Hybrid or Multiclass? Which should I do?

[MesiDoomstalker]

In this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228428)thread, I posted some elements of a character I'm working on and I decided to create its own thread so as to not detract from that thread. First some background.

This is 6th level character who's primary role is Defender. I have worked extensivly on his background and his personality but in effort to be brief, I'll sum it up in how these story elements affect and restrict my choices. He is a Mul (Half-Dwarf, Half-Human, Dark Sun Setting) who's primary method of combat is to run around the battle field drawing as much attention as possible to himself to keep the enemies from trying to attack his allies. Thus, he must be a mobile Defender. Likewise, his father has natural psionic abilities, which the character inherited so he must be psionic. Likewise, he must not be arcane at all (long story short he's a rebel against his arcane-focused clan). Battlemind seems to be the best fit for moblie Defender, but Barbarian is more mobile but lacks Defender qualities and psionics. Iniatially I was going to Hybrid these classes but from what I discovered in the previous thread it didn't work out as well as I thought.

Here is 2 (brief) builds I have designed, one Battlemind with Barbarian Multi-class and the other Battlemind|Barbarian Hybrid. A few things to keep in mind that will be true for either build. I will be using a Homebrewed weapon but for the sake of clarity, I'll refer to it as a Halberd. The weapon is identical except it is a chain instead of a polearm. Second, he will use Scalemail. Period. No exceptions. The DM already approved using Scalemail in the Hybrid without using a feat. Finally, the DM will be further modifying my character as well as the others to make sure we are up to snuff. What exactly this means is not clear and I assume how she modify's our characters is dependent on what she thinks we need help in. I will not be making assumptions on what she will modify, just something to keep in mind.

Build 1: Battlemind with Barbarian Multiclass. Speed of Thought chosen.

Stats:
Str: 13
Con: 18
Dex: 8
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 14

Feats:
1st: Quick Steps (Drag Mag 391). Increases my speed by 1.
2nd: Beserker's Fury (PHII). 1/day, increase damage rolls by +2 for encounter, Multi-class Barbarian, training in Barbarian skill (Perception).
4th: Battlewise (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms). Use Wis instead of Dex for Iniative.
6th: Psionic Iniative (Psi Power). +3 to iniative, pay 1 pp to increase boost to +6.

At 8th, I will take Acolyte Power to swap out my 2nd level Battlemind Utility for Combat Sprint (Barbarian 2nd Utility).

Powers:
1st At-Will: Iron Fist (PHBIII)
1st At-Will: Bull's Strength (PHBIII)
1st Daily: Psionic Anchor (PHBIII)
2nd Utility: Feather Step (PHBIII) this will be replaced at 8th level with Combat Sprint.
3rd At-Will: Mind Snare (PHBIII)
5th Daily: Fated Confrontation (Psi Power)
6th Utility: Psionic Ambush (PHBIII)
Also Mul's racial Power Incredible Toughness, and Battlemind's Mind Spike, Blurred Step, Speed of Thought, and Batlemind's Demand.

Skills Trained:
Diplomacy
Insight
Perception (Barbarian Multiclass)
OPEN

I don't know what to fill the final trained skill. Bluff and Intimidate are not the things the character would resort to unless absolutly neccesary. I was thinking Arcana as it would synergize with his magical background but also not because he rebels agianst them. And Atheltics is....meh? I don't have the strength to supplment it properly.

At current, I've regulated equipment to basics. +2 Darkscale Armor, +2 Magic "Halberd," +2 Amulet of Protection, and Adventurer's Kit. I'm leaving this open to suggestion but I don't know how she will give us items before the games start.

This gives me the following:
Average to-hit: +11
AC=23
Fort=19
Ref=15
Will=21
HP=64
Speed=6
Iniative=+10 (There will be a Rogue with high Dex and Improved Iniative, and his bonus hovers somewhere around +9 through +11 so me and him will be going first alot. I build this character partially to supplement this Rogue. I know how he is played and how to compliment it (which fits wihth my charcter perfectly). With Psi Iniative, I can boost it to +13.)
Surges=14
Surge Value=16
Passive Insight/Perception=22 (those in my groups have the annoying tendency to have cruddy Insight/Perception checks so this is quite awesome for our group).

Build 2: Battlemind|Barbarian Hybrid

Stats:
Str: 16
Con: 18
Dex: 8
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

Feats:
1st: Hybrid Talent (PHBIII). Speed of Thought option granting Speed of Thought.
2nd: Psionic Iniative (Psi Power). +3 to iniative, pay 1 pp to increase boost to +6.
4th: Battlewise (Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms). Use Wis instead of Dex for Iniative.
6th: Improved Speed of Thought (PHBIII). Speed of Thought's movment is increased by 2.

Powers:
Psionic Defense: Mind Spike (PHBIII)
1st At-Will: Iron Fist (PHBIII, Battlemind) Replaced.
1st At-Will: Pressing Strike (PHBII, Barbarian)
1st Encounter: Shout of Terror (Primal Power, Barbarian)
1st Daily: Swift Panther Rage (PHBII, Barbarian)
2nd Utility: Combat Sprint (PHBII)
3rd At-Will: Harrier's Dance (Psi Power)
5th Daily: Fated Confrontation (Psi Power)
6th Utility: Psionic Ambush (PHBIII)
Also Mul's racial Power Incredible Toughness, and Batlemind's Demand.

