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Xzenu
2012-02-02, 09:10 AM
Recently, two hobgoblins were killed. One spy and one smiths. They were valuable assets of Redcloak, and he did want to resurrect then. Yet he did not, in order to keep the secrets of what had just happened.

The reasons was obvious: Keep secret that the Holy Symbol had been recovered, and keep secret that Tsukiki had been slain. However, these reasons has since been proven untrue.

So, what possible reasons remain for Redcloak?

* Both: Keep secret *where* he killed Tsukiko, he's going to pretend it happened while raiding the resistance base.

* Smith: Keep him from misspeaking at a later time, about having created a copy of the holy symbol.

* Smith: Could possibly know *what* Tsukiko was looking for.

* Spy: Keep secret that he is now able to cast 9:th level spells: Xykon must not get the idea to pressure him into casting Miracle or True Resurrection (especially on Tsukiko). Also, if he's ever going to face Xykon in combat, those high end spells can mean nasty surprises. Maybe a Miracle on a certain holy symbol?

* Spy: Redcloak plans to lie about *how* he could locate the resistance, maybe putting some blame on Tsukiki.

* Both: Redcloak is cold enough to keep them dead just in case there's some detail he missed.

Any other ideas?

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-02, 09:24 AM
I think its suffice to say we don't have enough info to know exactly why RC killed (or was glad they were killed) yet. I believe its one of those "its obviously a hint to RC's greater plan but it doesn't make any sense right now [near end of comic] Oh! It all makes sense now!" kinda deals.

Tergon
2012-02-02, 09:30 AM
Well, the craftsman is easy. He made the duplicate phylactory, and Redcloak can't risk anyone finding out the fake exists. Anyone other than him who knows about it, even a fellow goblin and an Elder, is a security threat. I doubt he'd have actually killed the craftsman to keep the secret, but raising him from the dead probably seemed unnecessary, if sad.

The spy's another story. It's possible that Redcloak thought the spy might also find out something about the phylactory - real or fake - that he shouldn't know, and Redcloak was worried the spy would let the secret slip. Or, perhaps, he learned something during his time in the resistance that Redcloak would have considered too sensitive for him to know.
Whatever the reason, Redcloak didn't just choose not to raise him from the dead, but openly admitted he'd have killed the spy himself were he not already dead. So there's something there. Most likely, as Mesi said, we'll probably be told when the time is right.

Beltaranis
2012-02-02, 10:03 AM
Redcloak had the spy in the Resistance, knew where they were but only attacked them the moment they stole the phylactery. It wasn't an accident.
If think it was his plan all along, to let the Resistance get the philactery, in order to get the time to replace the phylactery and a good reason to have it, perhaps.
We don't really know what his intentions are yet, it wasn't worth allowing so much hobgobelins to be killed only for that. But the spy knew RC could crush the Resistance anytime, he knew too much, whatever plan RC have.

Xzenu
2012-02-02, 10:06 AM
If think it was his plan all along, to let the Resistance get the philactery, in order to get the time to replace the phylactery and a good reason to have it, perhaps.

Also a good back-up excuse if Xykon ever find out that the one he got back is fake!

Xzenu
2012-02-02, 10:07 AM
Well, the craftsman is easy. He made the duplicate phylactory, and Redcloak can't risk anyone finding out the fake exists.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't have to mean that this was his *only* reason.

B. Dandelion
2012-02-02, 10:41 AM
I've heard it proposed -- and I'm not sure I buy it, but I thought it was an interesting idea -- that the spy was killed not for what he saw happen but for what he did not see, that there is down the line going to be some phony elaboration on what happened there.

It's not a happy thought, but it has crossed my mind that maybe the fact that there isn't an obvious reason is supposed to indicate that Redcloak's gone a little bit off the deep end with his paranoia. (I kind of couple it with the "talking to the dead man in the mirror (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)" bit some time back.) Not sure I buy that, either, but we shall see.

rbetieh
2012-02-02, 10:59 AM
I think redcloak really has a more religious reason for this. Remember what the Hobbo Afterlife looks like, most Hobbos would rather stay there than come back anyways. The only reason Jirix came back is the Dark One told him to. The high priest of the Dark One probably figures that these guys are better off with the Dark One than alive.

AutomatedTeller
2012-02-02, 11:15 AM
no, I think the spy died to keep from talking about how the resistance was destroyed.

I think Redcloak's plan all along was to use the phylactery as bait for the resistance, so he could destroy it and get his hands on the phylactery to switch it out.

Redcloak can now say basically anything about how he destroyed the resistance and it looks like he was just reacting to them taking the phylactery.

Psyren
2012-02-02, 11:38 AM
There's also a nice pile of ashes in his room that he can say is Tsukiko, if for some reason he wanted to cover up the means of her execution.

Fish
2012-02-02, 11:55 AM
The simplest explanation in my mind for the spy: Redcloak needed time to execute his phylactery switch, and didn't want anyone (particularly Tsukiko) to rush him, or to take possession of it until he did what he was going to do.

Remember, Redcloak chose that course before knowing Tsukiko was ransacking his study.

Psyren
2012-02-02, 02:21 PM
The simplest explanation in my mind for the spy: Redcloak needed time to execute his phylactery switch, and didn't want anyone (particularly Tsukiko) to rush him, or to take possession of it until he did what he was going to do.

Remember, Redcloak chose that course before knowing Tsukiko was ransacking his study.

Interesting idea: Had Tsukiko never been in the study to murder him, would Redcloak have killed the hobgoblin craftsman himself?

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-02, 02:23 PM
Interesting idea: Had Tsukiko never been in the study to murder him, would Redcloak have killed the hobgoblin craftsman himself?

