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View Full Version : Redcloak just screwed up. Royally...possibly



ZerglingOne
2012-01-23, 05:55 PM
Evil though she may be, Tsukiko does still worship the 12 gods of the southern zodiac as one of their clerics. Redcloak just divulged the plan for his god to hold the other gods hostage to a cleric of the southern gods. Don't you think that's information they'd like to know?

If I'm right (which of course I could be reading too much into this,) Tsukiko will be a huge reason Redcloak's plan will fail.

NerfTW
2012-01-23, 06:01 PM
Oh wow, good catch. Although I don't think they'd bother interrogating a random dead necromancer, that is a very good possibility.

shadowkiller
2012-01-23, 06:15 PM
It is very likely that at least one of the 12 gods are using their Remote Sensing power on the place that was formally known as Azure City causing them to overhear that conversation.

G-Man Graves
2012-01-23, 06:28 PM
It is very likely that at least one of the 12 gods are using their Remote Sensing power on the place that was formally known as Azure City causing them to overhear that conversation.

[citation needed]

That's Dark One territory now. The Twelve Gods can go watch that boring clump of islands that Hinjo is camping out on. Or maybe the entire rest of the southern lands.

SmartAlec
2012-01-23, 06:42 PM
Wouldn't they already know? They have a whole Paladin order dedicated to fighting the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. Wouldn't Soon have told them?

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-23, 06:44 PM
Wouldn't they already know? They have a whole Paladin order dedicated to fighting the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. Wouldn't Soon have told them?Miko thought Redcloak was a nihilist seeking to undo creation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html), so Soon didn't know exactly what the Bearer's Plan is, just that involves the Snarl.

luc258
2012-01-23, 06:47 PM
How do the good gods usually react in an D&D setting to the evil guy trying to destroy the world?

If the gods learned about the possibility of Dark One's plan from basically anyone in the paladin order, which includes clerics who pray to their gods regularly, what supernatural powers do gods have in a D&D setting to get the whole story?

Flame of Anor
2012-01-23, 07:10 PM
Evil though she may be, Tsukiko does still worship the 12 gods of the southern zodiac as one of their clerics. Redcloak just divulged the plan for his god to hold the other gods hostage to a cleric of the southern gods. Don't you think that's information they'd like to know?

If I'm right (which of course I could be reading too much into this,) Tsukiko will be a huge reason Redcloak's plan will fail.

Wow...maybe he should have level-drained her down to 1st level then thrown her into the rift.

holywhippet
2012-01-23, 07:36 PM
Evil though she may be, Tsukiko does still worship the 12 gods of the southern zodiac as one of their clerics. Redcloak just divulged the plan for his god to hold the other gods hostage to a cleric of the southern gods. Don't you think that's information they'd like to know?



Do you know for certain that she is a cleric? As a mystic theurge she needs to be able to cast level 2 divine spells but there are no restrictions on what class she gets them from. Druid might be a stretch, but she could be an archivist.

Adama
2012-01-23, 07:44 PM
Miko thought Redcloak was a nihilist seeking to undo creation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html), so Soon didn't know exactly what the Bearer's Plan is, just that involves the Snarl.

Yeah, but as has been repeatedly said, the gods have a blackout on information about the Snarl going to their mortal servants, even the loyal ones who are working their asses off to fix the problem. So just because the Sapphire Guard didn't know the full extent of Redcloak's plans doesn't mean the rest of the gods don't.

Anarion
2012-01-23, 07:45 PM
That room was dimensionally locked though. I'd bet that it's also warded against scrying. Now sure, if one of the gods specifically attempted to look into that room, they could bypass all the wards (as we've seen with Roy's epic inside scrying from heaven). But why would one of the 12 gods just happen to be randomly looking directly at that room, or even following Tsukiko around? With just ambient divine awareness, I think the magical protections of the room would be enough to prevent the info getting out.

That said, if Tsukiko gets post-mortem interrogated by Rat (the most evil member of the 12 gods I believe), there's a reasonable chance that she'll spill the beans.

cheezewizz2000
2012-01-23, 07:47 PM
Do you know for certain that she is a cleric? As a mystic theurge she needs to be able to cast level 2 divine spells but there are no restrictions on what class she gets them from. Druid might be a stretch, but she could be an archivist.

