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View Full Version : The Qunari V.S The Aldmeri Dominion



DarthArminius
2012-01-29, 10:43 PM
Thus the battle begins. The Aldmeri Dominion wants to wipe away the world of the Qun and the Qunari. They believe that by killing all Qunari they can save the world from it's present existence and ascend into god-hood as a race once more. The Qunari know that many Altmer are mages, and thus deserving of the collar. The Altmeri Dominion have on their side, "Uber magic". As a race, access to Elsewhere and Bosmer Auxillaries, and of course, a kind of magic that doesn't get them possessed.

Qunari have their fire arms, superior warriors and Baserabas.

Who wins?

Flickerdart
2012-01-29, 11:51 PM
As the two opposing empires do not share a boundary, perhaps it would be appropriate to describe the circumstances under which they would meet one another, never mind do battle.

Psyren
2012-01-30, 12:16 AM
Elder Scrolls magic >>>> Dragon Age magic. Dragon Age mages explicitly can't teleport or fly, and their "summons" (various spirits from the Fade, which can't even really be controlled) would get curbstomped by Daedra such as Golden Saints.

Do they even have illusions?

DarthArminius
2012-01-30, 12:28 AM
As the two opposing empires do not share a boundary, perhaps it would be appropriate to describe the circumstances under which they would meet one another, never mind do battle.


Elder Scrolls magic >>>> Dragon Age magic. Dragon Age mages explicitly can't teleport or fly, and their "summons" (various spirits from the Fade, which can't even really be controlled) would get curbstomped by Daedra such as Golden Saints.

Do they even have illusions?

Will edit into the OP that there are the Summer Set Isles and the Islands of the Qunari. Assume that because of some plot induced circumstances, the only important battles happen on land, on the Isles.

Coidzor
2012-01-30, 02:42 AM
Well, despite being hipsters, apparently, I really do have to back the Qunari over the Altmer.

In the case of no naval engagements or ability to use magic to sink fleets, I'm going to have to give it to the Qunari, as once you get up close, traditionally, the downfall of the elves has been that they liked to think of themselves as being competent in a fight, which is how Pelinal Whitestrake beat them down when they were the Ayleids and how Ysgramor beat down the Snow Elves.


Elder Scrolls magic >>>> Dragon Age magic. Dragon Age mages explicitly can't teleport or fly

Elder Scrolls mages all forgot how to do those things anyway though, so it's not exactly an edge. :smalltongue:

Eldan
2012-01-30, 09:50 AM
Elder Scrolls mages all forgot how to do those things anyway though, so it's not exactly an edge. :smalltongue:

Which is a really silly explanation, given that more than enough elves have been around since the first age.

Psyren
2012-01-30, 11:38 AM
Oh yeah, they took all the fun magic out of Skyrim, didn't they? Sigh.

DarthArminius
2012-01-30, 11:46 AM
As the two opposing empires do not share a boundary, perhaps it would be appropriate to describe the circumstances under which they would meet one another, never mind do battle.


Elder Scrolls magic >>>> Dragon Age magic. Dragon Age mages explicitly can't teleport or fly, and their "summons" (various spirits from the Fade, which can't even really be controlled) would get curbstomped by Daedra such as Golden Saints.

Do they even have illusions?


Oh yeah, they took all the fun magic out of Skyrim, didn't they? Sigh.

Conjuration and Necromancy's still awesome.

Coidzor
2012-01-30, 02:42 PM
Which is a really silly explanation, given that more than enough elves have been around since the first age.

Just more proof that the elves aren't as hot as they think they are, that they got hit with senility.

Candle Jack
2012-01-30, 02:51 PM
It's kind hard to judge, because we haven't really seen the full offensive capabilities of the qunari just yet. Sure, we've heard plenty about qunari explosives and cannons, but have we ever seen them in use? We know that they also possess some chemical weapons, but the only time we've seen them used was by accident.

Mukora
2012-01-30, 04:02 PM
Qunari have cannons, Thalmor have... what? Shiny tinfoil armour?

Qunari win. Also, on the grounds that they're just cooler and less jerkish than the Thalmor.

Somebloke
2012-01-30, 04:53 PM
Hmmm....

On the Thalmor side: They have access to strong magic, and have already brought an Empire to it's kness. They are ambitious, flexible and extremely cunning, with a first- rate espionage machine.

On the Qunari side: They're tough, driven, disciplined and don't take **** from anyone. Their caste-system more or less begs to support a war economy. Plus, explosives/gunpowder is a potent mix, especially when you add the whole 'eight-foot tall killing machine' thing. Plus, they have experience in fighting mages.

Plus, you know, they're not the Thalmor. Pointy eared twits.

(waves 'Qun' flag)

Plus, the Qun is...well, it's deep. You wouldn't get it.

DarthArminius
2012-01-30, 06:11 PM
Hmmm....

On the Thalmor side: They have access to strong magic, and have already brought an Empire to it's kness. They are ambitious, flexible and extremely cunning, with a first- rate espionage machine.

On the Qunari side: They're tough, driven, disciplined and don't take **** from anyone. Their caste-system more or less begs to support a war economy. Plus, explosives/gunpowder is a potent mix, especially when you add the whole 'eight-foot tall killing machine' thing. Plus, they have experience in fighting mages.

Plus, you know, they're not the Thalmor. Pointy eared twits.

(waves 'Qun' flag)

Plus, the Qun is...well, it's deep. You wouldn't get it.

Bosmer Auxillary, ought to be a difficult nut to crack for the Qunari.

Weezer
2012-01-30, 06:30 PM
Bosmer Auxillary, ought to be a difficult nut to crack for the Qunari.

I had forgotten exactly which flavor of elf bosmer are (I have trouble remembering which -mer is which) so I googled Bosmer Auxiliary, and apparently google uses bosmer and wood elf as synonyms. Google never ceases to amaze me.

DarthArminius
2012-01-30, 06:44 PM
I had forgotten exactly which flavor of elf bosmer are (I have trouble remembering which -mer is which) so I googled Bosmer Auxiliary, and apparently google uses bosmer and wood elf as synonyms. Google never ceases to amaze me.

Wood Elves have proven to be quite lethal enemies. As have the Khajit.

Aldmeri Dominion managed to take them under their wing.

Mukora
2012-01-30, 07:25 PM
and apparently google uses bosmer and wood elf as synonyms. Google never ceases to amaze me.
... Because Bosmer are wood elves?

Weezer
2012-01-30, 08:19 PM
... Because Bosmer are wood elves?

My point was that I found it cool that google incorporated elder scrolls lore into their system.

Coidzor
2012-01-30, 09:05 PM
Bosmer Auxillary, ought to be a difficult nut to crack for the Qunari.

Summerset Isles never exactly struck me as a good place for guerilla warfare based upon hiding in the trees.

Nor do the Qunari strike me as the sort who wouldn't do exactly what the Khajiit did to the Bosmer to make them stupid and lose, that is, starting to destroy the forest to lure the Bosmer into a bad tactical situation. Granted, the Qunari aren't light enough on their feet to take to tree-top fighting like the Khajiit did.

Massed Archers seem like artillery would be something that would be good against them, and apparently the Qunari have that? :smallconfused:

Don Julio Anejo
2012-01-31, 02:58 AM
Any and all evidence I've seen points to rather poor artillery on behalf of Qunari. Think 1450's era bombards like those used to take down the walls of Constantinople, rather than nimble Grimbeauval cannons of Napoleonic era. Great in a siege, but completely useless in a field, especially against highly mobile elf formations.

That said, Aldmeri make extensive use of magic on the same level we use, say, radios and lasers. Helps that every single (Altmer AND Bosmer) is a mage by definition (even if Bosmer don't use magic that often). While it's probably slightly less powerful at the upper end (Storm of the Century from DA:O will mess you up), it's a lot more flexible.

"Special forces" type squads where every single member is an illusion mage with invisibility, silence and paralysis? Oh yes, you can do quite a bit of damage to Qunari command structure like that before battle even happens. Excellent recon once battle does start. Add in Detect Life from (?mysticism? forgot what school it's in as of Skyrim) and they get even more effective as it's now easy to evade patrols too.

Tactical mages in every unit. Cannon and muskets can't fire if they're frozen. Ward spells to neutralize the Saarebi (Saarebases?). Finally, Daedra conjuration. If there's one thing in Elder Scrolls that can take a Qunari in a straight up fight, it's a Xivilai. Hell, they even look identical. With an added bonus of magicka absorption and lightning spells.

As mentioned, Bosmer Auxiliaries for use as raiders and rangers.

The only thing they lack is good front-line infantry, or any sort of cavalry, really. To be fair, Qunari don't have much in the way of cavalry either, but every. single. one. is. built. like. a. fracking. tank.

The question remains whether the Aldmeri can use their advantages and wage maneuver and logistical warfare rather than try to take out the Qunari in a straight up fight. There's no evidence either way, but the high elves *are* described as quite cunning and *have* brought the Empire to its knees. Empire which has spellcasters that are almost as good.

PS: if Aldmeri really do try to zerg rush Qunari, they're royally screwed. Luckily, Elder Scrolls is one of the few settings where armies use actual tactics instead of "Let's all take our swords and run at the enemy!!!!11!1!!!" At least they do in the backstory, like all the combat manuals or history books.

shadow_archmagi
2012-02-01, 09:07 AM
I don't think Skyrim magic is that useful, particularly on the level that's going to be available to the majority of troops. (30 second invisibility is a level 75 spell. You'd have to be an extremely powerful mage just to keep YOURSELF invisible for any length of time, even without doubling the mana cost by keeping someone else around hidden.)



Tactical mages in every unit. Cannon and muskets can't fire if they're frozen. Ward spells to neutralize the Saarebi (Saarebases?). Finally, Daedra conjuration. If there's one thing in Elder Scrolls that can take a Qunari in a straight up fight, it's a Xivilai. Hell, they even look identical. With an added bonus of magicka absorption and lightning spells.


Skyrim doesn't actually have a freeze-you-solid spell (Although Dragon Age does). There's the cold version of the flamethrower spell, but that has a range of four feet or so.

Any decent Daedra require really high level mages, and you can only have one at a time (compared to Dragon Age wizards who can summon hundreds upon hundreds of monsters, I think the Qunari will consider this easier than normal)


My experience in Skyrim has been that the Thalmor are really really easy to kill. My theory is that they brought down the Empire primarily by subterfuge (Since the Empire insisted on treating elves like they were people)

DarthArminius
2012-02-01, 11:33 AM
I don't think Skyrim magic is that useful, particularly on the level that's going to be available to the majority of troops. (30 second invisibility is a level 75 spell. You'd have to be an extremely powerful mage just to keep YOURSELF invisible for any length of time, even without doubling the mana cost by keeping someone else around hidden.)



Skyrim doesn't actually have a freeze-you-solid spell (Although Dragon Age does). There's the cold version of the flamethrower spell, but that has a range of four feet or so.

Any decent Daedra require really high level mages, and you can only have one at a time (compared to Dragon Age wizards who can summon hundreds upon hundreds of monsters, I think the Qunari will consider this easier than normal)


My experience in Skyrim has been that the Thalmor are really really easy to kill. My theory is that they brought down the Empire primarily by subterfuge (Since the Empire insisted on treating elves like they were people)

Eh. . . Fluff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanics. Magic in Skyrim/Elder Scrolls is more powerful than PC interaction with magic.

In fact, magic scales very well with Briar Hearts killing the Dragon Born with one Frost Spike.

Anteros
2012-02-01, 12:52 PM
Any and all evidence I've seen points to rather poor artillery on behalf of Qunari. Think 1450's era bombards like those used to take down the walls of Constantinople, rather than nimble Grimbeauval cannons of Napoleonic era. Great in a siege, but completely useless in a field, especially against highly mobile elf formations.

That said, Aldmeri make extensive use of magic on the same level we use, say, radios and lasers. Helps that every single (Altmer AND Bosmer) is a mage by definition (even if Bosmer don't use magic that often). While it's probably slightly less powerful at the upper end (Storm of the Century from DA:O will mess you up), it's a lot more flexible.

"Special forces" type squads where every single member is an illusion mage with invisibility, silence and paralysis? Oh yes, you can do quite a bit of damage to Qunari command structure like that before battle even happens. Excellent recon once battle does start. Add in Detect Life from (?mysticism? forgot what school it's in as of Skyrim) and they get even more effective as it's now easy to evade patrols too.

Tactical mages in every unit. Cannon and muskets can't fire if they're frozen. Ward spells to neutralize the Saarebi (Saarebases?). Finally, Daedra conjuration. If there's one thing in Elder Scrolls that can take a Qunari in a straight up fight, it's a Xivilai. Hell, they even look identical. With an added bonus of magicka absorption and lightning spells.

As mentioned, Bosmer Auxiliaries for use as raiders and rangers.

The only thing they lack is good front-line infantry, or any sort of cavalry, really. To be fair, Qunari don't have much in the way of cavalry either, but every. single. one. is. built. like. a. fracking. tank.

The question remains whether the Aldmeri can use their advantages and wage maneuver and logistical warfare rather than try to take out the Qunari in a straight up fight. There's no evidence either way, but the high elves *are* described as quite cunning and *have* brought the Empire to its knees. Empire which has spellcasters that are almost as good.

PS: if Aldmeri really do try to zerg rush Qunari, they're royally screwed. Luckily, Elder Scrolls is one of the few settings where armies use actual tactics instead of "Let's all take our swords and run at the enemy!!!!11!1!!!" At least they do in the backstory, like all the combat manuals or history books.

Do they actually do things like that though? I've never seen or heard of any examples of them using such tactics.

Coidzor
2012-02-01, 06:33 PM
Eh. . . Fluff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanics.

...Now that's just a whole new can of unwanted worms.

Lamech
2012-02-01, 06:46 PM
I don't think Skyrim magic is that useful, particularly on the level that's going to be available to the majority of troops. (30 second invisibility is a level 75 spell. You'd have to be an extremely powerful mage just to keep YOURSELF invisible for any length of time, even without doubling the mana cost by keeping someone else around hidden.)



Skyrim doesn't actually have a freeze-you-solid spell (Although Dragon Age does). There's the cold version of the flamethrower spell, but that has a range of four feet or so.

Any decent Daedra require really high level mages, and you can only have one at a time (compared to Dragon Age wizards who can summon hundreds upon hundreds of monsters, I think the Qunari will consider this easier than normal)


My experience in Skyrim has been that the Thalmor are really really easy to kill. My theory is that they brought down the Empire primarily by subterfuge (Since the Empire insisted on treating elves like they were people)

Magic in Dragon Age normally isn't used in combat to summon monsters as far as I remember. Yes, wizards given enough time, can summon and bind demons, but that happens off screen. However, off screen the exact same thing happens in Oblivion. How do you think necromancers get undead to work for them? Or conjurers get deadra?

Don Julio Anejo
2012-02-02, 06:43 AM
Oh please, even in the game, every crappy conjurer or vampire can cast invisibility. Plus what you see in Skyrim aren't Thalmor line units. Rather, they're paramilitary inquisition units whose main purpose is to make sure people don't worship Jesu... err, Tiber Septim. Nowhere near elite and without combat experience of regular army.

Also, IMO it's better to leave ritual magic out of it unless we want to deal with another Oblivion crisis (hey, Mankar Camoran was an Altmer too!).

Oindoth
2012-02-02, 07:26 AM
I'm gonna have to give this to the Altmer as well, because what we see in the game is not the only thing they're capable of. Remember, the game's mechanics would make it impossible for tree-top fighting Bosmer to exist, and if we accept that they do, then we've got to take all of the fluff capabilities of Oblivion magic into effect.

Coidzor
2012-02-02, 04:15 PM
Oh please, even in the game, every crappy conjurer or vampire can cast invisibility. Plus what you see in Skyrim aren't Thalmor line units. Rather, they're paramilitary inquisition units whose main purpose is to make sure people don't worship Jesu... err, Tiber Septim. Nowhere near elite and without combat experience of regular army.

Alternatively they're special forces that are more savvy than their run of the mill Altmer soldiery. :smalltongue:

Oblivion Crisis can't happen again, last I checked.

Don Julio Anejo
2012-02-02, 09:21 PM
Alternatively they're special forces that are more savvy than their run of the mill Altmer soldiery. :smalltongue:
They're on the level of SWAT units, IMO. Excellent at clearing out buildings with or without hostages, near useless in, say, forest combat. Thalmor seem pretty good at gathering intelligence and "policing" their religious views, but aren't exactly regular combat units.

Oblivion Crisis can't happen again, last I checked.
Doesn't mean you can't open gates to other Daedra planes. I can just imagine... "The Shivering Isles Crisis: we'll yellow you with our powers of jumping radish."

Coidzor
2012-02-02, 11:19 PM
The Shivering Isles is a plane of Oblivion. Oblivion is not a particular plane, but the collection of all of the Daedric planes that are not Mundus(the material realm of which Nirn is one planet) or Aetherius(where the Aedra are supposed to be from).

It's some kind of deal about individual portals being able to be opened, but mass-scale portal openings being both verboten and impossible from what I read.

I'm sure someone more steeped in the lore will come around to clarify things though, especially in light of what all we've said.

Still, asking Sheogorath for help is most likely going to result in him trolling everyone, because he's Sheogorath, Prince of Madness, and possibly the guy who stopped the Oblivion Crisis.

Don Julio Anejo
2012-02-03, 01:20 AM
The Shivering Isles is a plane of Oblivion. Oblivion is not a particular plane, but the collection of all of the Daedric planes that are not Mundus(the material realm of which Nirn is one planet) or Aetherius(where the Aedra are supposed to be from).
Sorry, my bad. For some reason I thought Oblivion was just another word for Mehrunes Dagon's plane (which, upon checking the wiki is actually called Deadlands), not a general word for Daedric planes. Yeah, you're right.

It's some kind of deal about individual portals being able to be opened, but mass-scale portal openings being both verboten and impossible from what I read.
As far as I understand, the Daedra in question also has to want to open a major portal, the Aedra (aka the Divines) have to not interfere, and there's some complicated ritual. Although I may be wrong and Akatosh sealed off Mundus from major breakthroughs. I'm also kinda sketchy on what happened after Oblivion and there aren't really any in-game books that elaborate on the topic.


Still, asking Sheogorath for help is most likely going to result in him trolling everyone, because he's Sheogorath, Prince of Madness, and possibly the guy who stopped the Oblivion Crisis.
Exactly, Sheogorath is awesome :smallsmile:
"Hey, kids. Did I ever tell you about how I met your mo.. stopped the Oblivion Crisis?"