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View Full Version : Two-Weapon Fighting That Doesn't Suck (& Other Feats) [D&D 3.5]



Ziegander
2012-02-01, 04:51 PM
Fighting with Two Weapons
Your character may decide that two sharp sticks are better than one. Which is sound enough logic. When a character fights with two weapons he or she gains extra attacks in return for penalties to attack rolls depending on the size and weight of the weapons. A character that fights with two weapons, rather than one, may make one attack with his off-hand weapon during a full-attack action for every attack he makes with his main-hand weapon up to the number of attacks allowed by his Base Attack Bonus.

If a character chooses to fight with two weapons, attacks with a one-handed weapon in the main-hand suffer a -2 penalty while attacks with a one-handed weapon in the off-hand suffer a -4 penalty. Attacks with a light weapon in the main-hand suffer a -2 penalty while attacks with a light weapon in the off-hand suffer a -2 penalty. Add only half your Strength modifier to off-hand damage rolls.

When a character fights defensively with two weapons, he may reduce his penalty to attacks to -2 by forgoing all of his off-hand attacks for the round. If he does, then he doesn't suffer the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons for 1 round.

You may carry multiple weapons at the same time, even attack with more than one on your turn, without suffering the two-weapon fighting penalties. As long as you take no more attacks per round than you are allowed by your Base Attack Bonus, you make all of your attacks at your full attack bonus - regardless of whether or not you make some of those attacks with a main-hand Longsword and some of them with an off-hand Dagger. You only suffer penalties to your attack roll (and halve your Strength modifier) when you make extra off-hand attacks in a round in addition to all of the normal attacks you are allowed by your Base Attack Bonus.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Dex 15
Benefit: Whenever you make a standard melee attack, a charge attack, or an attack of opportunity with a light or one-handed melee weapon you may also make a melee attack with a light or one-handed weapon held in your off-hand at the same attack bonus. If you do, each of those attacks suffers two-weapon fighting penalties. In addition the penalties to your attacks for fighting with two weapons are reduced by 2 (to a minimum of -0). Remember to add only half your Strength modifier to off-hand damage rolls.

When you fight defensively and with two weapons, if you forgo all of your off-hand attacks for the round you gain a shield bonus to AC equal to the number of attacks forgone in this way.

Two-Weapon Rend
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Base Attack Bonus +2
Benefit: Once per round, if you hit and deal damage to the same creature with both your main-hand and off-hand weapons in a round that creature suffers 1d6 additional damage per two points of your Base Attack Bonus + 1 your Dexterity modifier. This additional damage can be bludgeoning, piercing, and/or slashing depending on the types of damage your weapons deal.

Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Choose a single weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls with the chosen weapon.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, but each time you do the benefits apply to a new chosen weapon.

Weapon Specialization
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Fighter Level 4th
Benefit: With the weapon you chose for your Weapon Focus feat you gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, but each time you do the benefits apply to a new chosen weapon.

Bear Claw Style
Prerequisites: Str 15, Dex 15, Improved Grapple, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefit: Once per round, you may initiate a grapple by successfully hitting and dealing damage to a creature with a light or one-handed piercing weapon. If you do, and your grapple check succeeds, then you may may make an immediate extra attack with a second slashing weapon that you carry without suffering the normal two-weapon fighting penalties.

Furthermore, while grappling you may attack with two weapons as well as any one-handed piercing or slashing weapon as if it were a light weapon. You suffer the normal -4 penalty while doing so as well as any two-weapon fighting penalties that apply.

Slashing Fury
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Weapon Focus (Any Slashing Weapon), Weapon Specialization (Any Slashing Weapon), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Base Attack Bonus +12
Benefit: Once per round, if you hit and deal damage to the same creature with both a melee, slashing main-hand weapon and a melee, slashing off-hand weapon in the same round that creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus + your Dexterity modifier) to avoid a grisly wound that prevents that creature from regaining hit points and bleeds it of a number of hit points per round equal to your Base Attack Bonus for the next 5 rounds. Any creatures within 120ft that can see and hear this bloody event must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus + your Dexterity modifier) or be Nauseated for 1 round. A creature cannot be inflicted by more than one "grisly wound" at a time. A creature that successfully saves against the Nausea effect is immune for 24 hours.

Greater Slashing Fury
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Weapon Focus (Any Slashing Weapon), Weapon Specialization (Any Slashing Weapon), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Slashing Fury, Base Attack Bonus +16
Benefit: Once per round, if you hit and deal damage to the same creature with both a melee, slashing main-hand weapon and a melee, slashing off-hand weapon in the same round, if that creature is suffering from a grisly wound dealt by your Slashing Fury feat, that creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus + your Dexterity modifier) to avoid being slain outright. This is a death effect, prevented by Death Ward or similar effects, and on a successful save the enemy is immune for 1 round per point that creature's save beat the DC. Regardless of the result of the save, allies of that creature that are within 120ft that can see and hear your attack become Shaken for 1 round (this may escalate other fear effects).

