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View Full Version : Why was this not covered in the DMG?!!



7RED7
2012-02-04, 11:37 AM
Okay, so I have the unfortunate pleasure of dealing with the classical situation where one member of my group is expressing interest (confidentially) in the only female member of said group. Now I know that this has never happened before in any roleplaying group ever(/sarcasm), so what have you tried in the past to deal with this kind of thing?

The situation is compounded by the fact that the significant-"it's complicated" / "room mate" of the woman in question is also in the group.

What have you tried when dealing with this, what worked, and what failed?

Honestly less concerned with maintaining a functional game than with preventing some retarded jerry-springer shenanigans from going down.

Bastian Weaver
2012-02-04, 11:41 AM
And how exactly should it affect the game sessions? I mean, they're grown-ups, right? It's their personal life. As long as they don't run around shouting "Strippirella and Armando sitting on a tree, K, I, S... cooking!", what's the problem?

Delwugor
2012-02-04, 11:45 AM
As long as it doesn't affect the game and the group I'd just stay out of it.
If it does start affecting the game then the only thing you can really do tell them to be mature and keep it out of the game.

What ever you do stay out of anything with the relationships between the three. Even trying to help as a friend can easily backfire and affect you and your game.

7RED7
2012-02-04, 12:03 PM
Oh yes, I want nothing to do with it (I'm an engineer, I don't "get" the psychology of mortals), but the dude is coming to me for advice and the best I can come up with is to facepalm.

I've heard of this sort of thing happening in other RP groups, so I just figured I'd draw down on other's experience with how these things go.

Z3ro
2012-02-04, 12:12 PM
Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but perhaps you should tell him that she's the one he should be talking to, not you. I mean, I know that DM is a powerful position, but anything not in the game is kinda out of your control.

Altair_the_Vexed
2012-02-04, 01:12 PM
(Why would the DMG bring this up? It's a social situation, and has nothing to do with the game you're playing: it could come up in a sports team, or a theatre group, or whatever. I'm not sure the RPG subforum is the right place for this discussion.)

As someone whose whole gaming lifestyle was largely ripped to bits a few years ago by soap-opera bed-hopping, and all the punch-ups, break-ups and lasting friction that lingers on after - I have to sympathise.

The only way out is through. Stay neutral, don't offer advice without being asked. Do not be divisive. Do not take sides. Do not let your friends pull you one way or another. Do not lie to a direct question.

Remember that people will act on impulses driven by their hormones, no matter how clearly dumb those impulses are.

On a positive note, people can end up being civil after the dust settles. It'll never be the same, of course, but then, the measurement of time is through the change it brings - so wanting tomorrow to be like today is only going to disappoint you.

Good luck.

Iceforge
2012-02-04, 01:14 PM
I presume you are the DM of the group?

Anyway, most of this advice counts even if you are not.

I'd tell him, that it might be a bad idea, due to the "it's complicated" being in the group too, but you won't and can't forbid him to act on any feelings he has, but if he does and everything turns sour, either because she rejects him or that they get together and upsets the "it's complicated" other part, you expect him to take responsibility and be the one leaving the group, if it comes to a point where someone needs to leave the group due to him acting on his feelings.

Zerter
2012-02-04, 01:39 PM
My advice is to tell him to go for it and watch hilarity ensue, nothing adds more fun to the D&D table than a lot of personal drama. If anyone involved can't handle it you know now that they're not mature enough to handle a difficult situation, which would lead to them not lasting in the long run anyway.

EDIT: Do try to make sure the hilarity plays out in the actual game by talking with everyone involved and telling everyone that when you're together and gaming you're gonna game and not talk about this. Then make some popcorn, sit and watch as people play out their feelings through D&D gaming while strongly denying it.

navar100
2012-02-04, 02:16 PM
You're the DM of a roleplaying game, emphasis on game, not the Boss, President, Parent, School Dean, Il Duce, Mayor, etc. You have no true authority over anyone playing the game. You being the DM is irrelevant.

