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NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 11:12 AM
The Darkstalker

The darkstalker is a master of stealth and death. She is never seen unless she wishes to be. She is a master of striking from the dark, and bringing a foe to his knees.

A darkstalker forms a Pact with the Plane of Shadows, granting her powerful magics and supernatural abilities that most rogues can only dream of (or buy wands for).

Alignment: Any. Darkstalkers tend to be nonlawful, as there is nothing honorable about their tactics. Most darkstalkers are evil, but not all.

HD: d8
Class Skills: The darkstalker's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points: 10+Int per level (x4 at first level)

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Better to be Clever than Skilled, Disappear, Strike from Shadows +1d8

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Stealth Mastery, Eyes of the Dark

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Vanishing Act, Strike from Shadows +2d8

4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Shrouded in Shadows

5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Better to be Clever than Good, Strike from Shadows +3d8

6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Darkstalker, Careful Shadows

7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Haunting Stalker, Strike from Shadows +4d8

8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Shrouded in Darkness, Hunting Spider

9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|Better to be Clever than Strong, Strike from Shadows +5d8

10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|Eyes of the Stalker

11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|Ally of the Dark, Strike from Shadows +6d8

12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Doppelganger

13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Enervating Strike, Strike from Shadows +7d8

14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|Death Attack

15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9|Shadow Walk, Strike from Shadows +8d8

16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Abundant Step

17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Shadow Step, Strike from Shadows +9d8

18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|Offerings to the Shadows

19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|Master of Stealth, Strike from Shadows +10d8

20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|Shadow Stalker
[/table]

Class Features: All of the following are class features of the darkstalker.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A darkstalker is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the shortbow, the longbow, the rapier, the kukri, the shortsword, and the longsword. She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Better to be Clever than Skilled (Ex): A darkstalker's ingenuity allows her to improvise with weapons she is unfamiliar with more easily, as well as move more easily in clunky armor. She subtracts her Intelligence bonus (if any) from all nonproficiency and armor check penalties she takes (to a maximum of -0), as well as the penalty for using an improvised weapon (to a maximum of -0).

Disappear (Sp): A darkstalker is rarely seen by her foe. She can, with just a thought, completely vanish from sight. As a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the darkstalker may cast swift invisibility (Spell Compendium) as a spell-like ability. She may use this ability once per day per class level.

Strike from Shadows (Ex): While she is hidden, a darkstalker may not hold back. She can deliver the most powerful blows she can muster without fear of retribution. Against a creature who is flat-footed or otherwise denied their Dexterity modifier to AC, a darkstalker deals an additional +1d8 points of damage. This is not precision damage, and creatures immune to Sneak Attack are not immune to Strike from Shadows. Unlike precision damage, Strike from Shadows may be delivered from any range, as it does not rely on a weak point of the enemy, but rather the extra force the darkstalker is able to put behind her attack. A darkstalker may deliver her Strike from Shadows with a weaponlike spell, so long as that spell deals damage to a flat-footed creature.

This damage increases by +1d8 at every odd level, to a maximum of +10d8 at 19th level.

Stealth Mastery (Ex): A darkstalker may rely on her pact with the shadows to defeat foes, but that doesn't mean she's incompetent. Beginning at 2nd level, a darkstalker receives a +1 perfection bonus per class level to her Hide and Move Silently checks, to a maximum of +20 at 20th level.

Eyes of the Dark (Ex): A darkstalker trains her eyes to allow her to see during the night, when her prey's guard is down. Also starting at 2nd level, a darkstalker gains Darkvision out to 60', or increases her existing darkvision by 30'.

Vanishing Act (Su): Starting at 3rd level, the darkstalker's Disappear ability now lasts for one minute per class level, or until she delivers an attack, rather than one round. It still requires only a swift action to cast.

Shrouded in Shadows (Sp): Darkness instills fear in men's hearts. And those who are afraid are easily slain. Starting at 4th level, the darkstalker's pact with the shadows allows her to call them to her aid. She may cast darkness as a spell-like ability at will, with a caster level equal to her class level.

Better to be Clever than Good (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, the darkstalker may add her Intelligence modifier to her attack rolls instead of her Strength or Dexterity modifier.

Darkstalker (Ex): At 6th level, the darkstalker gains Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) as a bonus feat.

Careful Shadows (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a darkstalker may shroud herself in shadows and obscure herself from a creature's attack. Creatures that attack her have a 5% miss chance per point of Intelligence bonus she has (if any). A creature with darkvision only suffers half of this miss chance, while a creature with the See in Darkness supernatural ability suffers no miss chance against her at all. This ability cannot provide more than a 50% miss chance. This miss chance does not stack with any other miss chance. This is a supernatural quality that can be resumed or suppressed as a free action.

Haunting Stalker (Su): Beginning at 7th level, when the darkstalker uses her Disappear ability, she may choose to shorten its duration to one round per level. If she does, the effect does not end when she attacks, and she remains invisible for the duration of the spell-like ability.

Shrouded in Darkness (Sp): At 8th level, the darkstalker's Shrouded in Shadows ability improves. She may now cast deeper darkness as a spell-like ability instead, at-will with a caster level equal to her class level.

Hunting Spider (Ex): A darkstalker is able to follow her prey wherever it goes, even to the highest mountaintop. Starting at level 8, the darkstalker may scale sheer surfaces, as if affected by the spider climb spell.

Better to be Clever than Strong (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the darkstalker may add her Intelligence modifier to her weapon damage rolls (including ranged weapon damage rolls) instead of her Strength modifier.

Eyes of the Stalker (Su): A darkstalker's skills allow her to use her shadow advantages in ways normal assassins never could. Beginning at 10th level, the darkstalker sees clearly in all darkness, even magical darkness such as deeper darkvision. She suffers no miss chance on her attacks against creatures shrouded in magical darkness.

Ally of the Dark (Ex): The power of the Plane of Shadows protects the darkstalker from detection. Beginning at 11th level, the darkstalker's Disappear ability may not be dispelled by invisibility purge, nor may it be ignored by see invisibility or true seeing. Additionally, starting at 11th level, the shadows conceal all magical auras the darkstalker would normally project while under the effects of Disappear, making her invisible to spells like detect magic and arcane sight. Her Disappear ability may be dispelled by dispel magic and spells like it other than invisibility purge, but the darkstalker treats her caster level of Disappear for the purposes of resisting dispels as equal to twice her class level.

Doppleganger (Su): At 12th level, the power of the darkstalker's Disappear ability increases even further. When the darkstalker uses her Disappear ability, she may choose to create an illusory copy of herself, as the mislead spell. In order to move the copy, she must concentrate, as if she had actually cast the spell. The DC for the saving throw to disbelieve (if the copy is interacted with) is 16+her Intelligence modifier. If the darkstalker chooses to modify her Disappear ability in this way, the duration of her invisibility drops to one round per class level, and she remains invisible even if she attacks. The doppelganger remains visible for the duration of her concentration, plus 3 additional rounds, before it disappears (she need not concentrate to maintain her invisibility).

Enervating Strike (Su): Starting at 13th level, when a darkstalker hits a creature who is flat-footed or otherwise denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, she may choose to inflict weakening shadows into them rather than extra damage. For each two die of Strike from Shadows she gives up, she bestows a single negative level on the creature she hit, up to a maximum of 2 negative levels per successful attack. A creature with negative levels equal to its HD dies. In 24 hours, the affected creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the darkstalker's class level+her Intelligence modifier) or the negative level changes to real level loss. A creature who is slain by these negative levels rises in 1d4 days as a free-willed shadow (instead of a wight).

Death Attack (Ex): Beginning at 14th level, a darkstalker may analyze her opponent and then strike when they least expect it. She must study her foe for 3 consecutive rounds, taking no action other than a single move action each round while she does so. After that, she must attack the creature within 3 rounds or the effect is lost. If she does attack within 3 rounds, and the creature is flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity modifier to AC, the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the darkstalker's class level+her Intelligence modifier) or die. At her option, the darkstalker may instead render a creature who fails its save paralyzed for one minute. If the creature succeeds its saving throw, it instead takes normal damage from the darkstalker's attack plus her Strike from Shadows ability, as normal.

Shadow Walk (Su): Beginning at 15th level, as a standard action, the darkstalker may teleport to any area of shadows or darkness she can see. The range limit for this ability is 100 ft, plus 10 ft per class level. A darkstalker may use this ability at will.

Abundant Step (Su): At 16th level, the darkstalker's Disappear ability improves yet again. When she uses her Disappear ability, she may choose to drop the duration to one round per class level. If she does so, she becomes ethereal, as the ethereal jaunt spell.

Shadow Step (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a darkstalker's footsteps are so light and soft that she is able to cross terrain without leaving a trace. A darkstalker never leaves tracks on the ground unless she wants to, and it is impossible to track her with the Track feat, as if she was under a continuous extraordinary pass without trace effect. Additionally, creatures take a -5 penalty to their Listen checks to detect the darkstalker's movements.

