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View Full Version : Redcloak versus Xykon, straight up fight (possible spoliers)



Yaminsoul
2012-01-25, 12:46 PM
I apologize if this has been posted about before, but I was not able to find it.

I am curious, now that we know that Redcloak has access to 9th level spells and quite possibly has a ring of Death Ward, how do the boards think a fight between RC and Xykon would go, GIVEN what we know about them and their personalities?

THIS IS NOT intended to be a "the optimized battle plan would be...," thread as Rich has clearly demonstrated that his characters do not follow this 'metastory' type logic. Thus saying that it would be best for Xykon to use a scroll to gate a Balor in to help him is not particular reasonable considering we have never, to my knowledge, seen him summon anything in his battles. RC on the other hand....

I will chime in with my thoughts a bit later....

Gullintanni
2012-01-25, 12:50 PM
Hmm...well, I think RC might use his resources better, but we know Xykon is an epic level Lich Sorcerer. That means we've got ECL 17 R/C vs. ECL 25+ Xykon. RC's in the underdog position for sure.

DreadPirateDB
2012-01-25, 12:55 PM
The fight would probably be decided by how quickly Xykon could figure out that RedCloak has the ring. After that, the Superb Dispelling, followed by Maximized Energy Drain combo puts RC into a losing endgame.

If he can't figure it out quickly (and Xykon is notoriously bad at noticing things in a fight), RC has a chance to gate in enough demons to take him down.

Kish
2012-01-25, 12:58 PM
Xykon would smash Redcloak flat. It would be as one-sided as Tsukiko's recent "fight, if you can call it that" with Redcloak.

blazingshadow
2012-01-25, 12:59 PM
redcloak does have a goblin army behind him so i wouldn't count him out but it is an uphill battle for him

Velarias
2012-01-25, 01:01 PM
I think it would go something like this.

:xykon:
Energydrainx3-4
METEOR STORM

Redcloak is smart but a straight up bar room style brawl (as in no ambush or trickery) with Xykon is suicidal. Dorukan tried the gate thing and we know what happened to him.
Edit. The goblin army wont even come into play they cr is so low as to be negligable.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-25, 01:07 PM
redcloak does have a goblin army behind him so i wouldn't count him out but it is an uphill battle for him
The army is literally irrelevant. The low-HD mooks would cower before Xykon's fear aura, the ranged attackers wouldn't be able his to pierce his damage reduction, and the casters would have to figure out his immunities in order to bypass them.

Jubal_Barca
2012-01-25, 01:14 PM
The thing which could really take Xykon to pieces would be taking Xykon to pieces. Grappling, lots and lots of grappling. Admittedly you've got to get close enough, which is the problem.

Emulgator
2012-01-25, 01:17 PM
Right here, right now? Redcloak is propably out of all 8th and 9th level spells. Let's assume something like this:
Day has passed.
Xykon teleports.

Now for interpretation:
:xykon: Sup, bitches, I'm home! And I know who guards the Gate!
:redcloak: Hello Lord Xykon.
:xykon: Hey, where is the other meatbag? Tohiko or something? I want to see what she figured out.
:redcloak: Well, about that... Miracle!
:elan: What? I breathe? I live? What have you done you bastard?
:redcloak: Sorry, the Dark One lost interest in you. Also he gave me the exact worlds I need to convince Draketooth about our cause. You are worthless now.
:elan: I WILL MURDER YOU! MAXIMIZED ENERGY DRAIN!
:redcloak: So, funny story. I'm protected against it. Are you against implosion/disintegrate?
:elan: <dies>

That's pretty much the only situation when Redcloak wins against Xykon in close future i can think of, and I'm not sure if Miracle can do that. If Xykon stays boney - he wins. Unless Miracle could do something about him, an given the connection with he Dark One I assume he has it all maxed oout.
Or Redcloak could toss the army against him, but I doubt he'd do it. Unless he' be absolutely sure eveything works out.

Fish
2012-01-25, 01:18 PM
Redcloak is the best-informed person on Xykon's battle tactics and spell list.

Xykon has less experience watching Redcloak fight, or what the Crimson Mantle does (or doesn't do) when its bearer is attacked. If Redcloak has any edge at all, that would be it. Of course, we know Redcloak has been attacked in the past, and we haven't seen any special effects of the Mantle, but we (and Xykon) might find ourselves surprised.

Yaminsoul
2012-01-25, 01:18 PM
Sigh, learning to spell in titles is important...

I agree about the army...though the one thing they could do (the clerics) is heal RC before dying....at least a bit.

I wonder if Xylon made the ring (which is quite possible.) If he did, amusingly, he only has about a 50% of dispelling it...at least as how I read the rules.

A couple things I think people are overlooking is that RC can keep casting Death ward, even if after the ring is suppressed, and can heal after meteor swarm unless he is ko'd in a round. That, plus he will actually summon stuff, which Xylon seems not prepared to deal with, especially if his tactics involve damage and drain.

And yes, I am fully aware that this fight, if it occurred, would go "exactly as is dramatically appropriate for the story" I also assume this would take place when both were at full spells, and RC is at least a bit prepared.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-25, 01:27 PM
The thing which could really take Xykon to pieces would be taking Xykon to pieces. Grappling, lots and lots of grappling. Admittedly you've got to get close enough, which is the problem.
You also have to save against or be immune to paralysis. And you actually have to beat Xykon's grapple check, which at 13+ BAB isn't terrible. And even if you grapple him you will still have to deal with Still spells (Xykon cast Still Meteor Swarm in the fight with Darth V). Grappling, even if done by a summoned elemental, isn't the way to go here.