It's rare that Rich uses non-core classes. She's PROBABLY a Cleric/Wizard, and probably a Cleric of Rat (twelve gods) and he's one of the an evil ones who were well up for giving The Dark One "a shot" (The Start Of Darkness) .

So either Rat doesn't care and thinks that the whole thing is pretty funny, or the gods have to be actively looking to see what's going on and Rat has more important things on his mind than some Mystic Theurge with a zombie fetish.

Edit: and if it's the latter, he's probably pretty busy to interview EVERY evil PC that enters his realm. For all we know, the equivalent to the LG beurocracy for the CE afterlife is a devil with a pitchfork who just shovels souls into The Pit all day. What are the screams of one person amongst all the tortured souls who pass through?

Fish
2012-01-23, 07:57 PM
Neither Eugene (with heaven's Epic Inside clouds) or the IFCC (with their Hell-Damned TV) had any prohibition from scrying into Azure City. It didn't matter that the Dark One owned the city, or that Xykon cast Cloister.

Therefore, we can't rule out that the gods know exactly what is going on.

However, we also can't prove that they do, because they won't tell anyone.

It certainly puts a new light on the Dark One's plan; it relies on surprising the gods, whom we know could be watching.

Zmflavius
2012-01-23, 07:59 PM
I've seen it suggested that Redcloak would quickly follow up with a Soul Bind or something right after the events of 830, if only to prevent her being resurrected.

Anarion
2012-01-23, 08:12 PM
I've seen it suggested that Redcloak would quickly follow up with a Soul Bind or something right after the events of 830, if only to prevent her being resurrected.

There's basically no way he has that ready though. Plus he left at the end of this comic and I don't think he's coming back for a while, what with all the wight devouring that's happening.

Maybe he just doesn't care if the gods know. They can't really fight directly since that might unleash the snarl anyway, and the non-compete clause would prevent interference against Redcloak.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-23, 08:39 PM
It's rare that Rich uses non-core classes. She's PROBABLY a Cleric/Wizard, and probably a Cleric of Rat (twelve gods) and he's one of the an evil ones who were well up for giving The Dark One "a shot" (The Start Of Darkness) .

So either Rat doesn't care and thinks that the whole thing is pretty funny, or the gods have to be actively looking to see what's going on and Rat has more important things on his mind than some Mystic Theurge with a zombie fetish.

But if Rat was up for giving the Dark One a shot, he might well gamble on helping the Plan so he could get on the Dark One's side for the showdown.

AngelusAlvus
2012-01-23, 09:05 PM
Here are random thoughts:
1)RC either forgot tsukiko could tell anyone about his plans in the afterlife that awaits for her.
Orrrr....
2)His plan is near complete so all he had to do was delay just Xykon from knowing it for a little longer.

Kish
2012-01-23, 09:09 PM
But if Rat was up for giving the Dark One a shot, he might well gamble on helping the Plan so he could get on the Dark One's side for the showdown.
I would also consider it a serious possibility that Rat knows more about what the Plan really is than Redcloak does.

Howler Dagger
2012-01-23, 10:01 PM
But if Rat was up for giving the Dark One a shot, he might well gamble on helping the Plan so he could get on the Dark One's side for the showdown.

My thoughts exactly. Rat is (probably) buddies with the Dark One, and it would make sense it he was in on it. It could cover why the 12 gods haven't figured out what RC+X are doing (rat is "doing it" for him).

ti'esar
2012-01-23, 10:50 PM
I would also consider it a serious possibility that Rat knows more about what the Plan really is than Redcloak does.

Good point - I have maintained for a long time that the "goblins created as XP fodder" story may not be entirely true. As such, we can't necessarily make any assumptions about how the gods and the Plan truly relate.

I'm curious, though - where was it detailed that Rat is evil?

Emanick
2012-01-23, 11:09 PM
Good point - I have maintained for a long time that the "goblins created as XP fodder" story may not be entirely true. As such, we can't necessarily make any assumptions about how the gods and the Plan truly relate.

I'm curious, though - where was it detailed that Rat is evil?
SoD Spoilers
During the SoD crayon exposition, Rat and a few other gods that Redcloak describes as Evil are shown with the Dark One.

skywalker
2012-01-23, 11:11 PM
I would also consider it a serious possibility that Rat knows more about what the Plan really is than Redcloak does.