Offerings to the Shadows (Su): At 18th level, The Plane of Shadows has given the darkstalker a great amount of power, and begins to demand some in return. The darkstalker is more than happy to oblige. Whenever the darkstalker kills a creature with her Death Attack ability, Enervating Strike, or Strike from Shadows abilities, she may choose to offer its soul to her masters. The corpse must make a Will save, DC 10+1/2 the darkstalker's class level+the darkstalker's Intelligence modifier, or have its soul transported to the Plane of Shadows and imprisoned in a small gem, as the soul bind spell. She gains a +1 morale bonus to AC and all saving throws per 5 HD of the creature. These bonuses last for 1 hour. A darkstalker must successfully trap at least 200 HD worth of souls per year or lose all her spell-like and supernatural class features except Offerings to the Shadows until she has finished her quota.

Master of Stealth (Su): A 19th level darkstalker is able to see the truth of the world that is often shrouded in darkness or illusion, and reach out to grab it. The darkstalker gains a continuous true seeing effect, and can clearly see and attack creatures who are incorporeal. The darkstalker suffers no miss chance with her attacks against an incorporeal creature, as if it were a physical being. (This excludes mundane attacks. The incorporeal creature is still completely immune to non-magical weapon attacks by the darkstalker). This ability can be suppressed or resumed as a free action.

Shadow Stalker (Su): At 20th level, the darkstalker becomes a creature of pure shadow. Her type changes to elemental and she gains the Incorporeal and Extraplanar subtypes. Her home plane becomes the Plane of Shadows. The darkstalker's Master of Stealth ability also extends to grant her the ability to interact with the Material Plane as if she were a physical being, suffering no miss chance against a creature with her attacks and able to use any attack that relies on physical contact easily (though mundane attack still do not affect her, and non-force magical attacks suffer a 50% miss chance against her). An incorporeal darkstalker does not gain the benefit of the Careful Shadows class feature.

absolmorph
2012-01-13, 02:09 PM
A solid class overall, but there's one big problem I see.
Enervating Strike. They can easily drop a monster with negative levels in just a couple rounds. It gets worse when they get their third iterative attack, which lets them hit an enemy with up to 24 negative levels per turn (30 at level 19).

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 02:13 PM
A solid class overall, but there's one big problem I see.
Enervating Strike. They can easily drop a monster with negative levels in just a couple rounds. It gets worse when they get their third iterative attack, which lets them hit an enemy with up to 24 negative levels per turn (30 at level 19).

True. I'll put a cap of 5 levels per attack on it. Now it can still get up to 30 per round at level 19, if you're a Two-Weapon Fighter, but since dragons and other creatures have a ridiculous amount of hit dice (35 to 60 around CR 20) I think it's okay (since an archer or an einhander is still only dealing 15 negative levels per round)

Elfstone
2012-01-13, 02:54 PM
Very nice. Your rose to the occasion like a champion.

While I continue working on praise, I might add that with most negative level abilities granted by classes, the slain creature/s rise the next day as something. I would say a shadow would be most appropriate for this class. No need to have it under the PC's control (unless you think that fits thematically, in which case I would cap the max HD like a wizard creating undead. To me, this class seems more loner oriented, but you could spin it both ways) but have it be independent. Also, as a capstone the Offering to the Shadow Plane seems kind of.. I don't know... Late? Perhaps grant a small bonus every time a soul is offered successfully based on the HD? And maybe take a page from the twisted Djinn and instil a minimum per year? Not sure how you see the fluff working on that part.

Also, I absolutely LOVE the Better Clever than X series. Pure genius.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 03:10 PM
Very nice. Your rose to the occasion like a champion.

It was actually pretty fun to make a rogue that doesn't suck.



While I continue working on praise, I might add that with most negative level abilities granted by classes, the slain creature/s rise the next day as something. I would say a shadow would be most appropriate for this class. No need to have it under the PC's control (unless you think that fits thematically, in which case I would cap the max HD like a wizard creating undead. To me, this class seems more loner oriented, but you could spin it both ways) but have it be independent.


A creature slain by negative levels of any source rises as a wight, unless it comes back as something else, but okay. I'll make it come back as a shadow.



Also, as a capstone the Offering to the Shadow Plane seems kind of.. I don't know... Late? Perhaps grant a small bonus every time a soul is offered successfully based on the HD? And maybe take a page from the twisted Djinn and instil a minimum per year? Not sure how you see the fluff working on that part.


I did actually mean to put something like that in, but I guess I got distracted. Added a +1 morale bonus/5 HD of the slain creature to AC and all saves for 1 hour.



Also, I absolutely LOVE the Better Clever than X series. Pure genius.

Haha, nice pun. And yes, you can't have a Tier 2.5 class without SAD.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-13, 03:16 PM
Indeed, I agree that if the masters in the shadows demand the sacrifice, she should need to do it every so often. And I was actually waiting for the ability that lets him summon/create/control/whatever shadows (the enemy, not the lack of proper lighting). Also, it sort of bugs me a little that they don't get Uncanny Dodge or Trapfinding; these guys need to be unflankable and able to spot traps if you're aiming for Tier 2 (I think that was the request, anyways). Other than that, looks pretty good.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 03:19 PM
Indeed, I agree that if the masters in the shadows demand the sacrifice, she should need to do it every so often. And I was actually waiting for the ability that lets him summon/create/control/whatever shadows (the enemy, not the lack of proper lighting). Also, it sort of bugs me a little that they don't get Uncanny Dodge or Trapfinding; these guys need to be unflankable and able to spot traps if you're aiming for Tier 2 (I think that was the request, anyways). Other than that, looks pretty good.

They're unflankable by being invisible. As for spotting traps, they can still do that. Just not traps with a Search DC higher than 20. And they can still disarm any non-magical trap as well. The request was for as close to Tier 2 as possible stealth, not rogue. And I think I've hit the 2.5 mark that the kensei did, so I'm happy with it.

Edit: Added the minimum souls per year.

Steward
2012-01-13, 03:54 PM
Does it matter what kind of creature she offers? (Would the masters be OK with killing animals, vermin, etc. for the purposes of meeting the quota?)

Elfstone
2012-01-13, 03:57 PM
That is why you should make the requirement in HD like wish economy.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 04:03 PM
There we go. 200 HD, but it can be anything. (You'll have to kill a lot more humans than you would hydras or chimeras, though)

Steward
2012-01-13, 04:36 PM
Wow, I like it a lot better that way. I was thinking that a darkstalker who kills something incredible should make more progress than the jerk who squats in his basement and zaps twenty cockroaches or something.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 04:41 PM
Wow, I like it a lot better that way. I was thinking that a darkstalker who kills something incredible should make more progress than the jerk who squats in his basement and zaps twenty cockroaches or something.

Good, I'm glad to hear it. Yeah, Elfstone's idea was pretty good. 200 HD is a lot of animals, but you can easily just kill 10 dragons and be done with it too.

Elfstone
2012-01-13, 05:25 PM
I feel like having him become a native outsider with the shadow subtype would be fun. Infact he could gain the shadow template at 20th level and the current capstone could replace the level 18 ability..

Maybe that's a bad idea. I just don't feel like the current capstone is a reason to take all 20 levels.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 05:31 PM
I feel like having him become a native outsider with the shadow subtype would be fun. Infact he could gain the shadow template at 20th level and the current capstone could replace the level 18 ability..

Maybe that's a bad idea. I just don't feel like the current capstone is a reason to take all 20 levels.

I personally think that Abundant Step makes a fantastic argument for staying in the class til 16 at least, and Ghostly Stalker is just flavorful and for completeness.

If you don't think the ability to use a 9th level spell at-will that prevents a creature from resurrecting, not even with wish, miracle or true resurrection is a good capstone for an assassin, then I don't know what is.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-13, 06:03 PM
I didn't think it felt quite right either. It didn't feel stealthy enough. It's a very good ability, though. I didn't realize that was a 9th level spell.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 06:11 PM
I didn't think it felt quite right either. It didn't feel stealthy enough. It's a very good ability, though. I didn't realize that was a 9th level spell.

By 20th you can already turn invisible, greater invisible, mislead or ethereal jaunt 20 times per day as a swift action. Your presence is invisible to creatures with blindsight, blindsense, and tremorsense, as well as all forms of magical invisibility detection and magical aura detection. You also have a +40 bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks, and the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

I'm not sure how much more stealthy I could make him.

Morph Bark
2012-01-13, 06:35 PM
Better to be Clever than Skilled means that I can Tumble and Hide in Full Plate just as well as in anything else if I have an Int of 22 or more and I can use any weapon from Int 18 and up.