Ancalagon
2012-01-25, 01:31 PM
Actually, Xykon would start as totally smug, taking the first round whatever Redcloak does to him. That probably fails (unless it blocks Xykon from teleporting out).

The second round, Xykon would start with an Energy Drain, which fails due to Redcloaks preparation or the Ring he now got from Tsukiko. Redcloak gets this free again.

Xykon follows with meteor swarms, meta-magiced other spells, or epic spells.

Redcloak can try to summon things in advance but in a straight fight with both being full, this would be Redcloaks only chance to have a chance of winning.

I said before that Redcloak can be a threat to Xykon. But in a straight out fight, both starting full (as "straight out fight" implies)? No, Xykon smashes Redcloak (after two rounds of getting hit by stuff) and then does a Soul Bind on what is left.

Yaminsoul
2012-01-25, 01:49 PM
Though I should make clear, buff spells that have hour per level, or even 10 minutes per level, duration are fair game, as Xylon has already shown that this is part of his Standard Operating Procedure.

The other thing that makes this actually much harder is that we don't know what magical items both are wearing, beyond a few, or what abilities the Crimson Mantle gives its wearer.... A few powerful items (say, one granting freedom of movement or fire immunity to RC) could make a huge difference.

Ancalagon
2012-01-25, 01:54 PM
Though I should make clear, buff spells that have hour per level, or even 10 minutes per level, duration are fair game...

As for Redcloak's buffs Xykon has to point his finger at him and say "Superb Dispelling" - and that would leave Xykon with at least and probably two epic spell slots and all his normal spells still to use.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-25, 01:55 PM
If magic items are in play Xykon gets another big advantage. Redcloak spends his time supervising a bureaucracy. Xykon spends all day eight hours a day, every day crafting magic items, and in the fight with Darth V implies that he keeps most of them for his personal use. His WBL is also several orders of magnitude higher than Redcloak's, if such guidelines matter.

Heksefatter
2012-01-25, 02:03 PM
Redcloak has no chance in an actual fight against an epic level lich. In any sort of confrontation, Redcloak would have to rely on trickery or alternate forms of leverage, such as exploiting the phylactery somehow.

Since Redcloak is fully capable of such a thing, it is certainly possible to have a dramatic confrontation, but not based on individual power levels.

Ancalagon
2012-01-25, 02:14 PM
edit: never mind. ;)

NerfTW
2012-01-25, 02:34 PM
Xykon would win instantly. He's epic level. Redcloak is not. Redcloak simply would not be able to keep up in a fight long enough to survive alone against an epic level lich.

And as for "not optimized", we do know for a fact that Xykon has spent 8 hours a day crafting magical items, specifically to counteract any weaknesses he has. (As evidenced by his ring protecting him from his own Meteor Swarm spell) So Xykon would, in fact, be extremely optimized at this point.

dancrilis
2012-01-25, 02:45 PM
Let us make two assumptions:
1. Xykon is level 26 at least, and a Lich.
2. Redcloak is level 17, and a Goblin.

...
That should really sum it up from a rules perspective.


From a plot perspective it is a bit different, as the winner will (I would hope obviously) be decided by the plot.
For an example of this see Roy vs Xykon.
Or O'chul taking the Phylactery (baring ranks in Slight of Hand this would not be possible, as the DC is 20, and untrained you cannot attempt anything with a DC higher then 10), even with the ranks it would be likely difficult for him.
As such this cannot be fairly called.

From a behaviour perspective outside of set rules and plot.
Redcloak would not engage in this unless he was confident of winning.
Xykon has shown himself to be a master of manipulation, subtlety and obfuscating stupidity at times.
Ultimately I believe that Xykon is better at the above then he Redcloak is at preparation, and as such I think this will likely go to Xykon after he explains that he knows all about Redcloak's plans, and has for decades.

Psyren
2012-01-25, 02:55 PM
Miracle and Gate (a sensible use of the latter, not the pitiful showing in SoD) are pretty much Redcloak's only chances here. A lesser response gets him cornho stomped.

Gullintanni
2012-01-25, 03:13 PM
Let us make two assumptions:
1. Xykon is level 26 at least, and a Lich.
2. Redcloak is level 17, and a Goblin.


Level 26? As far as I can tell, Xykon is at least level 21, but nothing he's done has demonstrated that he's any higher than that. I have no troubles believing he's higher than 21 (and indeed I think he's probably 22-24) but even then that'd be more of a gut feeling than anything else...there's certainly no conclusive evidence (that I've found) to establish a minimum level higher than 21.

Which makes his minimum ECL 25.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-25, 03:15 PM
Level 26? As far as I can tell, Xykon is at least level 21, but nothing he's done has demonstrated that he's any higher than that. I have no troubles believing he's higher than 21 (and indeed I think he's probably 22-24) but even then that'd be more of a gut feeling than anything else...there's certainly no conclusive evidence (that I've found) to establish a minimum level higher than 21.

