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View Full Version : Common-sense houserule compendium (3.5 Core+SRD, PEACH)



Yitzi
2012-01-19, 01:31 PM
It has been noted before, and will doubtless be noted again: Sometimes, D&D simply makes no sense.

Sometimes this leads to exploits (e.g. Shrink Item tricks). Sometimes it just leads to clear absurdities (e.g. Protection from Evil being superior to Protection from Good.) Whatever the effect, this is a list of short houserules to mitigate the worst offenders in Core.

Any comments on particular rules are welcome. Any further suggestions are welcome as well; if I like them and they're in Core+SRD I'll add them to the first post; if they're not Core but I understand and like them anyway I'll add them to the second post. The vast majority of these are how RAI is anyway; the others are things that simply make no sense as they are.

So now, for the list:

Spells:

-All protection from <alignment> spells prevent summoned creatures not of the opposing alignment from touching the target, just as protection from good does.

-When moving through a Web spell, one can never exceed half normal speed no matter how high their check is.

-Any polymorph effect that does not affect mental ability scores also does not grant or remove extraordinary mental special qualities (such as a human’s bonus feat or skills, or a dwarf’s stonecunning.)*

-If a character polymorphs into a creature with extra limbs, they have full use of those limbs, unlike the rule for Alter Self.*

-When an item shrunk by Shrink Item is tossed on a surface to restore it to normal size, it does not attain its normal size until after it lands. Similarly, use of a command word to restore its size can only be done when it is resting firmly on a surface capable of holding its restored weight. If the spell is dispelled or expires, the object regains its normal size over the course of five minutes.

-The effects of Cloudkill are treated as poison for all purposes (so antitoxin gives a saving throw bonus, dwarves get a total racial bonus of +4, neutralize poison and delay poison help against it, etc.)

-All effects listed in the Guards and Wards spells are optional; each can be present, absent, or present over only part of the warded area, as the caster chooses when casting the spell.

-An antimagic field suppresses the effects of a magical weapon only if the target is inside the field; if the target is outside the field but the weapon’s user is inside, the weapon hits as a magical weapon. Conversely, any weapon that is ineffective inside an antimagic field (such as the natural weapons of summoned creatures or incorporeal undead) is likewise ineffective against a target in an antimagic field, even if the weapon’s wielder is outside the field.

-In order to make campaigns more interesting, Legend Lore and Vision, while able to bring to mind information that has never been generally known, cannot bring to mind information that has only been known by a very small number of people throughout history (the location of a secret treasure that was known only by the person who buried it, for instance).*

-Transformation cannot increase the caster’s BAB above 20, but the increased BAB stacks with epic attack bonuses.

-Mass invisibility is broken for any individual who moves more than 180 feet from the farthest member of the group, not the nearest. (If when cast each has to be less than 180 feet away from every other one, the same should apply for maintaining it.)

-If Scintillating Pattern ends, so do all resulting effects, even if their time was not up.

-Some particularly powerful major artifacts are not subject to Mage’s Disjunction. (This simply makes sense for plot reasons; if a 17th level wizard can destroy the One Ring, then you lose out on a huge number of possible high-significance campaigns.)

-If multiple individuals casts Shield Other on the same target, the target and all casters evenly split damage taken by the target; uneven points of damage go first to the target and then to the casters in the order in which they cast the spell.

-The table for Reincarnate assumes a humanoid target; other types will have other tables. Furthermore, subraces (except those given explicitly) are a possibility within the given options.

-Interactions between Hallow and Unhallow: When an area is affected by both the Hallow spell and the Unhallow spell, the earlier effect suppresses the later one over the joint area. A heightened Hallow spell can dispel any Unhallow effect at least 5 spell levels lower than it, and similarly a heightened Unhallow spell can dispel a Hallow effect of at least 5 spell levels lower. Note that since Hallow and Unhallow are 5th level spells, this generally requires epic-level magic. (It doesn't make sense that any magical effect should be truly unremovable, but Hallow and Unhallow should be close to permanent.)

-Winds created by Control Winds have a Fortitude DC either equal to 10+spell level+caster’s key ability score (like a spell) or the DC to resist such a wind if it occurs naturally (as by the table on page 95 of the DMG), whichever is less.

-If the damage rolled for the Harm spell is at least 50, it requires a save for massive damage even if the target makes his save and has less than 51 hit points (and thus it does less than 50 damage).

-Control Plants does allow spell resistance.

*These are also included in my general fix (linked in my sig), since I was changing the relevant spells for balance reasons anyway.


Classes:


-All bonuses gained from a barbarian's rage are morale bonuses.

-The natural spell feat only affects druid and ranger spells (or other nature-based spells for non-Core classes).

-A monk’s Flurry of Blows ability cannot be used in conjunction with 2-weapon fighting.

-An arcane trickster’s bonus spells per day must be applied to an arcane casting class in which he is already able to cast 3rd level spells.

-If a prestige class requires a certain level of casting ability and gives advancement in a casting class, the casting class advanced must be one that meets the requirements. So for instance a wizard 5/rogue 3/bard 1 couldn't gain bard levels from Arcane Trickster, only wizard levels.

-Prestige classes and alignment: Any prestige class with an alignment requirement, other than Blackguard and Dwarven Defender, that violates its alignment requirement, loses the ability to progress in the class but suffers no other penalty. A Dwarven Defender also loses the ability to take a defensive stance, and a Blackguard loses all class abilities. Upon regaining their former alignment, a member of any of these classes immediately regains the benefits, with the exception of a blackguard (who requires an Atonement spell to regain his abilities and ability to progress.)


Combat actions:


-Improved Trip does not allow you to follow up with any attack that you could not have made instead of the trip (so if, for instance, the trip attack was due to a feat like knockdown, you cannot follow up with a non-trip attack.)