Perhaps a nerf needs to be in place on that? Some sort of limitation should be required here.

Amechra
2012-01-13, 06:36 PM
Needs Shadow Body (Assassin 4).

You know, so he can walk through walls?

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 06:42 PM
Needs Shadow Body (Assassin 4).

You know, so he can walk through walls?

Ethereal Jaunt already lets you walk through walls.


Better to be Clever than Skilled means that I can Tumble and Hide in Full Plate just as well as in anything else if I have an Int of 22 or more and I can use any weapon from Int 18 and up.

Perhaps a nerf needs to be in place on that? Some sort of limitation should be required here.

No, that was fully intentional. I always thought weapon proficiencies should be Int-based anyway. And I don't think it's too unbalanced. So you can use a different weapon, so what? It's a difference between 1d8 and 1d10/1d12 or whatever. Not that impressive.

As for ignoring ACPs, again, it's basically just letting you add your Int score to Str and Dex based checks, but only while you're wearing armor. How is that any better than Brains over Brawn? (It's not)

eftexar
2012-01-13, 07:57 PM
All in all, I like this class. But I am worried about some issues.

Strike from shadows is a massive amount of damage considering how much better this class is than the standard rogue. Not only that but is it isn't precision damage and, as (not) worded -unless I missed something-, can be multiplied on a critical. I would halve this damage to make it fair.

10 + int skill points!? I would say maybe 8 (or even 6 as that is still pushing it). I'm not aware of any class that grants more than 8.

Better to be clever than good/strong is something the rogue has needed for a long time. So a definite plus on that.

I would allow shrouded in darkness to just be used at will, because frankly 8 uses a day for a single ability might as well be and it really isn't that big of a deal.

Ally of the dark really seems ad-hoc, but is unfortunately necessary due to too many instant win spells. So a plus there.

I would consider, with enervating strike, making the negative levels go away after a certain point of time. I know how annoying they can get as a player, and if you haven't killed an opponent with that many there really isn't any purpose in leaving them there (re-occuring npcs will probably just be healed of them by your next encounter with them anyways).

Death Attack, as always, is underwhelming. At this point, I think it more viable to up my critical and add vorpal to my weapon or strangle my opponent. So many targets are immune to death effects at this point it isn't even funny (I myself often try to pick it up in some form or another just to avoid negative levels and permanent ability drain).

And while the capstone is cool, it really could be a pain depending on the play style and the DM.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 08:04 PM
All in all, I like this class. But I am worried about some issues.

Strike from shadows is a massive amount of damage considering how much better this class is than the standard rogue. Not only that but is it isn't precision damage and, as (not) worded -unless I missed something-, can be multiplied on a critical. I would halve this damage to make it fair.


Extra damage dice is never multiplied on a critical. Only extra damage. And why halve the damage? The only base class that gets +5d6 is the scout, and that's because it gets +5 AC as well. The rogue gets the damage easily, with flanking. This class has to be invisible and undetected to deal its extra damage. Plus, why should I "make it fair", when I'm clearly trying to be better than a rogue?



10 + int skill points!? I would say maybe 8 (or even 6 as that is still pushing it). I'm not aware of any class that grants more than 8.


With 27 skills as class skills, 10 + Int seemed appropriate. Yes, only the changeling rogue gets this many, but all the other Tier 2 classes have spells.



I would allow shrouded in darkness to just be used at will, because frankly 8 uses a day for a single ability might as well be and it really isn't that big of a deal.


Bardic music has class level uses per day as well. Still, the ability to cast deeper darkness itself isn't that big a deal, I suppose. Sure, I'll make it at-will.



I would consider, with enervating strike, making the negative levels go away after a certain point of time. I know how annoying they can get as a player, and if you haven't killed an opponent with that many there really isn't any purpose in leaving them there (re-occuring npcs will probably just be healed of them by your next encounter with them anyways).


If they result in actual level loss, they go away anyway (they just turn into actual level loss).



Death Attack, as always, is underwhelming. At this point, I think it more viable to up my critical and add vorpal to my weapon or strangle my opponent. So many targets are immune to death effects at this point it isn't even funny (I myself often try to pick it up in some form or another just to avoid negative levels and permanent ability drain).


That's fine. Just because a bunch of things are immune to it doesn't mean a save-or-die isn't welcome.



And while the capstone is cool, it really could be a pain depending on the play style and the DM.

Fair point, but it's really just about stopping people you kill from coming back.

Morph Bark
2012-01-13, 08:54 PM
As for ignoring ACPs, again, it's basically just letting you add your Int score to Str and Dex based checks, but only while you're wearing armor. How is that any better than Brains over Brawn? (It's not)

Thing is, since ACP also goes on your attack rolls if you're not proficient with them, this class basically ends up making you proficient with everything. But it appears you're shooting for Tier 2 here, so then it's no biggie.

Elfstone
2012-01-13, 09:45 PM
I requested Tier one actually, but this is beyond expectations.

I see what your saying, but Barghest's Feast does almost the same thing as Soul Bind, except its a level 6 spell and removes the body entirely. The gem is also destroyed, so no DM can make up some quest to get the soul back. The only draw back is that with a good roll you can bring the person back. However if you do it right, you can pump that to unreachable numbers.

Im not trying to insult what you have done by any stretch of the imagination. I am mearly in love with the shadow template and the amazing benefits of the outsider(native) subtype. Perhaps an ACF to grant that instead?

Elfstone
2012-01-13, 09:58 PM
Also, since this deserves its own post, my praise.


Seraphi Homebrew(TM) is simply incredible. Every thread has you at the title, caught and forced to read the OP thoroughly. Its creativity, ingenuity, and sheer audaciousness is awe inspiring. Each work a masterpiece, every key stroke perfect, every wording complete and without loopholes. Few rival Neo’s depth and number of brews, all of them created with the same passion. Without a doubt, Seraphi is a master of his trade. If you have a chance to play any of his classes, I would be befuddled as to why you would not. If I ever post any homebrew, I hope it will be half as good as any of his.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 10:03 PM
Problem is, I don't have the MM2, or Tome of Magic (Can't remember which one has the Shadow Template in it), and I don't add stuff to my homebrew if I haven't examined it firsthand.

TravelLog
2012-01-13, 10:21 PM
Problem is, I don't have the MM2, or Tome of Magic (Can't remember which one has the Shadow Template in it), and I don't add stuff to my homebrew if I haven't examined it firsthand.

Y U NO have Tome of Magic? The Binder is easily my favorite class in terms of fluff. Arguably, it's my favorite class, regardless of power level. I highly recommend you get Tome of Magic.

Elfstone
2012-01-13, 10:23 PM
Incase Travel was unclear, it is indeed inside the Tome of Magic.

Its ironic... MMII was the only book I did not have for some time.

Also, I would be delighted to explain to you the shadow subtype and template for use in monsters and PC's if you would like.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 10:30 PM
Y U NO have Tome of Magic? The Binder is easily my favorite class in terms of fluff. Arguably, it's my favorite class, regardless of power level. I highly recommend you get Tome of Magic.

Because crappy mechanics and editing tend to cause large blackouts in my memory. I wake up all of a sudden with a five hour gap in my memory, then I log into GitP and there's 10 new homebrews with my name on them posted.



Also, I would be delighted to explain to you the shadow subtype and template for use in monsters and PC's if you would like.

Sure, PM it to me then, please.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 11:05 PM
Alright, got rid of Ghostly Stalker, pushed Offering to the Shadows back to 18th level, and added Shadow Stalker as the new capstone.

Amechra
2012-01-13, 11:19 PM
You know what this is really missin'?

The Void subtype. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20031219a)

*Note: This is my opinion, from a flavor standpoint, and is actually useless after a certain point in the class.*

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-13, 11:24 PM
Yikes. That's really nice. The ability to stay invisible all the time would let you save your Disappear ability for Abundant Step. I'm gonna add that, thanks Amechra.

Elfstone
2012-01-14, 12:27 AM
Void can get broken, but I love it anyway.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-01-14, 05:33 AM
It seems like the void template kind of supercedes the shadow template. The void gives you at will invisibility and evasion. The all I would use it for is the regeneration ability at that point.

*disclaimer: I'm not good at the crunch part of homebrew and probably missed something. I'm mostly just posting to see if there's an explantion that I most likely missed.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-14, 09:24 AM
The shadow template gives you Hide in Plain Sight, which is far superior to at-will invisibility, considering you have a +48 bonus to your Hide checks by level 20, +71 if you put full ranks in it.

The void subtype ability is far worse than the Disappear ability, since it does not mask you from true seeing, nor does it let you become ethereal. The ability to do it at-will is nice though. Like Amechra said, it's really just about flavor.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-01-14, 03:57 PM
Gotcha I figured that there was something I missed or wasn't paying attention to :smalltongue: I didn't know shadow gave you hide in plain sight, and I figured out the part about true seeing a little to late :smalleek:

Wyntonian
2012-01-14, 05:31 PM
Can haz dipz? Swift invisibility at-will level 1? And not precision-damage that activates every time you use it? Wow, sounds like something my fighter/warblade/whatever would LOVE!

I do really like this class, but it's a little front-loaded and really, really powerful. Like, I'd say even more so than the Kensei. Just be aware of that.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-14, 05:41 PM
Can haz dipz? Swift invisibility at-will level 1? And not precision-damage that activates every time you use it? Wow, sounds like something my fighter/warblade/whatever would LOVE!

I do really like this class, but it's a little front-loaded and really, really powerful. Like, I'd say even more so than the Kensei. Just be aware of that.

Swift invisibility once per day per class level at level 1.

Edit: I see the problem, I put the limitation in the fluff text part of the ability, not the crunch. Cleaned it up a bit to make it easier on the skimmer. :smallwink:

Wyntonian
2012-01-14, 06:10 PM
...I am made of dumb. Going to go complain that wizards have too many spells and that fighters are overpowered in the 3.5 forum, now...

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-14, 06:17 PM
...I am made of dumb. Going to go complain that wizards have too many spells and that fighters are overpowered in the 3.5 forum, now...

Oh no you don't! You get back here and you PEACH the entire class properly!

Elfstone
2012-01-14, 06:58 PM
...I am made of dumb. Going to go complain that wizards have too many spells and that fighters are overpowered in the 3.5 forum, now...

I think we have a name for that....

But I am thinking the Kensai would still beat one of these bad boys in a 1 on 1.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-14, 11:28 PM
I think we have a name for that....

But I am thinking the Kensai would still beat one of these bad boys in a 1 on 1.

Technically, a darkstalker could just HiPS in a tree somewhere and pelt the kensei with arrows that deal 5 negative levels and +5d8 damage til he dies. Since there's no range limit and you're always denied your Dex bonus to AC against invisible attackers, the kensei would be defenseless.

Wyntonian
2012-01-18, 07:10 PM
HD: d8
Class Skills: The darkstalker's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points: 10+Int per level (x4 at first level)

Eh, looks good. If I were to remove a skill, it would be UPD. If I were to add one, it would be Know (Planes).


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A darkstalker is proficient with all simple weapons, plus all straight bows, the rapier, the kukri, the shortsword, and the longsword. She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

*Shrug*, looks good, Kukri's are a nice touch. Does "all straight bows" count greatbows, splatbook bows, whatever, as long as they're not crossbows? (But they already have crossbows from simple weapons...) Yeah, the fact that I had to give this a bit of thought and some raised eyebrows says you might want to reword it. Maybe specify long-, short- and greatbows?


Better to be Clever than Skilled (Ex): A darkstalker's ingenuity allows her to improvise with weapons she is unfamiliar with more easily, as well as move more easily in clunky armor. She subtracts her Intelligence bonus (if any) from all nonproficiency and armor check penalties she takes (to a maximum of -0), as well as the penalty for using an improvised weapon (to a maximum of -0).


Want to wear full plate with no penalties? Get 22 int from reading books or something. Commence silent dance parties. I'm kinda ok with this, but.... I dunno. Is each item counted individually, or do they stack? Like, if I have half-plate and a tower shield, do I need a +17 to even out the -17, or do I need a +10 for the tower shield, which, when applied separately, also works for my armor?

I just don't get why being smarter makes it easier to hit someone with a bottle while you're carrying a tower shield you've never trained with.


Disappear (Sp): A darkstalker is rarely seen by her foe. She can, with just a thought, completely vanish from sight. As a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the darkstalker may cast swift invisibility (Spell Compendium) as a spell-like ability. She may use this ability once per day per class level.

Looks ok now that I get it :smalltongue:. If I use it continuously for 20 rounds, do I flicker back into vision for the time it takes me to use a swift action, or is it continuous?


Strike from Shadows (Ex): While she is hidden, a darkstalker may not hold back. She can deliver the most powerful blows she can muster without fear of retribution. Against a creature who is flat-footed or otherwise denied their Dexterity modifier to AC, a darkstalker deals an additional +1d8 points of damage. This is not precision damage, and creatures immune to Sneak Attack are not immune to Strike from Shadows. Unlike precision damage, Strike from Shadows may be delivered from any range, as it does not rely on a weak point of the enemy, but rather the extra force the darkstalker is able to put behind her attack. A darkstalker may deliver her Strike from Shadows with a weaponlike spell, so long as that spell deals damage to a flat-footed creature.

This damage increases by +1d8 at every odd level, to a maximum of +10d8 at 19th level.

Mmmmmmkay. Seems legit.


Stealth Mastery (Ex): A darkstalker may rely on her pact with the shadows to defeat foes, but that doesn't mean she's incompetent. Beginning at 2nd level, a darkstalker receives a +2 perfection bonus per class level to her Hide and Move Silently checks, to a maximum of +40 at 20th level.


Yeah, you're making every check you could really want to, once you count ranks and ability mods. Frees up your resources for other things, I guess. This is powerful, but not too extremely so.


Eyes of the Dark (Ex): A darkstalker trains her eyes to allow her to see during the night, when her prey's guard is down. Also starting at 2nd level, a darkstalker gains Darkvision out to 60', or increases her existing darkvision by 30'.


To be expected. 'Kay.



Vanishing Act (Su): Starting at 3rd level, the darkstalker's Disappear ability now lasts for one minute per class level, or until she delivers an attack, rather than one round. It still requires only a swift action to cast.


Looks good. Glad it goes off when you attack. Three minutes of invisibility at level 3 is a lot, especially with those ranks/bonuses in move silently. I'd expect a +15 to move silently by now, not counting ability mods or gear. Welcome to being undetectable.


Shrouded in Shadows (Sp): Darkness instills fear in men's hearts. And those who are afraid are easily slain. Starting at 4th level, the darkstalker's pact with the shadows allows her to call them to her aid. She may cast darkness as a spell-like ability at will, with a caster level equal to her class level.

So, miss chance, penalty to spot. I'm sure this will synergize well with later stuff.


Better to be Clever than Good (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, the darkstalker may add her Intelligence modifier to her attack rolls instead of her Strength or Dexterity modifier.


Ok, seems fine.


Darkstalker (Ex): At 6th level, the darkstalker gains Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) as a bonus feat.

Is this the one that lets you hide from blindsight and whatever? I don't have that book.


Careful Shadows (Su): Beginning at 6th level, a darkstalker may shroud herself in shadows and obscure herself from a creature's attack. Creatures that attack her have a 5% miss chance per point of Intelligence bonus she has (if any). A creature with darkvision only suffers half of this miss chance, while a creature with the See in Darkness supernatural ability suffers no miss chance against her at all. This ability cannot provide more than a 50% miss chance.

Until I saw the cap, I was all like :smalleek:. Would this stack with the 20% from at-will darkness?


Haunting Stalker (Su): Beginning at 7th level, when the darkstalker uses her Disappear ability, she may choose to shorten its duration to one round per level. If she does, the effect does not end when she attacks, and she remains invisible for the duration of the spell-like ability.

Good good. About at the right level, too.


Shrouded in Darkness (Sp): At 8th level, the darkstalker's Shrouded in Shadows ability improves. She may now cast deeper darkness as a spell-like ability instead, at-will with a caster level equal to her class level.

You know this lasts 1 day/level, right? More than a week when you get it, almost 3 at 20th? At-will? This guy has a toolbox, all right.


Better to be Clever than Strong (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the darkstalker may add her Intelligence modifier to her weapon damage rolls (including ranged weapon damage rolls) instead of her Strength modifier.


Nice toy, at this point. Shaping up to be pretty dang SAD.

Eyes of the Stalker (Su): A darkstalker's skills allow her to use her shadow advantages in ways normal assassins never could. Beginning at 10th level, the darkstalker sees clearly in all darkness, even magical darkness such as deeper darkvision. She suffers no miss chance on her attacks against creatures shrouded in magical darkness.

Ok, this seems legit, but you already have a miss chance bonus. This lets you hit without penalty at things that have huge miss chances against you. With your full plate that your 1st level ability lets you wear by now without penalty. And your decent hit dice. I feel like you're stacking too many good things at this point.


Ally of the Dark (Ex): The power of the Plane of Shadows protects the darkstalker from detection. Beginning at 11th level, the darkstalker's Disappear ability may not be dispelled by dispel magic, greater dispel magic, or invisibility purge, nor may it be ignored by see invisibility or true seeing. Additionally, starting at 11th level, the shadows conceal all magical auras the darkstalker would normally project while under the effects of Disappear, making her invisible to spells like detect magic and arcane sight.

So, now you're not only good, but you're immune to NO-buttons. Not inherently bad, but you have a lot of things that really need SOME way to be limited. Maybe make it a stone-cold bitch to dispel your layers to invisibility? I dunno, but this seems like a lot.


Doppleganger (Su): At 12th level, the power of the darkstalker's Disappear ability increases even further. When the darkstalker uses her Disappear ability, she may choose to create an illusory copy of herself, as the mislead spell. In order to move the copy, she must concentrate, as if she had actually cast the spell. The DC for the saving throw to disbelieve (if the copy is interacted with) is 16+her Intelligence modifier. If the darkstalker chooses to modify her Disappear ability in this way, the duration of her invisibility drops to one round per class level, and she remains invisible even if she attacks. The doppelganger remains visible for the duration of her concentration, plus 3 additional rounds, before it disappears (she need not concentrate to maintain her invisibility).


It's ok, I guess, but again, it can't be touched by anyone trying to say NO. I like that it drops the duration, though.


Enervating Strike (Su): Starting at 13th level, when a darkstalker hits a creature who is flat-footed or otherwise denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, she may choose to inflict weakening shadows into them rather than extra damage. For each dice of Strike from Shadows she gives up, she bestows a single negative level on the creature she hit, up to a maximum of 5 negative levels per successful attack. A creature with negative levels equal to its HD dies. In 24 hours, the affected creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the darkstalker's class level+her Intelligence modifier) or the negative level changes to real level loss. A creature who is slain by these negative levels rises in 1d4 days as a free-willed shadow (instead of a wight).

Ooooohhhhhh, this is really powerful. Jeez... I'd make it a 2-to1 swap for dice to -levels.


Death Attack (Ex): Beginning at 14th level, a darkstalker may analyze her opponent and then strike when they least expect it. She must study her foe for 3 consecutive rounds, taking no action other than a single move action each round while she does so. After that, she must attack the creature within 3 rounds or the effect is lost. If she does attack within 3 rounds, and the creature is flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity modifier to AC, the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the darkstalker's class level+her Intelligence modifier) or die. At her option, the darkstalker may instead render a creature who fails its save paralyzed for one minute. If the creature succeeds its saving throw, it instead takes normal damage from the darkstalker's attack plus her Strike from Shadows ability, as normal.

Ok, sure. Nothing to bad for this level, casters have been doing this for a while. Melee needs more SoD's.


Shadow Walk (Su): Beginning at 15th level, as a standard action, the darkstalker may teleport to any area of shadows or darkness she can see. The range limit for this ability is 100 ft, plus 10 ft per class level. A darkstalker may use this ability at will.


Maybe 1/day/class level? It'd be a token limit, if nothing else. This prevents sprinting across the nighttime countryside at 41.666... feet/sec.


Abundant Step (Su): At 16th level, the darkstalker's Disappear ability improves yet again. When she uses her Disappear ability, she may choose to drop the duration to one round per class level. If she does so, she becomes ethereal, as the ethereal jaunt spell.


Sure, give melee more toys. I genuinely approve. Seems apropos, too.


Creature of the Void (Su): At 17th level, the darkstalker gains the void subtype (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20031219a) and all benefits that come with it.

I'd say pick one of the templates, Shadow or Void.


Offerings to the Shadows (Su): At 18th level, The Plane of Shadows has given the darkstalker a great amount of power, and begins to demand some in return. The darkstalker is more than happy to oblige. Whenever the darkstalker kills a creature with her Death Attack ability, Enervating Strike, or Strike from Shadows abilities, she may choose to offer its soul to her masters. The corpse must make a Will save, DC 10+1/2 the darkstalker's class level+the darkstalker's Intelligence modifier, or have its soul transported to the Plane of Shadows and imprisoned in a small gem, as the soul bind spell. She gains a +1 morale bonus to AC and all saving throws per 5 HD of the creature. These bonuses last for 1 hour. A darkstalker must successfully trap at least 200 HD worth of souls per year or lose all her spell-like and supernatural class features except Offerings to the Shadows until she has finished her quota.

That's cute. Thematic, solid, makes sense... Do you need to supply the gem, or is it magically created?


Shadow Stalker (Su): At 20th level, the darkstalker becomes a creature of pure shadow. Her type changes to outsider, and she gains the (Native) Subtype. She gains the shadow template (Tome of Magic), though her home plane is treated as both The Plane of Shadows and the Material Plane (she does not gain the Extraplanar subtype while on the Material Plane). She gains all other benefits of the shadow template, but ignores the +1 Level Adjustment.


See above note. Shadow or void, I'd say, but not both. Also, the name of this ability.... Well... I get it....but....:smalleek:

Overall, I do like this class. But, I'd recommend that you couch this not as a "rogue fix" or the like, but as something more clearly magical. It's a good tier 3, even without spells. I like that it can put a good fight up against casters, with it's resistance to NO-buttons, but I feel like you might be falling into a trap. See, casters are kickass because they hold the toys, and the ways to break other peoples toys. These guys have toys, but theirs can't be broken, even if they can't break others.

...

Does that make sense?

This is really good work. But this class operates in a different way than damn near every class I've even seen before, in to how they interact with other classes. If I'm displaying my utter lack of experience, tell be so. But, you asked to be critiqued, so I'm obliging.


I like it, though!! :smallsmile:

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-18, 07:50 PM
*Shrug*, looks good, Kukri's are a nice touch. Does "all straight bows" count greatbows, splatbook bows, whatever, as long as they're not crossbows? (But they already have crossbows from simple weapons...) Yeah, the fact that I had to give this a bit of thought and some raised eyebrows says you might want to reword it. Maybe specify long-, short- and greatbows?

Dunno. Guess I'll just make it short and longbows.


Want to wear full plate with no penalties? Get 22 int from reading books or something. Commence silent dance parties. I'm kinda ok with this, but.... I dunno. Is each item counted individually, or do they stack? Like, if I have half-plate and a tower shield, do I need a +17 to even out the -17, or do I need a +10 for the tower shield, which, when applied separately, also works for my armor?


It's applied separately. If you have -10 ACP from your tower shield and -7 from your half-plate, and 16 Int, you have a total of -11 ACP.


I just don't get why being smarter makes it easier to hit someone with a bottle while you're carrying a tower shield you've never trained with.


Take it up with the factotum. I gave the darkstalker Brains over Brawn, but only let it offset skill checks while wearing armor, and gave it a small boost by letting it work with improvised weapons.


Looks ok now that I get it . If I use it continuously for 20 rounds, do I flicker back into vision for the time it takes me to use a swift action, or is it continuous? :smalltongue:

It doesn't stay one round for very long, but yes, the duration does expire at the beginning of your turn, which means you do flicker back into view (and provoke Spot checks) before you are able to Disappear again.


Is this the one that lets you hide from blindsight and whatever? I don't have that book.

You don't have Lords of Madness? :smalleek: You must get it! Anyway, Darkstalker forces creatures with the scent, blindsense, blindsight, and tremorsense ability to make a Listen or Spot check to detect your presence instead of automatically detecting you (So yes, you get to Hide and Move Silently from them). It also (for some weird reason) lets you flank creatures with the All-Around Vision ability. It's a pretty sweet feat.


Until I saw the cap, I was all like . Would this stack with the 20% from at-will darkness? No. It does grant you concealment though, which means you can make Hide checks without cover (but if you do it out in the open you're just hiding in a shadow that's standing there) It helps snipers though.


You know this lasts 1 day/level, right? More than a week when you get it, almost 3 at 20th? At-will? This guy has a toolbox, all right.

I...did not know that, no. I had it at 1/day/level, but someone else just suggested it be at-will.



Ok, this seems legit, but you already have a miss chance bonus. This lets you hit without penalty at things that have huge miss chances against you. With your full plate that your 1st level ability lets you wear by now without penalty. And your decent hit dice. I feel like you're stacking too many good things at this point.

...Assuming you have 26 Int at 10th level, yes. I don't think I've ever optimized quite that much.


So, now you're not only good, but you're immune to NO-buttons. Not inherently bad, but you have a lot of things that really need SOME way to be limited. Maybe make it a stone-cold ***** to dispel your layers to invisibility? I dunno, but this seems like a lot.

Sure, I guess I'll allow dispel/greater dispel, but treat the darkstalker's caster level as twice his class level. That's definitely a "stone-cold *****" to dispel.


Ooooohhhhhh, this is really powerful. Jeez... I'd make it a 2-to1 swap for dice to -levels.

Good point. Since I'm already capping it at 5, it'd just be easier to make it 2-to-1.


It's ok, I guess, but again, it can't be touched by anyone trying to say NO. I like that it drops the duration, though.

Oh nooooo! Someone might actually have to disbelieve the illusion at high levels, rather than having a single spell render the entire school useless! :smallsigh: Seriously, this is what 3.5 has been reduced to. Protecting your abilities from being arbitrarily ignored by a mid-level caster is "unfair".



Ok, sure. Nothing to bad for this level, casters have been doing this for a while. Melee needs more SoD's.

Melee? :smallbiggrin: Whose being melee here? I took that shot from 100 feet away with my longbow in a tree!


Maybe 1/day/class level? It'd be a token limit, if nothing else. This prevents sprinting across the nighttime countryside at 41.666... feet/sec.

Hmm...alright.


That's cute. Thematic, solid, makes sense... Do you need to supply the gem, or is it magically created?

Nah, your almighty Shadow Overlords have their own Soul Gems.


Overall, I do like this class. But, I'd recommend that you couch this not as a "rogue fix" or the like, but as something more clearly magical. It's a good tier 3, even without spells. I like that it can put a good fight up against casters, with it's resistance to NO-buttons, but I feel like you might be falling into a trap. See, casters are kickass because they hold the toys, and the ways to break other peoples toys. These guys have toys, but theirs can't be broken, even if they can't break others.

It's not a rogue fix, it's just supposed to be a stealthy character that gets as close to Tier 2 as it can without spellcasting progression. If I want sneaking to be relevant at all levels, it should be able to sneak past anyone.

Thing is, even if you're invisible, you can still be Spotted by a creature with insane ranks and high Wisdom, and it doesn't grant you a bonus to Move Silently. Sure, you get +40 to your Move Silently checks from the class, but you can still get caught if someone is actively optimizing to catch characters. (Since your entire class is built around sneaking, only a character who optimizes Tracking should be able to find you, not a character who took a few otherwise decent spells)

Thanks for the critique though, you were a big help :smallbiggrin:

Elfstone
2012-01-18, 07:55 PM
I see where your coming from, but I disagree about the "toys" section because everything nice a Rogue has, someone else can do it better or their toys are broken 90% of the time. Its not hard to get Uncanny dodge, and only slightly harder to get Improved Uncanny dodge. Also remember that the Fortification line of armor enchantments also deny rogues their shtick. Then there are the numerous enemies that are naturally immune to tricks(yes WotC made a few provisions to take those tricks back, but only for 50% of cases). And its much easier to be a skill monkey when you have a decent SP per level with a massive int bonus.

So having toys that can not be broken is not a bad thing in this case, because until now, they toys have always been broken.

And this class still cant do the really fun Wizard stuff, like go ethereal.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-18, 07:57 PM
And this class still cant do the really fun Wizard stuff, like go ethereal.

:smalleek:


Abundant Step

Elfstone, you wound me!

Elfstone
2012-01-18, 08:59 PM
:smalleek:



Elfstone, you wound me!

I knew that!.. I was testing you.

:smallsigh:

What I meant was, this class can't stop time and cast three rounds worth of spells like a wizard can.:smalltongue:

Dragon Star
2012-01-18, 10:22 PM
...Assuming you have 26 Int at 10th level, yes. I don't think I've ever optimized quite that much.


...What? You can get 26 in any ability score, pretty easily, by level 8. Earlier, even. Seriously, 18 base, +2 racial, +2 for 8 class levels, +4 item. On a class as int based as this, almost everyone will have 26 by 10th level. Not just heavy optimizers, but anyone who has got past the "fighters are OP and wizards don't get enough spells" phase.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-18, 11:18 PM
...What? You can get 26 in any ability score, pretty easily, by level 8. Earlier, even. Seriously, 18 base, +2 racial, +2 for 8 class levels, +4 item. On a class as int based as this, almost everyone will have 26 by 10th level. Not just heavy optimizers, but anyone who has got past the "fighters are OP and wizards don't get enough spells" phase.

Ah, but the only LA 0 races who get an Int bonus are elves, and I don't play elves. Ever. Seriously, you can't claim someone isn't "heavy optimizing" if they're taking a race with an Int bonus, since there aren't any in the PHB (splatbook-diving/MM diving for a subrace just to grab an extra racial boost is optimization, even if it's not "heavy). The only Int-boosting races I can think of that are LA 0 are grey elf and fire elf, and they're both elves.

Also, your analysis assumes a magic mart. So no, not "almost everyone" will have a 26 Int by 10th level.

Even so, a heavy optimizer would have gotten mithral chain plate anyway, because they have room for the Dex (especially since they'd be playing an elf for the Int bonus) and they want the maximum mobility. Just because you can get -0 ACP while wearing full plate doesn't mean you should wear full plate, especially since you have 40% concealment with that 26 Int by level 10 anyway.

Dragon Star
2012-01-19, 12:19 AM
Yeah, you're probably right. I've been playing Pathfinder for a few months, so I tend to get some things mixed up (like core elves not getting an Int bonus). And as for the magic mart, that is pretty settin specific, but it is true that most players are not going to blow half their gold on the stat boosting item. It was just the "tone" you used implied that you were a horrible munchkin if you had anywhere near that power level, which is generally not true. Also, speaking as someone who recently made a dwarf fighter with 26 Str at level 5, I am a little biased on the subject.

Knight13
2012-01-20, 12:38 PM
Maybe 1/day/class level? It'd be a token limit, if nothing else. This prevents sprinting across the nighttime countryside at 41.666... feet/sec.
Why exactly would this class having a fast travel ability at level 15 be bad? It's not like he's going to get there before a Teleporting Wizard or a Wind Walking Cleric or Druid.

Demidos
2012-01-20, 08:33 PM
I dont really see a reason for such a huge bonus to hide and move silently. I think you could probably cover it fine with just a +1/level. As is, without putting ranks in it, they can hide from someone (admittedly with a 10 wisdom) who maxxed ranks in a class skill (spot) at level 20. the person would have to roll a 17 to see them!! Without any ranks invested on the assasins part, that is. If the opposite character is optomized for sight, theres no need to say "you cant see this class becuase its too awesome". If they went to the trouble of optomizing for sight and you didnt bother putting ANY ranks into hide, especially with 10+important stat/level, I dont see why

I'd also say the negative levels go a bit overboard. With any sort of haste effect or anything, thats 20 negative levels at lvl 20, plus large amounts of damage. This is, of course, assuming you hit them on all your attacks, but its still rather ridiculous. I think at least making it cost 2 dice of damage per negative level would be far more balanced. I mean, seriously, its a question of "would I prefer to deal 4.5 more damage, or drop them a level so they lose
-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.: (quoted from the srd)

Its not really a contest..

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-20, 11:01 PM
Okay, changed the bonuses to Hide and Move Silently to +1/level each, and the negative levels to 1/2 die of damage.

Demidos
2012-01-21, 01:46 AM
Okay, changed the bonuses to Hide and Move Silently to +1/level each, and the negative levels to 1/2 die of damage.

Cool. I have to say, I love this class. I really need to set up a gestalt campaign and play the assasin of doom :smallbiggrin:

absolmorph
2012-01-21, 02:34 AM
Cool. I have to say, I love this class. I really need to set up a gestalt campaign and play the assasin of doom :smallbiggrin:
It may say something about my mind that my initial thought on this was that it would be pretty awesome to have a character whose motivation is to assassinate Dr. Doom.

Demidos
2012-01-21, 03:06 AM
It may say something about my mind that my initial thought on this was that it would be pretty awesome to have a character whose motivation is to assassinate Dr. Doom.

:smalltongue:
Not doom literally :smalltongue:

(more critiquing so i dont randomly clutter this thread)
If you actually were shooting for tier 2, you could probably give this class full bab. Its not necessary or anything, just a thought. Its fine on power as is.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-21, 03:14 AM
(more critiquing so i dont randomly clutter this thread)
If you actually were shooting for tier 2, you could probably give this class full bab. Its not necessary or anything, just a thought. Its fine on power as is.

Thanks for the suggestion, but more BAB won't push it any closer to Tier 2 than it already is. It's not quite versatile enough to be Tier 2, but its certainly more than a match for any existing Tier 3. I'm happy with that.

Elfstone
2012-01-21, 01:04 PM
The only way to give this class more options would be to offer Maneuvers or some sort of equivalent class feature like most of the other fixes that try and improve an archetype. Or spellcasting. But thats no fun, I wanted non magical. :smallbiggrin:

I like that this is still getting suggestions/complements.

Dragon Star
2012-01-21, 07:24 PM
Hmm...

I know this is a solitary assassin type class, but I feel like it would be cool if it could somehow hide others as well.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-01-21, 07:34 PM
Hmm...

I know this is a solitary assassin type class, but I feel like it would be cool if it could somehow hide others as well.

With enough ranks in hide you can hide someone else. Its not an easy check but with the free ranks from this class its entirely doable.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-21, 07:40 PM
Plus, deeper darkness can be cast on any object, and it's usable at will. Just cast it on someone's blade and they'll vanish from sight.

absolmorph
2012-01-21, 07:46 PM
Plus, deeper darkness can be cast on any object, and it's usable at will. Just cast it on someone's blade and they'll vanish from sight.
But if you're in a brightly lit area there's suddenly a 60-foot radius area of darkness.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-01-21, 08:08 PM
But if you're in a brightly lit area there's suddenly a 60-foot radius area of darkness.


With enough ranks in hide you can hide someone else. Its not an easy check but with the free ranks from this class its entirely doable.

Just checked the srd and I can't copy/paste from my phone but its -30 on your hide check and you have to be adjacent and unobserved. Like I said not easy but doable with this class. And if its something that needs two people to be sneaky then it should work at higher levels

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-30, 09:00 PM
Levels 17 and 19 looked a little light to me, so I padded them up a bit. What do you guys think?

Demidos
2012-01-30, 09:47 PM
Nice. :smallbiggrin:

Vixsor Lumin
2012-01-31, 12:46 AM
I like em :smallbiggrin: I have bookmarked this page because I want to play it so bad but don't have the opportunity at the moment.

Milo v3
2012-01-31, 08:29 AM
I love this class. Its a sneaky night dweller who has truly mastered his domain.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-10, 01:10 PM
I love this class. Its a sneaky night dweller who has truly mastered his domain.

Thank you, Milo. :smallbiggrin:

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-24, 03:24 PM
These abilities are all nice, but they're not quite enough for a real stealthy assassin type character. I'm thinking about adding in a continuous extraordinary spider climb effect, as well as flight. What do you guys think, and what levels would you suggest putting them in?

Wyntonian
2012-02-24, 03:42 PM
I definitely approve of the Spider Climb thing, Flight is iffy, but eh, throw the mundane-ish guys a bone.

An idea: What about a variant that uses invocations? Warlocks have some abilities that really fit this class well, like Spider Climb, the flight one, the fog cloud-analogue, and that's just off the top of my head.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-24, 03:51 PM
I definitely approve of the Spider Climb thing, Flight is iffy, but eh, throw the mundane-ish guys a bone.

Mundane-ish? :smalltongue: I have created a whole new character archetype! I, Seraphi, have single-handedly made a character who is neither spellcaster nor mundane! He is...the darkstalker!



An idea: What about a variant that uses invocations? Warlocks have some abilities that really fit this class well, like Spider Climb, the flight one, the fog cloud-analogue, and that's just off the top of my head.

Indeed, and dragonfire adepts are already able to turn invisible at-will with Walk Unseen (brooooooken).

A variation that uses invocations would be an...interesting power-down to this class (Invocations are affected by arcane spell failure). If I replaced Disappear with Walk Unseen (making it at-will but requiring a standard action to use and having it penalized by ASF), and added a few other utility stealth-based invocations to replace some of the abilities, then I think the darkstalker would become a solid tier 3 stealth character, a true replacement for the rogue and a nice alternative to a factotum.

Still, I am waaaaaaaaaay too lazy to do something like that. :smallamused:

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-24, 04:13 PM
Added Hunting Spider at 8th level

Vixsor Lumin
2012-02-24, 04:58 PM
This is my favorite of homebrewed class of all time, and I love Seraphi Homebrew!

Feel free to add me to your fan club :smallwink:

Now that that's out of the way I think the spider climb ability meshes really well with this character and I think 8th level was a good place to put it. As for flight, it doesn't seem to fit. At least not until after the void template comes online. Then he's no longer entirely mortal so making wings of shadow appear isn't much of a stretch

Elfstone
2012-02-24, 05:18 PM
Almost every DM I have talked to about this class has had a huge problem with Enervating strike. Perhaps tone it down slightly?

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-24, 05:27 PM
Almost every DM I have talked to about this class has had a huge problem with Enervating strike. Perhaps tone it down slightly?

Have you offered to just...let it be a dead level? :smallconfused:

Well, I guess I can reduce it to just -4d8, +2 negative levels. Basically changes it to a vampire's energy drain attack, except with any weapon and you can do it with every attack as long as you're unseen.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-25, 11:47 AM
This is my favorite of homebrewed class of all time, and I love Seraphi Homebrew!

Feel free to add me to your fan club :smallwink:

Done, thank you. Feel free to check out my signature and see if there are any other classes you like. :smallbiggrin:



Now that that's out of the way I think the spider climb ability meshes really well with this character and I think 8th level was a good place to put it. As for flight, it doesn't seem to fit. At least not until after the void template comes online. Then he's no longer entirely mortal so making wings of shadow appear isn't much of a stretch

Yeah, I decided against flight. I dunno if you noticed though, but I removed the void template from the class ages ago, I replaced it with Shadow Walk.

Also, I'm giving him K(Planes) as a class skill. Makes sense, Plane of Shadows and all that.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-02-25, 03:06 PM
Oops >.< missed that bit haha but I think taking it out was a good idea. I know I was shown earlier in this very thread that it didn't overly improve the class and was more for flavor, but getting two templates always seemed a bit much to me.

I feel like flight could be added on to this class but it would like just that, added on. the Hunting Spider ability blends very nicely and allows for some awesome visuals and mechanics (shooting arrows from the dark corner of the ceiling out of harms way? Yes please!) Unfortuantely I don't have much to add in the way of improvement, because I've never given more than a cursory thought to making my own brew.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-03-03, 03:45 AM
I just applyed for an evil campaign and asked to be a Darkstalker. Unfortunately my DM said it was OP for a base class >.< so I hate to ask this but could you make me a 5 or 10 level Prc? I understand if you don't want to

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-03, 11:07 AM
The Darkstalker

Prerequisites: In order to become a darkstalker, you must meet the following prerequisites:

Skills: Hide 9 ranks, Move Silently 9 ranks
Special: Ghost Step (Invisible), Sudden Strike +3d6, Ki Dodge

HD: Same as Darkstalker
Class Skills: Same as Darkstalker
Skill Points: Same as Darkstalker

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Disappear, Strike from Shadows +1d8

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Shrouded in Shadows

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Vanishing Act, Strike from Shadows +2d8

4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Careful Shadows

5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Shrouded in Darkness, Strike from Shadows +3d8

6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Hunting Spider

7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Ally of the Dark, Strike from Shadows +4d8

8th|+6|+2|+6|+6|Doppelganger

9th|+6|+3|+6|+6|Death Attack, Strike from Shadows +5d8

10th|+7|+3|+7|+7|Abundant Step
[/table]

Class Features: All of the following are class features of the Darkstalker.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A darkstalker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.

Disappear (Sp): A darkstalker's ghost step ability is replaced by the Disappear ability. This functions exactly the same as the darkstalker ability of the same name, except that it can be used once per day per character level, and no longer requires any ki.

Careful Shadows (Su): The darkstalker's ki dodge ability is replaced by the Careful Shadows ability. This functions exactly the same as the darkstalker ability of the same name, except that it uses the prestige darkstalker's Wisdom modifier rather than his Intelligence modifier. It can be resumed or suppressed at will, and no longer requires any ki.

DeusMortuusEst
2012-03-05, 12:21 PM
Shadow Stalker (Su): At 20th level, the darkstalker becomes a creature of pure shadow. Her type changes to outsider, and she gains the (Native) Subtype. She gains the shadow template (Tome of Magic), though her home plane is treated as both The Plane of Shadows and the Material Plane (she does not gain the Extraplanar subtype while on the Material Plane). She gains all other benefits of the shadow template, but ignores the +1 Level Adjustment.

Do you mean the dark template? There isn't a shadow template in ToM afaik :smallsmile:

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-05, 12:23 PM
Do you mean the dark template? There isn't a shadow template in ToM afaik :smallsmile:

Nope, I mean the Shadow Template. It's definitely in Tome of Magic.

Steward
2012-03-05, 02:24 PM
Which chapter is it in, Neo? I thought it was the Shadowcaster chapter but that one only has the Dark template.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-05, 02:28 PM
Which chapter is it in, Neo? I thought it was the Shadowcaster chapter but that one only has the Dark template.

I'm pretty sure its in the chapter about Monsters. I don't actually possess the Tome of Magic, but Elfstone was getting on my case about adding it in and showed me the excerpt and it was definitely Shadow.

Steward
2012-03-05, 07:40 PM
Ah, I found it. It actually is called the Dark template in the Tome of Magic book, but there's a tiny little footnote / box thing in the corner that says this:


The dark template is designed to be simple and flavorful. You
can easily apply it on the fly to add shadow-based creatures
to the campaign. It’s a simple, streamlined version of the
shadow creature template (see Manual of the Planes page 190
and Lords of Madness page 167).

Huzzah, vindication! Tome of Magic calls it the dark template, but it's based on another template found in two other books that I don't have!

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-19, 12:02 PM
Ah, I found it. It actually is called the Dark template in the Tome of Magic book, but there's a tiny little footnote / box thing in the corner that says this:



Huzzah, vindication! Tome of Magic calls it the dark template, but it's based on another template found in two other books that I don't have!