Which makes his minimum ECL 25.
He needs have at least thirty ranks in Spellcraft in order to know Superb Dispelling. This puts his minimum class level at 27, since skill ranks are capped at class level +3. As far as we know, all these class levels are in Sorcerer. Level adjustment thanks to the Lich template pushes his ECL even higher.

EDIT: but Geekery threads need pre-approval and a curator, so let's not turn this into an unauthorized one.

Gullintanni
2012-01-25, 03:26 PM
He needs have at least thirty ranks in Spellcraft in order to know Superb Dispelling. This puts his minimum class level at 27, since skill ranks are capped at class level +3. As far as we know, all these class levels are in Sorcerer. Level adjustment thanks to the Lich template pushes his ECL even higher.

EDIT: but Geekery threads need pre-approval and a curator, so let's not turn this into an unauthorized one.

Fair enough but I do want to comment that the rules on Epic spells state:

"Because epic spells require Spellcraft checks, a spell is beyond the casterís ability if the final Spellcraft DC is greater than 20 + the spellcasterís Spellcraft modifier."

Bolded for emphasis. Modifier =/= Ranks.

SamBurke
2012-01-25, 03:32 PM
If magic items are in play Xykon gets another big advantage. Redcloak spends his time supervising a bureaucracy. Xykon spends all day eight hours a day, every day crafting magic items, and in the fight with Darth V implies that he keeps most of them for his personal use. His WBL is also several orders of magnitude higher than Redcloak's, if such guidelines matter.

Do realize that that means he's created.... one item? Two? From the epic level books. Now, if he spent time optimizing, he'd get his CL up with Ioun stones and the like, but we see he doesn't.

Remember, it's a full day per ONE THOUSAND GP. Now, with an expensive ring or something useful to an epic level magic user, that'll take nearly a year. So, he's made one item. ONE.

It's not a major factor.

Kish
2012-01-25, 03:50 PM
Level 26? As far as I can tell, Xykon is at least level 21, but nothing he's done has demonstrated that he's any higher than that. I have no troubles believing he's higher than 21 (and indeed I think he's probably 22-24) but even then that'd be more of a gut feeling than anything else...there's certainly no conclusive evidence (that I've found) to establish a minimum level higher than 21.

Multiple epic feats.

I'm not going to calculate how many, because, yeah, doing that would put me on shaky ground, but I will note that he's demonstrated at least one 12th-level spell slot (Maximized Energy Drain). You don't get a 12th-level spell slot at level 21.

Firest
2012-01-25, 03:59 PM
It's not impossible (and is even likely) that both Redcloak and Xykon would be knocked out early, in which case the fight would become a battle of the contingency plans.

Raimun
2012-01-25, 04:02 PM
Who is this Xylon?

It's written "Xykon".

Jubal_Barca
2012-01-25, 04:07 PM
I think this will likely go to Xykon after he explains that he knows all about Redcloak's plans, and has for decades.

If this were the case, why on earth would he still be allied with Redcloak? Why would he have asked Tsukiko to look at his half of the ritual? It's pretty crucial to the plot that he doesn't know.

SinsI
2012-01-25, 04:22 PM
Multiple epic feats.

I'm not going to calculate how many, because, yeah, doing that would put me on shaky ground, but I will note that he's demonstrated at least one 12th-level spell slot (Maximized Energy Drain). You don't get a 12th-level spell slot at level 21.

That just tells us he has a greater Metamagic rod of Maximize Spell.

Since Redcloak created X, he might know a spell or two that can seriously incapacitate X by reversing his Lich transformation.
We also don't know all the abilities of his Mantle - it might i.e. boost his caster level for the purpose of Control Undead - so that Xykon is in Redcloak's palm without knowing it.

Kish
2012-01-25, 04:29 PM
That just tells us he has a greater Metamagic rod of Maximize Spell.
:smallsigh: I do hope that "us" isn't meant to include me.

Gullintanni
2012-01-25, 04:33 PM
Multiple epic feats.

I'm not going to calculate how many, because, yeah, doing that would put me on shaky ground, but I will note that he's demonstrated at least one 12th-level spell slot (Maximized Energy Drain). You don't get a 12th-level spell slot at level 21.

Strictly speaking, this is the argument that always sold me on the idea that Xykon was above 21. It's possible that he Maximized his Energy Drain with Metamagic reduction or a rod though. We can't really know.

For what it's worth, I believe Xykon is above 21 as it's the most likely scenario...it's just by no means guaranteed.

King of Nowere
2012-01-25, 04:42 PM
In a straigth up figth, Xykon wins. he's just much more powerful.

If redcloak could prepare enough, with hordes of summoned creatures available nearby, lots of buff spells, and a surprise round, then I would say he can actually make it.

The sensible strategy for xykon would be to open with a superb dispelling, followed by level draining. assuming redcloak get a surprise round, he would have 3 rounds to kill xykon. however, we've seen that xykon tend to go for level draining first. he rarely bothers with dispelling. in an actual figth, xykon may waste some precious rounds casting spells top which redcloak is immune.
That gives redcloak a few extra rounds to kill xykon.
In the end, the difference would be made by the exact nature of the items oof xykon. withh the rigth spells, redcloak has no problem killing xykon in 3 rounds. mass heal would be nice, as it would harm xykon and heal redcloak. but maybe xykon is immune to that. Xykon is immune to almost everything. in the end, probably the best way to hurt him would be with physical damage. And i don't know what kind of creatures exactly redcloak can summon.

too many variables. but iff redcloak has preparation, i say the battle could go either way.

dancrilis
2012-01-25, 04:51 PM
If this were the case, why on earth would he still be allied with Redcloak? Why would he have asked Tsukiko to look at his half of the ritual? It's pretty crucial to the plot that he doesn't know.
This would be a matter for the story, he may be working to subvert the ritual to his own needs, he may have used Tsukiko to test Redcloak's loyalty, or Tsukiko loyalty.
It is crucial to Redcloak's plan that he doesn't know, however the plot can exist independently of Redcloak's plan, if the plot shows that Xykon has been planing to subvert the ritual and used Tsukiko to get Redcloak to admit the function of the ritual while he felt safe then that is fully in character.