Considering RC Disintegrated him, I expect yes he would of killed him regardless. I bet he would of produced a single tear at his lost (cause he is a sympathetic villian unlike Xykon).

Fish
2012-02-02, 03:04 PM
And is that why he had Jirix contact Xykon, rather than do it himself?

iBear
2012-02-02, 04:36 PM
Smith: Even if the smith was the only person in the world Redcloak trusted, they live in a D&D universe. As Redcloak himself demonstrated, there are a variety of magical and mundane ways to pull the truth from someone. Redcloak disintegrated him so he couldn't use "Speak With Dead" on the corpse, a spell Xykon knows he has.

Spy: Redcloak needed to make the switch. If the hobgoblins had won the battle with the phylactery, they would have taken it straight to the tower. It would have looked suspicious if Redcloak stopped and said, "uh, I need to take this to my private study for some reason." By killing or dismissing all witnesses and burying the hideout under a mountain, there's nobody but Redcloak to say what happened.

Xykon didn't care about Redcloak leaving Tsukiko trapped between an elemental and a blade barrier, so as long as he gives a semi-plausible answer, it probably won't attract much scrutiny.

BlackestOfMages
2012-02-02, 04:37 PM
the other possible reason the spy died is because Ttsukio/Xykon wanted the resistance wiped out as soon as possible, and the spy had been with them for some time under redcloak's orders - thus was proof, like the craftsman, Redcloak isn't a perfect little servant.

The Pilgrim
2012-02-02, 05:14 PM
The Smith: He made the fake, and nobody must know there was a fake in the first place. Simple.

The Spy: Had been infintrated in the Resistance for some time, and knew that the Resistance had a Plant next to Jirix. Yet Redcloak did nothing. He did not smash the Resistance despite knowing were it's hideout was. He did it only after the Resistance stole the Phylactery - something Redcloak could have prevented, since he already knew that there was an Elven Spy. Yet Redcloak allowed everything to happen. Too much details that must not been known.

veti
2012-02-02, 05:37 PM
Well, the craftsman is easy. He made the duplicate phylactory, and Redcloak can't risk anyone finding out the fake exists. Anyone other than him who knows about it, even a fellow goblin and an Elder, is a security threat. I doubt he'd have actually killed the craftsman to keep the secret, but raising him from the dead probably seemed unnecessary, if sad.

But RC went the extra mile to Disintegrate his body.

I'm guessing he doesn't want anyone, whose name may or may not begin with an 'X', casting Speak With Dead on it.

Math_Mage
2012-02-02, 05:43 PM
The issue with the spy wasn't that Redcloak didn't wipe out the Resistance fast enough. Neither Tsukiko nor Xykon particularly cared about them. The issue was, and remains, the phylactery switch. No one can remain alive (or accessible via Speak with Dead) to dispute the assertion that Redcloak took the real phylactery directly to Xykon as soon as he retrieved it.

Wrecan
2012-02-02, 06:23 PM
How would the spy implicate Redcloak in the switch? All the spy knows is he gave Redcloak the phylactery. He wouldn't have accompanied Redcloak to meet the craftsman. So he wouldn't have known about a switch.

I also agree that Xykon doesn't care about the Resistance or Gobbotopia. The only reason they stayed as long as they did was to extract information from O-Chul. Once O-Chul was gone, the only reason to stay was to find the phylactery. So having a spy in the resistance was irrelevant to Xykon.

The only possible bit of info was knowing that Redcloak has access to an arcane caster powerful enough to cast Polymorph Other, which may be a threat to Xykon. After all, Tsukiko was a theoretical threat to Redcloak because if she could get the other half of the divine portion of the Gate-Moving Ritual, Xykon would not need Redcloak. And if Redcloak can promote a goblinoid arcane caster to the point where he could cast the arcane half of the ritual, then Redcloak would no longer need Xykon...

For now, Redcloak's unknown caster only appears to be in the 9th -12th level range (making him a little less powerful than a member of OOTS). But by the time they get through Girard's Gate and go on to Kraagor's Gate, the caster may be powerful enough for Redcloak to make a move...

Fish
2012-02-02, 06:42 PM
I don't think the spy implicates Redcloak in the switch, no. He'd blab that the phylactery was found. Redcloak would lose the chance to do in private whatever he planned to do, as Tsukiko, Xykon, or Jirix crowded around.

Math_Mage
2012-02-02, 06:48 PM
How would the spy implicate Redcloak in the switch? All the spy knows is he gave Redcloak the phylactery. He wouldn't have accompanied Redcloak to meet the craftsman. So he wouldn't have known about a switch.

Had Redcloak left the spy alive, they would have had to return together via Redcloak's magic. But I agree, at this point that would make killing the spy a matter of convenience (he could drop the spy off somewhere else first before Word of Recalling to his study), which seems implausible. (Were this a modern campaign, I might argue that the spy knew exactly when RC retrieved the phylactery, which could create a suspicious 10-15 minute gap in Redcloak's story...but no watches = no problem.)

The goblin spy could theoretically be a wizard using Alter Self. The problem with duration is the same as with Polymorph; he uses a crossbow; and it's logistically much simpler.

Murray
2012-02-02, 06:59 PM
I get the impression that the hobgoblin spy had instructions to let the raid succeed and then deliver the phylactery to Redcloak, which is much harder to rationalize than having the spy initiate actions that would have sabotaged the raid and prevented the phylactery from coming anywhere near the insurgency's base. Being an agent of Redcloak's in this little scheme certainly doesn't seem to go very well.

Math_Mage
2012-02-02, 07:04 PM
I get the impression that the hobgoblin spy had instructions to let the raid succeed and then deliver the phylactery to Redcloak, which is much harder to rationalize than having the spy initiate actions that would have sabotaged the raid and prevented the phylactery from coming anywhere near the insurgency's base. Being an agent of Redcloak's in this little scheme doesn't seem to bode well.

