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NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 01:18 AM
The Barbarian

Alignment: Any nonlawful

HD: d12
Class Skills: The barbarian's class skills are Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Tumble
Skill Points: 4+Int per level (x4 at 1st level)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Rage, Illiteracy, Totem Animal, DR 2/Silver

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Nature Sense, Totem Rage

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Totem Power

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Totem Companion, DR 4/Silver

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Totem Shape 1/day

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Totem Power

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|DR 6/Silver

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Greater Rage

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Totem Power

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Totem Shape 2/day, DR 8/Silver

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Totem Empathy

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Totem Power

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|DR 10/Silver

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Primitive Mind, Mighty Rage

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Totem Power, Totem Shape 3/day

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|DR 12/Silver

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Tireless Rage

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Totem Power

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|DR 14/Silver

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Master of the Wild, Rage of the Avatar

[/table]


Class Features: The following are the barbarian's class features.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Barbarians are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the double-sword and the lynxpaw (Races of the Wild). A barbarian is proficient with light and medium armor, and all shields (except tower shields).

Illiteracy: A barbarian does not automatically know how to read and write. He may, at any point, spend 2 skill points to learn to read and write every language he can speak. A character who multiclasses to barbarian does not lose the ability to read or write, and a barbarian who gains levels in any non-illiterate class automatically gains literacy.

Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting him additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, or Ride), the Concentration skill, or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

A barbarian can end his rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a barbarian falls unconscious, his rage immediately ends, placing him in peril of death.

Totem Animal (Ex): At 1st level, a barbarian chooses a single animal from the following list to be his "totem animal", a creature which he draws power from throughout his career. Once he makes this selection, he may not change it. At 1st level, he gains a bonus feat based on the animal he chose. He need not meet the prerequisites for this feat.


Ape: An ape totem barbarian gains the Toughness feat as a bonus feat.

Bear: The bear totem barbarian gains the Great Fortitude feat as a bonus feat.

Boar: The boar totem barbarian gains the Diehard feat as a bonus feat.

Eagle: The eagle totem barbarian gains the Born Flyer feat (Races of the Wild) as a bonus feat.

Horse: The horse totem barbarian gains the Run feat as a bonus feat.

Lion: The lion totem barbarian gains the Lightning Reflexes feat as a bonus feat.

Serpent Totem: A Serpent totem barbarian gains the Improved Grapple feat as a bonus feat.

Wolf: The wolf totem barbarian gains the Track feat as a bonus feat.


Damage Reduction/Silver (Ex): Even from the beginning of his career, the barbarian's true nature slowly starts to show through. His wounds start healing almost instantly, and yet...for some odd reason...he cries out in true pain when struck with a silver weapon. A barbarian gains Damage Reduction 2. This damage reduction is overcome by silver weapons. At 4th level, and every 3 levels after that, the damage reduction increases by another 2, to a maximum of DR 14/Silver at 19th level.

Nature Sense (Ex): A barbarian is in tune with nature, and his understanding of nature allows him to easily identify its many inhabitants through instinct rather than research. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian treats the Knowledge (Nature) skill as if it were a Wisdom-based skill, rather than an Intelligence-based skill. He adds his Wisdom modifier to all Knowledge (Nature) checks rather than his Intelligence modifier, and may make Knowledge (Nature) checks while raging. Additionally, he receives a +2 bonus to all Knowledge (Nature) and Survival checks.

Totem Rage (Ex): Also starting at 2nd level, a barbarian is able to take on the features of his chosen totem while he rages. He gains one of the following effects for the duration of his rage.


All natural weapons gained as part of this class feature are treated as primary natural weapons for the barbarian. The damage listed is for a Medium barbarian.

Ape Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Strength score, and grow a pair of claws that deal 1d4 damage.

Bear Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Strength score, and grow a pair of claws that deal 1d4 damage.

Boar Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Constitution score, and you grow a pair of tusks. These tusks can be used as a gore attack, and deal 1d6 damage.

Eagle Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Dexterity score, and you grow a pair of sharp talons on your feet. You gain two natural talon attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage.

Horse Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Constitution score, and your feet harden together to make a pair of hooves. You gain 2 natural hoof attacks that deal 1d4 damage.

Lion Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Dexterity score and you grow a pair of claws. Your claws deal 1d4 damage.

Serpent Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Constitution score and you grow two sharp, small fangs. Your natural bite attack deals 1d4 points of damage.

Wolf Totem: While raging, you receive an additional +2 to your Dexterity score and you grow some powerful canine teeth. Your natural bite attack deals 1d6 points of damage.


Totem Power (Ex): At 3rd level, and every 3 levels after that, a barbarian gains a single special bonus from his totem animal.


Ape: At 3rd level, an ape totem barbarian gains a natural climb speed, equal to one half his natural land speed, rounded down. He may always take 10 on Climb checks, even when threatened or under stress, retains his Dexterity modifier to his Armor Class while climbing, and receives a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks.

At 6th level, an ape totem barbarian gains the Powerful Build ability, which lets him treat himself as if he were one Size category larger than he is whenever it would be beneficial to him. He may use weapons one size category larger than himself without penalty, and gains an increased Size bonus to his opposed Strength checks. This bonus is lost when the barbarian becomes an ape through the Totem Shape ability.

At 9th level, while an ape totem barbarian is raging, he gains a natural rend attack (in all forms). If he hits with both of his claws in a single full attack action, he immediately latches on to his target and rips them apart. The creature takes damage equal to twice his natural claw damage plus 1 1/2 times his Strength modifier (no attack roll needed). If the ape totem barbarian is raging while in dire ape form, his rend attack's damage is doubled. (4d6+3x his Strength modifier)

At 12th level, the ape totem barbarian adds 1 1/2 times his Strength modifier to his damage rolls with one-handed weapons (including natural weapons), and twice his Strength modifier to damage rolls with two-handed weapons.

At 15th level, while the ape totem barbarian is raging, he gains the benefits of the Rapidstrike feat (Draconomicon) as a bonus feat. He applies this feat to his natural claw attack in all forms.

At 18th level, while an ape totem barbarian is raging, he grows one Size category. His gear grows with him unless it is already oversized. He receives a +2 Size bonus to his Strength score, and a -2 Size penalty to Dexterity. The ape totem barbarian cannot grow larger than Colossal with this feature. This is a non-magical extraordinary size increase that stacks with magical or psionic Size increases. An ape totem barbarian who has grown in Size does not gain the benefits of Powerful Build.

Bear: A 3rd level bear totem barbarian gains a natural swim speed equal to his land speed. He can take 10 on all Swim checks even when under stress or threatened, and gains a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks. This does not give him the aquatic subtype or allow him to breathe water.

A 6th level bear totem barbarian gains the Improved Grab ability. To use this ability, a bear totem barbarian must successfully strike a creature up to one Size category larger than himself with a melee attack. He may then start a grapple as a free action without a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity.

A 9th level bear totem barbarian gains advantages against a pinned foe. He receives a cumulative +2 bonus on his grapple checks made against a creature every round he maintains the pin, but if the pin is broken this bonus is lost. He receives the same bonus to any melee damage he deals to a creature he has pinned (the melee bonus damage is also cumulative)

A 12th level bear totem barbarian gains the Improved Multiattack feat as a bonus feat. He need not meet the prerequisites for this feat.

A 15th level bear totem barbarian can easily dispatch his opponents. Whenever he strikes the same opponent at least twice in one round, the creature must immediately make a Reflex save (DC 10+1/2 the bear totem barbarian's class level+the bear totem barbarian's Strength modifier) or be knocked prone. The bear totem barbarian receives a +2 bonus to the DC of this saving throw if he is raging.

An 18th level bear totem barbarian finishes opponents quickly. While he is raging, whenever he starts a grapple against a prone creature (even through his Improved Grab ability) the bear totem barbarian receives a +4 bonus on all grapple checks made against that creature for 1 minute, and can immediately attempt to pin the creature that round (rather than having to successfully grapple it first)

Boar: A 3rd level boar totem barbarian gains 2 bonus hit points per class level. (This bonus is retroactive)

A 6th level boar totem barbarian delivers powerful attacks at the end of a charge. The boar totem barbarian deals an extra +1d6 points of damage at the end of a charge if he is Medium or smaller, or 1d6 points of damage per Size category the barbarian is larger than Small if Large or larger.

A 9th level boar totem barbarian grows thick hide all over his body. He receives a natural armor bonus in both his true form and his boar form equal to his amount of DR/Silver. This bonus stacks with the boar totem barbarian's animal form's natural armor (but it is not an enhancement bonus) but does not stack with any natural armor the boar totem barbarian might have in his true form.

A 12th level boar totem barbarian never goes down. He gains Fast Healing equal to 1/4th his class level, or 1/2 his class level while raging.

At 15th level, the boar totem barbarian's charge attack is even deadlier. While the boar totem barbarian is raging, when he successfully strikes an enemy at the end of a charge, that creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the boar totem barbarian's class level+his Strength modifier) or be stunned for 1 round.

At 18th level, the boar totem barbarian's defensive power improves. His Fast Healing ability becomes Regeneration instead. The boar totem barbarian takes normal damage from silver weapons.

Eagle: A 3rd level eagle totem barbarian receives a +2 bonus on his Spot checks. This bonus increases by +2 every time the eagle totem barbarian gains another Totem Power class feature (this bonus is in addition to the actual Totem Powers), to a maximum of +12 at level 18.

A 6th level eagle totem barbarian can grow wings once per day. This process takes one minute, and lasts for 30 minutes per class level. These wings grant the eagle totem barbarian an extraordinary flight speed equal to the eagle totem barbarian's land speed, with average maneuverability.

A 9th level eagle totem barbarian gains the Flyby Attack and Hover feats as bonus feats. He need not meet the prerequisites.

A 12th level eagle totem barbarian can swoop down from the sky in a devastating attack that will crush his opponents. This is similar to a charge, except the eagle totem barbarian must descend at least 10 feet and move forward at least 30 feet in order to gain the benefits. If the eagle totem barbarian makes a dive attack while wielding a piercing weapon, he deals double damage with that attack.

A 15th level eagle totem barbarian's dive attack is even more ferocious than it was before. When the eagle totem barbarian successfully strikes a creature with his dive attack while raging, that creature must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 the eagle totem barbarian's class level+his Strength modifier) or be dazed for 1 round.

An 18th level eagle totem barbarian's wings become permanent. His fly speed is now equal to twice his base land speed, and his maneuverability improves to good.

Horse: A 3rd level horse totem barbarian gains the Mounted Combat feat as a bonus feat. He need not qualify for the prerequisites. Every time he gains the Totem Power class feature after that, he gains an additional feat as a bonus feat. He need not meet any prerequisites. (The bonus feat will be listed in paranthises after the ability)

A 6th level horse totem barbarian can use the Mounted Combat feat when he is struck while mounted, in addition to when his mount is struck. The feat works the same way, allowing the horse totem barbarian to substitute his Armor Class with a Ride check. (Ride-By Attack)

A 9th level horse totem barbarian deals double damage with a lance while using his Ride-By Attack feat. (Spirited Charge)

A 12th level horse totem barbarian who strikes a creature with his lance at the end of a mounted charge shocks every creature who sees his brutality. All enemies within 30 feet who can see him must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 class level+Str mod) or be shaken for the duration of the encounter. If he is raging when he makes the attack, he receives a +2 bonus to the DC, which improves to +4 if his mount is also raging via the Share Rage class feature. (Improved Overrun)

While a 15th level horse totem barbarian is raging, he treats his mount as if it were a Gargantuan creature for the purposes of Overrun checks. If he is raging, the mount is instead treated as if it were a Colossal creature. (Trample)

An 18th level horse totem barbarian is able to finish off any creature with a single charge. If he successfully strikes a creature at the end of a mounted charge during a rage, his mount may make an Overrun attempt against the creature as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it succeeds, the mount's free attack from the Trample feat automatically threatens a critical hit (if the mount's attack is successful). (Cavalry Charger [Complete Warrior])

Lion: A 3rd level lion totem barbarian retains his ability to make Dexterity-based skill checks while enraged. Additionally, his base land speed improves by 10 feet.

