the little details right so I think it's only proper that those of us in the audience who are so inclined should seek out those details and give them proper appreciation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

AniThyng

2012-01-13, 09:40 AM

There's a few discrepencies that are very un-giant-like...

1. Isn't Niu dead? Isn't this her: http://www.madmaxmodels.com/images/niu.jpg

2. Shouldn't the dead 'hobgoblin' revert back to his true form after he died?

3. Doesn't Redcloak have to say the spell name when he kills eypatch girl?

Anyone?

Niu's hair is a lot longer than the generic female Azurite soldier in your screenshot.

But perhaps that is actually Kazumi Kato :smalltongue:

luc258

2012-01-13, 09:41 AM

That would be risky. For one thing Tsukiko is probably able to defend herself pretty well and at the very least may be able to escape from him. Another is how he would explain Tsukiko's death to Xykon? I'm sure Xykon won't care beyond losing access to what has been a useful resource, but if it turns out Redcloak is what cost him that resource, he won't be pleased.

In any case, it will be interesting to see what happens the next time all of Team Evil is together...

Well, Xykon is out of town. There won't be a better time to move against Tsukiko than now. I don't have a doubt that Red Cloak could utterly crush her even on his own. She's probably around OOTS level, he is a few levels higher. In addition he would have the surprise and the ressources of the goblin empire on his side.

He got enough motive too:
Her research makes him replacable
Her research endangers his very life because if Xykon ever learns what the ritual really does he will attack him

The question would be if he can stage something convincing enough to fool Xykon when he returns.

cheesymetal

2012-01-13, 09:43 AM

im glad to see redcloak stepping up as a great leader. on the other hand, i feel sorry for the azure nation. no hope.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 09:45 AM

Well, Xykon is out of town. There won't be a better time to move against Tsukiko than now. I don't have a doubt that Red Cloak could utterly crush her even on his own. She's probably around OOTS level, he is a few levels higher. In addition he would have the surprise and the ressources of the goblin empire on his side.

He got enough motive too:
Her research makes him replacable
Her research endangers his very life because if Xykon ever learns what the ritual really does he will attack him

The question would be if he can stage something convincing enough to fool Xykon when he returns.

And also, whether he knows Tsukiko has been doing this. We haven't seen her working on this in front of him or within earshot.

Conuly

2012-01-13, 09:46 AM

Omergideon

2012-01-13, 09:51 AM

Well now, once more we have an interesting development in the plot and a lot of action in this strip. Despite the death of the Resistance this strip is really the story of Redcloak and his new machinations and plans. There is certainly a fair amount to comment on regarding this, so here we go.

The Good:
1) I want to get this out the way as it is a big rave. Redcloak has made, in 3 strips, massive strides in character development and character. He is far more focused and brutal, and this side of his character is welcome to see. He has been mean and petty before but this level of focus and deception (including killing a loyal minion) is new. The level of power that he has displayed as well has been incredible. We knew he was tough, but the way he has wrecked everything almost solo is phenomenal. I cannot priase this new arc enough.

I do not know when Redcloak became a more important antagonist to me (storywise, not power level wise) than Xykon but he seems to have done so. The plot here (seemingly decieving Xykon about the resistance and his phylactory) is deep, complex and hints at so many possiblities that I am on the dge of my seat waiting. The character development AND story of Reddy here is the biggest positive about the comic.
2) Thanth/Niu as well are an excellent double act. Thanth was always a small character, as was niu. But to get such a moving death scene is cool to see. I do sometimes wonder if the obvious heroism some of our Paladin friends (Thanth, O'Chul) show is to balance out the hate the Sapphire guard gets in these forums. True or not this is a good way to die and shows in a few moments a lot about this brave and sensible paladin. In addition Niu escaping gives us a lot of places to go. As many can say, the plot thickens. Perhaps soon we'll need a flow chart.
3) The art is always good and the sight of the mountain falling, Niu's expressions in the last panel, and so on are very good. Not so much pretty, but wonderfully expressive imagery shown here. Very nice indeed.
4) Not too many jokes in this one of course (it is an action/plot strip) but the one about Ipads was to me very funny. It could be in part due to the scarcity of jokes recently but it was very funny.

The Bad:
1) There is only one thing I can say about this strip in the negative. For all the good images and expressions the action is a little staid an simple in this one. Not that it is bad, but it is not up to the normal high standard we sometimes see. This means that whilst the plot development and character moments are awesome the strip itself is not quite as fun to read on it's own. A minor fault in the big scheme, but for the one strip it is noticable.

So in short this is a good strip. It has a strong end, massive plot developments and even more. Not one of the true greats but the plot development and character moments were extremely powerful. The only down side is that it is not "fun" to read on it's own. As a strip alone it earns *** 1/2. But in sequence, the minor plot alone (prevous 5 strips) earn a **** for the plot line. Essential and fast paced, with humour a plenty in the first strips.

HUMVEE Driver

2012-01-13, 09:51 AM

Niu's hair is a lot longer than the generic female Azurite soldier in your screenshot.

You're right. I noticed that, but I thought it could be because she was laying back.

Redcloak wasn't using Implosion in panel #7; Implosion doesn't cover the target in a brown aura, like we see in 826.

The Giant puts a lot of effort into getting the little details right so I think it's only proper that those of us in the audience who are so inclined should seek out those details and give them proper appreciation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Damn right.

Here's some truth about storytelling: details are ALWAYS important.

Arrowstorm122

2012-01-13, 09:53 AM

Whats up with people marking pure speculation as spoiler?

I'm also veeery excited for what Redcloaks plan is.

Burner28

2012-01-13, 09:55 AM

Nuh-uh. His eyes gone all X-es;he's dead,Jim.

Great strip! Loving the rapid updates.

Yep, he's gone. Just like that.

luc258

2012-01-13, 09:55 AM

And also, whether he knows Tsukiko has been doing this. We haven't seen her working on this in front of him or within earshot.

I would call it a fair assumption that Red Cloak uses his goblins to spy on his "allies" without it being explicitly shown in a comic strip. Tsukiko has not been keeping her research a secret either, even MITD knows about it after all.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 09:56 AM

Whats up with people marking pure speculation as spoiler?

It's a courtesy to the Giant. He doesn't like reading our speculation, because if one of us predicts correctly, or perhaps the opposit, he may feel tempted to change something. We try to avoid that.

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 09:58 AM

I would call it a fair assumption that Red Cloak uses his goblins to spy on his "allies" without it being explicitly shown in a comic strip. Tsukiko has not been keeping her research a secret either, even MITD knows about it after all.

I personally agree with you. If Redcloak is willing to deceive Xykon he'd be just as willing to spy on Tsukiko. However until we see him state this, we can't rule out that she has done all this under his nose. It's why I'm looking forward to the Team Evil reunion to see where everyone stands with each other.

Anarion

2012-01-13, 09:59 AM

Miko notwithstanding, every named member of the Sapphire Guard has shown themselves to be of the highest moral character.
SoD spoilers
I can't believe these are the same people that went and butchered helpless goblin villages filled with women and children. I simply can't. What happened to their organization between the time of Soon and the present order of self-sacrificing paladins?

Ah Redcloak, acting on your own and taking risks you think aren't stupid.
I think Redcloak is going to destroy the phylactery. Right now. My prediction will probably be proved wrong with the next strip, but I think it's the only thing that makes sense given his actions. If he destroys it, that's significant and it weakens Xykon considerably. If he wanted to hide it, he could have just buried it deep underground before he cast that earthquake spell.

Dmatix

2012-01-13, 10:03 AM

Poor Mustachedin, you died well.

sims796

2012-01-13, 10:04 AM

This wasn't all that bad. It softened the blow of the last comic, I'll tell you that much.

Garwain

2012-01-13, 10:06 AM

I hope that the XP-link between hero and villain works also in favor of the hero, meaning that next time OOTS has gained a lvl as well.

t209

2012-01-13, 10:08 AM

I hope Niuh
Go to blue river and hire 500 nomadic warriors to avenge Thanh like Ysgrammor and Companions.
P.S- I thought they would break through the lines and fall back to other place.

AniThyng

2012-01-13, 10:10 AM

Miko notwithstanding, every named member of the Sapphire Guard has shown themselves to be of the highest moral character.
SoD spoilers
I can't believe these are the same people that went and butchered helpless goblin villages filled with women and children. I simply can't. What happened to their organization between the time of Soon and the present order of self-sacrificing paladins?

I'd wager one factor is that the later generation of Paladins have the luxury of living in a time when Azure city has already secured her borders and completed the Goblin Crusades, and thus never faced that particular moral quandary. It's also worth noting that even then only *some* fell, not all. And certainly Kim himself did not fall.

warmachine

2012-01-13, 10:16 AM

We know Redcloak's first holy symbol is Xykon's phylactory but if he thinks Xykon will demand it handed over, Redcloak can keep the real one in a safe place, meet Xykon wearing a fake and hand that over. There is no need to hide that the Resistance is destroyed and the phylactory recovered.

If Redcloak wishes to delay the departure from Gobbotopia, Xykon may lose patience and start blasting things.

The hobgoblins are going to notice the Resistance is destroyed when no raids happen and they're not going to miss the collapsing mountain.

Does Redcloak really wish to risk an impatient Xykon asking why the hobgoblin army, with no distracting Resistance, haven't found the phylactory yet? There's another reason.