Wait, you mean the Evil god of the goblins might not have their best interests at heart, and might in fact be playing Red Cloak?

How has RC not figured this out?!

Alex Warlorn
2012-01-23, 11:12 PM
I wonder if Tsukiko's spirit is headed straight for Rat, or to the Fiends, who no doubt would make great use of her, they need all the hands they can get. And upgrading (down grading?) her from a damned soul into a fiend is likely within their power.

Tsukiko maybe dead, but there's nothing to say Rat or the Fiends don't still have a use for her. It's just a matter of whom decides she's more useful to them.

Also, if Rat was in on the plan, and is Tsukiko's master, then Redcloak murdered Tsukiko for absolutely positively no reason and effectively BETRAYED AN ALLY!

Anarion
2012-01-23, 11:17 PM
I wonder if Tsukiko's spirit is headed straight for Rat, or to the Fiends, who no doubt would make great use of her, they need all the hands they can get. And upgrading (down grading?) her from a damned soul into a fiend is likely within their power.

Tsukiko maybe dead, but there's nothing to say Rat or the Fiends don't still have a use for her. It's just a matter of whom decides she's more useful to them.

Also, if Rat was in on the plan, and is Tsukiko's master, then Redcloak murdered Tsukiko for absolutely positively no reason and effectively BETRAYED AN ALLY!

She's definitely not in on the plan or she wouldn't have been in Redcloak's office in the first place. The conjecture in this thread is that IF Rat
a) doesn't already know about the plan and
b) happens to notice the soul of one of his clerics enough to interview it personally

Then Rat might find out some information about the Dark One that could lead to interference of some sort by the remaining gods.

dps
2012-01-23, 11:21 PM
I wonder if Tsukiko's spirit is headed straight for Rat, or to the Fiends, who no doubt would make great use of her, they need all the hands they can get. And upgrading (down grading?) her from a damned soul into a fiend is likely within their power.

Tsukiko maybe dead, but there's nothing to say Rat or the Fiends don't still have a use for her. It's just a matter of whom decides she's more useful to them.

Also, if Rat was in on the plan, and is Tsukiko's master, then Redcloak murdered Tsukiko for absolutely positively no reason and effectively BETRAYED AN ALLY!

He killed her to keep her from telling the truth about the ritual to Xykon, which from his POV is plenty enough reason, regardless of what god she might follow and that god's relationship with the Dark One.

ti'esar
2012-01-23, 11:32 PM
Actually, I'm coming to think this line of thought is off-base completely. Tsukiko may not have even worshiped an actual god as opposed to the cause of Undead Rights or something. And if she did, she's never said anything about the god. I suspect that she's just too insignificant in whatever clerical hierarchy of Rat (or whoever) exists for her death to make much impact.

The IFCC... that's a possibility, yes, but for all we know they might already know the real details of the Plan. Their goals are too opaque right now to really be discussed.

I would kind of like to see Redcloak's monologuing come back to bite him, but my gut feeling is that as a character, Tsukiko is pretty well done.

ZerglingOne
2012-01-24, 12:33 AM
I would also consider it a serious possibility that Rat knows more about what the Plan really is than Redcloak does.

The only real problem with something like this is Rat was around for the original "Snarling." I would at least guess that none of the gods that were around for that time want that thing to come back in any form. The only thing we don't really know is The Snarl's true form/intent as everything has been in questionably biased crayon vision.

Flame of Anor
2012-01-24, 12:56 AM
The only real problem with something like this is Rat was around for the original "Snarling." I would at least guess that none of the gods that were around for that time want that thing to come back in any form. The only thing we don't really know is The Snarl's true form/intent as everything has been in questionably biased crayon vision.

Depends on how competent Rat trusts the Dark One to be in controlling the Snarl.

blazingshadow
2012-01-24, 01:58 AM
i was thinking of making this very thread right now however my main concern is about Roy's father. he is supposedly scrying Gobbotopia and Xykon to warn Roy of their movements but this is information that Roy can use to kill/weaken Xykon and Redcloak by having them fight each other and deny them their future plans. Redcloak is lower level but he now has the gate spell and phylactery to somewhat even the odds if they decide to fight.

Ksyr
2012-01-24, 02:29 AM
Even if the other gods knew they couldn't interfere directly. They have rules to follow. They could send their servants to Azure city in an attempt to stop RC. Which might be just what Tsukiko was doing.