Really? I find it much easier to rationalize the former than the latter. The spy did not have the strength to contest the top-level Resistance members. Redcloak did. The obvious high-percentage tactic is to use the spy as an informant rather than an agent or saboteur.

And I honestly don't believe Xykon would give one unholy crap about Redcloak's methods so long as he got the phylactery (and, as a distant second, obliterated the Resistance in some amusing way).

Murray
2012-02-02, 10:41 PM
Really? I find it much easier to rationalize the former than the latter. The spy did not have the strength to contest the top-level Resistance members. Redcloak did. The obvious high-percentage tactic is to use the spy as an informant rather than an agent or saboteur.

And I honestly don't believe Xykon would give one unholy crap about Redcloak's methods so long as he got the phylactery (and, as a distant second, obliterated the Resistance in some amusing way).


I'm not thinking of the spy as actually fighting, but rather giving away their position in the middle of a city filled with organized, mostly well-trained hobbo's that used to have a teleporting wight death-squad. Getting the resistance leaders mired in mass combat within the city would have made much sense than relying on a single polymorphed hobgoblin to stay undercover and stick to the phylactery like glue. The spy did get a message out, and it wasn't dancing lights. But the message was for Redcloak, who seems to be very intent on being an uncontested narrator for the debacle.

Redcloak didn't stop the raid in the city with an army of hobgoblins. He didn't arrive at the base with a crack strike force of clerics and magic-users. He didn't send in Tsukiko first, and then kill her if she managed to survive. And like you said, I don't think it matters too much to Xykon if Redcloak got the phylactery back by himself, or with a gang of singing dancing ninja clown bugbears that dual-wield rabid racoons.

Math_Mage
2012-02-02, 11:14 PM
I'm not thinking of the spy as actually fighting, but rather giving away their position in the middle of a city filled with organized, mostly well-trained hobbo's that used to have a teleporting wight death-squad. Getting the resistance leaders mired in mass combat within the city would have made much sense than relying on a single polymorphed hobgoblin to stay undercover and stick to the phylactery like glue. The spy did get a message out, and it wasn't dancing lights. But the message was for Redcloak, who seems to be very intent on being an uncontested narrator for the debacle.

Redcloak didn't stop the raid in the city with an army of hobgoblins. He didn't arrive at the base with a crack strike force of clerics and magic-users. He didn't send in Tsukiko first, and then kill her if she managed to survive. And like you said, I don't think it matters too much to Xykon if Redcloak got the phylactery back by himself, or with a gang of singing dancing ninja clown bugbears that dual-wield rabid racoons.

The existing system of DLights+Hobbos+Wights hasn't exactly been very successful at taking out the Resistance. Getting the Resistance leaders mired in mass combat means massive goblin casualties. In terms of believably rationalizing his involvement, that's all Redcloak needs to say: "I wanted something done right, so I did it myself."

B. Dandelion
2012-02-03, 01:34 AM
If Redcloak wanted Xykon to believe he took the phylactery straight to him with no detours, he couldn't have "replaced" the chain or presented the thing in a case.

Surfing HalfOrc
2012-02-03, 01:48 AM
There is an old saying: The only way three people can keep a secret between themelves is if two of them are dead.

But the short and simple answer is that Redcloak only wants one answer for Xykon, his own. Nobody else to muddle it up.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-03, 02:59 AM
If Redcloak wanted Xykon to believe he took the phylactery straight to him with no detours, he couldn't have "replaced" the chain or presented the thing in a case.

I don't think either would take long to obtain and replace. Heck, RC could of have them in his study (where his Word of Recall takes him and the fastest way for him to transport the phlactery) ready for when he does find the phlactery. He could replace the chain and put it in the case on the way up the stairs. There would be no detour involved, maybe a round or 2 spent picking up the chain and case and replacing the chain.

All of this is obviously not true but is a plausible lie RC could use (though I don't think he will use that specific lie, he's more cunning and smarter than I).

B. Dandelion
2012-02-03, 03:32 AM
The thing is that I initially assumed he killed the spy to cover up the time gap, too -- but when he showed off the fauxlactery and essentially admitted to altering it (minor alternation, to be sure), I was put back to square one. It would take as much time -- possibly less time -- to swap the real deal out with a fake as it would to replace the chain and give it a swanky carrying case. Throw in the "I murdered Tsukiko ten minutes ago" comment and there's even more time for him to do Dark One-knows-what to the thing.

I can only make sense of this if Tsukiko simply threw off his initial plan to have no apparent time gap (maybe he would have broken the fauxlactery's chain himself on the steps upstairs?), or if the time gap was never the reason the spy needed to stay dead.

iBear
2012-02-03, 11:24 AM
I think the better question now is why Xykon cared about finding his phylactery at all. A paladin couldn't break it with several hits and it's undetectable by magic. Having it get so lost in goblin-controlled waters that it takes an army to find it seems a pretty sure way of keeping it safe.

The Resistance would have never found it on their own, and Xykon and Redcloak can clearly cast spells without it (Redcloak using his "backup unholy symbol). Why carry it around again and take the chance of someone else ripping it off someone's neck?

Ancalagon
2012-02-03, 11:28 AM
I think he dislikes the idea he does not know where it is and who has it. Or might have it in a thousand years.

Trekkin
2012-02-03, 11:43 AM
I think the better question now is why Xykon cared about finding his phylactery at all. A paladin couldn't break it with several hits and it's undetectable by magic. Having it get so lost in goblin-controlled waters that it takes an army to find it seems a pretty sure way of keeping it safe.

The Resistance would have never found it on their own, and Xykon and Redcloak can clearly cast spells without it (Redcloak using his "backup unholy symbol). Why carry it around again and take the chance of someone else ripping it off someone's neck?