Jay R

2012-01-13, 10:18 AM

Nuh-uh. His eyes gone all X-es;he's dead,Jim.

Of course he's dead. He doesn't have a name.

On other matters, what is Redcloak's plan with the phylactery? I thionk a crucial fact is that he needs Xykon for the ritual, but after that, Xykon is just a danger to the goblins in general and Redcloak in particular.

I have the vague idea that Redcloak wants to break the phylactery after the ritual is cast, ideally while the Order of the Stick is taking down Xykon again. (Again? Yup - he's already been regenerated by his phylactery after the Order destroyed him, back in strips 114-115 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html)) This requires him to hide the fact that he now has it.

It will be interesting to see what his story is, since he won't be able to hide the fact that the resistance is no longer raiding them. Also, he has one more loose end to tie up - the resistance spy back in the city itself.

t209

2012-01-13, 10:22 AM

How many have noticed that the arcs of this comic have cycle of good and bad endings?The first arc started as good ending as Xykon army was crushed. Now the resistance was crushed but since team evil will leave there's a hope for homeland

Surrealistik

2012-01-13, 10:23 AM

I'm glad Devil Durkon got that ipad he wanted so much.

Gorgon_Heap

2012-01-13, 10:25 AM

You'd think by now I'd be used to a rediculous stick-figure comic making me emotional.

This is sad. The poor, poor resistance, and Niu all alone in a hostile land.

Lamentation, lamentation!

Raistlin82

2012-01-13, 10:25 AM

Here's some truth about storytelling: details are ALWAYS important.

No, it's not a truth.
If they were ALWAYS important, they wouldn't be details.
Sometimes a meaningless detail is just a meaningless detail.

And the Giant has already told all of you that NOT EVERYTHING has to be shown, not everything has to be told with clear letters. Things that obviously are not important, are not important.
Focus on the important ones (Thahn's sacrifice, Redcloak's determination and secrets, Niu's escape) and let go of the Epyleptic Trees.

Roland Itiative

2012-01-13, 10:28 AM

RMS Oceanic

2012-01-13, 10:32 AM

t209

2012-01-13, 10:35 AM

No, it's not a truth.
If they were ALWAYS important, they wouldn't be details.
Sometimes a meaningless detail is just a meaningless detail.

And the Giant has already told all of you that NOT EVERYTHING has to be shown, not everything has to be told with clear letters. Things that obviously are not important, are not important.
Focus on the important ones (Thahn's sacrifice, Redcloak's determination and secrets, Niu's escape) and let go of the Epyleptic Trees.

At least we can listen to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo) after being revealed that the resistance is wiped out.
P.S- I thought the survivors would sing this song before they died.

Kish

2012-01-13, 10:35 AM

I hope that the XP-link between hero and villain works also in favor of the hero, meaning that next time OOTS has gained a lvl as well.
It's not between hero and villain. It's between "personal rivals." Roy is not the same level as Xykon (far from it), and Redcloak isn't the personal rival of any of the OotS.

Khaethrag

2012-01-13, 10:37 AM

Bleak Ink

2012-01-13, 10:42 AM

I am breathtakingly impressed with the degree of Took a Level in Badass and level-headed tactics displayed in this update.

t209

2012-01-13, 10:44 AM

OK, let's see: Thanh is dead, the resistance is crushed, and RC has the phylactery. Yep, that's a good strip for Friday the 13th.

Can't wait for the OOTS to kick some tail so I can see the good guys get some wins.

I hope the corpses in the hideout are holding off the demons while the others are escaping. Do you notice that the comic have good ending and bad ending cycle?

madtinker

2012-01-13, 10:48 AM

Maybe someone has said this already, but if Redcloak is planning on keeping the phylactery I think it could work. Like Xykon said, be immune to the damage of your area effect spells: Redcloak isn't stupid enough to pull a stunt he isn't prepared to finish. If he does keep the phylactery, it's because he knows where to hide it or how to use it to control Xykon.

random_guy

2012-01-13, 10:48 AM

I'm glad Niu survived. She's a really good character. And Redcloak... well, he really seems to be growing a backbone, doesn't he? I wonder why, exactly, the details of the current events must remain a secret... Is it about RC summoning quite a lot of fiends, perhaps showing an alliance between the IFCC and the Dark One? I mean, even if RC intends to hide the phylactery from Xykon, that would hardly be a secret "between my god and I"...

I also think the secret is all of the fiends that he summoned.
The Dark One may have formed some kind of alliance with the IFCC and he wants it to be kept secret from the good gods. Redcloak is doing his part to keep the alliance secret.
I somehow doubt that he would withhold the phylactery from Xykon. His comments to Right Eye when he looked in the mirror indicated that he is committed to his alliance with Xykon. Also, Xykon constantly loses his keys, where would he hide the phylactery from Redcloak without losing track of it? The safest choices are letting Redcloak keep it, or handing it over to Tsukiko. Neither of those choices make a difference if the alliance breaks up. Redcloak is higher level than Tsukiko, so he can kill her and destroy the phylactery if Xykon ever falls. If Xykon kills Redcloak, it does not matter if he has the phylactery or not. He can never be a threat to Xykon.
Also, I don't think Tsukiko will discover the purpose of the ritual, at least not anytime soon. According to the oracle, Xykon will go to Girard's gate. If he knows the ritual is meaningless and grants control to the Dark One, there is no reason for him to go to the next gate.

Reprimand

2012-01-13, 10:48 AM

Niu is awesome and poor Thahn. Stupid elf leader attacked when they should have run. You don't attack a high level tier 1 head on, EVER.

-Sentinel-

2012-01-13, 11:04 AM

Noooo, Eyepatch Chick! :smallfrown:

Oh, and Thanh, I guess.

That's our Redcloak: clever, ruthless, and dangerously genre savvy. I'm not really rooting for him, but I do hope he manages to improve the goblins' plight by the end of the strip. He deserves to accomplish something.

legomaster00156

2012-01-13, 11:04 AM

Thahn was awesome. Here's to hoping that someday, after Xykon is defeated, they come back to the mountain to find his corpse and raise him.

t209

2012-01-13, 11:07 AM

The resistance have died but
Their martyrdom will bring cry for war on gobbotopia by other nations and resistance movement will spread in Blue River and Red Mountain hills!

Ellen

2012-01-13, 11:07 AM

The simple, direct thing to do would be destroy the phylactery. Then, wait for a chance to get Xykon destroyed. Still risky hoping for a chance at that second part, but a simple, direct plan - which means it's probably the last thing RC is planning.

I don't know what more complicated plan he could have. I'm guessing putting the phylactery in some kind of magical containment so that Xykon would be trapped and under RC's control if he has to use it. The would allow The Plan to continue.

Of course, I'm probably wrong about that.

Two things about polymorphed spies -

1) Is the polymorphed Resistance spy still hidden as a Goblin/Hobgoblin?

Actually -

1.a) Does RC know there's a polymorphed spy? When it was mentioned earlier, it's unclear who would have already known and who wouldn't have. The Goblinoid spy might not have had a chance to pass on that info if he just found out. Besides that, RC may not have any idea WHO the human spy is. Xykon would cheefully kill as many Goblins as necessary to see which one turned human when he died, but RC might decide not to bother ferreting out one spy with no one left to spy for.

and -

2) There's still RC's niece from SoD. The polymorph angle may have also been a reminder for how she could have been hidden. For a little while, I was wondering if she might turn out to be in the Resistance, Of course, our brains could still be hurt by the discovery she's Niu, but I don't think the Giant means to hurt us THAT badly.

Oh, right. Look who I'm talking about.

Well, I still figure any guess I make is likely to be wrong because I so often don't see his curve balls coming.

Tundar

2012-01-13, 11:08 AM

So bearded devils are fond of Apple products, huh... :smallwink:
Bwa hahahaha. Good one :smallbiggrin:

Redcloak sure does have something up his sleeve. I hope it will be somewhat of a nasty surprice for Xykon.

Skios

2012-01-13, 11:25 AM

Wooo! Called it almost 2 years ago! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141338)You predicted that the evil overlord's second in command would attempt to betray him? Pretty appropriate, given your username :smallamused:.

Beowulf DW

2012-01-13, 11:37 AM

Wow. These last few strips have been impressive, polarizing, and somewhat depressing. My respect for the Giant may soon rival the respect I have for Tolkein.

One Skunk Todd

2012-01-13, 11:44 AM

He'll say the elves got away with it and are probably going to destroy it.

Or that it's buried under a mountain of rubble, literally. :)

WickedWizard17

2012-01-13, 11:46 AM

Oh my gods :smalleek: RUN, NIU, RUN! Thanh, you died a hero. Who was that polymorphed guy, anyone special? Or was Redcloak just frustrated over more goblin deaths?