Who is this Xylon?

Xylon is a greek boys name and could refer to a number of people, however it is likely that due to the proximity of the 'l' and 'k' letters on some keyboards that the author intended Xykon.
This assumption is what the majority of the posters on the topic seem to be adhering to, I hope that this make the topic somewhat clearer for you.


That just tells us he has a greater Metamagic rod of Maximize Spell.
No it doesn't it tells us that Xykon is capable of casting a Maximised Energy Drain and nothing else, the assumption that he has a rod, or that he has the feats are merely assumptions.
However I feel that it is a more logical assumption to take it that he has the levels until the rod is specifically mentioned, rather then assume that he has a rod and it has not been shown or mentioned.
Using the latter logic allows for any justification for anything, i.e Xykon cannot cast spells he merely has a significant amount of items that allow him to appear as though he can.

Blas_de_Lezo
2012-01-25, 05:46 PM
Who's this Xylon everyone keeps talking about in so many threads?

Kish
2012-01-25, 05:54 PM
Who's this Xylon everyone keeps talking about in so many threads?
A relative of Xyrkon, Zykon, and Xyklon the Consequential.

Ancano
2012-01-25, 07:54 PM
I'm sure Xykon has some broken epic spells up his sleeve. He'd win hands down.

Ubiq
2012-01-26, 03:32 AM
Per Start of the Darkness:


:redcloak: THIRTY YEARS I'VE HAD TO PUT UP WITH YOU! It ends now!
:xykon: Oh, it sure is a shame that REDCLOAK IS DOUBLECROSSING ME.
:redcloak: What are yo-
:mitd: OMNOMNOMNOMNOM
:xykon: Don't forget about-
:mitd: BLARGH!
:xykon: Okay, ew. You, Redcloak II, go get me a bucket of soapy water. You, take this robe to the drycleaners. AND SOMEBODY FIND THAT TEEVO REMOTE! My stories are on!

Incom
2012-01-26, 07:17 AM
^This makes me think RC's best shot probably involves turning the MITD on Xykon. Xykon implied that it's more powerful than he is, and if O-Chul is any indicator (and if RC was around for any of that subplot) it probably isn't that difficult.

Kyoda
2012-01-27, 03:10 AM
As has been said several times before, straight up fight: Xykon wins.

More likely to occur in story fight: way closer than people have been saying (in my humble opinion.) I think Redcloak has a real shot at taking down Xykon even one on one. Why? 3 reasons.

1) Surprise. If Redcloak is going to attack Xykon he's going to do it when Xykon's not expecting it. Even just one surprise round can make a whole lot of difference.

2) Knowledge/Preparation. I'm putting these together because they're very inter connected. Preparation is worthless without knowledge as is knowledge without preparation. Redcloak likely knows exactly what Magic items Xykon has and is smart enough he might be able to get some of the more important ones away from him, for example (SoD spoilers)
his ring which is likely a ring of positive energy protection or something similar.

3) Positive Energy spells. (For the SoD based argument against this see above entry.) Heal kills liches dead. I'm can't even venture a guess as to Xykon's Hp but I'm pretty sure it's less than 340. That's the amount Redcloak would do with two successful Heals (assuming failed will save.) Now that he has access to Mass Heal I don't think landing two of those before dying would be too difficult for Redcloak.

Now if Xykon surprises Redcloak, Redcloak's positive energy spells are ineffective, or (SoD spoiler) the MitD is near enough to interfere Xykon squashes Redcloak.

Cranica
2012-01-27, 03:29 AM
Re: Xy's level: we know he's been epic since SOD, and he's won a lot of very high-CR fights since then - epic wizard, druid, the entire Sapphire Guard, the entire Sapphire Guard as ghosts including a ghost version of the epic Soon Kim, Darth V, whose effective level was so astronomical as to probably give a level in her own right, every monster in his tower, etc etc. I don't find 27 an implausible level at all, and it's probably a bad idea to assume he has an item that's never been shown (like, would we say "V doesn't know explosive runes, s/he just casts it from a scroll every time"?)

/end geekery

Anyway, Xykon v Redcloak would be very one-sided if Xykon took the fight seriously (c.f. the first few rounds with Darth V), which I think he would. Redcloak would be a very personal betrayal by someone he knows to be dangerous, I suspect Xykon would use all the resources at his disposal.

Also, re: Miracle, I don't think it can do that. Miracle generally duplicates existing spell effects in one form or another, and the Ressurection spells are very clear that they cannot ressurect undead creatures. Of course, the Dark One can kinda cheat using Miracle, but it would be a cheap solution dramatically and therefore I think pretty unlikely.

