PDA

View Full Version : Dealing with a certain player



Laura Eternata
2012-02-05, 03:25 PM
Hello, Playgrounders. As evidenced by the title, my group has run into a little problem, and I'm open to any advice at this point. My apologies if this is a bit long winded.

My current group started playing D&D about a year ago. It was comprised of four people, myself included. I was the only one familiar with the game, having played it my brother a few times, so I taught the rest of them how it went. Unfortunately, we decided to play it for the first time on a whim, and I had no game prepared, so I tried improvising. It didn't go so well, and what little plot I had was quickly derailed by one of the players (we'll call him Frank). The rest of us didn't have a very good time; I was a very inexperienced DM at the time, so in my fear of railroading the party, I let Frank get away with a lot more than I should have, and when other two players (George and Sara) approached him about it, he decide that roleplaying wasn't really his thing after all, and left.

The three of us played for a while before finally deciding that we needed more people. We invited two friends of ours, who we'll call Joan and Lilly. Joan's a longtime friend of Sara's and mine, and Lilly was at least a friendly acquaintance. Lilly and George had also just become romantically involved at this point. That game went horribly, with Joan staying silent almost all night and Lilly showing no interest in the rules at all. So we booted them, too.

Recently, we've gotten to talking about our lack of players again, and we decided to invite Joan and Frank back. Sara claims to have enjoyed the game she took part in, despite her silence, and Frank (who's just become romantically involved with her) decided to give it another shot. Sara was strongly against it, as she doesn't like Frank very much, but George and I overruled her. (Please note that if she had her way, it would be just her and George playing. The two of us haven't been on the best of terms lately.)

The game was last night. George and I thought it went very well; Joan was still quiet, but still claims to enjoy it, and Frank was clearly having a blast even while cooperating with the DM. I thought that would be the end of the arguing, but after George and Joan left, Sara told George and me that she hated the entire thing and refuses to let Frank come back.

Right now, George and I are trying to talk her into having us run two separate games, one with Frank and Joan and one without, but she doesn't seem to be giving way. My question is... what the hell should I do?

Again, sorry for the length. I just really needed to get this off my chest.

Headless Baron
2012-02-05, 04:32 PM
I suppose it depends on how much say Sara has in the decision making process, since she's the only one not having fun. If she's the host, then I'd recommend finding another place to run the game, and let her know that she's welcome to join you if she feels inclined to.
In the end the only thing you can do is get a group of people together who are all interested in playing /this/ game with /these/ people. And as to those who don't, let them go do their own thing while you're gaming. You don't have to game with all of your friends in any given campaign.

Laura Eternata
2012-02-05, 05:55 PM
(Damn 503 errors… I had a veritable essay written out. Here’s the slimmed down version :)

Thing is, Sara isn't the most... reasonable person I know, and she might consider even the suggestion of the rest of us playing without her a betrayal. Besides, she and Joan are close friends, and I think Joan wouldn't be comfortable being the indirect cause of Sara getting kicked out.

Here's how things stand, for clarification:
-Sara really doesn't like Frank. A quote from her, lifted from a facebook post: "He just makes me crazy. Just everything about him sends me over the edge. I'm not crazy about him generally, as I believe we've covered already. D&D is a nice break from him. I don't wanna do it again."
-Sara and Joan are close friends.
-George is everyone's friend, but he admits that Sara has been getting worse lately.
-Joan and Frank are romantically involved, so they're a box set.
-Sara doesn't like me very much, nor do I care for her.

As to how much say Sara has... she THINKS she has a great deal. She feels that her seniority should allow her to veto Frank from playing, and a straight out, "It doesn't work that way" is likely to send her over the edge.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-02-05, 07:17 PM
Oh boy, not sure what to make of this, but this is what I'd do. First of all don't worry about the quiet one, if she says she's having fun take her word for it for now, some people take a while to come out and actually roleplay. As for this Sara... if Frank isn't causing trouble for anyone else and everyone except her enjoys playing with him tell her she really just needs to accept his presence there. She doesn't have to like it, just tolerate it and not cause a fuss (if you have to point out that you're currently showing her the same courtesy, you don't like it but you're not causing drama over having her there.). And if it really causes her that much distress it is her responsibility to get herself out of that situation unless she can coherently and logically explain why Frank shouldn't be allowed to play. (And "I don't like him." is not a good enough reason.)

Really it is on her to deal with it and if she doesn't like the current group she is more than welcome to start her own group where she can invite anyone she likes.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-02-05, 07:53 PM
Gather all the players except Sara. Talk to them about it, and decide as a group whether to kick her out or not. If they vote no, continue for another few sessions, and if it doesn't get any better, or gets worse, meet with them again. If they vote yes, you have everyone on your side, except possibly Joan. If Joan doesn't want to kick in fear of ending the friendship, the problem is too deep and you should continue playing with Sara unless it gets worse.

RoboHobo
2012-02-05, 08:23 PM
Sounds like Sara is trying to up the stakes, playing brinkmanship to get her way. You need to downplay it and react calmly and without hostility.

"Hi Sara, it's me Laura. The last game with everyone worked well, they seemed to have fun. I'd like to keep going with the whole group and see how it works out. I'd love for you to keep playing as well, let me know how you feel about it. We can just take it a game at a time and see how it goes."

If she "goes over the edge" at that, then it wasn't you pushing her, she just jumped. She might need a tactful reminder that the world doesn't revolve around her. Just don't react to any craziness that ensues, be the bigger person, and try to downplay the drama.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-02-05, 08:33 PM
I think Jade has a reasonable answer. Another option could be to delicately point out to Sara that she is the only one with a problem with Frank and Frank has no problem with her. In fact the only player-group problem seems to be that Sara dislikes Frank. Considering that, Sara seems to have a choice, she can tolerate Frank and try to enjoy herself with him around, or she can leave. Starting a secondary game without him isn't a bad option and if someone else feels comfortable DMing it could even be a nice break for you from DMing.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-02-05, 08:41 PM
I think Jade has a reasonable answer. Another option could be to delicately point out to Sara that she is the only one with a problem with Frank and Frank has no problem with her. In fact the only player-group problem seems to be that Sara dislikes Frank. Considering that, Sara seems to have a choice, she can tolerate Frank and try to enjoy herself with him around, or she can leave. Starting a secondary game without him isn't a bad option and if someone else feels comfortable DMing it could even be a nice break for you from DMing.