Man, I missed Team Evil! :smallbiggrin:

Griever3216

2012-01-13, 12:01 PM

So you could say that loosing an eye opened his eyes... eye... the one he has left. :smallwink:

I officially love you. :smallbiggrin:

Mastikator

2012-01-13, 12:05 PM

No strip may go without insane speculations, here is my contribution:

The traitor wasn't a hobgoblin, he was a human, that's why he didn't transform back upon death and Redcloak was going to execute him if he'd live.
Redcloak planted the spy to tell the Resistance to plant a spy, that way when the hobgoblins found the Phylactery the Resistance can (with Redcloaks help) apprehend the Phylactery without anyone knowing AND without ever casting suspicion on Redcloak should it later be discovered that it was found.
He used summons instead of hobgoblins to make sure that nobody knew (that's why he was going to kill the human traitor, a plan he seemed to view as a necessary evil).
This way, he can kill the Resistance and get the Phylactery AND keep Xykon in the dark.
I suspect that he transpires to destroy the phylactery if Xykon should ever die, and replace Xykon with an arcane caster he can control, the gate-thing, after all, is Redcloaks quest, not Xykons. ;)

Nohar

2012-01-13, 12:06 PM

Hmmm... What could do Redcloak with the phylactery ?
Xykon doesn't know (yet) that they found it, but there is still the small possibility that one hobgoblin, who knows that the phylactery was discovered, stayed in the sewer and may inform Xykon.

So, here are my hypothesis :
- Redcloak gives back the phylactery to Xykon... Very unlikely.
- Redcloak try to blackmail Xykon with the phylactery... Won't work, it's Xykon, and Redcloak may be croaked in the process.
- Redcloack destroys the phylactery. The item is well protected, but Redcloak probably knows some ways to bypass/remove these protections. Once he destroys it, Redcloak polymorph his own back-up symbol in order to give it the shape of the phylactery, and tells Xykon that they found it. This way, Xykon doesn't know that his phylactery is destroyed, and Redcloak can turn against him whenever he wants to. Most plausible hypothesis to me. Note that if Xykon has any way to know that his phylactery is destroyed without actually seeing it, my hypothesis is no longer viable.
EDIT: Crap, RMS Oceanic kinda beat me... Well, great minds think alike.
- Same hypothesis as above, except that instead of destroying it, he hides it.
- Redcloack toss it into the rift... Too random to my taste.

brionl

2012-01-13, 12:10 PM

Gee, one would think a fiend would prefer a Zune.

/rimshot

If Redcloak is thinking about making a move against Xykon, hiding the phylactery would be a "foolish risk". He'll either hand it over, or destroy it right away.

Since the dedication of Gobbotopia ceremony Redcloak has been ready to move on as well, so he's going to have to make up some kind of story to get on the road again.

Almaseti

2012-01-13, 12:10 PM

Oh Thahn. You were awesome. It's characters like these that keep making me want to play paladins. At least we know he's going somewhere awesome. Unlike that human traitor jerk.

Poor Niu. That whole situation's gotta suck for her.

CelestialMagpie

2012-01-13, 12:11 PM

AH No, NOooooOOOooo! Thanh :smallfrown:

What on Earth is Niu going to do? After contacting Hinjo, I hope she incites some action from neighboring countries.

RC is much more focused now, I'll agree. He's sacrificed emotion for expedient action - and it's terrifying.

M84

2012-01-13, 12:12 PM

SoD Spoilers:

For Redcloak's sake, I hope he doesn't try to destroy the phylactery. Otherwise, Xykon's little contingency measure will get him OM NOM NOMed by MITD.

PhantomFox

2012-01-13, 12:13 PM

Redcloak is playing with fire here. He already has all his chips in with Xykon, so he can't really betray him, but can he steer him in the way he wants? It feels like he has the tiger by the tail, and dare not let go.

Da'Shain

2012-01-13, 12:15 PM

Ah Redcloak, acting on your own and taking risks you think aren't stupid.
I think Redcloak is going to destroy the phylactery. Right now. My prediction will probably be proved wrong with the next strip, but I think it's the only thing that makes sense given his actions. If he destroys it, that's significant and it weakens Xykon considerably. If he wanted to hide it, he could have just buried it deep underground before he cast that earthquake spell.That was actually the first thing I thought of, as well. Assuming that Redcloak even CAN, destroy the phylactery right now ... but even if he can't, beginning the task now gives him time to unravel the enchantments on it, so that he doesn't fail just like O'Chul did if he tries to smash it in a single moment of betrayal.

Really, though, that would seem like the best option for him, if he actually wants to betray Xykon but doesn't want there to be any reprisals against him or the goblin nation. Since Xykon's soul isn't inside it and he's never shown the ability to sense it in any way, destroying it now probably wouldn't alert him (he might have some alarm cast on it that'll alert him, but Redcloak can remove that along with the other spells on it), and this way the plan can go forward without a hitch ... but if, say, the Order manages to get another lucky shot in on Xykon, Redcloak can finally justify moving on to himself.

It's just the kind of sneaky backstabbery that Redcloak would be most willing to do, IMO. I expect to see a "phylactery" handed back to Xykon, maybe one that even looks, to all outward appearances, like the real one, but I won't believe it's the real one 'til it's confirmed somehow.

Thomar_of_Uointer

2012-01-13, 12:17 PM

Awesome strip. I've got a nitpick, though -- dead polymorph targets return to their normal forms.

It's very likely that the spy was under a polymorph any object spell. "Hobgoblin to Human" would be permanent under that spell, and leave a permanently human corpse (with a lingering transmutation aura.)

DementedFellow

2012-01-13, 12:23 PM

Pantler

2012-01-13, 12:30 PM

Traitors never. Ever. Get paid.
Great storytelling.

luc258

2012-01-13, 12:32 PM

Technically he is not a traitor, he is a spy. Even if the paladin called him a traitor.

Kish

2012-01-13, 12:37 PM

So why didn't the paladin use Detect Evil on the traitor? That seems short-sighted on his part.

I just get bothered by this common motif of a group of supposedly wise and righteous people getting infiltrated by some evil agent. And then everyone is surprised when the Big Reveal happens.

Have these people never heard of Zone of Truth, Discern Lies or Detect Evil?
Your final line makes it very hard to resist asking if you've never heard of Undetectable Alignment. Just so you know.

Anyway. Yeah. Second-level cleric spell, before we get into "are you saying you would expect none of the actual human prisoners to ping as evil?"

Lord Ruby34

2012-01-13, 12:45 PM

pendell

2012-01-13, 12:49 PM

Traitors never. Ever. Get paid.
Great storytelling.

luc258 has it right. The spy was no traitor. Thanh called him that because he was unaware that the spy was a polymorphed goblinoid instead of a willing human collaborator.

Of all the characters who died in this comic, the spy is the one I feel the most sympathy for. He volunteered for a dangerous mission, was polymorphed into something he hated, did his job and remained loyal to his own side rather than defecting, and his reward was to be used and killed by his own chain of command.

I knew when Redcloak ordered him to assist in killing the humans that Redcloak was hoping the spy would be killed by them. No witnesses and no loose ends.

The sole bright spot for him is that death doesn't mean to them what it does to us (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html). It may be that the dead spy will have officer's rank in the Dark One's army on the Iron Plain. He's certainly earned it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

rbetieh

2012-01-13, 12:51 PM

We know Redcloak's first holy symbol is Xykon's phylactory but if he thinks Xykon will demand it handed over, Redcloak can keep the real one in a safe place, meet Xykon wearing a fake and hand that over. There is no need to hide that the Resistance is destroyed and the phylactory recovered.

I have been seeing a lot of phylactery switcharoo theories pop-up, and I was wondering how this could even be possible. I mean, the actual holy symbol is warded so much that it is virtually undetectable. It wouldnt take Xykon more than 2 rounds to realize the thing he was handed is missing a few spells and we can't be sure that Redcloak even knows what all the wards are, right?

One Skunk Todd

2012-01-13, 12:53 PM

I wonder if Xykon might have his own spies among the hobbos to keep tabs on RC and Jirix. And man is it tough to be a mountain in OOTSverse.

A_Moon

2012-01-13, 12:58 PM

That was an awesome performance by all characters involved :smallsmile: .

Vectner

2012-01-13, 12:59 PM

That was EPIC, or at least very high level.

R. Shackleford

2012-01-13, 01:01 PM

I don't know how polymorphing works, since it's never come up in any of my games. I recall in a Drizzt book that death ends the effect though...

I think the Paladins being so easily infiltrateable makes perfect sense. The few savvy members included Shojo and Miko who're dead, and Hinjo who'd largely come to genre awareness through the aforementioned two's actions and by hanging with Elan for a book.

Honor Before Reason is a stupid thing to adhere to, but it seems in character that even the Sapphire resistance clung to that idea. The elves should have considered it though.

RIP Thahn. Your death makes a subplot one thread barer.

LuPuWei

2012-01-13, 01:08 PM

R.I.P. Thahn.

The memory of you and your awesome 'stache shall live on forever in us.

:elan: - "Oh Thahny boy, you fin'lly found your ca-a-lling; Defend, defend! What used to be your land!
And though you find, your friends around you fa-a-lling; Whip out your sword, and prepare to make your stand."

Fitzclowningham

2012-01-13, 01:13 PM

I have been seeing a lot of phylactery switcharoo theories pop-up, and I was wondering how this could even be possible. I mean, the actual holy symbol is warded so much that it is virtually undetectable. It wouldnt take Xykon more than 2 rounds to realize the thing he was handed is missing a few spells and we can't be sure that Redcloak even knows what all the wards are, right?

I would think that the non-detection spells on it would make it impossible for Xykon to know whether there were *any* enchantments on it, otherwise, it would be findable via Detect Magic.

Starscream

2012-01-13, 01:22 PM

You predicted that the evil overlord's second in command would attempt to betray him? Pretty appropriate, given your username :smallamused:.