Presumably, however, you are all friends. Deal with it as friends. D&D is irrelevant.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-02-04, 02:44 PM
Just don't give him any advice beyond what your initial reaction (either you think it's fine and he should go for it, or he's being silly.) but make it clear that you don't want to get caught in the middle (if this is the case) so he'll just have to sort this out on his own. Also make it clear to anyone involved in the game that game-time is game-time and while everyone is entitled to think and feel and do whatever with whoever whenever you don't want to deal with it during the game and anyone who can't handle that is free to leave the game, or if they're having a really bad day just give a heads up and don't come to the game that day.

But really, in the end, stay the heck out of it, those kind of dramas have an ugly habit of not ending well.

Ravens_cry
2012-02-04, 04:01 PM
I'm confused, is this a role play question or an out of game question? Either way, I agree it is they who should be discussing this. In the former question, so they can set boundaries on what each is comfortable with. For example, I have no problem playing a character who hits on NPC of their preferred gender, even when the DM is not my preferred gender. But I wouldn't do it if the DM wasn't comfortable with it.

KillianHawkeye
2012-02-04, 04:01 PM
Nothing in the DMG? Hmm... did you check the BoEF? I'll bet Gygax wrote a random table for this in an older edition that you could probably use. :smallwink::smallamused:

ngilop
2012-02-04, 04:09 PM
Social situation.. that is REAL LIFE social situation as far as a know are not covered in any game book, as they are strictly designed to onlu focus on the game they are written for.

as long as both parties ( or all 3 parties, or however many) are Ok with it, and have no ultieror motive its fine.



I had a situation like this a few years ago and it is the single best moment of my long DMing career. I had a female who was RPing as a lesbian and well.. was very very into it. Several months after that game ended I ran into her, got a huge hug from a teray lady and she kept thanking me.. I had no idea what was going on at all, its kind of odd to be in the middle of a store and have a girl crying and hugging all over you syain thanks, you change dmy life etc etc out of nowhere.. I got her out of there and took her to a local short-order restaurant and she told me that Me allowing her to play as a lesbian helped her o come to tersm with ebing one herself and gave her the courage to 'come-out' to her friends and family. Id say, probably the best complitemn a DM could get IMO, how you thorugh a game helped somebody grow and become a better person.




Also as the rules and enforcement of said rules is very stirct and followed extrmey closely, I want to go on record saying that ,officially on these forums, I neither condemn nor support Homosexuality.

Hashmir
2012-02-04, 07:42 PM
Okay, so I have the unfortunate pleasure of dealing with the classical situation where one member of my group is expressing interest (confidentially) in the only female member of said group. Now I know that this has never happened before in any roleplaying group ever(/sarcasm), so what have you tried in the past to deal with this kind of thing?

The situation is compounded by the fact that the significant-"it's complicated" / "room mate" of the woman in question is also in the group.

*facepalm*

Out of curiosity, how old is this group? Because this sounds like a high-school/early college type problem, although the roommate business makes it sound like they're maybe older than that.

But regarding the actual problem, I have bad news for you: This is going to get stupid. You know how I know it's going to get stupid? Because you have a guy - and I'll bet you 10% WBL he's a self-declared "Nice Guy™" - who has decided that he is interested in the one woman in the group, who apparently has her own stuff going on that in no way involves romantically pursuing him, and that the best way to deal with this is to go to the DM.

So I second NikitaDarkstar (which I seem to be doing a lot lately :smallbiggrin:) in saying that you should stay out of it. This is between him and her.

That said, I would advise that you at least try to minimize the resulting stupid by suggesting that the guy handle this like an adult. If he's got something to say to her, he should do it on his own time. If he wants a relationship or whatever with her, he should either talk to her or deal with it. The one thing you absolutely do not want is him spending every damn gaming session maneuvering to sit next to her, and having his character make suggestive "jokes" to her character, and generally trying to passive-aggressively drop hints that he's interested in her without coming out and saying it, thus annoying the hell out of everybody and making for an awkward and unpleasant gaming experience.

If that's not happening, then you (as a DM) don't have a problem, and everybody wins.