TheArsenal
2012-01-24, 02:35 AM
So ummm...There isn't any change in plan really. PREVENT GATE CONTROL is still the same.

Ancalagon
2012-01-24, 02:49 AM
Even if Tsukiko was no cleric, her souls is right now free to tell everyone who wants to listen. And when Tsukiko is angry, she has been shown to do all kinds of emotional stuff.

So it is rather likely she'll tell everyone she meets before and in the afterlife (including gods and their representatives of all levels) how mean Redcloak is.

He should have used Soul Bind. With her soul free after he told her (without any need!)... yes, this is a major screwup on his side.

Ash_Gazn
2012-01-24, 02:52 AM
It's So either Rat doesn't care and thinks that the whole thing is pretty funny, or the gods have to be actively looking to see what's going on and Rat has more important things on his mind than some Mystic Theurge with a zombie fetish.


Actually, Rat has been sympathetic to the Dark One since the beginning, specifically arguing that the gods should have told the Dark One of the Snarl to begin with. Rat might just think this entire situation is just fine, and wait to see what happens.

Spacewolf
2012-01-24, 03:52 AM
Would the gods knowing that really be a bad thing after all they might just decide to accept the terms without the DO needing to control the gates and therefore without the possiblity of letting the snarl go. The only problem then would be Xykon

Bulldog Psion
2012-01-24, 04:00 AM
I guess it all depends on how much Tsukiko focuses on what RC said about the gate, and how much she focuses on being eaten by her own "children".

That said, I've got to give RC points for remembering what he's supposed to be -- a ruthless villain with plenty of power being pushed around by a jumped-up necrophiliac twerp.

MurkyMajare
2012-01-24, 04:16 AM
I would not worry too much about Tsukiko's spirit telling anyone in afterlife though.

There are some source material that indicates that if one dies through level-drain by an undead that one's soul is trapped and does not move on to afterlife.

So Redcloak should be safe.

toughluck
2012-01-24, 04:50 AM
I wonder if Tsukiko's spirit is headed straight for Rat, or to the Fiends, who no doubt would make great use of her, they need all the hands they can get. And upgrading (down grading?) her from a damned soul into a fiend is likely within their power.
She's stupid, deranged and useless to them. Plus, she's been level-drained to 0 now. What's the point?


Tsukiko maybe dead, but there's nothing to say Rat or the Fiends don't still have a use for her. It's just a matter of whom decides she's more useful to them.
She's a nobody. If they took time to interrogate every single level 1 character entering the afterlife, I doubt she's going to be interrogated any time soon.


Also, if Rat was in on the plan, and is Tsukiko's master, then Redcloak murdered Tsukiko for absolutely positively no reason and effectively BETRAYED AN ALLY!
Rat never manifested to Tsukiko, she never obeyed him in any way, she just worshipped the 12 southern gods. That would make her an ally of the paladins, for instance. It would make paladins allies of Redcloak's, in fact, and should have just handed the gate to him.
As far as I know, gods don't manifest to people randomly to divulge their entire knowledge, so how in the blazes was RC supposed to know she was an ally? More to the point, how was Tsukiko supposed to know to betray Xykon and side with Redloak rather than oppose him?

Flame of Anor
2012-01-24, 04:52 AM
There are some source material that indicates that if one dies through level-drain by an undead that one's soul is trapped and does not move on to afterlife.

Poor Isamu :smallfrown:

Ingus
2012-01-24, 04:53 AM
Hey, guys, you're completely missing the point.

Look at the drunken clumsy bearded thug and the strange old fool who like puppies (Thor and Odin)

Gods are idiots :smalltongue:

The Pilgrim
2012-01-24, 06:11 AM
Redcloak spilling the Plan was a narrative device to inform those who haven't read SoD (and remember those who did) about the true nature of Xykon&Redcloak's relationship. Under normal circumstances, Redcloak wouldn't have needed to tell about the Plan and all that. He did so only because the Author needed the Readers informed about Redcloak's motives to kill Tsukiko.

Otherwise, there would be no sense in Redcloak revealing his 30-year-long-Secret to brag over an annoying little fly like Tsukiko before killing her. I would find it extremely lame if, later in the comic, someone came saying "I know about the true nature of the Plan because I was spying you when you slain that necrophiliac chick".

skaddix
2012-01-24, 06:23 AM
She's stupid, deranged and useless to them. Plus, she's been level-drained to 0 now. What's the point?