Laura said Sara doesn't really like her either, and that if Sara had her way, it would be just her and George. So I don't know how well that would work.

tensai_oni
2012-02-05, 09:01 PM
Let me start by saying that half the names of people involved remind me of a game I played. It is a surreal experience.

It is obvious Sara is the problem player. If she doesn't want to play with Frank, someone that no one else has issues with, then she doesn't have to - she is free to leave. And if there is a risk she will flip out, explode or otherwise act unreasonably, then you have even less of a reason to keep her in the group.

I think it's a good time to mention the Social Fallacies of Geekdom (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html). Because I think they apply here.

Belril Duskwalk
2012-02-05, 11:09 PM
Laura said Sara doesn't really like her either, and that if Sara had her way, it would be just her and George. So I don't know how well that would work.

Somehow I skimmed over that part. New plan: Either use Jade's plan, or just skip the discussion and go straight to the 'Good bye Sara' that seems more or less inevitable.

Dr. Yes
2012-02-05, 11:12 PM
Honestly, it seems like the situation is going to work itself out without you having to do anything. If Frank and Joan keep coming, Sara will either ragequit or step back in line. You win either way.

Laura Eternata
2012-02-05, 11:16 PM
I think it's a good time to mention the Social Fallacies of Geekdom (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html). Because I think they apply here.

:smalleek: It is downright scary how accurate those are.

I really do wish we could just kick Sara out. The person she's turned into over the past six months or so is a far cry from the girl I met in grade school, but the rest of our friends (George and Joan, at least) are loath to give up on repairing the friendship, and are firmly against that particular course of action. (We talked about it not 20 minutes ago, as per Jade's recommendation. At least we all acknowledge that there's a problem now and can try to work together to fix this mess.)

Sara won't willingly leave. She's going to (and has been for the past 24 hours) fighting with everything she's got to get Frank banned. Belril's idea of a second game entirely might work, though; I doubt even Sara would begrudge us playing without her sometimes as long as we still have our biweekly games, just the three of us. I'll suggest that tomorrow after class.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-02-05, 11:17 PM
Honestly, it seems like the situation is going to work itself out without you having to do anything. If Frank and Joan keep coming, Sara will either ragequit or step back in line. You win either way.

I think that Sara will eventually issue an ultimatum. Either she goes or Frank goes. If she does, you will have the perfect opportunity.

Grelna the Blue
2012-02-06, 10:27 AM
I don't have much to add, except to ask if you have asked whether there is anything beyond clashing personalities at work here. If they don't get along IRL, there is no requirement that they have to roleplay their PCs as good friends. A few in character snippy remarks per session could conceivably take the edge off the tension. They might even be fun, if kept in character. However, if Frank and Sara have a history of serious clashes outside the game and/or if Sara feels she has legitimate reason to feel emnity (not just annoyance) toward him, then it's going to have to be one or the other of them.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-02-06, 10:35 AM
Sounds like there might be a whole lot more going on with Sara and in her life than her just not liking Frank. I'm not sure how or if it would help the game, but it is possible she's using it as an outlet for whatever else is going on in her life right now. Try to find out whats up with her and what's going on...

big teej
2012-02-06, 11:36 AM
(Damn 503 errors… I had a veritable essay written out. Here’s the slimmed down version :)

Thing is, Sara isn't the most... reasonable person I know, and she might consider even the suggestion of the rest of us playing without her a betrayal. Besides, she and Joan are close friends, and I think Joan wouldn't be comfortable being the indirect cause of Sara getting kicked out.

Here's how things stand, for clarification:
-Sara really doesn't like Frank. A quote from her, lifted from a facebook post: "He just makes me crazy. Just everything about him sends me over the edge. I'm not crazy about him generally, as I believe we've covered already. D&D is a nice break from him. I don't wanna do it again."
-Sara and Joan are close friends.
-George is everyone's friend, but he admits that Sara has been getting worse lately.
-Joan and Frank are romantically involved, so they're a box set.
-Sara doesn't like me very much, nor do I care for her.

As to how much say Sara has... she THINKS she has a great deal. She feels that her seniority should allow her to veto Frank from playing, and a straight out, "It doesn't work that way" is likely to send her over the edge.

this looks fairly clear cut to me, but I could be mis-interpreting this (I'm distracted, in class)

but it sounds like Sara is the only problem.



if nothing else, look at it this way "who is causing the most trouble"

lose said individual

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-06, 11:48 AM
Try the "Thank you for being so kind" argument.

As sarcasticaly show the person how difficult they are being. They might get angry at that at first, but they will except it later.

Jornophelanthas
2012-02-06, 01:27 PM
Sara won't willingly leave. She's going to (and has been for the past 24 hours) fighting with everything she's got to get Frank banned. Belril's idea of a second game entirely might work, though; I doubt even Sara would begrudge us playing without her sometimes as long as we still have our biweekly games, just the three of us. I'll suggest that tomorrow after class.

If you propose the second game, perhaps the following arguments could help you sell the idea to Sara:

1. You, George and Joan all have no problem at all with Frank's presence, and Frank has no problem with Sara's presence. Banning Frank on a single person's veto would be unfair to Frank, regardless of any friendships.

2. The second game is a way to give everyone what they want: Frank gets to play, and Sara gets to play without Frank. If not playing with Frank is really important to Sara, she should also be willing to sacrifice some (but not all) of her game time for it. Tell her that you and George would be happy to accommodate a biweekly game with just the three of you.