A 6th level lion totem barbarian gains the Pounce ability, allowing him to make a full attack at the end of a charge. Additionally, while raging, his fangs sharpen and transform into a natural bite attack. This is a secondary natural weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage.

A 9th level lion totem barbarian gains the Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight class features, as a ranger, while in forested or jungle terrain.

A 12th level lion totem barbarian is able to work together with his allies, or when he is hunting his prey alone, and finish them off more quickly. He gains the Sneak Attack extraordinary ability, and deals an additional +1d6 points of damage per 4 class levels (max +5d6 at 20th) when the appropriate conditions are met (this ability stacks with Sneak Attack he has from other classes). A lion totem barbarian may only use his Sneak Attack ability with melee attacks.

A 15th level lion totem barbarian may sacrifice any number of Sneak Attack dice when it successfully Sneak Attacks a creature. If he does so, that creature instead takes a -2 penalty per dice sacrificed to its checks made to resist grapple, for a number of rounds equal to twice the number of dice sacrificed. This penalty stacks with itself.

An 18th level lion totem barbarian is a deadly hunter who can finish his foes off in a single pounce. While he is raging, when he Sneak Attacks a creature at the end of a Pounce, if he successfully grapples the creature and establishes a hold, his rake attacks all automatically add his Sneak Attack damage for the duration of the grapple or his rage, whichever ends first.

Serpent: A 3rd level serpent totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus to all grapple checks. This bonus increases by +2 every time the serpent totem barbarian gains the Totem Power class feature, to a maximum of +12 at 18th level.

A 6th level serpent totem barbarian gains a constrict attack. This attack deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage (for a Medium serpent totem barbarian) plus 1 1/2 times the serpent totem barbarian's Strength modifier with a successful grapple check. If the serpent totem barbarian already has a constrict attack (such as by being in constrictor snake form), his constrict attack deals damage as if he were one Size category larger (no maximum, stacks with similar effects) and adds twice his Strength modifier to the constrict's damage instead of 1 1/2 times.

A 9th level serpent totem barbarian gains a natural bite attack. This attack deals 1d6 points of piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage (for a Medium barbarian) plus the serpent totem barbarian's Strength modifier. While he is raging, a serpent totem barbarian's natural bite attack (in all forms) has a venomous toxin that deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage, and repeats in 1 minute. The DC to negate the damage is 10+1/2 the barbarian's class level+his Constitution modifier. While a serpent totem barbarian is raging, his bite attack deals 1d8 damage (if Medium) instead, and this overlaps the Totem Rage natural bite.

A 12th level serpent totem barbarian is able to slowly squeeze the life out of his prey. A creature who is constricted by the barbarian for 2 consecutive rounds begins to suffocate. A creature who is constricted by the barbarian for 3 consecutive rounds must make a Fortitude save or be dazed for 1 round. A creature who is constricted by the barbarian for 4 or more consecutive rounds must make a Fortitude save (each round) or fall unconscious for 1 hour.

A 15th level serpent totem barbarian becomes even more venomous. While he is raging, his natural bite attack (in all forms) forces three different Fortitude saves against three different venoms. One deals 1d6 Con/1d6 Con, one deals 1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex, and one deals 1d6 Str/1d6 Str. The DC for each poison is equal to 10+1/2 the barbarian's class level+his Constitution modifier. (These poisons replace the 9th level poison).

An 18th level serpent totem barbarian goes right in for the kill. He gains the Improved Grab special attack in all forms, which allows him to immediately start a grapple whenever he strikes a creature with his natural bite attack as a free action without requiring a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. Additionally, when the serpent totem barbarian is in snake form, his natural bite attack overcomes all forms of damage reduction.

Wolf: A 3rd level wolf gains the scent extraordinary quality. He also gains a +2 bonus on all Survival checks, which increases by an additional +2 every time he gains the Totem Power class feature, to a maximum of +12 at 18th level.

A 6th level wolf totem barbarian gains a natural bite attack, which deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage (if the wolf totem barbarian is Medium) plus his Strength modifier (or 1 1/2 times his Strength modifier if it his only natural weapon). Additionally, a wolf totem barbarian's natural bite attack (in all forms) receives a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls per 4 class levels (maximum of +5 at level 20) and is treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. While the wolf totem barbarian is raging, his natural bite attack deals damage as if it were one Size category larger, and this benefit overlaps the Totem Rage feature.

A 9th level wolf totem barbarian gains the Trip extraordinary special attack in all forms. When the wolf totem barbarian hits a creature with his natural bite attack, he may make a Trip attempt against the creature as a free action without a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity.

A 12th level wolf totem barbarian can severely weaken a creature who is already down. When the wolf totem barbarian successfully attacks a creature who is prone, that creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the wolf totem barbarian's class level+his Strength modifier) or be slowed, as the spell, for 1 round per 2 class levels. This is an extraordinary ability, and is not considered a spell or a transmutation effect.

A 15th level wolf totem barbarian can maul his enemies to death, especially when he comes out of nowhere. A wolf totem barbarian receives a +4 bonus to Trip checks made at the end of a charge in all forms, and is also treated as one Size category larger than he actually is for the purposes of Trip checks (to a maximum of Colossal).

An 18th level wolf totem barbarian is a mighty creature. Any creature he trips with his Trip extraordinary special attack must spend a full-round action in order to stand up from being prone. If the creature cannot spend a full-round action (for example, if the creature is slowed), it may not stand up from prone at all.



Totem Companion (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a barbarian may gain an animal companion, similar to a druid's animal companion. The companion must be the same type of animal as his totem animal. A barbarian selects his totem companion from the druid's animal companion list. A barbarian treats his druid level as if it were equal to his barbarian level+3 for the purposes of his animal companion's statistics and his options for higher level companions. (So a 4th level wolf totem barbarian could get a wolf as a 7th level druid, or a dire wolf as a 1st level druid, while a 4th level lion totem barbarian would be forced to take a lion as a 1st level druid)

The barbarian's totem companion improves as his druid level improves, see the table below:


{table]Class Level | Bonus HD | Natural Armor Adj. | Str/Dex Adj. | Bonus Tricks | Special
1st-2nd | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | Link, Share Rage
3rd-5th | +2 | +2 | +1 |2 | Evasion
6th-8th | +4 | +4 | +2 | 3 | Devotion
9th-11th | +6 | +6 | +3 | 4 | Multiattack
12th-14th | +8 | +8 | +4 | 5 |
15th-17th | +10 | +10 |+5 | 6 | Improved Evasion
18th-20th | +12 | +12 | +6 | 7 |
21st-23rd | +14 | +14 | +7 | 8 | Legendary Companion
[/table]

The features of this totem companion are the same as the druid's, with the following changes:

Share Rage: When a barbarian rages, if his totem companion is within 30 feet of him, it may also enter a rage with the same penalties, bonuses, and restrictions as the barbarian's rage. If the distance between the totem companion and the barbarian exceeds 30 feet at any time, or when the barbarian stops raging, the totem companion stops raging and becomes fatigued.

Multiattack: Same as the animal companion feature, except if a totem companion already has the Multiattack feat when it gains this feature, it instead gains the Improved Multiattack feat.

Legendary Companion: The animal companion is a monster of legend among its kind. It gains the Legendary Animal template (MM II).


Totem Shape (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a barbarian finds that not only can he fight similarly to his totem animal, he can actually transform his body into his totem animal. This ability functions like the alternate form supernatural ability, except as noted here.

The effect lasts for 1 hour per barbarian level, or until he changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time he uses totem shape, the barbarian regain lost hit points as if he had rested for a night.

Any gear worn or carried by the barbarian melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the barbarian reverts to his true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on his body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the barbarian's feet.

The form chosen must be that of the barbarian's totem animal. This includes the ability to change into the dire or legendary forms of that animal.

A barbarian loses his ability to speak while in animal form because he is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but he can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as his new form.

The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the barbarian's class level.

A barbarian is able to Totem Shape once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day at 10th and 15th level.

Greater Rage (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a barbarian's bonuses to Strength and Constitution from his rage increase to +6 each. His bonus to Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to his AC remains at -2.

Totem Empathy (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, the barbarian is able to communicate with his totem animals and their dire forms as if he shared a language with them. Additionally, the barbarian receives a +4 bonus on Charisma-based skill checks made when interacting with his totem animals and their dire forms.

Primitive Mind (Ex): Starting at 14th level, a barbarian is treated as an animal while raging or when using the Totem Shape ability. This prevents him from being affected by spells that target humanoids such as dominate person or hold person, however, it makes him vulnerable to spells that target animals, such as charm animal. However, his inner animal also is able to meld with his fury, and so when the barbarian is simultaneously Totem Shaped and raging, his morale bonus to Will saves granted by his rage doubles.

Mighty Rage (Ex): Starting at 14th level, the barbarian's bonuses to Strength and Constitution while raging increase to +8 each, and his morale bonus to Will saves increases to +4. His AC penalty remains at -2.

Tireless Rage (Ex): Beginning at 17th level, the barbarian no longer becomes fatigued after raging.

Master of the Wild (Ex): At 20th level, the barbarian has finally gotten in complete touch with his true animal self, and awakened powers that lay dormant within him. If the barbarian is a humanoid or giant, he gains the lycanthropy template for his totem animal (he may choose to either be a lycanthrope or a lycanthrope lord, as long as he meets the appropriate size requirements [A lycanthrope lord is a lycanthrope with the dire version of an animal used as the base animal]). Unlike the normal lycanthrope template, a barbarian receives no Level Adjustment, nor does he gain any racial hit dice. He gains all other bonuses the natural lycanthrope template grants, including an additional 10 damage reduction/silver when in animal or hybrid form, that stacks with his class-based damage reduction. A barbarian is able to control his shape perfectly as a natural lycanthrope, and is never at risk of changing his alignment due to his lycanthropy.

Rage of the Avatar (Ex): At 20th level, a barbarian is a truly vicious beast who epitomizes the harsh nature of the wild. His bonuses to Strength and Constitution while raging increase to +10, and the morale bonus to his Will saves increases to +5. The AC penalty remains at -2.

Ex-Barbarians: A barbarian whose alignment becomes lawful loses all of his barbarian class features and may no longer gain levels in the barbarian class. He immediately recovers his class features and may continue to progress in the barbarian class if he ceases to be lawful.



Extra Rage
Prerequisites: Rage class feature
Benefits: You receive a number of extra rounds of rage per day equal to 2+your barbarian level. If you have the Greater Rage class feature, the amount increases to 4+your barbarian level. If you have the Mighty Rage class feature, the amount increases to 6+your barbarian level. If you have the Rage of the Avatar class feature, this feat no longer provides any direct benefits. Instead, a barbarian with the Extra Rage feat and the Rage of the Avatar class feature is able to rage for a number of minutes per day equal to the number of rounds per day that he would have normally been able to rage, without the Extra Rage feat (42+his Constitution modifier).

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-26, 02:18 AM
I just recently attempted my own barbarian fix, so it should be interesting what kind of approach you've taken. Let's see.


Illiteracy:
I personally am against any base class penalizing you for taking it, and would prefer to have this as a flaw. But then, I suppose some people see it as iconic, so eh.


Rage (Ex):
Interesting. You get a lot more control over your rage, and it eliminates the issue of "1st level- take Extra Rage. Have sufficient rage for all encounters in a normal day for the rest of the class."


Totem Animal (Ex):
Ok then. Cool idea, but a lot of the feats here are dramatically worse than others. I know they're bonus feats, but... Ape gives you Power Attack, Horse gives you Run? That seems kind of harsh.