EDIT: Just to be clear, even though I make some slightly snarky assumptions about your player above, I do rather hope I'm wrong. It very well could be that he's more mature than he sounds to me, in which case it'll work out fine. Like I said, if it's not causing problems during the game, then it's all good.

Urslingen
2012-02-04, 09:03 PM
Easy-peasy.

Just take the gal for yourself. Problem solved.

Peace Out.

- Urslingen

Incom
2012-02-04, 09:46 PM
Honestly, I don't think the end result of this matters as long as everyone at the table remains friends.

Just tell him to keep that in mind.

SilverClawShift
2012-02-04, 09:50 PM
I mean, I know that DM is a powerful position, but anything not in the game is kinda out of your control.

...depending on the type of game you're playing.

Grinner
2012-02-04, 11:04 PM
Because you have a guy - and I'll bet you 10% WBL he's a self-declared "Nice Guy™"

If this is true, then he has forgotten one of the most basic rules of playing the Nice Guy: You never get the girl.

Manateee
2012-02-04, 11:05 PM
Him: Ask her out.

You: If it gets in the way of the game, ask your friends to cool it. If it doesn't, keep doing what you're doing.

Coidzor
2012-02-05, 12:13 AM
So you want to have some out from him asking you for advice and to have a tactful way to try to ensure this doesn't bleed over into the game?

I just want to make sure that I'm understanding your motives correctly so that some more constructive comments can be generated.


...depending on the type of game you're playing.

Now that right there? That's just ominous. The very thought of a DM having control over my personal life is giving me the jibblies (http://www.homestarrunner.com/ween07.html).

Xyk
2012-02-05, 03:01 AM
Roll a d20 and add modifiers based on the probability of this relationship working successfully.

If the roll succeeds, advise him to go for it headlong.
If the roll fails, advise him to forget this girl ever existed.

Solaris
2012-02-05, 03:31 AM
... So a feller came to you for advice about whether or not he should attempt to pursue a relationship with this gal, and you're asking us despite the forum knowing next to nothing about any of the parties involved?
Huh.

Well, your amigo there can continue nursing his crush, or he can ask the girl out. Worst case scenario, she says no. Back in high school, one of the social circles I used to frequent had one girl and a bunch of nerdy guys. Damn near all of them asked her out at one point or another, and she turned them all down. Nobody made any drama about it, though there was some disappointment involved. Honest, not everything turns out in flaming wreckage strewn across the landscape.

Knaight
2012-02-05, 05:06 AM
Well, your amigo there can continue nursing his crush, or he can ask the girl out. Worst case scenario, she says no.

There is also the "wait for her to ask me out" option, which I point out more for the sake of being thorough than for it being a good idea. Granted, what little we know suggests that good ideas might be in short supply in this anyways.

Kaww
2012-02-05, 05:17 AM
Well, if they are both mature about it and if your friend can handle being rejected by a girl with which he will have to spend a lot of time there is no problem.

My groups have people that date/used to date each other. I play in a game with my ex, my cousin,, his ex and my current gf. We always play as a team and are rather careful not to offend other players, regardless of our current relation with them. I find this a mere common curtsy, but from some stories I read around here it's not as common as you would think...

So if they are civil your game should be left unchanged. As for my advice for you: Do not get involved, unless they both ask you. You can give advice to either or both of them, if advice is asked.

You are the boss in the game, not in the real world. Always remember that.

Coidzor
2012-02-05, 05:32 AM
There is also the "wait for her to ask me out" option, which I point out more for the sake of being thorough than for it being a good idea. Granted, what little we know suggests that good ideas might be in short supply in this anyways.

...I'm not sure why exactly, but that reminds me, I've attempted to bring this to the attention of the Relationship Woes and Advice thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12662285#post12662285), but it's in a bit of a lull right now, or so it seems. Just thought I ought to mention that.

Hopefully the OP will clarify what he wants out of us and provide additional context soonish.

motoko's ghost
2012-02-05, 05:41 AM
Player relationships aren't covered in the DMG because we aren't playing those sorts of roleplaying games.:tongue:

ClothedInVelvet
2012-02-05, 06:34 AM
It seems like the good and mediocre ideas have all been posted, so now it's time to get into the terrible ideas. :smallbiggrin:

You could make the PCs watch while a group of NPCs goes through the same situation that's occurring in your group. Give them some perspective.

