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guguma
2012-01-25, 08:30 PM
Now that 831 is published I am super confused?

1. If Redcloak were to give Xykon a phylactery anyway (does not matter if it is fake), why the secrecy with the resistance and the earthquake and killing the polymorphed goblin spy?

Redcloak is simply taking too many risks:

1. Aside from the fact that Xykon may find out about the "switch" Redcloak is putting the plan at risk if he is still trying to use Xykon as the arcane caster. The phylactery is too important to play games with and if both parties (Xykon and Redcloak) do not know everything about the phylactery it makes it all too easy to fall into the wrong hands (Team Good??)

2. If Redcloak is trying to find a way to kill Xykon and he intends to destroy the phylactery right away , we all know that Xykon can be very careless at times and is prone to die what if he dies before the plan has reached completion.

Xykon has a lot of different ways to find the truth:

1. He may simply die, or kill himself at some point.
2. Redcloak's spell DC's are probably much lower than Xykon's and Redcloak cannot cast arcane spells, what if there are arcane protections on the phylactery? and Xykon may try to damage the phylactery Redcloak gives him
3. Someone from team good (OotS, Azurites etc..) might destroy the fake phylactery at some point in front of Xykon, then kill him and Xykon will find out.

I would assume that Redcloak is protecting the phylactery even further by deploying fakes just to trouble Team Good, it would make a lot of sense but it does not seem like it, it looks like he is plotting against Xykon.

I do not understand what he is trying to accomplish.

Shale
2012-01-25, 09:40 PM
Yeah, I can't figure out what Redcloak stands to gain here. The phylactery, as we've already seen, is a fail-safe device - if Xykon is somehow defeated in combat, his soul returns to the holy symbol and slowly regenerates a new body. Controlling - or even destroying - the phylactery is useless if you can't also destroy Xykon himself. And if you can do that, he becomes helpless for as long as it takes his new body to reach the point of independent mobility, which was quite a while last time - more than long enough to secure and destroy the phylactery if that's what Redcloak wants to do. So why go to all this trouble?

veti
2012-01-25, 11:07 PM
I would guess that Redcloak himself is not sure what Xykon will do with his bauble after his recent scare. What I'd do in Xykon's place is to hide it somewhere highly secure, and not tell anyone, including RC, where it was. So if he were killed, RC would have to find it before he could destroy it.

If RC is turning on Xykon, then the wrongest hands the phylactery can fall into are Xykon's.

As for Xykon's options:
1. Dying: yeah, somehow I can't see him doing that voluntarily. And if he does, it's a game changer. A temporarily-dead Xykon has no way of stopping Redcloak from making his condition permanent.
2. Xykon aiming high-level damaging or dispelling magic at his phylactery? Again, I don't see it. Imagine the 'oops' potential.
3. Again, this involves Xykon dying.

Right now, Redcloak is in a position to give Xykon a phylactery - which will make Xykon happy - and keep the real one firmly under his eye, so that if Xykon dies before completing the plan, Redcloak has - options.

(I don't imagine RC gives a damn what happens to Xykon, or himself, after completing the plan. That's entirely up to the Dark One.)

Fish
2012-01-26, 01:31 AM
It depends on who you think is the target of this ruse.

If it's meant to fool Xykon, then Redcloak probably intends to lure him into a false sense of security, hoping to deal with the phylactery someday.

If it's meant to fool O-Chul and Vaarsuvius, then Redcloak is probably going to wear the fake around his neck and hide the real one somewhere safe.

If it's meant to fool everyone, then perhaps their plan is to loudly announce, "We're leaving the city now! If you find the thingy, send it to us immediately!" Then Redcloak can stash the fake somewhere in the city and let the hobgoblins "find" it. Anybody else who catches wind of it any remaining resistance, perhaps could spend months trying to dismantle all the protections on it, and perhaps never realize it's not the real thing.

Why would Redcloak want to keep all of this stuff secret, in that case? I don't know, but option 3) makes the most sense to me so far. He wouldn't want anybody to know the phylactery has been found if he intends to make believe it hasn't.

My personal hope is that Redcloak talked to some of his summoned demon buddies and got a really good idea where to hide the original phylactery,
on the Demi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-01-26, 01:48 PM
Here's how I see it. Redcloak is in the rare opportunity (or it seems rare to us because it hasn't been shown to us so outwardly till now) to have direct power over Xykon.

SOD Spoiler:
RC tried to control Xykon initailly by threatening his phylactery. It backfired because Xykon responed with "I can just make a new one after I crush you." Slightly paraphrased as I'm away from the book at the moment.

But now RC has the opportunity to pull a fast one on Xykon. He wants to have access to the phylactery if Xykon is destroyed. I bet RC understands that Xykon won't let him keep his phylactery as his holy symbol any more because Xykon views him as incompetent. So giving Xykon the fake allows him to keep the real one to use when the time is right. Of course there is flaws to this mainly due to the limitations of replicating the wards and what not on the phylactery that RC can't do because he's a non-epic divine caster. I doubt he will try to use the phlylactery as a leash for Xykon. See spoiler for why. But I expect him to use it to eliminate Xykon if he becomes to troublesome. His new spell level has closed the gap in their power levels by a fair bit so RC has a chance (although not a great one) of beating Xykon in a battle now. Especially if he pulls a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" switch with Team Good.