Wow, I like that much better! I'm going to change this class to grant the shadow template from Lords of Madness instead, so thanks for the advice.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-03-19, 01:15 PM
I'm playing this class in a PbP (as you know) and I think its about to see its first taste of combat! I'm so excited to pepper the baddies with arrows from out of their view

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-19, 01:16 PM
I'm playing this class in a PbP (as you know) and I think its about to see its first taste of combat! I'm so excited to pepper the baddies with arrows from out of their view

Good luck! Don't forget to spam Disappear and drive your DM crazy (until he starts throwing casters at you, then you just have to Hide until level 11)

Vixsor Lumin
2012-03-19, 01:18 PM
Oh don't worry, they won't even be able to see their own noses let alone me :smallamused:

Person_Man
2012-03-27, 09:44 AM
Well done sir.

Excellent content. I intend to shamelessly steal (with your permission and proper credit given when the time comes) your best ideas for my future homebrew work.

My only quibbles are with the structure and pacing of the class.

In terms of structure, the Darkstalker has few options. Being a high tier class isn't just about being the most powerful uber charger, or the most impossible to find sneak, or the most untouchable controller. It's about having a list of options, and the ability to choose from that list (preferably on a daily or per encounter basis). A list of Talets, Powers, Spells, Soulmelds, Vestiges, etc. For example, a Wizard can wake up one morning and be a sneak, the next morning he can be a blaster, the next morning he can be a Summoner, and so on. A Darkstalker is locked into a single combat style (deny enemies their Dex, then hit them with a lot of attacks) and set of abilities. Even his Skills, which are turned up to 11, are locked in.

You may wish to look at the Binder, Incarnate, Pathfinder Rogue (or anything Pathfinder), or my homebrew Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-186505.html) for some alternative ways to structure class ability progression for a Skill Monkey.

In terms of pacing, you cram a lot of abilities into the first few levels, and then have an underwhelming 19th and 20th levels. 10 Skill Points per level with basically everything on the Skill list is essentially the same as 3ish bonus feats or class abilities. Tumble lets you avoid AoO, Spot/Listen means you're rarely Surprised, Hide/Move Silently lets you get Surprise rounds against others, and so on. On top of that, +1d8 bonus damage from Strike from Shadows is enough to kill most 1-2 hit die creatures, Better to be Clever than Skilled is an awesome ability that I wouldn't expect until 5th+ level, and Strike from Shadows duplicates a 2nd level spell.

Instead, you may wish to consider 8 Skill Points per level, 1d6 Strike from Shadows (which is still superior to Sneak Attack, because nothing is immune) progression, and one Darkstalker Talent (or whatever) every odd level. On the flip side, you may wish to consider True Seeing at 19th level instead of See Invisibility, or some variation of the Shadow Elemental type (Tome of Magic pg 164, permanent Incorporeal traits and Elemental traits) as a capstone.

Anywho, the above should be taken as a statement of my personal preferences, and not as a serious critique of your work. Again, well done.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-27, 10:08 AM
Well done sir.

Excellent content. I intend to shamelessly steal (with your permission and proper credit given when the time comes) your best ideas for my future homebrew work.

Thank you very much. :smallsmile:



My only quibbles are with the structure and pacing of the class.

In terms of structure, the Darkstalker has few options. Being a high tier class isn't just about being the most powerful uber charger, or the most impossible to find sneak, or the most untouchable controller. It's about having a list of options, and the ability to choose from that list (preferably on a daily or per encounter basis). A list of Talets, Powers, Spells, Soulmelds, Vestiges, etc. For example, a Wizard can wake up one morning and be a sneak, the next morning he can be a blaster, the next morning he can be a Summoner, and so on. A Darkstalker is locked into a single combat style (deny enemies their Dex, then hit them with a lot of attacks) and set of abilities. Even his Skills, which are turned up to 11, are locked in.


Tier 2 isn't really about options, it's more about power. A small blend of options with power, sure. You have a bunch of different ways you can destroy the world, but once you've chosen those ways, it's pretty difficult to do anything else. Sorcerers can not do everything. I've played sorcerers. The spells known list isn't enough for me to pick up half the stuff I want from Core, let alone the entire spell list.

This class doesn't give you the option to pick your weapons, making it more like a mundane beguiler, but I'm okay with that. Stealth is a powerful tool that gives you plenty of room for creativity and planning, as well as emergency retreats (At will dimension door and deeper darkness will make for great escapes).



You may wish to look at the Binder, Incarnate, Pathfinder Rogue (or anything Pathfinder), or my homebrew Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-186505.html) for some alternative ways to structure class ability progression for a Skill Monkey.


Unfortunately, I don't really think there are any other abilities I would like to offer the class, so there's no need to write a list and have a player pick and choose from them. The class has everything stealth-based that it needs, there aren't really any other abilities I could offer it while staying true to the fluff of the request.



In terms of pacing, you cram a lot of abilities into the first few levels, and then have an underwhelming 19th and 20th levels. 10 Skill Points per level with basically everything on the Skill list is essentially the same as 3ish bonus feats or class abilities. Tumble lets you avoid AoO, Spot/Listen means you're rarely Surprised, Hide/Move Silently lets you get Surprise rounds against others, and so on. On top of that, +1d8 bonus damage from Strike from Shadows is enough to kill most 1-2 hit die creatures, Better to be Clever than Skilled is an awesome ability that I wouldn't expect until 5th+ level, and Strike from Shadows duplicates a 2nd level spell.


I believe you meant to say "Disappear" at the last part there. And yes, I admit the class is pretty front-loaded, but I would rather up the pace of the later levels then weaken the early levels. The main problem I have with stealth-based classes is they take too many levels to become effective and they die too easily. With Disappear and the amount of skill points offered, you can easily play an assassin starting at level 1.



Instead, you may wish to consider 8 Skill Points per level, 1d6 Strike from Shadows (which is still superior to Sneak Attack, because nothing is immune) progression, and one Darkstalker Talent (or whatever) every odd level. On the flip side, you may wish to consider True Seeing at 19th level instead of See Invisibility, or some variation of the Shadow Elemental type (Tome of Magic pg 164, permanent Incorporeal traits and Elemental traits) as a capstone.


Why would I cut down skill points? You are essentially forced to spend at least 2 skill points per level on Hide and Move Silently for this class. Therefore I offered the class extra skill points to compensate. More customization is better, right? That's what you said earlier.

As I stated earlier, the progression that I have now is logical and appropriate, offering "Talents" that let a player choose their progression wouldn't really work, since I would still require the character to have Disappear before he got Vanishing Act, and Vanishing Act before he got Haunting Stalker, etc. Offering Talents would only work if I had more than 10 cool class features here, but I don't. So it's better to just give them all.

On the other hand...True Seeing and the Shadow Elemental type? That works. Okay, I'll put those in. Thanks for your suggestions.



Anywho, the above should be taken as a statement of my personal preferences, and not as a serious critique of your work. Again, well done.

I appreciate it. It really is hard to give a class enough powerful options without giving them spell progression, but I think I at least hit the "highest of the high" Tier 3 mark with this try.

Vixsor Lumin
2012-05-11, 12:51 AM
I'm pretty sure I'm under the necromancy time limit....

I just realized I never updated from my playtest of this class. Its only Level 5, and its PbP so we've only had 1 fight so far, but it really enjoyed it. The DM had a very powerful caster, and introduced guns into the setting, but thanks to being on the right side of a 50% miss chance I made it through the fight untouched, and managed to dish out almost as much damage as a homebrewed class that could grapple and and use a power attack with a greatsword at the same time. When we talked about it OOC I believe the phrase used to describe my characters signifigantlly higher health was "because of your never-to-be-sufficientlly-damned-invisibility" haha

I've been warned though that future encounters will have countermeasures against it, so well see how the "arms race" between the Darkstalker and the countermeasures scale.

NeoSeraphi
2012-05-11, 02:24 AM
I'm pretty sure I'm under the necromancy time limit....

I just realized I never updated from my playtest of this class. Its only Level 5, and its PbP so we've only had 1 fight so far, but it really enjoyed it. The DM had a very powerful caster, and introduced guns into the setting, but thanks to being on the right side of a 50% miss chance I made it through the fight untouched, and managed to dish out almost as much damage as a homebrewed class that could grapple and and use a power attack with a greatsword at the same time. When we talked about it OOC I believe the phrase used to describe my characters signifigantlly higher health was "because of your never-to-be-sufficientlly-damned-invisibility" haha

I've been warned though that future encounters will have countermeasures against it, so well see how the "arms race" between the Darkstalker and the countermeasures scale.

Thank you very much for the feedback! Also, invisibility is always the right answer. Just grab a wand of dispel magic and counter their see invisibility and their invisibility purge.