We Starscreams are experts in that particular field. It makes job interviews interesting.

Doug Lampert

2012-01-13, 01:42 PM

"Stupid risks are stupid."

Is this character development? For Redcloak? Could he possibly, ever use this little insight to reconsider that whole idiotic plan? I want a happy ending for him (yeah, I'm soft that way), but only if he realizes how stupid the plan is. I mean, really, there has GOT to be a better, safer way of insuring goblin equality.

AFAICT the horrible threats that face goblin villiages NOT harboring the Red Cloak or planning massive crusades against the humans include things like the circus coming to town and charging you money to see the show. And that's about it.

Hobgoblins can have kingdoms with 30,000+ evil soldiers on the border of a major human realm, and no one cares till they attack.

Orcs can plan rock concerts on the border of a human village, and not expect to be brutally attacked and be surprised when the locals run from them rather than taking their money and when advanturers come after them. And Roy and Durkon are both disgusted when adventurers DO go after them. And once they explain the situation everyone, even the jerk advanturers who want XP, is willing to let it go and let the orcs have their concert.

There's very little evidence of indescriminant attacks on inoccent humanoids. There's lots of evidence that you can just settle down and live. Notice that Hinjo's fleet had more than enough military force to wipe out the Orc tribe they encountered, was desperately looking for someplace to live, and rather than genociding them they had a pie eating contest. :)

Seriously. This is not a world that NEEDS the "great plan", maybe it did 1,000 years ago, or maybe the Dark One was as much of an evil jerk as his disciple.

Noooo, Eyepatch Chick! :smallfrown:

Oh, and Thanh, I guess.

That's our Redcloak: clever, ruthless, and dangerously genre savvy. I'm not really rooting for him, but I do hope he manages to improve the goblins' plight by the end of the strip. He deserves to accomplish something.

Redcloak is the second biggest cause of goblinoid deaths in the strip (place one goes to the Dark One and those who assassinated him). Red Cloak's plan of attack on Azure city was deliberately DESIGNED to get lots of hobgoblins killed for example. He can greatly ease the plight of goblinkind by DYING.

If he REALLY wants to help he can take his creation Xykon which he has repeatedly saved in preference to his fellows and kill him too.

If he REALLY REALLY wants to help he can true resurect his brother who actually DID something to help goblins prior to Red Cloak getting involved.

dancrilis

2012-01-13, 01:43 PM

I am not sure that Redcloak is hiding the phylactery from Xykon, he knows that Xykon is bright enough that he could have warded it with epic magic (even beyond the cloister currently affecting it).
But can't be sure he knows what it does and doesn't have.

For example Xykon testing Redcloak by knowing where it was at all times and simply pretending not to know is in character.

Similarly developing a spell to locate it, is not beyond the bounds of possibility, particularly as Redcloaks entire argument regarding staying in Azure city was that moving to the gate without knowing it's defences was dangerous.

Xykon could decide to wait around for a while to ensure that he retrieves it or develops a method of gaining a new one, as moving on to the next gate may be dangerous.

Xykon has after all tested Redcloak regarding this before.

skaddix

2012-01-13, 01:43 PM

I would think that the non-detection spells on it would make it impossible for Xykon to know whether there were *any* enchantments on it, otherwise, it would be findable via Detect Magic.

I believe not detect simply stops scrying. Besides it was said that both RC and Xykon put wards on it which means if RC gives a fake to Xykon he cannot put every single ward on it because they don't have access to all the same spells. Not to mention Xykon is a master at crafting he spends 8 hours a day crating. I am not even sure RC has the right level to craft one himself and I certainly don't think he can pull one over on Xykon.

Draconi Redfir

2012-01-13, 01:46 PM

Welp, Redcloak killed eyepatch chick himself, so much for that ship:smallfrown:

Belsirk

2012-01-13, 01:48 PM

mmm
Question: Could be the Dark One HAVE plans with Xykon instead of Redcloak? ?

I mean, Redcloack can't win anything from hide the artifiact except have more holes on the face than under his wrist ... but a God could try to take control of his best option for the door (After all Redcloak is a high NPC mean Xykon it's epic)

Holy_Knight

2012-01-13, 01:49 PM

Poor Thanh... he died a noble, heroic death, though. Like some have said, I hope we get to see him raised sometime and maybe even reunite with Niu. Their parting scene was really touching, even more so than one might have expected for characters we haven't seen as much of. It was sweet, and it actually sort of reminded me of Leia and Han when he's about to be frozen in carbonite.

I'm also of the mind that Redcloak is planning some sort of betrayal here, but that it wll probably be subtle. Just like (SoD Spoilers)
Xykon enchanted the MiTD to devour Redcloak if he ever betrays him,
perhaps Redcloak is setting up some kind of failsafe condition to impede/neutralize Xykon for when they inevitably turn on each other.

Jay R

2012-01-13, 01:49 PM

Redcloak doesn't dare destroy the phylactery now. He needs Xykon, and the phylactery has preserved him once already.

There is no point to destroying it until after the ritual has been cast. After that point, Xykon is only a threat to the goblins, and Redcloak would like to get rid of him. His plan might be to destroy the phylactery after the ritual is cast, while the Order of the Stick is attacking Xykon.

Ellye

2012-01-13, 01:57 PM

3. Doesn't Redcloak have to say the spell name when he kills eypatch girl?
With a single cast of Implosion, you're abe to target up to four beings, one per round.

aberratio ictus

2012-01-13, 02:00 PM

I knew Thanh's death was coming, but it didn't soften the impact.
Farewell, old friend. You will be missed.

Kish

2012-01-13, 02:12 PM

Redcloak wasn't using Implosion in panel #7; Implosion doesn't cover the target in a brown aura, like we see in 826.
More to the point, she's not imploding. So, you're correct that that's not the ongoing Implosion spell.

Redcloak probably said the spell name (most likely Slay Living or Destruction)--in panel five or six, when we weren't looking at him. That's not at all unlike Rich.

Whiffet

2012-01-13, 02:18 PM

Thanh! No!

That one tear in the last panel made me tear up a little, too. I'm glad Niu's alive, but... oh, geez.

t209

2012-01-13, 02:19 PM

Thanh! No!

That one tear in the last panel made me tear up a little, too. I'm glad Niu's alive, but... oh, geez.

Thou Thanh dies, La Resistance Lives on!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Wbh6HOWwA

NYCharlie212

2012-01-13, 02:31 PM

O-chul + Thanh is rapidly changing my perception of paladins that Miko has harmed.

Roderick_BR

2012-01-13, 02:33 PM

And this, kids, is what we call a true heroic sacrifice. Real wisdom is to know when you are faced with a hopeless situation, but still get the better out of it, letting someone else handle what you can't (in this case, be sneaky enough to escape with the message, like he told Niu to).
Poor Niu is now all alone until she can find a way to get back to Hinjo.

This gave me a sad. I'm crushed (no pun intended)

jidasfire

2012-01-13, 02:40 PM

And so dies the Resistance. I hope Niu can do more than simply report the bad news, and that perhaps even in death, they can actually accomplish something.

Much though I am not thrilled about this, it does get the story moving, and maybe Redcloak has once again miscalculated and an act of such aggressiveness provokes an attack while he's on his way out the door.

R.I.P. Thanh. You deserved better, but at least you died bravely.

Mantine

2012-01-13, 02:46 PM

And here I thought that, for once, the good guys would get some fair recognition of their efforts.
Guess not: curbstomped the next two strips, as usual. Villains down the road, heroes stuck as they were before?
Paint me surprised... wait, I'm not.

SamBurke

2012-01-13, 03:09 PM

NOT THANH!!!

Well... at least one person got out, and Hinjo will be warned.

We loved you, Thanh.

Nenec

2012-01-13, 03:17 PM

O-chul + Thanh is rapidly changing my perception of paladins that Miko has harmed.

I always hated paladins, and Miko proved me I was damn right, but O-chul, Than, Niu etc...they're totally different, you can't help but love them and cry for them!
So I'm totally with you in this!

denthor

2012-01-13, 03:23 PM

Toofey

2012-01-13, 03:29 PM

Anyone else think he might be trying to conceal that he's capable of 9th level spellcasting?

ScreamingGod

2012-01-13, 03:33 PM

Dear Giant,

This and the last episode (826) are full of visually thematic win, from the angled, Resistance panel of 826 to Niu's narrow escape. Well done, sir!

paladinofshojo

2012-01-13, 03:38 PM

The way I see it, I think the secrecy has 2 reasons:

1)I think Redcloak is trying to conceal the fact that someone actually got the better of him and Xykon, which could lead to an ambituous hobgoblin or someone else to try and lead a coup against them, or at the very least cause some dissention which would be lethal to the new state of Gobbotopia.

2) He's trying to hide the fact that he has employed fiends to do his dirty work....however this may not be a valid reason depending on how rosy the Dark One's relations are with the denizens of Baator.

SoC175

2012-01-13, 03:43 PM

Kish

2012-01-13, 03:45 PM

That shiney baubble is Red Cloaks holy symbol why would he hide it for any reason?

A preist with out a holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) has no clerical magic power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html).

comics 655 and 662
In the first strip you link, Redcloak casts a spell right after losing his holy symbol. Y'might want to edit "no" to "little."

In the second strip you link, he says right away that he'd gone to get his backup holy symbol.

