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Kenneth
2012-01-23, 06:56 PM
{table=head] Armor | Cost | Armor/Shield Bonus | Maximum Dex Bonus | Damage Reduction | Armor check Penalty | Arcane Spell Chance Failure | Speed (30ft/20ft) | Weight
{colsp=9}
Light Armor

Padded| 5gp |+1 |8 |0 |0 |5% |30 ft./20 ft. |10 lb.
Leather| 10gp|+2 |6|0 |0 |10% |30 ft./20 ft. |15 lb.
Studded Leather|25gp |+3 |5 |1/- |-1 |15% |30 ft./20 ft |20 lb.
Ring Mail |20gp |+3 |5 |1/- |-1 | 15% |30ft./20ft |15 lb.
Chain Shirt |75gp |+4 |4 |1/- |-2 |20% |30ft./20ft |25 lb.
Wooden |10gp |+3 |4 |1/- |-2 |20% |30ft/20ft. |25 lb.
Lamellar Shirt |50gp |+3 |6 |1/- |-1 |20% |30ft./20ft |20 lb.
Gaint Spider Silk |500gp |+2 |8 |2/- |-1 |5% |30ft./20ft. |7 lb.
{colsp=9}
Medium Armor

Brigadine| 100gp |+5 |4 |2/- |-3 |25% |20ft./15ft |30 lb.
Hide| 15gp |+4 |4 |1/- |-3 | 20% |20ft./15ft. |25 lb.
Scale Mail| 80gp |+5 |3 |1/- |-4 |25% |20ft./15ft. |30 lb.
Chainmail |150gp |+6 |2 |2/- |-5 |30% |20ft./15ft. |40 lb.
Breastplate |200gp |+5 |3 |2/- |-4 |25% |20ft./15ft. |30lb.
Leather Lamellar |150gp |+5 | 5 |1/- |-3 |25% |20ft./15ft. |30 lb.
{colsp=9}
Heavy Armor

Splint Mail |220gp |+8 |0 |3/- |-7 |40% |20ft./15ft. |45 lb.
Banded Mail |250gp |+8 | 1 |3/- |-6 |35% |20ft./15ft. |45 lb.
Metal Lamellar |300gp |+7 |3 |3/- |-5 |35% |20ft./15ft. |35lb.
Platemail |600gp |+9 |1 |3/- |-6 |40% |20ft./15ft. |40 lb.
Full Plate |1,200gp |+15 |1 |4/- |-6 |35% |20ft./15ft |40 lb.
{colsp=9}
Shields

Buckler |15gp |+1 |- |- |-1 |10% |-/- |5 lb
Heavy Steel Shield |20 gp |+2 |- |- |-2 |40% |-/- |15 lb.
Heavy Wooden Shield |10 gp |+2 |- |- |-2 |40% |-/- |10 lb
Light Steel Shield |10 gp |+1 |- |- |-1 |25% |-/- | 7 lb.
Light Wooden Shield |7gp |+1 |- |- |-1 |25% |-/- |5 lb.
Tower Shield |30gp |+4 | - |- |-10 |65% |-/- |20 lb
[/table]


allrighty, this is how I use armor in my games :). Anyways if anybody has a question about the specific armors or sheidl just let em know. Ancient and Medievil arms, armor, tactics and strategies is wel.. kind of my area of expertise one reason I got so angry at WoTC for calling a Scimitar a )&%()^^$) Falchion... amongts other vast incorectly named weapons.

I changed soem of the shield weights aroudn becuase well again WOTC is dumb and the heavy stel shield is what the SPartans had (though in bronze so a bit heavier abouts 12% ish heavier to be more preicse) sorry almost went off on another rant there.

SamBurke
2012-01-23, 07:03 PM
Dat Full Plate.

ME. GUSTA.

By level 3, I am so unhittable I could face something CR+4 with ease. And it has less ASF than armors 6 AC lower!

Sure, you move 10 feet slower. If that's important to you, take a feat.

So, then, my question is... what is this balanced on and what is it used for?

Seerow
2012-01-23, 07:04 PM
Full plate's armor bonus is way too high. You can afford that at like level 3, and end up with an AC of around 27-28 without trying, which is off the rng for most anything actually attacking you at that level.