Kane0
2012-02-01, 06:01 PM
True to your title, this does not suck. Thank you for a good take on 2 wep fighting!

Now, a peach or two.

TFW:Was it intentional to make the chain so hard to obtain for non dex builds? the initial feat is ok at a requirement of dex 13, but its a bit of a stretch for a str based fighter to get the rest. If you want this to be dex only then an increase of 2 dex to each feat in the requirements is fine, if not would it be ok to reduce it to 1?

Improved TWF: I like how you incorporated rend as the second benefit, it seems a perfect fit.

Greater TFW: Dazed is a nice effect, but i cant shake the feeling that a lockdown effect dosent really fit with TWF. I also noticed that none of your feats include a second off-hand attack. At this point you have BAB +8, so would it be a good point to include that here?
EDIT: I saw up top that your gain equal off hand attacks as you do primary attacks. That seems the opposite problem. Now the DM is being bombarded with more than 6 attacks in one round at late levels! Maybe change the normal TWF rules to half the normal primary attacks to off hand attacks, max 1, then add another 1 attack with off hand via this feat, leaving you with 3 total.

Superior TFW: Perfect finish to the chain. Warriors need some death effects. 4 hits in a round is achievable but not too common as to make this save or die every round or two. But reflex sounds a little off. Why not fortitude? Also maybe change that standard 1 round immunity to a number of rounds equal to the number his save surpassed your DC?

Ziegander
2012-02-01, 06:22 PM
TFW:Was it intentional to make the chain so hard to obtain for non dex builds? the initial feat is ok at a requirement of dex 13, but its a bit of a stretch for a str based fighter to get the rest. If you want this to be dex only then an increase of 2 dex to each feat in the requirements is fine, if not would it be ok to reduce it to 1?

It was my intention to make it tough for for non-Dex builds. As you can see, most of the benefit of the entire published TWF chain is the default rule (before feats) in this thread. So now, since the feats offer many additional and powerful benefits, I definitely don't think that the feats should be easy to mix and match between builds.


Greater TFW: Dazed is a nice effect, but i cant shake the feeling that a lockdown effect dosent really fit with TWF.

It wasn't my first choice, but then again, I couldn't quite put my finger on what exactly I wanted it to do. Any other ideas? I'm starting to think maybe some kind of "cursed" wound that doesn't heal right, bleeds a lot, and nauseates other nearby creatures?


I saw up top that your gain equal off hand attacks as you do primary attacks. That seems the opposite problem. Now the DM is being bombarded with more than 6 attacks in one round at late levels! Maybe change the normal TWF rules to half the normal primary attacks to off hand attacks, max 1, then add another 1 attack with off hand via this feat, leaving you with 3 total.

6 attacks in one round at late levels is exactly how the published TWF feats work. I'm not offering any more attacks per round than normal (okay, actually I am, if you include potential TWF attacks of opportunity). Making TWF the rough equal of two-handed fighting was the goal with this part, and without granting all of the off-hand attacks before feats that just doesn't happen at all.

Hard Math

Even on DR 5 that's a significant reduction in TWF damage. And Power Attack doesn't even work with light weapons. In my opinion, TWF should be the high damage option. Even with these feats, dealing more damage than THF + Power Attack is difficult.

Let's look at a 1st level Rogue Str 14, Dex 16, with TWF (let's say she gets weapon finesse as a bonus feat just to be fair) compared to a 1st level Barbarian Str 18 with Power Attack. When the Rogue sneak attacks with two Shortswords the action looks like this: +3/+3, 2d6+2/2d6+1. When the Barbarian rages with his Greatsword, power attacking for -1, the action looks like this +6, 2d6+11. Against an AC of 15, the Rogue deals an average adjusted damage of 7.65 per round while the Barbarian deals an average adjusted damage of 10.8. If the Rogue didn't have Weapon Finesse, which is almost a given, then this looks even worse.

Let's look at higher levels, where a 10th level Rogue Str 14, Dex 22 with TWF and Weapon Finesse compared to a 10th level Barbarian with Str 22, Power Attack and Leap attack. When the Rogue sneak attacks with two +2 Shortswords the action looks like this: +15/+15/+10/+10, 6d6+4/6d6+4/6d6+3/6d6+3. When the Barbarian rages with his +2 Greatsword, power attacking for -3, and leap attacks the action looks like this: +17/+17, 2d6+26/2d6+26. Against an AC of 23, the Rogue deals an average adjusted damage of 51.7 per round while the Barbarian deals an average adjusted damage of 49.5. It's taken the Rogue 9 levels or so to pull slightly ahead of the Barbarian and that's counting that Sneak Attack significantly improves damage and ignoring DR. With just DR 5, that brings the Rogue all the way down to 31.7 and the Barbarian to 39.5.