Because if it's somewhere else and Xykon dies, he regenerates there without knowing where "there" is. Besides, it's something to make Redcloak make his goblins do, and Xykon strikes me as the type who likes to exercise control for its own sake.

As to why Redcloak killed the spy and the smith, well, they were loose ends, and maybe more of Xykon has rubbed off than Redcloak is acknowledging. Certainly, the same goblin who had a mid-battle change of heart about a hobgoblin life's worth would at least be in a bit of pain over having to disintegrate one of their best craftsmen.

iBear
2012-02-03, 01:20 PM
Because if it's somewhere else and Xykon dies, he regenerates there without knowing where "there" is.

So? He doesn't need to breathe and can cast Teleport, so it's not like regenerating at the bottom of the ocean would be a major inconvenience. Worst case scenario, he regenerates in the belly of some fish. His damage reduction would keep him safe until he either rips his way out or casts Still Meteor Swarm.

He doesn't plan on getting destroyed again, and if his plan for the gate works, nobody would have the power to oppose him again.

Giddon
2012-02-03, 01:24 PM
I think even Liches cannot overcome something as powerful as the pressure of the ocean, say if he is over 100-200 meters underwater.

Plus, when he regenerates, he does so slowly, nothing says he regains all his powers as soon as he regenerates a skull.

Tergon
2012-02-03, 01:54 PM
The Smith was the only one to know about the fake Phylactory. I think his death (well, non-resurrection) is fairly well explained. It's the Spy that lacks a proper explanation... unless, of course, it was never about the Spy in the first place.

Redcloak knows he can't cover up the fact that Tsukiko is missing. Xykon would either demand to know where she was, or figure out she was dead and attempt to summon her ghost or something. So, he's got to tell Xykon that she's gone, right? He could make up some bullcrap story, but the risk of Xykon calling his bluff or figuring it out are too high. Instead, he outright states that he killed Tsukiko.
But before making that little announcement, he puts himself back firmly into Xykon's good books. "Your Phylactory was missing and I got it back. Me, alone, with no help, and I wiped out twenty-something high-level NPCs to do it. I'm capable of doing any task we need." Xykon gets buttered up by the return of his little bauble, and he's impressed with Redcloak taking the initiative and reminding Xykon why, exactly, Redcloak is the second in command.
Only then does he tell Xykon that he killed Tsukiko. There's no need to wonder if they need her help, because Redcloak has just proven he can handle things alone. Xykon's not about to call Redcloak out too harshly on it, because he's impressed that Redcloak pulled his finger out and did his job. Instead, Redcloak's firmly back at Xykon's right hand, and so if he killed Tsukiko, well, he must've had a pretty good reason, right?

If Redcloak says all that and then says, "Oh, and I could never have done it without help," it undercuts everything he's achieved and calls his ability into question again. Right now, if Redcloak is leaving Gobbotopia behind, the most important thing for the Dark One's plan and for the Goblin Race as a whole is that Xykon trusts him. Sadly, that trumps the life of one nameless Goblin Spy.
His death wasn't about keeping secrets, or about stopping the flow of information... it was politics.

iBear
2012-02-03, 01:58 PM
I think even Liches cannot overcome something as powerful as the pressure of the ocean, say if he is over 100-200 meters underwater.

The odds of of it reaching those depths are extremely small. I think the benefits of finding the phylactery are small compared to the benefits of moving on to the next gate immediately.

Math_Mage
2012-02-03, 02:02 PM
The thing is that I initially assumed he killed the spy to cover up the time gap, too -- but when he showed off the fauxlactery and essentially admitted to altering it (minor alternation, to be sure), I was put back to square one. It would take as much time -- possibly less time -- to swap the real deal out with a fake as it would to replace the chain and give it a swanky carrying case. Throw in the "I murdered Tsukiko ten minutes ago" comment and there's even more time for him to do Dark One-knows-what to the thing.

I can only make sense of this if Tsukiko simply threw off his initial plan to have no apparent time gap (maybe he would have broken the fauxlactery's chain himself on the steps upstairs?), or if the time gap was never the reason the spy needed to stay dead.

Yeah, that's my impression as well. Which leaves...what?


I think the better question now is why Xykon cared about finding his phylactery at all. A paladin couldn't break it with several hits and it's undetectable by magic. Having it get so lost in goblin-controlled waters that it takes an army to find it seems a pretty sure way of keeping it safe.

The Resistance would have never found it on their own, and Xykon and Redcloak can clearly cast spells without it (Redcloak using his "backup unholy symbol). Why carry it around again and take the chance of someone else ripping it off someone's neck?

Answered in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html). If Xykon doesn't know something like this HASN'T befallen the phylactery, he can't rely on it as a failsafe.

Ancalagon
2012-02-03, 02:49 PM
The smith is fairly straight-forward, I think.

I also had no real idea why he killed the spy. The theory that Tsukiko "threw the plans out of the rails" cannot be true as Redcloak killed the spy before that.

Also, given how unlikely it is that Xykon actually talks to the goblin who was a spy it becomes more puzzling.

So I have to assume that Redcloak just needs the spy dead to tie up lose ends. No one is around who could have seen the phylactery. Who might know something. Who could say something that might lead to... something.

We do know that Redcloak is evil and that he is also a very careful planner, so it might make sense to assume this is simply a cleanup and the prevention of some improbable situation in an unspecified future (and nothing more).

When we look for reasons Redcloak to kill the spy, I think we should look at it the other way around. Given what he believes is at stake with the decetion of Xykon (his life and with that his ability to proceed with The Plan for which he has sacrificed so much in the last decades) and the possible damage that will come should his little trick be known (somehow):
Can he afford to let anyone live who might be the cause for some chain of events that leads to the revelation?

The answer is pretty clear, I think. Once he decided to deceive Xykon on this, he only had the option left to be as thorough and paranoid as he can be.

Wrecan
2012-02-03, 06:28 PM
If Redcloak says all that and then says, "Oh, and I could never have done it without help," it undercuts everything he's achieved and calls his ability into question again. Right now, if Redcloak is leaving Gobbotopia behind, the most important thing for the Dark One's plan and for the Goblin Race as a whole is that Xykon trusts him. Sadly, that trumps the life of one nameless Goblin Spy.
This is my favorite explanation yet. I approve!

B. Dandelion
2012-02-04, 09:34 AM
I also had no real idea why he killed the spy. The theory that Tsukiko "threw the plans out of the rails" cannot be true as Redcloak killed the spy before that.

Come again? If encountering Tsukiko throws things off the rails, everything before that was done in accordance with a plan that became moot. Thus the spy died for reasons that were applicable at the time, but it became a meaningless sacrifice in retrospect. (Which is actually something of a recurring theme for Redcloak.)

I'm skeptical that this is what happened, but it's not impossible.

Ancalagon
2012-02-04, 11:42 AM
Ok, yes. That is valid. But I also am very sceptical. What did the spy see or hear that could cause strong headaches to Redcloak? I fear it still comes down to "he could have seen or heard something"... I think the lesson here is: Redcloak is Evil and ruthless.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-02-04, 12:47 PM
So? He doesn't need to breathe and can cast Teleport, so it's not like regenerating at the bottom of the ocean would be a major inconvenience. Worst case scenario, he regenerates in the belly of some fish. His damage reduction would keep him safe until he either rips his way out or casts Still Meteor Swarm.

Assuming he regenerates in a fish belly there is one very big problem for him. He is not immune to acid damage, and of course, a fish stomach is going to contain acid. I'm not sure liches can cast spells before they are fully-regenerated, I can't recall if Xykon ever did while he was regenerating from his gate encounter. So, if his phylactery got swallowed by a fish, he might spend the lifespan of that fish regenerating a small portion of his body, only to have that portion dissolved in acid over and Over and OVER again (which sounds both painful and time consuming).

There is also the psychology of the thing. Rationally, yes the odds that it gets swallowed by a fish or sinks into the crushing depths of the ocean, or tumbles into an active undersea volcano are all very slim. But if your ability to continue living rides on none of those things happening, are you really going to rest easy not knowing what's happening?

iBear
2012-02-05, 01:54 AM
Assuming he regenerates in a fish belly there is one very big problem for him. He is not immune to acid damage, and of course, a fish stomach is going to contain acid.

15 damage reduction. Even if he's taking 2d6 acid damage per round, it won't overcome his damage reduction. Unless there's some sort of jewelry-eating monster I've never heard of, it's unlikely it would be swallowed by anything he wouldn't burst right out of (a la V vs. the black dragon) while regenerating.

Of course, this is the D&D universe, so I'm well aware of the tendency for important plot devices to be swallowed by random monsters.


There is also the psychology of the thing. Rationally, yes the odds that it gets swallowed by a fish or sinks into the crushing depths of the ocean, or tumbles into an active undersea volcano are all very slim. But if your ability to continue living rides on none of those things happening, are you really going to rest easy not knowing what's happening?

Agreed, but if it got swept up in a current that took it far out to sea where it fell into an ocean canyon or volcano, there's no way they would have found it anyway. Xykon had all the initiative; the main opposing force was routed, he had all the information needed to find the next gate, and the protagonists were on the run.

He didn't intend on getting destroyed at the next gate, and once his plan comes to fruition, he won't need to worry about getting destroyed anymore. Sure, Redcloak's manipulations kept him in Azure City for a while, but Xykon could have overridden him if he'd wanted to.

R. Shackleford
2012-02-05, 02:30 AM
I think RC's plan was to use the phylactery to lure out the Resistance, because they probably would have eventually taken the city back once Team Evil left.

Xykon's orders were to find it and get the hell out of town yesterday.

We know that he was more than capable of wiping out the Resistance once he figured out where they were, but he didn't have time to stamp them out and keep Xykon from turning RC and Gobbotopia into a smoking crater.

Xykon was about to kill Jirix for his men finding and losing the phylactery. He probably wouldn't have reacted any more kindly to knowing that RC had used his soul jar as bait.

It was bad that they found it and lost it again. It was worse that RC planned to have it happen that way. Not to mention it wouldn't help his image as a hero if the spy polymorphed back into a hobbo and revealed that RC had casually thrown away so many lives in order to outsmart a bunch of elves and humans.

The craftsman's fate is obvious. He probably would have had to die anyway. RC has killed goblinoids more important to him than a craftsman without caring.

ti'esar
2012-02-05, 02:36 AM
Ok, yes. That is valid. But I also am very sceptical. What did the spy see or hear that could cause strong headaches to Redcloak? I fear it still comes down to "he could have seen or heard something"... I think the lesson here is: Redcloak is Evil and ruthless.

I honestly think this is it as well - the spy might very well not have known anything that posed a threat, but Redcloak is taking no chances on his fauxlactery plan.

B. Dandelion
2012-02-05, 02:46 AM
Is there a point to debating the validity of Xykon's desire to have the phylactery back in Team Evil's direct possession? Whether or not we agree with his reasoning it's at least clear what that reasoning is.

While Redcloak's is anything but.

Clertar
2012-02-05, 06:11 AM
Regarding the spy's death: it's very simple. Xykon needs to think that Redcloak followed the Resistance comando after they stole the phylactery, killed them and took it back.

The spy knew that Redcloak actually dropped some intel that allowed the Resistance to kill the hobgoblin team that found the phylactery (an insane risk, and pretty much treason to his side, but it was necessary for him, since otherwise he couldn't have kept the real one and given Xykon the false amulet) and that he already knew where they were hiding.