-When using the Ride skill for cover, it is then a move action to stop using the mount for cover and get back into position in order to attack or cast a spell. If you have a move action available, you can attempt to do this as a free action with the "fast mount or dismount" usage of the Ride skill.

-Groping to find an invisible creature can be done as one attack in a full attack rather than a standard action.


Items:

-In order to gain an AC bonus from a defending weapon, its wielder must attack with it on his previous turn. If a character has multiple defending weapons, their bonuses do not stack with each other.

-Cold iron items cost an extra 2000 gold to enchant the first time, but once they are enchanted it is not necessary to pay that price again for each additional enchantment.

-Even in a game with relatively open item customization, not every item can have its cost reduced by requiring certain features in order to use; any such case is purely up to the DM and depends on both balance and whether it "makes sense".


Miscellaneous:

-Whenever good and evil outsiders are referred to, that means outsiders of the good and evil subtypes, not all outsiders of good and evil alignment.

-Celestial and Half-celestial creatures have the good subtype, while fiendish and half-fiendish creatures have the evil subtype.

-If something has both hardness and damage reduction, they overlap.

-When using the feat Ride-by Attack, you need not move to the closest space that threatens the opponent, merely any space that threatens the opponent. You must still move in a straight line both before and after the attack.*

-The epic feat Planar Turning affects only Good outsiders and Evil outsiders.

*This was also included in my general Core fix (linked in my sig).

-A character with BAB of at least 20 does not require any ranks in Escape Artist to take the Legendary Wrestler epic feat.

-The Improved Manyshot feat cannot give more attacks than are available from a full attack.

-Temporary bonuses to an ability score work just like temporary hit points: They do not stack, and are the first lost to drain or damage.

-Regeneration/alignment does not prevent death from instant-death effects, including Coup de Grace and massive damage.

-Falling object rules are changed for extremely light and extremely heavy items. Anything weighing less than 1 ounce has both falling damage taken and falling damage done reduced by the factor by which it is less than one ounce, rounded down, to a minimum of 0 damage. (so a 1 ounce item would do and take 1 less damage, a half-ounce item would do and take 2 less damage, a 1/3-ounce item would do and take 3 less damage, and so on.) An item weighing more than 2000 pounds does not do 1d6 damage per 200 pounds, but rather does 10d6 damage for the first 2000 pounds, then both does and takes 1d6 additional damage for every 2000 pounds after the first 2000, up to 20,000, then 1d6 for every 20,000 pounds after the first 20,000, up to 200,000, and so on.

-Saves to avoid death from massive damage do not autofail on a 1. The DC is increased by 1 for every 10 points of damage above 50. (This is more so that it scales than a purely common-sense issue.)

-A creature is considered proficient with all natural weapons it has, including unarmed strikes.

Yitzi
2012-01-19, 01:32 PM
-Any base class with both Search and Disable Device as class skills gets the Trapfinding ability, as a rogue, at first level.

-A dread necromancer's fear aura only affects creatures for as long as they remain in the area of effect. The aura lasts until he chooses to remove it (also a free action).

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-19, 02:40 PM
Most of these a pretty solid. However...


If the damage rolled for the Harm spell is at least 50, it requires a save for massive damage even if the target has less than 51 hit points (and thus it does less than 50 damage).
RAW, Harm is a flat 10/level, and the minimum level you could cast it is 11, barring shenanigans.


Switching an item from both hands to one hand is a free action; switching it from one hand to both hands, or from one hand to the other, is a move action.
This is the single biggest thing that jumped out at me on the list. It takes so much less time to grab something you're already holding in one hand than it does to move thirty feet that it's not even funny. All of the actions mentioned here should be free.


Improved Trip does not allow you to follow up with any attack that you could not have made instead of the trip (so if, for instance, the trip attack was due to a feat like knockdown, you cannot follow up with a non-trip attack.)
Umm... the wording here is neigh-impenetrable. I think you mean that the bonus melee attack only applies if I use my standard action to make a mundane trip attempt-- which would make sense-- but I really can't tell.



When using the Ride skill for cover, it is then a move action to stop using the mount for cover and get back into position in order to attack or cast a spell.
There should be an option to swing back into the saddle as a swift or free action, with a sufficiently difficult Ride check (say, DC 30).

Yitzi
2012-01-19, 03:06 PM
Most of these a pretty solid. However...


RAW, Harm is a flat 10/level, and the minimum level you could cast it is 11, barring shenanigans.

Yes, which is why it normally will always do more than 50 (although at that level the save should be easy). But there's a special rule that it cannot reduce the target's hit points to less than 1, so if the target has low HP it can do less than 50 damage.


This is the single biggest thing that jumped out at me on the list. It takes so much less time to grab something you're already holding in one hand than it does to move thirty feet that it's not even funny.

I was thinking more of comparing it to picking something up off a table, or putting it down carefully (both of which are move actions.)


Umm... the wording here is neigh-impenetrable. I think you mean that the bonus melee attack only applies if I use my standard action to make a mundane trip attempt-- which would make sense-- but I really can't tell.

Basically, if you make the trip attack with anything that can only be used for a trip attack (knockdown, some obscure martial arts feat, etc.), you can't use Improved Trip to get a normal attack from it.



There should be an option to swing back into the saddle as a swift or free action, with a sufficiently difficult Ride check (say, DC 30).

I think making it into a usage of the "fast mount" ability seems good.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-19, 03:58 PM
Yes, which is why it normally will always do more than 50 (although at that level the save should be easy). But there's a special rule that it cannot reduce the target's hit points to less than 1, so if the target has low HP it can do less than 50 damage.


Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level). If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm)
The "less than 1" part only applies on a successful save, unless I'm reading this wrong.