A lot of these numbers seem to follow no rhyme or reason except for "this looks about right to me". I mean looking at wooden armor compared to ring mail, it is strictly worse in every way, and the ring mail costs only 10g more.


This is before considering the problems normally inherent in armor with DR (ie penalizes more heavily people who rely on more attacks), and with some of the penalties normally associated with armor that are untouched (ie 20ft movement speed really sucks).

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 07:13 PM
Well generally my players find a LOT less gold than what is standard in 3rd ed. so.. youd have to switch that up around for yoru particular gold income for your perosnal campaigns. Plus I should also say that fidning an armor crafter who CAN make platemail is rare.. in a kingdom as large as say.. oh lets use Cormyr here. youd find MAYBE a half dozen or so that are capabel of making full Plate.


also You need to take in to account my rules For weapon DelaysHere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220003) and the rules I use for the Weapon Focus LineHere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229885).

Seerow
2012-01-23, 07:40 PM
Well generally my players find a LOT less gold than what is standard in 3rd ed. so.. youd have to switch that up around for yoru particular gold income for your perosnal campaigns. Plus I should also say that fidning an armor crafter who CAN make platemail is rare.. in a kingdom as large as say.. oh lets use Cormyr here. youd find MAYBE a half dozen or so that are capabel of making full Plate.


also You need to take in to account my rules For weapon DelaysHere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220003) and the rules I use for the Weapon Focus LineHere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229885).

Yeah, the weapon delays were a bad idea when you first posted them, they're still bad now. Even with armor as DR.

Your weapon focus feats don't seem to interact with armor at all, except as bonuses to hit/damage that have nothing to do with the core system given that most players will not have those feats.


If you are balancing with the assumption of scarcer resources, or harder crafting, those rules should be a part of the OP. Rules showing that it is very hard to craft full plate and you need a 1 in a million armorer to make it would help.

Wealth by level guidelines that are along the lines of what you expect in your games would also be helpful in this. Because as it is, saying "Increase the cost for your home campaign" doesn't work because we have no idea what level you actually expect full plate to come online.



And still nothing you posted explains why anyone would ever wear wooden armor under their system unless it was literally all there is in the world.

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 07:48 PM
SEEROW you so silly.. you do relize that not every armor is avaible 100% of the time at everysingle place in the entire world right?

take a look at our own world history and the way differing armos grew up and were devloped.

full plate comes online around 8th level ish in my campaign world well when the heroes have the money to striatgh buy it.

besdies if you noticed wooden armor has something that Leather does not.. Damage reduction so for 10 gold the same price as leather, you get 1 better armor and 1 DR over.


I need to play in your campaign world where I can be from a desert realm and be wearing Splint mail, or a place like the polynesian islands where I can rock full plate.

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 07:56 PM
I should also add that GASP!!!


some armor is actually INFERIOR to other types of if not all armors!.. unliek WoTC which ended giving every single armor the same overall bonus to ones AC ( when you combined the AC it gives and teh max dex allowed) armors have variying degress of awesomenes..

case in point SPartans VS th Persians.. you see the spartans had Bronze half plate and a bronze heavy sheild. the persians on teh other hand had leather lamaller at best and Light Wooden SHields at best. how did the spartans mange to kick butt. yes their training and no surrender code was a BIG plus, but the fact thay had spierer armor was not a negligable factor.

SamBurke
2012-01-23, 08:15 PM
I should also add that GASP!!!


some armor is actually INFERIOR to other types of if not all armors!.. unliek WoTC which ended giving every single armor the same overall bonus to ones AC ( when you combined the AC it gives and teh max dex allowed) armors have variying degress of awesomenes..

case in point SPartans VS th Persians.. you see the spartans had Bronze half plate and a bronze heavy sheild. the persians on teh other hand had leather lamaller at best and Light Wooden SHields at best. how did the spartans mange to kick butt. yes their training and no surrender code was a BIG plus, but the fact thay had spierer armor was not a negligable factor.

Yes, there are superior armors and inferior armors. However, that is only relative to what you want to do. I choose my armor based on a balance: how much Dex do I need? How much armor can I afford? I get the most AC affordable within my Dex range. That's simple enough.

However, this system throws that off a little, and I don't think it will work in standard worlds.