Skills Trained:
Diplomacy
Insight
Perception

At current, I've regulated equipment to basics. +2 Darkscale Armor, +2 Magic "Halberd," +2 Amulet of Protection, and Adventurer's Kit. I'm leaving this open to suggestion but I don't know how she will give us items before the games start.

This gives me the following:
Average to-hit: +8/+9 (Barbarian Powers/Battlemind Powers)
AC=23
Fort=20
Ref=13
Will=19
HP=63
Speed=5
Iniative=+9 (Same as above, wth Psi Iniative, I can boost it to +13.)
Surges=13
Surge Value=14
Passive Insight/Perception=21 (Same as above).

So those are the two builds. As I have them built right now, Mutliclassing seems to be the much stronger but I'm rather inexpierenced with 4e so I might be missing something important. Please point out any flaws in my logic or stronger choices within the "mobile Defender" theme. Thanks in advance!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Go multiclass. Hybrid was pretty much built for the optimizers. It's like a 3.5 wizard, except it can only go up to tier 3 and it's a lot harder than just preparing Overland Fight and Contingent Dimension Door.

Also, don't paragon multiclass. You can draw on a wider variety of options when leveling up in the paragon tier, but those powers are at best as strong as a paragon path's powers, and without the extra class features. The only time you want to paragon multiclass is when
A) You're qualifying for an epic destiny
And
B) When the DM won't let paragon hybrids count as paragon multiclassing (because at the point you choose to paragon multiclass, you might as well switch to hybrid)

[Reluctance]

Wait just a cotton-picking second. Your DM will cheerfully tweak RAW for her sense of how the game should be played. (This being a poor move for a newbie who doesn't know what RAW is like at the table, but that aside.) This might be nuts, but wouldn't it be more efficient to just allow you to say Combat Sprint is a battlemind power?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wait just a cotton-picking second. Your DM will cheerfully tweak RAW for her sense of how the game should be played. (This being a poor move for a newbie who doesn't know what RAW is like at the table, but that aside.) This might be nuts, but wouldn't it be more efficient to just allow you to say Combat Sprint is a battlemind power?

She isn't tweaking to how she thinks it should be played. Supposedly one player wishes to play a character idea that is "too powerful for heroic tier." She refuses to start us higher than heroic tier so she comprimised by tweaking this character to be fun for the player. Presumably this meant jumping up his power. So the tweaking I and the other players get is to keep pace with the other player. I know what RAW for 4e is, I've read PHI rather thouroughly and most of the DMG. I just haven't had much expirence in play or anything directly outside of CORE.

And yes, that could be a tweak. But I don't know how she will tweak, what she wants to tweak, etc. So I'm going on the assumption my character will be played strictly RAW and adapt with the DM's tweaks when she determines what they are. If I start assuming what she will tweak and in what ways, and I'm wrong, my character won't work properly because I assumed wrong. Assuming RAW will be easier to adapt to than assuming the wrong "fixes."

I trust her, she's a great DM and friend and knows what she's doing. She is making sure everybody is equally powered and not lagging behind. Likewise, she will tweak monsters, up or down, to make sure they are a proper challenge (or no challenge at all in some cases). I'm a new 4e player, but I'm not a new D&D player. I know enough of 4e to get work well what I lack is the optimization tricks which is my main concern at the moment.

[Mando Knight]

Cross-quote...

Clarifcation: the point is that the enemies follow me and if I play him properly (which I probably will), the DM will make sure the enemies do. Granted it won't always work agianst enemies smart enough to know what I'm doing. I admit that this is a metagaming element that isn't reflected in the mechanics but this is the agreement me and my DM have come to.
That's not how a Defender works at all. Unless you're a Swordmage, since their marks both persist after a disengage and can be activated at range. If you're relying on the enemy to chase after you just to avoid the penalty, you'll see a major drop in your damage output (a not-insignificant portion of your DPR comes from punishing people who ignore your mark), and any monsters that ignore you can wallop the rest of the party scot-free.

As someone who's played 4e long before there were hybrids, let me tell you now: unless you know exactly what you want out of the hybrid, it is one of the few potential traps in 4e.

(Also, I disagree with the idea that a character idea is "too powerful for Heroic Tier" and can't be scaled back... unless the character depends on a setting power level that's similarly high. Then I get the feeling that the player wants to play a specific campaign, which might not be in line with what the DM wants to run...)

[MesiDoomstalker]

Mechanically, I will fail at my job if I jump around the battlefield away from my mark. I understand this. This is where my roleplaying as well as my DM's cooperation comes in. If I provoke my mark emotionally, get them to decide to chase me of their own free will (not because I'll punish them for not paying attention to me), then I'll do my job quite effectivly. I make them use up actions in the way I want them to. I assume action economy is just as important in 4e as it was in 3.5. But without the discrpenancy in which classes can most utlize a given action (Looking at you Quickened Spells).

In a game under this DM, making something up is far more powerful than having a power/feat/class/whatever that does the same thing. Saying you taunt the Halfing bandit about his hieght will draw his attention to you. He will want to prove his height is not a limiting factor. And he will do so by trying to inflict as much pain as possible on you. The person who has the highest defences and HP instead of the squishy Wizard or sneaky Rogue. In short, if you can give a (good) reason, it will happen.

On the "too powerful for heroic tier" I only relay what I've been told and can infer. I know some of this character's background and he is justifiably strong but I don't know him as intimatly as the player or the DM does (they jointly created him some 15 years ago). So I trust their judgment on the power level of their own creation.