Teron
2012-02-05, 08:58 AM
15 damage reduction. Even if he's taking 2d6 acid damage per round, it won't overcome his damage reduction. Unless there's some sort of jewelry-eating monster I've never heard of, it's unlikely it would be swallowed by anything he wouldn't burst right out of (a la V vs. the black dragon) while regenerating.
Damage reduction doesn't work against acid.

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 09:31 AM
The fish would die one day, though. Then Xykon could regenerate in peace. But who wants all thatif it can be evaded.

BaronOfHell
2012-02-05, 09:40 AM
The fish would die one day, though. Then Xykon could regenerate in peace. But who wants all thatif it can be evaded.

Is D&D very different from the real world like that? In the real world I don't think it's very healthy for an organism to have something undigestable in its organism for longer periods of time. I imagine either nature takes it course and the Phylactery comes out with Poo just to get eaten by another Fish, or the Fish gets eaten by another Fish while having the phylactery inside and then it goes out with Poo or the Fish gets eaten again.

All in all, I don't think, unless D&D is quite different from real world, that the phylactery would stay long inside the stomach of any animal, but on the same time, I do not think it'd stay long outside either. Rather I imagine it's a cyclus of getting eaten and poo'ed out again and again and again.

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 09:58 AM
I doubt it'll be such a guaranteed unbroken chain. Xykon needs a couple of days and he'll get them eventually (with days or weeks, not even months). But still, do you want your (un)life insurance being... somewhere.

Caractacus
2012-02-05, 11:51 AM
One thing to bear in mind regarding the spy's death is that only the spy knows that the phylactery was held by them for a very short time.

This means that if it comes out that Redcloak got the phylactery back from the rebels and didn't simply find it in the sewers, he also has a bit of plausibility if and when what Xykon has is revealed to be a fauxlactery.

It wasn't Redcloak who gave him the wrong one, it was the evil rebels...

That said, Xykon's reaction is going to be so explosive under such circumstances anyway that the difference between 'anger at Redcloak betrayal' and 'anger at Redcloak idiocy' will be impossible to measure...

Ancalagon
2012-02-05, 01:14 PM
I doubt Xykon would buy that. If it comes out, Redcloak is paste and he must know that nothing is going to help him.

Maybe this really is his emergency straw but I somewhat doubt that.

iBear
2012-02-05, 06:23 PM
Damage reduction doesn't work against acid.

I think you're thinking of regeneration.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I understand why a lich wants to know where his phylactery is at all times. What I'm saying is that Xykon should have moved on to the next Gate immediately instead of searching for the phylactery. If his plan for the gates worked, he'd have all the time he needs to find the phylactery later.

Sure, he doesn't know that Redcloak has an ulterior motive, but from his perspective, that would have been the best course of action. Speaking of Redcloak, he should have tried to move on to the next gate ASAP, too. With the Snarl under his god's control, he wouldn't need to worry about forming a new goblin nation. The whole point of the plan is to help the goblins.

B. Dandelion
2012-02-05, 08:16 PM
Regarding the spy's death: it's very simple. Xykon needs to think that Redcloak followed the Resistance comando after they stole the phylactery, killed them and took it back.

The spy knew that Redcloak actually dropped some intel that allowed the Resistance to kill the hobgoblin team that found the phylactery (an insane risk, and pretty much treason to his side, but it was necessary for him, since otherwise he couldn't have kept the real one and given Xykon the false amulet) and that he already knew where they were hiding.

If I may restate this:

The Resistance had a mole within the hobgoblin organization, that Redcloak knew about. Said mole learned the hobgoblins had retrieved the phylactery and were able to ambush them and steal it. It's really unlikely this could have happened without Redcloak knowing about and allowing it.

The resistance went back to base and found everyone dead and Redcloak waiting for them. He kills everyone, including his own pawn who explicitly knew about the other spy and that they had gotten their information from him (he specifically taunts them over it).

Thus he gets his hands on the phylactery and anyone who knows the resistance's involvement was intentional (save Redcloak himself) is dead. So there's an apparent, completely legitimate, reason for the phylactery to have fallen directly into Redcloak's hands instead of being delivered straight to Xykon.

That does tie things together pretty neatly.

As a corollary to this: in the end, the presence of the resistance wound up working to Redcloak's benefit, as he was able to use them as pawns in his ongoing deception of Xykon. Wow. I feel even worse for Niu now.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-05, 08:21 PM
I think you're thinking of regeneration.

No, DR doesn't reduce or interact with elemental damage like Acid, ever. Thats why there is [Element] Resitance X. So unless Xykon has some class ability from a PrC or Base class that has yet to be mentioned that gives him resistance to Acid, he will still be subject to random monster's acid while he's trying to reform. Note he isn't regenerating as that is a seperate game mechanic.

iBear
2012-02-05, 09:27 PM
No, DR doesn't reduce or interact with elemental damage like Acid, ever. Thats why there is [Element] Resitance X. So unless Xykon has some class ability from a PrC or Base class that has yet to be mentioned that gives him resistance to Acid, he will still be subject to random monster's acid while he's trying to reform. Note he isn't regenerating as that is a seperate game mechanic.

If you're using the SRD as the basis... it says this about damage reduction:

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.

The entry for the lich says it gets supernatural damage reduction:

A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic.

I read that as not taking acid damage.

MesiDoomstalker
2012-02-05, 10:24 PM
...the type of weapon...