3. If Sara seems actively spiteful towards Frank, point out that Frank gets to play only half the time under the two-game solution. Perhaps the argument that Frank doesn't get everything he wants (i.e. to play every week) will mollify her. You know Sara well enough to judge whether this argument will work on her.

4. Sara is always welcome to join the game that also includes Frank, if she wants to. Frank will never be allowed to join the second non-Frank game, unless all players (including Sara) grant permission for that. (Use this argument to point out that Sara gets more out of the deal than Frank does, if she demands that her seniority should count for something.)

Some of these arguments are rather petty, but if Sara is a petty person, they might work. (She sounds that way to me from the description, but I am not qualified to make any real judgment about her anyway.)

---edited to add:
Finally, I second the opinion that something more is going on with Sara, as evidenced by the Facebook quote. It sounds like she is under significant stress and is likely using the roleplaying game as an outlet for that stress.
It could well be that her unwinding is affecting the enjoyment of the others, but until that happens, it should not be a big deal for you, the DM.

One thing you could do, though, is to ask Joan or George (or another closer friend of Sara's) if everything is alright with Sara, since you noticed a significant change in her behaviour lately. That way, if there really is a stress factor in Sara's life, you'll know about it and be able to treat her accordingly during the game.

kyoryu
2012-02-06, 03:39 PM
Meh, I'd approach things from a slightly different angle.

Focus on behavior. The fact that Sara doesn't "like" Frank is irrelevant. Ask her what behaviors of his she cannot tolerate.

Similarly, explain what behaviors of hers will, and will not be tolerated.

She is free to come to the game, or not. If she cannot abide by the "rules," she will be asked to leave. Similarly, if Frank cannot abide by the "rules," he will be asked to leave (based on your descriptions, the latter is unlikely, but it helps to reinforce the idea that behavior is being targetted, not individuals).

Stand your ground, and stand firm. "We are inviting Frank. The group, as a whole, wants him here. You do not have a veto. Whatever problems exist between the two of you, please do not bring them to the game. We will be telling him the same thing." Not open for debate or discussion. Not attacking or insulting Sara, either.

Again, focus on *behavior* rather than *opinions* of the people involved. If Sara continues to be a problem, make sure you let her know that *Sara* is more than welcome to the game - however, certain *behaviors* are not.

tahu88810
2012-02-06, 05:06 PM
Threads like this make me wonder, sometimes, why there has yet to be a tabletop RPG called "Armchair Psychology d20" or "OGL Guidance Counselor" or something similar :smalltongue:

RandomNPC
2012-02-06, 05:27 PM
The way I see it, there's one answer. I'm odd like that though.

Sara is asking you to pick between friends. What kind of friend asks you to do that? Bye Sara.

After trying to work things out and getting nowhere I'd pull it on her outa the blue with no takebacks on the grounds that you tried to work things out first.

Now if your friends are going to give you a big OMGWTFBBQ! over it, you may have to make a judgement call on that.

You've also mentioned a few relationships, maybe Sara is uncomfortable in front of Frank but wants to start something with you or George?

Laura Eternata
2012-02-06, 05:40 PM
Guys... I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out, I really do, but Joan and George are too close to her to let a this dispute get in the way of their friendship with her (which it would. Petty, as Jorn put it, is a perfect way to describe Sara as of late, and her case of GSF 2 would cause her to look at it as a stab in the back.)


Sounds like there might be a whole lot more going on with Sara and in her life than her just not liking Frank. I'm not sure how or if it would help the game, but it is possible she's using it as an outlet for whatever else is going on in her life right now. Try to find out whats up with her and what's going on...

That not a bad idea. I haven't seen much of her this year outside of D&D sessions for a few months, so I honestly haven't a clue what's going on in her own life. If I can, I'll talk to Joan one on one when I see her tomorrow about it. If anyone knows about what's going on with Sara, she will.

I talked to Sara today (though I didn't ask her about her personal life, as the idea hadn't occurred to me.) She was just as adamant about her position as she was yesterday, but was at least willing to hear me out about running two separate games. She's not happy - I hardly expected her to be - but, in her words, she "can't do **** to stop us". I have a feeling the next few sessions won't be the most pleasant experiences of our lives, but at least she's willing to play along for now. And if she does try to stop us from doing the separate sessions at any point, I doubt even George and Joan will be willing to put up with her any more.

EDIT: Swordsaged a couple times.


Sara is asking you to pick between friends. What kind of friend asks you to do that? Bye Sara.

After trying to work things out and getting nowhere I'd pull it on her outa the blue with no takebacks on the grounds that you tried to work things out first.

Now if your friends are going to give you a big OMGWTFBBQ! over it, you may have to make a judgement call on that.

You've also mentioned a few relationships, maybe Sara is uncomfortable in front of Frank but wants to start something with you or George?

I sort of agree with you, but as you said, George and Joan don't. They're more sentimental than I am, and want to do all within their power to keep all friendships intact through this affair. As for relationships, George is still with Lilly, and as far as I know Sara's straight, so I'm pretty sure she's not interested in me.


Threads like this make me wonder, sometimes, why there has yet to be a tabletop RPG called "Armchair Psychology d20" or "OGL Guidance Counselor" or something similar

I know, this is the second one this week... Weren't things were supposed to get simpler after high school? :smallannoyed:

kyoryu
2012-02-06, 07:12 PM
Guys... I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out, I really do, but Joan and George are too close to her to let a this dispute get in the way of their friendship with her (which it would. Petty, as Jorn put it, is a perfect way to describe Sara as of late, and her case of GSF 2 would cause her to look at it as a stab in the back.)


Then maybe you need to sit down with Joan and George and ask them what they want. Let it be a group decision.

graymagiker
2012-02-06, 09:28 PM
Then maybe you need to sit down with Joan and George and ask them what they want. Let it be a group decision.