Perhaps, with homebrew worlds designed for this, it'd work. However, in most campaigns, finding a person to BUY the armor from is not a problem, since having it made is a rare option: and, if present, it's not hard to find someone to do. That's in traditional iterations of DnD. Again, this may work for your situation. What me and Seerow are trying to say is that this just doesn't work for normal, vanilla (and/or Wizard/Druid/ubercharger)-flavored Dungeons and Dragons.

Seerow
2012-01-23, 08:18 PM
SEEROW you so silly.. you do relize that not every armor is avaible 100% of the time at everysingle place in the entire world right?



I should also add that GASP!!!


some armor is actually INFERIOR to other types of if not all armors!.. unliek WoTC which ended giving every single armor the same overall bonus to ones AC ( when you combined the AC it gives and teh max dex allowed) armors have variying degress of awesomenes..


I didn't say everything needs to be available everywhere all the time. What I did say is you need guidelines, and that your stuff should be mechanically balanced. As it is, your armors are not balanced. They are unbalanced drastically in favor of certain armors. If those better armors are only available in one place, then PCs will make it a point to be from that place so they can get it, or will try to travel to those places. Because nobody wants to be stuck with inferior crap.

Remember, this is a game, not a real world. If an armor is objectively worse than another armor in every conceivable way, the armor that is worse will never get used. Some trash NPCs might wear it, but if that's all it's there for why bother even statting it up like something that might be useful. Creating trap options is not good for the game. You don't need to give everything the same AC bonus, but things that have less AC should have some other perk to offset it.


besdies if you noticed wooden armor has something that Leather does not.. Damage reduction so for 10 gold the same price as leather, you get 1 better armor and 1 DR over.


The comparison was to ring mail, not leather. But even for leather, you have 4 more max dex than the wooden armor. You're not just getting 1 dr, you're getting 1 DR and restricting yourself to a total armor of 4. 4 AC for a point of DR? Not a good trade hardly ever.

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 08:20 PM
You have too look at more than just how much AC and max dex give syou as well, things like check penalty and cost factor in as well.

even in stardard D&D there are some armors that youd never purchase simply becuase a better armor at an equivalent price or near equivalent price exist.

I guess I coudl go change teh price of the Full plate to mm what do you think 2.8K sound good?

there was a reaosn why the nobles had plate and the others had padded and chain.
EDIT: the max dex onw ood armor is incorrect allow me to fix it.. and why would you compare an armor that is twice as expensive as another and then complain about them 2 not bieng blanaced. that makes no sense to me.

Seerow
2012-01-23, 08:26 PM
You have too look at more than just how much AC and max dex give syou as well, things like check penalty and cost factor in as well.


10gp doesn't make a difference. I don't care how wealth poor your campaign is, if you have armor prices at an average of 100gp for just medium armor, either you are screwing the crap out of every melee class ever, or anyone can afford the 10gp difference in light armors.

and Wooden armor has worse ACP than the ring mail. The ring mail is also higher max dex, lower ASF, and once again only 10gp more.

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 08:31 PM
and Wooden armor has worse ACP than the ring mail. The ring mail is also higher max dex, lower ASF, and once again only 10gp more.

wait.. so paying MORE money to get a better type of armor is wrong?

Seerow
2012-01-23, 08:35 PM
wait.. so paying MORE money to get a better type of armor is wrong?

When it's a measely 10gp and it is a huge gulf in the armors? Yes.

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 08:37 PM
You logic makes even less sense to me than it normally does.. becuase what i understand is this

' X costs more than Y, but Y is better than X and it should not be. the cheaper stuff should be better than the more expensive stuff.'

Seerow
2012-01-23, 08:46 PM
You logic makes even less sense to me than it normally does.. becuase what i understand is this

' X costs more than Y, but Y is better than X and it should not be. the cheaper stuff should be better than the more expensive stuff.'

No. X should be equal to Y unless there is a major difference in cost. 10gp is NOT enough of a cost difference to warrant such a huge gap in quality.

If Ring Mail cost 200gp and was strictly better than the wooden armor, that might be okay given the price ranges demonstrated for your armors. (For a difference that big in normal D&D I'd go for more like several thousand GP. People pay 9000 gp for +2 max dex and 3 lower ACP, consider that for a second). A 10gp difference even in an extremely wealth poor system is negligible.