[tcrudisi]

Mechanically, I will fail at my job if I jump around the battlefield away from my mark. I understand this. This is where my roleplaying as well as my DM's cooperation comes in. If I provoke my mark emotionally, get them to decide to chase me of their own free will (not because I'll punish them for not paying attention to me), then I'll do my job quite effectivly. I make them use up actions in the way I want them to. I assume action economy is just as important in 4e as it was in 3.5. But without the discrpenancy in which classes can most utlize a given action (Looking at you Quickened Spells).

On the "too powerful for heroic tier" I only relay what I've been told and can infer. I know some of this character's background and he is justifiably strong but I don't know him as intimatly as the player or the DM does (they jointly created him some 15 years ago). So I trust their judgment on the power level of their own creation.

First, the second paragraph. I seriously doubt there is a character that is "too powerful for heroic tier" provided you guys used point buy for stats and followed the character creation process properly. The best built heroic tier character won't really be that far ahead of a poorly built one in heroic tier. (Of course, if you are intentionally trying to make a character as bad as possible, then you will be very far behind. But the only people who do that are the players who are intentionally trying to sabotage a game.)

Now, for your first paragraph. You do not fail at your job if you bounce away from your mark, especially as a Battlemind. Guess what you get at level 7? The power that lets you bounce away from your mark. Your job is to force the enemy to make a difficult decision: attack you who has high defenses or attack your allies at a -2 and whatever other punishment you will provide. You can't control the whole battlefield, so decisions must be made.

With a battlemind, sometimes it's as simple as marking several things and then lightning rushing away from those guys to attack the one you don't have marked. Bam - you've just done a good job making sure that you protect your allies to the best of your ability. Frankly, if you mark everything on the field and then expect everything to attack you: they probably will. And one of two things will happen. 1) You die pretty darn quick because no single character should take all of the attacks. 2) You run out of healing surges pretty darn quick as your healer is good enough to keep you up, but after a couple of combats you are out of surges. All the other characters have full surges and are grumbling that you have to end the day because one character is out of surges.

You do not want to take all of the attacks. Sometimes the best thing you can do for the party is to mark a couple of monsters and then leave them. They'll be at -2 or -3 to attack your allies while you take the attacks from other monsters. That's what I call win/win.

/edit - To answer your question, the multiclass one is better. The longer the game lasts, the better it becomes. As others have said, hybrids are a trap for non-optimizers. Just a quick glance at both and I can see that the hybrid character you've made is one that does not benefit from the hybrid at all. If you want to hybrid, you have to ask yourself this question: What does hybriding get me that I cannot get from a multiclass and will it make up for all the lost class features? In most cases the answer is: it is not worth it.

Now for some friendly criticism. If you do not want any advice then please don't read this.:

Why boost Cha and Wis? Quite frankly, it appears that you've boosted Wis just to boost Perception and Initiative but Cha is your secondary. Speed of Thought is an amazing power (my favorite, actually), but you aren't giving yourself the Charisma to make it useful. Personally, I'd either make Cha your 18 and move 14 Wis to Dex or I'd move the 14 Cha to Dex and then take Persistent Harrier. Obviously, if you do either one, this changes things.

Athletics is nice. Very nice. Yes, you are bad at it. I get that. But ... there will be times when you need to climb a wall, building or tree to get at an enemy. And that +5 will help. You might actually be able to do it. As someone who has played a couple of Battleminds, trust me when I say that it is very frustrating to not be as mobile as you think you are. Training in Athletics helps.

Psionic Initiative is not worth it, especially for you. As soon as you hit level 7, your power points will go towards three things: Lightning Rush, marking monsters, and Lightning rush. Instead, just take Improved Init for a steady +4.

Wait, I just realized something... you started with Con 15 pre-racial. I have to strongly recommend against doing this. At least start with a 16. Heck, following my advice above would net you a few free points to throw into Con (instead of Dex).

Here's the thing: you need a melee basic attack that monsters will respect. Currently, you don't really have that. If I'm your DM and I realize that you don't have a MBA worth a poop? I don't care if I'm marked, I walk away from you (free OA! Oh, you missed? So sad.) and then just pound on all your allies. This is an inherent weakness for all Battleminds. Since you aren't a half-elf, there are 2 other ways to fix this. One is to point out the stupidity of this to your DM and ask for free Melee Training to fix it. The second is to take Twisted Eye (level 1 power).

Finally, I think your defenses are low for a primary defender. If you are a secondary defender (ie, someone else is wanting to tank most of the monsters while you just handle one or two) then it's fine. Otherwise, I'd really look into shoring up those defenses. Either items or feats will help but ... the easiest fix is a heavy shield. I know you want to use a 2h weapon, but why? Unless you are trying to be a striker (and Battleminds are among the fines strikers out there), a 2h weapon isn't ideal. However, I haven't read your other thread and I don't really know why you want to have a 2h'er, so if this is non-negotiable you will need to look at other items to shore this up. Boots of the Fencing Master, Shielding Blade Wrist Razers, etc.

[INDYSTAR188]

Your multiclass build is parallel to where my parties 6th level Defenders are, stats wise. I would say of your two options muticlass is much better. Having said that, you gotta play the character and you know what it is your trying to get out of the concept, so play the guy as you see fit. I hope he's a blast to play and may you slay many, many enemies :smallsmile:!

[MesiDoomstalker]

/snip I think I used the wrong words to describe the character causing the tweaking. Its not that the character designed at heroic tier will out class us. Its that the character, when designed for herioc tier of play/power, is far less powerful than the character actually is (ie, mechanics don't match character background/fluff) and/or lacks signature abilities that are unavailable in heroic.