This is the only clear path forward. I recommend incorporating this advice with kyoryu's other advice:



Stand your ground, and stand firm. "We are inviting Frank. The group, as a whole, wants him here. You do not have a veto. Whatever problems exist between the two of you, please do not bring them to the game. We will be telling him the same thing."





focus on *behavior* rather than *opinions* of the people involved.


I would also make clear to Joan and George that having this conversation with Sara about specific behaviors in no way expresses that Sara is not your friend, or not their friend. In fact, it is because Sara is, and will remain, your friend that you must have this conversation. It goes without saying that this should be made clear to Sara as well, in as tactful a way as possible.



I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out


I am afraid it is that simple, and that hard. It needs to be made clear that one person does not get veto power in the group, except over themselves.

It may be that this ends the game, if Joan and George will not show up if Sara quits because you won't ban Frank. IMO this is preferable to allowing one player to unilaterally banning another player because: I just don't like anything about him. If an amiable solution cannot be worked out eg: Sara won't play with Frank, Joan won't play without Frank, Joan won't play without Sara, ect; you're only solution may be to cancel the game. It sucks, but as you say it might be preferable to ending friendships.

Also note that at this point, there may be nothing you to can do to keep all your friendships intact. If you ban Frank he might be pissed, or if you split the game then he might rightly be pissed as well because he didn't do anything and has no problem with Sara. If you don't ban frank, it sounds like Sara will be upset regardless. This sucks, but if you realize that you have no real control on how people may react it will get easier.

1
Here is what I consider a reasonable approach:


Have everyone agree to come to the next gaming session, and promise they will get a chance to air their issues. This avoids the possibility of being accused of talking behind peoples backs, and allows everyone input. It also shows, rather than stating, that everyone is on equal footing. Be clear that the GM does not get extra authority beyond a member of the group in this discussion.
Have a discussion with the goal of setting acceptable, and unacceptable, behavior while at game. The goal is to get a group, as large as possible, to agree to a common ground to come together and have a game. Like kyoryu said, be clear that only behaviors maybe discussed as acceptable or unacceptable. Specify if one incident will be enough to get someone banned, or if it takes three strikes or some other number of infractions. This could be different for different rules.
Based on this discussion: either have a short gaming session within the established ground rules; or everyone agrees to disagree about a game and leaves. Make it clear that anyone violating the ground rules will be kicked out. Also make it clear that this doesn't make them not a friend. People can choose to believe or not believe that last statement, but make it as clear and sincere as possible; the rest is their choice.
Agree to have all other game sessions under the agreed to rules. Be sure to re-evaluate the rules periodically. Make it clear that only a consensus can change them.
Hope for the best.


I think this may be your best shot, to talk to the group as a whole and try and work it out. This is likely to upset Sara, because she may object to you telling Frank in front of everyone that she wants to ban him. This is also likely to upset Frank, as he might be upset that someone objects to his mere presence at game. It may also upset Joan and George because they feel like they are being forced to choose friends.

For Sara: She said what she said. She has to be responsible for that. She may not like it. She may wish to forget it and allow Frank to come to game. She may wish to apologize. All are fine. The fact is she could have no objection to you breaking her confidence, because you would have to do that to ban Frank anyway.

For Frank: Assure him that as long as he has fun, and can follow rules of specific behavior that all agree on, he is welcome in your game. Not much else, but just be a good friend regardless of what happens regarding game.

For all others: Let them know that this is a group of friends, and that by coming to a consensus as equals everyone is respected. Again, vow to remain friends no mater what happens; possibly hanging out in smaller groups that all get along.
1

Sorry for the long-winded armchair psychology. Feel free to ignore it if you think it is bogus; it's ok I am not a real psychologist and I won't take it personally.

TriForce
2012-02-07, 01:48 PM
Guys... I wish it was a simple as telling her to deal with it or get out, I really do, but Joan and George are too close to her to let a this dispute get in the way of their friendship with her (which it would. Petty, as Jorn put it, is a perfect way to describe Sara as of late, and her case of GSF 2 would cause her to look at it as a stab in the back.)


i am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here.

it really is as simple as telling her : "frank has done nothing wrong, and thus there is no reason not to invite him"

becouse, lets be honest here. what IS she going to do about it?

not come anymore? problem solved, and no friendships ruined since it was her own decision.

be disruptive in the game? fine, it will be annoying, but she will just be digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself until the rest tells her to get out. even the most sympatethic people have a point at wich they have enough, and i suspect it wont take more then a session or 3 before the problem solves itself

sulk but still keep playing? fine, problem solved too, she might not like it, but if it doesnt hinder the rest, thats not your problem.

kyoryu
2012-02-07, 02:16 PM
i am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here.

it really is as simple as telling her : "frank has done nothing wrong, and thus there is no reason not to invite him"

becouse, lets be honest here. what IS she going to do about it?

not come anymore? problem solved, and no friendships ruined since it was her own decision.

be disruptive in the game? fine, it will be annoying, but she will just be digging a deeper and deeper hole for herself until the rest tells her to get out. even the most sympatethic people have a point at wich they have enough, and i suspect it wont take more then a session or 3 before the problem solves itself

sulk but still keep playing? fine, problem solved too, she might not like it, but if it doesnt hinder the rest, thats not your problem.

To add on to this, let me just say one thing:

Sara is a bully. I realize that this probably doesn't jibe with your opinion of her. But - she is using threates to get her way, trying to force people into behavior patterns that they don't want to engage in for fear of retaliation.

That's what bullies do. It just so happens that her methods of doing this are social rather than physical.

Her not wanting Frank at the game she's playing at? Understandable, to an extent. Saying "if he plays, I won't" is reasonable, and her choice. However, threatening retaliation if you, Frank, and others play without her? Flat-out bullying, controlling behavior.

Note the differences here.