But really all you've done is strawman the points I've made while ignoring the majority of the argument. So until you actually address something, I'm done.

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 08:48 PM
on of these day 'probly at the end of the existance of the universe you'll eventually have something ncie to say to me. Im not holding my breath though.

Seerow
2012-01-23, 08:54 PM
on of these day 'probly at the end of the existance of the universe you'll eventually have something ncie to say to me. Im not holding my breath though.

I'd be happy to praise your work once you post something praiseworthy. Of the homebrew I've seen, it tends towards the poorly thought out and lacks any pretense of balance, generally worse balanced than what 3.5 already is by default.

The fact that much of your work also happens to border on topics that generally interest me leads to me posting my disagreements rather than just ignoring you like I do with most others.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-01-23, 08:55 PM
on of these day 'probly at the end of the existance of the universe you'll eventually have something ncie to say to me. Im not holding my breath though.

Perhaps. But, while I may not be as persistent as Seerow about saying it, he's right. You have some serious imbalances in these, which doesn't really work in a supposedly balanced RPG. In some cases, it's even more than just an imbalance: any PC who has Heavy Armor proficiency *will* be wearing Fullplate, full stop, no exceptions.

Past about level 4-5, gold cost under about 2,000 is effectively meaningless, so that ceases to be a factor.

Further, this doesn't really revise any issues that armor has. It just creates a more complicated and less balanced version of the funky AC system that already exists.

I want to like it, but I can't justify it at the moment. Note that this isn't supposed to be a caustic critique, but rather an honest one from someone who has a lot of experience with game balance and homebrew balance. You've added complications and more minor imbalanced (and one or two major ones) without actually adding anything that helps the system function better. That's not good design, so I can't endorse this revision.

What problem were you trying to fix?

Kenneth
2012-01-23, 09:07 PM
What i want was to make seerow happy so maybe I shoudl just post " need seerow's approval before I post anthng' in any of my homebrews from now, I already have it in my next thing which is more of a ' hmm would this work?"

what I really wanted was to make AC from Armor a factor again, right now past lvl 4 your getting hit no matter what your AC is at least 1 attack around form the guy who is attacking you, I wanted to alleivate that problem and make armor AC a bit more.. uh.. imposing


but mostly I love how seerow alwasy finds his way inot my homebrews and I can alwasy count on him to say " X is bad do it this way"

Seerow
2012-01-23, 09:16 PM
Except in this case I have explicitly not told you how to fix things. I've just told you what you have is clearly not balanced.

You don't need my approval to post anything. I have no power over you. But you have to accept if what you post is objectively bad, you will get responses telling you it's bad. If you don't want to accept feedback telling you what you can improve, then you have no reason to post.



As for the problems you wanted to fix, your fix doesn't actually make armor AC any better. At high level, even a character wearing your beefed up full plate will be hit all of the time. Anyone wearing anything else will still get hit all the time just like before. You did nothing to fix the scaling issues with armor, all you did was unbalance armors even more than they were at the start.

Samm
2012-01-23, 09:25 PM
No. The better stuff should be more expensive than the worse stuff, but the increase in expense should be large enough to make it balanced.

What I don't get is why Studded leather is more expensive and exactly the same as Ring Mail except for a 5lb on the Ring Mail. Who wouldn't get Ring Mail?

Also, shouldn't Metal Lamellar have a lower Arcane Spell Failure Chance? It's currently exactly the same as Full-Plate and it's Armor Check Penalty is one less.

Edit: On the note of being hit every round, Save or Suck spells and all kinds of spell-casting shennigans are probably far worse than being hit by monsters at high levels. Fast Healing and other tricks can account for damage taken (such as Crusader). Heck, even the Tarrasque is only dealing 4d8 + 17 on its nastiest attack. That's on average 35 damage. At around level 20 your fighter is going to be able to take hits like that. The Dungeon Master's Guide reckons he'll have a max HP of 175, so he'll be able to take 5 hits before he drops.