Nature Sense (Ex):
Neat and flavorful. Approve.


Totem Power (Ex): At 3rd level, and every 3 levels after that, a barbarian gains a single special bonus from his totem animal.
I see what you're doing here. Nifty, and makes different barbarians feel pretty different, with the range of abilities.


Totem Companion (Ex):
All very good and flavorful, but... why do you count as a higher level druid? The druid's animal companion is already both silly-good and an in-game problem in that it's basically a second character that you control, doubling the length of your turn. It's not as bad with a barbarian, since he's not a spellcaster, but... I'd leave it at barbarian level = druid level.


Totem Shape (Su):
Huh. On the one hand, this is a nifty ability. On the other hand... barbarians are traditionally anti-magic. Having an explicitly magical ability in the class feels wrong to me, somehow. Perhaps present an ACF that trades this in for a more mundane ability?

(oh, and it also has the wild shape problems of lasting all day and making physical stats irrelevant, although the limit to one specific animal makes it less overbearing)


Damage Reduction/Silver (Ex):
Ok. Fits with the flavor.


[b]Greater Rage (Ex):
Nice to see this come online earlier, although I think you could still move it up.


Totem Empathy (Ex):
Excellent.


Primitive Mind (Ex):
Awesome, and very fitting with the tone of the class.


Mighty Rage (Ex):
Meh... the bonuses seem almost irrelevant at such a high level.


Master of the Wild (Ex):
Cool capstone, but the fact that you got a very similar ability back at level five makes it a lot less exciting. Lycanthropy is easier to mesh with the classic barbarian than wildshaping, somehow, so that's good.


Everything is very solid, but... you still don't have many options in combat. You can power attack, and you can turn into one specific animal, and... well... power attack. Some of the totems grant nifty powers, but you'll still be a fairly low-trick pony. Sorry if that seems harsh, but the Tome of Battle casts a long shadow over all other melee classes. Not so much in power, but in options-- being really good at one thing is generally much less fun than being able to do many things, or even just that one thing in different ways.

My recommendation would be to... well... you can look at my own fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227466)and see what my options are. :smallredface: I would encourage you to look at something like the Pathfinder rage powers, though-- in addition to adding options and customization, they make rage (the iconic barbarian ability) a vital part of the class, rather than just a generic self-buff.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 02:39 AM
Ok then. Cool idea, but a lot of the feats here are dramatically worse than others. I know they're bonus feats, but... Ape gives you Power Attack, Horse gives you Run? That seems kind of harsh.


Most barbarians will be taking Power Attack at 1st level either way. The ape gets to choose his first level feat, while everyone else gets theirs chosen for them, essentially.



Neat and flavorful. Approve.


Thank you.



I see what you're doing here. Nifty, and makes different barbarians feel pretty different, with the range of abilities.


Indeed.



All very good and flavorful, but... why do you count as a higher level druid? The druid's animal companion is already both silly-good and an in-game problem in that it's basically a second character that you control, doubling the length of your turn. It's not as bad with a barbarian, since he's not a spellcaster, but... I'd leave it at barbarian level = druid level.


Because I wanted the ability to come online at 4th level and lions are a -6 level adjustment animal.




Huh. On the one hand, this is a nifty ability. On the other hand... barbarians are traditionally anti-magic. Having an explicitly magical ability in the class feels wrong to me, somehow. Perhaps present an ACF that trades this in for a more mundane ability?


I don't think so. It's really just a connection with the wild. My barbarian is much more half-animal/jungle than the traditional barbarian. It's just my chosen flavor/direction.



(oh, and it also has the wild shape problems of lasting all day and making physical stats irrelevant, although the limit to one specific animal makes it less overbearing)


Those aren't problems for a character who won't be contributing out of combat, in my opinion. Let him relax in animal form all day if he likes. He's perfectly capable of destroying creatures in either form.



Nice to see this come online earlier, although I think you could still move it up.


Since it stacks with totem shape, it's actually a lot more powerful than it used to be.



Cool capstone, but the fact that you got a very similar ability back at level five makes it a lot less exciting. Lycanthropy is easier to mesh with the classic barbarian than wildshaping, somehow, so that's good.


Er...they're actually quite different. Have you seen the lycanthrope template? Rather than replacing your existing stats, you take your real stats and add the animals stats -10 to them. So a werebear lord barbarian would change his Strength score to 31 with Totem Shape, but he would increase his base Strength score by +20 with Alternate Form. (And that stacks with Mighty Rage, of course)

Plus, you get a hybrid form that can use manufactured weapons and wear armor. You also get scent, DR 20/Silver, +2 Wisdom, blah blah blah.



Everything is very solid, but... you still don't have many options in combat. You can power attack, and you can turn into one specific animal, and... well... power attack. Some of the totems grant nifty powers, but you'll still be a fairly low-trick pony. Sorry if that seems harsh, but the Tome of Battle casts a long shadow over all other melee classes. Not so much in power, but in options-- being really good at one thing is generally much less fun than being able to do many things, or even just that one thing in different ways.

My recommendation would be to... well... you can look at my own fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227466)and see what my options are. :smallredface: I would encourage you to look at something like the Pathfinder rage powers, though-- in addition to adding options and customization, they make rage (the iconic barbarian ability) a vital part of the class, rather than just a generic self-buff.

I appreciate your suggestion, but I have no interest in adding other options to the class. This entire remix has only one purpose, and that is to cement the barbarian as having very specific flavor, that being a wild savage warrior who draws upon the power of an animal as he releases his anger in combat. Adding non-animal abilities would be detrimental to my original goal.

Ziegander
2012-01-26, 02:50 AM
I really like this Barbarian fix. This is a lot like the Barbarian I've always wanted to write but never really had the drive to complete. This is the perfect Barbarian class for a high-magic setting like Forgotten Realms.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 03:03 AM
I really like this Barbarian fix. This is a lot like the Barbarian I've always wanted to write but never really had the drive to complete. This is the perfect Barbarian class for a high-magic setting like Forgotten Realms.

Why thank you very much, Ziegander.

mrcarter11
2012-01-26, 08:18 AM
Putting this as an enemy into a game I'm DMing right this moment.. We shall see how they contend.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-26, 11:41 AM
With the excpetion of the rage class feature, this seems more like a native-american or jungle dwelling aborigine rather than the classic nordic fighter that most people think of when they hear "barbarian". It's not necessarily a bad thing, just a comment on how you seem to be mixing flavor from 2 different classic stereotypes.


P.S. I like the animal totems, any chance you would consider adding a few magical-beast totems? Maybe as LA+ versions, like a dragon-totem barbarian, or perhaps just upgraded alternate versions of other totems; the horse becomes a unicorn, the lion becomes a displacer beast, etc.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 11:48 AM
With the excpetion of the rage class feature, this seems more like a native-american or jungle dwelling aborigine rather than the classic nordic fighter that most people think of when they hear "barbarian". It's not necessarily a bad thing, just a comment on how you seem to be mixing flavor from 2 different classic stereotypes.

I'm just following the flavor that WotC created (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#apeTotemClassFeatures) . The rage is more a "release the inner animal" type of thing, this barbarian is not supposed to be based on a nordic pillager in any way. (Really, as you pointed out, there's only one class feature that represents it, compared to the 12 different ones that represent the animal, so I wouldn't call that "mixing")



P.S. I like the animal totems, any chance you would consider adding a few magical-beast totems? Maybe as LA+ versions, like a dragon-totem barbarian, or perhaps just upgraded alternate versions of other totems; the horse becomes a unicorn, the lion becomes a displacer beast, etc.

That doesn't really fit the flavor I was going for. Plus, you can't become a lycanthrope using a magical beast as the base animal, and without lycanthropy the DR/Silver doesn't make sense, so I'd end up with quite a few dead levels to fill in, in addition to having to write six new totem powers for each magical beast and figuring out their Level Adjustment for companions mentally.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-26, 11:59 AM
I'm just following the flavor that WotC created (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#apeTotemClassFeatures) . The rage is more a "release the inner animal" type of thing, this barbarian is not supposed to be based on a nordic pillager in any way. (Really, as you pointed out, there's only one class feature that represents it, compared to the 12 different ones that represent the animal, so I wouldn't call that "mixing")

Perhaps you could add some more features to tie Rage into your animal totem? Growing natural weapons while raging, having some Totem powers only work while raging, that sort of thing? While it does make the barbarian more limited in terms of daily encounters, I think the unification of flavor would have a net positive effect.

Roderick_BR
2012-01-26, 12:01 PM
I did notice the "toten" abilities are the ACFs from various fonts, added as choosable powers. I like how it turned out. I tried it myself once, but didn't have enough dedication to balance them well with the levels.

I'm just not sure if I like the rest of the totem powers (companion, DR/silver, turning into totem's animal,etc) as that's more ranger/druid-ish, and start going into more magicy territory, but mechanically, they fit well.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-26, 12:09 PM
That doesn't really fit the flavor I was going for. Plus, you can't become a lycanthrope using a magical beast as the base animal

Were-basilisk

Make it now. You know you want to. :smalltongue:

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 12:25 PM
Perhaps you could add some more features to tie Rage into your animal totem? Growing natural weapons while raging, having some Totem powers only work while raging, that sort of thing? While it does make the barbarian more limited in terms of daily encounters, I think the unification of flavor would have a net positive effect.

There. Added the Totem Rage feature at 2nd level, and changed some of the totem powers around to only work while raging or grant additional bonuses while raging.


Were-basilisk

Make it now. You know you want to :smalltongue:

Indeed, unfortunately, it really doesn't fit with this class's flavor and I'm trying to stick closely to it. The reason I wanted to fix the barbarian in the first place was because I didn't like his bland lack of flavor. Moving away from it just for some cool ideas isn't the answer. The barbarian is a savage tribal warrior who hunts with his close animal companion and slowly awakens to the beast within, eventually becoming a half-man half-animal monstrosity. Nothing magical about it (the fluff, not the mechanics).

mrcarter11
2012-01-26, 12:44 PM
I didn't bother to optimize it any, but the spellshape champion is currently dealing more damage and taking more as well.. Though PA'ing was kinda sweet.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 12:53 PM
I didn't bother to optimize it any, but the spellshape champion is currently dealing more damage and taking more as well.. Though PA'ing was kinda sweet.

What totem did you pick? Is his pet crushing people as well?

mrcarter11
2012-01-26, 01:26 PM
Using Boar.. I'll say now, that the pet joins in the next round.. He is raging though and charged.. And I haven't shifted him into his alternate form.. I don't think I will.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 01:33 PM
Using Boar.. I'll say now, that the pet joins in the next round.. He is raging though and charged.. And I haven't shifted him into his alternate form.. I don't think I will.

Well, note the changes I made to the class, he should gain a primary tusk natural attack while raging, even when he's not in alternate form.

Still, boar has always been one of my favorite totems. Really helps the barbarian become an unkillable monster, and its not in the normal "tank" way, it's pure unbridled endurance, rather than just high AC and control. A solid choice for a BBEG.

mrcarter11
2012-01-26, 01:44 PM
Well, he's using THF, and with armor, I just thought not changing forms would be a better idea. He's also level 8.

Milo v3
2012-01-26, 07:31 PM
Would I be allowed to use this in my campaign setting (Blades of Keran) NeoSeraphi?

Ravellion
2012-01-26, 07:46 PM
All right, I have been searching the site and the FAQs for the last 15 minutes. What does PEACH mean? it is everywhere, and this is the most recent active thread. I know it is off topic, but I didn't think this deserved its own topic either, since everyone here is doing fine. Could someone please tell me?

Grod_The_Giant
2012-01-26, 08:01 PM
All right, I have been searching the site and the FAQs for the last 15 minutes. What does PEACH mean? it is everywhere, and this is the most recent active thread. I know it is off topic, but I didn't think this deserved its own topic either, since everyone here is doing fine. Could someone please tell me?