Kaemon
2012-01-26, 05:29 PM
I may get proved wrong in the next pages of the story... but here is how I see it so far...

From what we saw in SoD we know that Redcloak won't try to look for a new arcane caster, not after all the good goblin lifes that were sacrified to futher the plan, since he will never admit he did wrong when he decided to ally himself with Xykon nor get responsibility from all those Goblin's deaths, his little brother included.
On the other hand, we also know, also from SoD and some of the things that Redcloak told to Jirix, that as his brother said, Goblins will never be truly free while being minions of Xykon.

So my guess is: Redcloak knows (or suposes) that Xykon won't allow him to get access to his phylactery anymore... He knows that owning the phylactery itself is not a thread to the Lich, since its useless unless he is defeated first; and he wouldn't even destroy it after the Lich was destroyed because he can't backup on his deal with Xykon at this point (SoD for more info)...
So what he really wants to acomplish is... to be able to destroy Xykon (or instruct someone else to do so) after the Gate Ritual is complete. During this ritual, Xykon could probably die along with Redcloak (has been hinted as a possibility) or maybe get destroyed by whatever plan Redcloak has, or just wait for the convenient moment.

The thing is... if Xykon hides his phylactery from Redcloak, they will never be able to get rid of him. And after doing the ritual Xykon will be UBER-PISSED to had been tricked for more than 3 decades for the betterment of the Goblin kind, not only with Redcloak, but probably with all the goblins...

So, as I see it, is not to have control over Xykon; and is not for getting rid of him and look for a new Arcane caster to perform the ritual.
Is to have a way to dispose of him when the ritual is done (if the ritual destroys Xykon's body or Redcloak figures a different way) without fearing of him regenerating to get revenge over all the goblinoids.

I can also see it as a way to instruct someone to destroy the phylactery after Xykon has been destroyed somehow if Redcloak dies first (killed by Xykon himself, or diying along with Xykon against Gate-Traps or Adventurers) so the new owner of the Crimson Matle is not forced to deal with the mad Lich. But lately I don't see Redcloak trusting anyone for anything... (AKA: Killing his own kind after a good job "to be sure").
Maybe Jirix, since he is becoming a crowd (readers) favorite?

But so far; I can't see the need to get rid of the spy that helped recovering the real phylactery from the resistance...

JDMSJR
2012-01-26, 05:49 PM
The spy knew that Tsukiko was not with Redcloak when he killed the Rebels. I think he plans to say she died when they were recovering the phylactery.

Kaemon
2012-01-26, 06:01 PM
The spy knew that Tsukiko was not with Redcloak when he killed the Rebels. I think he plans to say she died when they were recovering the phylactery.That could be it... But to be fair; Redcloak didn't know he was going to kill Tsukiko (at least not this soon) at that point; and I don't know if he is going to tell that kind of lie; but I personally think should go for a more "I don't know a damn about what she is doing" approach, instead of giving a detailed explanation of why she is not around anymore.

Anyway; I'm pretty sure I will like whatever resolution The Giant offers :-P

xroads
2012-01-26, 06:17 PM
The way I see, it if Redcloak pulls of this ruse, he can actually destroy the phylactery without Xykon being the wiser. I don't think liches have any sorta sixth sense that allows them to detect if the phylactery is still in one piece. They certainly don't have one to tell them where it is at any rate.

What would Redcloak gain in this instance? Well, whenever Redcloak does see the need to destroy Xykon, it will be that much easier since Xykon won't have his phylactery as a failsafe. And as a bonus, Xykon will probably be more careless since he wouldn't know that the actual phylactery was destroyed.

There is also a second option. If memory serves, clerics can create new spells. Wouldn't it be possible for Redcloak to create a spell that would destroy or even control Xykon through his phylactery (much like a hair sample or knowing someone's true name creates a conduit in other magic systems)? Especially since he's the one made Xykon a lich to begin with.

~XRoads

Beltaranis
2012-01-26, 06:26 PM
But so far; I can't see the need to get rid of the spy that helped recovering the real phylactery from the resistance...

I think the intervention of the resistance to steal the phylactery was part of the plan of Redcloak, having the phylactery stolen by ennemies is a good way to do the exchange without suspicions.
The role of the spy was surely to wait for that moment to warn his master. So he certainly knew RC wanted to crush the resistance exactly the day they would have stolen the phylactery, not before. He already knew too much.

Kyoda
2012-01-26, 07:38 PM
I'm not sure Redcloak's "up to" anything in the sense most poster's here are discussing. I think it's much simpler and more basic than all that. To me it just seems he's trying to strengthen his position in every way he can without Xykon realizing it.

Not rezzing the goblins, killing Tsukiko, and destroying the wights all boil down to the simple (if cliche) principle of "Knowledge is Power." He may not know how he's going to use what he knows yet, but the more that he knows that Xykon doesn't the better.

Xykon's personality plays a lot into why having a fake phylactery might be a good idea. Before the incident with O-Chul and V, Redcloak guarding the phylactery had always been good enough so Xykon didn't care enough to change that. But now Xykon has been given a reason to handle the phylactery personally. Even though Redcloak realizes having the phylactery in his control isn't enough to control Xykon it's still a powerful card to hold and I'm sure he has no plans of letting it go.