She's a nobody. If they took time to interrogate every single level 1 character entering the afterlife, I doubt she's going to be interrogated any time soon.


Rat never manifested to Tsukiko, she never obeyed him in any way, she just worshipped the 12 southern gods. That would make her an ally of the paladins, for instance. It would make paladins allies of Redcloak's, in fact, and should have just handed the gate to him.
As far as I know, gods don't manifest to people randomly to divulge their entire knowledge, so how in the blazes was RC supposed to know she was an ally? More to the point, how was Tsukiko supposed to know to betray Xykon and side with Redloak rather than oppose him?

They don't grab everyone but its been made clear the IFCC at least watches the players involved and their scrying has already been shown to go through cloister like its nothing and if u can get through cloister (an epic spell) then RC's defense would be meaningless. Although really if they have been watching they dont really need interrogation.

Grim Reader
2012-01-24, 07:04 AM
Do you know for certain that she is a cleric? As a mystic theurge she needs to be able to cast level 2 divine spells but there are no restrictions on what class she gets them from. Druid might be a stretch, but she could be an archivist.

This would also fit her behavior, which frequently appears unwise.

Kish
2012-01-24, 07:22 AM
She's a cleric. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8800637&#post8800637)

Faramir
2012-01-24, 08:09 AM
He made a bigger mistake than that.

Unless the wight with Thanh's shoes was the last one created said shoes will remain on the study floor just waiting for Xykon to trip over them ;)

pendell
2012-01-24, 09:42 AM
He killed her to keep her from telling the truth about the ritual to Xykon, which from his POV is plenty enough reason, regardless of what god she might follow and that god's relationship with the Dark One.

She also broke into his personal office and killed a hobgoblin there, don't forget. More than enough reason to execute her on the spot for murder.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Trixie
2012-01-24, 10:21 AM
Actually, I'm coming to think this line of thought is off-base completely. Tsukiko may not have even worshiped an actual god as opposed to the cause of Undead Rights or something. And if she did, she's never said anything about the god. I suspect that she's just too insignificant in whatever clerical hierarchy of Rat (or whoever) exists for her death to make much impact.

No. She was specifically said to be the cleric of the twelve. Also, given how powerful she were (roughly equal to High Priest of Azure City) she can't be insignificant, followers being within top 0.01% of NPCs on the planet always attract attention.


Would the gods knowing that really be a bad thing after all they might just decide to accept the terms without the DO needing to control the gates and therefore without the possiblity of letting the snarl go. The only problem then would be Xykon

Possibly.

Or, also possibly, they would declare Goblins to be pests grown out of control and would order all their followers to wage total war on them in order to make a few, or even all, of the goblinoid species extinct. Just to teach DO a lesson.


She also broke into his personal office and killed a hobgoblin there, don't forget. More than enough reason to execute her on the spot for murder.

And? :smallconfused:

In Xykon's eyes, it's about as bad as swatting a fly, while killing someone he entrusted with ritual would be about as good reason as any to declare Gobbotopia an ex-parrot.

Prowl
2012-01-24, 11:14 AM
So if another god steps in and does something, is that automatically a deus ex machina?

Kish
2012-01-24, 11:38 AM
Only if the god comes out of a machine to do it.

King of Nowere
2012-01-24, 02:25 PM
I agree that redcloak had better not told tsukiko about the plan. "I can tell you everything because you're going to die anyway" don't work in a world with a revolving door afterlife. Tsukiko may even be rezzed by Xykon (not himself, but he has the resources to find someone casting true resurrection even if redcloak somehow manages to refuse a direct order).
But rich needed a way to tell the plan to poeple who had not read SoD.

That said, I highly doubt some god was watching. Gods in oots has time and again proved to be idiots with powers far greater than what their responsability would make them fit to handle. I don't think there will be any repoercussions and redcloak will find a way to make sure tsukiko stays dead.

The IFCC may have been watching, but that's unlikely. And anyway, if the ifcc learns of the plan., it won't change their agenda.

Fitzclowningham
2012-01-24, 02:42 PM
There are some source material that indicates that if one dies through level-drain by an undead that one's soul is trapped and does not move on to afterlife.

I think that's because the person becomes an undead him/herself, which is not going to happen in Tsukiko's case.

Moriarty
2012-01-24, 03:22 PM
Wait, you mean the Evil god of the goblins might not have their best interests at heart, and might in fact be playing Red Cloak?

How has RC not figured this out?!

don't forget that the dark one got all his information from other gods, more specifically the less trustworthy gods. It's entirely possible the dark one himself doesn't know the whole deal about the gates.

TriForce
2012-01-24, 03:25 PM
No. She was specifically said to be the cleric of the twelve. Also, given how powerful she were (roughly equal to High Priest of Azure City) she can't be insignificant, followers being within top 0.01% of NPCs on the planet always attract attention.



uhm... where was she specifically stated to be a cleric of any of ) the 12 gods?
also, she never met the high priest of azure city, so im really confused how you can compare her to him

OPM
2012-01-24, 03:34 PM
My bet is that the Dark One pushes her soul into the nearby rift. He has obvious motive for doing so, there's probably one of his altars nearby, not to mention his high priest. And it totally eliminates any way of getting information from Tsukiko, which the Dark One obviously doesn't want anyone else to know.

The Cat Goddess
2012-01-24, 04:33 PM
Even if Tsukiko was no cleric, her souls is right now free to tell everyone who wants to listen. And when Tsukiko is angry, she has been shown to do all kinds of emotional stuff.

So it is rather likely she'll tell everyone she meets before and in the afterlife (including gods and their representatives of all levels) how mean Redcloak is.

He should have used Soul Bind. With her soul free after he told her (without any need!)... yes, this is a major screwup on his side.

Actually, he was required by the rules of "villianous intent" to describe his plot. The only reason that he was able to stay and watch her death was because he had already fulfilled enough "villian tropes" in the encounter already.

A Villian who never makes a mistake (like not blocking all the exits, thus allowing Nui to escape) is boring.


She's stupid, deranged and useless to them. Plus, she's been level-drained to 0 now. What's the point?

She's a nobody. If they took time to interrogate every single level 1 character entering the afterlife, I doubt she's going to be interrogated any time soon.

Uh... Energy Drain doesn't work that way anymore (not since 2nd edition).

She was given "Negative Levels". For example, when Elan was kissing Sabine, he was given Negative Levels. By making a Fortitude Save 24 hours later (or the Restoration spell cast by Durkon), those Negative Levels go away. by dying and being prevented from rising as a Wight, Tsukiko will be in the Afterlife at full level. If she's True Ressurected, then she doesn't even retain the Negative Levels because the she'd be in an all-new body.

Raise Dead, on the other hand, would still require her to make Fortitude saves to prevent actual level loss from said Negative Levels.

SoC175
2012-01-24, 04:36 PM
Would the gods knowing that really be a bad thing after all they might just decide to accept the terms without the DO needing to control the gates and therefore without the possiblity of letting the snarl go.Or they might decide to gang up on the Dark One and kill him in an epic plane shaking battle

sockmonkey
2012-01-24, 04:44 PM
I have to wonder if Tsukiko will even have the wherewithall to say anything. Her brain seems pretty much broken by this. She always seemed a bit on the edge with her obsessive love of her undead children. Having them murder her after demonstrating that they don't give a crap seems to have given her a "driven mad by the revelation" + "everything you know is wrong" moment.
(Thank you TVtropes)
Also, with the level drain, wouldn't she be showing up in the afterlife as a level 0 character? Gods tend to pay attention to the higher level players. A level 0 probably isn't gonna get an audience with them.

The Cat Goddess
2012-01-24, 04:48 PM
I have to wonder if Tsukiko will even have the wherewithall to say anything. Her brain seems pretty much broken by this. She always seemed a bit on the edge with her obsessive love of her undead children. Having them murder her after demonstrating that they don't give a crap seems to have given her a "driven mad by the revelation" + "everything you know is wrong" moment.
(Thank you TVtropes)
Also, with the level drain, wouldn't she be showing up in the afterlife as a level 0 character? Gods tend to pay attention to the higher level players. A level 0 probably isn't gonna get an audience with them.

See my editted-in comments concerning Level Drain above.

Grim Reader
2012-01-24, 04:58 PM
She's a cleric. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8800637&#post8800637)

How so? That doesn't say anything of the sort!

She has divine magic, and worships the Twelve. Now, most people in a medieval world worshipped a god of some sort. That didn't make them priests.