Please Examine And Critique Honestly.

Milo v3
2012-01-26, 08:02 PM
All right, I have been searching the site and the FAQs for the last 15 minutes. What does PEACH mean? it is everywhere, and this is the most recent active thread. I know it is off topic, but I didn't think this deserved its own topic either, since everyone here is doing fine. Could someone please tell me?

Please evaluate and criticize honestly.

Edit:Ninja'd

Ravellion
2012-01-26, 08:18 PM
Thanks for the explanation.

This barbarian has a lot more flavour than the standard barb, so you did great on that account.

The rage worries me on a bookkeeping account. People tend not to track number of rounds in a combat very well, and since you give a lot of control to the player, the barb might just end up not quite so fatigued as often and as long as he should.

The other slight worry I share with a previous poster: the animal companion. I think it might be too strong. This could be made worse in a party with a druid and a barbarian, with the druid buffing both animal companions. I have few alternatives ready if you insist on having a lion available at level 6 though. Possibly you could reduce the high level problems by making your druid level half your barbarian level +6 instead. That, or design a lesser lion to fill this gap.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 10:17 PM
The other slight worry I share with a previous poster: the animal companion. I think it might be too strong. This could be made worse in a party with a druid and a barbarian, with the druid buffing both animal companions. I have few alternatives ready if you insist on having a lion available at level 6 though. Possibly you could reduce the high level problems by making your druid level half your barbarian level +6 instead. That, or design a lesser lion to fill this gap.

It's not up to me to account for party member interaction. It's up to me to make the class stand on its own just fine. The barbarian's animal companion does not have the Share Spells feature that the druid's animal companion does, making it vastly weaker for teamwork abilities. Additionally, the barbarian may only select from a handful of creatures (and the rest of his class features are based on them too, so he might take a weaker creature like a snake so he can get Snake Totem features)

The barbarian's animal companion should certainly not be weaker than a druid's, as you suggested. The barbarian class is so inferior to the druid class in pretty much every way that his pet shouldn't suffer for it.

To reassure you, though, I based this class feature on the Totem Druid variant animal companion (Dragon Magazine something or other), which the totem druid gets at level 1 and gives him a +3 bonus to his AC level as well, though he may only select his totem animal as a companion.


Would I be allowed to use this in my campaign setting (Blades of Keran) NeoSeraphi?

Absolutely :smallsmile:

Deepbluediver
2012-01-26, 10:38 PM
That, or design a lesser lion to fill this gap.

The leopard and the cheetah are both possible options at level 4, but I think Seraphi really has his heart set on using that lion :P

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 10:57 PM
The leopard and the cheetah are both possible options at level 4, but I think Seraphi really has his heart set on using that lion :P

Indeed. Those aren't "lions". They're just cats. If I were to set loose rules like that, you could grab a riding dog instead of a wolf or a pet Neanderthal instead of an ape. :smallamused:

I don't see why everyone's so worried anyway. The only animals that are available with absolutely no LA are the wolf, eagle, horse and Medium snake. The +3 bonus to your level is to offset the fact that most totem barbarians won't have a choice and will have to take a creature with a -3 LA.

Just to Browse
2012-01-26, 11:04 PM
Those totem feats...

Power Attack =/= Track =/= Run. Please find different ones. I don't even know what, but horse is NEVER going to be a totem with the run feat.

absolmorph
2012-01-26, 11:13 PM
Those totem feats...

Power Attack =/= Track =/= Run. Please find different ones. I don't even know what, but horse is NEVER going to be a totem with the run feat.
Er... The feat isn't the only feature of the totems.
The horse totem actually looks rather shiny for a mounted combatant.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-26, 11:31 PM
There just aren't that many feats that properly represent an animal. I suppose I could just change the ape's to something weaker. I'll do that now.

Edit: There we go. Now the ape totem barbarian gets Toughness as a bonus feat at 1st. So the feats are all pretty equal in usefulness, save Diehard (which only helps you if you're dying) and Improved Grapple (which only helps you against creatures up to one Size category larger than you)

nonsi
2012-01-28, 12:59 AM
Just two nitpicks:

Since this is a sort of Barbarian-ShapeshiftRanger hybrid, I would use the name "Beastheart".

You got the Ape Totem wrong. Primates don't have claws.

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-28, 01:12 AM
Just two nitpicks:

Since this is a sort of Barbarian-ShapeshiftRanger hybrid, I would use the name "Beastheart".

It's really not. It's got a shapeshifter aspect, but that's where the similarities end. Rangers draw their power from nature, not animals or lycanthropy. Barbarians, on the other hand, have always drawn their power from emulating animals.


You got the Ape Totem wrong. Primates don't have claws.

Tell it to WotC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm).

nonsi
2012-01-28, 07:43 AM
It's really not. It's got a shapeshifter aspect, but that's where the similarities end. Rangers draw their power from nature, not animals or lycanthropy. Barbarians, on the other hand, have always drawn their power from emulating animals.

1. I said sort of.
2. I don't remember Conan emulating an animal.
3. Your class draws its power from emulating animals, plus it has a feature called "Primitive Mind". "Beastheart" seems a perfect fit to me. But it's your creation, so call it what you will.




Tell it to WotC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm).
Then WotC got this one wrong as well - just as they would, had they invented flying elephants and title it "Animal".

NeoSeraphi
2012-01-28, 10:51 AM
1. I said sort of.
2. I don't remember Conan emulating an animal.
3. Your class draws its power from emulating animals, plus it has a feature called "Primitive Mind". "Beastheart" seems a perfect fit to me. But it's your creation, so call it what you will.


Never read anything about Conan. I'm talking about the WotC class, the barbarian, and its totem animals.



Then WotC got this one wrong as well - just as they would, had they invented flying elephants and title it "Animal".

Yes, they did. That doesn't mean I'm going to homebrew an ape and a dire ape just for this class. In D&D, apes have claws. So the ape totem barbarian grows claws.

DrewVolker
2012-02-01, 04:41 PM
I really really like this class. (Yes I said really twice, as that is how much I like this class ^^)

It takes the barbarian (one of my favorite character types) to the next level in terms of epicness and flavor.

I plan on trying to ask a DM I might be playing under soon if he'd allow this class, and as part of my plea I want to bring up its power level when compared to other classes. Aka the tier system.
I am horrible at figuring out what classes are in what tier.
So, in your opinion, what tier would this class be and why?

Thanks!

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-01, 09:39 PM
I really really like this class. (Yes I said really twice, as that is how much I like this class ^^)

It takes the barbarian (one of my favorite character types) to the next level in terms of epicness and flavor.

I plan on trying to ask a DM I might be playing under soon if he'd allow this class, and as part of my plea I want to bring up its power level when compared to other classes. Aka the tier system.
I am horrible at figuring out what classes are in what tier.
So, in your opinion, what tier would this class be and why?

Thanks!

This class has the same tier as the PHB barbarian, Tier 4. It has interesting options and flavor, but it's still pretty limited to just combat and raging. It has skills and skill points, but it doesn't have a myriad of skills that make it useful like a factotum or a rogue, and though it can Wild Shape, it can only change into a very small handful of forms, unlike the wildshape ranger, who can turn into any Medium or Small animal.

I would say that the Eagle Totem barbarian is pushing Tier 3, but that's mostly because of how useful and versatile flight is. If it does break into Tier 3, it's at the very bottom of it.

I'm glad you like the class. :smallsmile: I hope your DM lets you try it.

NeoSeraphi
2012-02-22, 10:59 AM
Added some clarification to the Wolf Totem's 18th level Totem Power (gotta love Trip control).

I'd really like to see someone playtest this character in a game. If you are interested and get it approved, please PM me a link to the IC so I can see for myself how it fares.

Edit: Updated Totem Companion to include the Legendary Companion ability.

SpaceBadger
2012-02-22, 02:20 PM
I wouldn't want =all= Barbarians in my game to be like this, but I really like it as an option - either an archetype (I play PF) or an alternate base class, maybe call it Totem Barbarian or Beast Barbarian or something like that.

Nice work!

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-19, 12:41 PM
The rage class feature's progression was looking a little awkward, so I decided to shift it around a little, moving Mighty Rage up to 14th level and adding a new upgrade, Rage of the Avatar, to 20th. Now the rage feature upgrades every 6 levels (though it takes 7 to get started).

I also added in Tireless Rage at 17th, since that still seems appropriate and needed.

Deepbluediver
2012-03-19, 01:11 PM
Something that I've been thinking of: why do the rage bonuses not normally increase as your level improves? The +4 bonus to strength is great at level 1, less impressive at level 15. What if you got an increase to your rage bonuses every couple of levels?

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-19, 01:15 PM
Something that I've been thinking of: why do the rage bonuses not normally increase as your level improves? The +4 bonus to strength is great at level 1, less impressive at level 15. What if you got an increase to your rage bonuses every couple of levels?

...Because that would completely break the game? A rare-typed (morale) bonus to two ability scores (one of which determines your hit points and your Fortitude save, the other completely encompasses your existence as a melee character), which stacks with enhancement bonuses, inherent bonuses, racial bonuses, and most importantly, your arbitrarily high base Strength when you Totem Shape or become a lycanthrope? Yeah, that's way too powerful.

As it stands now, getting +10 morale is pretty high. It's not as good as barbarian/frenzied berserker, but combining it with Master of the Wild/Totem Shape results in a very strong base class.

Deepbluediver
2012-03-19, 01:25 PM
Sorry, I somehow didn't notice the Greater Rage and Mighty Rage improvements you already had. My bad.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-19, 01:29 PM
Sorry, I somehow didn't notice the Greater Rage and Mighty Rage improvements you already had. My bad.

Oh, well, that makes a lot more sense then. :smallsmile:

No worries. Sorry if I sounded a little harsh, my impression from your post was something more like "Hey, your improvements are good, but what if it was like 4+2 Str per odd level, with like 20+ Str at level 20?" and I reacted the way I did. My bad. :smallredface:

Deepbluediver
2012-03-19, 02:44 PM
Oh, well, that makes a lot more sense then. :smallsmile:

No worries. Sorry if I sounded a little harsh, my impression from your post was something more like "Hey, your improvements are good, but what if it was like 4+2 Str per odd level, with like 20+ Str at level 20?" and I reacted the way I did. My bad. :smallredface:

Haha, no problem; I should have been more detailed in my original post. I definitely understand the need to take stacking bonuses into account for balance. And I was thinking more along the lines of +1 every 4 or 5 levels.

What I was actually considering was that the base bonus at level 1 should maybe be reduced, so that dipping one level of barbarian was less attractive, and the progression for the increasing bonus was smoother.

And like I said, I missed the improvements you already had in place anyway.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-19, 02:51 PM
What I was actually considering was that the base bonus at level 1 should maybe be reduced, so that dipping one level of barbarian was less attractive, and the progression for the increasing bonus was smoother.


I can understand your reasoning there, but ending at +10 is a good goal, and unfortunately I don't really see a level where I could increase it from +2 to +4 between 1st and 8th. Unless I make it +2 at 1st, +4 at 5, +6 at 10th, +8 at 15th, and +10 at 20th. That's always a possibility, I guess.

DrewVolker
2012-04-01, 07:49 PM
I have a quick question about the totem companion.
When it gets the legendary animal template, does it also get the extra HD from said template?
I plan on playing a wolf totem barbarian in a upcoming game, and the legendary wolf has 12 more HD than the standard wolf. So when I hit that level, and my companion gets the template, do I add 12 HD to the companion?

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-01, 08:02 PM
I have a quick question about the totem companion.
When it gets the legendary animal template, does it also get the extra HD from said template?
I plan on playing a wolf totem barbarian in a upcoming game, and the legendary wolf has 12 more HD than the standard wolf. So when I hit that level, and my companion gets the template, do I add 12 HD to the companion?