I was thinking more of comparing it to picking something up off a table, or putting it down carefully (both of which are move actions.)
The latter is MAYBE a move action, if it's something really fragile, but I would say that the first is a free action that provokes an AoO. How long does it really take to pick something up when it's within arm's reach?

Mulletmanalive
2012-01-19, 04:04 PM
-Protection from Evil only prevents evil summoned creatures from touching the target, not those that are neither good nor evil.

I'm not really seeing why this is necessary; it's just a useful tag on to the Protection From spells...

Admittedly, made more sense when you were still able to turn them inwards to contained summoned monsters.


-When moving through a Web spell, one can never exceed half normal speed no matter how high their check is.

I assume you meant "Cannot move faster than its normal speed, regardless of how high their check is," otherwise it makes no sense. Why would something strong enough to tear the webs like they weren't there be kept to half speed by a level 2 spell?


-If a character polymorphs into a creature with extra limbs, they have full use of those limbs, unlike the rule for Alter Self.*

I thought that was already covered by the fact that you gain all the creature's extraordinary attacks...?


-The effects of Cloudkill are treated as poison for all purposes (so antitoxin gives a saving throw bonus, dwarves get a total racial bonus of +4, neutralize poison and delay poison help against it, etc.)

It wasn't already? This IS a common sense one. I didn't even notice.


-A monk’s Flurry of Blows ability cannot be used in conjunction with 2-weapon fighting.

Why? It's not as if the monk is a broken or breakably good class.


-Celestial and Half-celestial creatures have the good subtype, while fiendish and half-fiendish creatures have the evil subtype.

Very reasonable.


-The epic feat Planar Turning affects only Good outsiders and Evil outsiders.

Why? I can kind of see the logic but not really. Kind of screws over clerics of law, chaos, balance etc...


-Regeneration/alignment does not prevent death from instant-death effects, including Coup de Grace and massive damage.


Not really understanding what this is fixing... Aside from massive damage and coup de grace, both of which normally require you to use the antigen to deal them for them to stick [which is perfectly reasonable], this doesn't change anything.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-19, 04:59 PM
Most of these a pretty solid. However...

If the damage rolled for the Harm spell is at least 50, it requires a save for massive damage even if the target has less than 51 hit points (and thus it does less than 50 damage).*

RAW, Harm is a flat 10/level, and the minimum level you could cast it is 11, barring shenanigans.



What about other house rules for massive damage that try to make it scale with health, since past level 15 fifty damage in one attack get's alot less common, especially with spells. Can we say 50 damage or 1/2 your max HP, whichever is higher?

Yitzi
2012-01-19, 05:44 PM
The "less than 1" part only applies on a successful save, unless I'm reading this wrong.

I think you're reading it right, but on a successful save it would still do more than 50 damage if the target had enough hit points. Fixing to make it more clear.


The latter is MAYBE a move action, if it's something really fragile, but I would say that the first is a free action that provokes an AoO. How long does it really take to pick something up when it's within arm's reach?

And yet picking something up is a classic example of a move action. Presumably, a move action can be something even that quick.


I'm not really seeing why this is necessary; it's just a useful tag on to the Protection From spells...

Actually, now that I think of it, it makes more sense for them to all have that feature. Fixed.


I assume you meant "Cannot move faster than its normal speed, regardless of how high their check is," otherwise it makes no sense. Why would something strong enough to tear the webs like they weren't there be kept to half speed by a level 2 spell?

Same idea as Entangle.


I thought that was already covered by the fact that you gain all the creature's extraordinary attacks...?

Possibly debatable; this eliminates the issue.


It wasn't already?

Never explicitly says so.


Why? It's not as if the monk is a broken or breakably good class.

It's not for balance reasons, it's because they seem to be designed along the same idea and therefore (I feel, at least) shouldn't stack.


Why?

It's a direct outgrowth of the "alignment+'outsider' means outsiders of that subtype" rule. Also, why should a powerful good cleric be able to rebuke or command a Chaotic Neutral titan?


Kind of screws over clerics of law, chaos, balance etc...

Not really. Planar Turning still is available to all clerics with the effect depending only on whether they turn or rebuke undead. The only difference is that now outsiders that are neither good nor evil are not treated the same as good outsiders.


Not really understanding what this is fixing.

The basic goal was that a pit fiend shouldn't be able to take on 100 balors at no real threat to himself.


What about other house rules for massive damage that try to make it scale with health, since past level 15 fifty damage in one attack get's alot less common, especially with spells. Can we say 50 damage or 1/2 your max HP, whichever is higher?

Actually, now that I think of it an unscaling massive damage rule is sort of silly because it means at high levels any attack has a 1 in 20 chance of being fatal. I'll write something up and add it.

EDIT: Ok, I added "Saves to avoid death from massive damage do not autofail on a 1. The DC is increased by 1 for every 10 points of damage above 50." That way, the amount to need a (not autosucceeded) save is 10 times your Fort save bonus minus 8.

Mulletmanalive
2012-01-19, 06:55 PM
Same idea as Entangle.


Having gone back and read those spells again, the Entangled condition is faulty and should be a focus of being fixed.

I'll leave that to you [i already use a variation where it applies the Grappled condition to those in the area and you just have to break free of it].

Yitzi
2012-01-19, 09:15 PM
Having gone back and read those spells again, the Entangled condition is faulty and should be a focus of being fixed.

I'd disagree; Entangled can usually be broken with a Strength check, so that makes sense.

But even if a creature avoids the Entangled condition from an Entangle spell, it still turns the area into difficult terrain for half movement speed. It makes sense to me that Web should be no better.

Zeta Kai
2012-01-19, 09:38 PM
A monk IS proficient with its own unarmed strikes. That is all.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-19, 09:43 PM
A monk IS proficient with its own unarmed strikes. That is all.

THANK YOU.