"Frank can't come back." : Not her choice. Asserting control over your entire group, which isn't cool.
"If Frank plays, I won't come back." : Her choice, and your choice on how to respond. She does get her choice in this matter. While you may think it's silly, she's simply outlining what she will do, and what her reaction will be, without making threats.
"If you and Frank and others play together at some other time, I'm going to make your lives miserable." : WTF?

Another thing to do might be to ask WHY she doesn't want Frank at the game. There may be some reason. If it's just "I don't like him," again, try to steer towards understanding what of Frank's BEHAVIORS she doesn't like. If it's "he always pushes his way into the center of the spotlight, and I feel like I'm not playing any more," then there's ways to deal with that. There's a root of this conflict somewhere, and understanding it may help you to deal with it.


I would also make clear to Joan and George that having this conversation with Sara about specific behaviors in no way expresses that Sara is not your friend, or not their friend. In fact, it is because Sara is, and will remain, your friend that you must have this conversation.

Should have been more clear on this. This is the entire point of separating the behaviors from the person - to make it clear that any statement of unacceptable behavior is not a rejection of the person, both to them and to any of their friends.

Other things to do with the "behavior" speech:
1) Make sure that they have a way to explain what behaviors they don't like in others (which meshes nicely with "what's her problem with Frank", above).
2) Make sure that with the behavior, you explain you're looking for an improvement, not 100%, and so long as the improvement is there, that's all anyone can ask. Everyone slips up, you're not looking for perfection. You are looking for an effort.
3) Offer to help her improve the behavior. Make it a team thing.

Laura Eternata
2012-02-07, 06:15 PM
i am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here.

it really is as simple as telling her : "frank has done nothing wrong, and thus there is no reason not to invite him"

becouse, lets be honest here. what IS she going to do about it?


George and I tried saying that on Sunday. She... wasn't receptive. That's when she said that her seniority should allow her to ban whoever she likes. George wanted to avoid conflict as much as possible, so he pretty much backed off at that point.


Sara is a bully. I realize that this probably doesn't jibe with your opinion of her. But - she is using threates to get her way, trying to force people into behavior patterns that they don't want to engage in for fear of retaliation.

Yeah, I can agree with that. Even Joan - who I just showed this thread, for better or for worse - agrees. But she's still not really willing to do anything that could compromise her friendships with both Sara and Frank.

Speaking of my conversation with Joan, she... told me a few things. Some of them she made me promise not to share, but this much I'm allowed to say: Sara is currently seeing a therapist at least twice a week, and is exhibiting signs of chronic depression (as defined here. (http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/chronic-depression-dysthymia)) She probably is using roleplaying as an outlet for this, and likely considers Frank's induction - someone who she didn't like that much to begin with - to be a threat to the security she feels while playing. This is further supported by another Facebook post: among other things, it said "if the rest of our sessions are gonna be like that I'm not gonna get anything out of them." (This is purely conjecture based on a quarter of a semester of Psych 101 and what Joan told me. I have no idea if that's an accurate diagnosis.)


I would also make clear to Joan and George that having this conversation with Sara about specific behaviors in no way expresses that Sara is not your friend, or not their friend. In fact, it is because Sara is, and will remain, your friend that you must have this conversation.

This would be fantastic if they would agree to it. Joan's reluctant, but this thread and our research have opened her eyes to the possible gravity of the situation, and she realizes that letting Sara get her way won't necessarily help her any.


Other things to do with the "behavior" speech:
1) Make sure that they have a way to explain what behaviors they don't like in others (which meshes nicely with "what's her problem with Frank", above).
2) Make sure that with the behavior, you explain you're looking for an improvement, not 100%, and so long as the improvement is there, that's all anyone can ask. Everyone slips up, you're not looking for perfection. You are looking for an effort.
3) Offer to help her improve the behavior. Make it a team thing.

1) We did ask her what her problem is with Frank (I thought I said that, but looking back it seems I forgot to put that into my second second post.) She said she doesn't even know; he just makes her "head explode".
2) Good idea.
3) That one I'm not so sure about. As I said, she isn't really a close friend of Frank and mine anymore, so I honestly doubt she'd be willing to accept help. She's always been the type to bottle things up, too, so I don't even know if she'd be open to Joan and George's help.

kyoryu
2012-02-07, 06:18 PM
3) That one I'm not so sure about. As I said, she isn't really a close friend of Frank and mine anymore, so I honestly doubt she'd be willing to accept help. She's always been the type to bottle things up, too, so I don't even know if she'd be open to Joan and George's help.

It can be as minor as "if we see you starting to slip towards the undesirable behavior, we'll give you a small signal, before it gets out of control." The real point is to position yourself as an ally rather than an opponent.

TriForce
2012-02-07, 10:37 PM
George and I tried saying that on Sunday. She... wasn't receptive. That's when she said that her seniority should allow her to ban whoever she likes. George wanted to avoid conflict as much as possible, so he pretty much backed off at that point.


again, thats no problem. just keep inviting frank and ignore her protests. the issue WILL solve itself



Yeah, I can agree with that. Even Joan - who I just showed this thread, for better or for worse - agrees. But she's still not really willing to do anything that could compromise her friendships with both Sara and Frank.

Speaking of my conversation with Joan, she... told me a few things. Some of them she made me promise not to share, but this much I'm allowed to say: Sara is currently seeing a therapist at least twice a week, and is exhibiting signs of chronic depression (as defined here. (http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/chronic-depression-dysthymia)) She probably is using roleplaying as an outlet for this, and likely considers Frank's induction - someone who she didn't like that much to begin with - to be a threat to the security she feels while playing. This is further supported by another Facebook post: among other things, it said "if the rest of our sessions are gonna be like that I'm not gonna get anything out of them." (This is purely conjecture based on a quarter of a semester of Psych 101 and what Joan told me. I have no idea if that's an accurate diagnosis.)



while your intentions are good, you must realize you are not her therapist, and have no responcibility towards her, no matter how bad it is with her, and joan isnt either. dont put up with her bullying simply becouse she uses it as a outlet. this might sound harsh, but whatever reason she needs therapy for isnt your problem and you shouldnt chance the way you act towards her becouse of it. if you cant tolerate something from a "normal" person, dont tolerate it from her either (note: im not saying she is mentally ill, im just using the word "normal" to accentuate the difference in situation)

adjusting yourself and others becouse of her problems wont help her. in the worste case it will even harm her becouse it will show her that with that kind of behaviour, she will get what she wants. i still think that not listening to her "demands" will be the best option for everyone, including her

Beowulf DW
2012-02-08, 12:11 AM
adjusting yourself and others becouse of her problems wont help her. in the worste case it will even harm her becouse it will show her that with that kind of behaviour, she will get what she wants. i still think that not listening to her "demands" will be the best option for everyone, including her

I've almost recovered from a bout with depression myself, and I agree that the faster someone realizes that being that way doesn't do any good at all, the faster that someone recovers.