Hmm...I suppose so. It's level 17 after all, if you're going to keep your wolf that long instead of upgrading to a dire, you can have your power boost.

DrewVolker
2012-04-01, 08:15 PM
Hmm...I suppose so. It's level 17 after all, if you're going to keep your wolf that long instead of upgrading to a dire, you can have your power boost.

Going off of the chart, its level 21st-23rd. Meaning it would be level 18 for a normal wolf companion, correct? Level + 3.

But, considering the dire wolf upgrade would give -6 from the level +3 (so really -3 in the end), wouldn't someone with a dire wolf get the legendary template applied to their companion at level 24? Or is it either a dire OR legendary companion choice?

I am just asking because I don't know.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-01, 10:24 PM
Going off of the chart, its level 21st-23rd. Meaning it would be level 18 for a normal wolf companion, correct? Level + 3.

But, considering the dire wolf upgrade would give -6 from the level +3 (so really -3 in the end), wouldn't someone with a dire wolf get the legendary template applied to their companion at level 24? Or is it either a dire OR legendary companion choice?

I am just asking because I don't know.

The barbarian does not have an epic progression, so there is no "level 24" here. And yes, it would be level 18, my mistake.

DrewVolker
2012-04-01, 11:56 PM
The barbarian does not have an epic progression, so there is no "level 24" here. And yes, it would be level 18, my mistake.

Ah, would that mean that the animal companion would stop progressing after level 20? Or simply that once you hit 21st it just improves like the druids. Every three levels it gets +2 hit dice, a trick, +2 nat armor, +1 str and dex?
So if you go with dire wolf, once you hit 21 you stop using the table on the class and just go with what I outlined above?

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-02, 12:15 AM
Ah, would that mean that the animal companion would stop progressing after level 20? Or simply that once you hit 21st it just improves like the druids. Every three levels it gets +2 hit dice, a trick, +2 nat armor, +1 str and dex?
So if you go with dire wolf, once you hit 21 you stop using the table on the class and just go with what I outlined above?

The barbarian does not have an epic progression. I didn't make one and I wouldn't endorse one. After level 20, you multiclass, and your new class does not grant you any advancement.

DrewVolker
2012-04-02, 12:39 AM
The barbarian does not have an epic progression. I didn't make one and I wouldn't endorse one. After level 20, you multiclass, and your new class does not grant you any advancement.

Oh wow, I honestly don't know why I failed to grasp that the first time around.
I am very sorry about that, haha. Brain fail I guess.

Either way, if my DM lets me just keep going into the epic levels with this class would you say for balance reasons it'd be best to not allow a dire + legendary companion?

Edit: I mean by following the rules set for taking any base class into epic.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-02, 12:45 AM
Oh wow, I honestly don't know why I failed to grasp that the first time around.
I am very sorry about that, haha. Brain fail I guess.

Either way, if my DM lets me just keep going into the epic levels with this class would you say for balance reasons it'd be best to not allow a dire + legendary companion?

Edit: I mean by following the rules set for taking any base class into epic.

I can't say for or against, much for the same reason as to why I would refuse to endorse epic levels in the first place: I've never played an epic game. I don't know anything about the levels past 21, nor the foes you encounter.

I would say, leave it up to your DM. However, with rumors of monsters that can magically age your character, and the mighty paragon template floating around, I can't see why an animal with 30+HD and 40 Str would be particularly unbalancing.

DrewVolker
2012-04-02, 12:56 AM
I can't say for or against, much for the same reason as to why I would refuse to endorse epic levels in the first place: I've never played an epic game. I don't know anything about the levels past 21, nor the foes you encounter.

I would say, leave it up to your DM. However, with rumors of monsters that can magically age your character, and the mighty paragon template floating around, I can't see why an animal with 30+HD and 40 Str would be particularly unbalancing.

I appreciate the time you have taken to answer all of my questions.
I will talk about it with my DM.

Thanks again for everything.

Person_Man
2012-04-02, 08:12 AM
You constantly shame me with your prolific output of homebrew. I demand that you cut back, or find me a job with less supervision.

Anywho, I apoligize if I missed it or if I'm misreading it, but natural weapons should be based on size, not a flat never-changing number. Otherwise a Huge Barbarian deals the same claw damage as a Tiny Barbarian, and would thus never use his claws over an appropriately sized weapon. For example, page 54 of Magic of Incarnum states that the damage values given in soulmelds are for medium characters, and that smaller and larger characters should adjust the values as normal based on the PHB pg 114. You may wish to include a similar caveat somewhere in your class description.

I would also tone down the Totem Companion to have an effective Druid level equal to your Barbarian level, and not Barbarian +3. Otherwise you could end up with Companions that are stronger then the base class, and with more hit die.

You may also wish to look at the Pathfinder "Beast Shape" rules, and use them in place of the Totem Shape ability. They're weaker then Alternate Forms in many ways, bat are far less confusing to implement, and allow you to keep the benefits of your equipment, which is key for any melee build. They also have some cool archetype abilities you could steal - everything is in their SRD and is open content.

Otherwise, looks spiffy.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-02, 09:04 AM
Anywho, I apoligize if I missed it or if I'm misreading it, but natural weapons should be based on size, not a flat never-changing number. Otherwise a Huge Barbarian deals the same claw damage as a Tiny Barbarian, and would thus never use his claws over an appropriately sized weapon. For example, page 54 of Magic of Incarnum states that the damage values given in soulmelds are for medium characters, and that smaller and larger characters should adjust the values as normal based on the PHB pg 114. You may wish to include a similar caveat somewhere in your class description.


You did miss it. It's at the top of the Totem Rage section. "The damage listed is for a Medium barbarian".


I would also tone down the Totem Companion to have an effective Druid level equal to your Barbarian level, and not Barbarian +3. Otherwise you could end up with Companions that are stronger then the base class, and with more hit die.

I can't do that without moving the Totem Companion feature back to level 7, since lions have an effective -6 level adjustment. Besides, the class is about emulating an animal in order to become stronger. Why would you want to emulate an animal that is physically weaker than you?



You may also wish to look at the Pathfinder "Beast Shape" rules, and use them in place of the Totem Shape ability. They're weaker then Alternate Forms in many ways, bat are far less confusing to implement, and allow you to keep the benefits of your equipment, which is key for any melee build. They also have some cool archetype abilities you could steal - everything is in their SRD and is open content.

It's too vague. +2 Strength for a Medium animal? Wolves are known for their Dexterity, not their Strength. Constrictors have high Str and high Dex, while vipers have low Strength and high Dex.

It doesn't make sense, to me. If you transform into a creature, you should be limited by its physical body, as well as strengthened. If a normal viper only has 8 Strength, why would a barbarian who transforms into that same viper not only retain his 20 Strength, but have it increase by +2? He's almost three times as strong as the creature he transforms into...even though he no longer has his base form's muscular power.

Nah, thanks for the suggestion, but Wild Shape is more realistic.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-02, 09:14 AM
Honest question Neo: Why did you make this? All of its flavor is available in currently-published classes. By your own admission you didn't really fix any of the Barbarian's actual problems and by what I'm seeing you didn't really do much aside from blend it with a nerfed combination of Animal Lord and Wildshape Ranger. I'm honestly wondering why you bothered doing this - and why you produce so many base classes that you aim at T4 or T5 when the game's already flooded with things that can represent their niche much more easily and without creating artificial limits for the player.

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. I just want to know.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-02, 09:28 AM
Honest question Neo: Why did you make this? All of its flavor is available in currently-published classes. By your own admission you didn't really fix any of the Barbarian's actual problems and by what I'm seeing you didn't really do much aside from blend it with a nerfed combination of Animal Lord and Wildshape Ranger. I'm honestly wondering why you bothered doing this - and why you produce so many base classes that you aim at T4 or T5 when the game's already flooded with things that can represent their niche much more easily and without creating artificial limits for the player.

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. I just want to know.

Because, the barbarian has some totem archetypes, but they're all pretty bad. I'd rather play a devoted animal warrior class than some 1st-5th level ACFs.

As for your second question, I think Tier 4 classes are fun to play. I homebrew because I enjoy it, I like to make classes that are based on cool or interesting ideas or flavor. Lycanthropy has always been one of my favorite parts of the game, the ability to transform yourself into some kind of werecreature with amazing strength and rip someone apart? Yes! We need that for a full BAB class that doesn't suck (AKA ranger). And it fits the barbarian so much better than the ranger. What, the ranger is a tracker with a pet, so he can just randomly turn into animals? Nah, that's just kind of generic. Meanwhile, the barbarian draws on the animal's power to increase his own. He reveres the animal, watches it, and then when he releases his inner fury, he takes on that animal's best qualities and uses them to tear his opponents apart!

Transformations like that make melee combat more fun and interesting for me. That's what this game needs. It doesn't need to give melee more options out of combat, it needs to make melee more interesting, instead of just full attacking someone.

And of course I'm going to answer. I'm proud of my homebrew, and all the stuff I make. :smallbiggrin:

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-02, 09:49 AM
Of course melee needs more options outside of combat, Neo. Everyone needs options outside of combat, because combat isn't the end-all, be-all of 3.5. Most of my favorite scenes were non-combat encounters in games I play (though admittedly, I do love me some face-breaking). And even with all of that, you haven't gotten rid of the full-attacking problem - all you've done is changed what kind of clothes the Barbarian is wearing when he makes his full attack/pouncing charge.

By the by, your analysis of Wildshape Ranger is, I believe, over-simplified. Assuming you want to use the default fluff (for whatever reason), the difference between Rangers and Druids is this: Druids study nature from the outside, as guardians and custodians that have both power over and responsibility to their charges. Rangers revere nature by becoming part of it - in this case, by living like a predator. Wildshape rangers take that a step further, becoming the ultimate natural predator by taking on perfect camouflage and adaptation to any situation they might find themselves put in. The really smart ones go Master of Many Forms and become a protean hunter that puts even the darkest of natural shadows to shame for its stealth and finesse.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-02, 10:04 AM
Of course melee needs more options outside of combat, Neo. Everyone needs options outside of combat, because combat isn't the end-all, be-all of 3.5. Most of my favorite scenes were non-combat encounters in games I play (though admittedly, I do love me some face-breaking). And even with all of that, you haven't gotten rid of the full-attacking problem - all you've done is changed what kind of clothes the Barbarian is wearing when he makes his full attack/pouncing charge.

That's not true at all. My favorite game I've ever played, I was a barbarian. I had absolutely no out-of-combat abilities, save Intimidate, didn't matter one bit. I had fun roleplaying my character, the storyline was interesting, the combat was awesome. I liked that game much more than I liked it when I was a bard or a beguiler or a wizard. Out of combat options are only necessary if you're incapable of having fun out of combat just by listening to the storyline and interacting with the other players and NPCs.

Story Time
2012-04-02, 10:51 AM
Everyone needs options outside of combat, because combat isn't the end-all, be-all of 3.5.

Yes... Yes, it is. :smallfrown: I'm...I'm so sorry for saying this, and saying it this way, but the experience system for Dungeons & Dragons is designed to reward defeating opponents. It's about conflict. Conflict is the core component to the mechanism of, "Leveling Up." Some GameMasters can off-set this by personal choice and by house rules, but any system designed around a grid-based, tactical combat, map simulation is about conflict and war...

I hope Gareth can forgive me for being unable to restrain myself...





The Barbarian

...I can't really grow peaches where I'm at. But I keep reading Seraphi home-brew. That should count for something...

Also, I really liked the illiteracy choice. That was very fitting.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-02, 11:42 AM
Yes... Yes, it is. :smallfrown: I'm...I'm so sorry for saying this, and saying it this way, but the experience system for Dungeons & Dragons is designed to reward defeating opponents. It's about conflict. Conflict is the core component to the mechanism of, "Leveling Up." Some GameMasters can off-set this by personal choice and by house rules, but any system designed around a grid-based, tactical combat, map simulation is about conflict and war...