Superior TFW: Perfect finish to the chain. Warriors need some death effects. 4 hits in a round is achievable but not too common as to make this save or die every round or two. But reflex sounds a little off. Why not fortitude? Also maybe change that standard 1 round immunity to a number of rounds equal to the number his save surpassed your DC?

I went with Reflex because there are very few Reflex save or die effects, and because it makes sense for a high level warrior to be able to just kill you if they catch you off-kilter.

EDIT: I altered GTWF and STWF with a new, more blender-like effect that better represents the style of fighting, in my opinion. Let me know what you think.

Kane0
2012-02-01, 06:59 PM
It was my intention to make it tough for for non-Dex builds. As you can see, most of the benefit of the entire published TWF chain is the default rule (before feats) in this thread. So now, since the feats offer many additional and powerful benefits, I definitely don't think that the feats should be easy to mix and match between builds.

Fair enough, but would it be reasonable to make the first two achievable for the average warrior (say dex 13 then 14) then make the other two harder as they are now (say 16 then 18)?


It wasn't my first choice, but then again, I couldn't quite put my finger on what exactly I wanted it to do. Any other ideas? I'm starting to think maybe some kind of "cursed" wound that doesn't heal right, bleeds a lot, and nauseates other nearby creatures?

You dont really want to give it a certain flavor one way or the other, and you already have extra damage from the rend effect, so instead of bleed damage how bout you make a certain amount of damage dealt unhealable?


6 attacks in one round at late levels is exactly how the published TWF feats work. I'm not offering any more attacks per round than normal (okay, actually I am, if you include potential TWF attacks of opportunity). Making TWF the rough equal of two-handed fighting was the goal with this part, and without granting all of the off-hand attacks before feats that just doesn't happen at all.

The way the original TWF is, you need to pay the feat cost to gain full benefit of attacks per round. Yours gives it all based purely on your BAB, which is fine on its own, but ending up with 8 attacks in a round with no TWF feats sounds a little off, especially if your not a dex warrior. Remember that if you want to be considered a true two weapon fighter, even within yourself, you want those feats to prove your expertise over that THF warrior that just grabbed two shortswords.


I went with Reflex because there are very few Reflex save or die effects, and because it makes sense for a high level warrior to be able to just kill you if they catch you off-kilter.

Thats cool, you may want to fluff that so it reflects your reasoning though.

bobthe6th
2012-02-01, 07:05 PM
The DM then produces DR, and the TWF cries as his meaning is shaved away...

But that is the weakness of TWF so it is alright.

Man... I think the razor just got some new specials(with your permision of course)

Also, bleed points might be the way to go with greater.

ngilop
2012-02-01, 07:13 PM
Nice set of feats, though I have to agree with teh save vs death makes a lot more sense than reflex, for the simple fact that cathing you off kilter as you put it is how a fighter is able ot hit you 10 times in a round, you consitution ot me, not you agility is what detemrines if you die.

other than that one thing, great ste of feats. I do have one question though.

Any plans to make a weapon+shield or just shield based series of feats or improving upon the existing ones?

Zeta Kai
2012-02-01, 08:16 PM
Hard Math

See, that's why I think that you are one of the better homebrewers here. You actually take the time to work out the numbers for what you write. Kudos, sir. There needs to be more analysis prior to hitting the Submit New Thread button.

Kane0
2012-02-01, 10:52 PM
Oh, i forgot to ask. Is the shaken effect form STWF only from a kill via save-or-die or from the attempt?

Ziegander
2012-02-03, 10:42 AM
See, that's why I think that you are one of the better homebrewers here. You actually take the time to work out the numbers for what you write. Kudos, sir. There needs to be more analysis prior to hitting the Submit New Thread button.

Thanks for the compliment, Zeta.


Oh, i forgot to ask. Is the shaken effect form STWF only from a kill via save-or-die or from the attempt?

The shaken effect happens whether the creature is actually killed or not.

In other news, LOTS of changes have been made, based on the concerns of other posters, rules interactions that I hadn't thought to account for, and general game balance issues. The feats still aren't exactly where I want them to be (For example a 1st level Dex-Based Fighter that takes TWF is still strictly less effective than a 1st level Str-Based Fighter that just picks up a Greatsword), but I'll keep working at it.