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afroakuma
2012-02-10, 04:39 PM
Alright, so, here's a fun concept that I came up with recently and decided to share:

Picture a reboot of the prequel trilogy, leaving the original trilogy exactly the way it is. Forget the Expanded Universe for the moment - this is a reboot, it's films only. Anakin and Obi-Wan, kickin' around, working in the Jedi order, being all crazy space wizards with laser swords. Ominous stirrings in the Dark Side, the stress of hiding a relationship, going to be a new father, Republic eroding from within, all that sort of stuff.

And then, towards the end of the third film...

A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of Obi-Wan's until he turned to evil, helps the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrays and murders Anakin Skywalker.

Straight-up. Legit. No ambiguities.

Consider the implications:

Right off the bat: BVader is not Luke's father. Or Leia's father. Or probably anyone's father.

He is therefore so much a liar.

He is therefore the bestest liar ever.

Why? Because this Vader amplifies his lies with the Dark Side. Not only does he totally sell the lie, he also follows up with "Search your feelings, you know it to be true!" and Luke totally does. Luke believes it so completely and totally that he's willing to attempt suicide. So totally that Obi-Wan and Yoda, sensing what Vader has done, are forced to substantiate Vader's claim rather than cause Luke intense, Dark Side-fueled mental harm.

This makes Vader eeeevil beyond all compare. He pushes the kid of the fellow student he betrayed and murdered to the brink physically, unhands him, and then decides "hey, know what's more fun than killing? Driving him to suicide, that's more fun!"

Wait, though: does this square with the whole "he will join us or die" plan? Sure it does! In the original conference between the Emperor and Vader, Vader is 1) totally aware of Luke and 2) totally aware of the Vader Replacement Plan that ol' Palpy is cooking up. He starts with "he's just a boy" (he's too weak to replace me), Palpy gambits with "Well, he can't be allowed to become a Jedi" (anything's better than you, you wheezy old cripple) and Vader is forced to give the "I'm still loyal" response of "Fine, let's get his Dark Side on."

During the fight, Vader's playing his cards smart: if Luke gets carbonite'd, he's too weak to be a threat to Vader. If not... oops, too bad, he caught a lightsaber with his face. Sorry dude.

Wait, he survived? Poop. Well, better catch him then, the boss won't like it if I "fail." Fun ways to do that: use already-existing mental link from the last time I mindblasted him to attempt to push him into hijacking the Millennium Falcon! Luke. It is your destiny. Listen up kid, we're gonna - aww, nuts, he got away.

I can go on, but most of what proceeds is pretty easy to come up with. It completely changes the tone of the originals, though, and significantly increases Vader's "totally evil" levels while also giving his Dark Side cred more... cred. Vader doesn't need Force Lightning or fancy lightsaber technique or even Yoda's super-telekinesis. His specialization is

Dark Side mindrape, especially against Force-sensitives

which, while not always useful in the circumstances where a Jedi's related abilities would be more practical, allows Vader to gain such an unbelievable edge that he becomes even more of a threat.

Anyway, there's my diatribe. Thoughts? :smallsmile:

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-10, 04:44 PM
If you were rebooting the entire thing, that might work. But without changing the original films, it just wouldn't mesh. Look at the amount of explanation you needed in your post there, that wouldn't be present in the original trilogy you said you would be leaving unchanged.

Rebooting the two trilogies as an ongoing series, with the above concept could be interesting though.

Pokonic
2012-02-10, 04:56 PM
Hmm, yes, the Dark Side could always use some more street cred. Turning one of the most iconic foes of all time into a cusumate lier /mind rapist would be a... interesting twist. Whats would be the story behind the cybernetics, then? Or would he not need the exensive modification that Anakin needed?

afroakuma
2012-02-10, 04:57 PM
If you were rebooting the entire thing, that might work. But without changing the original films, it just wouldn't mesh. Look at the amount of explanation you needed in your post there, that wouldn't be present in the original trilogy you said you would be leaving unchanged.

Rebooting the two trilogies as an ongoing series, with the above concept could be interesting though.