Make sure you're not being mean about it, though. Take a "tough love" stance on it.

Anxe
2012-02-08, 12:43 AM
We're getting close to the "medical advice taboo" now, but I think we're still safe.

I'd urge you to not give Sara any special treatment based on her medical status. From my experience, depressed people do not change as long as they consider depression to be part of personality. Giving her special treatment is only going to reinforce that she can get more of such treatment by playing the, "I'm depressed card." From you description, she has not done so yet, but she may as events unfold. When she does I think you should ignore it. I'd go with the, "Just because you're depressed doesn't give you the right to be a bitch," but I always favor passive-agressive statements.

Of course the situation is obviously more complicated and you have the loyalty to your friend's privacy to consider.

If I were in your position I'd stop playing with Sara. She apparently hates half the members of the group and can't even give reasons why (At least publically. She may be keeping the reasons private. Example: Frank reminds her of someone who abused her and "caused" her depression). The solution would be for her to hang out with the people she wants to, which would be Joan and George. She can do that just fine without you or Frank being involved.

kyoryu
2012-02-08, 03:59 PM
adjusting yourself and others becouse of her problems wont help her. in the worste case it will even harm her becouse it will show her that with that kind of behaviour, she will get what she wants. i still think that not listening to her "demands" will be the best option for everyone, including her

I believe the term you're looking for is "enabling."

Laura Eternata
2012-02-08, 08:06 PM
I'd urge you to not give Sara any special treatment based on her medical status. From my experience, depressed people do not change as long as they consider depression to be part of personality. Giving her special treatment is only going to reinforce that she can get more of such treatment by playing the, "I'm depressed card." From you description, she has not done so yet, but she may as events unfold. When she does I think you should ignore it. I'd go with the, "Just because you're depressed doesn't give you the right to be a bitch," but I always favor passive-agressive statements.

Of course the situation is obviously more complicated and you have the loyalty to your friend's privacy to consider.

If I were in your position I'd stop playing with Sara. She apparently hates half the members of the group and can't even give reasons why (At least publically. She may be keeping the reasons private. Example: Frank reminds her of someone who abused her and "caused" her depression). The solution would be for her to hang out with the people she wants to, which would be Joan and George. She can do that just fine without you or Frank being involved.

I hadn't considered that possibility. You're right; if she doesn't like me or Frank, there's no reason for her to hang out with us. Maybe once we start the two separate groups thing, I'll say that I can't handle the workload of both of them, and only have time to work with one group. Sara's tried her hand at GMing, she knows how much work it can be (and she hasn't done it since.) And no one would be surprised that I choose the group with Frank and Joan over the one with Sara.

I've had very bad luck with passive-aggressiveness in the past, so if I have to say something, I might try to appeal to her sense of morality and straight out tell her that her own issues, as bad as they may be, don't give her a right to abuse others. If she ends up responding poorly, I think I'll be justified in breaking off contact from her for a while.


while your intentions are good, you must realize you are not her therapist, and have no responcibility towards her, no matter how bad it is with her, and joan isnt either. dont put up with her bullying simply becouse she uses it as a outlet. this might sound harsh, but whatever reason she needs therapy for isnt your problem and you shouldnt chance the way you act towards her becouse of it. if you cant tolerate something from a "normal" person, dont tolerate it from her either (note: im not saying she is mentally ill, im just using the word "normal" to accentuate the difference in situation)

adjusting yourself and others becouse of her problems wont help her. in the worste case it will even harm her becouse it will show her that with that kind of behaviour, she will get what she wants. i still think that not listening to her "demands" will be the best option for everyone, including her

That's also a very good point. That goes hand in hand with not letting her push us around; if we don't give way, maybe she'll realize that she is not, in fact, the Queen Bitch of the Universe that she thinks she is.

In that case, do you think we would be better off not doing the two separate groups, even for the few weeks it'll take to make my excuse to end it seem more believable? I'm starting to think that any bending at all is a bad idea. Either she deals with Frank, or she leaves. That seems so cruel, though...


We're getting close to the "medical advice taboo" now, but I think we're still safe.

I think we're okay. I'm looking for, and have received, guidance on what I personally should do to ensure a fun gaming environment, not ideas on how to help Sara overcome her depression. As TriForce said, that's really not Joan or my job; it's Sara'a therapist's.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-02-08, 08:14 PM
Honestly I'd opt out of the two-group thing, especially if you're just going to use it to make up an excuse to not play with her. It would be equal to lying, and while you might not care anymore the people she are friends with might not be comfortable with it, unless you plan on lying about it to them too. (Which could be far more damaging than just being honest.)

If you do the two group thing, do it for real or don't do it at all, it's the most fair to everyone else involved that way too.

And no it's not cruel to say she either deals with Frank or she leaves, not compared to how cruel it is to make everyone else put up with her cause she wants to be in control.

kyoryu
2012-02-08, 09:07 PM
And no it's not cruel to say she either deals with Frank or she leaves, not compared to how cruel it is to make everyone else put up with her cause she wants to be in control.