Put their PCs in a situation where they can play this out (cut off from the rest of the party by a rockslide and soon to die).

Really, as has been said, you're the DM. That should not impact your social status (unless you're the DM because you're generally the most forceful person in your social circle).

Knaight
2012-02-05, 06:39 AM
Really, as has been said, you're the DM. That should not impact your social status (unless you're the DM because you're generally the most forceful person in your social circle).

That isn't the social status being influenced by being the GM, but the role of GM being influenced by social status. Also, this thread needed more pedantry.

Zorg
2012-02-05, 07:53 AM
Player relationships aren't covered in the DMG because we aren't playing those sorts of roleplaying games.:tongue:

Maybe you're not - we put the 'live action' in LARPing... I mean, uh... :smalleek:


My advice to the OP would be to tell the player to step off for now, not due to anything else but the "it's complicated" part of the room mate relationship.

TriForce
2012-02-05, 08:35 AM
well it seems to me you worried about the situation possibly disrupting the game and/or any friendschips in the group.

if you and your friends are responcible adults (or close enough) then you can just ask that friend to keep it out of the game and solve his dilemma in his own time so that the others wont get involved.

problem is, that wont work. ever. even unknown to the person himself it will constantly influence his attitude towards the female member and it will potentially annoy the rest of the group. there is no easy awnser to all of this im afraid, the best thing you yourself can do is avoid picking sides and/or getting involved

Slipperychicken
2012-02-05, 11:28 AM
OOC relationships aren't in the core ruleset. Ask her to set a seduction DC, then have him roll for it. Problem solved.

Solaris
2012-02-05, 12:55 PM
OOC relationships aren't in the core ruleset. Ask her to set a seduction DC, then have him roll for it. Problem solved.

I think I woke somebody in the tent up laughing at this.

Mikeavelli
2012-02-05, 01:54 PM
OOC relationships aren't in the core ruleset. Ask her to set a seduction DC, then have him roll for it. Problem solved.

I think this is obviously the best solution, and has the greatest chance of a good outcome for all involved.

DaMullet
2012-02-05, 09:51 PM
OOC relationships aren't in the core ruleset. Ask her to set a seduction DC, then have him roll for it. Problem solved.

Make sure you note that he can't retry until he improves his charisma score.

ClothedInVelvet
2012-02-06, 02:39 AM
OOC relationships aren't in the core ruleset. Ask her to set a seduction DC, then have him roll for it. Problem solved.

Make sure he knows he can't take 20 by just taking forever to do it.

Tyndmyr
2012-02-06, 09:37 AM
Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but perhaps you should tell him that she's the one he should be talking to, not you. I mean, I know that DM is a powerful position, but anything not in the game is kinda out of your control.

This. It unfortunately has the possibility to have repercussions on the game(I've had a game shatter from similar causes), but it's really on them to make relationship decisions, not you.

Tell him to ask her out if he wants to, but to try to keep it away from the game as much as possible. This might not actually work, but meh. Invest in popcorn, watch the ensuing drama.

Sipex
2012-02-06, 10:18 AM
I can't really offer any more relationship advice than what is already outlined here. You don't know how this will turn out and you can't stop it.

However, I will second the advise echoed throughout here, don't involve the game.

You just have to hope that they can both keep the game out of it regardless of what happens. You don't want their characters suddenly being uncooperative with each other because she rejected him or have to decide if their characters can date IC (gods help you if they ask, that's always awkward with new relationships).

Stardrake
2012-02-07, 02:11 AM
Make sure you note that he can't retry until he improves his charisma score.Or at least puts more ranks into the skill he uses to make the roll (Diplomacy, Bluff, Craft:Floral Arrangements) or tries a different skill.