Well, the idea would be that you'd see the rebooted films first and therefore come in with an understanding of exactly what it means for Vader to say what he does. The prequels establish things like the "rule of two" and Palpatine's love of swapping out new apprentices for old, clearly establish Luke's parentage and would likely show Vader's favorite Dark Side power (possibly during his "betrayal" of Anakin Skywalker). I can see a clash when it comes to Obi-Wan and Yoda having to explain away the lie, but if it can be shown during the prequels that they know what happens when you try to reverse Vader's mindrape, then even that flies pretty clean.

Reverent-One
2012-02-10, 05:02 PM
So how do you deal with the whole "sacrificing himself to save Luke and redeeming himself" issue?

afroakuma
2012-02-10, 05:04 PM
Hmm, yes, the Dark Side could always use some more street cred. Turning one of the most iconic foes of all time into a cusumate lier /mind rapist would be a... interesting twist. Whats would be the story behind the cybernetics, then? Or would he not need the exensive modification that Anakin needed?

Someone still probably gave Vader a charming lava bath. Maybe even Obi-Wan. After all, there's a good deal less angsty waffling and a lot more "you are the worst person ever" going on.

And it's not just the lies, it's the ability to press a damaging psychological edge in combat. SuperEvilVader could conceivably convince you that you were hearing the sound of your allies dying; that your left leg was tiring so you needed to begin favoring it; that he is so strong and terrifying that your Force powers are totally inferior. SuperEvilVader can rubberstamp your brain with the Dark Side, branding it with his own handcrafted "you will fail!"


So how do you deal with the whole "sacrificing himself to save Luke and redeeming himself" issue?

Hehehe, got that one covered for ya:

Sacrificing himself? Heck no. Palpy's got a nice Sith Lord throne that Vader wants all to himself; he's distracted torturing that dumb kid and HEY! free pit! See ya, Emperor! Long live the new awww poop my cybernetics.

If only there were some conveniently proximate, mentally-damaged imbecile nearby who believes that he's my son OH HEY LUKE. Let's get out of here... little buddy! Sport! Slugger!

Alright, this body's just not going to go much further. Time for the last gambit. "Luke. Help me take... this mask off."

There, now that our biological eyes are in contact and there are no cybernetics blocking me, it's time to mentally imprint myself on you using the prior damage I've done to hoist myself in. Sure it'll take quite a while before my Force Imprint can fully possess you, but I'm patient. Certainly better than the alternative.

(Of course, there's still the fallback wherein a dying Vader decides not to spit in humanity's eye in his last moments and does something nice for his former colleague's son, but I like Force Possession better.)

Reverent-One
2012-02-10, 05:15 PM
Hehehe, got that one covered for ya:

Sacrificing himself? Heck no. Palpy's got a nice Sith Lord throne that Vader wants all to himself; he's distracted torturing that dumb kid and HEY! free pit! See ya, Emperor! Long live the new awww poop my cybernetics.

If only there were some conveniently proximate, mentally-damaged imbecile nearby who believes that he's my son OH HEY LUKE. Let's get out of here... little buddy! Sport! Slugger!

Alright, this body's just not going to go much further. Time for the last gambit. "Luke. Help me take... this mask off."

There, now that our biological eyes are in contact and there are no cybernetics blocking me, it's time to mentally imprint myself on you using the prior damage I've done to hoist myself in. Sure it'll take quite a while before my Force Imprint can fully possess you, but I'm patient. Certainly better than the alternative.

(Of course, there's still the fallback wherein a dying Vader decides not to spit in humanity's eye in his last moments and does something nice for his former colleague's son, but I like Force Possession better.)

And then the spirit that shows up all buddy-buddy with obi-wan and yoda at the end?

Pokonic
2012-02-10, 05:25 PM
And then the spirit that shows up all buddy-buddy with obi-wan and yoda at the end?

Anaken, now clensed of Vaders corruption.

TheEmerged
2012-02-10, 05:26 PM
And then the spirit that shows up all buddy-buddy with obi-wan and yoda at the end?

I dunno... is obviously Luke's real father?

afroakuma
2012-02-10, 05:30 PM
And then the spirit that shows up all buddy-buddy with obi-wan and yoda at the end?

