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Vknight
2012-02-04, 01:31 AM
So I've come up with the idea for an interesting item for a CoC game.
Its a small black rock.
What it does is it targets a 5' radius sphere and drops it to -1Kelvin(Or just a large amount of heat is taken) then immediately afterwards shots the objects in the sphere back up to there original temperature.

Besides the obvious that it probably insta kills most living things what would one think this would do to other things. I'm thinking

Also does anyone else have any cool ideas for items for CoC

SilverLeaf167
2012-02-04, 01:43 AM
I'm bothered by the item's ability to reduce temperature below absolute zero :smallconfused:
Cool idea otherwise, but unless all the baddies are immune to it, you'll have to watch out for the players using some shenanigans to flash-freeze Cthulhu & Co. And if all the real enemies are immune to it, it will be just an annoying, unsatisfying insta-deathtrap for the players.

Vknight
2012-02-04, 01:47 AM
1)....This is CoC.
2) Its CoC
3) Physics... None Euclidean geometry
4) It freezes then heats
5) Why would I give this to the party?"
6) Its Call of Cthulhu
7) There would only be one of it

tyckspoon
2012-02-04, 02:28 AM
3) Physics... None Euclidean geometry


That really doesn't have anything to do with thermodynamics like you're talking about. I mean, it's a neat idea for a Mythos-type item, but it's not related to the usual "Oh god the angles are all wrong, my brain is shattered!" stuff.

That said, I don't think anybody actually knows what the effects of reducing a macro-scale object to 0 Kelvin would be, let alone going to the far side- while 'negative temperature' effects apparently have been observed, it's only at the quantum level for very specific kinds of measurements. And we've gotten very close to the 0 mark, but again only on the molecular scale at best. So you could probably make up pretty much whatever you want, especially in regards to a Call of Cthulu gameworld- maybe going negative exposes you to an alternate world for the duration, where you are the 'hottest' thing there. Or maybe it makes everything exposed to it superconductive, and it was used as the core of an alien engine or computer that used it to achieve apparently impossible speed and efficiency.

But practically speaking? It depends a lot on the duration of exposure. If it's 'instant', or whatever passes in the game terms for 'no measurable time', then.. it probably actually does nothing. Freezing things destructively requires a little time for the crystals to grow, and if you don't allow that time- either by immediately reheating them or by freezing them so fast that their atomic motion just *stops* immediately- you don't actually do any damage. I doubt it would be a pleasant experience (although you might not actually experience it at all, considering) but it wouldn't be damaging.

SilverLeaf167
2012-02-04, 02:28 AM
Oh, now I get it, it's CoC!
Based on what I've read about Call of Cthulhu, instant deathtraps still aren't fun, like in most games. And if you're not giving it to the party, or even having the party encounter it at some point, why does it even need to exist or have stats?
And how exactly does non-euclidean geometry affect this? Regardless of what physics system you're using, I have no idea how you intend temperatures below absolute zero to work or affect anything... what will the atoms do, start shaking in reverse? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Ninja'd about geometry.
Also, after reading a bit more about negative temperature, it seems it's extremely (as in "over infinitely") hot rather than really cold, so I doubt it'd do any freezing even with a longer duration. Atomic-scale destruction, maybe, but not freezing.

NichG
2012-02-04, 03:15 AM
Certain systems can have negative temperatures. A system with a negative temperature is one in which adding more energy causes the entropy to decrease. An example of this would be if you had some sort of upper limit on the amount of energy that can be confined in a given space - if you got things energetic enough, the temperature would basically become negative. The interesting thing about this is that the temperature must cross zero, either through zero or through infinity.

The simple system I know of that does this - a spin magnet - hits negative temperature when its in a magnetic field and energy is pumped in so that half or more of the spins are aligned against the field on average. The more energy you pump in, the fewer possible states there are for it. I think it ends up going through infinite temperature to negative infinite (because the change in entropy with respect to energy goes to zero at half up/half down).