And for non-Core, the duration of the dread necromancer's fear aura is either one minute, or one round per class level. (Yitzi, feel free to select whichever you like)

Also, can we just dump Trapfinding and add the ability to find and disable magical traps to Search and Disable Device already? It's really kind of stupid that you need a class feature to make those skills useful in the way they were intended.

Dragon Star
2012-01-19, 10:37 PM
Also, can we just dump Trapfinding and add the ability to find and disable magical traps to Search and Disable Device already? It's really kind of stupid that you need a class feature to make those skills useful in the way they were intended.

*cough*Pathfinder*cough*

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-19, 10:58 PM
*cough*Pathfinder*cough*

I agree, and Pathfinder did fix some of the stupid things that 3.5 had wrong, but this is still a 3.5 fix, so we can't just switch over to PF rules.

Dragon Star
2012-01-20, 03:15 AM
I know, but really all pathfinder is is a few pages of house rules, except published. Whenever I see a "3.5 house rule compendium" it usually end up having a ton of stuff that's already in pathfinder. Why not just switch, and houserule the PF game if you still have problems with it?

I just feel like trying to fix 3.5 is like trying to fix a house that's missing two or three (or four) walls, and fixing pathfinder is just a matter of a new paint job, a good sweeping, moving in new furniture and killing some rats. One is hard, the other is just going to end up bringing the whole precariously balanced thing down on your head.

absolmorph
2012-01-20, 05:35 AM
I know, but really all pathfinder is is a few pages of house rules, except published. Whenever I see a "3.5 house rule compendium" it usually end up having a ton of stuff that's already in pathfinder. Why not just switch, and houserule the PF game if you still have problems with it?

I just feel like trying to fix 3.5 is like trying to fix a house that's missing two or three (or four) walls, and fixing pathfinder is just a matter of a new paint job, a good sweeping, moving in new furniture and killing some rats. One is hard, the other is just going to end up bringing the whole precariously balanced thing down on your head.
No, if trying to fix 3.5 is like trying to fix a house that's missing three walls, trying to fix Pathfinder is like trying to fix the same house after the whole thing has gotten a new coat of paint.
Pathfinder has many of the same problems as 3.5, and I'd offer an enumeration but there are already plenty around if you look.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-20, 10:16 AM
Also, can we just dump Trapfinding and add the ability to find and disable magical traps to Search and Disable Device already? It's really kind of stupid that you need a class feature to make those skills useful in the way they were intended.

Yes! 100 times this!

Besides the rogue, what other non-core classes got trapfinding? Just in case I get stuck in a game without homebrew.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-20, 10:25 AM
Yes! 100 times this!

Besides the rogue, what other non-core classes got trapfinding? Just in case I get stuck in a game without homebrew.

Ninja, scout and spellthief (all from Complete Adventurer), beguiler (Player's Handbook II), and factotum (Dungeonscape). I think I'm forgetting one, but those are the main ones.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-20, 01:10 PM
Also, can we just dump Trapfinding and add the ability to find and disable magical traps to Search and Disable Device already? It's really kind of stupid that you need a class feature to make those skills useful in the way they were intended.

How about we say that Search and Disable Device work equally well for any class with those abilities, but the Trapfinding class feature gives you a bonus.

That way you won't be taking to much away from the Rogues/Ninjas/Spellthieves but your party won't suffer for not having one in the group.

lunar2
2012-01-20, 01:52 PM
Incarnates get trapfinding with the theft gloves soulmeld bound to the hands chakra, plus bonuses to disable device and sleight of hand (iirc) from essentia. but search and disable device are cross class for an incarnate, although skill bonuses from essentia in certain soulmelds actually put incarnate higher than rogue on search, assuming max ranks.

Yitzi
2012-01-20, 02:35 PM
A monk IS proficient with its own unarmed strikes. That is all.

Everyone is proficient with unarmed strikes, as they're a special type of natural weapon.


THANK YOU.

And for non-Core, the duration of the dread necromancer's fear aura is either one minute, or one round per class level. (Yitzi, feel free to select whichever you like)

Why, what is it by RAW?


Also, can we just dump Trapfinding and add the ability to find and disable magical traps to Search and Disable Device already? It's really kind of stupid that you need a class feature to make those skills useful in the way they were intended.

I don't see why that really makes sense. Leaving aside that Search and Disable Device have plenty of other uses, the class feature comes free with the most common way of getting the skills anyway.


I know, but really all pathfinder is is a few pages of house rules, except published. Whenever I see a "3.5 house rule compendium" it usually end up having a ton of stuff that's already in pathfinder. Why not just switch, and houserule the PF game if you still have problems with it?

Because there are many aspects of PF that I don't like (their approach to classes, for instance); my houserules actually have only a small amount from Pathfinder (largely because Pathfinder tries to compensate for splatbook influence, while I try to minimize it).


How about we say that Search and Disable Device work equally well for any class with those abilities, but the Trapfinding class feature gives you a bonus.

Better yet, just give such classes (base classes only, and only those with both) Trapfinding. That's in the non-core section, though, as there are no Core base classes other than rogue with those skills.


Incarnates get trapfinding with the theft gloves soulmeld bound to the hands chakra, plus bonuses to disable device and sleight of hand (iirc) from essentia. but search and disable device are cross class for an incarnate, although skill bonuses from essentia in certain soulmelds actually put incarnate higher than rogue on search, assuming max ranks.

I'm not sure what the point is here.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-20, 02:39 PM
Why, what is it by RAW?


Instantaneous. There is no duration listed, so a creature who fails its save against a dread necromancer's fear aura is permanently shaken, even if it kills the dread necromancer and disintegrates the remains, it will still be scared 10 years later.

gkathellar
2012-01-20, 03:08 PM
This is mostly pretty good! A couple of objections:


-When moving through a Web spell, one can never exceed half normal speed no matter how high their check is.