That statement could just as well suppor her being a Ranger, Divine Bard, Paladin, Archivist, Favored Soul, Healer, Spirit Shaman, Sha'ir, or a score of PrCs. It justs says she has divine magic and is a worshipper of the twelve.

Not that she is a Cleric specifically.

Ancalagon
2012-01-24, 04:59 PM
A Villian who never makes a mistake (like not blocking all the exits, thus allowing Nui to escape) is boring.

There's a difference between making a mistake and screwing up in the probably worst way at all.

And it's not he has had no time for pondering the option "I might kill Tsukiko one day".

He also is a cleric and knows about souls, gods, and afterlifes.

This is not some "mistake" he just made. It's on the same level catastrophic as the one Tsukiko made when she assumed Redcloak would suck this up as well.

SpaceBadger
2012-01-24, 05:03 PM
He should have used Soul Bind. With her soul free after he told her (without any need!)... yes, this is a major screwup on his side.

Yes. I'm =hoping= that Redcloak's monologue was just the Giant's way of filling in the webcomic readers who haven't read SoD on what the Plan really is, and won't come back to bite Redcloak, but the Giant seems to multipurpose things like that, so it could be both.

Gift Jeraff
2012-01-24, 05:09 PM
How so? That doesn't say anything of the sort!

She has divine magic, and worships the Twelve. Now, most people in a medieval world worshipped a god of some sort. That didn't make them priests.

That statement could just as well suppor her being a Ranger, Divine Bard, Paladin, Archivist, Favored Soul, Healer, Spirit Shaman, Sha'ir, or a score of PrCs. It justs says she has divine magic and is a worshipper of the twelve.

Not that she is a Cleric specifically.She also wishes she could turn paladins like in First Edition. That kinda implies cleric.

Thanatosia
2012-01-24, 05:46 PM
I'd say the risk of her being ressurected is the greater risk, I think the Gods already know something is up.

In Start of Darkness, when the Paladins attack RC's villiage, they reveal that they know that the bearer of the Crimson Mantle "threatens the very foundation of creation itself." I can only assume this means that even if the gods don't have 100% of the details, they at least know there is diffinately something going on with Redcloak, the Dark One, and the Snarl .

Ancalagon
2012-01-24, 05:59 PM
I think you can be fairly certain it is not only "filling the readers in". If that that was the plan, it would have been very clumsily executed and a rather powerful revelation would have been thrown out into the open without and increase in the comic-drama. Rich usually does not do these things that crudely so it surely is "more" than just filling the (non-SoD) readers in (no matter if it has further consequences or not).

We at least see that Redcloak was so angry about Tsukiko that he got carried away into doing something really stupid and unnecessary (funnily, he just told Thanh he does not do those things anyway... yes, Redcloak, you still do get provoked. You are talking too much to people you are about to kill and you're kidding yourself if you think othervise).

SavageWombat
2012-01-24, 07:17 PM
I'd say the risk of her being ressurected is the greater risk, I think the Gods already know something is up.


I'm pretty sure that Tsukiko needs a True Resurrection at this point, and the only 17th level cleric in the area would be Redcloak himself.

Alex Warlorn
2012-01-24, 10:22 PM
I'm pretty sure that Tsukiko needs a True Resurrection at this point, and the only 17th level cleric in the area would be Redcloak himself.

Maybe. But he still should have had a Soul Bind ready and used it on her corpse if he was going to kill her where she stood.

Instead this means her spirit goes to the after life instead, and Redcloak, along with almost anyone who doesn't worship the 12 gods, had grown to almost pathologically underestimate the southern deities. Any information she had will now go straight to Rat.

And that's if the Fiends (keeping an eye on Redcloak) don't decided having an extra grunt in their organization wouldn't hurt.

In short, yes, Redcloak SHOULD have used Soul Bind, he was an idiot not to, now her soul goes either straight to Rat, or to damnation where the fiends aren't dumb enough to throw away a potential grunt to add MORE interference, which, if you recall, they've made clear that they want more than anything. They WANT all the different sides going at each other as much as possible. So when they make their call on when to use V (and they said nothing about collecting their timeshare AFTER he/she was dead), everything is too screwed up for anyone to do a thing about it.

It's creepy when you realize that the Fiends are the REAL big players here. If they think they can use her ANYWAY to stir up more confusion among the sides, they'll take it!