To look at it a different way, is it more cruel to tell her that she puts up with Frank or she leaves, or is it more cruel to tell Frank he can't play because someone has some weird undefinable grudge against him?

Another way of figuring out the problem with Frank may be to ask her "what would need to change for you to be okay with Frank playing," or "what behavior would frank need to do/not do for you to be okay with him playing".

Laura Eternata
2012-02-08, 09:49 PM
Honestly I'd opt out of the two-group thing, especially if you're just going to use it to make up an excuse to not play with her. It would be equal to lying, and while you might not care anymore the people she are friends with might not be comfortable with it, unless you plan on lying about it to them too. (Which could be far more damaging than just being honest.)

If you do the two group thing, do it for real or don't do it at all, it's the most fair to everyone else involved that way too.

And no it's not cruel to say she either deals with Frank or she leaves, not compared to how cruel it is to make everyone else put up with her cause she wants to be in control.

Actually, her friends are the reason I'm considering the lying option. I had no intention of hiding it from them (Joan's keeping tabs on this thread, remember?) and was just thinking that they might prefer that over the possibility of an eruption next time we all get together.

There are varying degrees of cruelty. We're not even considering dropping Frank anymore, as that would be incredibly cruel.
Sara is technically being cruel, yes. Still, that doesn't mean we have the right to retaliate in kind.
It's somewhat cruel for us to tell Sara to get over it or get out, though more on the "brutal honesty" side of cruelty.
It, in my eyes at least, isn't especially cruel to lie to her in order to make her feel better about the group breaking up. Maybe she'll even have cooled off in a few weeks, and will be more open to joining the game proper when I shut down the other one. (Yeah, that's probably overly optimistic, but it's still a possibility. If we do decide to keep things the way they are, and she marches out in a rage, it would be very much like her to be too proud to ever come back, even if she does start to feel better about things.)

Still, if you all agree that running an extra game with every intent to end it is a bad idea, either morally or practically, then I'll follow your advice. If I could think everything through perfectly, I wouldn't have had to come here, after all.

kyoryu
2012-02-09, 12:36 AM
I don't think running a second campaign is a horrible idea. I think running a second campaign with the intent of dropping it is horribly passive aggressive.

There's nothing cruel at all about saying "this is how it is - you're welcome to join, or not." And if Sara can come up with something concrete about why she doesn't like Frank, then you can work with that as well.

That's honest and straightforward, not cruel.

Jornophelanthas
2012-02-09, 05:48 AM
Still, if you all agree that running an extra game with every intent to end it is a bad idea, either morally or practically, then I'll follow your advice. If I could think everything through perfectly, I wouldn't have had to come here, after all.

It would be better to actually make the effort. If you're not willing to, then perhaps someone else (George?) is up to being DM for a small group. He's more invested in maintaining a friendship in Sara than you are, anyway.

TriForce
2012-02-09, 09:20 AM
i do not consider having a 2nd group to be a bad thing, there have been times i was in 2 groups too, with one group only slightly different from the other. i do however consider it a bad thing to keep it a secret. you dont have to justify yourself for having a 2nd group, its not a crime to have a 2nd campaign just becouse you can, but if you keep it a secret it would just appear your doing it to spite her.

also, having a 2nd group is a nice backup just in case your normal campaign goes sour. but otherwise id just suggest keep on playing with both sara and frank in the same group (within reason ofcourse, the moment she starts kicking and screaming is the point you want to give up on that and her:P) , who knows, it might even help her more then she would like to admit to herself.


I believe the term you're looking for is "enabling." english isnt my first language, so im confused what you mean by this


(edit:) Now that i think of it, since you have show one of your friends this thread, could you perhaps convince her to post here too? i know your trying to display their reasoning as good as possible, but id be interested in hearing her toughts

Anxe
2012-02-09, 09:40 AM
Enabling is when you allow someone to continue doing a bad habit by reinforcing the bad habit. Most common example is a mother enabling her child by giving the child whatever it wants (cookies, no timeouts, cellphone when its 4 yearsold, etc). It is a bit of a slang term as the normal definition of enable is "to turn on or allow."

Do you understand now or do you need more clarification?

prufock
2012-02-09, 10:17 AM
It would be better to actually make the effort. If you're not willing to, then perhaps someone else (George?) is up to being DM for a small group. He's more invested in maintaining a friendship in Sara than you are, anyway.

Seconded. DM duties can be time-consuming. Have someone else take up the mantle for the second group.

Story Time
2012-02-09, 11:32 AM
With as much politeness as I can, I'll make a Logic List. None of this is meant to be offensive. :smallfrown:


Laura introduced Frank, George, and Sara to Dungeons & Dragons.
George and Sara did not have a good time.
Frank left.
Laura, George, and Sara played Dungeons & Dragons.
Laura and Sara invited Joan and Lilly to play Dungeons & Dragons.
Lilly and George were a couple at this time.
Joan was anti-social and Lilly paid no attention ( too busy with George? ).
Joan and Lilly were removed from The Group.
Laura, George, and Sara played Dungeons & Dragons ( The Group ).
Laura and George invited Frank and Joan to return.
Laura, Frank, George, Joan, and Sara played Dungeons & Dragons.
Sara did not have a good time.


Conclusion: Laura is not choosing new players well.


So...while trying to be polite and non-offensive, I'd like to recommend that Laura apologizes. To herself, to all of her friends, and especially to Sara no matter what choice Laura decides to make. I'll hope that it'll be the best choice possible. One which gives no one any amount of torment.

And if I did offend...I apologize. :smallfrown:

aberratio ictus
2012-02-09, 12:03 PM
It would be better to actually make the effort. If you're not willing to, then perhaps someone else (George?) is up to being DM for a small group. He's more invested in maintaining a friendship in Sara than you are, anyway.

I concur. If Sara doesn't even like you, why would she be offended if you dropped out of the first game and only joined the second game? This way, Sara gets to play with George and Joan, who are indeed interested in her friendship, and you get to play with George, Joan and Frank.