Subzero008
2012-01-27, 05:29 AM
Miracle and Gate (a sensible use of the latter, not the pitiful showing in SoD) are pretty much Redcloak's only chances here. A lesser response gets him cornho stomped.

I'm not familiar with DnD, so can anyone explain a better use of Gate that the way Dorukan did?

Ancalagon
2012-01-27, 05:32 AM
Actually, if you go by the rules, the ECL of "Darth V" was not that high. Yes, for CR the levels stack but if you calculate the ECL and consider the "four characters in one" a group of four characters, you get (for estimated levels 15, 21 (barely epic), 23 (a bit epic), and 28 (Haerta was "the strongest by a fair bit") and ECL of like 27ish to 29ish. And that was WITH the necromancer.
Without the necro at the fight you get like (24ish to 26ish (depending how you value the remaining two casters)).

That is well, well within Xykon's region! Plus you have to substract a lot from that ECL as all the powerful casters were restricted to one body (one set of HPs, one instead of multiple targets to deal with, lame midlevel saves, HPs, etc) so while Darth V had a Character Level of wazoo (probably in the region of 60+) but only an ECL of 25 minus the weak base creature.

Before this ventures further into class and level geekery territory, we should stop here. But the ECL of Darth Vaarsuvius was a lot lower than one would consider (and even lower than Xykon's level).

On the other hand: One would be right to question if ECLs even make any sense in these regions and with this powerful casters. But the comic seems to proof the estimations here are not that far off.

Aidjn
2012-01-27, 05:50 AM
That just tells us he has a greater Metamagic rod of Maximize Spell.

Since Redcloak created X, he might know a spell or two that can seriously incapacitate X by reversing his Lich transformation.
We also don't know all the abilities of his Mantle - it might i.e. boost his caster level for the purpose of Control Undead - so that Xykon is in Redcloak's palm without knowing it.

We never see any rod. It COULD be there, but it's use-activated and Rich generally if not always shows us stuff like that (Nale's wand of enervation, potions, etc). Since we don't see it, it's more likely Xykon simply is that good.

Killer Angel
2012-01-27, 06:23 AM
Who's this Xylon everyone keeps talking about in so many threads?

I believe it's a skeletal undead sorcerer that doesn't make use of rouges.

Kish
2012-01-27, 06:27 AM
3) Positive Energy spells. (For the SoD based argument against this see above entry.) Heal kills liches dead. I'm can't even venture a guess as to Xykon's Hp but I'm pretty sure it's less than 340. That's the amount Redcloak would do with two successful Heals (assuming failed will save.)

Not quite, but close enough. However, assuming Xykon would fail his best save twice is a huge assumption on its own.

Ancalagon
2012-01-27, 06:59 AM
Actually, we can estimate Xykon's HPs pretty accuratly as he has no con and so many levels that it's already becoming statistics. He has a d12 as hitdice, which is 6,5 on average per level, the first level is probably full. His class does not matter as he's a lich.

So for Xykon being level 25 to 30 we get ~170 to ~200 HPs. Redcloak only needs one successful and one failed Heal (well... and one spell to finish it off). Even two failed Heals and one "other spell" could do the trick but somehow I strongly doubt Xykon would go on ranting to allow Redcloak to cast more than one "Spell That Means Business" (for example Heal).

_Jarlaxle_
2012-01-27, 07:27 AM
If I remember right I read here in this forum that Xykon compelled the Monster in the dark magically to devour Redcloak if he ever moves against Xykon.

So I really see no chance for Redcloak to move openly against Xykon even if he somehow manages to overcome the powergap between them too.

AJ11
2012-01-27, 07:31 AM
Not quite, but close enough. However, assuming Xykon would fail his best save twice is a huge assumption on its own.

Heal caps at 150. He'd have eat 3 of them and fail 2 in order to undie if he has 340 hp.

Extremely unlikely, to say the least.

If you want to attack him via his strongest save, I'd suggest Undeath to Death. He only has to fail once and he is gone.

Ancalagon
2012-01-27, 07:34 AM
Heal caps at 150. He'd have eat 3 of them and fail 2 in order to undie if he has 340 hp.

See above. There is no way he can have 340 HPs. He would need 28 levels and none of his d12s must have shown less than 11.

AJ11
2012-01-27, 07:42 AM
See above. There is no way he can have 340 HPs. He would need 28 levels and none of his d12s must have shown less than 11.

Depends. Desecrate gives another +2 hp/HD, and an item of continuous Desecrate is about 6k, I believe. And this item exists in one of the splat books...

luc258
2012-01-27, 07:53 AM
I think Xykon is a lot better prepared for a betrayal of Redcloak than most people give him credit for.
We already know about the MITD trick, but furthermore about the SOD event with the ring.

Not only did he purchase the ring, he also was sensible enough to actually observe Right-Eye to know about the dagger and the impending betrayal in advance.
That makes me think that Xykon actually has quite a lot of knowledge about Redcloak's capabilities and magic items. He probably has a few counters for them as well.

Ancalagon
2012-01-27, 07:55 AM
Depends...

It'd still end up at 230 to 260 HPs, which is still like 100 or so short of 340 and within the reach of one successful + one failed + one last spell. So nothing changes about the quality of the discussion here.