I'd ammend this to never exceeding normal speed. If your escape artist check is super-high, it makes sense to be able to avoid the web's strands entirely ... just not to be able to move faster than you normally would.


-Some particularly powerful major artifacts are not subject to Mage’s Disjunction. (This simply makes sense for plot reasons; if a 17th level wizard can destroy the One Ring, then you lose out on a huge number of possible high-significance campaigns.)

Destroying an artifact with Disjunction is already a dangerous exercise and amounts to taking a big risk, and if you succeed a deity will usually come along and squash you flat. I'd say this is unnecessary.


-The natural spell feat only affects druid spells. Similarly, the Share Spells ability of certain class allies only applies to spells from that class (including scrolls but not wands.)

This is wholly unnecessary outside of gestalt (and I doubt its necessity there, too). A druid 5/(other caster) 15 isn't exactly the most powerful thing the game has ever seen.


-A monk’s Flurry of Blows ability cannot be used in conjunction with 2-weapon fighting.

Why not?


-Switching an item from both hands to one hand is a free action; switching it from one hand to both hands, or from one hand to the other, is a move action.

This makes no sense as a balance adjustment or as a common sense adjustment. As an amateur swordsman I can tell you that going from one to both hands is no more difficult than going from both hands to one (which is to say: it's not, and is done almost constantly with many kinds of single blade).

Yitzi
2012-01-20, 03:49 PM
Instantaneous. There is no duration listed, so a creature who fails its save against a dread necromancer's fear aura is permanently shaken, even if it kills the dread necromancer and disintegrates the remains, it will still be scared 10 years later.

Looking at the blurb on the Wizards site, it seems to me that the intent is that it lasts as long as the target is in the area of effect (the aura itself is an indefinite-duration effect), so that's what I'm putting.


I'd ammend this to never exceeding normal speed. If your escape artist check is super-high, it makes sense to be able to avoid the web's strands entirely ... just not to be able to move faster than you normally would.

It still seems to me it would be difficult terrain, similar to the area of an Entangle spell if you avoid actually being entangled.


Destroying an artifact with Disjunction is already a dangerous exercise and amounts to taking a big risk, and if you succeed a deity will usually come along and squash you flat. I'd say this is unnecessary.

It's not necessary for balance reasons, but is necessary for plot reasons. It doesn't make sense that if Gandalf had had a ninth-level spell the whole mission into Mordor would be irrelevant.


This is wholly unnecessary outside of gestalt (and I doubt its necessity there, too). A druid 5/(other caster) 15 isn't exactly the most powerful thing the game has ever seen.

It's not needed for balance reasons, the idea was just that it made more sense. Now that I think of it, though, it's not all that clear; removed for Share Spells, although Natural Spell definitely makes more sense that way.


Why not?

The whole idea of FoB is attacking with everything you've got, so it shouldn't stack with TWF.


This makes no sense as a balance adjustment or as a common sense adjustment. As an amateur swordsman I can tell you that going from one to both hands is no more difficult than going from both hands to one (which is to say: it's not, and is done almost constantly with many kinds of single blade).

Ok, if you say so, I'll take the word of a (relative) expert. Removed. (It does have balance applications, though, in that if you're wielding a 2-handed weapon it would keep you from moving it to one hand to Deflect Arrows and then back to 2 to attack.)

TheArsenal
2012-01-20, 04:25 PM
Role spell resistance AFTER failing reflex save. I guess you first you got HIT by the spell and then jump out of the way.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-20, 04:28 PM
Hey, that's right. If we're doing "common sense" houseruling here, we should be fixing Evasion. It's not really "evasion" if you don't move from your square at all, especially if the evasion in question is a 60 cone of fire that completely covers all the squares it hits.

Edit: Here you go, how about this:

Evasion (Ex): When you are targeted by a spell or special attack that allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, you may make a Tumble check as an immediate action. If you succeed a DC 15 Tumble check, you may move up to half your movement speed in any direction before the attack hits you.

Improved Evasion (Ex): As Evasion, but if your Tumble check result is 25 or higher, you may move up to your full movement speed as an immediate action.

ChumpLump
2012-01-20, 04:29 PM
Everyone is proficient with unarmed strikes, as they're a special type of natural weapon.

I don't see the implied house rules on the list. (Everyone is proficient with natural weapons. Unarmed strikes are a special type of natural weapon).
These are not RAW, so... perhaps they should be included on the list?

gkathellar
2012-01-20, 04:42 PM
It's not necessary for balance reasons, but is necessary for plot reasons. It doesn't make sense that if Gandalf had had a ninth-level spell the whole mission into Mordor would be irrelevant.

If Gandalf had 5th level spells he would have used Teleport to get Frodo to Mount Doom, dropped the ring right there, and been done with it. LotR has never mapped well to high-level D&D and it never will.


It's not needed for balance reasons, the idea was just that it made more sense. Now that I think of it, though, it's not all that clear; removed for Share Spells, although Natural Spell definitely makes more sense that way.

Why does it make more sense that way?


The whole idea of FoB is attacking with everything you've got, so it shouldn't stack with TWF.

So I guess you also shouldn't be able to use Power Attack with FoB? :smallconfused:

Even if FoB constitutes attacking with all you've got, I don't understand why that wouldn't stack with TWF. Does using two weapons somehow prohibit you from doing that?


(It does have balance applications, though, in that if you're wielding a 2-handed weapon it would keep you from moving it to one hand to Deflect Arrows and then back to 2 to attack.)

That's not really a very significant balance implication. Frankly, if you're looking for common-sense fixes, Deflect Arrows should be usable with weapons, because it's ridiculous that you should be able to swat arrows aside with your hand but not with your sword.

The more significant balance implication has to do with THF-gishes — but since a gish is still worse than a regular caster, it still doesn't matter all that much.