I've seen Lightning Rush but I'm too low level to take it yet (but with so many people mentioning it, I guess I'll be taking it when I can.) From what I understand of other players and their builds, their will be two strikers who oddly have higher defences (in general) than they should. Primary Defender's they are not, but they will be the second most avaible melee target and won't be so squishy to get hit by every attack.

On Marking, I think I'm missing something. From what I understand, I mark someone and something bad happens if your mark ignores you. "Something bad" depends on the class. For Battlemind, its Mindspike which doubles back the damage on them if they attack someone else. So where are you getting a -2 to attack rolls? Is that something inherent to all marks?


Why boost Cha and Wis? Quite frankly, it appears that you've boosted Wis just to boost Perception and Initiative but Cha is your secondary. Speed of Thought is an amazing power (my favorite, actually), but you aren't giving yourself the Charisma to make it useful. Personally, I'd either make Cha your 18 and move 14 Wis to Dex or I'd move the 14 Cha to Dex and then take Persistent Harrier. Obviously, if you do either one, this changes things.

Athletics is nice. Very nice. Yes, you are bad at it. I get that. But ... there will be times when you need to climb a wall, building or tree to get at an enemy. And that +5 will help. You might actually be able to do it. As someone who has played a couple of Battleminds, trust me when I say that it is very frustrating to not be as mobile as you think you are. Training in Athletics helps.

Psionic Initiative is not worth it, especially for you. As soon as you hit level 7, your power points will go towards three things: Lightning Rush, marking monsters, and Lightning rush. Instead, just take Improved Init for a steady +4.

Wait, I just realized something... you started with Con 15 pre-racial. I have to strongly recommend against doing this. At least start with a 16. Heck, following my advice above would net you a few free points to throw into Con (instead of Dex).

Here's the thing: you need a melee basic attack that monsters will respect. Currently, you don't really have that. If I'm your DM and I realize that you don't have a MBA worth a poop? I don't care if I'm marked, I walk away from you (free OA! Oh, you missed? So sad.) and then just pound on all your allies. This is an inherent weakness for all Battleminds. Since you aren't a half-elf, there are 2 other ways to fix this. One is to point out the stupidity of this to your DM and ask for free Melee Training to fix it. The second is to take Twisted Eye (level 1 power).

Finally, I think your defenses are low for a primary defender. If you are a secondary defender (ie, someone else is wanting to tank most of the monsters while you just handle one or two) then it's fine. Otherwise, I'd really look into shoring up those defenses. Either items or feats will help but ... the easiest fix is a heavy shield. I know you want to use a 2h weapon, but why? Unless you are trying to be a striker (and Battleminds are among the fines strikers out there), a 2h weapon isn't ideal. However, I haven't read your other thread and I don't really know why you want to have a 2h'er, so if this is non-negotiable you will need to look at other items to shore this up. Boots of the Fencing Master, Shielding Blade Wrist Razers, etc.

I boosted Wis for a few reasons. More abilities and secondary effects run off of Wisdom than Charisma. Boosting Perception/Insight/Init were something I realized after that decision and took them happily. While Speed of Thought is a powerful ability, I'll be using my Wisdom modifier much more often, in battle and out, simply due to the fact that most of my abilities use Wisdom instead of Charisma. Other than mechanics, Wisdom is something this character excels at. If he had a lower Widsom, I wouldn't complain but he doesn't have a stellar Charisma. And Mul's can boost Wisdom (more important than Str besides 13 Str for Barbarian Multiclass). If I gave Cha an 18, all of my other stats would be subpar and Constitution is far mor important than any other stat for this character. I did start with 15 Con (before any boosts). And even if I did what you said, I wouldn't get any spare points to spend because my Dex is an 8. I'll fiddle with my stats and get back to you (but I have classes first).

Thanks for the advice on skills and Psi Init, I will change those accordingly.

I'm not seeing why I need a good MBA to be a Defender here. Fighters I remember get to wail on a mark that ignores them, but I don't see anything similar to that in Battlemind. They get Mindspike which simply burns them back the same damage they dealt. I'm afraid I just don't understand, can you elaborate why I need a good MBA?

In the other thread (linked in the OP), Mando posted a set of calculations to determine what is "good" defences, attack bonuses, and skill checks at a given level and given role. Based on those calculations, I need AC:23 and NAD:20 to be a "good" Defender at 6th. My AC is perfect, Fort only slighty (5%) behind and my Will is above and my weakness is Ref at 15. I don't think I can boost that too much without destroying everything else (mechanically) but possibly I could with items. On shield and board being superior than 2h for a Defender, the item is something me and the DM designed specifically for this character. I could talk to the DM to allow me to use a Light Shield, with an extra Check Penalty since I'm using my off hand for attacking too, but other than that the weapon will not be changed. The weapon is iconic of the character, just like Cloud's sword and Sephoroth's Murusame (guess who's been wanting to play FFVII recently?).

Thanks for the advice!

EDIT: I found some time before class so here is my stat rework.

Pre-racial/level bumps:
Str: 13
Con:16
Dex: 8
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Post-Racial/level bumps:

Str: 13
Con: 19
Dex: 8
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 15

I plan on boosting Con at every opportunity and alternating boosting Cha and Wis. At 8th I'll boost Wis and then at 11th both will go up to a new modifier level (18 for Wis, 16 for Cha). Or should I just boost Cha at 8th, and then Wis at 12th? Same result just a level later but with more immidiate pay off earlier. With this, my Cha isn't sooo low. Isn't great but will be enough to be boosted well enough.