Of course it is possible to stack and stack more extra-rules (bordering to abuse) on and on until Xykon hits 340 (or a bazillion) but OotS-characters have been shown to be "only a bit optimised" if at all. Xykon seems to be the person who would optimise things but I think we should draw a line where the "rules make no sense anymore" if the "intended" HPs (or whatever) are exceeded by 50 to 100% (yes, this is the old question of "is everything allowed and within that rules that is technically possible with the rules" and the extension of "... and if we consider supplementary books as well" and we are hitting different philosophies on viewing the game and its rules).

You could argue that using such items is the same as any living character using Con-items though. But boosting to 300+ still seems like a stretch in what is "supposed to be".

Gullintanni
2012-01-27, 08:33 AM
Depends. Desecrate gives another +2 hp/HD, and an item of continuous Desecrate is about 6k, I believe. And this item exists in one of the splat books...

You don't even need an item of continuous Desecrate. Desecrate bestows the HD bonus at creation, so if Xykon was created as a Lich in a Desecrated area he automatically has +2hp/HD forever AFAIK.

Umberhulk
2012-01-27, 10:38 AM
They won't fight until the world is actually in danger of the snarl being unleashed, and the order of the stick is bearing down upon them. Besides, redcloak has to live long enough to kill durkon.

Psyren
2012-01-27, 10:53 AM
I'm not familiar with DnD, so can anyone explain a better use of Gate that the way Dorukan did?

There are three uses for Gate: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)

1) Establish travel between two planes. Not much use in a fight of course unless you're using it to escape, and then only if you (a) run somewhere you can get backup if your evil aggressor follows you (e.g. an Upper Plane) or (b) immediately shut the door behind you and hope he can't/won't follow.
2) Call and command a number of extraplanar creatures/outsiders totaling your caster level.
3) Call a single outsider/extraplanar creature, totaling your caster level x2.

SoD spoilers:
Dorukan did the second one, which is why he failed. A swarm of mooks is simply (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedshirtArmy) not effective (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu), especially when doing so literally cuts the spell's power in half.

Compare use 3: Even if Redcloak is only 17 (the minimum level to use 9th-level spells) that would give him absolute control over a 34HD outsider. If he has any caster-level boosters at all (very likely at level 17) then this limit increases even more. Now, it's pretty unlikely that Xykon is this high, so already he's outmatched. And Redcloak, depending on his Wisdom and items, can do this multiple times, plus cast spells of his own while Xykon is occupied. And just about anything he calls at that level will have its own magic or magical abilities.'

Say he calls a low-level abomination like a Chichimec (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#chichimec) (27HD.) Already he doesn't have to worry about Xykon's signature attacks, because they're immune to energy drain and mind-affecting. They're resistant to the elements, immune to electricity, have a ton of HP, fast healing 10, blindsight AND true seeing at will, a 200ft. perfect fly speed and a +39 grapple mod. And it can communicate with Redcloak telepathically.

Or with +1 caster level, he could call a Phane, which could itself summon another Xykon to the fight.

As for Miracle, it can theoretically do anything RC/ the Dark One wants. There is no perversion clause as with Wish, though the DO can simply say no.

Gullintanni
2012-01-27, 11:33 AM
3) Call a single outsider/extraplanar creature, totaling your caster level x2.


Per the errata, is this still correct? I thought the errata changed gate to eliminate the x2 component.

Tanuki Tales
2012-01-27, 11:38 AM
If this were the case, why on earth would he still be allied with Redcloak? Why would he have asked Tsukiko to look at his half of the ritual? It's pretty crucial to the plot that he doesn't know.

He's just screwing around with Redcloak or is pulling a Xanatos Gambit?

Ancalagon
2012-01-27, 01:27 PM
As for Miracle, it can theoretically do anything RC/ the Dark One wants. There is no perversion clause as with Wish, though the DO can simply say no.

I disagree. I think Miracle can only do what the god can grant. Therefore, it cannot do something the god can't do (especially: the god cannot cast a spell that comes... from himself to get something done he cannot do himself).

That there is no perversion-clause in Miracle is because it is weaker than Wish.

Tanuki Tales
2012-01-27, 01:32 PM
That there is no perversion-clause in Miracle is because it is weaker than Wish.

I think that's a case by case basis thing.

I mean, even when Gods were given stats in Deities and Demigods, some of their salient divine abilities alone were more powerful than the Wish spell.

And if they're kept without stats, they're as powerful as the DM wants them to be.

Gullintanni
2012-01-27, 02:04 PM
That there is no perversion-clause in Miracle is because it is weaker than Wish.

Wait what? Miracle can do literally anything that Wish can do, as long as the action requested is not in specific opposition to the Deity's portfolio. A god of death couldn't grant a True Resurrection through Miracle, but a god of death could grant a request for 25,000 gp or a magic item, just as is the case with Wish.

In addition, Miracle can be used to duplicate any spell of level 7 or lower that, again, is not directly in opposition to the Deity's portfolio, and it can do it without an experience cost.

Given a choice between the two spells, I would take Miracle every. Single. Time.

Ancalagon
2012-01-27, 02:15 PM
As I read the spells, Wish is not limited by what the deity can do. That is, right now with our example here, a very mattering factor.

Steward
2012-01-27, 02:18 PM
Can a Miracle really turn Xykon into Elan? I don't really understand how that was supposed to work -- if Redcloak can turn Xykon into anything (as per Miracle duplicating Polymorph Any Object, I assume) why choose another arcane spellcaster, even a bard? Wouldn't it be safer to change Xykon into a roach or a moth or something that would be much more vulnerable and unlikely to escape?