What you're really worried about is being scared off by the Tarrasque's Frightful Presence.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-01-24, 12:58 AM
what I really wanted was to make AC from Armor a factor again, right now past lvl 4 your getting hit no matter what your AC is at least 1 attack around form the guy who is attacking you, I wanted to alleivate that problem and make armor AC a bit more.. uh.. imposing

Alright. That said, you haven't achieved it. With the exception of the crazy +15 bonus from Fullplate, your AC won't be any more than a point or two higher with this system, which has additionally added complexity by having more armor types (many of them not balanced against the rest...a system designed to have intentionally weaker options isn't, in my mind, a good system), and adding damage reduction into the mix.

I'm all for slightly more effective armor (and I like seeing Damage Reduction), but consider this: Armor still scales badly. At 1st level, those extra 1-2 points (or the extra +7 in the case of Fullplate) will make a character really hard to hit, but at higher levels, where bonuses are so huge in scope, it actually won't make that much of a difference, since most first attacks are almost auto-hits anyway.

That's how D&D is written, and why the iterative attack exists: melee characters who don't hit feel like they've wasted a turn, and being relatively confident that the giant dragon will hit you at least once, and that you'll probably hit it at least once, are probably good things for the guy wading into combat. He threatens it, and it threatens him. Raise armor *to* high, and D&D combat falls apart...why swing a sword if your chance to hit isn't that much greater than the chance of the wizard one-shotting it? That situation is a problem even with the current system, which favors hitting over the one you've proposed.

Even assuming you want to make hitting less common, the armor scaling is a big issue. Perhaps a better solution would be to give a scaling bonus to AC based off of Base Attack Bonus, making a Fighter wearing light armor able to dodge with the best of them, while a Fighter wearing heavy armor instead becomes a walking tank, shrugging off blows with ease. Add, say, +1/2 or +1/3 Base Attack Bonus (rounded down, minimum 1) to a character's AC, and you'll see their defenses scale with level, making them harder to hit at high levels without making them impossible to hit at lower levels. Then just keep the existing armor types. Alternatively, remove magical enhancements to armor (keeping those that aren't numerical AC bonuses), reduce granted AC by 1/2, add DR equal to the amount of AC removed, and grant a flat bonus to AC equal to, say, 1 + your Base Attack Bonus. Now full combat classes are even BETTER at avoiding blows, and it further flattens the AC curve across levels.

All of those solutions are simpler than re-balancing all the armor, and, since they're applied equally to all characters based on Base Attack Bonus, it's easier to figure out how they'll affect gameplay, rather than having to see which armor is superior to which other armor, and balancing armor costs to the benefits gained.



but mostly I love how seerow alwasy finds his way inot my homebrews and I can alwasy count on him to say " X is bad do it this way"

Please don't call specific people out in the homebrew forum (there's no rule against it, I suppose, but it's just not polite). It makes the forums a much less friendly place to be, in my opinion. Seerow might be critical, but, from what I've seen of his comments, he's rarely critical without some sort of reason. If you can't take critique, the homebrew forums might not be the best place for you...some of us are rather brutal with our reviews. Most of us (almost all) don't mean anything personal by it: that's just how we critique things.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-24, 01:53 AM
I have to agree with Djinn and Seerow here, I'm sorry to say. I understand what you're trying to do, but I don't think it'll work. I'm not going to discuss armor-verses-armor balance at all, since that's not the biggest concern.

The basic problem with trying to 'fix' AC with armor is scaling-- or, rather, the lack thereof. I would expect to see everything short of platemail online after only one or two sessions, and full plate by level 3, no matter what reasonable restrictions you put on it. "I won it from a noble in a joust." "I killed a dude and had a blacksmith fit it to me." "I spent a month in [city] waiting for [legendary blacksmith] to make me some." The only way to keep players from getting it becomes DM fiat, which is not a good thing.

Any fix which relies on the armor itself is going to be wildly skewed towards the low levels. Recommended wealth-per-level increases almost exponentially as characters level up (and it's worth noting that the game is balanced around everyone having this much money to spend on gear). By level 4 or 5, you've reached a point where the price tags on mundane goods are more-or-less negligible.

Adding more points to armor? Great! They're going to show up at the very beginning of the game, where things are close to balanced already, and it's already quite possible to make a very hard-to-hit tank.