I hope Gareth can forgive me for being unable to restrain myself...

Hey, don't feel bad about it. However, in one of the only well-written parts of the Book of Exalted Deeds, it points out that the experience system doesn't reward you just for defeating opponents - it rewards you for overcoming challenges. Disarming a trap is a challenge (and traps have a CR!). So is solving a puzzle, talking your opponents out of fighting, navigating through complex social politics at a royal ball (a ball you desperately need to make an impression at in order to get the aid you require) or even engaging in a riddling contest with a dragon. As it stands, non-ToB melee can only do one of these things (disarm a trap) and can sometimes, on rare occasions, also manage to attend a ball without shaming the party (rogues, paladins). I feel it's important for characters to be able to handle or at least contribute meaningfully to non-combat challenges, even if they're not playing a spellcaster or a bard.

DrewVolker
2012-04-02, 04:26 PM
Hey, don't feel bad about it. However, in one of the only well-written parts of the Book of Exalted Deeds, it points out that the experience system doesn't reward you just for defeating opponents - it rewards you for overcoming challenges. Disarming a trap is a challenge (and traps have a CR!). So is solving a puzzle, talking your opponents out of fighting, navigating through complex social politics at a royal ball (a ball you desperately need to make an impression at in order to get the aid you require) or even engaging in a riddling contest with a dragon. As it stands, non-ToB melee can only do one of these things (disarm a trap) and can sometimes, on rare occasions, also manage to attend a ball without shaming the party (rogues, paladins). I feel it's important for characters to be able to handle or at least contribute meaningfully to non-combat challenges, even if they're not playing a spellcaster or a bard.

While I agree it is always nice to any character to be able to do something for the party out of combat, I have to say I have neo's back on this one. My favorite character I have ever played was a barbarian who couldn't do much (if anything) for the group out of combat, but that is the way I did roleplay him. If you like to play a character who acts as the group's guard in a sense (and I do, I like playing someone who is very loyal and protects his friends), it dose not bother me too much that I can't do much else. Plus most of the time people have a more fun time when they are the group's one person that can handle a specific task. Like if you are the group's charisma based character and loaded with social skills and abilities, you always feel special when your skills are needed and no one else in the group can do what you can, at least not nearly as good. It all comes down to how the group likes to roleplay and how the DM sets up his games.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-02, 07:41 PM
While that's true in some groups, it's by no means true in all groups - and it still doesn't excuse sloppy design. I'm going to say this again, like I've said in almost every one of your threads that I've posted in, Seraphi - there is no excuse for sloppy design. If a player only wants to be good at one thing, that should be the player's choice, not a limitation forced on them by the class. Intentionally designing a sub-par class is like intentionally designing a sub-par Magic: the Gathering card or making a deliberately jank fighting-game character - it's needlessly punishing your player base.

Additionally, it's always safer to assume that a player will have more fun if they can contribute to a situation or problem somehow instead of sitting back and doing nothing, even if it's only by providing an Aid Another check on their Diplomacy. A lot of groups use skill ranks and other stats as a guideline for roleplaying, even if they normally resolve social or mental interactions with only roleplaying and thought (riddles, persuasion, and the like). Like, even if my group is resolving a social conflict purely with roleplaying, I'd look at my Bluff ranks to kinda figure out how good a liar my character is, extrapolate his knowledge of etiquette from his Diplomacy ranks, et cetera. This 'fix' adds nothing meaningfully new to the Barbarian and introduces quite a few abilities that don't really add much to their niche either. There's no reason to use it over Wildshape ranger (which has superior versatility and ability to run the 'shapeshifter' angle) or normal barbarian (which has superior face-beating ability).

Deepbluediver
2012-04-03, 08:01 AM
Intentionally designing a sub-par class is like intentionally designing a sub-par Magic: the Gathering card or making a deliberately jank fighting-game character - it's needlessly punishing your player base.

Sub-par compared to what? It's only comparatively less useful if you have it in a group full of tier 1's and 2's. If you want to be a more versatile player then there is plenty of other classes to pick from; it's not like anyone is forcing you to play a Barbarian. Intentionally aiming lower and hitting the mark is not what I would call sloppy.

Given that this is homebrew, a poster can design their classes to aim for whatever tier they want, and Seraphi has mentioned that he likes to play tier 4. Just because you prefer higher-power characters doesn't make this an invalid choice for some one else.

I think that having limitations on characters can make for a very interesting playstyle, because you can't just point to whatever mechanical ability you have and assume it will solve the problem. It forces people to think non-traditionally and encourages roleplaying. (IMHO)

Plus, it can make things easier for the DM when they aren't trying to come up with some contrived reason for every encounter so that it precludes the wizard from just shapeshifting into a dragon and dealing with everything that way. :smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-03, 08:23 AM
Sub-par compared to what? It's only comparatively less useful if you have it in a group full of tier 1's and 2's. If you want to be a more versatile player then there is plenty of other classes to pick from; it's not like anyone is forcing you to play a Barbarian. Intentionally aiming lower and hitting the mark is not what I would call sloppy.

Wildshape Rangers, Rogues, Spellthieves and Warmages share a tier with this class and are both more versatile and more useful in general. In particular, Wildshape Ranger pretty much as the 'shapechanging savage' angle covered.


Given that this is homebrew, a poster can design their classes to aim for whatever tier they want, and Seraphi has mentioned that he likes to play tier 4. Just because you prefer higher-power characters doesn't make this an invalid choice for some one else.

I don't have a problem with this class's power level. What I have a problem with is this class's redundancy. Its flavorful and mechanical roleslice is already full and it adds nothing new or interesting to the niche it's attempting to cram itself into. Unlike, say, Warmage or Beguiler, it's not a rebalance of a more powerful class and unlike the various Tome of Battle classes it does nothing to add versatility, power, or utility to an already-weak class. It was the same essential problem I had with his twenty-level 'Assassin' base class - there's no reason for this class to exist.


I think that having limitations on characters can make for a very interesting playstyle, because you can't just point to whatever mechanical ability you have and assume it will solve the problem. It forces people to think non-traditionally and encourages roleplaying. (IMHO)

Plus, it can make things easier for the DM when they aren't trying to come up with some contrived reason for every encounter so that it precludes the wizard from just shapeshifting into a dragon and dealing with everything that way. :smalltongue:

Tier 3 operates just fine like this. Characters have clear areas of specialization and defined Things We Can Do and Things We Can't Do. Tier four is mostly full of classes that wanted to be T3 but didn't make the cut. The Barbarian is already T4, and so is the Wildshape Ranger - if this isn't adding anything new to either, it's got no reason to exist. Redundant design is sloppy design (see: Agile Shield Fighter).

And the only thing you need to encourage roleplaying is roleplayers. T1 characters don't automatically cause their players to roleplay like paper bags, and lower-tier characters aren't automatically more interesting. Roleplaying flows from your character's concept, which mechanics exist to help support and implement, not from the mechanics themselves - and I would further make the argument that overly-limiting mechanics tend to hinder roleplaying, as they make it harder to represent your concept within the game world. If I want to play a warrior who is also a cunning diplomat, trader and leader, playing a Fighter is a great way to fail at that - but choosing a more versatile class like paladin, multiclassing rogue, playing a warblade or similar solutions can solve that problem.

mrcarter11
2012-04-03, 10:45 AM
While I'm hardly sure my opinion matters, I feel a need to post.

I personally have a love/hate relationship with Neo's homebrew. I feel you however, just hate it. His homebrew isn't for everyone, but in any thread of his that I see you post in, it's always a negative comment. And this bothers Me.

On the basis of this class, it as you put it, smashes face much better then a normal barbarian, and in my own humble opinion adds a little something to it, then just the bland class that the PHB barbarian is.

Your standard barbarian starts an encounter, rages, and then pounces, and then moves and attacks. Fairly bland, no matter how you slice it.

This class, gives the player a few more options, such as even giving the barbarian access to flight in one case, this class does things that are good to the standard barbarian.

Neo has stated in many threads, he aims at tier 4. The Wildshape Ranger, A relies on ACF's which means it shouldn't be taken into account in tier discussions, and B is almost always considered tier 3 because of how versatile and powerful Wildshape makes it past level 5. His class does what he wants it do. It plays as a more versatile, powerful barbarian, which I and a majority of the people that have posted in this thread, think is a very good thing. It is also in Tier 4 still, which is where the brewer likes it to be and wants it to be.

Honestly it sounds like this particular homebrew piece does exactly what homebrew is meant to, it makes the people using it happy, and the brewer is happy with it.

DrewVolker
2012-04-03, 12:12 PM
While I'm hardly sure my opinion matters, I feel a need to post.

I personally have a love/hate relationship with Neo's homebrew. I feel you however, just hate it. His homebrew isn't for everyone, but in any thread of his that I see you post in, it's always a negative comment. And this bothers Me.

On the basis of this class, it as you put it, smashes face much better then a normal barbarian, and in my own humble opinion adds a little something to it, then just the bland class that the PHB barbarian is.

Your standard barbarian starts an encounter, rages, and then pounces, and then moves and attacks. Fairly bland, no matter how you slice it.

This class, gives the player a few more options, such as even giving the barbarian access to flight in one case, this class does things that are good to the standard barbarian.

Neo has stated in many threads, he aims at tier 4. The Wildshape Ranger, A relies on ACF's which means it shouldn't be taken into account in tier discussions, and B is almost always considered tier 3 because of how versatile and powerful Wildshape makes it past level 5. His class does what he wants it do. It plays as a more versatile, powerful barbarian, which I and a majority of the people that have posted in this thread, think is a very good thing. It is also in Tier 4 still, which is where the brewer likes it to be and wants it to be.

Honestly it sounds like this particular homebrew piece does exactly what homebrew is meant to, it makes the people using it happy, and the brewer is happy with it.

Your opinion matters to thous who want to hear what others think, such as myself. I have not seen every post Gareth has made on Neo's threads so I can't say they are "always negative" but I am guessing he is not meaning them to look like they are. My best guess is he is simply trying to give constructive criticism and help Neo make classes that he views are the ones Neo can and should make.

Either way, I can see points from both sides and have stated my own in my previous post. One thing I would like to hear thou is how Gareth suggests for making this class, or any other class he thinks has no place more versatile, for the sake of me understanding where he is coming from.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-04, 12:31 AM
Alright, I've been staring at this text box for two hours (straight) trying to figure out a way to say this without sounding like a total arrogant jerk, but the best I've got is this: I'm not trying to speak from a pedestal here. I don't think I'm entitled to tell anyone how to play their game or that I'm the final authority on design in any sense. That being said, I do feel my experience entitles me to a certain amount of respect - respect, but not deference.

With that said, permit me to mount my high horse...now.

Yes, a lot of my comments come across as negative. I've dogged NeoSeraphi across several threads, making more-or-less the same comments across each of them with slight re-skins for the context. Why have I done this? Because I care. And not just in the general sense that I hate seeing bad design or bad design principles (critical feats: they're an idea that just should have never happened, and they're all WotC's fault. Friggin' Death Master....) - I care because I think Seraphi could be doing so much better. He's got an incredible work ethic and a solid grasp on writing mechanics, and watching him make 'fixes' like this or produce 'classes' like Assassin is intensely frustrating as a result - and hearing that he wanted them to turn out that way is even more frustrating.

Like here. I came in because I said this class was redundant. It is (oh, hey, by the by - turning into an eagle to fly makes you worse at doing your job than if you stayed human and grafted some wings into your back). Why am I frustrated by that? Because the Barbarian is already a perfectly-respectable tier four class, and is very well representative of its tier, actually. This 'fix' doesn't change its tier whatsoever and doesn't actually add any utility or power whatsoever. Why spend all the effort if you're going to accomplish nothing significant?

That's why I brought up other T4 classes as counter-examples. That's why I brought up the fix's niche and that niche's already-completely-filled status. Projects like this one, I feel, are wasting Seraphi's potential, and I want to see that potential fulfilled and not squandered on re-doing designs that have already, essentially, been done.

There, two cents offered. I now dismount my high horse.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-04, 12:47 AM
Why spend all the effort if you're going to accomplish nothing significant?

Assuming you are asking this question because you're seeking an answer, and not asking it rhetorically to prove a point, it's because I enjoy writing classes based on flavor and I enjoy writing classes made to better the game, and I do them both pretty equally.

That said, tacking a bunch of options and abilities that don't immediately fit with the flavor of a class is both a lot of work and doesn't really add much to the class itself other than weighing it down. In the end, is the class more useful along the spread of the game? Of course. But abilities that seem out of place or contradictory just for the sake of role continuity is what I consider to be sloppy design.

This class is supposed to be a wild savage who hunts alongside animals. He can fly, he can climb, he can track, he can blend into the forest, and he can speak to animals. All of these abilities are useful out of combat while the barbarian is in his niche.

Now, not once did you actually suggest an ability that I could add to the class to make it more appropriate. You just said "You should never have made this class." So I sit here and think "Great...why did you post here just to tell me that? I already made the class, so telling me that it was a waste of my time is neither going to unmake the class nor restore the time I spent making it."

If you think the class isn't necessary, whatever. Suggest something to make it better. The problem is that nothing that a class can normally contribute out of combat would fit in this class, which is the reason that a large majority of melee classes are useless outside of combat.

Want to PEACH? Then PEACH. I would welcome that. Derailing my homebrew thread for a full page just to say over and over "This thread shouldn't have been written in the first place" isn't contributing to either this class nor to my work as a homebrewer.

I don't write this stuff so that people will play it. If people do play it, great! I hope they enjoy it! I 'brew things because I like taking different concepts and applying 3.5 mechanics to them. It's just how I choose to express my natural creativity and it's a good way to polish my understanding of the different 3.5 mechanics and how they all mesh together.

mrcarter11
2012-04-04, 12:55 AM
Not to take up Neo's thread while talking about him, but I feel like I should reply since I sorta started this.

I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that fellow homebrew's generally have opinions about how to go about things better, and so from that perspective, I think you trying to help someone is a good thing. I do however feel that you use negativity more often then needed, and I'd assume that it puts Neo on the defensive, cause I know that's how I'd feel.

I'll agree that I get frustrated with some of his homebrew, however other things he makes, I totally love. Like I said, love/hate relationship.

He doesn't need to turn into an eagle by the way, he gets wings at level 6. :smallbiggrin:


I also disagree about not adding anything useful. It adds variety if nothing else. The totem powers customize a barbarian, giving it some small bonuses and extra feats to play around with. Nothing wrong with that, it also serves to make the class a bit more interesting in my own opinion.

Rage is now more powerful, and personally I love the idea of Master of the Wild. Now barbarians have a bit more versatility too depending on their totem shape. They can scout and do stealth, which before was something hardly any barbarian could do.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-04, 01:10 AM
If you want him to be able to track, Track is a rather cheap and inexpensive bonus feat - and it really would have to be a bonus feat, as I've yet to meet a player that would spend a Real Actual Feat Slot on Track at gunpoint.

What I've been trying to do, Seraphi, is dig into the heart of why you're doing this in the first place. Wildshape Rangers, Playing a Lycantherope, and Shifters are already things (all of them fairly big things), so I was scratching my head bloody and raw as to why you felt the need to make an entire class about it and then bill it as a Barbarian fix.

As for some suggestions, there's a couple I could make. However, I'd like to point out that right now most of this guy's abilities get weaker away from a 'wilderness' setting; at the heart of a city or the bottom of a dungeon, he can't really access his animals much. Additionally, on the subject of his damage reduction - it remains too low to be significant at the levels he gets it in any sense of the word. I wouldn't bother fielding silver weapons against one of these if they jumped me - I'd just hit harder.

With that in mind, have you considered SLA's or supernatural abilities relating to totem animals? There's a slew of abilities you can base it on or hijack to summon various kinds of totems or totem-spirits (like, say, a Ghost Brute version of your totem animal) to back you up. Additional class skills based on totem, such as a Horse-totem getting Knowledge (Geography) to aid in travel, might be nice to see hanging around. More interesting things to do inside of combat wouldn't go amiss.

I don't think you've thought the capstone that turns them into a lycantherope through fully. Aside from some wording/grammar problems, it gives the Barbarian in question additional hit dice, with all that entails - because that's built into the template. That needs to be addressed, because otherwise even a theoretical rat-totem Barbarian becomes an epic-level character the moment he hits 20.

Of course you're expressing your creativity, by the way. That's what homebrewing is, at its heart. But I think you could be doing it better. When you're designing for something like Magic: the Gathering, restriction breeds creativity, but that's not necessarily true in D&D - the trouble there, especially with a base class, is, 'How do I make this universally applicable?'. I mean, look at the unholy wrangling I've had to do with Harrowed (and I'm still not done) in order to make them broad enough to represent more than one iron-clad concept. You can do better. I want to see you do better.

eftexar
2012-04-04, 01:55 AM
I think this is more interesting than the barbarian, even though it doesn't fit my idea of what a barbarian is. Actually this sort of feels like a shaman that gets really angry. The totem abilities are really interesting.
Anyways a couple of things bother me. The DR is higher, but I think DR/- of half that is better because it can't be bypassed as easily. Silver is so easy to get ahold of or emulate. If you want to keep the silver, why not add in half of it as DR/- (so 5 DR/- and 5 DR/silver).
I think that the extra DR from master of the wild is too much (equal to your level is almost unheard of and even half your level is quite a bit).
The totem powers are particularly nice, because they function when not raging. Before the barbarian couldn't do much after he ran out of rage (which is actually sort of funny now that I think about it).

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-04, 07:30 AM
I think this is more interesting than the barbarian, even though it doesn't fit my idea of what a barbarian is. Actually this sort of feels like a shaman that gets really angry. The totem abilities are really interesting.
Anyways a couple of things bother me. The DR is higher, but I think DR/- of half that is better because it can't be bypassed as easily. Silver is so easy to get ahold of or emulate. If you want to keep the silver, why not add in half of it as DR/- (so 5 DR/- and 5 DR/silver).
I think that the extra DR from master of the wild is too much (equal to your level is almost unheard of and even half your level is quite a bit).
The totem powers are particularly nice, because they function when not raging. Before the barbarian couldn't do much after he ran out of rage (which is actually sort of funny now that I think about it).

The DR/Silver is due to that being the same DR that a lycanthrope gets. And as for the extra DR, that comes from the lycanthropy template itself, it does not come as a special bonus from Master of the Wild.

Also, if you have two types of DR, they don't stack, they just work together to prevent damage dealt to you, so DR 5/- and DR 5/Silver would only prevent 5 damage.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-04, 09:05 AM
The DR/Silver is due to that being the same DR that a lycanthrope gets. And as for the extra DR, that comes from the lycanthropy template itself, it does not come as a special bonus from Master of the Wild.

Also, if you have two types of DR, they don't stack, they just work together to prevent damage dealt to you, so DR 5/- and DR 5/Silver would only prevent 5 damage.

All of this is true. With that in mind, the DR is still kinda...small. Giving DR to PCs is a weird thing to try and balance (various gods and demons know I've had problems with it myself in the past) but I've generally found that players are more irritated by having DR that seems to do nothing than they are by not having DR.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-04, 09:13 AM
All of this is true. With that in mind, the DR is still kinda...small. Giving DR to PCs is a weird thing to try and balance (various gods and demons know I've had problems with it myself in the past) but I've generally found that players are more irritated by having DR that seems to do nothing than they are by not having DR.

Well, it does start out small, but it ends up being pretty respectable. DR 20 is pretty high for 3.5.

I suppose if it needs to be more level-relevant I could make the progression start at level 1 and continue every 3 levels as normal, capping at DR 14/Silver at 19th and becoming DR 24/Silver at 20th. DR 2 at level 1 is very relevant.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-04, 09:20 AM
Well, it does start out small, but it ends up being pretty respectable. DR 20 is pretty high for 3.5.

I suppose if it needs to be more level-relevant I could make the progression start at level 1 and continue every 3 levels as normal, capping at DR 14/Silver at 19th and becoming DR 24/Silver at 20th. DR 2 at level 1 is very relevant.

It can be, yeah, but it tapers off rapidly. I mean, like...like check out the Stone Bones maneuver. It's really useful at level one and remains useful for a few levels, but it tapers off quickly - and by the time you get the next 'bones' maneuver, the DR it gives you is rather underwhelming.

Not that I actually have a solution for you. Trying to balance DR gives me headaches >.< What you proposed isn't a bad solution for lower levels, at the very least.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-04, 09:26 AM
It can be, yeah, but it tapers off rapidly. I mean, like...like check out the Stone Bones maneuver. It's really useful at level one and remains useful for a few levels, but it tapers off quickly - and by the time you get the next 'bones' maneuver, the DR it gives you is rather underwhelming.

Not that I actually have a solution for you. Trying to balance DR gives me headaches >.< What you proposed isn't a bad solution for lower levels, at the very least.

Well, the difference between Stone Bones and this class feature is that Stone Bones requires a target and an action. It lasts one round and requires some reload mechanic. Meanwhile, this class feature is a passive, always-active ability that is not competing with your full-round actions and other class features for your actions every round.

Stone Bones becomes useless primarily because it quickly becomes not worth a standard action to an initiator. Meanwhile, the barbarian will always have his DR.

At least with this proposal the DR is closer to being useful at every level. DR 8/Silver at level 10 is pretty solid.

DrewVolker
2012-04-04, 04:23 PM
Hey Neo. I have another quick question about this class.
I noticed you went with the whole "Rage = Certain about of rounds per day" over "Rage = Certain about of times per day for up to so many rounds". Which I actually like. Lets you have a bit more control over managing your rage time, but it does lead me to a question.
How would you, as the class's creator, want the feat "Extra Rage" handled with this class. Iirc in 3.5 it gives you an extra 2 uses of rage per day, but in pathfinder it just gives a flat +6 rounds of rage per day.
I honestly find the pathfinder version of the feat to be quite a bit less "Awesome feat to take" for the barbarian, and +6 rounds per day compared to +2 rage/day seems like it kinda got the short end of the stick.

Either way, that is just my opinion on it, but I was curious what you thought about this.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-04, 04:32 PM
Adding my version of the feat to the class now.

eftexar
2012-04-04, 04:38 PM
I don't the DR is small at all. 10 DR is nothing to scoff at for a PC. But I forgot that DR 5/- and DR 5/Silver would just be 5 (it seems obvious now). What about DR 5/- and DR 10/Silver?

DrewVolker
2012-04-04, 04:40 PM
Adding my version of the feat to the class now.

Woah, I must say I really like your version of Extra Rage.
Thanks for listening to what I had to say on the subject and taking time to do something.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-04, 04:48 PM
Woah, I must say I really like your version of Extra Rage.
Thanks for listening to what I had to say on the subject and taking time to do something.

The Extra Rage feat as both 3.5 and Pathfinder designed it was intended to make the barbarian class as close to a one-level dip as possible. My feat adds quite a bit of rage, but only to those who actually train as barbarians. In my opinion, all class-based feats should have a little something in them to reward the single-classed user.



I don't the DR is small at all. 10 DR is nothing to scoff at for a PC. But I forgot that DR 5/- and DR 5/Silver would just be 5 (it seems obvious now). What about DR 5/- and DR 10/Silver?

Damage reduction is not a class feature, it is a racial ability. I have never agreed with the ability to simply shrug off damage by taking levels in a class. The DR/Silver comes from awakening your inner lycanthrope, which makes it racial, which makes much more sense than "I have more levels in barbarian than you, therefore I am tougher than you!"