In the most recent two strips to go up, he demonstrated that he has probably more clerical magic power than anyone else in the world where he exists...without the phylactery.

Taekwondodo

2012-01-13, 03:49 PM

Thanh! NOOOOOOO!
:smallfrown:

Nice comic Giant but, sniff, I think I speak for most people here when I say we'll miss Thanh.

Turgon9357

2012-01-13, 03:52 PM

I think Thanh has earned himself a :thanh: head for signatures.

Callista

2012-01-13, 03:53 PM

I always hated paladins, and Miko proved me I was damn right, but O-chul, Than, Niu etc...they're totally different, you can't help but love them and cry for them!
So I'm totally with you in this!Funny thing is, it's Miko that actually made me like paladins again. I don't think any of us liked Miko as a person; but as a character, I thought she was phenomenal--drove the story, very much like Javert in Les Miserables. She's a great example of a non-evil antagonist.

And it also shows that paladins don't have to be shiny, perfect people. If Miko can be as bad as she was and still be a paladin, then you're free to interpret the idea of what it means to be a paladin very widely. You can create fallible characters with flaws and problems and still have them be people who, at heart, care about others and care about honor; and that's all they need to be paladins. You can create realistic paladins, instead of knight-in-shining-armor Mary Sues.

I like that about OotS's paladins, in general. We have Miko, with her fatal flaws, a character designed to eventually fall; O-Chul, the veteran who knows he sucks at bluffing but wins debates with Redcloak through sheer determination and durability; Hinjo, with average combat skills for his level but maxed leadership ability, keeping his homeland together even in exile; and now Thanh, who can keep his head even when he's seeing everyone he knows die around him, and still strategize well enough to pull every scrap of advantage from the situation around him--even when the optimum strategy means using himself as bait.

Before OotS, I figured you either had to play a perfect clone paladin, every one of them the same, courtly knights just looking for dragons to slay and, optionally, mattress tags to avenge. I subconsciously thought of "paladin" as a personality type, something that dictated your every action. Now? I know paladins are individuals, and there are so many possibilities for them. Paladins have become my favorite class to play.

Peelee

2012-01-13, 03:55 PM

A salute for Thanh. A brave man killed while honoring his duty. http://www.atfreeforum.com/agp/images/smiles/icon_salut.gif

Here here! To the bravest man Niu ever knew! http://www.atfreeforum.com/agp/images/smiles/icon_salut.gif

Callista

2012-01-13, 03:58 PM

Yeah. We need a T-shirt or something. I know, I know; he's a minor character, but still, that kind of heroism should merit some kind of an epitaph.

What I thought was coolest about it: He's outmatched, he knows he's outmatched, he knows he can't win, and he knows he's got minutes to live if he's lucky. And we still see him thinking, "Okay, this is the situation, what's my best strategy?" Often times when they're in deadly danger like that, many characters will either be in denial, refuse to accept that their friends just died in front of their eyes; or else they'll lose hope and just passively wait for the end. It takes a lot of guts to do neither--accept the horror you've just witnessed, refuse to lose hope, and calmly gather your resources to keep fighting evil.

Paladin fear immunity FTW, is all I'm sayin'.

OPM

2012-01-13, 04:01 PM

Awesome strip. I've got a nitpick, though -- dead polymorph targets return to their normal forms.

He has orange skin and has since he turned traitor, so I think polymorph wore off a long time ago. I don't know why he has the weird haircut and all, but maybe he had a nonmagical disguise in addition to polymorph.

He can't let Xykon know about this because Xykon would be pissed if he knew that Redcloak could have crushed the Resistance ages ago.

Callista

2012-01-13, 04:04 PM

My guess: Polymorph Any Object. It's permanent if the target form is close enough to the original.

Tom Lehmann

2012-01-13, 04:10 PM

Hmm... if we assume that RC is going to try the ole switcheroo ploy, would the perfect place to hide an undetectable phylactery (minus the chain) be behind a certain eyepatch?

Kish

2012-01-13, 04:21 PM

No.

If Xykon ever questions Redcloak's obedience, behind the eyepatch is the first place he'll look, to check if Redcloak regenerated his eye.

LtNOWIS

2012-01-13, 04:22 PM

So why didn't the paladin use Detect Evil on the traitor? That seems short-sighted on his part.

Presumably Redcloak took the extra effort to find a lawful neutral hobgoblin to be the infiltrator.

Kish

2012-01-13, 04:25 PM

To me, this strip proved that Redcloak needs to die before the story ends. And no Redemption Equals Death. I want to see Hinjo, O-Chul, and Lien smite him. His death needs to prove, to him, that despite what he thinks, he's completely Evil.
He's quite aware he's vulnerable to Smite Evil. He rejects the definition, not the fact that the term "Evil" applies to him under OotS's alignment system.

t209

2012-01-13, 04:35 PM

what if
Niuh is secretly married to Thanh and pregnant with his child?
P.S This will be a bad news for Kato's heir. I am smelling a plot by General Tarquin.

Nenec

2012-01-13, 04:41 PM

Funny thing is, it's Miko that actually made me like paladins again. I don't think any of us liked Miko as a person; but as a character, I thought she was phenomenal--drove the story, very much like Javert in Les Miserables. She's a great example of a non-evil antagonist.
[...]

Mind you, I didn't say I didn't like Miko as character. She was well developed and all, she was a very important character. And in fact you someone that's not so well shaped can't even be "hated". But I think it's a personal matter of taste and the prenconcept we have of things: how Miko was is exactly the way I've always seen paladins, I've never seen them as "perfect" but rather as fallacious cause too blind and focused. Thanh in particular, instead, seemed to be more on the reasonable and adapting kind.
As I said it's all a matter of tastes, I've always been more on the neutral side than the good one, so you can understand :smallwink:

He has orange skin and has since he turned traitor, so I think polymorph wore off a long time ago. I don't know why he has the weird haircut and all, but maybe he had a nonmagical disguise in addition to polymorph.
Uhm...orange skin? Why I see nothing like that on the spy? I'm confused.
My thought, as many others said as well, is he either as a perma polymorph or he's still to change.

DementedFellow

2012-01-13, 04:46 PM

If only Thanh had told us his last name. He might have survived.

Vemynal

2012-01-13, 04:47 PM

Thanh is a BAMF!

This comic plays so well off why paladins can be the worst or best players lol

Also, I'm loving Redcloak in this strip. Like someone said before he shows what a tier 1 class is truly capable of!

t209

2012-01-13, 04:47 PM

If only Thanh had told us his last name. He might have survived.

And also we might learn if he is O-Chul's brother or Brother as in comrade.

rewinn

2012-01-13, 04:52 PM

Anyone else think he might be trying to conceal that he's capable of 9th level spellcasting?

:redcloak: Silence! I need to have some advantage Xykon doesn't know about when the time comes for betrayal.

:xykon: Crafting a doo-dad that protects against implosion should be possible, if I wasn't in such a hurry.

Name Lips

2012-01-13, 04:55 PM

Redcloak isn't going to tell Xykon anything. Anything at all.

No reason to get caught in lies. Just keep the phylactery hidden and safe, and see what Xykon does when he simply never finds it.

And next time some heroes come along and "kill" Xykon, Redcloak can destroy the phylactery and make it permanent, and be the sole ruler of Gobletopia.

Peelee

2012-01-13, 05:07 PM

Mind you, I didn't say I didn't like Miko as character. She was well developed and all, she was a very important character. And in fact someone that's not so well shaped can't even be "hated". *snip*

Might I introduce you to the elf commander (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)? Or heck, to almost fully half of the last strip discussion thread?

Not that I'm gonna try to stir up that hornet's nest again.... Just pointing out.

Kish

2012-01-13, 05:17 PM

:redcloak: Silence! I need to have some advantage Xykon doesn't know about when the time comes for betrayal.

:xykon: Crafting a doo-dad that protects against implosion should be possible, if I wasn't in such a hurry.
I know you're joking, but, just for the record: Implosion has a Fortitude save and cannot target objects, so Xykon is flat-out immune to it.

Name Lips

2012-01-13, 05:25 PM

I know you're joking, but, just for the record: Implosion has a Fortitude save and cannot target objects, so Xykon is flat-out immune to it.

Undead do not count as objects in D&D. They are simply "creatures" with the "undead" type.

They have no constitution score, but still have a fortitude saving throw listed in their stat block and can make fortitude saving throws like any other creature.

Thomar_of_Uointer

2012-01-13, 05:30 PM

Undead do not count as objects in D&D. They are simply "creatures" with the "undead" type.

They have no constitution score, but still have a fortitude saving throw listed in their stat block and can make fortitude saving throws like any other creature.

The undead type grants "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." That covers about 90% of spells that allow a Fortitude save, including implosion.

Ashtagon

2012-01-13, 05:33 PM

By the way, did anyone else notice that those big grey things are osmium elementals? Osmium has a standard atomic weight of 190.23...

Skull the Troll

2012-01-13, 05:35 PM

Wow, just wow.

Redcloak is well on his way to becoming a character the could potentially take over the world on his own.

Well, that was the original 'Plan' before Xykon took over. Unfortunately Redcloak seems to be unaware that Xykon is prepping a cleric to replace him as well. Looks like 'irreconcilable differences' are in store for Team Evil.

Nenec

2012-01-13, 05:55 PM

Might I introduce you to the elf commander (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)? Or heck, to almost fully half of the last strip discussion thread?

Not that I'm gonna try to stir up that hornet's nest again.... Just pointing out.
Sigh ok so let me rephrase: I can't hate someone not so well shaped. Dislike, not more than that. Better like this? As I said it's all subjective.

Let's leave hornet's nests alone, can we?:smallsmile:

By the way, did anyone else notice that those big grey things are osmium elementals? Osmium has a standard atomic weight of 190.23...
I must confess I checked out all Osmium proprieties when reading the symbol so to understand that one elemental better. Non standard elementals ftw.

UtimaII

2012-01-13, 05:59 PM

This was a great strip. OotS is now getting darker and darker every moment. It's getting to the point that I'm wondering how the heroes will even win. I'm actually getting a little chill, like after I read the Red Wedding.

As for why Red Cloak wants the events to be secret, I believe it is because he doesn't want everyone to know that the necklace is Xykon's phylactery. Remember in 824 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html), the hobgoblins who found the phylactery didn't even what the thing was or why it was important. Indeed, it would be the height of foolishness for either Xykon or Red Cloak to let in be known what and where Xykon's phylactery is. Just because we the audience, Tsukio, Soon's Ghost, Ochul, the IFCC, and perhaps the Order know about the phylactery, in no way means that it is not supposed to be a secret; their just the ones who happen to know. So that's why he voice his plan to kill his loyal minion; he knew about the phylactery and thus knew too much.

luc258

2012-01-13, 06:18 PM

I don't think he wants to hide the fact that his holy symbol is Xykon's phylactery, since it is widely known ever since this link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) story arc.
With Ochuls escape it's probably save to assume every enemy of team evil knows of the phylactery.

ganglefortrift

2012-01-13, 06:18 PM

I'm probably not the only one pointing this out, but Niu is quite clearly dead on panel 8 of the last comic.

Kish

2012-01-13, 06:22 PM

No, you're not the only person pointing that out.

And I'm not the only person pointing out that no, that's a different Azurite. Who, as far as the "part of her face isn't covered" thing you see in that panel, cannot be identified any further than "it's a female Azurite," and thus I don't know why you'd feel confident saying it was Niu even if it wasn't, by the latest strip, obviously not Niu.

Gift Jeraff

2012-01-13, 06:22 PM

I'm probably not the only one pointing this out, but Niu is quite clearly dead on panel 8 of the last comic.Shorter hair and different coloured body armour. EDIT: Is this the first time we see Niu's weapon of choice? Last time she only brought a blunt weapon because she thought they were dealing with skeletons.

FatJose

2012-01-13, 06:27 PM

I'm probably not the only one pointing this out, but Niu is quite clearly dead on panel 8 of the last comic.

That's a generic female guard. Nyu has a unique hairstyle

The exceptions to the rule are Kazumi and Daigo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html) who were stock generics who developed into characters through dialogue. Also, no longer having generic models after the siege. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)

ganglefortrift

2012-01-13, 06:30 PM

Reason I thought that it was Niu: the last 2 strips didn't show anyone else with that haircut or helmet which was with the group at that time. So yeah, got it.

Peelee

2012-01-13, 06:31 PM

Shorter hair and different coloured body armour. EDIT: Is this the first time we see Niu's weapon of choice? Last time she only brought a blunt weapon because she thought they were dealing with skeletons.

Aaaaaaaand there's something for the "things you never noticed" thread....

dancrilis

2012-01-13, 06:33 PM

I'm probably not the only one pointing this out, but Niu is quite clearly dead on panel 8 of the last comic.

That woman was dead in panel 7 of 825, and is wearing lighter armour then Niu.

Is this the first time we see Niu's weapon of choice? Last time she only brought a blunt weapon because she thought they were dealing with skeletons.
This time she was dealing with Hobgoblins and brought a sword, many people don't have a weapon of choice merely going with what is most efficient.

rewinn

2012-01-13, 06:33 PM

Just keep the phylactery hidden and safe, and see what Xykon does when he simply never finds it.

If RC doesn't find the phylactery soon, Xykon will kill him as an incentive for Jirix to do better.

rewinn

2012-01-13, 06:40 PM

I know you're joking, but, just for the record: Implosion has a Fortitude save and cannot target objects, so Xykon is flat-out immune to it.

Hmmm ... in that case, is there any other 9th-table Clerical spell RC might use to stab Xykon in the back (...keeping in mind that liches are immune to backstabbing)?

True Resurrection is instantaneous, takes away some of Xykon's advantages over RC (e.g. immunity to implosion), and includes some minor debuffs to the target.

Not that RC is planning to betray Xykon and would therefore wish to accrue some advantage. Oh no. No, never!

Mutant Sheep

2012-01-13, 06:47 PM

True Resurrection is instantaneous, takes away some of Xykon's advantages over RC (e.g. immunity to implosion), and includes some minor debuffs to the target.

I'm pretty sure that if he WAS able to True Resurrect an (really old) epic level lich in the first place, Xykon would fall over dead from a caffeine overload.:smalltongue:

Peelee

2012-01-13, 06:48 PM

True Resurrection is instantaneous, takes away some of Xykon's advantages over RC (e.g. immunity to implosion), and includes some minor debuffs to the target.

All other problems with that aside, Rezzes require the person to be willing to come back to life. Doubtful Xykon would willingly concede his massive power so easily. Maybe if there was a really, REALLY terrible pot of coffee right near him...

EDIT: GAHHHHHH My joke was ninja'd! Curse you, Sheep!

Ridureyu

2012-01-13, 06:50 PM

Nooooo! One of the evil humans escaped! Don't leave now, Redcloak! You have to kill her! ALL THE HUMANS MUST DIE!

Bad Hair Day

2012-01-13, 06:54 PM

Whats up with people marking pure speculation as spoiler?

Pure optimism. They (okay- we) hope to be exactly right and thus we are "spoiling."

Metal Archon

2012-01-13, 06:58 PM

skaddix

2012-01-13, 07:09 PM

If the Resistance just got completely crushed for good, as insinuated by Than, then I doubt Redcloak is going to hide the phylactery any longer to delay their departure. The Elven insurgents are, for all appearances, dead and any organized threat from the resistance is pacified. There isn't much else to wrap up.

I figured there were more resistance hide-outs, but its rather evident I'm wrong.

even if there are hold outs should be nothing the goblins sans team evil cannot handle. all the elves and paladins are dead and the pcs are gone leaving token resistance at best.

rewinn

2012-01-13, 07:13 PM

All other problems with that aside, Rezzes require the person to be willing to come back to life. Doubtful Xykon would willingly concede his massive power so easily. Maybe if there was a really, REALLY terrible pot of coffee right near him...

Hm. Well, we *know* RC is planning to betray Xykon, and is a very very careful planner. RC *needs* some advantage.

It may be simply that RC doesn't want anyone outside Team Evil to know he has 9th table spells. That's a tactical advantage right there, against whoever is guarding the next Gates.

However, it may also be that TRUE Resurrection, when used offensively, is not subject to the will of the target (plus or minus a save.) It depends on how the mechanism of the target's will works. Resurrection has a couple of effects, mostly importantly (A) building a new mortal body and (B) bringing the soul back from the afterlife. It would seem most plausible that the automatic will save affects (B) rather than (A), but in the case of a lich, the soul is already present in the Phylactery and therefore resistance to being brought back from the afterlife wouldn't count.

This is just speculation, of course. In view of Xykon's lichborne +8 to Sense Motive, it may be safest for RC to simply play along and hope for Divine Intervention against Xykon.

Skull the Troll

2012-01-13, 07:16 PM

If the Resistance just got completely crushed for good, as insinuated by Than, then I doubt Redcloak is going to hide the phylactery any longer to delay their departure. The Elven insurgents are, for all appearances, dead and any organized threat from the resistance is pacified. There isn't much else to wrap up.

I figured there were more resistance hide-outs, but its rather evident I'm wrong.

Redcloaks original plan for controlling Xykon was to control the Phylactery. Xykon stomped on that pretty hard, and RC's new charactoer growth may have undone Xykon's control of him. (the guilt over killing his brother)

Lvl45DM!

2012-01-13, 07:21 PM

Eyepatch chick! noooooo! you should've died with a smile like you went into every battle!
Thanh! NOOOOOOO! didn't even get a hit on RC
RC! You bastard :smallfurious: You are so frikkin evil!
Niu :smalleek::smallfrown: It is hardest for you to live on now

Cirin

2012-01-13, 07:25 PM

It just occurred to me that if Xykon succeeds and gains the power of the remaining Gates, that he can probably re-write reality however he wishes, thus replacing Redcloak's god (and all gods in general). It makes me wonder why Redcloak has ever followed Xykon at all.

Because it's been established that the ritual does will not give Xykon or Redcloak control of the Gates or Snarl.

It gives control directly to The Dark One, the god of the Goblins. Redcloak knows this, he is lying to Xykon and telling him the ritual gives them control.

Thus Xykon thinks he's getting a superweapon with which he can conquer the world, which is why he's part of the plan. Redcloak doesn't care what he has to do, just as long as they can get to a gate and cast the ritual so The Dark One has control over the Gates and with them, the Snarl.

As people have pointed out, if Tsukiko is trying to learn or reverse-engineer the ritual herself, it makes it very "interesting" if she deciphers that part of the spell.

Dr.Epic

2012-01-13, 07:26 PM

Man, I hate these light, fluffy comics. When are they gonna get dark again?:smallwink::smalltongue:

SatyreIkon

2012-01-13, 07:30 PM

And there goes the Resistance. Awesome comic, though I really am sad right now :smallfrown:

deuxhero

2012-01-13, 07:32 PM

OK, let's see: Thanh is dead, the resistance is crushed, and RC has the phylactery. Yep, that's a good strip for Friday the 13th.

Can't wait for the OOTS to kick some tail so I can see the good guys get some wins.

Did not notice the date. The Giant thinks of everything!

1.a) Does RC know there's a polymorphed spy? When it was mentioned earlier, it's unclear who would have already known and who wouldn't have. The Goblinoid spy might not have had a chance to pass on that info if he just found out. Besides that, RC may not have any idea WHO the human spy is. Xykon would cheefully kill as many Goblins as necessary to see which one turned human when he died, but RC might decide not to bother ferreting out one spy with no one left to spy for.

IIRC Team Evil has a ring of True Seeing.

luc258

2012-01-13, 07:32 PM

Fluffy fun time is over, team evil rules the next arc :xykon:

OzOz

2012-01-13, 07:33 PM

Well, at least Niu got away :(

R.I.P. Thanh and *sob* Eyepatch Girl.

Aurabolt

2012-01-13, 07:36 PM

skaddix

2012-01-13, 07:42 PM

When they shouldn't. They are still at a disadvantage, since Xykon hasn't done anything since he's so scared about his phylactery being destroyed-which wouldn't actually kill him as we learned in Start of Darkness-that he didn't do anything.

Also, how exactly is fighting the Paladin one-on-one a stupid risk? A Cleric of Redcloak's level would be able to defeat a Paladin quite easily, especially that he is very powerful spellcaster and Clerics are known to be at par defensively against Paladins.

it is an unnecessary risk why fight the paladin when your summon already has him captured and can crush him?

Well RC lost to Miko and lost in eye to another Paladin.

which reminds me what level was miko seeing as she owned the oots and crushed RC?

Dancing Cthulhu

2012-01-13, 07:50 PM

Poor Thanh. At least he went out with honor and bravely. Redcloak has really learned nothing though. He is still clearly able to kill his own kind/alies without any real regret.

Other than the regret he felt at the situation, apologizing for being unable to raise him and the thanks he gave he didn't have to kill him himself.

Redcloak is still a LE player of a bigger game. What he learned wasn't "I won't sacrifice my own kind for my gods plan for the greater good" it was "I... see. Or feel. Now. What that sacrifice means. I will never sacrifice my own people so carelessly or without concern again."

This is really pretty different to sending waves of hobgoblins to choke up the wheels of the Azure City war machine just because, well, he could and it was quick and stuff without the slightest bit of concern or compassion.

zimmerwald1915

2012-01-13, 07:56 PM

This is really pretty different to sending waves of hobgoblins to choke up the wheels of the Azure City war machine just because, well, he could and it was quick and stuff without the slightest bit of concern or compassion.
You know who it's not that different for? The goblins who end up dead to further Redcloak's goals. I bet they accept with equanimity the apologies he now delivers to their corpses.

Dancing Cthulhu

2012-01-13, 08:00 PM

Also, how exactly is fighting the Paladin one-on-one a stupid risk? A Cleric of Redcloak's level would be able to defeat a Paladin quite easily, especially that he is very powerful spellcaster and Clerics are known to be at par defensively against Paladins.

That's V with three epic level souls kind of thinking. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, maybe not quite like that. Redcloak is on a secret mission, with one objective, which he has completed. What is to be gained from personally fighting the head of the resistance? What is to be gained from being taunted into it?

Plus Redcloak probably has a better idea of his personal situation there (spells cast and those still available, duration left on summons, the amount of time he can safely spend in the resistance base as opposed to being somewhere else, how good his defensive rating is, considering he doesn't wear armor, is etc).

Therefore even if the chance of Thanh achieving something, anything, are only 10% that could be seen as a stupid risk when there is absolutely no reason to allow the circumstances for that 10% to ever become possible.

Dancing Cthulhu

2012-01-13, 08:11 PM

Left out of my post before - Thanh, I liked you a lot. You will be missed.

I'm happy to see Niu made it out. Thanh wont be forgotten.

And Redcloak, truly impressive. I love the three teams The Giant has created and the dynamics in them. The OotS goes without saying.

The new Linear Guild - hasn't done much yet, but I love the potential.

And Team Evil, how it has grown. Xykon, MitD, Tsukiko and Redcloak. I always enjoy seeing them, and it really looks like Redcloak is on the up and up.

You know who it's not that different for? The goblins who end up dead to further Redcloak's goals. I bet they accept with equanimity the apologies he now delivers to their corpses.

I don't think I said that.

Although they probably would, from what we have seen the them so far.

And that wasn't the comment. It was "Redcloak hasn't changed much if he is still willing to sacrifice his kind". Which was never the change.

But by that thinking every general ever who has committed troops knowing the chances of some, maybe even all, dying but who only does so when necessary and while being affected by the sacrifice is no different from a general wastefully throwing away lives without a care in the world.

Redcloak used to be the latter. Now he is the former.

I don't think he wants to hide the fact that his holy symbol is Xykon's phylactery, since it is widely known ever since this link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) story arc.
With Ochuls escape it's probably save to assume every enemy of team evil knows of the phylactery.

It wont happen, but for some reason I imagine Redcloak sitting Xykon down in front of the TiVo, showing him an image of his phylactery... somewhere (around the neck of the Dark One maybe?).

And telling him it is in a pretty safe place, as long as nothing happens to Redcloak, so Xykon should probably make an effort to keep him alive and happy.

If the Resistance just got completely crushed for good, as insinuated by Than, then I doubt Redcloak is going to hide the phylactery any longer to delay their departure. The Elven insurgents are, for all appearances, dead and any organized threat from the resistance is pacified. There isn't much else to wrap up.

I figured there were more resistance hide-outs, but its rather evident I'm wrong.

If I was Redcloak I would actually want to move on as quickly as possible, even if I wanted the city to be as sound and secure as possible, based on a couple of things:

A. The straining of the relationship with Xykon. Longer delays mean more things that could crop up that could strain the relationship more. If one must transport a potentially ticking time bomb best get it to its destination as quickly as possible.
B. Tsukiko. If Redcloak knows Xykon has her looking into the ritual, well, best not to let her make to much headway with that.

Ultimately having a stable city for some of goblin kind is great, but far better to make the changes necessary to improve the lot of all goblin kind as quickly as possible and before anything new pops up to scuttle the plan. With the Resistance gone the main thorn in the cities side is dealt with, so on to the next Gate!

ti'esar

2012-01-13, 08:28 PM

I don't think I said that.

Although they probably would, from what we have seen the them so far.

And that wasn't the comment. It was "Redcloak hasn't changed much if he is still willing to sacrifice his kind". Which was never the change.

But by that thinking every general ever who has committed troops knowing the chances of some, maybe even all, dying but who only does so when necessary and while being affected by the sacrifice is no different from a general wastefully throwing away lives without a care in the world.

Redcloak used to be the latter. Now he is the former. It is a major difference.

I agree with this. Yes, he still sacrificed one goblin. But pre-siege of Azure City, I don't think he would have gone to the trouble of making sure his attack force consisted solely of summoned fiends.

I do think it's still a significant and morally questionable character moment - given that the death of the Resistance mini-arc seems primarily meant to set up Redcloak as a major villain in his own right, it's important that we have both his dangerousness and his LE alignment emphasized. But I don't think it can really be seen as a sign that his "epiphany" meant nothing.

As for the comic itself... I actually find it less bleak then the previous two. The Resistance is finished, but Niu lived, and Thanh died a hero's death that adds him to the list of Sapphire Guard members in OOTS that represent what paladins should be - something I never would have expected from his first appearance. RIP. And meanwhile, it looks like those speculating that Redcloak is up to something here knew what they were talking about after all...

On a lighter note, I find myself somehow unsurprised at denizens of the Lower Planes having a fondness for Apple products.

Dancing Cthulhu

2012-01-13, 08:36 PM

I agree with this. Yes, he still sacrificed one goblin. But pre-siege of Azure City, I don't think he would have gone to the trouble of making sure his attack force consisted solely of summoned fiends.

I do think it's still a significant and morally questionable character moment - given that the death of the Resistance mini-arc seems primarily meant to set up Redcloak as a major villain in his own right, it's important that we have both his dangerousness and his LE alignment emphasized. But I don't think it can really be seen as a sign that his "epiphany" meant nothing.

I agree with that.

EccentricFellow

2012-01-13, 08:42 PM

I KNEW that iPads were evil!

ti'esar

2012-01-13, 08:44 PM

I would note that there is still a difference between knowing that you'll lose some troops to the vagaries of war, and deliberately sacrificing them. But it's really besides the point.

Nohar

2012-01-13, 08:48 PM

True Resurrection is instantaneous, takes away some of Xykon's advantages over RC (e.g. immunity to implosion), and includes some minor debuffs to the target.