Gullintanni
2012-01-27, 02:31 PM
As I read the spells, Wish is not limited by what the deity can do. That is, right now with our example here, a very mattering factor.

Here's the restricting text in Miracle.

"In any event, a request that is out of line with the deityís (or alignmentís) nature is refused."

So what is not in the Dark One's nature? Resurrecting humans? Probably out of the Dark One's nature. Resurrecting hobgoblins? Not so much. Flattening Azure City? That would probably have been in the Dark One's nature to do. Making the same request with a Wish spell would likely have resulted in the scale model of Azure City in the throne room being crushed. Because it has a "screw you" clause.

Basically, anything that'd be inside the scope of a deity's wishes is fair game for a Miracle. You know what the cool thing about that is? Typically a Cleric's wishes are synonymous with the wishes of his deity, so, as long as you, the Cleric could justify a given action in service to your god, then you're probably going to see success when asking for a Miracle for the same action.

You know, as long as you're not asking for something blatantly stupid like Wee Jas to open a colossal sized portal to the Abyss on the prime material. The Stern Lady dislikes Chaos. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2012-01-27, 03:46 PM
I disagree. I think Miracle can only do what the god can grant. Therefore, it cannot do something the god can't do (especially: the god cannot cast a spell that comes... from himself to get something done he cannot do himself).

That there is no perversion-clause in Miracle is because it is weaker than Wish.

Even assuming your second sentence is even correct - without data on the DO's divine rank, we have no way to know what he can or can't do.

Your last sentence has no basis in the rules at all. If anything Miracle is stronger - it costs 0 XP to do the majority of the listed things that Wish can do, and anything not listed, rather than being subject to perversion or limitation, is merely left up to the deity in question and an XP cost assessed.


Per the errata, is this still correct? I thought the errata changed gate to eliminate the x2 component.

The PHB errata doesn't mention Gate at all. Where are you reading this?

From what I can see - Shapechange got that nerf in the errata, not Gate.

Gullintanni
2012-01-27, 04:00 PM
The PHB errata doesn't mention Gate at all. Where are you reading this?

From what I can see - Shapechange got that nerf in the errata, not Gate.

You have no idea how much of a pain it was to try and find the errata on this computer. Work blocks so much of my internet...:smallsigh:

Anyway, evidently I was just remembering it wrong. You're right, Shapechange got the nerf, not Gate.

mroozee
2012-01-28, 03:20 AM
There are three uses for Gate: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm)

1) Establish travel between two planes. Not much use in a fight of course unless you're using it to escape, and then only if you (a) run somewhere you can get backup if your evil aggressor follows you (e.g. an Upper Plane) or (b) immediately shut the door behind you and hope he can't/won't follow.


This is immensely useful in a fight as it allows you to set up a one-way barrier from which to attack.

"The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (casterís choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.

A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not."

Redcloak could open a 20' diameter Gate between himself and Xykon (facing Xykon) connected to a positive energy plane. Anything that Xykon fires at Redcloak, such as Meteor Swarm, would be instantly shunted to the other side making it a near-perfect shield. Redcloak will need a concentration check to keep the shield up while taking other actions, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. With its range, it also makes a nice pit trap should Xykon not have his flight spells running.

Note: I treat the second paragraph's references to "creatures" as equivalent to the "anyone or anything" in the first paragraph.

Psyren
2012-01-28, 08:49 AM
This is immensely useful in a fight as it allows you to set up a one-way barrier from which to attack.

It's really not. For example, your own strategy:


Redcloak will need a concentration check to keep the shield up while taking other actions, but that shouldn't be much of a problem.

You're very mistaken on the rules. Concentrating on a spell with duration "concentration" does not require a concentration check: it requires a standard action every round. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration) Furthermore, Redcloak can't even use his swift actions to keep casting by quickening, because you can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration)

So by trying to employ this strategy, you remove your own ability to keep casting spells, which is a horrible idea when fighting another spellcaster, especially an epic one.


With its range, it also makes a nice pit trap should Xykon not have his flight spells running.

He appears to cast overland flight every morning, or have some other continuous method of flight. How do I know he is doing this? When V attacks him out of nowhere, when he has no reason to expect an attack, he's able to fly, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) despite not casting anything. At his level, one casting of overland flight lasts all day long, so he has no reason not to. And even if he doesn't, he can simply cast it once the fight starts and fly around your gate. So you end up with a 9th-level barrier that takes a single move action to get around.

Unless you plan on running through the gate, it's not a good idea.

Ancalagon
2012-01-28, 09:00 AM
Even assuming your second sentence is even correct - without data on the DO's divine rank, we have no way to know what he can or can't do.

We do have data.

If he could fiddle with the gates or the snarl on his own or re-writing reality in a in this helping regard - he would not need Redcloak for that. He'd do it on his own.
It seems ridiculous to assume he could grant something he cannot do himself as a Miracle to Redcloak. How would he even do it?

Tergon
2012-01-28, 10:01 AM
There's also one possibility in all this that I don't think has been suggested. And I'll freely acknowledge that there's no evidence for it in-comic. But still...