There is no need for pretending to play in two groups if you can have the same deal right away.

kyoryu
2012-02-09, 01:17 PM
i
english isnt my first language, so im confused what you mean by this



Sorry, that wasn't meant in any way as an attack - Anxe's definition is good.

My comment was more along the lines of "it seems like we're trying to avoid saying a specific word, and here it is." "Enabling" is often used with adults that have substance abuse problems, as those that support them "enable" them to continue their behavior which they would otherwise be forced to change.

Usually, the word "enabling" is used to suggest that the person "helping" is in fact doing more harm by allowing the harmful behavior to continue.

Laura Eternata
2012-02-09, 07:15 PM
I concur. If Sara doesn't even like you, why would she be offended if you dropped out of the first game and only joined the second game? This way, Sara gets to play with George and Joan, who are indeed interested in her friendship, and you get to play with George, Joan and Frank.

There is no need for pretending to play in two groups if you can have the same deal right away.

That's... actually a very good back up plan.



Conclusion: Laura is not choosing new players well.

Well, it's much easier to say that in retrospect... but yeah, I see your point. In the future, I should seriously consider not shaking up the status quo.


So...while trying to be polite and non-offensive, I'd like to recommend that Laura apologizes. To herself, to all of her friends, and especially to Sara no matter what choice Laura decides to make. I'll hope that it'll be the best choice possible. One which gives no one any amount of torment.

And if I did offend...I apologize. :smallfrown:

None taken, don't worry about it. I really am sorry to have brought this down on everyone, but I don't regret my actions. I thought that this would really be best for the group, that it would be more fun for all involved if we brought in more of our friends (I hadn't realized how deep Sara's dislike of Frank was, of course.) Still... if you're reading this, Joan, I am sorry...


i do not consider having a 2nd group to be a bad thing, there have been times i was in 2 groups too, with one group only slightly different from the other. i do however consider it a bad thing to keep it a secret. you dont have to justify yourself for having a 2nd group, its not a crime to have a 2nd campaign just becouse you can, but if you keep it a secret it would just appear your doing it to spite her.

I wasn't going to keep it secret. George, Joan, and I decided today that if we do take this course of action, we'll still invite Sara to all of our group's games on the off-chance she ever puts her inexplicable dislike of Frank aside.


also, having a 2nd group is a nice backup just in case your normal campaign goes sour. but otherwise id just suggest keep on playing with both sara and frank in the same group (within reason ofcourse, the moment she starts kicking and screaming is the point you want to give up on that and her:P) , who knows, it might even help her more then she would like to admit to herself.

That's true, I suppose.


(edit:) Now that i think of it, since you have show one of your friends this thread, could you perhaps convince her to post here too? i know your trying to display their reasoning as good as possible, but id be interested in hearing her toughts

I actually have no idea why Joan hasn't already done so. :smallconfused:


I don't think running a second campaign is a horrible idea. I think running a second campaign with the intent of dropping it is horribly passive aggressive.

Maybe it is. It just seems that, if we were to decide to just focus on one group, with Frank, that this would be the least confrontational way of accomplishing that goal. As aberratio said, George, Sara, and even Joan are perfectly capable of playing on their own; there's no reason for me to be playing along while one of the the players doesn't even like me as long as there's an alternative.


There's nothing cruel at all about saying "this is how it is - you're welcome to join, or not." And if Sara can come up with something concrete about why she doesn't like Frank, then you can work with that as well.

That's honest and straightforward, not cruel.

I'm still on the fence about the cruelty of the situation - while she hasn't said it in so many words, Sara's at least heavily implied that if Frank stays, she leaves, so keeping Frank and not coming up with an alternative is almost like kicking her out - but I do see where you're coming from. This part really isn't my decision; it's more up to whether Joan's willing to do this. If Sara does see it the way I do, she's likely to see Joan as a traitor for making it happen.

Joan, do you have any input on the matter?

kyoryu
2012-02-09, 08:19 PM
Maybe it is. It just seems that, if we were to decide to just focus on one group, with Frank, that this would be the least confrontational way of accomplishing that goal.

Yes, and that's pretty much the definition of "passive aggressive". Doesn't mean it's not a valid option, of course.


I'm still on the fence about the cruelty of the situation - while she hasn't said it in so many words, Sara's at least heavily implied that if Frank stays, she leaves, so keeping Frank and not coming up with an alternative is almost like kicking her out - but I do see where you're coming from.

Yeah, it's *her* decision to not come. You're saying she's welcome to, so you're not kicking her out. You aren't, and can't be, responsible for her decisions.

Again, finding some way to find out the issue with Frank really seems like a good idea. If it's nothing more than "I don't like him" and she can't even explain why, that's a pretty poor reason to not invite someone to the game. If there's an actual reason, even something as trivial as "he smells", you can work with the two of them to find a compromise.

Maybe Joan or someone else closer to Sara could ask?

Ornithologist
2012-02-09, 08:47 PM
For my 2 cents, I need to relate a thing that happened at one of my Gaming sessions.

I had a group of 2 as well, And we invited another 3 to join the group. At the half-way mark of the session we all went out to food. where I got to enjoy this particular exchange.

(New Player 1) "so, I'm sorry, I'm having an awful time. (Old Player1) has been staring at my chest for the last 3 hours of this thing and it is really creeping me out."

Which I followed up with" Yeah, that's a problem. I will talk to (Old Player 1) and get this sorted out. (Old Player 1 is my best friend and was my Best man at my wedding).

Long story short, I talked to (Old Player 1) and got the whole thing sorted out, Which included how we sat at the table, and what have you.

The point is that I think your best way to get this resolved is to get talking to both Sara and Frank. Find out what about Frank makes Sara crazy, and go from there if it's reasonable. It's all about conflict mediation.

remind her of the entertainment value of inter-party conflict if 2 of the characters don't like each other like another poster said.