Anakin Skywalker as he would have appeared were he alive and healthy, his spirit able to walk comfortably now that his betrayer has "died" (not knowing about Vader's Force Imprint). Though frankly, Anakin appearing there has always been a plot hole regardless - Qui-Gon needed to teach Yoda, who taught Obi-Wan after Vader took getting baked a bit too literally. Vader never had the opportunity to learn how to become a Force ghost, so Anakin doing so is a large amount of hokum.

Then again, Lucas has shown a will to swap out the third ghost already - may as well digitally substitute in Qui-Gon for all that matters. :smalltongue:

TheEmerged
2012-02-10, 05:31 PM
And then the spirit that shows up all buddy-buddy with obi-wan and yoda at the end?

I dunno... is obviously Luke's real father?

hamishspence
2012-02-11, 08:21 AM
What would happen to Obi-wan's long explanation of "what I told you was true- from a certain point of view"?

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-11, 08:28 AM
Why did he kill the emperor then?

hamishspence
2012-02-11, 09:00 AM
Because he saw the Emperor had left himself totally open to attack during his torture/murder attempt of Luke.

That said, all the stuff with Yoda confirming Vader's claims in Return of the Jedi, and after that, Ben explaining, would be problematic.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-11, 09:05 AM
Im saying if he truly was an evil batsard and had no connection to Luke then why would he destroy the emperor?

hamishspence
2012-02-11, 09:59 AM
Same answer- because he's always wanted to destroy the emperor- he was just waiting for him to let down his guard. Wanting to destroy the Emperor doesn't automatically mean he's not evil.

Hence the appeal in Empire Strikes Back "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor- he has forseen this. It is your destiny".

Personally though I think it's one of the good things about RoTJ- the fact that Vader wasn't lying about being Luke's father.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-11, 11:08 AM
WHY! He killed him with suicide (Electricity and all)!

Hes so goddam evil he makes an evil empire and crashes it down because hes that evil?

It DOES sound like something out of Lucases head.

Weezer
2012-02-11, 11:30 AM
WHY! He killed him with suicide (Electricity and all)!

Hes so goddam evil he makes an evil empire and crashes it down because hes that evil?

It DOES sound like something out of Lucases head.

In this scenario I don't think that Vader expected to die, he was simply grabbing what was probably his only chance to seize control of the Empire. Who would have guessed that Palpy would freeze and just continue spraying lightning aimlessly into the air. Also perhaps Vader thought that his suit had been sufficiently hardened against lightning to protect him, after all it's not like he would've been in a position to test it and it would be right up Palpy's alley to give vader lightning "proof" armor, when it was really still vulnerable to his force lightning.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-11, 11:59 AM
He could have sliced him in half with a lightsaber! Much faster!

Why the hell would he take off his mask then?

hamishspence
2012-02-11, 12:07 PM
He lost his lightsaber (and his hand) down the Death Star's shaft a moment before.

He could have telekinetically grabbed Luke's and wielded it lefthanded, I suppose.

KnightDisciple
2012-02-11, 01:07 PM
Don't like it, sorry.

It robs a lot of the meaning and myth from the original trilogy, and without touching the original trilogy you have to go through so many mental gymnastics that the real Prequels are less tiring to watch as a build-up.

But most of all, it cuts off the sincere impact of learning that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker, that he is the father of Luke and Leia.
It takes that touching scene of redemption at the end, of a father who's made so many mistakes trying to do one last good thing in his life for the son that he loved in his own broken way, and smashes it in the mud.
I don't like smashing that theme in the mud. :smallannoyed:

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-11, 01:16 PM
He lost his lightsaber (and his hand) down the Death Star's shaft a moment before.

He could have telekinetically grabbed Luke's and wielded it lefthanded, I suppose.

I meant:

"Hey Emperor"

"what"

"DIE!"

The Glyphstone
2012-02-11, 01:19 PM
Yeah, sacrificing the quality of the OT for the drek of the prequels isn't a step up overall IMO.

Dr.Epic
2012-02-11, 01:20 PM
That makes no sense. In episode 6, Obi-Wan and Yoda come forward to Luke about Vader being his father. Not to mention makes no sense why Vader would turn on the Emperor at the very end of Jedi. I ruins a lot of the drama and conflict in the final parts of the original trilogy.