The_Ebolanator
2012-01-20, 05:05 PM
Edit: Here you go, how about this:

Evasion (Ex): When you are targeted by a spell or special attack that allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, you may make a Tumble check as an immediate action. If you succeed a DC 15 Tumble check, you may move up to half your movement speed in any direction before the attack hits you.

Improved Evasion (Ex): As Evasion, but if your Tumble check result is 25 or higher, you may move up to your full movement speed as an immediate action.

I like where you're going, but I personally think that (with evasion, of course) moving out of the area should be done as a free action that's a part of the reflex save and doesn't require any additional checks or actions (that is to say, if you make the save with evasion, move half your speed to get out of there. If you can't make it, you're bum is toast).

This is mostly because I believe that a character that has evasion to begin with probably has been trained in the art of . . . well, evasion; and thus it's intuitive. That, and it helps streamline combat.

Same goes for Improved evasion.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-20, 11:07 PM
I like where you're going, but I personally think that (with evasion, of course) moving out of the area should be done as a free action that's a part of the reflex save and doesn't require any additional checks or actions (that is to say, if you make the save with evasion, move half your speed to get out of there. If you can't make it, you're bum is toast).

This is mostly because I believe that a character that has evasion to begin with probably has been trained in the art of . . . well, evasion; and thus it's intuitive. That, and it helps streamline combat.

Same goes for Improved evasion.

Well, see, in my example, you don't actually make a saving throw. It's much better than Evasion is now, because you don't have to worry about optimized save DCs. You just Tumble your way out of there and the caster never even gets a chance to hit you. Also, it makes ring of evasion much less attractive, since unless you have any ranks in Tumble, you probably won't be able to use it. (And most characters with Tumble as a class skill already have Evasion)

gkathellar
2012-01-21, 07:43 AM
Well, see, in my example, you don't actually make a saving throw. It's much better than Evasion is now, because you don't have to worry about optimized save DCs. You just Tumble your way out of there and the caster never even gets a chance to hit you. Also, it makes ring of evasion much less attractive, since unless you have any ranks in Tumble, you probably won't be able to use it. (And most characters with Tumble as a class skill already have Evasion)

Problem is, it also makes Evasion worthless for rangers unless they take Skilled City-Dweller.

Yora
2012-01-21, 08:24 AM
A monk IS proficient with its own unarmed strikes. That is all.
Though I wouldn't call this a houserule but an editing error.

TuggyNE
2012-01-21, 08:36 AM
A few things have I to weigh in on. *bounces his two grams up and down experimentally :smallamused:*


All Protection from <alignment> spells prevent summoned creatures not matching the alignment's subtype from touching the target, just as Protection from Good does.
This is a little unclear to me. Protection from evil, obviously, prevents any non-good summons from touching, which sounds like this rule. However, protection from good prevents any good summons from touching, rather than any non-evil. If that's what you meant, perhaps "All protection from <alignment> spells prevents summoned creatures of the opposing alignment's subtype from touching the target, just as protection from good does" would be a clearer way to spell it out.


Some particularly powerful major artifacts are not subject to Mage’s Disjunction. (This simply makes sense for plot reasons; if a 17th level wizard can destroy the One Ring, then you lose out on a huge number of possible high-significance campaigns.)
As others have mentioned, high-level D&D doesn't map one-to-one with LotR. And this rule seems to create a third ("epic"?) category of artifacts, when all I would consider necessary or desirable is casting an epic spell on the artifact to prevent disjoining, or something of that general nature. (The formulation of such a spell is a reasonable thing to list here, I'd think.) Alternatively, introduce a new mechanism for all artifacts such that the more powerful the artifact, the lower the probability of disjunction functioning.


The natural spell feat only affects druid spells
Ah, wildshape ranger, I barely knew ye.
I'd suggest rewording slightly: "The natural spell feat only affects spells granted by the class with the wild shape ability." although even that could use a bit more polish.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-21, 11:28 AM
Problem is, it also makes Evasion worthless for rangers unless they take Skilled City-Dweller.

Well, obviously any class with the Evasion ability would also have Tumble as a class skill if it doesn't already. (Gaining evasion through other means doesn't add Tumble as a skill, but if you have it naturally, you gain Tumble as well)

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-21, 04:43 PM
My two cents on artifacts: in my games if there is a major artifact, it's indestructible. If for some odd reason it needs destroying, that is its own separate quest to discover and execute a means of destroying it. Minor artifacts I can see being destroyable, but major artifacts are the greatest creations of the gods, and not meant to wind up in the hands of mortals in almost all cases.

About Evasion: Leave it as is, just make it move you to the edge of the effect.

As for Flurry of Blows: What's the big deal with it stacking with Two Weapon Fighting? :smallconfused: This is one of those classical D&D arguments I just don't get. He has two hands. He fights with both of them. Therefore, he can use TWF. Seriously, Monks already suck, let's not help it along.

Yitzi
2012-01-21, 07:53 PM
Role spell resistance AFTER failing reflex save. I guess you first you got HIT by the spell and then jump out of the way.

Since Reflex saves have no effect other than half damage, it makes more sense to roll SR first, as if it doesn't beat SR then the save is irrelevant. Yes, it happens in the other order, but when it comes to something as minor as the order of the rolls convenience is more important than matching "reality".


Hey, that's right. If we're doing "common sense" houseruling here, we should be fixing Evasion. It's not really "evasion" if you don't move from your square at all, especially if the evasion in question is a 60 cone of fire that completely covers all the squares it hits.

The way I see it, you're tumbling "forward" through it quickly enough to take no significant damage.


Edit: Here you go, how about this:

Evasion (Ex): When you are targeted by a spell or special attack that allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, you may make a Tumble check as an immediate action. If you succeed a DC 15 Tumble check, you may move up to half your movement speed in any direction before the attack hits you.

Interesting idea, but it means that being targeted with a Fireball can actually be advantageous because you get extra movement.