[Sorcerer Blob]

On Marking, I think I'm missing something. From what I understand, I mark someone and something bad happens if your mark ignores you. "Something bad" depends on the class. For Battlemind, its Mindspike which doubles back the damage on them if they attack someone else. So where are you getting a -2 to attack rolls? Is that something inherent to all marks?

You are correct that Marking does "something bad" when the Mark is ignored depending on Defender class. In addition to that, Marking in general also hits an enemy with a nice -2 to all attack rolls that don't include you, making it more advantageous to stick with their primary/initial target, in this case, you. (Check out the Rules Compendium, pg 232 for further information about being Marked.)

[Mando Knight]

I'm not seeing why I need a good MBA to be a Defender here. Fighters I remember get to wail on a mark that ignores them, but I don't see anything similar to that in Battlemind. They get Mindspike which simply burns them back the same damage they dealt. I'm afraid I just don't understand, can you elaborate why I need a good MBA?
Opportunity attacks. The general assumption is that the mark's -2 penalty won't be able to compensate for the fact that the squishy mage is really squishy, so you need to be able to handle situations where the enemy walks away from you (thus provoking an opportunity attack). Since that's no good for most retribution abilities, you need to make the OA to keep your threat relevant. Despite having more at-wills to choose from than even the Fighter, if I remember correctly the Battlemind is the only non-Strength Defender that does not have a power that compensates for the lack of decent MBAs.

I could talk to the DM to allow me to use a Light Shield, with an extra Check Penalty since I'm using my off hand for attacking too, but other than that the weapon will not be changed.
If it's a halberd-but-not-a-halberd, talk your DM into allowing you to use it with Hafted Defense, which gives polearms the defensive bonus of light shields. Especially since you desperately need to cover that Reflex.

[OracleofWuffing]

Opportunity attacks. The general assumption is that the mark's -2 penalty won't be able to compensate for the fact that the squishy mage is really squishy, so you need to be able to handle situations where the enemy walks away from you (thus provoking an opportunity attack). Since that's no good for most retribution abilities, you need to make the OA to keep your threat relevant. Despite having more at-wills to choose from than even the Fighter, if I remember correctly the Battlemind is the only non-Strength Defender that does not have a power that compensates for the lack of decent MBAs.
Just to support all of that, keep in mind that Mind Spike only works if the mark remains adjacent to you. This is normally countered by using Blurred Step when the mark shifts away from you, thus making you still remain adjacent to the mark. However, if the mark walks away from you without shifting, Blurred Step does not trigger, and all you get is an Opportunity Attack off of what is probably your tertiary stat out of the box.

[kyoryu]

She isn't tweaking to how she thinks it should be played. Supposedly one player wishes to play a character idea that is "too powerful for heroic tier." She refuses to start us higher than heroic tier so she comprimised by tweaking this character to be fun for the player. Presumably this meant jumping up his power. So the tweaking I and the other players get is to keep pace with the other player. I know what RAW for 4e is, I've read PHI rather thouroughly and most of the DMG. I just haven't had much expirence in play or anything directly outside of CORE.


I'm going to speak up here and say that I really think your DM should reconsider. Essentially, it sounds like she wants to play Heroic, but wants to allow someone to play Paragon. And the way she's going to do this is by essentially making Heroic levels have the power of Paragon levels...

This strikes me as a fundamentally bad idea. If you want to play Paragon, play Paragon.

Rather than do this, I'd highly recommend she homebrew some powers at appropriate power levels for Heroic tier that would give the character the "flavor" they're looking for, rather than homebrewing EVERYONE up to pseudo-Paragon.

Or, just tell the player "no, this is a Heroic tier game, you need to have a Heroic-tier character."

Without knowing specifics of the character concept (of the "not-heroic-able" character), it's hard to give more specific advice. But I frankly think she's choosing the worst possible path to do this.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to talk to my DM about some of your suggestions as well as trying to fix some of the issues through RAW.

@kyoryu: I've told you all that I know of the situation. This campaign won't be for another month or so and she won't tell us more about the situation till its about to start. I may be overestimating how much she will be tweaking. It could be as simple as givin gus a slight increase in stats (+1 to-hit/AC/NAD/etc) or something similar. I just don't know.

[Sol]

Just to warn you in advance: mind spike is *not* your mark punishment power. In the entire time you level up to level 7, it will trigger...exactly as many times at the DM decides to throw you a bone. Like other people have said, there's nothing preventing monsters from walking away from you and charging your squishes other than the grace of your DM. Even at -2 to hit, your allies will be easier to hit than you are. If your DM won't give you free melee training (con), it's worth an early feat slot.

At 7, take lightning rush and never look back at mind spike again unless, say, an adjacent enemy crits an ally and you know mind spiking the damage back at it would kill it. Don't spend PP on anything else.

Between wis and cha, pick one and dump the other. Wis has more powers but cha gets more of the good ones IMO.

If you really want to hybrid, play around with a hybrid battlemind|ardent dual primary con/cha. Intent Laid Bare is not the best ardent power, but fixes the OA/MBA problem. Between the two classes, there is a large temp hp utility power at every utility power level, half of which can be granted to allies. Many ardent dailies are much better on a defender than they are on a leader, particularly the level 5 invitation to defeat.

Consider dropping the emphasis on combat sprint in lieu of The Eager Advance feat, which gives you a +4 to speed for the first turn of every encounter.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I understand the importance and power of Lightning Rush. But in the mean time (the 2 or 3 sessions it will take us to level after the campaign starts), Mind Spike is my best bet.