Acid is not a type of weapon. Magic, Adamentine, Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing, Cold Iron, Mithril, and Silver are types of weapons. Acid is an elemental damage type. If DR worked against elemental damage than Elemental Resitance is redudant and unneccesary. To damage a Lich through his DR with a weapon it must be magical and deal Bludgeoning. If I attacked a lich with and Orb of Acid, I'd deal full damage assuming the lich doesn't have an item, class ability, or spell active that gives him Acid Resitance or Immunity. DR is inaccuratly named, it should include "Weapon" or "Physical" or something similar. It only applies to attacks dealt by weapons, whether they be manufactered, unarmed or natural weapons. And stomach acid is not a "natural weapon" based on the rules (as there is no attack roll or saving throw involved nor is it a valid target for Improved Natural Attack feat).

Doug Lampert
2012-02-05, 11:20 PM
If you're using the SRD as the basis... it says this about damage reduction:

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.

The entry for the lich says it gets supernatural damage reduction:

A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic.

I read that as not taking acid damage.

The SRD quote on DR is:
The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones)

Energy types in D&D are: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.

Hence acid damage is energy damage and UNQUESTIONABLY gets through DR.

Alienist
2012-02-06, 12:02 AM
I double checked 827 and 828 and red cloak doesn't kill the spy and red cloak doesn't kill the craftsman(goblin)

The first time I read Redcloaks speech I noted that there was a possible reading that Redcloak was no longer able to cast raise dead, for reasons known only to himself and his deity.

After another reading, I think the emphasis is on Redcloak not wanting the way in which the resistance was wiped out to become known. But, oddly enough that was what the paladin (the one who killed the spy) was trying to get someone from his side to run away so that they could reveal that secret.

Said secret being ...?

That the phylactery was recovered? Hardly a secret when he goes and tells Xykon in person.

What then about the method that was used is at all interesting?

Perhaps that the servant of the Dark One is working with devils? In another thread someone suggested it was *too many* devils for him to summon if he's only just gotten access to 9ths.

Hence perhaps the reason the goblin spy who was killed by the paladin wasn't bought back was simply to keep the secret that those two groups are now cooperating?

iBear
2012-02-06, 12:07 AM
Oh.

Ok, I can see why he cares.

B. Dandelion
2012-02-06, 12:24 AM
I double checked 827 and 828 and red cloak doesn't kill the spy and red cloak doesn't kill the craftsman(goblin)

Yeah, but he expresses gratitude the resistance killed the spy and saved Redcloak the necessity of having to execute him personally. It's highly probable he would have offed the smith, too.


But, oddly enough that was what the paladin (the one who killed the spy) was trying to get someone from his side to run away so that they could reveal that secret.

Said secret being ...?

Niu is to relay back to Hinjo that the resistance is no more and Redcloak has the phylactery. This is important since Hinjo is in contact with the OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) and can pass along the information that Xykon's going to be headed to the next Gate ASAP.

Redcloak's deception is unrelated.

Emulgator
2012-02-06, 05:38 AM
Because it's a risk. And "stupid risks are just that: stupid." Even if it is a small risk, letting the guys who may let Xykon see the big picture live is not very smart.

Sethala
2012-02-06, 04:01 PM
Don't know if anyone else said something like this yet, but here's my theory:

We know that Redcloak's plan involves getting his hands on the phylactery, and having enough privacy to cast several spells on the fake and swap them, without anyone knowing about it.

Problem is, once the phylactery was found, there was going to be a large group watching over it, and giving it to Xykon. Redcloak wouldn't have had time to get it alone to do the swap before then. Luckily for RC, the Resistance intervened.

..Or was it luck? He had a spy as a member of the Resistance for quite some time. There would have been plenty of opportunities to go and kill them; they didn't spend all their time hiding in the base, they were presumably making raids on food stores, freeing slaves, etc. Why didn't he kill them before now? Because they, unknowingly, were part of his plan. Redcloak may have even known about their spy (a True Seeing would have told him, I believe).

So his plan all along was to have the Resistance take the phylactery, he'd go there and wipe them out and claim it for himself, then have plenty of time to swap it for the fake.

But then, why would the spy have to die? Simple - if anyone found out that Redcloak had a spy in the Resistance, and he had let them live for as long as they did, they would immediately want to know why he didn't take an army of goblins there to crush them. He knew where they were, and even if everyone was there, a large enough group would easily have killed them, especially if RC was there summoning reinforcements. Heck, Tsukiko could have helped as well, with her wights.

The spy didn't have to stay dead to keep the events of that day secret, he had to stay dead to keep his entire existence secret.

As for the craftsman, that's simple - he didn't want anyone to find out that he had a fake commissioned.

Morthis
2012-02-06, 04:33 PM
..Or was it luck? He had a spy as a member of the Resistance for quite some time. There would have been plenty of opportunities to go and kill them; they didn't spend all their time hiding in the base, they were presumably making raids on food stores, freeing slaves, etc. Why didn't he kill them before now? Because they, unknowingly, were part of his plan. Redcloak may have even known about their spy (a True Seeing would have told him, I believe).

A true seeing would have worked yet. I think this may have gone even one step further though. Given Redcloak's nature of meticulously planning everything, he may have been the one who had a spy in first, and then had his spy suggest the polymorphed spy idea to the resistance. That way RC would be sure the resistance knew when the phylactery was captured and could let the plan you described unfold.

Wrecan
2012-02-06, 05:18 PM
Why didn't he kill them before now?
Because the Resistance had resources that the goblins may not. So theyw ere essentially working as another group looking for the phylactery, which Redcloak would then get back from him. I really don't think the existence of a spy looks bad for Redcloak.... unless Redcloak isn't supposed to have an arcane caster to replace Xykon, a fear that Redcloak and Jirix play upon in this comic (833) to get Xykon to stop looking into Tsukiko's murder.