SavageWombat
2012-01-24, 11:24 PM
Oh, I don't disagree. But Redcloak's not a sorcerer, who has all his spell options available at hand. And he clearly wasn't expecting this confrontation.

If I were his DM, I'd be very surprised if he had Soul Bind prepared on this particular day.

Tergon
2012-01-25, 12:25 AM
Honestly I'm not sure Redcloak is in that bad a situation now. One day ago, story-time, the heroes' understanding of the Big Bad Plot was:
"There is a very powerful Evil being, whose primary lieutenant is an extremely smart and powerful Goblin Cleric, who seeks to control the power of the Snarl in order to change and control the world."

I don't see what's changed, realistically. If the heroes bump into Tsukiko's ghost in the very next comic, and she tells them in full detail what Redcloak's plan is, how does it really alter what they planned to do? If anything, they might realise that letting Redcloak win instead of Xykon is a slightly less Apocalyptic scenario, which only helps Redcloak. On the other hand, they find out that the Big Bad who is ultimately pulling the strings is not, in fact, a super-powerful Lich. It's actually an Evil and extremely cunning deity. Which is... really just worse for the heroes.

Yes, the information might make Redcloak some extra enemies, and it's overall worse if those enemies know exactly what your Grand Plan is. But his enemies right now include "Everyone who is not a member or an ally of the Goblin race." And all of those enemies are currently putting the global threat he poses as their #1 priority right now, whether because he's allied to Xykon or the Dark One.

The only threat to Redcloak is if Xykon finds out this information. And to do that he'd have to speak to Tsukiko's ghost, or else speak to someone she spills the beans to in the Other Planes. The former is unlikely because, hey, it's Xykon... he's not resummoning the dead kid with the weird fetish just because she vanished mysteriously. Even if he finds out Redcloak killed her, he'd probably just wonder what took Redcloak so long to do it. And as for her telling someone in the Other Planes... we're talking about direct Divine intervention there. The Gods would already know Redcloak was planning on messing with the Gates, and worst case scenario, now they only know WHY. If they weren't going to act before, why would they now?

blazingshadow
2012-01-25, 12:49 AM
If the heroes bump into Tsukiko's ghost in the very next comic, and she tells them in full detail what Redcloak's plan is, how does it really alter what they planned to do?it's more likely that Eugene will be the one warning Roy since the plan was for him to scry on team evil and check when they will move out for the gate. this info can be used to have Redcloak and Xykon turn on each other while the OOTS finish them off

Tergon
2012-01-25, 03:11 AM
it's more likely that Eugene will be the one warning Roy since the plan was for him to scry on team evil and check when they will move out for the gate. this info can be used to have Redcloak and Xykon turn on each other while the OOTS finish them off

Assuming that Tsukiko can or does tell anyone who's able to pass on the information, or that Eugene was looking at them during that particular conversation, instead of any of the other things Team Evil is doing. And even then, the OotS have to figure out how this information can be passed on to Xykon in a way that Redcloak can't plausibly deny or claim is totally made-up... and is presented in a way that Xykon would consider it grounds to turn on Redcloak.
We've just had it laid out plain that without the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, Xykon has zero chance of getting hold of the other half of the ritual that gives him the power of the Snarl. If he kills this Redcloak, the next one will be in direct contact with the Dark One who will simply pass on the details of the plan... with Redcloak the Former's legacy to guide and inspire the new Bearer. Xykon just finds himself in the same situation with a much-less-powerful general to muster his troops.

Now, Xykon may like to act like a dumbass, but he's still smart enough to figure all this out. He's invested enough in the Goblins that he can't simply sever ties with them now, without shooting himself in the figurative foot. Just like he's Redcloak's best shot at winning, Redcloak is his. And assuming Redcloak pulls it off... the net result is that the Goblin Race has their fortunes massively improved. As a powerful leader and ally of the nation of Gobbotopia, Xykon doesn't exactly lose out there

TL;DR:
There's a lot of ifs, buts and maybes that rely on Xykon finding out the details of Redcloak's plan. And even if they do play out and Xykon gets the full juicy scoop, what exactly could he do if he did turn on Redcloak? No, I'd say that being the #1 Ally of the guys who just blackmailed the Gods is a pretty nice position to be in, and Xykon knows it.