I don't see the implied house rules on the list. (Everyone is proficient with natural weapons. Unarmed strikes are a special type of natural weapon).
These are not RAW, so... perhaps they should be included on the list?

Maybe it's better to make it explicit. Added.


If Gandalf had 5th level spells he would have used Teleport to get Frodo to Mount Doom, dropped the ring right there, and been done with it. LotR has never mapped well to high-level D&D and it never will.

Ok, I suppose that's true. Still seems that destroying plot items regardless of power is too much even for a 9th level spell.


Why does it make more sense that way?

You're drawing on natural power in order to use a spell in wild shape, that should only work when the spell is based on natural power.


So I guess you also shouldn't be able to use Power Attack with FoB? :smallconfused:

Why? One is about the number of attacks, the other about their strength.


Even if FoB constitutes attacking with all you've got, I don't understand why that wouldn't stack with TWF. Does using two weapons somehow prohibit you from doing that?

No, it's included in it. The way I understand it, FoB is essentially an all-weapon attack, hence why the classic example involves hitting with both ends of a quarterstaff.


That's not really a very significant balance implication.

Not all that significant, but it can be relevant. I've seen the tactic used.


Frankly, if you're looking for common-sense fixes, Deflect Arrows should be usable with weapons, because it's ridiculous that you should be able to swat arrows aside with your hand but not with your sword.

I'd disagree; you get more control with your hand than with a weapon.


This is a little unclear to me. Protection from evil, obviously, prevents any non-good summons from touching, which sounds like this rule. However, protection from good prevents any good summons from touching, rather than any non-evil. If that's what you meant, perhaps "All protection from <alignment> spells prevents summoned creatures of the opposing alignment's subtype from touching the target, just as protection from good does" would be a clearer way to spell it out.

Except it's anything of that alignment, even without the subtype. But other than that, probably simpler, and changed.


As others have mentioned, high-level D&D doesn't map one-to-one with LotR. And this rule seems to create a third ("epic"?) category of artifacts, when all I would consider necessary or desirable is casting an epic spell on the artifact to prevent disjoining, or something of that general nature.

I prefer the idea that it's inherent in the artifact, and the power in it.


Ah, wildshape ranger, I barely knew ye.

Like rangers were so spell-dependent anyway. Also not relevant to Core. But rangers really should get it anyway, so fixed.


My two cents on artifacts: in my games if there is a major artifact, it's indestructible. If for some odd reason it needs destroying, that is its own separate quest to discover and execute a means of destroying it. Minor artifacts I can see being destroyable, but major artifacts are the greatest creations of the gods, and not meant to wind up in the hands of mortals in almost all cases.

That's the basic intent here, but rather than major artifacts, it's only certain artifacts (usually those in which a deity or quasi-deity power has invested some particular essence or connection.)


About Evasion: Leave it as is, just make it move you to the edge of the effect.

As before, that's not how I understand Evasion working.


As for Flurry of Blows: What's the big deal with it stacking with Two Weapon Fighting? :smallconfused: This is one of those classical D&D arguments I just don't get. He has two hands. He fights with both of them. Therefore, he can use TWF. Seriously, Monks already suck, let's not help it along.

But he fights with both of them even when using FoB and not TWF, so what's TWF doing giving more attacks?

And the approach to "monks suck" is in other fixes; my favored approach is to make them into the class that makes wizards cry (but still loses to fighters).

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-21, 09:02 PM
But he fights with both of them even when using FoB and not TWF, so what's TWF doing giving more attacks?

As I understand FoB, he's also using his knees, elbow, feet, et cetera. I always saw the TWF as training to follow up one attack with another in rapid succession to get by the opponent's defenses, and FoB as just a rapid attack barrage on the foe. TWF simply refines FoB to be more effective.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-21, 09:06 PM
As I understand FoB, he's also using his knees, elbow, feet, et cetera. I always saw the TWF as training to follow up one attack with another in rapid succession to get by the opponent's defenses, and FoB as just a rapid attack barrage on the foe. TWF simply refines FoB to be more effective. completely and totally ineffective, with the additional -2 penalty on all attack rolls made that round

Fixed that for you.

The real problem that I have with mixing Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows is that, to be honest, Flurry of Blows is Two-Weapon Fighting. As a full-round action, get an extra attack at your highest attack bonus, but take a -2 penalty on all your rolls. At 11th level, you get an extra attack on top of that. So...why should a monk be allowed to mix them? He's basically getting a sweeter, auto-scaling version of it (no feat, no Dex requirement, and the penalties go away by 9th level)

Yitzi
2012-01-21, 10:58 PM
As I understand FoB, he's also using his knees, elbow, feet, et cetera. I always saw the TWF as training to follow up one attack with another in rapid succession to get by the opponent's defenses, and FoB as just a rapid attack barrage on the foe. TWF simply refines FoB to be more effective.

If TWF is a refinement of FoB, why is it more restricted? If anything, it's the other way around.


The real problem that I have with mixing Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows is that, to be honest, Flurry of Blows is Two-Weapon Fighting. As a full-round action, get an extra attack at your highest attack bonus, but take a -2 penalty on all your rolls. At 11th level, you get an extra attack on top of that. So...why should a monk be allowed to mix them? He's basically getting a sweeter, auto-scaling version of it (no feat, no Dex requirement, and the penalties go away by 9th level)

Essentially this.

gkathellar
2012-01-22, 12:39 AM
You're drawing on natural power in order to use a spell in wild shape, that should only work when the spell is based on natural power.

Or ... you have special training to cast spells in wild shaped forms. Feats are function, fluff is optional.


No, it's included in it. The way I understand it, FoB is essentially an all-weapon attack, hence why the classic example involves hitting with both ends of a quarterstaff.