Xzenu
2012-02-09, 05:15 AM
Strip 833 give us a really simple answer: Redcloak was going for the "meh, whatever" defense. He successfully managed to get the issue out of the way and out of Xykon's attention span. And now there is no-one left to bring new information that might put the issue back into Xykon's attention span. Simple as that.

Of course, any of the other explanations we discussed may ALSO be true.

B. Dandelion
2012-02-09, 12:05 PM
I'm pretty much sold on the "he allowed the Resistance to take the phylactery" theory, which explains everything and is completely self-contained within its own plot instead of implying some other overarching secret.

In fact, in retrospect, it seems kind of obvious, but at the time it was too much "whoa, they found the phylactery!" "holy crap, the Resistance!" "oh God, Redcloak!" and "aaaaugh, Tsukiko!" in rapid-fire order. When I go back over the strips now, it really stands out how unnaturally lucky the Resistance was in being able to pull off the ambush and how fishy the whole thing was if you know how much Redcloak knew beforehand.

Snails
2012-02-09, 03:25 PM
I'm pretty much sold on the "he allowed the Resistance to take the phylactery" theory, which explains everything and is completely self-contained within its own plot instead of implying some other overarching secret.

In fact, in retrospect, it seems kind of obvious, but at the time it was too much "whoa, they found the phylactery!" "holy crap, the Resistance!" "oh God, Redcloak!" and "aaaaugh, Tsukiko!" in rapid-fire order. When I go back over the strips now, it really stands out how unnaturally lucky the Resistance was in being able to pull off the ambush and how fishy the whole thing was if you know how much Redcloak knew beforehand.

Agreed. There are many "coincidences" coming at us rapid fire. Redcloak arranging everything is the simplest explanation. Removing the spy hides the peculiarity of the timing coincidences from Xykon or a too nosy Tsukiko.

If the Resistance did not steal the phylactery, it would have been marched straight over to Xykon in plain sight. How exactly does Redcloak achieve the switch when Xykon might pop in any second? It would not be impossible, but it surely would be harder.

By "rescuing" the phylactery, Redcloak has the perfect excuse to use Earthquake + Word of Recall, thus gaining a minute or two alone with the phylactery in the privacy of his chambers.

Tsukiko popping in at that moment was likely to be lethal for her, even if she did not run her mouth off so stupidly, as she was accidentally interfering with the switch. In the long run, it was quite convenient of her to blab away, thus buying Redcloak time to think and making the moment for her demise an easy decision.

OPM
2012-02-09, 04:11 PM
Well, we now know one thing RC is NOT hiding: 9th level spells. He cast that gate for Xykon in 833, so that can't be a secret.

B. Dandelion
2012-02-09, 04:41 PM
Removing the spy hides the peculiarity of the timing coincidences from Xykon or a too nosy Tsukiko.

Well, also, the spy knew too much, although he didn't seem to grasp the significance of it. The resistance had a polymorphed spy in place, which was where they got their intel. Redcloak's spy knew it, implying Redcloak himself knew it, and if Redcloak knew there is no reason that information should have ever made its way into their hands unless he wanted it to. It would be really bad if some time later the hobgoblin let it slip that "yeah, the Resistance had a mole, but the Supreme Leader had their number already" and someone connected the dots and realized the ambush was preventable.


If the Resistance did not steal the phylactery, it would have been marched straight over to Xykon in plain sight. How exactly does Redcloak achieve the switch when Xykon might pop in any second? It would not be impossible, but it surely would be harder.

By "rescuing" the phylactery, Redcloak has the perfect excuse to use Earthquake + Word of Recall, thus gaining a minute or two alone with the phylactery in the privacy of his chambers.

Exactly. It's pretty slick, if you ask me. He played the Resistance off against Xykon in order to get the better of both of them in one swoop, and not only managed to get away with sabotaging his own side but came out of it looking loyal and efficient for getting the phylactery back single-handedly! Jeez...

Diadem
2012-02-09, 08:34 PM
Energy types in D&D are: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.

Hence acid damage is energy damage and UNQUESTIONABLY gets through DR.
A related question: What are the stats of a regenerating (sorry: reforming) Lich anyway?

I always assumed a Lich would be vulnerable while reforming, much like a baby is. Only a few hitpoints, no supernatural abilities yet, no DR. Am I wrong? Does a Lich already have all its hitpoints, and all his other skills / feats / etc even while he's only a skull yet?

Snails
2012-02-10, 12:08 AM
Well, also, the spy knew too much, although he didn't seem to grasp the significance of it. The resistance had a polymorphed spy in place, which was where they got their intel. Redcloak's spy knew it, implying Redcloak himself knew it, and if Redcloak knew there is no reason that information should have ever made its way into their hands unless he wanted it to. It would be really bad if some time later the hobgoblin let it slip that "yeah, the Resistance had a mole, but the Supreme Leader had their number already" and someone connected the dots and realized the ambush was preventable.

And that might raise some uncomfortable questions. First of all, the suspicion that Redcloak used the phylactery as bait to bag some stupid elves is quite likely to provoke lethal action from Xykon. Unfortunately, that hypothesis does not even quite make sense. If the resistance was ripe for the squashing, the ruse logically must serve some other purpose.

Xykon is not always detailed oriented, but he would be likely to think very carefully about Redcloak's motivations here, if the spy's information were to have come to light.

Kish
2012-02-11, 08:58 AM
A related question: What are the stats of a regenerating (sorry: reforming) Lich anyway?

I always assumed a Lich would be vulnerable while reforming, much like a baby is. Only a few hitpoints, no supernatural abilities yet, no DR. Am I wrong? Does a Lich already have all its hitpoints, and all his other skills / feats / etc even while he's only a skull yet?
D&D aside (and I don't believe D&D answers this question), it is evident from the time Xykon reformed before that in OotS, Xykon's reforming body is quite helpless for most of the process.