By the time the problem you're trying to address (to-hit bonuses far exceeding AC) comes into play in the mid-levels, the base cost of armor is so small you literally don't notice it.

The real reason for the discrepancy is that to-hit bonuses scale with level, and AC does not. The best solution is, as Djinn suggested, to make AC scale with level. 10+ 1/2 BAB + (armor/dex/etc) would work just fine.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, or if you feel like people are being unfair. I know I don't mean to be, and I doubt the other posters do, either. We're giving the best advice that we can.

Kenneth
2012-01-24, 02:28 AM
I get what you are all saying. but still i just want to point out 2 things

1) soem armors an soem wepaons are just BETTER than others this is true for anygame ever created and in real life. Im sorry that some can't wrap their heads around that concept.

{Scrubbed}

Samm
2012-01-24, 02:39 AM
1) soem armors an soem wepaons are just BETTER than others this is true for anygame ever created and in real life. Im sorry that some can't wrap their heads around that concept.

I would like to respond by saying that in a game of fantasy, you aim to have everything well-balanced so that all build options are viable. Nothing should stand-out as massively overpowered and there should be fairly decent reasons for taking any option. Unfortunately, it's really hard to avoid creating gimp options, but as a homebrewer, your job is to make as few of them as possible.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-24, 02:41 AM
1) soem armors an soem wepaons are just BETTER than others this is true for anygame ever created and in real life. Im sorry that some can't wrap their heads around that concept.
This is true. However, game design tends to be simpler than real life. Players are going to buy the most effective item on each "tier" of proficiencies and ignore the rest. I'm not saying that it's good or bad to have inferior choices around, I'm just trying to explain the reasoning.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Can't help you there. It's not worth getting worked up over-- this is the internet, after all.

nonsi
2012-01-24, 02:57 AM
2) i am a bit osrry at what I have said at Seerow, ist just dang man.. it seems like the guy makes it a pointt o spend 3 or 4 pages in my homebrews to say ' this is bad, you are wrong'

I'll join the quire and say: this is bad, you are wrong.

This isn't personal, just an educated opinion of experienced players.
Your Full Plate armor will make all non-touch attack opponents a non-challenge. The encounters will degrade from "what do I need to do to survive" to "I wonder how long it's gonna take me this time to kill it".

Suspense is essential to keep the game alive.
Your Full Plate armor is a suspense killer.

You shouldn't even consider going higher than +10 - and such an armor should carry heavy penalties.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-01-24, 08:05 AM
1) soem armors an soem wepaons are just BETTER than others this is true for anygame ever created and in real life. Im sorry that some can't wrap their heads around that concept.

This is true, yes. I'm well aware of this fact...aware of it enough to point out discrepancies in even your posts (Spartans, for example, didn't actually have Bronze shields. The bronze was, at best, a fairly thin layer over a leather and wood shield, used because it added a bit of deflection for projectiles and because the thing metal would twist and grab at swords and spears that hit it, basically disarming your foe.). However, that doesn't mean that a *game* should offer options which are *strictly worse.*

An RPG must be designed with some balance in mind. That's why it's a game rather than a real-life simulation. Players want to play *special* characters, and thus want them *well equipped*. Having options that just are not good works counter-productively to this goal, and adds complications that only serve to trap inexperienced players in sub-optimal choices.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Firstly, can't you guys work that out through PMing, rather than calling him out on the forums? :smallconfused:

Secondly, I can sort of see why that's a problem. You've had at least two pretty damn good balance guys (Seerow and myself) point out a number of issues with this, and I've offered you a number of possible alternatives and explained why they work better...and you haven't addressed those points yet, which makes me wonder if they hit home or if you are ignoring our input. This isn't about Seerow's existent or non-existent dislike of your work, but rather about some actual critique and input that you don't seem to be taking in.

From me, at least, it less "this is bad, you are wrong" and more "This isn't good from a game design standpoint, here are the reasons, here are some possible alternatives." I hope that comes across, and that you see why I'm saying what I am.

Simply put, you're adding both complications and traps for inexperienced players, without fixing the problem you set out to fix. Your actual design intentions aside, how can that be good design? Again, this isn't a personal attack: it's meant to help you produce better quality homebrew in the future. Understanding why good design choices are good and poor design choices are bad will help you produce better homebrew in the future.