Redcloak is a dangerously genre-savvy guy. When he raised Xykon as a Lich, he knew exactly what he was creating - a Spellcaster of incredible power with a disregard for everything except increasing his own level of personal power. Redcloak also knew that he was doing it to trick Xykon into performing the Arcane half of the Ritual of the Snarl. And he also had to know that if Xykon ever found out he was being used, he'd squish Redcloak into a fine goblin paste, tear the Crimson Mantle to shreds, and slaughter every goblin for a thousand miles in every direction just on principle.

Now, I don't know the rules about creating undead beings like Liches. But if it were me in Redcloak's shoes right at that moment, well... I'd install a kill-switch. Runes on the inside of Xykon's skull, or a ritual to break the binding of his soul. Something to ensure that if I ever needed to, if I ever really needed to, I could stop Xykon before it was too late.

Someone who knows more about this stuff than me, answer: Is that possible? And, if so, is it within Redcloak's power to do it?

Ancalagon
2012-01-28, 10:16 AM
I find it unlikely. Redcloak underestimated Xykon until he found out after the Lich-process what horrer he had crafted for himself. No, Redcloak did think he could control Xykon by having access to the phylactery - and that is all that was to it. He only later found out how wrong he was but then it was too late.

Psyren
2012-01-28, 10:23 AM
Even were it possible, Redcloak wouldn't have installed such a failsafe; he was counting on Xykon's phylactery as the method to control him. He didn't realize then that a lich's phylactery is just a bauble while the lich is intact.

Furthermore such a trap being revealed now would be pretty bad writing; we were shown Xykon's creation process in SoD, and no such built-in failsafe was mentioned or alluded to.

Tergon
2012-01-28, 10:42 AM
Fair enough. I'll accept that if we've seen nothing to suggest Redcloak installed a kill-switch, there's unlikely to be one at all. It just seemed like the most likely way Redcloak could kill Xykon, had he thought of it when he created the Lich.

Yaminsoul
2012-01-31, 01:51 AM
Actually, the reason I posted this thread, I think a fight could be a bit more even than most suggest. One possible way it could go, using the gates as people suggested before, is like this:

RC: So you found out finally.

Xy: Wow, who would have thought you had it in you. Of course, now I am going to kill every Goblin in the world, and let you watch, but still, nice try.

RC: "Gate" (Pit Fiend Appears or something else really powerful..).

Xy: Oh look, someone has 9th level spells. How cute. Lets get read of those. "Maximized energy drain." (Note, Xy cannot actually dispel gated creatures. I amusing he knows this, and would not waste a spell here)

RC: Nope. "Gate" (second casting, either bonus from high wisdom, or scroll). 2nd pit fiend appears or epic being appears.

Xy:..."Fine. Eat meteor storm." (or he could superb dispel him OR the ring he has on.)

RC: Oh look, you have just done me some bashing damage from (8d6) but I since I know you love fire and lightening my item that I have gives me fire resist 30, as well another that gives me 30 lightening. Also "heal"

Pit fiends continue to attack, cast spells, and so forth, and they are not a joke, even for a level 23-27 litch.

RC could continually negate what Xykon was doing, by simply either casting death ward, heal, or other spells as appropriate, and lets his allies to the offensive work. True, Xykon has many more spells, but with Pit Fiends or better beating on you, even an epic Litch gets worn down. Now, Xykon could leave (unless the gated creature cast Dimensional Anchor) but that still counts as losing to my mind.
--------------

The point I was trying to make is that while Xykon is of course much high level than RC (probably between 7-12) RC has had decades to study Xykon and learn how he works, what spells he uses, and how to counter them. This counts for a lot in D and D, and can make up a huge power difference, when spell casters are involved, and they can both cast at least 9th level spells

RC is a tactician, and Xykon is not. RC has shown willingess to call powerful beings for help, whereas Xykon is an ego manic who will not. RC has ever reason is prepare in case Xykon finds out about him, Xykon underestimates him completely...

Of course there is the SoD MITD threat as mentioned but assuming this was not in play, I actually do think, with the evidence given RC would have a chance in a straight up fight. Of course, Xykon could have really powerful magic items and spells we know nothing about, but RC probably would, and could take them in account.

Anyway, as someone who has played and gm'd 3.5 alot, and likes to think about these things as they relate to the comic, these were my thoughts.

Gandariel
2012-01-31, 05:30 AM
actually Xykon would fly to redcloak, fly up and strangle him.

or cast Ghostform
or Dispel followed by meteor swarm or finger of death
Or, in case, teleport away.
(Also he does have contingency)
Xykon can't really be killed unless a lot of conditions apply

Yaminsoul
2012-01-31, 10:29 AM
Re Gandariel

1) Fly and strangle him...err, while being by Redcloak's allies? Xykon does that for fun with low level people, but can't see it as a real battle tactic. He could paralyze him with his touch attack, but RC would likely have a ring of freedom if he is super prepared...

2) Casting dispel: As said, he would have to keep dispelling, once for the ring, (and if Xykon crafted it its not a sure check) and then keep dispelling once RC keep putting up death ward, which is a 4th level spell...while being attacked by RC allies. If not Finger of Death does not work. For Meteor swarm see previous post.

3) Yup, he could teleport away. Mentioned that. But for me, that counts as losing the fight.

---------
Again, this is argument that could go on forever, but just wanted to point how tactics, preparation, and knowledge could make the fight much more even that at first glance at level or CR.