I've actually decided to completly drop Barbarian entirely, as it was taking up more rescources than it was giving in power. I also decided to pump Cha (its an 18 at 6th) and dump Wis (at 13).

I took a Improved Speed of thought and Quick Reactions. Which means that with SoT I move 9 squares before anyone else can than first round 8 squares. Even with Edgar Advance feat, I think it might be a bit of an overkill. The map we use to play on is only 30 squares at the longest (thats diagonally). Being able to travel almost completly across the map in the first round is a lot more than I think is neccesary. The only fight we've had so far that incorporated the whole map had many walls and obstacles that prevented me from making a bee line anyways. So I either need a smaller but more realistic movement speed or ridicoulously high movement that will quickly isolate me from my allies.

If my DM does not approve free Melee training (Con), I can drop Imp. SoT for it if need be.

[tcrudisi]

I understand the importance and power of Lightning Rush. But in the mean time (the 2 or 3 sessions it will take us to level after the campaign starts), Mind Spike is my best bet.

I've actually decided to completly drop Barbarian entirely, as it was taking up more rescources than it was giving in power. I also decided to pump Cha (its an 18 at 6th) and dump Wis (at 13).

I took a Improved Speed of thought and Quick Reactions. Which means that with SoT I move 9 squares before anyone else can than first round 8 squares. Even with Edgar Advance feat, I think it might be a bit of an overkill. The map we use to play on is only 30 squares at the longest (thats diagonally). Being able to travel almost completly across the map in the first round is a lot more than I think is neccesary. The only fight we've had so far that incorporated the whole map had many walls and obstacles that prevented me from making a bee line anyways. So I either need a smaller but more realistic movement speed or ridicoulously high movemeSnt that will quickly isolate me from my allies.

If my DM does not approve free Melee training (Con), I can drop Imp. SoT for it if need be.

So much in this post to respond to.

Mind Spike is not the punishment mechanism for the Battlemind. Oh sure, WotC says it is and it looks like it is. It's not. Plus, want to know the chance of Mind Spike triggering if you do not have a good MBA? Exactly 0%.

Barbarian will take up a lot of resources and not give enough back. But it still saddens me to see it go. Not everything has to have a benefit, does it?

Quick Reactions is one of my favorite feats for a Battlemind. Improved Speed of Thought is high up on my list, but it's not one of the first two I take. If necessary, absolutely take Melee Training there. It's the #1 feat every Battlemind should take (unless Half-Elf). Also, another feat that's high up there? Superior Will. Being able to shrug off daze and stun is vital for a class that requires its immediate interrupt to punish enemies.

I argue that Melee Training should be given for free to Battleminds. Otherwise they aren't defenders at all. Seriously. It reminds me of Monks in 3.5 and how they weren't proficient with their unarmed strikes. DM's just sort of handwaved that away. Same deal here.

The grid may not be that big, but it doesn't have to be. That movement before your opponents act is huge.

Also, you'll want to speak with your DM concerning opportunity attacks during that movement. By RAW, there's no solid answer as to whether your speed of thought movement provokes.

Argument A: As soon as initiative is rolled, it's someone's turn. Therefore, you incur OA's.

Argument B: It doesn't actually say that in the rules. You've just rolled init, it's no one's turn. If it is not anyone's turn, then OA's cannot be made.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So much in this post to respond to.

Mind Spike is not the punishment mechanism for the Battlemind. Oh sure, WotC says it is and it looks like it is. It's not. Plus, want to know the chance of Mind Spike triggering if you do not have a good MBA? Exactly 0%.

Barbarian will take up a lot of resources and not give enough back. But it still saddens me to see it go. Not everything has to have a benefit, does it?

Quick Reactions is one of my favorite feats for a Battlemind. Improved Speed of Thought is high up on my list, but it's not one of the first two I take. If necessary, absolutely take Melee Training there. It's the #1 feat every Battlemind should take (unless Half-Elf). Also, another feat that's high up there? Superior Will. Being able to shrug off daze and stun is vital for a class that requires its immediate interrupt to punish enemies.

I argue that Melee Training should be given for free to Battleminds. Otherwise they aren't defenders at all. Seriously. It reminds me of Monks in 3.5 and how they weren't proficient with their unarmed strikes. DM's just sort of handwaved that away. Same deal here.

The grid may not be that big, but it doesn't have to be. That movement before your opponents act is huge.

Also, you'll want to speak with your DM concerning opportunity attacks during that movement. By RAW, there's no solid answer as to whether your speed of thought movement provokes.

Argument A: As soon as initiative is rolled, it's someone's turn. Therefore, you incur OA's.

Argument B: It doesn't actually say that in the rules. You've just rolled init, it's no one's turn. If it is not anyone's turn, then OA's cannot be made.

I saw something, a paragon feat I think, that makes SoT movement not provoke attacks of opportunity. Ergo, the movement does provoke by RAI. But I'll still talk to her about all of this.

I fully understand that Mind Spike does not work as a punishment mechanism. But I lack the level for Lightning Rush and until the Melee Training (Con) issue is resolved, Mind Spike is what I got.

As suggested above, I'm going to take Hafted Dense but I'm not sure if its worth it. An extra 5% miss chance on AC (great already) and Ref (absolutly pitiful) doesn't seem to be worth the feat. Also, I'm going to be taking the Quick Steps feat that increases my speed by 1 (effectivly canceling out my armor's movement penalty and if I get a spare feat that, I'll take the feat that eliminates the penalty for real.) Are these bad choices for feats?

[Kurald Galain]

As suggested above, I'm going to take Hafted Dense but I'm not sure if its worth it. An extra 5% miss chance on AC (great already) and Ref (absolutly pitiful) doesn't seem to be worth the feat.
That's decent but not great, and I'd also say that +1 to speed is decent but not great. So they're okay, but there are other feats I'd take first, like any to-hit boost. Or, if you like versatility, try a multiclass feat and skill power to gain two extra encounter powers. For example, there's a fighter MC that lets you make a punishment attack 1/enc.

[Shatteredtower]

Just to warn you in advance: mind spike is *not* your mark punishment power. In the entire time you level up to level 7, it will trigger...exactly as many times at the DM decides to throw you a bone. Like other people have said, there's nothing preventing monsters from walking away from you and charging your squishes other than the grace of your DM.

There is something that prevents monsters from doing this: teamwork.

Once you flank an enemy with one of the party's strikers, that enemy does not care how unlikely you are to hit if it tries to walk away from you, nor how little damage you might do if you do hit. It's going to be worried about how much the other guy can do on a hit, even if your ally is only slightly more likely to hit than you are.

You are doing your job as a defender when you create such Scylla and Charybdis situations for your enemies. Your mind spike does its job even if your enemies never risk triggering it, demonstrating an old chess adage: "The threat is stronger than the execution."


Even at -2 to hit, your allies will be easier to hit than you are.

It's more accurate to say that they'll be about as easy to hit as you are. Light armor tends to be coupled with an AC/Reflex boosting ability score, and there are a few item and feat options to boost that further. Most leaders tend to be more vulnerable, but the effective difference for a marked enemy is about a 5% increase in the number of expected hits. When the risk of going after the more fragile opponent is the same as going after you, it makes sense to go after the fragile opponent. When attacking the more fragile opponent means risking a scratch or two, enemies are more likely to stick to the safe bet even when a metagame assessment of the numbers deems the risk acceptable.

If your DM knows that your armored and sword-wielding marker handles monsters based entirely upon the numbers (how likely you are to hit and how little damage you'll do), have words with your DM. Any opponent you have marked knows it is marked. Most, if played properly, will respond to the mark, rather than to the numbers it represents. If they choose to ignore the mark, they will do so without regard to how much or how little damage you can do.

(They might also do it because they've actively studied your performance in combat, but very few opponents will do this. It's often fine for lurkers or long term bosses, and almost nothing else.)


At 7, take lightning rush and never look back at mind spike again unless, say, an adjacent enemy crits an ally and you know mind spiking the damage back at it would kill it. Don't spend PP on anything else.

It's a useful power, but if you cannot spend pp on anything else, you've put your eggs all in one basket. The simple lodestone lure does a better job of locking down an enemy for two reasons: a) you don't need to have the target marked, and b) the costs of using it unaugmented aren't as high. It does little damage, but you're a defender: as long as you contain enemies, you've done your job. Leave the heavy hitting to the strikers. Twisted eye can be augmented for use as an opportunity attack (and there will be others at higher levels), should you ever need one... and if you use it once, how are your opponents to know when you can't use it again?

There are a lot of good 7th level powers. Body double makes it easier to set up flanks and block escape routes. Psionic speed can mark up to three targets in addition to those under the effects of battlemind's demand, making defense easier for your heavier hitters. Ego crush is the most effective anti-skirmisher tool available to the battlemind at its level, and it can be used as an opportunity action for 1 PP.

If you really, absolutely need to be able to make effective opportunity attacks all the time, it will be in a fight that calls for a daily power anyway. Select one that grants you opportunity attacks against those that will try to get away. Steel Unity Strike does more damage, but Beckoning Strike makes it very hard for most enemies to disentangle themselves from you.

Melee Training is certainly useful to a battlemind, but it is not essential to all builds. In many cases, you'll even find its a wasted feat. If you can already use an augmented twisted eye to make an opportunity attack, how likely are your enemies to keep drawing them after you can no longer afford the augmentation costs?


Between wis and cha, pick one and dump the other. Wis has more powers but cha gets more of the good ones IMO.

This is very good advice overall. Either ability will serve a battlemind well, but it is easier to get good mileage out of Charisma.

[tcrudisi]

I saw something, a paragon feat I think, that makes SoT movement not provoke attacks of opportunity. Ergo, the movement does provoke by RAI. But I'll still talk to her about all of this.

You saw a paragon path. There is a paragon path that was printed that says that your speed of thought does not provoke OA's. It's the most often-used argument.

Here's the argument against: Speed of Thought is no action. It occurs as soon as the initiative is rolled. Per the Rules Compendium (printed after that paragon path), an opportunity attack can only occur when it is someone's turn. It is not someone's turn when you are rolling for initiative, therefore no opportunity attack can take place.

The rules aren't clear one way or the other, however. But using a paragon path that was printed before the rules were printed? Not a sound argument, even for RAI.

I'm arguing against it mainly because you are arguing for it. Both ways make sense and the rules don't cover it one way or another. I wanted to make you aware that there's a lot of discrepancy with it.

With my old LFR group, there were 4 of us who were rules lawyers. Of the 4 of us, two of us thought that it did not provoke, one of us said it did, and the other basically said, "Holy crap - I don't know. If I run a SoT Battlemind then I'll just flip a coin or something."