As it stands now, the damage reduction is truly a frightening amount. DR 24/Silver at level 20 is an amazing boon for a melee class. Granting an additional, insurmountable damage reduction with no fluff explanation whose only true use would be to make it harder to damage the barbarian even with silver weapons would make it less likely for any given DM to approve this class, while not really adding anything to the class itself. So...no, I'm sorry. I don't see that as a class feature.

eftexar
2012-04-04, 04:59 PM
Ah I think you upped it a little bit since last night (I didn't actually look today). I was just taking a about the base DR before master of wild. I think 24 is a bit much.
This comes with two problems, either someone has a silver weapon making it completely useless or they don't and can't deal any damage at all.
Assuming you have a +8 from strength, another +4 from feats (not including power attack), and we'll say +4 from power attack or another class feature your melee attacks still won't deal more than 24 damage on any strike (negating any chance of dealing damage).
That is my problem with master of the wild's boost. Anything over 10 is just impossible to overcome in melee unless you are playing an initiator (and even then the average damage ends up not being much higher than a full attack, but it deals it as one set of damage so it overcomes the DR).

DrewVolker
2012-04-04, 05:59 PM
Me again here with another question about this class. Haha I do apologize for all the questions and comments.

Either way, I can't seem to find any mention of a rule similar to what he PHB barbarian had that said if he wore heavy armor he would loose class features.
Do you have the same restriction on your barbarian?
Example: If someone took a level in a class that added heavy armor prof or the barbarian decided to spend a feat to get it, would that mean he can freely wear heavy armor and use all barbarian abilities?

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-04, 10:29 PM
Me again here with another question about this class. Haha I do apologize for all the questions and comments.

Either way, I can't seem to find any mention of a rule similar to what he PHB barbarian had that said if he wore heavy armor he would loose class features.
Do you have the same restriction on your barbarian?
Example: If someone took a level in a class that added heavy armor prof or the barbarian decided to spend a feat to get it, would that mean he can freely wear heavy armor and use all barbarian abilities?

After reading this post, I reread the SRD barbarian. The only class feature the SRD barbarian has that is negated while wearing heavy armor is the Fast Movement class feature, which I don't give to the barbarian (only to the Lion Totem).

Now, it is true that I let the Lion Totem barbarian get the extra movement even in heavy armor, but you sound like you're thinking the other abilities should be negated as well, like a monk or a ranger. That's not the case, even for the SRD barbarian, and certainly not for my barbarian.


Ah I think you upped it a little bit since last night (I didn't actually look today). I was just taking a about the base DR before master of wild. I think 24 is a bit much.
This comes with two problems, either someone has a silver weapon making it completely useless or they don't and can't deal any damage at all.
Assuming you have a +8 from strength, another +4 from feats (not including power attack), and we'll say +4 from power attack or another class feature your melee attacks still won't deal more than 24 damage on any strike (negating any chance of dealing damage).
That is my problem with master of the wild's boost. Anything over 10 is just impossible to overcome in melee unless you are playing an initiator (and even then the average damage ends up not being much higher than a full attack, but it deals it as one set of damage so it overcomes the DR).

As you said, the DR is completely ignored by silver. If your DM is having a problem overcoming your DR, he can just hit you with silver weapons.

As for your problem with the amount, the DR is only 14 before level 20. At level 20, it jumps up to 24, but only while you are in animal or hybrid form (that's how the lycanthropy template works). While in your true form, your DR remains at 14.

Now, at level 20, creatures are dealing more than 24 damage with one attack. The tarrasque, which is a pretty nice CR 20 challenge, can easily Power Attack with -20 (+37 to hit with bite, +32 to hit with everything else), and almost completely ignore your DR just with that bonus damage. Other creatures have spell-like abilities that completely ignore your DR because DR doesn't apply to spells.

DR 24 at level 20 only matters as much as melee at level 20 matters, and often times melee isn't what your enemies are doing.

eftexar
2012-04-04, 11:29 PM
All valid points I guess. I tend to have the habit of comparing PCs, not PC vs monster (a bad habit I know). So I guess my problem is with that discrepancy, so I guess it depends on what you balance around (I'm actually pretty used to PC-like NPCs so there's that too). I hope D&D Next fixes this difference.
But that's a little bit of a derail, nice homebrew as usual.

The Mentalist
2012-04-04, 11:51 PM
Between this and Admiral Squish's Totem project I never need have my players encounter the same tribe of Barbarians twice.

Thanks for the good work.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-05, 12:22 AM
Between this and Admiral Squish's Totem project I never need have my players encounter the same tribe of Barbarians twice.

Thanks for the good work.

It's great isn't it, to finally have some class-based differention? I mean, you could say you were using a lion totem tribe for one group and a horse totem for another, but would it really mean anything to your players?

Meanwhile, if your PCs run into a group of centaur-looking creatures with horse companions and deadly lance stuff, well, then they'll know they're up against horse totem barbarians. (Horse lycanthropy. Best way to play a centaur)

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-05, 12:28 AM
Any ideas for how to fix the whole, 'hit 20, immediately gain bonus levels and LA' problem? 'Cause picking up the template also gives the level adjustment, I'm afraid.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-05, 01:02 AM
Any ideas for how to fix the whole, 'hit 20, immediately gain bonus levels and LA' problem? 'Cause picking up the template also gives the level adjustment, I'm afraid.

Read Master of the Wild again.


Master of the Wild (Ex): At 20th level, the barbarian has finally gotten in complete touch with his true animal self, and awakened powers that lay dormant within him. If the barbarian is a humanoid or giant, he gains the lycanthropy template for his totem animal (he may choose to either be a lycanthrope or a lycanthrope lord, as long as he meets the appropriate size requirements [A lycanthrope lord is a lycanthrope with the dire version of an animal used as the base animal]). Unlike the normal lycanthrope template, a barbarian receives no Level Adjustment, nor does he gain any racial hit dice. He gains all other bonuses the natural lycanthrope template grants, including an additional 10 damage reduction/silver when in animal or hybrid form, that stacks with his class-based damage reduction. A barbarian is able to control his shape perfectly as a natural lycanthrope, and is never at risk of changing his alignment due to his lycanthropy.

The LA or RHD hasn't been a problem since I wrote the ability.

DrewVolker
2012-04-06, 04:05 PM
Me again. Haha, I just had an idea I thought would be pretty darn epic for this class.

I know you got a really good list of totem animals at the moment, but I have an idea for how you could expand it.

One word: Dinosaurs.

I at first thought maybe just a dinosaur progression in general, but then I started thinking about how all the dinosaurs differ from one another. Anyway, you could just make a few types of dinosaur totem animals and people that want to pick a dinosaur just pick which type is closest to the dinosaur they want.

What are your thoughts on this?

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-06, 04:22 PM
Me again. Haha, I just had an idea I thought would be pretty darn epic for this class.

I know you got a really good list of totem animals at the moment, but I have an idea for how you could expand it.

One word: Dinosaurs.

I at first thought maybe just a dinosaur progression in general, but then I started thinking about how all the dinosaurs differ from one another. Anyway, you could just make a few types of dinosaur totem animals and people that want to pick a dinosaur just pick which type is closest to the dinosaur they want.

What are your thoughts on this?

That is a great idea, though the possibilities will be limited, since a Medium barbarian can only use up to a Large creature as its animal for the lycanthrope template. So classics like the Triceratops, Allosaurus, and Tyrannosaurus wouldn't be available (all of them are Huge).

I might do this, if I can find enough dinosaurs who are different and have a listed Animal Companion LA of -6 or less.

DrewVolker
2012-04-06, 04:30 PM
That is a great idea, though the possibilities will be limited, since a Medium barbarian can only use up to a Large creature as its animal for the lycanthrope template. So classics like the Triceratops, Allosaurus, and Tyrannosaurus wouldn't be available (all of them are Huge).

I might do this, if I can find enough dinosaurs who are different and have a listed Animal Companion LA of -6 or less.

After a quick bit of research I found that there are 28 different types of dinosaurs that can be animal companions. I am not sure how many are within the size range you said, but I'm willing to put some time in and find out.
Now as for the size issue though, if you felt like you did want to play say a Tyrannosaurus barbarian, but were medium size, maybe you could only become a "large" Tyrannosaurus, and not a "Huge" one. Applying the stat changes from the size change chart to the Tyrannosaurus you use for the lycanthrope template.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-06, 04:50 PM
After a quick bit of research I found that there are 28 different types of dinosaurs that can be animal companions. I am not sure how many are within the size range you said, but I'm willing to put some time in and find out.

Thank you, I'd appreciate that.



Now as for the size issue though, if you felt like you did want to play say a Tyrannosaurus barbarian, but were medium size, maybe you could only become a "large" Tyrannosaurus, and not a "Huge" one. Applying the stat changes from the size change chart to the Tyrannosaurus you use for the lycanthrope template.

That still involves going against the flavor and mechanics of actual D&D creatures and essentially creating a brand new animal just for this class, which I already stated I don't want to do. And even if I changed just for the lycanthropy template, the tyrannosaurus barbarian would not be able to get his animal companion for a long time, and wouldn't be able to Totem Shape until he had 18 HD. (Again, the only way around this is to create a "young" tyrannosaur.)

DrewVolker
2012-04-06, 05:16 PM
Thank you, I'd appreciate that.



That still involves going against the flavor and mechanics of actual D&D creatures and essentially creating a brand new animal just for this class, which I already stated I don't want to do. And even if I changed just for the lycanthropy template, the tyrannosaurus barbarian would not be able to get his animal companion for a long time, and wouldn't be able to Totem Shape until he had 18 HD. (Again, the only way around this is to create a "young" tyrannosaur.)

Okay, it seems that (going off the list I have of all official animal companion choices) 10 dinosaurs are able to fit within the -6 level or less category.

Now, assuming medium is the characters size (as we should) that means only small, medium and large animals can be used. Off the list of 10 dinosaurs in the -6 level or less category, 7 fit that bill.
Swindlespitter (MM3, Small, no level minus), Dimetrodon (DR318, Large, Level -3), Fleshraker (MM3, Medium, Level -3), Pteranodon (DR318, Medium, Level -3), Cryptoclidus (MM2, Large, Level -6), Deinonychus (MM, Large, Level -6), and Protoceratops (SAND, Medium, Level -6).
Not many of them are iconic dinosaurs, with the raptor being the most iconic in my opinion out of the options.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-06, 10:14 PM
Alright, if I have some time in the next week or so, I'll make some ACFs for this.

Story Time
2012-04-07, 07:17 AM
Hurray for savage-o-sauruses! :smallbiggrin:

DrewVolker
2012-04-08, 04:30 PM
Hurray for savage-o-sauruses! :smallbiggrin:

Since Neo said he'd try to make "ACFs" for it, he should name the dinosaur one "Savageosaurus" or "Barbarodon". Just sayin. x)

Story Time
2012-04-08, 06:07 PM
Since Neo said he'd try to make "ACFs" for it, he should name the dinosaur one "Savageosaurus" or "Barbarodon". Just sayin. x)

This made me laugh! :smallbiggrin: Yes, it did.

Actually, saurus is Latin. Savage has its roots in Latin also. So...if Seraphi is so...considerate of this thought...perhaps it should be called a Silvasaurus...

I really mean this politely! :smallsmile:

toapat
2012-04-08, 06:36 PM
This made me laugh! :smallbiggrin: Yes, it did.

Actually, saurus is Latin. Savage has its roots in Latin also. So...if Seraphi is so...considerate of this thought...perhaps it should be called a Silvasaurus...

I really mean this politely! :smallsmile:

Wood lizard?

No, Savisaurus and Cerabarb.

of course, Velociraptors (Clawfoots (Eberron Campaign Setting, Page 279-280)) are awesome enough as is