In any event, its probably not something as interesting as it sounds in play. If you do want some crazy 'sciencey' artifacts, I'd suggest the following:

- An object that locally nonlinearizes quantum mechanics, so that alternate eigenstates of the universe (i.e. alternate courses of events or whatever you want) can interact through it.

- An object that locally increases Planck's constant (while also altering the speed of light, etc to keep chemistry the same so that people don't die), so that things become macroscopically 'fuzzy' quantum mechanically near it. Maybe it only does this to certain kinds of matter to keep things simpler.

- A portal that rotates something through the fourth (spatial) dimension. Those who go through it once find that they start to lose weight and begin to starve. Medication also stops working for them. If they were right handed, they are now left-handed and vice versa. Why? Their chirality has been reversed, turning their right-handed biochemistry into left-handed biochemistry. Another trip through the portal cures them (its basically a Klein-bottle geometry in 4-spatial).

- One from a game I'm in: a material that, if energy is pumped into it, grows colder. No, its not a negative heat capacity - its a thermal transistor. The material is a portal to a space with a different temperature. The more energy it has, the more ability the portal has to transfer energy. Its basically a heat pump in material form, but its fun to throw at lava monsters.

- A spacetime swimmer. This object/entity apparently can move at very high speeds but seems to have very little to no inertia. It is performing internal rotations in a curved spacetime that result in a net displacement of its body.

- Something that creates superfluidity/supersolidity in nearby fluids/solids. Superfluids flow with no viscosity, but also have a number of other weird properties like counterflow, normal fluid vortices, etc. A good example of a crazy superfluid property is that it will flow up and out of a container.

Vknight
2012-02-04, 03:16 AM
In a setting with Geometry like that you shouldn't be questioning the physics.

Hmm thanks for that advice.
They are going to encounter it I'm just not going to give them insta freeze item

These ideas it instantly brings the object to below Kelvin or some other ridiculous temperature. This lasts long enough that crystals start to form but then heat is reapplied and I'm thinking the cool causes cracks and breaking then the heat shatters the objects in the area

SilverLeaf167
2012-02-04, 03:52 AM
Very well, just be wary of the players trying to obtain the item and use it in some surprising ways.
You might just want to limit it to 0 Kelvin, as if it really mattered, because based on what I know, negative temperature is actually extremely hot, burning things rather than freezing them. Feel free to correct me on this though, my knowledge of physics is somewhat limited.

TroubleBrewing
2012-02-04, 05:42 AM
This doesn't strike me as particularly "Lovecraftian".

I mean, I get the appeal. I just don't see what this has to do with CoC.

Radar
2012-02-04, 06:38 AM
In a setting with Geometry like that you shouldn't be questioning the physics.

Hmm thanks for that advice.
They are going to encounter it I'm just not going to give them insta freeze item

These ideas it instantly brings the object to below Kelvin or some other ridiculous temperature. This lasts long enough that crystals start to form but then heat is reapplied and I'm thinking the cool causes cracks and breaking then the heat shatters the objects in the area
If you drop the temperature to 0 K, there would be no crystalization - the atoms have to have some excess energy to activate the process. After all, crystalization requires the atoms to move, so it won't happen, if they can't move.
Fun fact: we live in a world with non-euclidean geometry, so physics can and does work. The spacetime swimmer is theoreticaly sound - we just can't build a prototype, that would give any measurable effect.

Storm Bringer
2012-02-04, 11:48 AM
In a setting with Geometry like that you shouldn't be questioning the physics.

Hmm thanks for that advice.
They are going to encounter it I'm just not going to give them insta freeze item

These ideas it instantly brings the object to below Kelvin or some other ridiculous temperature. This lasts long enough that crystals start to form but then heat is reapplied and I'm thinking the cool causes cracks and breaking then the heat shatters the objects in the area

my suggestion would either cool them to 0.1 kevlin and leave them thier and let conventional physics take over (which would kill a human easy), or have the item cool them, the rapidly jump the exact same height above thier starting temp they just went down to reach 0 kelvin (ie. form 40c to -270 off, then to +310c), and then back down agian. repeat until themal shock does it's work.

simmilar tricks include transfering half the bodys energy into the other half, pumping one persons energy into another (freezing one guy and boiling another), and concentrating all the energy/heat of a body into one small part, like say the brain.