It comes down to this: if you spend the feats to be able to attack more ambidextrously than the other guy, you should be able to. That's what the feat does.


I'd disagree; you get more control with your hand than with a weapon.

If you're actually good enough to swat an arrow aside in flight, you're already so far beyond plausibility that ... well, yeah. And even submitting to the rule of "common sense," your hand is flesh and a sword is metal. One is going to punctuate most of its arrow-stopping with extensive bleeding, and one isn't.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-22, 08:58 AM
It comes down to this: if you spend the feats to be able to attack more ambidextrously than the other guy, you should be able to. That's what the feat does.


I'm pretty sure the TWF feat(s) was intended for people WITHOUT access to FoB; and that Flurry implies that you are hitting with both hands/weapons already. That's the common sense version of how I look at it.
Fob is essentially TWF in all but name, and I would consider saying that FoB can serve as the prerequisite for anything requiring TWF.
In my monk fix, I specificaly made a point of mentioning that the two do not stack.

Also, one of the biggest complaints about monks at a high level is that they have trouble hitting things, and TWF as written does nothing to help with that.

I would rather FIX both FoB and TWF than mesh two mediocre mechanics together into something even worse.

Yitzi
2012-01-22, 12:16 PM
Or ... you have special training to cast spells in wild shaped forms. Feats are function, fluff is optional.

Then why wouldn't there be an equivalent for polymorph forms.


It comes down to this: if you spend the feats to be able to attack more ambidextrously than the other guy, you should be able to.

But you're not able to attack more ambidextrously than a monk with FoB and no TWF. More attacks, yes. More ambidextrously, no.


If you're actually good enough to swat an arrow aside in flight, you're already so far beyond plausibility that ... well, yeah.

It's not a question of plausibility, it's one of control.


And even submitting to the rule of "common sense," your hand is flesh and a sword is metal. One is going to punctuate most of its arrow-stopping with extensive bleeding, and one isn't.

I think the idea of Deflect Arrows is that you're not hitting the arrow head-on.

Ashtagon
2012-01-22, 01:39 PM
Evasion (Ex): When you are targeted by a spell or special attack that allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, you may make a Tumble check as an immediate action. This immediate action uses up your next move action (not your next swift action). If you succeed a DC 15 Tumble check, you may move up to half your movement speed in any direction before the attack hits you.

This work better?

ETA: If the Tumble check fails, you do not use up your next move action.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-22, 02:07 PM
This work better?

Hmm...that's a very interesting idea. I like the implications too. You're not just stepping into rogue-space, you're borrowing time from your next turn and instinctively moving out of the way with it.

Yitzi
2012-01-22, 04:09 PM
This work better?

Definitely. It's a bit more of a change from even RAI than I'm looking to get with most of these. Definitely a worthwhile homebrew fix to Evasion, though.

SpaceBadger
2012-01-22, 07:41 PM
Interesting idea, but it means that being targeted with a Fireball can actually be advantageous because you get extra movement.

"Thrown clear by the blast"? :smallwink: (except that aren't fireballs now all heat, no pressure?)

Could lead to a rogue asking a friendly wizard for a "fireball boost"!

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-22, 08:43 PM
"Thrown clear by the blast"? :smallwink: (except that aren't fireballs now all heat, no pressure?)

Could lead to a rogue asking a friendly wizard for a "fireball boost"!

Sounds like fun to me.

SpaceBadger
2012-01-22, 09:14 PM
If you want to use a movement variant of Evasion, maybe the direction of movement is random rather than being controlled by the rogue. That could reduce the purposeful exploits for extra movement.

Yitzi
2012-01-22, 10:43 PM
If you want to use a movement variant of Evasion, maybe the direction of movement is random rather than being controlled by the rogue. That could reduce the purposeful exploits for extra movement.

I prefer the "comes from your next turn" approach...it's still too much of a change for what I'm looking for in this thread.

lunar2
2012-01-23, 11:38 AM
what about this?

the order of modifiers to energy damage is:

spell effects (resist energy (fire), etc.)

Item effects (ring of resist fire, etc.)

template/class feature effects (half fiend resist fire)

natural effects (frost giant fire vulnerability).

so, a half fiend frost giant with protection from fire (cl 5) cast on it, plus a ring of resist fire 20, that is subjected to a maximized DB fireball (CL 20) would take 45 damage (120 - 60 - 20 - 10 x 1.5).

Yitzi
2012-01-23, 03:25 PM
what about this?

the order of modifiers to energy damage is:

spell effects (resist energy (fire), etc.)

Item effects (ring of resist fire, etc.)

template/class feature effects (half fiend resist fire)

natural effects (frost giant fire vulnerability).

so, a half fiend frost giant with protection from fire (cl 5) cast on it, plus a ring of resist fire 20, that is subjected to a maximized DB fireball (CL 20) would take 45 damage (120 - 60 - 20 - 10 x 1.5).

Why should the source of the effect matter? The general rule is that percentage bonuses come before static bonuses.

Deviston
2013-03-08, 02:18 PM
Gonna jump on this bandwagon.

Can Dispel effects cause the Shrink Item (bag of bolders turned into pebbles) to return to original size as normal (mid air falling toward the castle of Captain Evil Von Vaderham)? Or just the command word is rendered ineffective?

Yitzi
2013-03-08, 02:59 PM
Gonna jump on this bandwagon.

Can Dispel effects cause the Shrink Item (bag of bolders turned into pebbles) to return to original size as normal (mid air falling toward the castle of Captain Evil Von Vaderham)? Or just the command word is rendered ineffective?

Good point; I'll add a bit for that too.

EDIT: Ok, added. It regains its normal size over the course of 5 minutes; pretty much anything will take less time than that to fall.

Deviston
2013-03-08, 05:22 PM
Editted: Might be construed as offensive.

Bah, to each his own. ::Unsubscribed::