To the MBA thing: Shattered is correct that there are ways of getting around it without melee training. I've brought up Half-Elf before though other races have ways of getting around it (Minotaur springs to mind). I also suggested Twisted Eye in my initial post. There are some daily powers that will help fix it, but frankly, they aren't optimal. Not even close. Even if you take 3 daily powers that fix it, you still end up only being able to make OA's for three combats a day. Yes, teamwork can help alleviate it ... but I don't consider that to be a foolproof method. Another way? It's expensive, but: Heavy Blade Opportunity. It requires a really heavy investment at character creation. By level 11, you will need Str 15 and Dex 15. It's a paragon-tier feat, so at level 11 you can take it to use any of your at-will powers instead of a MBA when making an opportunity attack. That's just sick. Level 13, take the power which lets you Daze at-will and you've got a truly fearsome OA. But ... taking Str 14 and Dex 14 at character creation? That hurts. And you would still need a stop-gap until then (Melee Training or Twisted Eye). Other than these methods? I'm drawing blanks on how to get an acceptable MBA.

Shattered, I think you are looking at your allies defenses through the eyes of an optimizer. When I play a defender in LFR, I expect my allies to have good defenses (or at least a way to protect themselves for a short time). When I play in a home game, I expect them to have mediocre to bad defenses, but I tend to play with people who don't know how to optimize. This is just my experience, of course, but it seems to hold true more often than not. -2/-3 is usually not enough of a difference to complete the gap between the defenders AC and the other melees AC.


If your DM knows that your armored and sword-wielding marker handles monsters based entirely upon the numbers (how likely you are to hit and how little damage you'll do), have words with your DM. Any opponent you have marked knows it is marked. Most, if played properly, will respond to the mark, rather than to the numbers it represents. If they choose to ignore the mark, they will do so without regard to how much or how little damage you can do.

I disagree. When I DM, I base it on the numbers, but not in the same way your are speaking of. If that Barbarian just hit my ally for 30 damage and the Fighter hit me for 10? I could care less about the Fighter. The Barbarian is the big threat. I understand that the Fighter is distracting me, making it more difficult for me to hit the Barbarian ... but that doesn't matter. What matters is the Barbarian is a bigger threat and I should focus on getting him down ASAP. That's a generic description and I do give them more flavor than that (so if they have a defender, they might say, "I'll hold off this shield guy while you three take out the screaming guy with the axe!"), but that's the gist of it. My point is that the numbers matter. The Defender has to find a way to make himself a more valuable target than everyone else.

[Shatteredtower]

There are some daily powers that will help fix it, but frankly, they aren't optimal. Not even close. Even if you take 3 daily powers that fix it, you still end up only being able to make OA's for three combats a day.

You mean that the powers will only grant you enhanced OAs three times per day, a very different thing. It's probably no surprise to you that I'd recommend no more than one such power to a player, along with an at-will that can be augmented for opportunity attacks. If you'd prefer to take other powers than these, I'd certainly recommend Melee Training.


Yes, teamwork can help alleviate it ... but I don't consider that to be a foolproof method.

It's a bit more foolproof than relying on your d20, don't you think? I've lost count of the times I couldn't get higher than a 5 on half a dozen rolls. At least my team wants to cooperate with me. ;)

While I agree with most of what you wrote about Heavy Blade Opportunity, there is a way to get around having to take 14 in both Str and Dex at 1st level. You'll have to play a race that can combine a Con bonus with either Str or Dex (dwarf or half-orc, for example), and you'll still have to settle for an 18 Constitution, rather than the maximum 20. With an array of 13, 16, 13, 8, 10, 15 (the last two scores can be reversed, and the 8 can be switched for whichever has the 10), you can get there by 11th level by boosting Dex at 4th level and Str at 8th (and Con at both, of course). You'll be a point behind on the best modifiers for both Con and Int/Wis, but you have rich compensation for the 5% hit in accuracy and reduced benefit from the secondary ability.


Shattered, I think you are looking at your allies defenses through the eyes of an optimizer. When I play a defender in LFR, I expect my allies to have good defenses (or at least a way to protect themselves for a short time). When I play in a home game, I expect them to have mediocre to bad defenses, but I tend to play with people who don't know how to optimize.

This may be the first time anyone's accused me of optimizing. ;) Seriously, though, if your allies do not pay attention to their defenses, I agree that the ability to mark is not as helpful as it could be by itself, and you will have to put more effort into maintaining a reliable OA.


I disagree. When I DM, I base it on the numbers, but not in the same way your are speaking of. If that Barbarian just hit my ally for 30 damage and the Fighter hit me for 10? I could care less about the Fighter. The Barbarian is the big threat.

I don't think we actually disagree on this point. An opponent can quickly become aware of who hits harder in a fight, either through observation of what's happened to their allies or by experiencing it more directly. There are times that enemy is going to think, "Okay, this guy might gut me if I don't pay attention to him, but his buddy will gut me if I don't take him down right now," though that perception may be skewed by such things as critical hits or the like.

Here's the thing, though: if your enemies are going to walk away from a battlemind to go after a striker, Melee Training isn't going to do enough damage to change their mind. The accuracy is good, but 1[W] + 1/2 Con is not an overwhelming threat even if you can dig up a few modifiers to put on top of it, not compared to the threat a striker can pose on an OA.

If an enemy must choose between drawing a striker's OA (alongside one from the battlemind) or the certainty of mind spike, the latter isn't always the worst option. You need to watch more for an enemy going after a controller or leader this way, and it's for those times you'd like to have a slightly better OA than Melee Training can give you.