Khatoblepas
2012-02-04, 12:22 PM
In a setting with Geometry like that you shouldn't be questioning the physics.

Actually, yes, yes you should be, since questioning the impossible is what Lovecraftian horror is all about, it's why it's horror. You're trying to understand something beyond your ken.

And the impossible angles is just geometry that's been projected in non 3D space, hence why Cthulhu and Co are so difficult to look at - they're intersecting themselves and shifting in and out of our vision in ways that are literally impossible, because we cannot fathom it. We slip between impossible things, but to them, we live as stick figures on a piece of paper, not knowing the third dimension. We can kind of understand it, but it would drive us mad to try and see all of it.

This item you've created, it needs to serve a purpose other than "kills humans with mad physics". Who made it? Was it the Mi-Go, looking to find alternate ways of transporting specimens to Yuggoth? Is it an artifact of a great old one, that sucks the heat out of things and converts it to power for the GOO to use? Is it PART of them, slowly trying to cause the heat death of the universe by drawing it into themselves?

Having something that bends normal physics is fine, but you need for it to have a purpose, a use that it is needed for. Otherwise it's just Gygaxian mean-spiritedness, and that isn't very CoC like. Call of Cthulhu is about investigation into things mankind wasn't meant to know. It's not about magic items that kill people for no reason. There can be magical items, and they can kill people, but there always needs to be some plan, some motivation behind it.

Vknight
2012-02-04, 02:13 PM
...You want to understand what it is ok.
Its a piece of the Grinning Man. The Grinning Man is dreams and manifestations of humanity gazing beyond the stars he is the collective creation of those who know what truly is yet cannot be. Literal manifest of those ideas.
His presence freezes the air. His breath burns it back to life and he knows soon they rise. He is between the place between places the silent watcher. He must not be but is. That which will rise beyond.
This piece of the Grinning Man is simply here and reasons are unknown.

I'm not saying physics don't work. But merely pointing out you shouldn't be questioning it. I'm asking for opinions upon the items etc. not how it doesn't make sense. In other words drop it.

Hmm thinking about it I have a simpler idea. Chills body, crystallization and brittle body, Reheats body cracking and shattering the area hit.
Simple no specifics but the process leading to damage.

SilverLeaf167
2012-02-04, 08:48 PM
Seems good to me. Sometimes no explanation can be better than a bad/weird/false explanation. :smallwink:

I guess the most CoCky thing about this item is the fluff and background, not the effect itself? Icy what's going on, seems cool. In fact, it's left me frozen, even. Pulling this on your players might still be a bit cold, though. Just thinking about what might happen gives me the chills. Though that's just my opinion, I don't think it's anything to sneeze at. Sorry if I'm coming off as bipolar or something, but I'm just trying to break the ice over here. Don't give me the cold shoulder just because I'm annoying.

please don't kill me

warty goblin
2012-02-04, 09:00 PM
It seems to me that this would create a stupidly powerful shockwave. All the air gets very cold, and so it collapses inwards very quickly. Then it gets very hot again and blows up like crazy because it's very, very dense.

This doesn't just flash-freeze things. It's a bomb that'll probably kill everything within a good distance. As a bonus it sucks everything nearby into it first, as the initial body of affected air collapses inwards.

Anderlith
2012-02-04, 11:44 PM
The rock would first crush whatever it touched into a small cold ball & then break in apart as it heated back up. Just having in out in the open would cause huge pressure waves from airflow...

Vknight
2012-02-04, 11:53 PM
Which is why it needs to be activated.

Also Silverleaf bad form man bad form. And that is the explanation the party just won't know for some time. As its a group of scenarios

I like the shockwave idea and its adds a new level to the item.
Hmmmm
You punch a wall then it freezes and the heat makes it explodes outwards.