I'm sorry to correct you, but as Resurrection, True Resurrection requires a 10 minutes casting time, which is a whole 100 rounds (since 1 round = 6 seconds). I don't completly dismiss your hypothesis, but I can't see Redcloak casting such spell in all impunity on Xykon, when he can use others spells at his advantage. No, really, True Resurrection would be a death sentence to Redcloak. Plus, he can't instant-cast it, even with the epic-level meta-magic gift "Instant cast" (this gift only works for spells which are normally cast in one round), though I'm not really familiar with D&D rules when it comes to epic level and such things, so I may be wrong (and in any case, he would need some more levels).

So... Yeah, unless Xykon is incapacipated, Redcloak won't have the opportunity to use that spell. And even if Redcloak had 100 free rounds against Xykon, I can bet he would use these to cast others spells or do others actions which could end Xykon permanently.

Doug Lampert

2012-01-13, 08:53 PM

However, it may also be that TRUE Resurrection, when used offensively, is not subject to the will of the target (plus or minus a save.) It depends on how the mechanism of the target's will works.
It works because ALL magic to return creatures from the dead give the target knowledge of the casting cleric's name, god, and alignment and work only with the target's agreement.

There's no exception even suggested for your imaginary "offensive" use of the spell.

t209

2012-01-13, 09:06 PM

At least team evil is showing signs of splitting up or rivalry starscream thingy.
Would Niuh go Rambo or go down on glory charge after sending bad news?
What if she's pregnant with her secret husband's child, Thanh jr.? That could be more tragic.

PallElendro

2012-01-13, 10:03 PM

Sweet! I'm getting an iPad!

It's cuz Apple users go to hell, right?
It's what I heard.

Kodan

2012-01-13, 10:14 PM

I read this post up to like, the 5th page and felt I needed to register and post regarding the RedCloak speculation

I think that some of you guy are overcomplicating things.
Since O'Chuul escaped capture, and got the Phylactery lost, by now the bad guys would assume he met up with the other Paladins who escaped, and would have told them the Phylactery is gone, so they would be stuck in the city.

Isn't it possible that Redclock ISN'T actually planning anything? There are 2 possibilities here, not including the speculation.

1) He and Xyclon, or just he himself cooked up this plan to recover the Phylactery secretly. That way, he could present it to Xyclon and the fact the Phylactery has been recovered would be kept secret, and keep the good guys on edge.

2) He actually IS planning on keeping it secret from everyone, including Xyclon, but not to betray him or anything. By keeping it secret, the Phylactery remains safe from everyone. Who knows, Xyclon might tamper with the Phylactery to make it easier to find next time, thus making it vulnerable.

Edit: tl;dr The longer the amulet stays secret by being "missing", the longer it remains safe, even in plain sight.

T.G. Oskar

2012-01-13, 10:41 PM

I guess someone else has mentioned this (not just now, but ever since the first time Redcloak summoned a Periodic Table Elemental), so excuses if I sound so repetitive, but this is just beyond hilarious:

If it weren't for hir specialization, V would have had the ultimate weapon against Redcloak.

Major Creation. The very existence of the Osmium Elemental BEGS for Anti-Osmium, which is the ancient weapon of the Optimizers for dealing catgirl-genocide levels of damage.

And it's a 5th level spell, to boot. Of course, there's that pesky 10 minute timer, but add a dollop of Quintessence (or Ranch!) on it, and whenever that Osmium Elemental gets summoned (or worse, called!) again...

Having said that, I guess Redcloak either made a mistake or took a level in Bard, because letting someone live and not checking all corpses seems a bit off. But, if Niu ends up being some sort of an avenger, she'll undoubtedly make a mistake that Redcloak will capitalize, and since being the last of the old Resistance probably implies that she'll rebuild one (after informing the remaining fleet of the loss), that would be a pretty harsh loss.

But of course, what else is to expect. There will be one more strip, probably, where Niu is killed unceremoniously by Redcloak in mid-Sending just for the heck of it (expediently, and for maximum effectiveness).

Ravian

2012-01-13, 11:28 PM

Redcloak better have a pretty foolproof plan, or he's going to find himself replaced by Tsukiko permanently. He can't try to bargain with Xykon, since at this point he is largely expendable, powerful but expendable. My guess is that perhaps he seals the phyalactery in an anti-magic zone, then try to pass off a fake as the real one. That way when Xykon is destroyed he can be contained. (Are we even sure a lich's regeneration can function in an anti-magic zone?) Of course even this leaves them with a lich that could escape at the slightest mistake, not to mention Tsukiko and the MITD would still be major problems for RC in his betrayal.

ti'esar

2012-01-13, 11:38 PM

Incidentally, is it just me, or is it starting to seem like having an awesome mustache is a death sentence in OOTS? Shojo, the Cliffport Chief of Police, and now Thanh - is this mere coincidence?

multilis

2012-01-13, 11:53 PM

Oh no! There are some goblins killed by resistance! We must rez one of them to find out what happened!

What... they stole X's phylactery?!?! The resistance has it now!? They probably sent to to the elves! (hee hee hee)

[It can now be destroyed when useful and someone else takes the blame]

In his mind, Redcloak justifies himself to his brother who was killed by X. Just as black dragon wanted to avenge her son...

rewinn

2012-01-14, 12:02 AM

There's no exception even suggested for your imaginary "offensive" use of the spell.

Some say "imaginary", others would say "imaginative", and thank you for the complement!

Speaking of which, Redcloak is showing an awful lot of creativity (cf. elementals). There are some who have underestimated his ability to solve problems, and they are mostly dead or worse (...Start of Darkness anyone?)

I'm sorry to correct you, but as Resurrection, True Resurrection requires a 10 minutes casting time
I misread, or was mislead by, a wiki somewhere. How could a wiki be mistaken?

---
Let me state for the record that the notion of RC handing Xykon a fake phylactery strikes me as absurd.
1. X has trusted RC with it all along, and nothing has changed his reasons for doing so.
2. RC has no way of knowing whether X has bugged the phylactery with something RC can't replicate in a fake.
3. The penalty for getting caught is extreme - not merely whatever death X chooses to deal however slowly X chooses to deal it, but also the collapse of the Dark One's plan.
4. The usefulness of fakery seems low. When RC wants to do something dirty with the phylactery, all he has to do is plan ahead a little bit, then Word Of Recall back to his sanctuary where he's secreted a Teleport thingamabob to whereever the phylactery-breaking-thingy may be.

Redcloak's plan is sure to have one element at least: it will be very very wise. Relying on X not to notice a fake phylactery seems unwise.

Dracarot

2012-01-14, 12:06 AM

Truly only the honor of a Paladin is unbreakable.

Rest in Peace Thanh.

FerhagoRosewood

2012-01-14, 12:26 AM

NOOO!

My favorite unnamed character, the girl with the eyepatch, is dead!

RIP.

T_T

Geordnet

2012-01-14, 12:33 AM

There goes my favorite minor character. :frown:

R.I.P. Thanh (#511-#827)

Larae

2012-01-14, 12:36 AM

Thahn! I was just getting attached to you! :smallfrown:

Man, the strip has just been blowing me away lately. Now seems like as good a time to register as any.

Incidentally, is it just me, or is it starting to seem like having an awesome mustache is a death sentence in OOTS? Shojo, the Cliffport Chief of Police, and now Thanh - is this mere coincidence?

Whoa, you're right! Not to mention Kubota. Mustaches must be highly symbolic of leadership, and help to identify their wearers as a threat.

LtNOWIS

2012-01-14, 12:58 AM

Might I introduce you to the elf commander (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html)? Or heck, to almost fully half of the last strip discussion thread?

Not that I'm gonna try to stir up that hornet's nest again.... Just pointing out.

Animal cruelty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) is also a quick way to earn hatred for a character.

Chess Tyrant

2012-01-14, 01:17 AM

I'm sorry to correct you, but as Resurrection, True Resurrection requires a 10 minutes casting time

Actually, I think it's a one-minute casting time.

Nabirius

2012-01-14, 01:33 AM

Man I'm really not sure how to feel on this one. I've always felt that Redcloak was a tragic and even semi-heroic sort of villain. When I think about it from the light that he thinks the resistance was to blame for the massacre at the Goblin's barbeque, I can understand why he was so cold. But it just strikes me as out of character that Redcloak would let any of his goblins die. Maybe it will make more sense later.

ExuroCastellum

2012-01-14, 01:44 AM

12 gods welcome you home brave paladin. Osmium, the oh to cute silent killer. I'm distressed that judging by alot of the sentiment ive seen im one of the few tarquin fans XD im glad to see Team Evil again, but c'mon, tarquin's so uber. Me thinks there may be some tactical geniusing when these storm clouds gather round a the next gate.

Sicarius

2012-01-14, 01:49 AM

I'm impressed. The Giant really, in these last few comics, has demonstrated great imagination and storytelling. Many players and DM's alike know that the paladin class involves, by it's very nature, a great deal of zeal (amplified by their immunity to fear) and selflessness. With a look at the remnants of the Sapphire Guard, all of them exhibit these traits, but the Giant presents different and varied ways to exhibit them in the comic.

I actually am comparing Thanh favorably to Roy. Both are incredibly Lawful front-line warriors who ended up toe-to-toe in a relatively impossible CR encounter. Both take their duty to the very end of their lives. He's earned his spot in the Southern Gods' Lawful Good afterlife.

Would've liked to see what his Paladin Mount was. I'm guessing if he didn't have any trouble fighting a few wights, he was at least a 5th-level paladin.