More seriously... the good advice has already been given. Just what the "It's complicated" relationship with the roommate is might have a bearing (SO in all but name is different to FWB which is different to the two circling one another which again is different to one of them pursuing the other which is oblivious or disinterested) but his options are basically let her know (and direct is the best option) or to move on. Whether he should tell her or move on really depends on just how things are complicated.

Irreverent Fool
2012-02-07, 03:46 AM
I handled it by saying,

"Dude, leave my girlfriend alone."

Might not work in your situation though, so I don't know. :smallbiggrin:

Jay R
2012-02-07, 12:55 PM
I handled it by saying,

"Dude, leave my girlfriend alone."

Might not work in your situation though, so I don't know. :smallbiggrin:

Of course. As soon as she stops having an "It's complicated" and starts having a boyfriend, this kind of thing can be handled quickly.

What's been happening here is what "complicated" means.

kyoryu
2012-02-07, 02:34 PM
Of course. As soon as she stops having an "It's complicated" and starts having a boyfriend, this kind of thing can be handled quickly.

What's been happening here is what "complicated" means.

And the way to handle that (for the guy interested) in a normal scenario is to assume "it's complicated" means that there *is* an attachment, and to stay the heck out of it unless she makes some kind of move, or until the scenario is clarified.

Or, at worst, for the interested guy to say "hey, what's going on with you and the other dude?" Or maybe even ask him. That's actually not a terrible idea, as it reduces drama because you can't be accused of trying to go behind his back.

Really, forget the game for a minute. What would you do if it was three other friends in this scenario that you weren't playing D&D with?

Ivellius
2012-02-07, 05:22 PM
OOC relationships aren't covered in the DMG because girls don't play D&D. I mean, really. Of course this has never happened before.

Jay R
2012-02-07, 06:14 PM
And the way to handle that (for the guy interested) in a normal scenario is to assume "it's complicated" means that there *is* an attachment, ...

Unfortunately, "it's complicated" does not mean "it's straightforward and simple."

kyoryu
2012-02-07, 06:20 PM
Unfortunately, "it's complicated" does not mean "it's straightforward and simple."

"It's complicated" means there is *some* sort of relationship.

The appropriate thing to do with a *friend* is to not get involved. If a friend of mine had an "it's complicated" relationship with a girl, I would simply *not* get involved.

The "it's complicated" relationship between the two may in fact be very complicated. I don't doubt that. The suggested actions of the interested party, in my mind, are - act as if it were a full-fledged relationship.

Knaight
2012-02-08, 01:49 AM
OOC relationships aren't covered in the DMG because girls don't play D&D. I mean, really. Of course this has never happened before.

This joke got old a long time ago.

ClothedInVelvet
2012-02-08, 02:54 AM
"It's complicated" means there is *some* sort of relationship.

The appropriate thing to do with a *friend* is to not get involved. If a friend of mine had an "it's complicated" relationship with a girl, I would simply *not* get involved.

The "it's complicated" relationship between the two may in fact be very complicated. I don't doubt that. The suggested actions of the interested party, in my mind, are - act as if it were a full-fledged relationship.

Eh, all's fair in love and war. If I can steal her away, then she obviously didn't like him a whole lot in the first place. So I might get involved.

Killer Angel
2012-02-08, 03:02 AM
Clearly, the DM's duty is to tell the group to ask for advice in the Relationship Woes and Advice tread. Though it cannot be considered RAW. :smalltongue:

kyoryu
2012-02-08, 04:00 PM
Eh, all's fair in love and war. If I can steal her away, then she obviously didn't like him a whole lot in the first place. So I might get involved.

And the result of that is, at best, ending any friendship between you and the other guy. At best.

At worst, you lose the friendship with the girl as well.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-08, 05:16 PM
Clearly, the DM's duty is to tell the group to ask for advice in the Relationship Woes and Advice tread. Though it cannot be considered RAW. :smalltongue:

No, it's RWA instead.:smallcool:

Ulysses WkAmil
2012-02-08, 06:57 PM
Well it all starts with trapping the two alone in a room together, have them slay all the monsters, and still being trapped, force them to profess their love for one another so the Heart sigil on the door will open! Then you play D&D. :smallbiggrin: