PDA

View Full Version : Batman V.S Palpatine



Pages : [1] 2

DarthArminius
2012-02-12, 11:36 AM
I was thinking that maybe Palpatine appears in DC comics. He is a very powerful sorcerer like character and has absolutely awesome planning ability. He has a lightsaber and was only outclassed by it from Mace Windu.

Batman, well, he's Batman. He's got gadgets, a hidden location (We can pretend Palpatine has to exert some effort to find Batsie there.), and is also an absolutely awesome planner. He's no slouch in combat either, and knows how to survive fights against superior opponents and come out on top.

So, not just in a fight, but a conflict of different kinds, who wins?

Darth Sidious, or Batman.

Traab
2012-02-12, 11:53 AM
Darth Sideous uses his amazing manipulative powers to create a dc universe Civil War scenario as he rises to the presidency. He proceeds to outlaw all costume vigilantes and has them hunted down by the law enforcement officers with authorization to kill if they dont surrender. Batman loses because now all of america treats him as a bad guy.

The Succubus
2012-02-12, 12:13 PM
How many Vs threads do you have going? Oo

Tirian
2012-02-12, 12:49 PM
Darth Sideous uses his amazing manipulative powers to create a dc universe Civil War scenario as he rises to the presidency. He proceeds to outlaw all costume vigilantes and has them hunted down by the law enforcement officers with authorization to kill if they dont surrender. Batman loses because now all of america treats him as a bad guy.

I can't count the number of elseworlds where Batman was in this precise situation and won. Counter-authority is what he is. Batman is Han Solo, Crix Madine, and Talon Karrde rolled into one, and Palpatine wasn't able to shut down any of them. Of course, neither could those three rolled together beat Palpatine either, but all Batman would need is a Jedi to deliver the prophesied killing blow.

Traab
2012-02-12, 01:20 PM
I can't count the number of elseworlds where Batman was in this precise situation and won. Counter-authority is what he is. Batman is Han Solo, Crix Madine, and Talon Karrde rolled into one, and Palpatine wasn't able to shut down any of them. Of course, neither could those three rolled together beat Palpatine either, but all Batman would need is a Jedi to deliver the prophesied killing blow.

Im sure he has a cryogenically frozen and shrunk jedi stashed in that utility belt of his. I bet its right next to his "anti sith lightning spray" :smallbiggrin: If palpatine includes the criminals in his shoot to kill orders, it would even remove much of the need for batman to exist, as it would make some rather large strides in cleaning up gotham if his entire rogues gallery winds up breathing out of a few new holes. And if palpatine is president, then that also counters just about anything batman is willing to do about it. Wasnt one of his biggest fears the whole Justice Lords fiasco? He refuses to get involved in politics for fear of creating a scenario where he and his fellow capes basically take over.

Mando Knight
2012-02-12, 01:33 PM
Darth Sideous uses his amazing manipulative powers to create a dc universe Civil War scenario as he rises to the presidency. He proceeds to outlaw all costume vigilantes and has them hunted down by the law enforcement officers with authorization to kill if they dont surrender. Batman loses because now all of america treats him as a bad guy.

Pretty sure Luthor already tried that.

If Palpatine is without his fleets, etc., he's going to need to work a lot harder to get beyond the point where he's just an arrogant manipulator with psionic powers.

Traab
2012-02-12, 02:04 PM
Pretty sure Luthor already tried that.

If Palpatine is without his fleets, etc., he's going to need to work a lot harder to get beyond the point where he's just an arrogant manipulator with psionic powers.

Pfft, if palpy can manipulate an entire galaxy im sure he can manage to do the same to a single nation.

Howler Dagger
2012-02-12, 02:39 PM
Two words: Death Star.

Mando Knight
2012-02-12, 02:57 PM
Pfft, if palpy can manipulate an entire galaxy im sure he can manage to do the same to a single nation.
Luthor's done that already. Turned the world against both Superman and Batman.

Two words: Death Star.
And without Vader to defend its weak point? Batman flies the Batwing down the trench and fires a Bat-Torpedo into the shaft.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-12, 03:49 PM
Pfft, if palpy can manipulate an entire galaxy im sure he can manage to do the same to a single nation.

Yeah and it only took him hundreds on years to pull off. (Assuming he was working towards that at the beginning.)

Psyren
2012-02-13, 12:04 PM
Pfft, if palpy can manipulate an entire galaxy im sure he can manage to do the same to a single nation.

Is said nation as moronic as the Republic was?

Da'Shain
2012-02-13, 12:12 PM
Is said nation as moronic as the Republic was?As was mentioned, said nation elected Lex Luthor. So yes. If not even more so.

Traab
2012-02-13, 02:05 PM
As was mentioned, said nation elected Lex Luthor. So yes. If not even more so.

Yeah really, I mean, this is the guy whose company keeps getting its newest high tech weaponry "stolen" and used against superman! How can they trust him with national security, if the idiot cant hire people capable of locking the dang door?!

Tyndmyr
2012-02-13, 02:35 PM
Is said nation as moronic as the Republic was?

Absolutely. Holy god, are they moronic in that series. Read "Dark Knight Strikes Back" and "Dark Knight Returns" for the full story.

HalfTangible
2012-02-13, 03:36 PM
Pfft, if palpy can manipulate an entire galaxy im sure he can manage to do the same to a single nation.

He manipulated an entire galaxy's worth of bureaucracy.

Manipulating a single nation's is much much harder because there's much much LESS, especially when said nation only has to watch itself, and not hundreds of thousands of other entire PLANETS.

I'd say that, in a straight up fight, Batman would win, especially if he knew what sith were capable of. But it's very unlikely to be a straight-up fight. In any battle between the two, Palpatine will have foreseen the fight (either through freaky-jedi powers or his own intelligence) and prepared accordingly, putting the Bat at a huge disadvantage because while you can fry all of Bat's gadgets you can't fry the Force.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-13, 07:07 PM
He manipulated an entire galaxy's worth of bureaucracy.

Manipulating a single nation's is much much harder because there's much much LESS, especially when said nation only has to watch itself, and not hundreds of thousands of other entire PLANETS.

I'd say that, in a straight up fight, Batman would win, especially if he knew what sith were capable of. But it's very unlikely to be a straight-up fight. In any battle between the two, Palpatine will have foreseen the fight (either through freaky-jedi powers or his own intelligence) and prepared accordingly, putting the Bat at a huge disadvantage because while you can fry all of Bat's gadgets you can't fry the Force.

Hmmm. Thing is, the Force doesn't seem to really be that useful for glimpses of the future as such (not that I've seen, anyway) and even when it is, it seems to be purely in relation to other powerful force users. Chances are, all the heads-up Palpatine should count on amounts to some confusing dreams about some kind of batlike creature stalking him when he thinks he's safe.

And as for forseeing it with his intelligence, I can't help but think the simple fact that his opponant is not a jedi or any kind of force user means he isn't likely to take the threat seriously until it's far too late.

Fan
2012-02-13, 07:26 PM
He manipulated an entire galaxy's worth of bureaucracy.

Manipulating a single nation's is much much harder because there's much much LESS, especially when said nation only has to watch itself, and not hundreds of thousands of other entire PLANETS.

I'd say that, in a straight up fight, Batman would win, especially if he knew what sith were capable of. But it's very unlikely to be a straight-up fight. In any battle between the two, Palpatine will have foreseen the fight (either through freaky-jedi powers or his own intelligence) and prepared accordingly, putting the Bat at a huge disadvantage because while you can fry all of Bat's gadgets you can't fry the Force.

Because they have less to focus on it's harder to manipulate them?

Please, our current national leaders can barely handle the load given to them, much less pay attention to some upstart.

It'd be like Vermin Supreme, only with no actual lulz.

Mando Knight
2012-02-13, 07:28 PM
I'd say that, in a straight up fight, Batman would win, especially if he knew what sith were capable of. But it's very unlikely to be a straight-up fight. In any battle between the two, Palpatine will have foreseen the fight (either through freaky-jedi powers or his own intelligence) and prepared accordingly, putting the Bat at a huge disadvantage because while you can fry all of Bat's gadgets you can't fry the Force.

If Batman has prepared accordingly as well, then he's going to be using his EM-hardened equipment.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-13, 07:29 PM
Because they have less to focus on it's harder to manipulate them?

Please, our current national leaders can barely handle the load given to them, much less pay attention to some upstart.

It'd be like Vermin Supreme, only with no actual lulz.

No, he's saying that because there is less scope, it's harder to slip between the cracks. He'll be noticed a lot sooner and easier in a single-nation bureaucracy, because he's an outside force trying to worm his way in rather than already being inside and working his way up.

Bats all the way, considering, as mentioned, he's faced this exact scenario a few times with enemies who are more personally powerful than Palps in a standup fight.

Fan
2012-02-13, 07:30 PM
Eh, I wouldn't say that with EU Palps.

Dude could, and would, just nuke the planet with force storms.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-13, 07:32 PM
Pre-resurrection?

Actually, that's a good point. What era is Palpatine from? Palpatine before he died and came back was significantly weaker - a schemer and manipulator, but only great, not godlike, in Force powers. It's after he takes his first clone body that he starts projecting Force Storm wormholes across galaxies and all that EU insanity.

DarthArminius
2012-02-13, 07:39 PM
Pre-resurrection?

Actually, that's a good point. What era is Palpatine from? Palpatine before he died and came back was significantly weaker - a schemer and manipulator, but only great, not godlike, in Force powers. It's after he takes his first clone body that he starts projecting Force Storm wormholes across galaxies and all that EU insanity.

Pre-existant.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-13, 07:44 PM
Pre-existant.

Before he exists?

DarthArminius
2012-02-13, 07:54 PM
Before he exists?


Before sarcasm exists.

HalfTangible
2012-02-13, 08:44 PM
Because they have less to focus on it's harder to manipulate them?

Please, our current national leaders can barely handle the load given to them, much less pay attention to some upstart.

It'd be like Vermin Supreme, only with no actual lulz.

I said it's be HARDER, not difficult. :smalltongue:

Flickerdart
2012-02-13, 08:47 PM
I'm not entirely convinced that if Palpatine were to seize power in the world and outlaw Batman, that Batman would even care overmuch. What would people do, try to get the police to catch him? Call in the army every time someone sees a black cape? In this contest, mooks are absolutely pointless, because they don't really pose a threat to either competitor.

So ultimately what it comes down to is who can die and then come back more often. My money is on the DC character, any day.

HalfTangible
2012-02-13, 09:02 PM
I'm not entirely convinced that if Palpatine were to seize power in the world and outlaw Batman, that Batman would even care overmuch. What would people do, try to get the police to catch him? Call in the army every time someone sees a black cape? In this contest, mooks are absolutely pointless, because they don't really pose a threat to either competitor.

So ultimately what it comes down to is who can die and then come back more often. My money is on the DC character, any day.One of Bat's biggest advantages in Gotham is that the police aren't working against him - heck, they work WITH him more often than not.


No, he's saying that because there is less scope, it's harder to slip between the cracks. He'll be noticed a lot sooner and easier in a single-nation bureaucracy, because he's an outside force trying to worm his way in rather than already being inside and working his way up.Exactly. Remember a few things here: 1) A large part of Palpatine's takeover was that nobody really cared about him before he became supreme chancellor.
2) He became chancellor so slowly that the original reason he was voted in was over and done with by the time he was able to do anything.
3) Judging from the dialogue on the Death Star in New Hope, It took almost 20 years before the Emperor got rid of the senate after getting supreme power over the empire. That strikes me as something you'd only do when the Senate has no real power any more. So the senate had TWENTY YEARS to come up with a way to put a leash on the Emperor. One man.

I'm sorry, I don't care if the guy has superpowers, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO AT LEAST GET JOB SECURITY!!


Bats all the way, considering, as mentioned, he's faced this exact scenario a few times with enemies who are more personally powerful than Palps in a standup fight.

In the EU, Palpatine was directing the minds of every single soldier on Endor and above Endor at the battle of the Death Star, as well as tempting Luke and later shooting him lightning.

Here's a thought: Palpatine is supposed to be immortal. Couldn't he just wait until Bats died of old age?

Traab
2012-02-13, 09:06 PM
Palpy picks batman up with the force, holding his arms and legs still. He then proceeds to draw and quarter the caped crusader with the power of the Force. Is there ANy canon info that suggests this isnt possible? Or is somehow impractical? I mean, if yoda can lift a starfighter out of a swamp, I would think palpatine could tear an arm out of its socket. I see this fight happening in a few ways.

1) Long range. Batman is tossing batarangs, smoke pellets, whatever at palpatine from the shadows, constantly moving. Palpatine uses the force and his light saber to deflect everything. Eventually batman runs out of ammo, or palpatine retaliates with a chunk of concrete the size of a buick to the face. Palpatine wins. Seriously, a trained jedi/sith avoids BLASTER bolts. A freaking batarang aint going to hit him.

2) Close range. Sideous has a lightsaber that can cut through just about anything. Batman can only dodge, no blocks or parries as that is just begging to lose a limb or whatever weapon he is holding. Plus, that leaves him open to being targeted by my original force method.

3) Assassination method. Batman goes for the sneak attack instant win. Possible, but highly unlikely, as most force users seem to have at least some form of precognition. Especially the really powerful ones like yoda or palpatine. Or am I wrong about that?

KingofMadCows
2012-02-13, 11:42 PM
But the only reason why Palpatine was able to manipulate everyone was because everyone was stupid.

Granted, people in the DC universe can be really stupid too, depending on the writers, but I don't think they can be that dumb.

thubby
2012-02-14, 12:09 AM
batman has fought stronger enemies and won convincingly.

Flame of Anor
2012-02-14, 02:38 AM
Batman has an ysalamir (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysalamir) in his utility belt. Game, set, and match to the g--d--n Batman.

/thread

Dumbledore lives
2012-02-14, 02:55 AM
I understand that Batman is crazy prepared and all that, but given the force had not previously existed in the world I'm not sure why people are saying he would win in a straight up fight. I'm fairly sure Palpatine could use force choke, so if he even sees Batman and wants to he can pretty much straight up kill him. I understand that Batman is a better planner, but in any open confrontation not involving stealth I'm fairly sure Palpatine has it covered.

thubby
2012-02-14, 03:07 AM
I understand that Batman is crazy prepared and all that, but given the force had not previously existed in the world I'm not sure why people are saying he would win in a straight up fight. I'm fairly sure Palpatine could use force choke, so if he even sees Batman and wants to he can pretty much straight up kill him. I understand that Batman is a better planner, but in any open confrontation not involving stealth I'm fairly sure Palpatine has it covered.

he's fought magic users and psionics before. while the fluff changes, the effects are fairly generic. lightning, telekinesis, super human abilities, mind control, these arent new to the dc universe.

Lord Raziere
2012-02-14, 03:18 AM
Palpatine.

The guy created and ran an empire for about 40 years or so. He got an entire galaxy to dance to his strings. Even at his weakest, he has far more power than Batman ever had, since he held a seat in a galaxy-spanning Republic and had secret conspirators against the Republic dancing to his strings as well. He has access to far more advanced technology as well, and none of this taking into account that he has force powers on par with Yoda.

Batman is a rich boy with lots of toys who routinely gets outsmarted by a crazy man who thinks killing people and causing mass destruction are funny jokes.

Hopeless
2012-02-14, 05:48 AM
Palpatine.

The guy created and ran an empire for about 40 years or so. He got an entire galaxy to dance to his strings. Even at his weakest, he has far more power than Batman ever had, since he held a seat in a galaxy-spanning Republic and had secret conspirators against the Republic dancing to his strings as well. He has access to far more advanced technology as well, and none of this taking into account that he has force powers on par with Yoda.

Batman is a rich boy with lots of toys who routinely gets outsmarted by a crazy man who thinks killing people and causing mass destruction are funny jokes.

Who is quite probably the one person Palpatine should be afraid of!

Even if Palpatine could seize power are we forgetting Bats isn't the only hero on the dc version of Earth?

Even if Waller doesn't arrange Palpatine's funeral via the suicide squad or Lex Luthor demonstrating why he's Superman's nemesis are you seriously suggesting Palpatine would ever demonstrate his true power where they can see it?!

Until Empire Strikes Back it was commonly thought Palpatine was being manipulated by his cronies not vice versa!

This guy would befriend anyone of any importance, learn all of their weaknesses including secret identities and arrange things so it would be in their best interests to support him!

Yes I know the story line in revenge of the sith sucked but Palpatine's part made sense considering he pretty much wrote the Evil Overlord's List and would be tarquin's hero when it comes to genre savvy his weak spot is that like the so-called Republic Jedi Order believed he had sown everything up too tight and overlooked the possibility that maybe he hadn't covered all of his bases.

And as we know Bats will be in there and yes he'll be force choked but you darn well know he has a few million backup plans and only ONE has to succeed for him to win!

Death Star? Been there done that! Could even introduce said spacestation to that red sun enemy that came back from the future to cause its own creation.

Introduce to Lex Luthor to demonstrate there's already a Palpatine excluding powers on Earth and doing a better job (cloned body included!) and then introduce him to the joker and leave them together either the Joker kills Palpatine or Pal kills the Joker... a win win scenario!

Somehow I think Palpatine will stick with Europe first, the US has enough problems!

The Glyphstone
2012-02-14, 08:49 AM
Unfortunately, this isn't Palpatine vs. DC Universe, this is strictly Palpatine vs. Batman.

Chen
2012-02-14, 09:02 AM
he's fought magic users and psionics before. while the fluff changes, the effects are fairly generic. lightning, telekinesis, super human abilities, mind control, these arent new to the dc universe.

The problem is anyone with super-human telekinesis (or strength usually) tends to just throw people around with it. Movies, comics, tv whatever. If you're fighting something with super strength be ready to be thrown into things. Instead of, you know, picked up and ripped in half. Going with the point that was made earlier, if a strong force user can pick up an X-wing from a swamp I'm pretty sure he could almost instantly tear a human's head right off.

Friv
2012-02-14, 09:04 AM
The problem is anyone with super-human telekinesis (or strength usually) tends to just throw people around with it. Movies, comics, tv whatever. If you're fighting something with super strength be ready to be thrown into things. Instead of, you know, picked up and ripped in half. Going with the point that was made earlier, if a strong force user can pick up an X-wing from a swamp I'm pretty sure he could almost instantly tear a human's head right off.

I am willing to assume that, the Force being the Force, there's a degree of resistance when you use it against a fellow sentient being that does not exist when used against objects, and that resistance is based around how strong said being is with the Force themselves.

Yora
2012-02-14, 09:12 AM
Palpatines strength works not in a vacuum, but is essentially tied to the world he lives in. He has spend decades in preparation, based on the work of generations of Sith Lords before him, to get into the position and weild the influence he has.
In any other world, he's just some old dude who shots lightning from his fingers.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-14, 09:20 AM
Or, the Force being the Force, it doesn't have that level of distinction. If it bypasses physics entirely because it's space magic, it's entirely possible that you cannot rip someone apart because it doesn't work that way. You lift a spaceship or throw a person because you focus on the ship or person and think 'move that way', the ship or person being a single entity; trying to move their upper body one direction and their lower body another direction would fail because the two halves are still connected and so remain one object. Two force users each pulling something/someone in different directions doesn't tear them in half, it becomes a battle of wills to see whose power prevails and overwhelms the other.

Traab
2012-02-14, 09:52 AM
Or, the Force being the Force, it doesn't have that level of distinction. If it bypasses physics entirely because it's space magic, it's entirely possible that you cannot rip someone apart because it doesn't work that way. You lift a spaceship or throw a person because you focus on the ship or person and think 'move that way', the ship or person being a single entity; trying to move their upper body one direction and their lower body another direction would fail because the two halves are still connected and so remain one object. Two force users each pulling something/someone in different directions doesn't tear them in half, it becomes a battle of wills to see whose power prevails and overwhelms the other.

I dont know, have we ever seen two force users PULLING in opposite directions? We have seen force pushes act like shoving two north poles of very strong magnets towards each other and launching them apart. We have seen then throw things at each other and stop or deflect them in midair. I dont recall a single scene where two force users were each trying to bring something to them, such as say, the same lightsaber, and observing what happens.

But even if that is the case, We HAVE seen people get their throats crushed by force chokes. We HAVE seen people immobilized by the force, (I think) so even assuming palpatine doesnt reach out and throat crush batman, bypassing his armor all together, he could just hold him still and shove a lightsaber through his face. Hell, we saw vadar kill a guy with the force from another space ship entirely! Even if you need to see the guy to do it, just trick batman into a video conference. Its been done before, setup a crime, then when he shows up the screen lights up and the bad guy does his usual taunt thing with batman. Only this time, as soon as palpatine sees him, /crunch goes the throat. HOW DO YOU STOP THAT?!

The Glyphstone
2012-02-14, 11:10 AM
I dont know, have we ever seen two force users PULLING in opposite directions? We have seen force pushes act like shoving two north poles of very strong magnets towards each other and launching them apart. We have seen then throw things at each other and stop or deflect them in midair. I dont recall a single scene where two force users were each trying to bring something to them, such as say, the same lightsaber, and observing what happens.

No, but the opposing forces thing is circumstantial evidence. If the Force followed physics, two people fighting to push one object towards each other should have crushed it between them, not end with it flying in one direction or the other.



But even if that is the case, We HAVE seen people get their throats crushed by force chokes. We HAVE seen people immobilized by the force, (I think) so even assuming palpatine doesnt reach out and throat crush batman, bypassing his armor all together, he could just hold him still and shove a lightsaber through his face. Hell, we saw vadar kill a guy with the force from another space ship entirely! Even if you need to see the guy to do it, just trick batman into a video conference. Its been done before, setup a crime, then when he shows up the screen lights up and the bad guy does his usual taunt thing with batman. Only this time, as soon as palpatine sees him, /crunch goes the throat. HOW DO YOU STOP THAT?!

Force Choke doesn't crush the throat, though, it simply closes it and asphyxiates them - otherwise the guy Vader let free in ANH wouldn't have recovered afterwards. I imagine Batman can survive being choked long enough to retaliate, even if it's simply smashing the video screen.

DarthArminius
2012-02-14, 11:20 AM
Unfortunately, this isn't Palpatine vs. DC Universe, this is strictly Palpatine vs. Batman.

You're mostly correct, I wouldn't allow anyone to send in Superman v.s Palpatine, we all know how that would end, however, I did specify in the OP that this was supposed to be a long term battle. Given that, this could be the same as Bat Man + Robin + Catwoman, etcetera in to see Palpatine, in addition to Street Level characters, as long as Darth Sidious has certain mooks to send in to kill Bat Man as well.

Traab
2012-02-14, 11:36 AM
No, but the opposing forces thing is circumstantial evidence. If the Force followed physics, two people fighting to push one object towards each other should have crushed it between them, not end with it flying in one direction or the other.



Force Choke doesn't crush the throat, though, it simply closes it and asphyxiates them - otherwise the guy Vader let free in ANH wouldn't have recovered afterwards. I imagine Batman can survive being choked long enough to retaliate, even if it's simply smashing the video screen.

Possibly. But then, a smart man out to kill and not terrify and torture would wait until batman exhaled to start, GREATLY reducing the time he has left to react. Secondly, batman wouldnt know about whats happening or how, so his first instinct most likely wouldnt be to smash the moniter, (which isnt the problem, its the hidden camera/s that palpatine is seeing him with) Im pretty sure thats a death trap not even batman could escape from. PERHAPS, if he took off at a dead run for the exit, he could get out of sight, (if that would even work, im honestly not sure) and remove the choke effect before blacking out, but once again, palpatine is also a big planning type. Im pretty sure he would set things up so there is no fast escape. Something like, I dunno, all exits being sealed by metal sheets. He only needs a few seconds for batman to black out if he got him on the exhale.

As for force pushing and such, it might crush the item, if said items are fragile enough to not be able to withstand the forces involved. Even then, most of the movie scenes I can think of involved force throws being countered by force catches and a follow up throw of their own. For example, the fight between yoda and sideous. Those senate seats were flung at yoda, but was palpatine still controlling them when yoda caught them? Or against tyrannus at the end of the second movie when he is dropping huge metallic things on yoda. Was he force pushing them the whole time? Or did he just rip it loose and let it fall?

The Glyphstone
2012-02-14, 11:40 AM
I dont know, have we ever seen two force users PULLING in opposite directions? We have seen force pushes act like shoving two north poles of very strong magnets towards each other and launching them apart. We have seen then throw things at each other and stop or deflect them in midair. I dont recall a single scene where two force users were each trying to bring something to them, such as say, the same lightsaber, and observing what happens.

No, but the opposing forces thing is circumstantial evidence. If the Force followed physics, two people fighting to push one object towards each other should have crushed it between them, not end with it flying in one direction or the other.



But even if that is the case, We HAVE seen people get their throats crushed by force chokes. We HAVE seen people immobilized by the force, (I think) so even assuming palpatine doesnt reach out and throat crush batman, bypassing his armor all together, he could just hold him still and shove a lightsaber through his face. Hell, we saw vadar kill a guy with the force from another space ship entirely! Even if you need to see the guy to do it, just trick batman into a video conference. Its been done before, setup a crime, then when he shows up the screen lights up and the bad guy does his usual taunt thing with batman. Only this time, as soon as palpatine sees him, /crunch goes the throat. HOW DO YOU STOP THAT?!

Force Choke doesn't crush the throat, though, it simply closes it and asphyxiates them - otherwise the guy Vader let free in ANH wouldn't have recovered afterwards. I imagine Batman can survive being choked long enough to retaliate, even if it's simply smashing the video screen.

hamishspence
2012-02-14, 11:54 AM
Hell, we saw vadar kill a guy with the force from another space ship entirely!

When? As far as I can tell, Ozzel, Piett and Vader were all on the Executor during that scene in The Empire Strikes Back- they were just in different rooms- the other two were on the bridge, Vader was in his mediation chamber.

Now it's certainly happened in the EU (Outbound Flight springs to mind) but I can't remember it happening in the movies.

Traab
2012-02-14, 11:58 AM
When? As far as I can tell, Ozzel, Piett and Vader were all on the Executor during that scene in The Empire Strikes Back- they were just in different rooms- the other two were on the bridge, Vader was in his mediation chamber.

Now it's certainly happened in the EU (Outbound Flight springs to mind) but I can't remember it happening in the movies.

Oops, thought it was another ship. Still, distance doesnt seem to be that big of a factor. Even if there is a range limit, so long as it isnt something like 100 feet or less, palpatine could still pull off the ambush from relative safety a block away or whatever.

hamishspence
2012-02-14, 12:06 PM
In Outbound Flight Palpatine is several hundred light years away:


"I'm afraid we've had a slight setback in our mission"
"I don't wish to hear about setbacks, Master Doriana," the Sith Lord said, his gravelly voice taking on a menacing edge.
"Yes, my lord," Doriana said, trying to stay calm. Even hundreds of light years away he could practically feel Sidious's Force grip resting against his throat. "Let me explain."

but this may be psychosomatic rather than real.

It does occur from one ship to another later in the book- but that's more like kilometres.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-14, 12:13 PM
Wasn't Vader stronger then Palpatine originally? (before EU crazy) Also from what I understand it isn't actually anymore difficult to move an entire person vs an entire ship with the force. The hard part is getting it to do extra stuff like actually work.

Traab
2012-02-14, 12:26 PM
In Outbound Flight Palpatine is several hundred light years away:



but this may be psychosomatic rather than real.

It does occur from one ship to another later in the book- but that's more like kilometres.


Thats really all we need for my plan to work. If palpatine could be anywhere withing a couple kilometers of his batman deathtrap, that is a wide range to safely hide in while he force chokes batman to death. Tell me, is there ever evidence of a force choke when he CANT see his target? Or any force ability at all really.

hamishspence
2012-02-14, 12:41 PM
Doriana is uncertain that cutting off the view screen will do any good (when it happens).

I would say that you at least initially need to be able to see the victim in real time.

So if Palpatine wanted to force choke batman from "out of sight", he'd need to get a camera within sight of him, and be looking at Batman's real-time image.

thubby
2012-02-14, 12:46 PM
im probably going to get drawn and quartered for this, but...

would the force even work outside the starwars universe? i mean, we dont have midichlorians, so how much power could palpatine even have relying entirely on the ones he brings with him?

The Glyphstone
2012-02-14, 12:50 PM
How long would it take Batman to acquire a suit of synthesized Cortosis Bat-Armor? If he can synthesize Red Kryptonite, refined cortosis ore shouldn't be impossible.

Anteros
2012-02-14, 01:08 PM
Possibly. But then, a smart man out to kill and not terrify and torture would wait until batman exhaled to start, GREATLY reducing the time he has left to react. Secondly, batman wouldnt know about whats happening or how, so his first instinct most likely wouldnt be to smash the moniter, (which isnt the problem, its the hidden camera/s that palpatine is seeing him with) Im pretty sure thats a death trap not even batman could escape from. PERHAPS, if he took off at a dead run for the exit, he could get out of sight, (if that would even work, im honestly not sure) and remove the choke effect before blacking out, but once again, palpatine is also a big planning type. Im pretty sure he would set things up so there is no fast escape. Something like, I dunno, all exits being sealed by metal sheets. He only needs a few seconds for batman to black out if he got him on the exhale.

As for force pushing and such, it might crush the item, if said items are fragile enough to not be able to withstand the forces involved. Even then, most of the movie scenes I can think of involved force throws being countered by force catches and a follow up throw of their own. For example, the fight between yoda and sideous. Those senate seats were flung at yoda, but was palpatine still controlling them when yoda caught them? Or against tyrannus at the end of the second movie when he is dropping huge metallic things on yoda. Was he force pushing them the whole time? Or did he just rip it loose and let it fall?

Batman would probably drop smoke in that scenario. Plus, he's not exactly bad at hiding.


How long would it take Batman to acquire a suit of synthesized Cortosis Bat-Armor? If he can synthesize Red Kryptonite, refined cortosis ore shouldn't be impossible.

Knowing Batman he already has 3.

Traab
2012-02-14, 01:16 PM
Batman would probably drop smoke in that scenario. Plus, he's not exactly bad at hiding.



Knowing Batman he already has 3.

Meh, its one thing for him to synthesize something that already exists on his world, its another thing for him to literally recreate an entire element that doesnt currently exist that protects against this specific thing that he has never encountered before. As for dropping smoke, the whole point of this is this is palpatines first real strike. He hasnt used force powers openly yet. Batman doesnt know about them, he doesnt know what they can do, what the limits are, or what palpatine is doing. All he knows is his latest supervillain has setup a fairly standard viewscreen gloating session, when suddenly he cant breathe. He would likely try to do a number of things, like think he is under a chemical attack and put on a filter mask, or head for the nearest exit. Meanwhile palpatine is not giving out information on what is happening to him, he has cameras everywhere to maintain his visual contact with batman, and in 30 seconds or less, batman has blacked out.

Flickerdart
2012-02-14, 03:49 PM
How does he have "cameras everywhere"? I wasn't aware that Batman contracted Palpatine to install cameras in his Batcave before this happened. Also, Palpatine has absolutely no resources, so he can't just buy these. He would have to mill around and either build up capital or mindtrick people into giving these invisible wireless zero-latency hidden cameras to him - which would probably set off a few alarm bells that Batman would pick up on.

Traab
2012-02-14, 03:59 PM
How does he have "cameras everywhere"? I wasn't aware that Batman contracted Palpatine to install cameras in his Batcave before this happened. Also, Palpatine has absolutely no resources, so he can't just buy these. He would have to mill around and either build up capital or mindtrick people into giving these invisible wireless zero-latency hidden cameras to him - which would probably set off a few alarm bells that Batman would pick up on.

I never mentioned the bat cave, the basic gist of the plan is, palpatine snags one of the apparently thousands of abandoned warehouses in gotham, wires them up with cameras, and lures batman there. Shouldnt be hard to use force manipulation to make a purse snatcher or some other criminal being chased by batman run in there "to hide" And I can almost smell the sarcasm dripping off of you about the cameras, dont forget, this is batmans world, noone ever has problems with cameras that lag behind real time or setting up these little big screen gloat sessions with batman that takes place from time to time.

There are so many ways palpatine could manage to get ahold of this gear that its hard to just list a few. He could arrange to meet some of batmans rogue gallery, mind control them into turning over a stash or two, (How else do you think they manage to get back up and running with full regalia so soon after escaping arkham) then forgetting they ever met him, and now he has funds to purchase whatever he wants. He is a smart man from a seriously technologically advanced society. Im sure he can manage to cover his tracks electronically well enough until after the big reveal, and im sure he is capable of figuring out how to hook up some cameras. Or hiring a few minions to do it for him.

Hopeless
2012-02-14, 04:10 PM
Doriana is uncertain that cutting off the view screen will do any good (when it happens).
I would say that you at least initially need to be able to see the victim in real time.
So if Palpatine wanted to force choke batman from "out of sight", he'd need to get a camera within sight of him, and be looking at Batman's real-time image.

Its also dependent on Batman being actually in costume since we c ould actually have Superman posing as him when Palpatine strikes...

Assuming of course Palpatine doesn't just recruit him since he is capable of persuading people but in this case he would need to know Batman's true identity to be able to force choke him and the Emperor isn't the sort to show his hand so it would be a case of who finds out about the other first and then what they do about it...

Palpatine's habit is to use his "apprentice" to bring them out into the open so he can evaluate whether he can make use of them or as shown in the comic series dispose of them subtly unless we're talking the new animated series then he's a little on the too obvious someone is leaking way too much information to the bad guys and that would tip off Batman who after all being only human would be the last person palpatine would consider a threat but then in this thread its him versus the Bat so it really comes down to who can get the drop on the other and given the current guidelines Palpatine would win if he could keep his abilities a secret and if Bats figures it out I suspect it might be a case of both being taken out to prevent him losing.

Anyway over to you.

ThePhantasm
2012-02-14, 04:15 PM
hahahaha

Batman. Of course Batman.

Axolotl
2012-02-14, 04:16 PM
-snip-Yeah but while Palpatine certainly could defeat Batmanthis way it relies on him knowing everything about Batman and being dedicated to killing him as efficiently as possible, while Batman is completely ignorant about Palpatine. In which yes Palpatine wins but under those conditions Hobo with a Shotgun would win.

Anteros
2012-02-15, 03:10 PM
Meh, its one thing for him to synthesize something that already exists on his world, its another thing for him to literally recreate an entire element that doesnt currently exist that protects against this specific thing that he has never encountered before. As for dropping smoke, the whole point of this is this is palpatines first real strike. He hasnt used force powers openly yet. Batman doesnt know about them, he doesnt know what they can do, what the limits are, or what palpatine is doing. All he knows is his latest supervillain has setup a fairly standard viewscreen gloating session, when suddenly he cant breathe. He would likely try to do a number of things, like think he is under a chemical attack and put on a filter mask, or head for the nearest exit. Meanwhile palpatine is not giving out information on what is happening to him, he has cameras everywhere to maintain his visual contact with batman, and in 30 seconds or less, batman has blacked out.

I would imagine that he would feel his throat being crushed. Besides, he's dealt with psionics hundreds of times before. It's obviously not an automatic win button against him.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-15, 03:34 PM
If Palpatine can use the Force than the Force must be a thing brought into the DC universe.

Batman's trained in most forms of martial arts and is well-enough versed in mysticism to go up against the demon Etrigan, Morgan LeFay, and Ras al Ghul.

Batman's capabilities are directly tied to how much is available in the given setting. If it's a more gritty, Nolan-style universe, than he has the best technology realistically possible and knows how to use it. If it's more superpowered ala DCAU, than Batman has an arsenal of weapons ranging from large quantities of missiles to freeze bombs capable of freezing a giant space abomination. If it's as diverse and ridiculous as Brave and the Bold, Batman is capable of astral projection, outthinking telepaths and mentalists, breaking pretty much any sort of mind control, and even beating an omnipotent Joker by tricking Joker to go inside of his mind and beating him there.

If Palpatine brings the Force to this universe, it won't take long for Batman to master the Force and become a powerful Jedi in addition to everything else long before Palpatine even gets a shot at the Dark Jedi Knight.

Palpatine? Please. Batman's already thought of at least a dozen ways to end him and counter anything Palpatine throws at him.

Chess435
2012-02-15, 04:01 PM
We really need to have an Empire vs. DC Universe thread.


Also, is Batman allowed to watch Star Wars? :smallwink:

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-15, 04:03 PM
We really need to have an Empire vs. DC Universe thread.

I might be wrong since I don't know much about EU, but my prediction for that one is...

Darkseid wins, perhaps with some Lantern Corps on the side for good measure.

Axolotl
2012-02-15, 04:08 PM
I might be wrong since I don't know much about EU, but my prediction for that one is...

Darkseid wins, perhaps with some Lantern Corps on the side for good measure.Uhh, he's kinda too dead to do that. Unless we're counting the post-reboot universe. In which case I think they have Jenny Quantum who can just unmake the Empire by thinking it so DC wins.

Devonix
2012-02-16, 08:22 AM
Really I would just consider Palpatine something like Ra's Al Gul with super powers. A threat but without the empire not the biggest dog in the fight.

Also Empire vs DCU... DCU by a long shot. Not even a united DCU there are various seperate empires in the DC that could take on the empire

Also folks remember Batman has beaten Daleks. :smallamused:

thubby
2012-02-16, 08:38 AM
Also folks remember Batman has beaten Daleks. :smallamused:

what?!
when? how? why?

Devonix
2012-02-16, 09:11 AM
what?!
when? how? why?

We've never seen an actual battle though Batman does keep a Dalek shell in his extra terrestrial science vault in the Batcave.

Devonix
2012-02-16, 09:12 AM
Doctor who comics used to be published by DC so thats the easiest explination.

Tectonic Robot
2012-02-16, 09:14 AM
If Palpatine brings the Force to this universe, it won't take long for Batman to master the Force and become a powerful Jedi in addition to everything else long before Palpatine even gets a shot at the Dark Jedi Knight.

Palpatine? Please. Batman's already thought of at least a dozen ways to end him and counter anything Palpatine throws at him.

Pffffft. Batman becoming a jedi. Pffffft. That's hilarious.

Yeah, I gotta go with Batman. Palpatine is... yeah, gunna go with Bats.

Devonix
2012-02-16, 09:18 AM
my biggest worry is just how is Batman gonna stop Palpy without killing him. Stopping Palpatine isn't impossible for Bats. Doing so with non leathal ordinance ect and keeping him down is a bit tougher.

Lamech
2012-02-17, 01:27 AM
Thats really all we need for my plan to work. If palpatine could be anywhere withing a couple kilometers of his batman deathtrap, that is a wide range to safely hide in while he force chokes batman to death. Tell me, is there ever evidence of a force choke when he CANT see his target? Or any force ability at all really.Force Storms I believe? (Of course, its from the EU.)

Lord Raziere
2012-02-17, 01:31 AM
Also folks remember Batman has beaten Daleks. :smallamused:

What? No. No.

I am officially tired with all the Batman-hype. Batman is now officially, in my personal Discontinuity of Reality. He does not exist. Not in my reality.

Devonix
2012-02-17, 06:18 AM
What? No. No.

I am officially tired with all the Batman-hype. Batman is now officially, in my personal Discontinuity of Reality. He does not exist. Not in my reality.


Hey now I'm all for people to stop with the whole Batman + Preptime beats all and the Batgod nonsense.

For one I'm tired of people saying that Batman can beat Superman when Every Damn time they've fought Batman's ended up seriously injured or in the hospital and Supes has been fine.

Batman has a Dalek armor casing in his trophy room. Maby it was from an adventure with the Doctor I don't know, but beating a Dalek isn't impossible given the level of tech in the DCU, Hell Captain Jack blew up several with a clothing defabricator. Ace beat one with a baseball bat.

Hopeless
2012-02-17, 06:21 AM
So all Bats has to do is ring George Lucas and persuade him to release another edition where Palpatine has a chronic fear of Bats which prevents him using his force powers and leaves him as paralysed with fear as the scarecrow was at the end of his first episode in Batman the Animated Series?

And all he needs is a mobile phone, a bluetooth adaptor and of course Bruce Wayne...

thubby
2012-02-17, 07:10 AM
Hey now I'm all for people to stop with the whole Batman + Preptime beats all and the Batgod nonsense.

how is it nonsense when he's literally beaten up gods? seriously.

Devonix
2012-02-17, 08:04 AM
how is it nonsense when he's literally beaten up gods? seriously.

It is when people talk about him beating them in physical confrontations. And not in portraying an indominable will and strength of spirit. or stratiegic mind. Which is how he actually beats such things.

Also Batman's a good fighter but geeze people he's barely in the top 10 of the best non powered fighters in the DCU

The Glyphstone
2012-02-17, 08:06 AM
I'm pretty sure Bats could beat Palpatine if it came down to fisticuffs. The hard part is getting him there.

Geddoe
2012-02-17, 02:08 PM
how is it nonsense when he's literally beaten up gods? seriously.

Possibly because it is only through plot armor for the most popular character. The fact of the matter is that any serious confrontation where Superman and Batman are facing each other with intent to harm should end with Batman dead or incapacitated, as Superman can basically hear Batman, wherever he is, and moves so fast that Batman can not detect his movements. Any other outcome is just pandering to fans of Batman.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-17, 04:47 PM
Possibly because it is only through plot armor for the most popular character. The fact of the matter is that any serious confrontation where Superman and Batman are facing each other with intent to harm should end with Batman dead or incapacitated, as Superman can basically hear Batman, wherever he is, and moves so fast that Batman can not detect his movements. Any other outcome is just pandering to fans of Batman.

Sorry, you're thinking of "a man dressed like a bat," not Batman. The ACTUAL fact of the matter is that each version of Batman is on the higher power tier of their respective universes while simultaneously being a mere mortal. We're not just talking about a rich boy with batarangs and a cape, we're talking about a man who traveled the world and studied for years to deal with any possible threat that comes his way, who devotes all his time not fighting crime and threats to developing ways to fight new crime and threats. The very second the term "kryptonian" or "Superman" became public knowledge, you can bet Batman had a decent sized order of Kryptonite already in the mail. If magic exists in the setting, Batman studies it, more specifically how to stop it. Batman always beats Superman in a straight-up fight because it's not the powers you have, it's how intelligently you use said powers. Batman doesn't have or need superpowers, he's already compensated for the lack of them in twice as many situations as you can think of.

Mando Knight
2012-02-17, 04:52 PM
The very second the term "kryptonian" or "Superman" became public knowledge, you can bet Batman had a decent sized order of Kryptonite already in the mail.

Fact: Batman carries Luthor's old Kryptonite ring in a lead-lined pouch on his utility belt just in case Supes goes rogue again.

Axolotl
2012-02-17, 04:59 PM
Batman always beats Superman in a straight-up fight because it's not the powers you have, it's how intelligently you use said powers.When? Seriously when has he beaten Superman? The only fight between them I've read is The Dark Knight Returns, where Batman has prep-time and allies and still gets easily beaten by Superman.

Geddoe
2012-02-17, 05:43 PM
snip
Sorry, but Batman is just a very skilled human dressed as a bat. The fact of the matter is that if Batman and Superman wanted to do each other serious harm, Superman can move so fast the Batman would not even be able to reach the kryptonite ring in his belt before Superman's fist exploded out of the back of Batman's skull.

Any other result is basically "because plot".

I'm reminded of a page from a comic I saw:

Batman and Superman are in the desert looking at a device(presumably a bomb). It goes active, and Superman says "I'm getting you out of here." Batman responds. "No you -" panel shift and Batman is miles away and Superman is nowhere in sight. Batman lamely finishes "- aren't." In any situation involving a conflict between these two, Batman's only protection is plot, not any planning or action on his part.

Traab
2012-02-17, 05:45 PM
I dont care if his bat suit is MADE of kryptonite, in a true to the death match between the two, batman dies before he knows the fight started. Even ignoring the psychotic power levels superman attained over the course of his life span, basic faster than a speeding bullet superman means he is faster than the human eye can see, and able to remove batmans skull before he even has time to twitch towards his kryptonite ring pouch. Even if batman was the greatest martial artist to ever exist, you cant block or dodge whats coming at you faster than the human body can react. Superman could start his punch at the opposite side of a football field and still have embedded his fist in bruces skull before batman realizes he moved.

Look, I get it, "hes the goddamn batman" but his obsessive compulsive plans and counter plans for every contingency just dont mean he automatically wins. The only reason he is more than just the financial backer and watchtower research specialist in the justice league is plot armor. Batmans actual tier is bad guys with no or minor super powers like his own rogues gallery in gotham. He just is not naturally on the level of darkseids or braniacs, or other interstellar powerhouses. Plot armor is the only reason he survives, and laughable plot armor is why he wins.

Tavar
2012-02-17, 05:55 PM
I think the closest that Batman has ever gotten to beating Superman is when his plan for beating Supes was used(along with the plans for beating the other league members) by Ras Al Gul. And I'm not sure how effective that was: I think it dealt with Red Kryptonite, and hoping that the random affliction would be severe enough.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-17, 06:18 PM
I dont care if his bat suit is MADE of kryptonite, in a true to the death match between the two, batman dies before he knows the fight started. Even ignoring the psychotic power levels superman attained over the course of his life span, basic faster than a speeding bullet superman means he is faster than the human eye can see, and able to remove batmans skull before he even has time to twitch towards his kryptonite ring pouch. Even if batman was the greatest martial artist to ever exist, you cant block or dodge whats coming at you faster than the human body can react. Superman could start his punch at the opposite side of a football field and still have embedded his fist in bruces skull before batman realizes he moved.


That's all very well in an abstract scenario, but the simple fact of the matter is that Superman cannot and never has managed to bring himself to take those kind of steps. Sure, in a battle between Batman and Sociopathic murderer superman, batman is dead before he knows it, but in the majority of such confrontations between them, Batman wins because he knows how Superman will act (and that it won't devolve into a one-hit-superfast-kill at the first sign of conflict).

Batman beats Superman on a mental level first and foremost, essentially , plot armour is not the whole answer.

Tavar
2012-02-17, 06:25 PM
Actually, I remember a case where Batman did beat Superman now, in the sequels to the Dark Knight Returns. But, in that case, it was more Superman attacking Batman+Friends(Flash, Atom, and Green Arrow, at the very least), using repeated kryptonite based attacks, and Superman had come in order to talk, not to fight. At least, not initially.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-17, 06:43 PM
I wonder why Batman is the only character of his universe to invoke the level of antipathy he does- just an extreme form of Hype Backlash?

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-17, 06:45 PM
I wonder why Batman is the only character of his universe to invoke the level of antipathy he does- just an extreme form of Hype Backlash?

Really? I always got the impression that Superman attracted a lot more antipathy than Batman, by a long way. Of course, the antics of justice-league level Batman do cause a number of people problems, but I certainly don't believe that he's the only DC universe character who people have problems with, not even amongst their major characters.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-17, 07:36 PM
Possibly because it is only through plot armor for the most popular character. The fact of the matter is that any serious confrontation where Superman and Batman are facing each other with intent to harm should end with Batman dead or incapacitated, as Superman can basically hear Batman, wherever he is, and moves so fast that Batman can not detect his movements. Any other outcome is just pandering to fans of Batman.

I remember a cartoon episode of Batman fighting Superman because Superman was being controlled by Poison Ivy. Batman was in power armor that had Kryptonite powered weapons (or something) and was pulling out missiles, electrified nets, and all sorts of crazy junk while Superman smacked him and Robin around (similarly equipped to Batman). Finally Batman lured Superman into some pesticide factory and killed the spores. Technical victory for Batman though the story ended with him having broken ribs and I think a broken arm.

Traab
2012-02-17, 07:47 PM
I wonder why Batman is the only character of his universe to invoke the level of antipathy he does- just an extreme form of Hype Backlash?

I dont have a great deal of antipathy for him, my annoyance is aimed at the batman fanboys who insist that batman could beat anyone and anything in the dc or marvel universe, "so long as he has time to plan" All that means in the comics or cartoons is that batman is given carte blanche to create a deus ex machina to save the day because he is like macguyver merged with chuck norris and can build anything and beat anything up.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-17, 07:52 PM
It's all a lot less weird when you realise he's just an undiagnosed marvel style mutant. He's at the very least got a low grade healing factor. Generally above human stamina, durability and so on are likely. Chances are, his mental prowess probably owes at least a little to that, too.

Of course, as that's only true in my personal fanon, it probably doesn't help the discussion much.

Omergideon
2012-02-17, 08:55 PM
In my opinion (and I admit I think Supes is the best hero in DC, and that Batman is so overhyped I am getting sick of him) in a Supes vs Bats brawl, unless Batman has got every single thing in his favour, allies, tech AND a lot of luck he won't even realise the fight has started. If he has that I give him minutes at best. Based on their listed powers and abilities and shown feats this is what I think.

Not important, but just wanted to say it.


But in a Batman vs Palpatine scenario......lets look at several ideas.

1) The 2 get dumped buck naked in a gladiator ring and both know they have to beat each other to death (etc). In this case bats is a fit man. Palpatine is a decent shape 70's+ man with a vast array of superpowers including precognition, telekinesis, shooting lightning, the ability to enhance his physique to olympic gymnast levels and so on. Batman should not win in this case. Ever. Regardless. It should not happen.

2) They have normal gear in the same scenario is 1. So Batman gets a lot of cool gadgets and maybe (maybe) the batmobile. Palpatine gets a lightSabre. Again Batman dies. even if he gets into the batmobile Palps can just throw it around like a toy. With ease. By the stats this should happen.

3) Palpatine is dumped into Gotham City with no tools, and Batman knows nothing of him. Well in this case Palpatine is a careful planner. he is likely to make no moves for anything until he knows some more about the situation of the city and beyond. He will go for power of course, but assuming he makes killing Batman a part of it he will go slow. With his array of powers he is physically and powerfully the top dog in Gotham really. On a personal level with precog and his abilities he is capable of a 1 to 1 victory against most people. And most groups. I see him engineering a fairly successful takeover of the city's crime rings whilst eventually running for mayor. Remember about palps, he has the tech know how to make a Lightsabre, use SW computers etc. Even without much skill his tech is far and beyond above Gotham as a whole. Creating a false ID and taking the time to take over both the criminal and political lead of Gotham (and avoiding detection) is something he is proven as capable of. Once in this position he can simply meet Batman by the signal without suspicion and lightsabre him through the head when he is not looking.

Now Bats could become suspicious and suspect Palpatine of something. But I do not see how he could stop it. He is working blind to Palpatines abilities. Bat's planning is not effective without data. He has none on what Palps can do. If Batman suspects a weak old man, and gets a psychic ninja with a laser sword, he will be taken off guard and lose.

4) Bat's knows about Palpatine's powers before it all starts. In this Case Batman has a chance. He needs to find Palps in a public role. He calls in favours, uses his tech etc and a high powered sniper rifle that fires small missiles. Then he wins. As soon as we get into a 1 on 1 fight in sight of each other Palps SHOULD win. He has telekinesis for one, combined with precognition and physical enhancement at minimum. This should mean an instant win against a single person with no superpowers at all.


So yeah. Palpatine should win in every case. Every case, unless Batman uses a superpowered friend like the Flash or Zatanna. Or he goes all out and throws a killsat beam at Palpatine.

Devonix
2012-02-17, 10:01 PM
Fact: Batman carries Luthor's old Kryptonite ring in a lead-lined pouch on his utility belt just in case Supes goes rogue again.

Fact Batman carries Luthor's old Kryptonite ring in a lead lined pouch on his utility belt... Because Superman took it from Luthor and GAVE it to Batman for two reasons.
1. safe keeping
2. Superman has failsafes set up by himself in case he gets mind controlled or turns evil. Giving Batman kryptonite was one such failsafe.

Also its not in the lead pouch so that he can catch Superman by suprise. Its in the lead pouch because otherwise Batman would die of Kryptonite radiation poisoning.

Mando Knight
2012-02-17, 10:16 PM
Also its not in the lead pouch so that he can catch Superman by suprise. Its in the lead pouch because otherwise Batman would die of Kryptonite radiation poisoning.
The pouch serves two purposes:
1.) Keeps Batman from getting Kryptonite-cancer
2.) Allows Batman to continue to partner up with Superman (and be ready for possible mind control attacks) without crippling the Man of Steel.

Devonix
2012-02-17, 10:28 PM
Batman always beats Superman in a straight-up fight because it's not the powers you have, it's how intelligently you use said powers. Batman doesn't have or need superpowers, he's already compensated for the lack of them in twice as many situations as you can think of.

This is a strange definition of allways where it really means never right? Every confrontation they've had has ended up with Batman in need of severe medical attention and Superman perfectly fine.

But what really gets on my nerves is the whole Using powers intelligently thing. Superman is one of the most practiced and calculating individuals in comics period when it comes to using his powers.

Lets take Heat vison for instance. He's trained so long and so hard in its use. that he can
1.Use it to perform micro surgery
2. control the exact temperature down to decimal point from fully non lethal all they way to hotter than the burning core of a star
3 focus it from smaller than the width of an atom to wider than an entire planet
4. bounce it off reflective satalites to hit a target on the other side of the planet and burn a message into a wall in perfect cursive

and thats just one of the many of his powers he is constantly shown practicing and fine tuning.

He's also one of the formost scientific minds on the planet. has forgotten more about robitics than most scientists have learned in their lives.

as superman he has many advanced degrees and the equivalent of several doctorates from his years of study in bio chemestry, programing ect.

Superman's brain is better at processing, reproducing, and applying vast amounts information while Batman is better at abstract problem solving, deductive reason, and battle strategum

In an early issue of Busiek's run, he was found reading two books SIMULTANEOUSLY

In an issue of Superman/Batman they touched upon this... Superman is able to draw an MRI quality photo of brain from a single glance while Batman is able to identify a computer virus and it's orgin with in said brain.

Devonix
2012-02-17, 10:32 PM
The pouch serves two purposes:
1.) Keeps Batman from getting Kryptonite-cancer
2.) Allows Batman to continue to partner up with Superman (and be ready for possible mind control attacks) without crippling the Man of Steel.

quite right Mando.
Also realizing that post sounded a little angry. Its just that most people seem to think that the whole Batman having kryptonite thing is Batman's secret weapon, when its really Superman's secret weapon against himself.

Traab
2012-02-17, 10:44 PM
In my opinion (and I admit I think Supes is the best hero in DC, and that Batman is so overhyped I am getting sick of him) in a Supes vs Bats brawl, unless Batman has got every single thing in his favour, allies, tech AND a lot of luck he won't even realise the fight has started. If he has that I give him minutes at best. Based on their listed powers and abilities and shown feats this is what I think.

Not important, but just wanted to say it.


But in a Batman vs Palpatine scenario......lets look at several ideas.

1) The 2 get dumped buck naked in a gladiator ring and both know they have to beat each other to death (etc). In this case bats is a fit man. Palpatine is a decent shape 70's+ man with a vast array of superpowers including precognition, telekinesis, shooting lightning, the ability to enhance his physique to olympic gymnast levels and so on. Batman should not win in this case. Ever. Regardless. It should not happen.

2) They have normal gear in the same scenario is 1. So Batman gets a lot of cool gadgets and maybe (maybe) the batmobile. Palpatine gets a lightSabre. Again Batman dies. even if he gets into the batmobile Palps can just throw it around like a toy. With ease. By the stats this should happen.

3) Palpatine is dumped into Gotham City with no tools, and Batman knows nothing of him. Well in this case Palpatine is a careful planner. he is likely to make no moves for anything until he knows some more about the situation of the city and beyond. He will go for power of course, but assuming he makes killing Batman a part of it he will go slow. With his array of powers he is physically and powerfully the top dog in Gotham really. On a personal level with precog and his abilities he is capable of a 1 to 1 victory against most people. And most groups. I see him engineering a fairly successful takeover of the city's crime rings whilst eventually running for mayor. Remember about palps, he has the tech know how to make a Lightsabre, use SW computers etc. Even without much skill his tech is far and beyond above Gotham as a whole. Creating a false ID and taking the time to take over both the criminal and political lead of Gotham (and avoiding detection) is something he is proven as capable of. Once in this position he can simply meet Batman by the signal without suspicion and lightsabre him through the head when he is not looking.

Now Bats could become suspicious and suspect Palpatine of something. But I do not see how he could stop it. He is working blind to Palpatines abilities. Bat's planning is not effective without data. He has none on what Palps can do. If Batman suspects a weak old man, and gets a psychic ninja with a laser sword, he will be taken off guard and lose.

4) Bat's knows about Palpatine's powers before it all starts. In this Case Batman has a chance. He needs to find Palps in a public role. He calls in favours, uses his tech etc and a high powered sniper rifle that fires small missiles. Then he wins. As soon as we get into a 1 on 1 fight in sight of each other Palps SHOULD win. He has telekinesis for one, combined with precognition and physical enhancement at minimum. This should mean an instant win against a single person with no superpowers at all.


So yeah. Palpatine should win in every case. Every case, unless Batman uses a superpowered friend like the Flash or Zatanna. Or he goes all out and throws a killsat beam at Palpatine.


The problem here is batmans strict no killing policy. He just cant bring himself to go for the kill. He couldnt even bring himself to kill the ^%$&$% JOKER when he shot and paralyzed batgirl! So unless the final showdown involves batman walking past a set of video screens showing the graphic torture, mutilation, and murder of everyone batman/bruce has ever cared about, and ends up with watching palpatine kill puppies by cramming them down nuns throats till both die, I just dont see him going for anything but a knockout or restrain attempt. Which would end in a messy death for batman considering the raw lethality of palpatine when he gets going.

That being said, there is one possibility for batman to win here. Palpatines precog abilities would make a stealth attack unlikely to succeed. But if batman knows about that ability, he could try to overwhelm it. Attack from so many angles and in so many ways, that palpatine just cant block them all. Mix lethal with nonlethal and its likely palpatine would let the knockout gas connect because its better than letting the razor sharp c4 batarangs get past his lightsaber.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-17, 10:52 PM
Sorry, but Batman is just a very skilled human dressed as a bat. The fact of the matter is that if Batman and Superman wanted to do each other serious harm, Superman can move so fast the Batman would not even be able to reach the kryptonite ring in his belt before Superman's fist exploded out of the back of Batman's skull.

It doesn't matter that Superman is faster. He's predictable. Before Superman has even started to think about moving, Batman has already taken the necessary steps, withdrawing whatever kryptonite sample, using bat-gadgets to screw with Superman's senses, and he's already moving in the most efficient method to dodge Superman's initial lunge, and that's if he doesn't just decide to take the first punch to get the kryptonite in range.

Batman is more than just a skilled human. In a world filled with aliens, gods, mutants, and other such threats to the world, humans can have champions too. Yes, for Batman, it took a huge trust fund and years of studying and martial discipline, but there's a reason that he intimidates even superheroes. He already has contingency plans to battle any character in the DC universe, superpowered or not.

In any Superman VS Batman, Batman always wins. But there's a good reason these two are allies the majority of the time. For the same reason that Bale's Batman admired Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight, Batman has a lot of respect for the Man of Steel, seeing how he is a paragon of justice and human decency (even if he's not human), but Batman still has contingency plans to fight him and every other superpowered being.



1) The 2 get dumped buck naked in a gladiator ring and both know they have to beat each other to death (etc). In this case bats is a fit man. Palpatine is a decent shape 70's+ man with a vast array of superpowers including precognition, telekinesis, shooting lightning, the ability to enhance his physique to olympic gymnast levels and so on. Batman should not win in this case. Ever. Regardless. It should not happen.

Agreed. It should never happen. I'm not sure what Palpatine's reaction would be, but if Batman were dropped into a gladiator-style arena, something that's happened plenty of times, his reaction wouldn't be to actually fight for real (and not just because he wouldn't kill no matter what), Batman would either outright refuse to fight or simply pretend to fight until he can Bat-jury-rig an escape, possibly taking Palpatine with him as the two team up to break out of whoever captured them in the first place. If necessary, Batman would throw the fight and pretend to be dead/KO'd just to escape.


2) They have normal gear in the same scenario is 1. So Batman gets a lot of cool gadgets and maybe (maybe) the batmobile. Palpatine gets a lightSabre. Again Batman dies. even if he gets into the batmobile Palps can just throw it around like a toy. With ease. By the stats this should happen.

Yes, because Batman would get into the big obvious Batmobile. If he actually had to fight Palpatine with a lightsaber, a few bat-grenades should do the trick. What? You cut them in half? That's okay, they explode anyway. There's also the remote-control batarangs which pass the target than swerve around and go after Palpatine anyway, but I'm pretty sure those wouldn't do much.



3) Palpatine is dumped into Gotham City with no tools, and Batman knows nothing of him. Well in this case Palpatine is a careful planner. he is likely to make no moves for anything until he knows some more about the situation of the city and beyond. He will go for power of course, but assuming he makes killing Batman a part of it he will go slow. With his array of powers he is physically and powerfully the top dog in Gotham really. On a personal level with precog and his abilities he is capable of a 1 to 1 victory against most people. And most groups. I see him engineering a fairly successful takeover of the city's crime rings whilst eventually running for mayor. Remember about palps, he has the tech know how to make a Lightsabre, use SW computers etc. Even without much skill his tech is far and beyond above Gotham as a whole. Creating a false ID and taking the time to take over both the criminal and political lead of Gotham (and avoiding detection) is something he is proven as capable of. Once in this position he can simply meet Batman by the signal without suspicion and lightsabre him through the head when he is not looking.

Now Bats could become suspicious and suspect Palpatine of something. But I do not see how he could stop it. He is working blind to Palpatines abilities. Bat's planning is not effective without data. He has none on what Palps can do. If Batman suspects a weak old man, and gets a psychic ninja with a laser sword, he will be taken off guard and lose.

If Palpatine tries for a power-grab, criminally or politically, he's already hit Batman's radar. World's greatest detective. By the time Palpatine makes his "move," Batman already knows his height, weight, age, build, powers, friends, contacts, power set, weaknesses, favorite ice cream flavor, etcetera. He's called in mystic contacts, some of his more advanced extra-terrestrial buddies, and done research on an interdimensional phenomenon in the area. If Palpatine really has brought the Force with him, Batman has located it, studied it, isolated the whole Midichlorian thing and either mastered it himself or found a counter. And if Palpatine tries to ambush him from the beginning, he's nothing new. "Psychic," "Ninja," and "Laser Sword" are already file tabs in his database.


So yeah. Palpatine should win in every case. Every case, unless Batman uses a superpowered friend like the Flash or Zatanna. Or he goes all out and throws a killsat beam at Palpatine.

I'll concede that Batman may call in some help, and if that disqualifies him for some reason, then so be it. (If it's Brave and the Bold then he'll probably team with a good Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker for good measure). Batman is only interested in stopping the threat to Gotham/the world, not in proving he's the goddamn Batman.

EDIT: Personal annoyance of mine: people insisting in versus threads that it HAS to be to the death, and then citing a superhero's "No Kill" policy as a detriment to their success. As if a superhero never takes on individuals far more powerful than themselves, wins, and then imprisons said individuals in prisons specifically designed to hold them. Granted, said prisons only hold until the character's next scheduled appearance where they break out, but that shouldn't count against said superhero.

Traab
2012-02-17, 11:19 PM
It doesn't matter that Superman is faster. He's predictable. Before Superman has even started to think about moving, Batman has already taken the necessary steps, withdrawing whatever kryptonite sample, using bat-gadgets to screw with Superman's senses, and he's already moving in the most efficient method to dodge Superman's initial lunge, and that's if he doesn't just decide to take the first punch to get the kryptonite in range.

Batman is more than just a skilled human. In a world filled with aliens, gods, mutants, and other such threats to the world, humans can have champions too. Yes, for Batman, it took a huge trust fund and years of studying and martial discipline, but there's a reason that he intimidates even superheroes. He already has contingency plans to battle any character in the DC universe, superpowered or not.

In any Superman VS Batman, Batman always wins. But there's a good reason these two are allies the majority of the time. For the same reason that Bale's Batman admired Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight, Batman has a lot of respect for the Man of Steel, seeing how he is a paragon of justice and human decency (even if he's not human), but Batman still has contingency plans to fight him and every other superpowered being.

You cant dodge a hypersonic fist as a human. You just CANT. A human brain, no matter how well trained, just is not capable of sending signals fast enough to compensate for that. It is biologically impossible. I remember watching the justice league cartoons. In most scenarios where batman is part of the squad taking down some inter dimensional/galactic threat, he spends 90% of his time beating up the mooks, while superman and the other ultra strong heroes duke it out with the big boss. He will act as a distraction, he will miraculously survive things that should kill him, he may even setup the final victory, but it usually isnt him striking the winning blow.

Take the big darkseid battle in metropolis, where superman makes that big world of cardboard speech, (look it up on youtube if you havent seen it, its pretty good) Batman really doesnt contribute much. His biggest thing is he manages to survive an omega beam attack by doing a lot of flips and shoving a parademon into its path. At one point he jumps on darkseids back like a toddler trying to get a piggyback ride, and get hurled like the bug he is.


Agreed. It should never happen. I'm not sure what Palpatine's reaction would be, but if Batman were dropped into a gladiator-style arena, something that's happened plenty of times, his reaction wouldn't be to actually fight for real (and not just because he wouldn't kill no matter what), Batman would either outright refuse to fight or simply pretend to fight until he can Bat-jury-rig an escape, possibly taking Palpatine with him as the two team up to break out of whoever captured them in the first place. If necessary, Batman would throw the fight and pretend to be dead/KO'd just to escape.

Admittedly, neither one of the contestants would be very interested in fighting each other under these circumstances. Maybe if it was setup as a contest with prizes both would actually want. Palpatine is not a team player. Its hard to fake a death caused by excessive amounts of hate fueled lightning coursing through your body. And your statement of him somehow managing to find a way to escape is just bringing in deus ex batmanica into things. "Give him time to plan and he is unstoppable!" Nope. He is in an arena sealed tight and the only way out is over the corpse of your opponent. No panels to hack into, no doors to break down, the walls are blast proof, and there is a sealed dome keeping you from climbing out. No escape, it isnt an option. Fight or die.


Yes, because Batman would get into the big obvious Batmobile. If he actually had to fight Palpatine with a lightsaber, a few bat-grenades should do the trick. What? You cut them in half? That's okay, they explode anyway. There's also the remote-control batarangs which pass the target than swerve around and go after Palpatine anyway, but I'm pretty sure those wouldn't do much.

Yeah, except for his precog that would tell him to force control whatever explosives batman throws at him and he keeps them from getting anywhere near him. Remember him hurling rather large senate seat platforms around like frisbees while he cackles like a creepy schoolgirl? I know I do.


If Palpatine tries for a power-grab, criminally or politically, he's already hit Batman's radar. World's greatest detective. By the time Palpatine makes his "move," Batman already knows his height, weight, age, build, powers, friends, contacts, power set, weaknesses, favorite ice cream flavor, etcetera. He's called in mystic contacts, some of his more advanced extra-terrestrial buddies, and done research on an interdimensional phenomenon in the area. If Palpatine really has brought the Force with him, Batman has located it, studied it, isolated the whole Midichlorian thing and either mastered it himself or found a counter. And if Palpatine tries to ambush him from the beginning, he's nothing new. "Psychic," "Ninja," and "Laser Sword" are already file tabs in his database.

See, now this is just silly. Batman isnt some omniscient god who knows everything about everything that happens as it happens. This particular scenario is far enough out of the bathtub that its either very low on his list of possibilities, or not even there. He may know that palpatine is grabbing power, but until palpatine is visibly using his abilities, batman only sees another middle age/elderly man becoming a power in gotham. He has no idea that killing batman is palpatines eventual goal, he has no real reason to stop him until he actually catches him breaking some laws.

Though admittedly, taking over the various crime rings is a big risk, its still possible to stay under the radar. Working through proxies of proxies he can stay in the shadows long enough for his purposes. Palpatine isnt exactly a newb at long term strategic planning and staying under the radar. For god sake, he fooled an entire freaking ORDER of psychic warriors whose nearly entire purpose is to hunt down and kill anyone like him.




I'll concede that Batman may call in some help, and if that disqualifies him for some reason, then so be it. (If it's Brave and the Bold then he'll probably team with a good Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker for good measure). Batman is only interested in stopping the threat to Gotham/the world, not in proving he's the goddamn Batman.

Meh, he cant call in help, or else we start escalating and counter escalating until its the entire galactic empire versus the dc universe and batman/palpatine will likely never happen. This is a contest between the two of them only.

Axolotl
2012-02-18, 04:48 AM
The problem here is batmans strict no killing policy. He just cant bring himself to go for the kill.Darkseid would probably disagree.

Devonix
2012-02-18, 05:19 AM
Darkseid would probably disagree.

THIS People need to realize that the whole Not killing thing is because the heroes can take down the villans with non lethal force.

Both Batman and Superman and many others will and have killed when there was no alternative.

There is a difference between killing and executing someone.

Batman doesn't kill the Joker because it isn't his place. Killing him would be an act of vengence and murder. If the state decided to execute Joker for his crimes Batman would have no problem dragging him to the electric chair personally. As long as the citizens of Gotham decide that the joker doesn't deserve death then Batman's gotta comply.

...though in reality the Joker's sorta died in a few confrontations with Batman... he just comes back.

Devonix
2012-02-18, 05:28 AM
When it comes to either killing the villan or letting innocents die the heroe always kills the villan.

but thats only when there is no alternative, Superheroes on the other hand tend to get the chance to Take A Third Option. No not linking to TVTROPES.

Traab
2012-02-18, 11:35 AM
Darkseid would probably disagree.

Except that didnt kill him. Apparently, being "mortally wounded" still means darkseid was capable of mocking the hell out of superman in a big showdown while being so powerful physical damage is useless against him. Even when his body died, his spirit was still there continuing the fight, so really, I dont think that could count as "killing" darkseid. I also fail to see the reasonable scenario where batman would be pushed that far in a fight against palpatine.

ThePhantasm
2012-02-18, 12:20 PM
Look at how easily Palpatine was defeated. Vader picked him up and chucked him in a pit. Palpatine was unable to consider that he might be wrong about Vader's loyalty. In some sense he underestimated Vader.

Villains frequently underestimate Batman. All Batman has to do is outsmart Palpatine, and defeat him through some means Palpatine doesn't expect. In a straight up fight, of course Batman would die. I don't think Batman would be loony enough to try a straight up fight, though.


I dont have a great deal of antipathy for him, my annoyance is aimed at the batman fanboys who insist that batman could beat anyone and anything in the dc or marvel universe, "so long as he has time to plan" All that means in the comics or cartoons is that batman is given carte blanche to create a deus ex machina to save the day because he is like macguyver merged with chuck norris and can build anything and beat anything up.

As a Batman fan, I usually say the "so long as he has time to plan" thing with a measure of levity. Batman is typically equipped with plot armor and such, yes. He is the good guy, after all. It is similar to Sherlock Holmes' ability to make miraculous deductions - Arthur Conan Doyle mocked the absurdity of such deductions in his own parodies of Sherlock. Being prepared and a master strategist / tactician etc. is part of who Batman is. Batman's entire life is about being driven to overcome evil and being prepared for anything. It may be an unbelievable characteristic at times, but it is part of the character.

Emmerask
2012-02-18, 04:53 PM
Batman is only a human being, granted he has above avg abilities, very good reflexes, above avg stamina etc and some very cool toys but still only human.

Palpatine it depends if we are talking EU he is practically a god, the "fight" wouldnīt last a second until batmans brain implodes or he would become palpatines slave.
If we are talking none EU well then the fight would be a lot closer but I would still give the win to palpatine if we are not talking an absolutely rigged fight in batmans favor (giving batman weeks of planning while palpatine has none for example).

Anteros
2012-02-18, 09:22 PM
Palpatine got beaten by being slowly picked up and tossed into a pit. He's not the unkillable god emperor you guys are making him out to be.

Traab
2012-02-18, 10:12 PM
Palpatine got beaten by being slowly picked up and tossed into a pit. He's not the unkillable god emperor you guys are making him out to be.

Yeah, and if we get palpatine when he was killed by vader we get a what, 80 year old man that hasnt had to fight in a decade or two? And it was a mutual kill against vader so its hardly a clear win. Im hoping for palpatine by the end of revenge of the sith. He had just managed to pull off his huge plan, he was highly skilled and powerful, still in excellent shape. I consider that his non EU peak. But hey, if you want palpatine at the end of return of the jedi, ill agree to that. But in exchange we get the bruce wayne from batman beyond.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-19, 02:05 AM
Yeah, and if we get palpatine when he was killed by vader we get a what, 80 year old man that hasnt had to fight in a decade or two? And it was a mutual kill against vader so its hardly a clear win. Im hoping for palpatine by the end of revenge of the sith. He had just managed to pull off his huge plan, he was highly skilled and powerful, still in excellent shape. I consider that his non EU peak. But hey, if you want palpatine at the end of return of the jedi, ill agree to that. But in exchange we get the bruce wayne from batman beyond.

To be fair its not like Palpantine hadn't already lived for at least hundreds of years before that. For some reason those 40 years were really hard on him. :smallamused:

Omergideon
2012-02-19, 10:08 AM
To be fair its not like Palpantine hadn't already lived for at least hundreds of years before that. For some reason those 40 years were really hard on him. :smallamused:

Ok, Palpatine is centuries old? When did this happen?

The Glyphstone
2012-02-19, 10:10 AM
His birthdate on Wookiepedia is listed as 82 BBY. Hardly centuries old.

Mutant Sheep
2012-02-19, 10:33 AM
See, now this is just silly. Batman isnt some omniscient god who knows everything about everything that happens as it happens. This particular scenario is far enough out of the bathtub that its either very low on his list of possibilities, or not even there.
I'm sorry, but I read that as "Battub". :smallbiggrin:

Weighing in as a Batman fanboy, Palpatine wins. Lightning hands and laser swords>batarang. Or Batcopter. Or even the Bat-spacejet. (But as soon as Batman gets hit by lightning, however we are watching this fight will have a big "ZAP" card put up in front of it, and the screen will freeze. :smallamused::smalltongue:)

Traab
2012-02-19, 10:45 AM
His birthdate on Wookiepedia is listed as 82 BBY. Hardly centuries old.

Yeah, I tried to decipher what that meant his life span was up till return of the jedi but I had no real point of reference to work with. So I guessed. Before he went super old and ugly, he appeared to be 50ish or so, and return of the jedi was what, 18 years later? So I just guesstimated he was in his 70s-80s. Either way, he was old, and most likely out of shape, as running a galactic empire doesnt leave much time for twirling around the training grounds.

One question, was palpatine still pretending not to be a sith to the general empire right up till the end? Or was it generally known he was a sith lord? I know one of the officers mouthed off to vader about his devotion to that sad old religion or whatever, but that may be because they knew he used to be a jedi.

Emmerask
2012-02-19, 11:03 AM
To be fair its not like Palpantine hadn't already lived for at least hundreds of years before that. For some reason those 40 years were really hard on him. :smallamused:

Well the face melting thing with powerful dark energy canīt be that good for your health I think ^^

So my general theory would be that this brought him actually to the brink of death and after that he had to use up a considerable amount of power to stay alive, thats why his powers became a lot less potent.

hamishspence
2012-02-19, 11:20 AM
There is a general theme of body damage from excess use of the Dark side in the EU.

Might be why Superpalpatine from Dark Empire can wield so much power- at the time, he was in a clone body which didn't have the damage that had been inflicted on his original body.

H Birchgrove
2012-02-19, 11:20 AM
The "Batman learns how to be a Jedi" alternative has already been mentioned, but I have my own twist on it:

Batman becomes Darth Sideous/Palpatine's Sith apprentice. Sooner or later, Darth Batman betrays Darth Sideous.

If that counts as a win for Batman or for Darth Sideous, well, that's up to debate. :smallamused:

hamishspence
2012-02-19, 11:23 AM
Luke tried that. He ended up losing his grip on the "light side" and having to be redeemed by his sister.

If Batman turns out when "translated to Star Wars terms" to have a low Force potential, he may be simply unable to attain Jedi-level powers.

Eric Tolle
2012-02-19, 02:01 PM
Meh, its one thing for him to synthesize something that already exists on his world, its another thing for him to literally recreate an entire element that doesnt currently exist that protects against this specific thing that he has never encountered before.

Which means he probably has a spare suit in a closet in the Batcave. He also has a plan for dealing with Force users, right next to his plans for dealing with Elminster and Benedict of Amber.

Batgod is ALWAYS prepared.


Yeah but while Palpatine certainly could defeat Batmanthis way it relies on him knowing everything about Batman and being dedicated to killing him as efficiently as possible, while Batman is completely ignorant about Palpatine.

Even if Batgod was ignorant of Palpatine, he would immediately deduce the situation and the powers of Palpatine as soon as he entered the warehouse, and drop a flash grenade that would blind Palpatine through the monitors while burning them out. Because Batgod is just that good.

Lord Raziere
2012-02-19, 02:36 PM
wow, I was going to post a rant about you thinking that batman is god a few days ago, but I decided against it since I considered that rude.

thanks for proving me right anyways, glad that we both agree that you think batman is god.

now to destroy your logic: if Batman gets to be god, so does Palpatine. Palpagod has already incorporated anything Batman does into his plan to conquer Earth. He already has twisted Batman's public image to be the "real" villain, and and has set up the situation so that all of Batman's assets and gadgets are destroyed or used up defeating other people.
Then he lightning shocks him from behind when Batman least expects it.

and now since both characters are God, it is pointless to argue anymore since you will get no where trying to argue which is "more godly" or whatever.

I'm going to bow out of this thread now, toodles. My job here is done.

Traab
2012-02-19, 02:55 PM
"The Devil's greatest accomplishment was convincing the world he didn't exist."

The reason why i posted this is because of how good a job palpatine did of convincing the entire galaxy that he wasnt a sith lord. People harp on batmans ability to think and plan and prepare for contingencies, but they seem to gloss over the fact that palpatine spent decades setting up a perfect takeover of the galaxy that succeeded He wasnt some big bad guy with grandiose plans that got thwarted at the last second, he pulled it off, and he did it so well that the previous government cheered him on as he took over. Palpatine, in other words, is also a master strategist.

Im not going to get into a whole debate over who is the better one, because that honestly isnt the point. The point is that just because batman is good at making plans doesnt mean palpatine will just be caught flat footed by anything more intricate than a back alley brawl. At the very least, palpatines ability to plan and prepare and work hidden behind the scenes until the final confrontation means a great deal of batmans natural planning advantage will be negated. Palpatines greatest strength is secrecy. he is able to remain hidden for as long as he wants, to work from behind the scenes in such a way as to never cause even a moments suspicion. Its altogether possible that batman wont discover the hidden power behind whoever is taking control of the city until he gets dragged before palpatine and the final battle takes place.

Which is quite honestly palpatines biggest weakness. He gambles during his final confrontation. Take revenge of the sith. He gambled that anakin wouldnt be able to stay away after reporting him to mace windu. He gambled that anakin would turn on mace and save his life. Had Anakin been even 15 seconds later in arriving, palpatine would have been killed. Had he hesitated when the final choice had to be made, palpatine would have died. You see how his gamble fails at the end of return of the jedi. He thinks vader is too far gone to be willing to protect his son. He thinks that he can take a quick and easy path to corrupting luke. He was wrong on both counts and it got him killed.

Raimun
2012-02-19, 03:12 PM
I believe it would be a draw.

They would knock each other out with headbutts.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-19, 03:33 PM
The reason why i posted this is because of how good a job palpatine did of convincing the entire galaxy that he wasnt a sith lord. People harp on batmans ability to think and plan and prepare for contingencies, but they seem to gloss over the fact that palpatine spent decades setting up a perfect takeover of the galaxy that succeeded He wasnt some big bad guy with grandiose plans that got thwarted at the last second, he pulled it off, and he did it so well that the previous government cheered him on as he took over. Palpatine, in other words, is also a master strategist.

Im not going to get into a whole debate over who is the better one, because that honestly isnt the point. The point is that just because batman is good at making plans doesnt mean palpatine will just be caught flat footed by anything more intricate than a back alley brawl. At the very least, palpatines ability to plan and prepare and work hidden behind the scenes until the final confrontation means a great deal of batmans natural planning advantage will be negated. Palpatines greatest strength is secrecy. he is able to remain hidden for as long as he wants, to work from behind the scenes in such a way as to never cause even a moments suspicion. Its altogether possible that batman wont discover the hidden power behind whoever is taking control of the city until he gets dragged before palpatine and the final battle takes place.

Which is quite honestly palpatines biggest weakness. He gambles during his final confrontation. Take revenge of the sith. He gambled that anakin wouldnt be able to stay away after reporting him to mace windu. He gambled that anakin would turn on mace and save his life. Had Anakin been even 15 seconds later in arriving, palpatine would have been killed. Had he hesitated when the final choice had to be made, palpatine would have died. You see how his gamble fails at the end of return of the jedi. He thinks vader is too far gone to be willing to protect his son. He thinks that he can take a quick and easy path to corrupting luke. He was wrong on both counts and it got him killed.

So how might Palpatine underestimate or gamble poorly against Batman? Gearing his defenses to resist another Force-user, perhaps, because while his precog tells him someone is out to get him, he's too institutionally arrogant to consider any 'mundane' capable of defeating him?

Traab
2012-02-19, 03:52 PM
So how might Palpatine underestimate or gamble poorly against Batman? Gearing his defenses to resist another Force-user, perhaps, because while his precog tells him someone is out to get him, he's too institutionally arrogant to consider any 'mundane' capable of defeating him?

It would likely be something small and/or unexpected.

"So, BRUCE. I thought we would have a little chat before I kill... what was that?!"
/crashing sound

"I put in a call the other day for an old friend. I used to call him Robin, but he prefers to be known as Nightwing now."

There, thats one such gap. He didnt expect for batman to swallow his pride and call in some old friends to help out. I mean, who would expect that? Its GOTHAM, noone else is allowed to work there dangit!

I mean, it would honestly just be another deus ex batmachina, but thats the sort of thing that plays to both characters. Palpatine not considering some unlikely scenario and planning for it, and batman coming up with an unexpected trick to win when he should have lost. Im sure if I took some more time I could come up with a few others. But just remember, just because palpatines gamble didnt pay off once, doesnt mean it wouldnt work at all. I would like to think that he wouldnt pick up an idiot ball the same size as the one he held when he tried to torture darth vaders son to death in front of him and expected vader to just stand there breathing deeply.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-19, 05:25 PM
If Palpatine isn't actually hundreds of years old then what am I thinking of?

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-19, 05:57 PM
Hmm. There's a thought; Batman's goal isn't really to punch Palpatine really hard, it's to stop him. Palpatine's danger and threat is in the form of him taking over from within the system and ruling with an iron fist.
Doesn't that just mean that Batman ruins Palpatine's campaign/get's him impeached/points out he's not elegable to stand for any relevant office and can effectively call it a day as Earth holds nothing else worthwhile for Palpatine to go after?

Traab
2012-02-19, 06:51 PM
Hmm. There's a thought; Batman's goal isn't really to punch Palpatine really hard, it's to stop him. Palpatine's danger and threat is in the form of him taking over from within the system and ruling with an iron fist.
Doesn't that just mean that Batman ruins Palpatine's campaign/get's him impeached/points out he's not elegable to stand for any relevant office and can effectively call it a day as Earth holds nothing else worthwhile for Palpatine to go after?

Thats assuming he could. Palpatine is able to confuse minds, he is a master at manipulation, and he has knowledge of very advanced technology. By the time batman gets around to trying to "unmask" palpatine, he is a respected political powerhouse, with lots of connections, and people in power more willing to believe him than some costumed vigilante. And it still comes down to a big final confrontation in the end, the whole politics angle was just an idea of how palpatine might go at it. I mean, I doubt he is such a blood crazed lunatic that if you put the two of them in an enclosed space they would just start attacking each other like rabid badgers, there has to be SOME reason for them to fight.

So I like the idea of palpatine with his full personal abilities and a lightsaber popping into gotham and starting from scratch. He regresses to his usual methods and starts working on gaining power, specifically political power, while at the same time forming less than legal connections as well. Eventually he learns of batman and how this fellow is rather good at stopping people like him, and decides he wants to take him down. Perhaps batman busted up one of his less than legal arrangements and is now looking for the ringleader. Now we have both sides looking for the other an its a race to see who comes up with the answers first.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-20, 01:30 AM
So I like the idea of palpatine with his full personal abilities and a lightsaber popping into gotham and starting from scratch. He regresses to his usual methods and starts working on gaining power, specifically political power, while at the same time forming less than legal connections as well. Eventually he learns of batman and how this fellow is rather good at stopping people like him, and decides he wants to take him down. Perhaps batman busted up one of his less than legal arrangements and is now looking for the ringleader. Now we have both sides looking for the other an its a race to see who comes up with the answers first.

If that's the scenario, then there's no question that Batman would win.

World's greatest detective.

The instant Palpatine makes any connections, political, criminal, or otherwise, he pops up on Batman's radar and the Dark Knight starts a file on the newcomer. Batman already has the home field advantage (at least according to most of the given scenarios) and an established network of contacts not just in Gotham, but across the world and even the cosmos.

Mando Knight
2012-02-20, 02:50 AM
he's too institutionally arrogant to consider any 'mundane' capable of defeating him?

This is a fact.

Exhibit A: Ewoks. "An entire legion of my best troops..." get beat by teddy bears led by Solo, Leia (who at the time was not Force trained), and a couple of droids (and possibly a small group of Rebel soldiers... we don't see them much).

Exhibit B: Palpatine's death in RotJ. Not by some climactic Force duel, but by Vader physically picking him up and dropping him down a shaft into a hypermatter reactor.

For a guy who can make the galaxy fight itself in order to convince them to grant him unlimited executive power, Palpatine is an idiot. He will trick you into playing against yourself, but devalues every other piece on the board to the point of not realizing that a pawn is actually worth something until it slips into the back row for an instant checkmate.

Dr._Demento
2012-02-20, 05:57 AM
Something I believe that team Palpatine are overlooking is the simple question:

Is death enough to overcome Batman?

Because I'm fairly sure that signs point to no. If Palpatine Force eviscerates Batman, than he simply Punches out Death, Lazarus Pits, Goes into freaky trance state awaiting revival, becomes a Force Ghost...

Palpatine loses the second he assumes he wins by killing the Bats.

Devonix
2012-02-20, 07:40 AM
This is a fact.

Exhibit A: Ewoks. "An entire legion of my best troops..." get beat by teddy bears led by Solo, Leia (who at the time was not Force trained), and a couple of droids (and possibly a small group of Rebel soldiers... we don't see them much).



I've seen this movie. The Ewoks are little more than a distraction that gets the rebel soldiers freed. Yes I think two of their traps manage to take out two walkers but the second the Troopers realize whats going on they start murdering the little buggers till Chewie gets ahold of a scout walker and finishes the others off.

Devonix
2012-02-20, 07:43 AM
If that's the scenario, then there's no question that Batman would win.

World's greatest HUMAN detective.

The instant Palpatine makes any connections, political, criminal, or otherwise, he pops up on Batman's radar and the Dark Knight starts a file on the newcomer. Batman already has the home field advantage (at least according to most of the given scenarios) and an established network of contacts not just in Gotham, but across the world and even the cosmos.

Fixed that for you:smalltongue:

Dragonus45
2012-02-20, 08:38 AM
Fixed that for you:smalltongue:

Considering the entire purpose for batman in and crossover fiction the DC universe as it stands now is to be the paragon of the idea of mankind never truly being out of the fight, to be the example of HUMANS ability to compete with even gods, its hard to hold being human against him. Especially when he certainly counts as strong willed enough to resists even the most powerful mental manipulations The emperor could throw at him. Which does seem to be the emperors strong suit, that and force based attacks such as throwing lightning.

But here is an idea, Palpatines star destroyer while traveling in the warp hits a quantum gravitational dark matter reverse tachyon field and pops out into the dc universe. In the middle of a massive alien invasion, seeing an immediate threat not part of his empire and not realizing where he is defeats the threat, at the cost of the functionality of his ship, already heavily damaged and most of its technology fried, leaving it out of the fight entirely except as a source of tech, and perhaps an orbital base if enough thrusters survive to allow it maintain a stable orbit, or someone tows it to a Lagrange point. In fact its at the Lagrange that puts it on the other side of the sun. Great Evil Overlord Base to fall back too. Earth offers to assist him and his surviving men in going home and in the meanwhile he and his men are offered a place to stay. He pulls a Schwarzenegger and rises to a position of governership or whatever while lobbying to make it legal for him to run for president.

On Bats side he learns from a defecting trooper, who squeals all the real details to him after bats breaks up an ilegal weapons ring where palpmeister is selling his SW weapon tech. This is around the same time Palpy is hitting to importatnt and respectable too go down with just one criminals word. After This Darth P sends a lesser hand to take out the bat, wildly underestimating the kind of thing the Big B is capable of. Giving BatGuy an excellent opportunity to face off with a low level force user and understand what they are capable of, the hand probably goes stealthy, manipulates people to make crime to get the Flying Rodents attention, the basic telekinesis and precognitive dodging, the ability to overcome basic stealth measures with mental detection. The lightsabers, with bats procures afterwords giving him at least one thing he can use in a fight, or perhaps allowing him to work on a Vibranium equivalent for the DCU.

Assuming Palp has at least one more Active hand he can send and Brucy manages to bone up on what a force user is capable of, and that batman has at least one robin, lets go with Jason Todd, he gets no love, Nightwing, and Batgirl is Oracle. The rouges die off at the hands of the hand to show that it is a threat during its initial run on THE GDBATMAN.

(HOLY CHIMPANZEE BATMAN THIS POST JUST MADE ME A BUGBEAR.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-20, 09:17 AM
Fixed that for you:smalltongue:

No, see, the proper semantic-related counter argument would be to point out that Batman is only the World's greatest detective while Palpatine is not of this world.

Devonix
2012-02-20, 09:22 AM
No, see, the proper semantic-related counter argument would be to point out that Batman is only the World's greatest detective while Palpatine is not of this world.

I was pointing out that you must have forgotten Detective Chimp.

on a side note I am now an orc...

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-20, 09:27 AM
I was pointing out that you must have forgotten Detective Chimp.

on a side note I am now an orc...

Gratz.

And sorry, even though I watched Brave and the Bold religiously, that reference was lost on me. :smalltongue:

Dragonus45
2012-02-20, 09:29 AM
Is Detective Chimp better than Batman, the only thing i know of his was his appearance in 52

Emmerask
2012-02-20, 10:02 AM
Worlds greatest detective in a world filled with the most moronic people imaginable is not that much of an achievement to be honest.

He is competing against the same people that canīt identify a person once they wear the tiniest sliver of cloth on their face or wear an atypical uniform, that are unable to make the simplest logical deductions and have the social intelligence of an 11 year old most of the time...yeah worlds greatest detective :smallbiggrin:

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-20, 10:19 AM
Worlds greatest detective in a world filled with the most moronic people imaginable is not that much of an achievement to be honest.

He is competing against the same people that canīt identify a person once they wear the tiniest sliver of cloth on their face or wear an atypical uniform, that are unable to make the simplest logical deductions and have the social intelligence of an 11 year old most of the time...yeah worlds greatest detective :smallbiggrin:



At least in Batman's world the military can shoot straight.

Oindoth
2012-02-20, 10:43 AM
Fortunately, Batsy already knows everything we know about Palpatine. A quick pop into Earth-Prime and a couple of questions are all he needs to find the entire Star Wars EU.

Dragonus45
2012-02-20, 10:58 AM
Fortunately, Batsy already knows everything we know about Palpatine. A quick pop into Earth-Prime and a couple of questions are all he needs to find the entire Star Wars EU.

If he has access to it, the pull a lot of crazy stuff in the DCU but traveling to the alternate earths is still not quite a common thing. At least not for batman or the batfamily. Those are the only people relevant to the discussion.

Emmerask
2012-02-20, 11:14 AM
At least in Batman's world the military can shoot straight.

Good point... well not the obvious inabilities of the droids but the general idea:

Palpatine hires some mooks do to... well its not really important a bankrobbery or something that bring batman in.
Palpatine has bought high powered sniper rifle.
Due to his ability to look into the shortterm future + other force abilities to concentrate hold still etc he pretty much is the best marksman there is or ever will be.
So Batman shows up to stop the evil mooks then gets a bullet in his head, the end.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-20, 11:32 AM
Good point... well not the obvious inabilities of the droids but the general idea:

Palpatine hires some mooks do to... well its not really important a bankrobbery or something that bring batman in.
Palpatine has bought high powered sniper rifle.
Due to his ability to look into the shortterm future + other force abilities to concentrate hold still etc he pretty much is the best marksman there is or ever will be.
So Batman shows up to stop the evil mooks then gets a bullet in his head, the end.

No, a sniper, even a master marksman (like say, regular Batman villain Deadshot), is not going to take out Batman. You're thinking of Captain America.

Traab
2012-02-20, 11:42 AM
Batman is the world greatest detective. Palpatine managed to fool an entire galaxy, including an entire order of thousands of psychics spread across said galaxy. So what if batman has a file on the new mayor of gotham? That doesnt mean he has any idea what the mayor is doing on the side.

Palpatine is so skilled at using proxies for his proxies that it could take months, if not years for the worlds greatest detective to finish unraveling the snarl of fronts, proxies, shadow organizations, misdirections, and feints that palpatine would be using. And the whole time palpatine already knows that batman is looking for him and is leading him on a merry dance as he gathers all the info he needs to crush batman into a pulp. The day batman finally figures out that palpatine is the mastermind is the day he also finds the entire bat squad with lightsaber holes in their torso and a final confrontation setup by palpatine between them. Which is quickly ended by a force choke, or one of the half dozen other ways I listed that palpatine would kill bruce in a direct fight.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-20, 11:57 AM
Batman is the world greatest detective. Palpatine managed to fool an entire galaxy, including an entire order of thousands of psychics spread across said galaxy. So what if batman has a file on the new mayor of gotham? That doesnt mean he has any idea what the mayor is doing on the side.

Palpatine is so skilled at using proxies for his proxies that it could take months, if not years for the worlds greatest detective to finish unraveling the snarl of fronts, proxies, shadow organizations, misdirections, and feints that palpatine would be using. And the whole time palpatine already knows that batman is looking for him and is leading him on a merry dance as he gathers all the info he needs to crush batman into a pulp. The day batman finally figures out that palpatine is the mastermind is the day he also finds the entire bat squad with lightsaber holes in their torso and a final confrontation setup by palpatine between them. Which is quickly ended by a force choke, or one of the half dozen other ways I listed that palpatine would kill bruce in a direct fight.

Yeah, not buying it. Palpatine's scheme in the prequels only worked because 1) he'd spent a LIFETIME building up his political career and network of contacts just to get into the position he was in, and 2) everyone capable of stopping him was too busy passing around the idiot ball.

Most of the given scenarios (from either side) have Palpatine start from scratch in Gotham. The INSTANT he makes ANY political or criminal headway, Batman already knows his name and location and all of his doings. It would not take years, or months, it would take however long a drive in the Batmobile would take to Palpatine's FIRST headquarters or hideout.

Since the given scenario is still Palpatine in Gotham City, Palpatine knows only what the criminal underworld and general populace can tell him, so he knows that Batman is real, has all sorts of high-tech gadgets, and a bunch of shadowy rumors about him. That's it.

The whole thing plays out like a typical Batman episode. New criminal mastermind in town shows up, Batman confronts them, new villain shows off powers including a laser-sword, telekinesis, and force lightning. None of which is new to Batman. At the absolute most, Batman loses round one, survives (either due to escape or because Palpatine sees potential in a new apprentice), and comes back more prepared next time and kicks Palpatine's ass. Force choke catches Batman with a little surprise, but then Batman tries one of several diversionary tactics (trick shot batarangs, various grenades, remote-controlled Bat-vehicles) while restrained to break Palpatine's concentration. Palpatine tries force-lightning, but it works just as well as any of Batman's other foes with projectile weapons, that is, not very well. After some conversational psychological warfare from both sides, Batman gets one brief shot due to Palpatine's arrogance and belief that he is invincible, and Batman knocks out Palpatine with one sharp punch to the jaw, because despite all the force power in the world, Palpatine is still a brittle old man.

Traab
2012-02-20, 03:08 PM
Yeah, not buying it. Palpatine's scheme in the prequels only worked because 1) he'd spent a LIFETIME building up his political career and network of contacts just to get into the position he was in, and 2) everyone capable of stopping him was too busy passing around the idiot ball.

Most of the given scenarios (from either side) have Palpatine start from scratch in Gotham. The INSTANT he makes ANY political or criminal headway, Batman already knows his name and location and all of his doings. It would not take years, or months, it would take however long a drive in the Batmobile would take to Palpatine's FIRST headquarters or hideout.

Since the given scenario is still Palpatine in Gotham City, Palpatine knows only what the criminal underworld and general populace can tell him, so he knows that Batman is real, has all sorts of high-tech gadgets, and a bunch of shadowy rumors about him. That's it.

The whole thing plays out like a typical Batman episode. New criminal mastermind in town shows up, Batman confronts them, new villain shows off powers including a laser-sword, telekinesis, and force lightning. None of which is new to Batman. At the absolute most, Batman loses round one, survives (either due to escape or because Palpatine sees potential in a new apprentice), and comes back more prepared next time and kicks Palpatine's ass. Force choke catches Batman with a little surprise, but then Batman tries one of several diversionary tactics (trick shot batarangs, various grenades, remote-controlled Bat-vehicles) while restrained to break Palpatine's concentration. Palpatine tries force-lightning, but it works just as well as any of Batman's other foes with projectile weapons, that is, not very well. After some conversational psychological warfare from both sides, Batman gets one brief shot due to Palpatine's arrogance and belief that he is invincible, and Batman knocks out Palpatine with one sharp punch to the jaw, because despite all the force power in the world, Palpatine is still a brittle old man.


Except it only works out that way due to being written by a batman author. Palpatine shows up, he doesnt just walk into city hall and claim he is now the ruler of gotham, he stays in the shadows and gets his bearings. By the time he makes a move on public office, he already has an extensive collection of contacts and support from all over with "official" records to prove he is an ok guy. You may say, "Well batman is good at finding forgeries." Maybe so, but he has to have a reason to LOOK for forgeries before he finds them. Palpatine isnt doing anything out in the open to draw suspicion onto himself, and anything he does do that is illegal has so many layers of camouflage and misdirection on it that it will take batman a long long time to figure them all out because he wont ever be sure if he found the head honcho yet or not.

As an example, palpatine uses a jedi mind trick on some random schlub and makes him transport a message to a go between with instructions on various dead drops and other methods of hiding his existence. That go between is then tasked with making contacts with the criminal underworld, or maybe even another in between step before that happens. Sort of a, "He knows a guy who knows a guy who works for a guy that is involved with crime in some way." deal. If its setup properly, then noone knows exactly who they are dealing with, and has no idea if the rabbit hole goes any further than their boss, who they dont know. Each stop is a new dead end requiring even more effort to backtrack and locate the next step in the chain. By the time he gets anywhere close to palpatine, he already knows about it and can take steps to sever the links.

Meanwhile, batman is an already known quantity. EVERYONE in gotham knows about batman, and through his contacts palpatine would be able to gather a great deal of information on him without ever sticking his neck out. Considering the number of people who have figured out his identity or came damn close over the years and various reboots, I dont think its beyond possible that a highly skilled strategic thinker like palpatine could put together the clues needed to learn who he is. In other words, palpatine is gathering information on batman before batman has any clue he has a new enemy.

As for how batman has already faced the skills palpatine has brought to the table, perhaps, to an extent. Just to show you a link. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk)
is dooku picking up obi wan, another force user, holding him in mid air, then THROWING him hard enough to bend metal. If another force user cant counter it, what stops palpatine from picking up batman and chopping off his freaking head with a lightsaber?

Dragonus45
2012-02-20, 04:17 PM
Yeah, not buying it. Palpatine's scheme in the prequels only worked because 1) he'd spent a LIFETIME building up his political career and network of contacts just to get into the position he was in, and 2) everyone capable of stopping him was too busy passing around the idiot ball.

Most of the given scenarios (from either side) have Palpatine start from scratch in Gotham. The INSTANT he makes ANY political or criminal headway, Batman already knows his name and location and all of his doings. It would not take years, or months, it would take however long a drive in the Batmobile would take to Palpatine's FIRST headquarters or hideout.

Since the given scenario is still Palpatine in Gotham City, Palpatine knows only what the criminal underworld and general populace can tell him, so he knows that Batman is real, has all sorts of high-tech gadgets, and a bunch of shadowy rumors about him. That's it.

The whole thing plays out like a typical Batman episode. New criminal mastermind in town shows up, Batman confronts them, new villain shows off powers including a laser-sword, telekinesis, and force lightning. None of which is new to Batman. At the absolute most, Batman loses round one, survives (either due to escape or because Palpatine sees potential in a new apprentice), and comes back more prepared next time and kicks Palpatine's ass. Force choke catches Batman with a little surprise, but then Batman tries one of several diversionary tactics (trick shot batarangs, various grenades, remote-controlled Bat-vehicles) while restrained to break Palpatine's concentration. Palpatine tries force-lightning, but it works just as well as any of Batman's other foes with projectile weapons, that is, not very well. After some conversational psychological warfare from both sides, Batman gets one brief shot due to Palpatine's arrogance and belief that he is invincible, and Batman knocks out Palpatine with one sharp punch to the jaw, because despite all the force power in the world, Palpatine is still a brittle old man.

Actually i came up with a fairly reasonable scenario for how Palps manages to set himself up politically. Im on the batman wins side of this, but as far as any scenerios thrown out go i think i managed about the most balanced starter for both of them. This thread seems to be full of neither get to start cus the other guy gets them first kinda logic.



As for how batman has already faced the skills palpatine has brought to the table, perhaps, to an extent. Just to show you a link. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk)
is dooku picking up obi wan, another force user, holding him in mid air, then THROWING him hard enough to bend metal. If another force user cant counter it, what stops palpatine from picking up batman and chopping off his freaking head with a lightsaber?

Holding him still is harder then you think, for the most part the force pushes. pulls, lifts, and to some degree can manipulate and create energy such as the force lightning. Holding batman still and killing him is harder then you would think.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-20, 04:20 PM
Except it only works out that way due to being written by a batman author. Palpatine shows up, he doesnt just walk into city hall and claim he is now the ruler of gotham, he stays in the shadows and gets his bearings. By the time he makes a move on public office, he already has an extensive collection of contacts and support from all over with "official" records to prove he is an ok guy. You may say, "Well batman is good at finding forgeries." Maybe so, but he has to have a reason to LOOK for forgeries before he finds them. Palpatine isnt doing anything out in the open to draw suspicion onto himself, and anything he does do that is illegal has so many layers of camouflage and misdirection on it that it will take batman a long long time to figure them all out because he wont ever be sure if he found the head honcho yet or not.

And Harry Potter is only a wizard because JK Rowling said so. The fact is: Batman keeps extensive records on EVERY mover and shaker in Gotham. He has entire databases just devoted to every criminal and their known contacts in Gotham. Palpatine can't just avoid detection from Batman by "sticking to the shadows," because that's where Batman devotes the most of his attention. He has every reason to look up dirt on anyone who shows up in Gotham and starts making contacts, especially in the criminal underworld.


As an example, palpatine uses a jedi mind trick on some random schlub and makes him transport a message to a go between with instructions on various dead drops and other methods of hiding his existence. That go between is then tasked with making contacts with the criminal underworld, or maybe even another in between step before that happens. Sort of a, "He knows a guy who knows a guy who works for a guy that is involved with crime in some way." deal. If its setup properly, then noone knows exactly who they are dealing with, and has no idea if the rabbit hole goes any further than their boss, who they dont know. Each stop is a new dead end requiring even more effort to backtrack and locate the next step in the chain. By the time he gets anywhere close to palpatine, he already knows about it and can take steps to sever the links.

So in your scenario, Palpatine uses couriers and messengers, both of which can be tracked and interrogated. Jedi mind trick isn't a magic amnesia pill, it's a suggestion spell, and if he gives a random schlub a message, Batman easily notices someone's contacting criminal contacts in Gotham, captures one of the couriers, and holds them off a ledge until they talk. If your argument is that they're in some sort of "Jedi mind trance" or something that I've never seen in the movies, guess what? Batman is also trained in the art of mentalism, can recognize a hypnotized subject, and knows how to break said hypnotism easily.


Meanwhile, batman is an already known quantity. EVERYONE in gotham knows about batman, and through his contacts palpatine would be able to gather a great deal of information on him without ever sticking his neck out. Considering the number of people who have figured out his identity or came damn close over the years and various reboots, I dont think its beyond possible that a highly skilled strategic thinker like palpatine could put together the clues needed to learn who he is. In other words, palpatine is gathering information on batman before batman has any clue he has a new enemy.

The only people who know Batman's identity are a handful of close friends and contacts and Hugo Strange. Could he put the clues together? Perhaps, but for the same reason no one's figured out Clark Kent is Superman except for people Superman's told, Batman's identity will probably be secret. Remember, the guy has an elaborate charade going as Bruce Wayne so no one would even think of linking the worthless celebrity trust-fund playboy Bruce Wayne to the highly skilled vigilante Batman.


As for how batman has already faced the skills palpatine has brought to the table, perhaps, to an extent. Just to show you a link. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIkpRkgaZk)
is dooku picking up obi wan, another force user, holding him in mid air, then THROWING him hard enough to bend metal. If another force user cant counter it, what stops palpatine from picking up batman and chopping off his freaking head with a lightsaber?

What stops Palpatine from doing that in RotJ, or in every other fight he's in? What stops the Jedi from using the same tactic? Either plot stupidity (the very same thing you keep bringing up against Batman) or arrogance, which he'll have no lack of. Batman still has access to quite a few of his gadgets even when restrained, his suit is designed in such a way so that when he does get captured, he can still access the tools needed to escape.

But if you want a more specific example: weapons disruptor like the one used in the fairly low-tech (for Batman anyway) Arkham City. Before the lightsaber hits, Batman locks on with a small, handheld device, presses a button, and whatever reaction lets the lightsaber work ceases to function so Palpatine just throws a metal stick. In nearly every example of telekinesis in fiction, Star Wars included, picking up a struggling person is much more difficult than moving an inanimate object.

Either way, Palpatine isn't likely to go all out against Batman because 1) he sees a worthless non force-using human and doesn't see him as a threat (his mistake), or 2) he sees a potential apprentice and tries to manipulate Batman (also his mistake).

I'd be willing to give Palpatine a little more of a break if your Gotham City scenario didn't give Batman every advantage possible.

Devonix
2012-02-20, 09:11 PM
Is Detective Chimp better than Batman, the only thing i know of his was his appearance in 52

They are very close in terms of ability and often times bounce cases off of each other when they get stuck on something. They even hang out together in this detective chat room with a few others where they crack jokes about the Riddler.

You see the Riddler likes to hand out in the detective chatroom also but he's so arrogant that he goes there as himself. and doesn't know that Bats and Chimp are also members.

Anteros
2012-02-20, 09:53 PM
Worlds greatest detective in a world filled with the most moronic people imaginable is not that much of an achievement to be honest.

He is competing against the same people that canīt identify a person once they wear the tiniest sliver of cloth on their face or wear an atypical uniform, that are unable to make the simplest logical deductions and have the social intelligence of an 11 year old most of the time...yeah worlds greatest detective :smallbiggrin:

As opposed to the people who made Jar Jar a senator?

Forum Explorer
2012-02-20, 10:18 PM
As opposed to the people who made Jar Jar a senator?

HA! He's got you there. Really the Jedi and Senators act just as idiotically as characters in the DC universe.

And the other really good point is why don't we ever see Palpatine use force choke or just picking up his opponents? The only time we see him do amazing stuff is when they start pulling powers out of their collective arse in the EU.

Mando Knight
2012-02-21, 01:30 AM
The only time we see him do amazing stuff is when they start pulling powers out of their collective arse in the EU.

Or in Revenge of the Sith, where his and Yoda's Force duel creates a lightning grenade and they play catch with the senate pods...

Omergideon
2012-02-21, 06:57 AM
To defend Palpatine's manipulations...............er. What idiot ball.

No seriously, what idiot balls.
We have a well respected and trusted chancellor who spend years moving people and scenarios into just the right place, using just the right people, to get things to work out in his conquer the galaxy plan. I see no evidence of idiot balls done by the characters and to me most accusations rest on people in the story gaining knowledge they could not possibly have at any time.

So please spell out the idiot balls people play with. Please. I mean it. I want to know what the issues people have are.

Devonix
2012-02-21, 08:01 AM
To defend Palpatine's manipulations...............er. What idiot ball.

No seriously, what idiot balls.
We have a well respected and trusted chancellor who spend years moving people and scenarios into just the right place, using just the right people, to get things to work out in his conquer the galaxy plan. I see no evidence of idiot balls done by the characters and to me most accusations rest on people in the story gaining knowledge they could not possibly have at any time.

So please spell out the idiot balls people play with. Please. I mean it. I want to know what the issues people have are.

think he's reffering to the actions of the jedi when they begin to already suspect Palpatine.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 09:00 AM
To defend Palpatine's manipulations...............er. What idiot ball.

No seriously, what idiot balls.
We have a well respected and trusted chancellor who spend years moving people and scenarios into just the right place, using just the right people, to get things to work out in his conquer the galaxy plan. I see no evidence of idiot balls done by the characters and to me most accusations rest on people in the story gaining knowledge they could not possibly have at any time.

So please spell out the idiot balls people play with. Please. I mean it. I want to know what the issues people have are.

In order to list everything, I'd have to go watch the movie again and carefully list all of them, which I have neither the time nor patience to do, so let me try to sum up some of the big ones:

Anakin Skywalker has the most of these mostly because he's the one Palpatine is dealing with most of the time. When he had the dream about Padme, he should have brought it up to the Jedi Council or at least Obi-Wan. Forbidden love be damned, the damage is done, and either you can do the responsible thing and consult some authorities on the proper steps to be taken and get proper medical care (instead of whatever that was at the end of RotS) and perhaps prove to the Jedi that love and emotions aren't necessarily Dark Side, or you could prove everyone right and go behind everyone's back and latch onto the stranger promising you candy.

And speaking of which, even if you think you've chosen sides, when the first order your new master gives you is to go slaughter children, maybe you should rethink your loyalties. But it's okay! You're protecting Padme.

But we're probably looking for more idiot balls on the whole. Everyone in the Senate and the Jedi Council is guilty of dropping the ball on this one. "Good news, Yoda! Someone apparently just left this whole army here for us to claim! No way it could be a trap, right? Even though I already know our enemies were responsible for this?"

Palpatine's plans require not just individuals, but the collective mistakes of the Jedi Order and the entire Senate. When it's a Xanatos Roulette (something that worked out according to plan but there are just so many ways it could've gone wrong and screwed the plan over), it ceases to be good planning and just turns into bad writing.

Everything works out according to Palpatine's plan not because it's good planning, but because the writing demands it, the very same thing all the Batman detractors are using against him.

Traab
2012-02-21, 10:04 AM
The clone army was the biggest idiot ball. It wasnt even so much an idiot ball as a gaping plot hole. The jedi council KNEW there was something wrong behind its creation, then suddenly the jedi fight in the gladitorial arena, yoda brings in the clone army, and everyone just forgets there was anything odd going on. Its just accepted as ok since it turns out they really needed the army. Maybe that gets explored more in the EU stories, but in the movies its just ignored and all suspicions are forgotten.

Anakin was a mess. The entire character was screwed up horribly, and that makes it hard to be certain where the idiot balls are. The whole nightmare thing, he just couldnt bring himself to admit it. Young people who are scared do stupid stuff. And I wouldnt be surprised to learn palpatine included emotional impulses to make him unwilling to talk to the jedi about it. The whole jedi temple assault was stupid. I would have bought anakin killing the jedi and any padawans that attacked him. Then have the clone troopers execute the rest. It would have been more than enough to trigger obiwan coming after anakin to kill him without making anakin slaughter innocent children.

I blame the fact that palpatine was somehow shrouding the force and blocking their ability to read the future for some of the jedi council stupidity. They have relied on being able to sense what is to come for so long, it would be like taking sherlock holmes and removing his ability to see before he starts working on a case. He might figure it out eventually, but because he cant see anything he will miss things that seem obvious to those around him.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 10:10 AM
(snip)

Agreed with all of this.

Devonix
2012-02-21, 10:47 AM
The clone army was the biggest idiot ball. It wasnt even so much an idiot ball as a gaping plot hole. The jedi council KNEW there was something wrong behind its creation, then suddenly the jedi fight in the gladitorial arena, yoda brings in the clone army, and everyone just forgets there was anything odd going on. Its just accepted as ok since it turns out they really needed the army. Maybe that gets explored more in the EU stories, but in the movies its just ignored and all suspicions are forgotten.

Anakin was a mess. The entire character was screwed up horribly, and that makes it hard to be certain where the idiot balls are. The whole nightmare thing, he just couldnt bring himself to admit it. Young people who are scared do stupid stuff. And I wouldnt be surprised to learn palpatine included emotional impulses to make him unwilling to talk to the jedi about it. The whole jedi temple assault was stupid. I would have bought anakin killing the jedi and any padawans that attacked him. Then have the clone troopers execute the rest. It would have been more than enough to trigger obiwan coming after anakin to kill him without making anakin slaughter innocent children.

I blame the fact that palpatine was somehow shrouding the force and blocking their ability to read the future for some of the jedi council stupidity. They have relied on being able to sense what is to come for so long, it would be like taking sherlock holmes and removing his ability to see before he starts working on a case. He might figure it out eventually, but because he cant see anything he will miss things that seem obvious to those around him.

Here's my problem with people's opinion of EU and cannon. You take things like the Prequel movies and absolutely nothing in those movies make any kind of sense unless you bring EU into it. Unless you treat the EU as the same level of validity the Prequel movies fall apart.

Dragonus45
2012-02-21, 10:54 AM
Or in Revenge of the Sith, where his and Yoda's Force duel creates a lightning grenade and they play catch with the senate pods...


Here's my problem with people's opinion of EU and cannon. You take things like the Prequel movies and absolutely nothing in those movies make any kind of sense unless you bring EU into it. Unless you treat the EU as the same level of validity the Prequel movies fall apart.

That's because the EU has been trying very very hard to cover up the failures of the prequels. But retconing in logic after the fact with other story's from a whole nother medium doesn't make the Movies make sense.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 10:55 AM
Here's my problem with people's opinion of EU and cannon. You take things like the Prequel movies and absolutely nothing in those movies make any kind of sense unless you bring EU into it. Unless you treat the EU as the same level of validity the Prequel movies fall apart.

Personally, I only know the EU stuff by reputation. Never actually read any of it. So yes, the prequel movies do fall apart for me. I've heard mixed reviews about EU stuff, but I'm assuming it's better than the prequel trilogy by a wide margin at least.

Dragonus45
2012-02-21, 11:09 AM
Personally, I only know the EU stuff by reputation. Never actually read any of it. So yes, the prequel movies do fall apart for me. I've heard mixed reviews about EU stuff, but I'm assuming it's better than the prequel trilogy by a wide margin at least.

Honestly there are a few EU books that make the prequal books look witty and smooth by comparison. Although you should most definitely look up the Thrawn trilogy since they are the only ones likely to ever be made into movies. I heard somewhere that Lucas has signed a contract that the only way they will ever become movies is literally over his dead body.

Traab
2012-02-21, 11:14 AM
Here's my problem with people's opinion of EU and cannon. You take things like the Prequel movies and absolutely nothing in those movies make any kind of sense unless you bring EU into it. Unless you treat the EU as the same level of validity the Prequel movies fall apart.

The Eu, from what I have gathered, is basically fans of the trilogies doing their best to fill in the gaps and close all the plot holes lucas left in his films. Its no more official than if I wrote up a story set filling in and explaining all the plot holes in the harry potter series. Just because I can make up reasons why it COULD make sense if all this stuff was happening in the background doesnt mean it actually was. Its just me trying to patch holes in the story with whatever I can think up to justify it. Lucas himself views the EU work as not canon to the movie series, so we cant even use EU justifications to explain away holes in his movies.

Jeivar
2012-02-21, 12:08 PM
How long would it take Batman to acquire a suit of synthesized Cortosis Bat-Armor? If he can synthesize Red Kryptonite, refined cortosis ore shouldn't be impossible.

This sums up one of my problems with "Batman vs X" threads.
Rather than think "could Batman win this scenario?" people generally think "how can I arrange the facts so that Batman wins this scenario?".

If Batman ever fought the Human Torch in a comics crossover the laws of probability would bend and place a convenient fire hydrant nearby for Batman to smash while Torch is stupidly flying right above.

If Batman fought Wolverine in a comics crossover, Batman would magically know about Wolvie's rage beforehand and know how to turn it against him, or Logan's IQ would suddenly drop by 60 points and he'd be lured into falling down an elevator shaft or something. I can't imagine a mainstream writer would let that fight end with Wolverine holding his claws to Batman's throat.

If Batman fought Spider-Man in a crossover, Spidey would forget that he can just shoot superstrong webs at people and forget about his Spider Sense, and Batman would suddenly gain the ability to dodge and block blows from someone much stronger and faster than himself.

For Batman to even think about creating some anti-lightsaber armor he would have to have seen a lightsaber in action . . . meaning the Emperor would already have cut him in half. AND he would also presumably have to know just how a lightsaber works. And Palpatine would have the only one in the world (and see "cut him in half", above). And assuming the materials for creating cortosis even exist on Earth, the SWU engineers presumably didn't get it right on the first try.

Look, I understand Bats is popular, but I like Spider-Man a lot more than Superman, but everyone will acknowledge how that fight would end. So why does Batman always get the convenience of Popularity Power?

thubby
2012-02-21, 12:29 PM
Look, I understand Bats is popular, but I like Spider-Man a lot more than Superman, but everyone will acknowledge how that fight would end. So why does Batman always get the convenience of Popularity Power?

because it's been stated in-universe that he basically manipulates everything.
we're talking anything from convincing an evil alternate universe flash to kill himself in order to save the day.
to playing gods against each other.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-21, 12:44 PM
For Batman to even think about creating some anti-lightsaber armor he would have to have seen a lightsaber in action . . . meaning the Emperor would already have cut him in half. AND he would also presumably have to know just how a lightsaber works. And Palpatine would have the only one in the world (and see "cut him in half", above). And assuming the materials for creating cortosis even exist on Earth, the SWU engineers presumably didn't get it right on the first try.

See, the thing is, on the level of lethality that concerns batman and palpatine, a lightsaber injury is pretty much comparable to a sword wound. no more, no less. It's only slightly trickier to disarm a lightsaber than a sword (no grabbing the blade), and well within Batman's capabilities especially considering Palpatine is hardly a dedicated duelist by Sith/Jedi standards. Likewise, Palpatine is going down in one or two hits from Batman if he manages to connect them, because he is at the end of the day an old man. The lightsaber is a non-issue, as everything you need to know about it you know the second he lights it up and it doesn't really offer any significant advantages to a decent bladed weapon in this particular matchup.

Hell, with the standard Starwars fencing styles, a lightsaber is more liability than advantage against someone like batman, because their moves are telegraphed so badly that he may as well just hand it over to Batman at the start of the fight and hope the moral quandry distracts him enough to drop something heavy on him.

Oh, and if the Worlds Greatest Detective cannot find a single fire extinguisher in a crowded modern city, then something very fishy is going on. :smallwink:

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 01:00 PM
This sums up one of my problems with "Batman vs X" threads.
Rather than think "could Batman win this scenario?" people generally think "how can I arrange the facts so that Batman wins this scenario?".

If Batman ever fought the Human Torch in a comics crossover the laws of probability would bend and place a convenient fire hydrant nearby for Batman to smash while Torch is stupidly flying right above.

Freeze grenade, pretty common among Batman's nonlethal arsenal, derived partially from Mr. Freeze's technology. Also, flame retardant.


If Batman fought Wolverine in a comics crossover, Batman would magically know about Wolvie's rage beforehand and know how to turn it against him, or Logan's IQ would suddenly drop by 60 points and he'd be lured into falling down an elevator shaft or something. I can't imagine a mainstream writer would let that fight end with Wolverine holding his claws to Batman's throat.

Actually this would be a pretty even fight of martial arts, but discipline wins over blind rage. Wolvie's healing factor has never stopped him from being actually beaten. And a high-power magnet isn't too far of a stretch for Batman to pull off. But that's irrelavent, we already know what happens when Batman and Wolverine enter the same universe:

They become one superhero known as Logan Wayne AKA Darkclaw.


If Batman fought Spider-Man in a crossover, Spidey would forget that he can just shoot superstrong webs at people and forget about his Spider Sense, and Batman would suddenly gain the ability to dodge and block blows from someone much stronger and faster than himself.

Spider-Man gets taken down by gas bombs from people like Green Goblin and Mysterio all the time, Spider-Sense or not. Admittedly, he'd put up a good fight, but also not too difficult for Batman.


For Batman to even think about creating some anti-lightsaber armor he would have to have seen a lightsaber in action . . . meaning the Emperor would already have cut him in half. AND he would also presumably have to know just how a lightsaber works. And Palpatine would have the only one in the world (and see "cut him in half", above). And assuming the materials for creating cortosis even exist on Earth, the SWU engineers presumably didn't get it right on the first try.

Armor? Nah, just some batarangs that function lke vibroblades and a weapons disruptor for the lightsaber.

Not everything needs something as obscure as Bat-Shark-Repellent.


Look, I understand Bats is popular, but I like Spider-Man a lot more than Superman, but everyone will acknowledge how that fight would end. So why does Batman always get the convenience of Popularity Power?

Because it's more than just "popularity." The entire crux of Batman's character is a human who, while admittedly has the backstory of a minmaxer and the unlimited money cheat code turned on, is able to roll with the big guns like Superman, Wonder Woman, etcetera and even earn their respect because his devotion, paranoia, and resources combined let him prepare for virtually any scenario.

If you'd prefer a list of people who, at least in my opinion, Batman would actually lose to without, as you say, someone arranging the facts in Batman's favor, well there's...

Darkseid - Even Brave and the Bold Batman lost to Darkseid, and that was when Darkseid was holding back. Whenever Darkseid shows up, Batman's only hope is to somehow get ahold of a boom tube and reverse-engineer it, but the default plan for dealing with Darkseid is "Call Superman."

Dr. Doom - 8-Bit Theater said it best. Both are ridiculous planners with even more ridiculous resources, but even if Batman does manage to stop Doom, it will somehow only be a part of Doom's larger plan (which, from I gather, leaves Doom laughing in triumph, Batman legitimately confused for once, and Reed Richards somewhere in the universe with a strange burning sensation.

Thor - Falls under the immortal god with no real weakness category that even Batman has trouble with. Batman would somehow have to convince Odin that Thor was unworthy again and get his powers revoked.

Basically, if the opponent has a clear, discernable weakness, Batman will find a way to exploit it to win. If the opponent has no such weakness and is in that Superman-level tier of strength and invulnerability, Batman can really only win through a ridiculously convoluted sense of circumstances, luck, or calling for backup.

Devonix
2012-02-21, 01:11 PM
Hell, with the standard Starwars fencing styles, a lightsaber is more liability than advantage against someone like batman, because their moves are telegraphed so badly that he may as well just hand it over to Batman at the start of the fight and hope the moral quandry distracts him enough to drop something heavy on him.



there is a reason lightsaber moves look telegraphed to the duelist they are. Lightsaber fights are precog vs precog its how the battles are designed to work and you're supposed to sense where the attack is coming from and anticipate it. you block and the opponent block because they have both used their powers to sense the attack before you even consider launching it. The person with the best battle precog and reflexes to use it wins.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-21, 01:34 PM
there is a reason lightsaber moves look telegraphed to the duelist they are. Lightsaber fights are precog vs precog its how the battles are designed to work and you're supposed to sense where the attack is coming from and anticipate it. you block and the opponent block because they have both used their powers to sense the attack before you even consider launching it. The person with the best battle precog and reflexes to use it wins.

Eh, problem is, with enough skill, you wouldn't need precog to beat a jedi in a swordfight. Wait for them to do a spin, stab them in the back with a nice direct lunge. I can live with that flaw within Starwars, because it's just how they do things (And it's much less pronounced in the original trilogy).
It kind of fits with the idea of it being a very old, respected martial art. Luke and Vader fight using practical techniques for the most part, but prequel trilogy jedi are using full, elaborate lightsaber-martial-arts style techniques which in a fight with someone who doesn't buy into the tenets of the style will basically get you whooped. See the difference between say, jeet-kune-do and taikwondo.

hamishspence
2012-02-21, 01:39 PM
The Eu, from what I have gathered, is basically fans of the trilogies doing their best to fill in the gaps and close all the plot holes lucas left in his films. Its no more official than if I wrote up a story set filling in and explaining all the plot holes in the harry potter series.

They are generally paid, they have to get authorization from Lucasarts before anything is published, Lucas sometimes specifically nixes ideas and thus an original idea has to be changed, etc.

The connection is much tighter than between, say, Harry Potter, and Harry Potter fanfic.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 01:40 PM
Eh, problem is, with enough skill, you wouldn't need precog to beat a jedi in a swordfight. Wait for them to do a spin, stab them in the back with a nice direct lunge. I can live with that flaw within Starwars, because it's just how they do things (And it's much less pronounced in the original trilogy).
It kind of fits with the idea of it being a very old, respected martial art. Luke and Vader fight using practical techniques for the most part, but prequel trilogy jedi are using full, elaborate lightsaber-martial-arts style techniques which in a fight with someone who doesn't buy into the tenets of the style will basically get you whooped. See the difference between say, jeet-kune-do and taikwondo.

And I'm sure the difference between the original trilogy lightsaber duels and the kung-fu action prequel lightsaber duels is all about the canon history and has nothing to do with their respective special effects budgets. :smalltongue:

Jeivar
2012-02-21, 01:42 PM
It kind of fits with the idea of it being a very old, respected martial art. Luke and Vader fight using practical techniques for the most part, but prequel trilogy jedi are using full, elaborate lightsaber-martial-arts style techniques which in a fight with someone who doesn't buy into the tenets of the style will basically get you whooped. See the difference between say, jeet-kune-do and taikwondo.

Eh, the difference is simply that in the original trilogy they didn't have the means to create something so over the top (Alec Guinness was a senior citizen, the Darth Vader armor was heavy and hard to see out of, no CGI), and Lucas wanted Prequel fights to look Totally Awesome, since this was the golden era.
Jedi wouldn't have made effective peacekeepers and warriors if their fighting style wasn't effective. Just put the impractical acrobatics down to Rule of Cool.

My point is Palpatine's lightsaber fighting style would be functional and effective against Batman, assuming Palpatine wasn't too old and frail for a physical fight by that point.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 01:49 PM
My point is Palpatine's lightsaber fighting style would be functional and effective against Batman, assuming Palpatine wasn't too old and frail for a physical fight by that point.

Knew there was something I was forgetting to mention.


Collapsible bat-sword seen in Batman: The Brave and the Bold, sharp enough to cut through steel objects such as Clock King's robots. Resembles a Lightsaber.

Batman already has a lightsaber. And knows how to use it. Your witness.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-21, 01:53 PM
Clearly he must have used his Bat-Lightsaber when battling the Daleks.
...I think my brain just broke, excuse me.

Chess435
2012-02-21, 02:27 PM
Clearly he must have used his Bat-Lightsaber when battling the Daleks.
...I think my brain just broke, excuse me.

404 Error: Sanity Not Found. :smalltongue:

Steven
2012-02-21, 04:29 PM
Batman wins. After learning about Palpatine, which he would, he watches all the Starwars movies and after sitting in the bat cave feeling depressed for a while he travels through time and space and offs George Lucas in the year 1990.

This relegates Palpatine to the old dude from the original trilogy and even Batman can justify lethal force if it saves the world(s) from the embarrassment of the prequels.

Thank you Batman: I take back all the nasty things I every said about plot armour and deus ex machina. You truly are humanities greatest champion.

Jeivar
2012-02-21, 04:56 PM
Batman wins. After learning about Palpatine, which he would, he watches all the Starwars movies and after sitting in the bat cave feeling depressed for a while he travels through time and space and offs George Lucas in the year 1990.

This relegates Palpatine to the old dude from the original trilogy and even Batman can justify lethal force if it saves the world(s) from the embarrassment of the prequels.

Thank you Batman: I take back all the nasty things I every said about plot armour and deus ex machina. You truly are humanities greatest champion.

I can't help but agree with this. The argument is just too solid.

Traab
2012-02-21, 04:56 PM
They are generally paid, they have to get authorization from Lucasarts before anything is published, Lucas sometimes specifically nixes ideas and thus an original idea has to be changed, etc.

The connection is much tighter than between, say, Harry Potter, and Harry Potter fanfic.

The authorization is more to keep them from writing total crap that does things he really doesnt want to see. For example, imagine if an author wrote a flamboyantly gay han solo with his life partner chewie? It still doesnt change the fact that lucas himself has stated that the EU isnt officially a part of his movie canon. He just likes getting paid money and not having to do anything to earn it other than allowing the author to write. Its true that its more official than your average fanfic writer, but I think its still a better idea to stick with the information we get from the movies when we decide what level of power/ability/skill he has going for him.

Devonix
2012-02-21, 05:10 PM
The authorization is more to keep them from writing total crap that does things he really doesnt want to see. For example, imagine if an author wrote a flamboyantly gay han solo with his life partner chewie? It still doesnt change the fact that lucas himself has stated that the EU isnt officially a part of his movie canon. He just likes getting paid money and not having to do anything to earn it other than allowing the author to write. Its true that its more official than your average fanfic writer, but I think its still a better idea to stick with the information we get from the movies when we decide what level of power/ability/skill he has going for him.

But those generally suck even worse than the worst of EU

Remember the Ewok movies are G Canon

Omergideon
2012-02-21, 05:35 PM
Right.

From what I can determine the identified plot holes and idiot balls are Anakin being a flawed character (kind of the point of him as a character really.......he has issues), and the council Trusting the Clone Troopers much too much. I agree with the second one to a point, as they seem to be accepted by Yoda almost out of nowhere once discovered. That was one gift horse that should have been looked in the mouth more. But with the looming interplanetary war, the loss of some of their pre-cog power (for the large scale) and the politics of the time with the Chancellor puching for the army to be used I file it under "understandable and in character mistake" and not idiot ball. Besides Yoda does express misgivings over the army and it's use at the end of AoTC. Pretty vocal ones.

By RoTS they have had 3 years of war, including making closeish friends with some of the troopers (Commander Cody springs to mind) so greater trust is to be expected.

And The council did make a number of mistakes with Anakin in how they dealt with his relationship with the chancellor. Asking him to be a spy was a mistake. A big one. But if not for the problems with Padme it would not have been fatal. I get their logic in refusing Anakin the post of Master (it would be improper and suggest the Chancellor controls the Jedi). And had Ani been less emotional he probably would have accepted it with good grace. But we see that a lot of his emotional issues stem from Palpatine's manipulations of his emotional state. And the necessities of maintaining a secret relationship. And his abandonment issues that are all but spelled out in the films.

To be honest, if they had simply said to Anakin "we think the Sith is manipulating the Chancellor. Please look out for any odd behaviours for us" it would have gone better. But I will need to rewatch the scene when Anakin is asked this to be sure about how they did it. But then he was facing some big issues.

Remember, an idiot ball is not the same as the character making a poor choice for well explained in universe reasons.

Really, I disagree with much of the accusations of idot ball holding in the prequels. Many of the choices seem sensible enough to me. Not all, but most.

And to avoid more than a little debate, I really enjoyed the Prequels. I thought they were good and fun.




But as something of a martial artist (if not a swordsman) I would comment on the combat stylings of the Jedi. They do seem to do a lot of fancy, high falutin and visually impressive things. When fighting each other. By comparison, when facing non force sensitive mooks they are far more direct, simple and straightforward in their butchery. Like on the bridge with General Grevious. They are much less fancy and spinny when facing the droids there. It is only against other force users they gat fancy (or Yoda in general, but the dude is 2 feet tall. Most combat styles would not work for him).

SO when facing a non force sensitive (i.e., someone who cannot see the future) they fight simply and directly. When facing a Jedi, who can see the future as well, and can also use the force to reach superhuman levels of speed etc, they use more varied and odd looking attacks.

Not sure what it means against the Batman, but it is a factor.

hamishspence
2012-02-21, 05:40 PM
The authorization is more to keep them from writing total crap that does things he really doesnt want to see.

There's a bit more than that to his activities with the EU:

The Wookieepedia list:
Lucas wrote the story for The Star Wars Holiday Special.
Lucas wrote the stories for, executive produced, and directed pick-ups and re-shoots for both of the Ewok films from the mid-eighties: Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor.
Lucas was involved with the creation of the Star Tours theme park attraction.
Lucas has worked closely with the crew of the Star Wars: The Clone Wars TV series, and has rewritten several of the stories. He is planning to write, direct, and produce part of the upcoming Star Wars live-action TV series.
James Luceno based his book Labyrinth of Evil on the background Lucas informed him of, of what happened right before Revenge of the Sith.
Lucas also gave Genndy Tartakovsky information on specific events during the Clone Wars, which Genndy then used in part of the series.
In writing the novelization of The Phantom Menace, Lucas informed Terry Brooks of the extensive history of the Sith and Jedi before that time period, so he could include it in his book. For example, the character of Darth Bane is an original creation of Lucas', and although he did not include information on the character in his films, he informed Terry Brooks of the character to incorporate into the novelization of The Phantom Menace. Lucas also gave Brooks other extensive bits of info of what went on during The Phantom Menace.
Lucas wrote the prologue for Matthew Stover's novel Shatterpoint.
During the production of the Shadows of the Empire multimedia project, Lucas instructed those involved to base the Prince Xizor character on the Dashade species from The Star Wars Holiday Special.
Lucas met with Roy Thomas to help plan the early storylines for Marvel Star Wars, and personally approved the direction Thomas planned to take the series.
Lucas selected Archie Goodwin to become a writer for the Star Wars comic strip.
Lucas helped Kevin J. Anderson develop aspects of the Sith for the Tales of the Jedi comics.
Lucas decided that Delta Squad should have colored armor in Republic Commando, to match Episode III.
Lucas instructed John Ostrander on what the fate of Quinlan Vos should be in Star Wars: Republic 83: The Hidden Enemy, Part 3.
George Lucas has decreed that there can be no more Wookiee Jedi in the Expanded Universe. Notably, Obsidian Entertainment was forbidden to make Hanharr a Dark Jedi because of this restriction.
George Lucas has decreed that, following Episode III, Palpatine has only minor concern over the remaining Jedi.
Lucas owns the original cover art of Tag & Bink Were Here.
Lucas gave his direct input and guidance to the 2007 multimedia project Star Wars: The Force Unleashed.
Lucas established that Darth Plagueis is a Muun.

Devonix
2012-02-21, 06:18 PM
There's a bit more than that to his activities with the EU:

The Wookieepedia list:
Lucas wrote the story for The Star Wars Holiday Special.
Lucas wrote the stories for, executive produced, and directed pick-ups and re-shoots for both of the Ewok films from the mid-eighties: Caravan of Courage and The Battle for Endor.
Lucas was involved with the creation of the Star Tours theme park attraction.
Lucas has worked closely with the crew of the Star Wars: The Clone Wars TV series, and has rewritten several of the stories. He is planning to write, direct, and produce part of the upcoming Star Wars live-action TV series.
James Luceno based his book Labyrinth of Evil on the background Lucas informed him of, of what happened right before Revenge of the Sith.
Lucas also gave Genndy Tartakovsky information on specific events during the Clone Wars, which Genndy then used in part of the series.
In writing the novelization of The Phantom Menace, Lucas informed Terry Brooks of the extensive history of the Sith and Jedi before that time period, so he could include it in his book. For example, the character of Darth Bane is an original creation of Lucas', and although he did not include information on the character in his films, he informed Terry Brooks of the character to incorporate into the novelization of The Phantom Menace. Lucas also gave Brooks other extensive bits of info of what went on during The Phantom Menace.
Lucas wrote the prologue for Matthew Stover's novel Shatterpoint.
During the production of the Shadows of the Empire multimedia project, Lucas instructed those involved to base the Prince Xizor character on the Dashade species from The Star Wars Holiday Special.
Lucas met with Roy Thomas to help plan the early storylines for Marvel Star Wars, and personally approved the direction Thomas planned to take the series.
Lucas selected Archie Goodwin to become a writer for the Star Wars comic strip.
Lucas helped Kevin J. Anderson develop aspects of the Sith for the Tales of the Jedi comics.
Lucas decided that Delta Squad should have colored armor in Republic Commando, to match Episode III.
Lucas instructed John Ostrander on what the fate of Quinlan Vos should be in Star Wars: Republic 83: The Hidden Enemy, Part 3.
George Lucas has decreed that there can be no more Wookiee Jedi in the Expanded Universe. Notably, Obsidian Entertainment was forbidden to make Hanharr a Dark Jedi because of this restriction.
George Lucas has decreed that, following Episode III, Palpatine has only minor concern over the remaining Jedi.
Lucas owns the original cover art of Tag & Bink Were Here.
Lucas gave his direct input and guidance to the 2007 multimedia project Star Wars: The Force Unleashed.
Lucas established that Darth Plagueis is a Muun.

reading the one saying no more wookiee jedi makes me fear that they will kill off Lowbaca one of my fave EU characters.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-21, 07:03 PM
Eh throwing lightning and the senate discs isn't really that impressive. Not when compared to DC scale.

As for idiot balls that order 66? If I understand what I was told correctly it was available to the Jedi to read. The whole order list was. Now to be fair there was an order requiring the removal of the senate. As well as another order to remove the Chancellor. But order 66 was the only one that did not require the authorization of at least one other group.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 07:38 PM
Right.

From what I can determine the identified plot holes and idiot balls are Anakin being a flawed character (kind of the point of him as a character really.......he has issues), and the council Trusting the Clone Troopers much too much. I agree with the second one to a point, as they seem to be accepted by Yoda almost out of nowhere once discovered. That was one gift horse that should have been looked in the mouth more. But with the looming interplanetary war, the loss of some of their pre-cog power (for the large scale) and the politics of the time with the Chancellor puching for the army to be used I file it under "understandable and in character mistake" and not idiot ball. Besides Yoda does express misgivings over the army and it's use at the end of AoTC. Pretty vocal ones.

By RoTS they have had 3 years of war, including making closeish friends with some of the troopers (Commander Cody springs to mind) so greater trust is to be expected.

And The council did make a number of mistakes with Anakin in how they dealt with his relationship with the chancellor. Asking him to be a spy was a mistake. A big one. But if not for the problems with Padme it would not have been fatal. I get their logic in refusing Anakin the post of Master (it would be improper and suggest the Chancellor controls the Jedi). And had Ani been less emotional he probably would have accepted it with good grace. But we see that a lot of his emotional issues stem from Palpatine's manipulations of his emotional state. And the necessities of maintaining a secret relationship. And his abandonment issues that are all but spelled out in the films.

To be honest, if they had simply said to Anakin "we think the Sith is manipulating the Chancellor. Please look out for any odd behaviours for us" it would have gone better. But I will need to rewatch the scene when Anakin is asked this to be sure about how they did it. But then he was facing some big issues.

Remember, an idiot ball is not the same as the character making a poor choice for well explained in universe reasons.

Really, I disagree with much of the accusations of idot ball holding in the prequels. Many of the choices seem sensible enough to me. Not all, but most.

And to avoid more than a little debate, I really enjoyed the Prequels. I thought they were good and fun.




But as something of a martial artist (if not a swordsman) I would comment on the combat stylings of the Jedi. They do seem to do a lot of fancy, high falutin and visually impressive things. When fighting each other. By comparison, when facing non force sensitive mooks they are far more direct, simple and straightforward in their butchery. Like on the bridge with General Grevious. They are much less fancy and spinny when facing the droids there. It is only against other force users they gat fancy (or Yoda in general, but the dude is 2 feet tall. Most combat styles would not work for him).

SO when facing a non force sensitive (i.e., someone who cannot see the future) they fight simply and directly. When facing a Jedi, who can see the future as well, and can also use the force to reach superhuman levels of speed etc, they use more varied and odd looking attacks.

Not sure what it means against the Batman, but it is a factor.

See, right now part of me wants to say, "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong," but since everything you said is based off your opinion, I really can't.

I don't see Anakin as a "flawed character," but a whiny, self-absorbed, easily manipulated little brat who stains the name of Darth Vader and would fit in better in a Twilight movie than the Star Wars prequels.

The council trusting the clone troopers isn't an "understandable, compromising mistake." It's an unforgivable idiot ball that a council of supposedly wise Jedi masters should not have ever made.

Trusting Anakin to do all the vitally important dirty work trying to expose Palpatine was a bad idea. Sure, he was probably their only chance to get some info, but then maybe they should've kept a tighter leash on Anakin and not constantly berated the angsty teenager for being angsty.

These are, however, a difference of opinions, which are allowed to happen in a debate.

Traab
2012-02-21, 08:11 PM
See, right now part of me wants to say, "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong," but since everything you said is based off your opinion, I really can't.

I don't see Anakin as a "flawed character," but a whiny, self-absorbed, easily manipulated little brat who stains the name of Darth Vader and would fit in better in a Twilight movie than the Star Wars prequels.

The council trusting the clone troopers isn't an "understandable, compromising mistake." It's an unforgivable idiot ball that a council of supposedly wise Jedi masters should not have ever made.

Trusting Anakin to do all the vitally important dirty work trying to expose Palpatine was a bad idea. Sure, he was probably their only chance to get some info, but then maybe they should've kept a tighter leash on Anakin and not constantly berated the angsty teenager for being angsty.

These are, however, a difference of opinions, which are allowed to happen in a debate.

The thing with the clone army that keeps it from being an idiot ball to me is that the jedi DO have suspicions, they know the army was ordered illegally, and they dont know who did it. Thats at the end of movie 2. But then by movie 3 its like they just forgot there was ever a reason to suspect them. Its more of a plot hole than an idiot ball, because we arent given any reason for the jedi to STOP looking into the clone army creation issue, it just goes away. Its left completely unexplained instead of given a stupid reason.

Lamech
2012-02-21, 08:25 PM
The council trusting the clone troopers isn't an "understandable, compromising mistake." It's an unforgivable idiot ball that a council of supposedly wise Jedi masters should not have ever made.

Didn't someone say Palpatine was clouding their vision of the future? Its really easy to appear "wise" when you can see the damn future. For one it probably means that their SOP is: Only work to prevent disaster when their will be a disaster. They wouldn't be used to preventing unforseen disasters.

Oindoth
2012-02-21, 09:30 PM
Aha! Ladies and gentlemen, Star Wars is a franchise that is known to characters of the DCU! I refer you Sinestro Corps Secret Files #1, pg. 45(?), wherein the Green Lantern Guy Gardener references Tatooine. It's nigh impossible to think that, given this revelation, Batman isn't aware of Palpatine, his motives, what he looks like, and his capabilities.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 10:09 PM
All right, I'm going to do something counterproductive to my previous stances and suggest something:

So Palpatine is in Gotham City, right?

But one of his major weaknesses is, despite his powers, he's still a decrepit old man, right?

What happens if he gets access to a Lazarus pit? :smalleek:

Devonix
2012-02-21, 10:32 PM
There ar no Lazarus pits in Gotham he'd have to go elsewhere.

Traab
2012-02-21, 10:42 PM
There ar no Lazarus pits in Gotham he'd have to go elsewhere.

Doesnt batman have one?

Anteros
2012-02-21, 10:47 PM
There ar no Lazarus pits in Gotham he'd have to go elsewhere.

There have definitely been story arcs where Lazarus pits were located inside Gotham. I don't doubt there will be in the future as well.

turkishproverb
2012-02-21, 10:57 PM
Doesnt batman have one?

yep. Under his house. The only one known to be in Gotham, and he pumps them empty wherever else he finds one.

Traab
2012-02-21, 11:22 PM
yep. Under his house. The only one known to be in Gotham, and he pumps them empty wherever else he finds one.

Heh, I bet that pisses off Ras al ghul. Anyways, back on topic, I still stand by my first impression. A non idiot palpatine will pick up batman with the force, then shove a lightsaber through him while he is stuck there unable to move.

Lamech
2012-02-21, 11:36 PM
yep. Under his house. The only one known to be in Gotham, and he pumps them empty wherever else he finds one.

Does he store the chemicals to use to help people? Or is he just opposed to natural medicine?

Traab
2012-02-21, 11:43 PM
Does he store the chemicals to use to help people? Or is he just opposed to natural medicine?

I think he is more opposed to liquid immortality with a side effect of insanity.

Tavar
2012-02-21, 11:49 PM
Not simply insanity: Comic book insanity, which means it makes you evil, instead of, you know, insane.

Oindoth
2012-02-22, 12:06 AM
Heh, I bet that pisses off Ras al ghul. Anyways, back on topic, I still stand by my first impression. A non idiot palpatine will pick up batman with the force, then shove a lightsaber through him while he is stuck there unable to move.

I honestly fail to believe that Batman will not be prepared for that. He clearly knows who Palpatine is, given that Star Wars is a known franchise in the DCU, and he can easily have the Batwing, Batmobile and Batcycle, at the very least, ram Palps while he's Force-choking him. He's been immobilized and in danger of being stabbed before, y'know.

Lamech
2012-02-22, 12:43 AM
I think he is more opposed to liquid immortality with a side effect of insanity.

I thought it was temporary? At least wikipedia claimed it was temporary.
1) Lock Dying Person Down
2) Immerse in pit. (Well hopefully you've extracted the chemicals from nature so you can charge)
3) Remove and wait for person to de-insane up.
4)???
5) Profit!

I honestly fail to believe that Batman will not be prepared for that. He clearly knows who Palpatine is, given that Star Wars is a known franchise in the DCU, and he can easily have the Batwing, Batmobile and Batcycle, at the very least, ram Palps while he's Force-choking him. He's been immobilized and in danger of being stabbed before, y'know.

He's a precog who can toss senate chairs around. I assume he'll just toss those aside too. Also in all vs. threads between fictional characters its a good idea to assume they in fact don't know all about each other due to the media.

Oindoth
2012-02-22, 12:58 AM
Force powers, in all media I've seen, require hand gestures to direct them. In order for him to take care of all of the bat-vehicles, he'd at least have to let Batman go, giving him a chance to prepare better.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-22, 02:02 AM
Force powers, in all media I've seen, require hand gestures to direct them. In order for him to take care of all of the bat-vehicles, he'd at least have to let Batman go, giving him a chance to prepare better.

They don't require gestures but gestures act as sort of a crutch. Well according to the EU anyways. So grain of salt, all that jazz.


The problem is we never see the Emperor or any Jedi to a complete body grab then walk up and kill them. Not even Vader. You might as well say that Palpatine will use the force to send bullets through Batman's skull from around the corner. Its a logical extension of his powers but its never seen.

Devonix
2012-02-22, 02:55 AM
yep. Under his house. The only one known to be in Gotham, and he pumps them empty wherever else he finds one.

Wait if there was a lazarus pit underneath the mansion then why did Richard Grayson...(because of silly forum censors) have to travel elsewhere to find one when he took what he thought was Bruce's corpse to be revived?


Ok checked things out and apparently the thing with there being a Lazarus pit underneath the batcave It may or may not be there it seems that its might have been retconned away. I personally think it is a stupid idea that Bruce would keep a fountain of insanity youth in his basement.

Its kind of an evil thing to do.

Also they can only be used once except by Ra's daughter Nyssa who knows how to uses them indefinetly but hasn't shared that knowledge with anyone.

turkishproverb
2012-02-22, 03:09 AM
Wait if there was a lazarus pit underneath the mansion then why did Richard Grayson...(because of silly forum censors) have to travel elsewhere to find one when he took what he thought was Bruce's corpse to be revived?

Two options.
1. Bad writing
2. Censored Grayson didn't know about it.

hamishspence
2012-02-22, 03:13 AM
. But then by movie 3 its like they just forgot there was ever a reason to suspect them. Its more of a plot hole than an idiot ball, because we arent given any reason for the jedi to STOP looking into the clone army creation issue, it just goes away. Its left completely unexplained instead of given a stupid reason.

In the EU (of course) we find out that they spent most of the war looking into it- in Labyrinth of Evil, where Yoda explains his findings. It's still pretty blurred, but they confirm that a Jedi (Sifo-Dyas, mentioned by the Kaminoans) really did place the order- then was murdered.

And that the money came from a mysterious "Tyranus"- though they can't follow the money trail all the way back- since it leads into "a maze of deception".

Yoda's theory was that Dooku murdered him, deleted Kamino from the archives, then left the Order. This is confirmed in Dooku's own musings.

Devonix
2012-02-22, 03:18 AM
Two options.
1. Bad writing
2. Censored Grayson didn't know about it.

This was a Grant Morrison Comic.

aka Grant EVERYTHING IS CANON Morrison it feels weird he wouldn't bring it up unless it just doesn't or never did really exist.

turkishproverb
2012-02-22, 06:03 AM
grant Morrison has missed more than a few things, even with his handwave.

A short version of the events are found in Batman/Ra's al Ghul Year One, if I remember. Oddly, that story flashes back to their first meetings, rather than taking place in their first year of interaction.

Omergideon
2012-02-22, 07:17 AM
See, right now part of me wants to say, "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong," but since everything you said is based off your opinion, I really can't.


These are, however, a difference of opinions, which are allowed to happen in a debate.

Indeed. I think so long as we own up to, and can explain. our opinions they are valid. We agree on all the facts of the prequels, but disagree on the quality. That is fine by me.

But the "we now trust them" plot hole........we see what 3 years of hard fighting with your comrade in arms can do. A lack of trust probably went away after the 10th+ time a clone trooper saved this or that Jedi's life. Understandable to me. I do think they should have been more aware indeed, but I get why they were not. They got to know the individual clones (at times) and became closer to them. Obi-Wan is supposed to be the model Jedi in some respects, and pretty typical, so the way he interacts with Commander Cody is a good sign of that.


And Order 66 was written down? Seriously? That isn't in the movie thankfully (where the chancellor getting special orders to his army is in no way unbelievable)...........cos if it was written down that is stupid. Was this from the Novelisation, or another EU book?

Forum Explorer
2012-02-22, 07:52 AM
And Order 66 was written down? Seriously? That isn't in the movie thankfully (where the chancellor getting special orders to his army is in no way unbelievable)...........cos if it was written down that is stupid. Was this from the Novelisation, or another EU book?

Likely EU. I can't remember.

hamishspence
2012-02-22, 08:46 AM
And Order 66 was written down? Seriously? That isn't in the movie thankfully (where the chancellor getting special orders to his army is in no way unbelievable)...........cos if it was written down that is stupid. Was this from the Novelisation, or another EU book?

Specifically, the EU novel Order 66.

It was one of a long list of contingency orders to the clones- what to do if Somebody goes wrong (whether its a politician, a military ally, or the Jedi Order.)

In the novelization its written more as if the clones had the Orders programmed in before even awakening to consciousness in their "creche".

Devonix
2012-02-22, 09:26 AM
grant Morrison has missed more than a few things, even with his handwave.

A short version of the events are found in Batman/Ra's al Ghul Year One, if I remember. Oddly, that story flashes back to their first meetings, rather than taking place in their first year of interaction.

Gotcha just feels very out of character for Batman to have a Lazarus pit squared away I think its somthing he would want to avoid as a temptation for himself.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-22, 09:40 AM
Gotcha just feels very out of character for Batman to have a Lazarus pit squared away I think its somthing he would want to avoid as a temptation for himself.

Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure even if it's still there, Batman didn't exactly put it there. Those things don't exaxtly strike me as portable. Secondly, I doubt he'd use it himself, and would more likely try to guard its use from anyone, what with the immortality-induced insanity it causes.

Omergideon
2012-02-22, 09:56 AM
Specifically, the EU novel Order 66.

It was one of a long list of contingency orders to the clones- what to do if Somebody goes wrong (whether its a politician, a military ally, or the Jedi Order.)

In the novelization its written more as if the clones had the Orders programmed in before even awakening to consciousness in their "creche".

Preprogrammed orders that the Jedi were not to be told about make sense, and if the novelisation says that.....sounds good to me.

And I can almost imagine the Jedi not hating the contingency plan idea.......if they trusted the Chancellor. If they had trusted him then it almost makes sense.

But as is a written list is still foolish. Unless Palps is relying on being so open and brazen about it they think it must be honest...........

Still odd, and foolish.

Traab
2012-02-22, 10:03 AM
Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure even if it's still there, Batman didn't exactly put it there. Those things don't exaxtly strike me as portable. Secondly, I doubt he'd use it himself, and would more likely try to guard its use from anyone, what with the immortality-induced insanity it causes.

I assumed that he wanted to both study it, and keep it as a trophy along with the amazo robot body, shrink rays, joy buzzers, and assorted other crazy things he has taken from the bad guys he beats.

As for never seeing a force user immobilize and kill with the force, you are right, it hasnt been done. We have seen dooku pick up a jedi and fling him across the room hard enough to bend metal with his spine, but not hold him still and stab him in the face. Normally I dont like the "No we dont see it happen that way but it makes sense" type of arguments because they tend to involve obscure things like, "Omg, flash could totally use friction to create a heat beam attack because of xyz!" type stuff. But in this case, its not even an extension of using the force. Its just erasing the movies need to show a flashy duel and the sith getting right to the killing part of things.

Basically, pound it into palpatines skull that instead of treating every one on one fight as an epic duel, he should treat it like he has to kill a thousand droids and just DO IT. No fancy moves just chop chop chop and move on. As for, "But batman would just remotely call his batmobile to save him" Yeah, if the car was three feet behind palpatine it might work. Im not talking about some 30 second gloat fest as batman dangles there, im talking grabbing batman out of midair as he goes for the dramatic entrance, then stabbing him in the face 3 seconds later. Gloat over his corpse palpatine, you can take your time then and get in a really good long gloat. Feel free to include such one liners as, /sniff "Hmm, smells like victory!" or, "Thanks for holding onto my saber for me."

The Glyphstone
2012-02-22, 10:39 AM
Basically, pound it into palpatines skull that instead of treating every one on one fight as an epic duel, he should treat it like he has to kill a thousand droids and just DO IT. No fancy moves just chop chop chop and move on. As for, "But batman would just remotely call his batmobile to save him" Yeah, if the car was three feet behind palpatine it might work. Im not talking about some 30 second gloat fest as batman dangles there, im talking grabbing batman out of midair as he goes for the dramatic entrance, then stabbing him in the face 3 seconds later. Gloat over his corpse palpatine, you can take your time then and get in a really good long gloat. Feel free to include such one liners as, /sniff "Hmm, smells like victory!" or, "Thanks for holding onto my saber for me."

Which is probably what will cause Palpatine to lose, in the end. He's a gloater by nature, it's too much of his makeup as both a person and a character to not treat the fight like an epic duel, even as he believes a non-Force user couldn't have the skill and ability to match him or the willpower to resist his attacks

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-22, 11:11 AM
Basically, pound it into palpatines skull that instead of treating every one on one fight as an epic duel, he should treat it like he has to kill a thousand droids and just DO IT. No fancy moves just chop chop chop and move on. As for, "But batman would just remotely call his batmobile to save him" Yeah, if the car was three feet behind palpatine it might work. Im not talking about some 30 second gloat fest as batman dangles there, im talking grabbing batman out of midair as he goes for the dramatic entrance, then stabbing him in the face 3 seconds later. Gloat over his corpse palpatine, you can take your time then and get in a really good long gloat. Feel free to include such one liners as, /sniff "Hmm, smells like victory!" or, "Thanks for holding onto my saber for me."

Sorry, but 1) Palpatine by nature is an overconfident, sadistic, malicious being who thinks he can't lose and likes to see his targets die long, slow, agonizing painful deaths, even other Jedi that he knows could possibly take him, he's going to gloat and monologue and generally break every rule on the evil overlord list and 2) MULTIPLE counters have already been given for that scenario. Telekinetically grabbing someone and holding them in place is difficult as it is in any other media. Batman has been restrained many times before and still managed to escape much more ridiculous holds. His suit is designed in such a way that he'll still have access to multiple gadgets including batarangs, grenades, a weapon disruptor, one of those devices that emits high-pitch soundwaves to screw with Palpatine's concentration, and if he really wants to, he can just press the button that remote-controls the batmobile/etc to crash through the wall behind Palpatine while Palpatine is gloating. And don't give me the Palpatine is psychic and can see all of it coming argument. If he couldn't see Darth Vader "sneaking" behind him, picking him up, and throwing him into a bottomless pit, then it ain't exactly a spider-sense.

hamishspence
2012-02-22, 11:17 AM
And I can almost imagine the Jedi not hating the contingency plan idea.......if they trusted the Chancellor. If they had trusted him then it almost makes sense.


They did trust him- at the start of the war. It's mentioned in the Episode III novelization that Mace Windu, most senior jedi after Yoda, was very enthusiatic about him- until later, when civil rights were being eroded.

Similarly, Obi-Wan sensed no deceit from the Kaminoans about a Jedi first placing the order for the clones, as I recall.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-22, 01:36 PM
As for never seeing a force user immobilize and kill with the force, you are right, it hasnt been done. We have seen dooku pick up a jedi and fling him across the room hard enough to bend metal with his spine, but not hold him still and stab him in the face. Normally I dont like the "No we dont see it happen that way but it makes sense" type of arguments because they tend to involve obscure things like, "Omg, flash could totally use friction to create a heat beam attack because of xyz!" type stuff. But in this case, its not even an extension of using the force. Its just erasing the movies need to show a flashy duel and the sith getting right to the killing part of things.


Problem is, that directly goes against the characterisation of every force user we have ever seen, let alone Palpatine in particular. That is why it doesn't really work as an argument. Sure, maybe he could do that and maybe that would work, but he wouldn't so it's really not relevant.

Tavar
2012-02-22, 03:21 PM
Also, to compare it to more mundane activities, I'd say it's the difference between punching someone and getting them held in such a way that they're completely locked down. One is much, much more difficult than the other, and generally requires multiple people to really accomplish.

Anteros
2012-02-22, 03:45 PM
I assumed that he wanted to both study it, and keep it as a trophy along with the amazo robot body, shrink rays, joy buzzers, and assorted other crazy things he has taken from the bad guys he beats.

As for never seeing a force user immobilize and kill with the force, you are right, it hasnt been done. We have seen dooku pick up a jedi and fling him across the room hard enough to bend metal with his spine, but not hold him still and stab him in the face. Normally I dont like the "No we dont see it happen that way but it makes sense" type of arguments because they tend to involve obscure things like, "Omg, flash could totally use friction to create a heat beam attack because of xyz!" type stuff. But in this case, its not even an extension of using the force. Its just erasing the movies need to show a flashy duel and the sith getting right to the killing part of things.

Basically, pound it into palpatines skull that instead of treating every one on one fight as an epic duel, he should treat it like he has to kill a thousand droids and just DO IT. No fancy moves just chop chop chop and move on. As for, "But batman would just remotely call his batmobile to save him" Yeah, if the car was three feet behind palpatine it might work. Im not talking about some 30 second gloat fest as batman dangles there, im talking grabbing batman out of midair as he goes for the dramatic entrance, then stabbing him in the face 3 seconds later. Gloat over his corpse palpatine, you can take your time then and get in a really good long gloat. Feel free to include such one liners as, /sniff "Hmm, smells like victory!" or, "Thanks for holding onto my saber for me."

But he doesn't act that way. It doesn't matter if you think he should or if it would be more efficient. The fact of the matter is that He. Does. Not. Act. That. Way.
The end.

turkishproverb
2012-02-22, 06:30 PM
Gotcha just feels very out of character for Batman to have a Lazarus pit squared away I think its somthing he would want to avoid as a temptation for himself.


Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure even if it's still there, Batman didn't exactly put it there. Those things don't exaxtly strike me as portable. Secondly, I doubt he'd use it himself, and would more likely try to guard its use from anyone, what with the immortality-induced insanity it causes.


Actually, he did put it there. You see, if you close all the Lazerus pits, you get zombies all over the world(:smallconfused:), so he wanted one he could watch.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-22, 08:01 PM
Actually, he did put it there. You see, if you close all the Lazerus pits, you get zombies all over the world(:smallconfused:), so he wanted one he could watch.

Wait whut.

Traab
2012-02-22, 10:01 PM
The problem with playing the, "He always gloats" card is, that pretty much means every bad guy put up against a good guy is destined to lose the fight, because thats what bad guys in media do. They put the hero on the ropes, then lean back and cackle madly then gloat about how they are doomed, just long enough for the hero to come up with something that lets them win. It doesnt matter what the matchup is, 90% of the time, the bad guy listed is going to be a gloater and therefore is going to leave an opening for the good guy to escape his certain doom and win the matchup.

Oindoth
2012-02-22, 10:04 PM
So? If that's the character, and that's the character's flaw, you're gonna have to deal with it. "Fair" doesn't enter into it; if you're suggesting a character would do something he's not characterized as doing, that's blithely violating the spirit of the challenge.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-22, 10:10 PM
The problem with playing the, "He always gloats" card is, that pretty much means every bad guy put up against a good guy is destined to lose the fight, because thats what bad guys in media do. They put the hero on the ropes, then lean back and cackle madly then gloat about how they are doomed, just long enough for the hero to come up with something that lets them win. It doesnt matter what the matchup is, 90% of the time, the bad guy listed is going to be a gloater and therefore is going to leave an opening for the good guy to escape his certain doom and win the matchup.

Bad Guys don't often beat the Good Guys. Especially in comic books.

turkishproverb
2012-02-22, 11:24 PM
Wait whut.

I'm just relaying the info, no matter how crazy it seems.

Traab
2012-02-22, 11:26 PM
So? If that's the character, and that's the character's flaw, you're gonna have to deal with it. "Fair" doesn't enter into it; if you're suggesting a character would do something he's not characterized as doing, that's blithely violating the spirit of the challenge.

But there is no real point in the challenge at all, because bad guys almost never win anyways, therefore they are setup to lose right from the start as soon as someone posts a versus thread between a hero and a villain.The relative power levels dont matter because you can always just say, "And then the bad guy stops to gloat, allowing the hero to escape and win." Bad guys gloat, and the reason they gloat is because if they just went about their business, the good guys would all be dead by now. How many hundreds of death traps have the heroes of the dc universe escaped from solely because the bad guy decided to gloat?

Meh, anyways, palpatine doesnt always gloat before the win. He did it in return of the jedi sure, but in revenge of the sith, he didnt waste time with gloating, he just straight up slaughtered 4 jedi in about as many seconds then got anakin to join him before he launched mace windu off a 2000 story tall building with force lightning. He didnt gloat before authorizing order 66. He didnt gloat before he took official control of his new empire. I think he may have done a bit of gloating when he dealt with yoda, but he kicked the geezer midgets ass anyways while laughing.

The force grab and impale strategy doesnt give batman time to do anything but die. He is grabbed and stabbed inside of 3 seconds. Then palpatine can force leap over the batmobile and let it run over batmans corpse just for the fun of it if batman managed to put out a signal just before dying.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-22, 11:32 PM
Which is all well and good, but then we're discussing Batman VS an original character of Traab's design, not Batman VS Palpatine. Restating the point isn't going to change that simple fact.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-22, 11:32 PM
The presence or absence of actual gloating isn't really the issue, it's the attitude behind it. Sure, he could force-lift-impale-kill, but that sort of quick efficient kill is completely uncharacteristic of him, since his defining character flaw is, as mentioned above, is his inability to conceive of losing and thus a tendency to take huge risks. It's not in his nature to consider any opponent an equal, or even a serious threat at all particularly for a non-Force-user.

Traab
2012-02-22, 11:37 PM
The presence or absence of actual gloating isn't really the issue, it's the attitude behind it. Sure, he could force-lift-impale-kill, but that sort of quick efficient kill is completely uncharacteristic of him, since his defining character flaw is, as mentioned above, is his inability to conceive of losing and thus a tendency to take huge risks. It's not in his nature to consider any opponent an equal, or even a serious threat at all particularly for a non-Force-user.

But its not, like I said, at the end of revenge of the sith, he just straight up slaughtered the jedi that came to arrest him. Im not entirely certain if he threw the match with mace or decided to make a virtue out of the fact that he was losing to snare anakin, but either way, he didnt really mess around at all. And thats the only time we ever see him in a position of actual combat. Thats our real baseline for how he acts in a fight. He may prefer to act the role of puppet master sitting on his throne, but when he had to fight, he picked up a blade and killed, quick, clean, and easy.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-23, 03:31 AM
But its not, like I said, at the end of revenge of the sith, he just straight up slaughtered the jedi that came to arrest him. Im not entirely certain if he threw the match with mace or decided to make a virtue out of the fact that he was losing to snare anakin, but either way, he didnt really mess around at all. And thats the only time we ever see him in a position of actual combat. Thats our real baseline for how he acts in a fight. He may prefer to act the role of puppet master sitting on his throne, but when he had to fight, he picked up a blade and killed, quick, clean, and easy.

Actually I think the fight with the jedi who came to arrest him is him going all out. Wasn't Mace Windu supposed to be the greatest jedi fighter (as in best jedi at fighting not necessarily most powerful) who brought in guards to help. Palpatine knew of his reputation and went all out and still lost. If Anakin didn't intervene he would have died. Sure he was counting on that intervention (I'm sure if he thought that Anakin was ignoring him he would have fled, then issued order 66)

So actually I will count this as an eventual win for Palpatine. Sure he loses the initial Batman fight, but he's just taken captive. With no way to shut down his abilities he should be able to escape. Once he does he will go all out in round 2 and kill Batman as effectively as possible.

hamishspence
2012-02-23, 04:36 AM
Palpatine (in the EU) is aware of just how useful and formidable non-sensitives can be.

The Imperial Guard (his bodyguards in red) are normally non-sensitives.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-23, 07:54 AM
So actually I will count this as an eventual win for Palpatine. Sure he loses the initial Batman fight, but he's just taken captive. With no way to shut down his abilities he should be able to escape. Once he does he will go all out in round 2 and kill Batman as effectively as possible.

Comic book universes have a variety of prisons to shut down supervillains of every type and keep them imprisoned. Now, do said prisons usually fail at some point and the villain escapes? Yes. That's kind of the point, otherwise we wouldn't have the reocurring villain. This goes with my earlier point with saying "it has to be to the death in versus threads" with characters who no matter what are never going to kill. KO and imprisonment have to be general win conditions, otherwise it's pointless to put most hero characters in versus threads period.

Besides, if anyone's going to benefit from multiple encounters, it's Batman. The guy who obsesses over contingency plans and is constantly developing new technology and tactics to stop any possible threat to Gotham and to the earth.

Traab
2012-02-23, 08:53 AM
Comic book universes have a variety of prisons to shut down supervillains of every type and keep them imprisoned. Now, do said prisons usually fail at some point and the villain escapes? Yes. That's kind of the point, otherwise we wouldn't have the reocurring villain. This goes with my earlier point with saying "it has to be to the death in versus threads" with characters who no matter what are never going to kill. KO and imprisonment have to be general win conditions, otherwise it's pointless to put most hero characters in versus threads period.

Besides, if anyone's going to benefit from multiple encounters, it's Batman. The guy who obsesses over contingency plans and is constantly developing new technology and tactics to stop any possible threat to Gotham and to the earth.

They would both benefit from multiple encounters. Palpatine is a pretty big planner himself. The main advantage batman would have depends on how much of a support base palpatine builds up before the fight starts. Batman has access to virtually unlimited funds, the best equipment the dc universe has to offer, and the personal skill to assemble whatever he needs to.

As for blocking palpatines powers, the only thing I could think of would be a constant IV drip that keeps him sedated. I mean, his powers are basically to be able to use the energy found in EVERYTHING. You cant just slap him in a plastic room, or keep him away from plants, or even make him wear a helmet so he keeps his thoughts to himself. If he is able to think, then he is able to use the force.

Devonix
2012-02-23, 09:05 AM
They would both benefit from multiple encounters. Palpatine is a pretty big planner himself. The main advantage batman would have depends on how much of a support base palpatine builds up before the fight starts. Batman has access to virtually unlimited funds, the best equipment the dc universe has to offer, and the personal skill to assemble whatever he needs to.

As for blocking palpatines powers, the only thing I could think of would be a constant IV drip that keeps him sedated. I mean, his powers are basically to be able to use the energy found in EVERYTHING. You cant just slap him in a plastic room, or keep him away from plants, or even make him wear a helmet so he keeps his thoughts to himself. If he is able to think, then he is able to use the force.

Actually I allways considered Force use to be telepathic and telenetic control over their environment. As such Psi Dampners which exist in pretty much every comic universe would stop him. Any device that interferes with the brain's ability to focus would shut down a force user.

Omergideon
2012-02-23, 09:08 AM
Palpatine does go all out, and fast, against the Jedi who go to arrest him. 3 are taken down in very short order and for the most part it is a very grounded fight. When in trouble he can, and does, use very fast fighting strategies. And again we see many times how Jedi fight non force-sensitives. They rip them to pieces in seconds with no fancy moves, just simple and effective fighting strategy.

ericgrau
2012-02-23, 06:20 PM
I'm gonna agree with palpatine villanizes batman and turns everyone against him then batman simply assassinates palpatine anyway. Palpatine sees it coming moments before it happens, jumps out of the way and straight into the trap batman laid way ahead of time. Let's say a large bomb or a collapsing room too large to be dodged with a short hop. It's amazing how few things lightsabers are effective against besides other light sabers and blasters. Then batman kills everyone working with palpatine and while everyone hates him at first eventually they dig up the wreckage and find out the truth.

Palpatine wins an open fight though that's largely irrelevant.

Steven
2012-02-23, 06:51 PM
Actually I allways considered Force use to be telepathic and telenetic control over their environment. As such Psi Dampners which exist in pretty much every comic universe would stop him. Any device that interferes with the brain's ability to focus would shut down a force user.

The fact that you consider it so doesn't mean much. We're told that the force is an energy that is everywhere and that a Jedi can manipulate that energy.
If Batman made the same assumption you do and tried to use something that dampens psychic abilities that could be a fatal mistake.
Just because the end result of two things look similar doesn't mean that they use the same mechanisms.

Aotrs Commander
2012-02-23, 08:11 PM
I'm gonna agree with palpatine villanizes batman and turns everyone against him then batman simply assassinates palpatine anyway. Palpatine sees it coming moments before it happens, jumps out of the way and straight into the trap batman laid way ahead of time. Let's say a large bomb or a collapsing room too large to be dodged with a short hop. It's amazing how few things lightsabers are effective against besides other light sabers and blasters. Then batman kills everyone working with palpatine and while everyone hates him at first eventually they dig up the wreckage and find out the truth.

Palpatine wins an open fight though that's largely irrelevant.

Except for the whole "Batman doesn't kill, no, not, even then, even though he probably really, really should kill people like the Joker, " which is one of the more quintessential aspects to his character. For all his evil Palpatine is still human - more so than a lot of the other opponents Bats has faced, and little different to the Joker or Lex Luthor (et al) so I don't think Bats killing him is an option.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying if Batman did kill Palpatine, then ultimately, Palpatine wins, because Batman wouldn't be Batman anymore; and Palpatime would have forced Bats into a position that pretty much no-one else ever has (with the possibly exception of Darkseid1.)



1Who was arguably a bigger threat on the fundemental level; Palpatine only wants to dominate (and he's quite good to his servants...relatively speaking...!), not eradicate, as I understand it.

DoctorIllithid
2012-02-23, 11:36 PM
I hope everyone realizes that Palpatine's power in regards to the Force puts him at least three steps ahead of Batman at all times. Yes, that's right. At. All. Times.

No, not even then.

Devonix
2012-02-23, 11:56 PM
Except for the whole "Batman doesn't kill, no, not, even then, even though he probably really, really should kill people like the Joker, " which is one of the more quintessential aspects to his character. For all his evil Palpatine is still human - more so than a lot of the other opponents Bats has faced, and little different to the Joker or Lex Luthor (et al) so I don't think Bats killing him is an option.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying if Batman did kill Palpatine, then ultimately, Palpatine wins, because Batman wouldn't be Batman anymore; and Palpatime would have forced Bats into a position that pretty much no-one else ever has (with the possibly exception of Darkseid1.)



1Who was arguably a bigger threat on the fundemental level; Palpatine only wants to dominate (and he's quite good to his servants...relatively speaking...!), not eradicate, as I understand it.

Darksied's goal was pretty much instrumentality with him at the core. But since he was injured from the fight with Orion he was a wound in the universe and simply existing was causing reality to unravel. If he didn't die then the universe would end.

Aotrs Commander
2012-02-24, 05:32 AM
Darksied's goal was pretty much instrumentality with him at the core. But since he was injured from the fight with Orion he was a wound in the universe and simply existing was causing reality to unravel. If he didn't die then the universe would end.

Yes, thank you, I'm only passingly familar with the events. I figured it'd be something on that sort of scale.

So, yes, my point does indeed stand. Unless Palpatine somehow is going kill the universe by existing, he is not even remotely in the same level of threat that would cause Bats to break his moral code; and if he did, then, really no-one has won.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-24, 07:19 AM
I hope everyone realizes that Palpatine's power in regards to the Force puts him at least three steps ahead of Batman at all times. Yes, that's right. At. All. Times.

No, not even then.

Based on what, exactly? Force Visions are far from, say, SW's version of Contact Any Plane 20 Questions - even Palpatine, one of the best with the power, didn't have an infallible sense of the future, and what he did have was
slanted by his belief that they were definite visions instead of possible futures.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Vision


EDIT: So Bats, in addition to winning, only 'wins' if he does so non-lethally. That puts the fight much more on an even keel despite all the disadvantages Palps is at in this fight.

deuterio12
2012-02-24, 07:40 AM
EDIT: So Bats, in addition to winning, only 'wins' if he does so non-lethally. That puts the fight much more on an even keel despite all the disadvantages Palps is at in this fight.

Really?

Because last time I checked, Palpatine executed a mastemind plan that resulted in 99% of the jedi population to be slaughtered in a matter of seconds despite they all being scattered across a galaxy.

Where are people geting all the "wah Palpatine only kills in personal duels wah" thing? He's butchered plenty of enemies while siting on another planet!

And if anything, even batman has trouble when facing an enemy that isn't even on the same planet as him.

Palpatine only risks his own hide when he sees the potential for a new disciple. The rest of the time, he just sends his minions to do the dirty work and makes sure he himself is in some safe location.

Devonix
2012-02-24, 07:56 AM
Really?

Because last time I checked, Palpatine executed a mastemind plan that resulted in 99% of the jedi population to be slaughtered in a matter of seconds despite they all being scattered across a galaxy.

Where are people geting all the "wah Palpatine only kills in personal duels wah" thing? He's butchered plenty of enemies while siting on another planet!

And if anything, even batman has trouble when facing an enemy that isn't even on the same planet as him.

Palpatine only risks his own hide when he sees the potential for a new disciple. The rest of the time, he just sends his minions to do the dirty work and makes sure he himself is in some safe location.


Yes but we aren't giving Palpatine the 30 years or so head start it would take to do that sort of thing like killing the Jedi

Oindoth
2012-02-24, 07:58 AM
Batman could just as easily "assassinate" Palpatine with nonlethal ordinance designed to knock him out. Especially given the Jedi's general weakness to Area-of-Effect weapons. Palpatine simply can't move fast enough, nor catch quickly enough, to be unfettered by a barrage of ice grenades, even with the limited precog (the likes of which Batman has beaten before).

Aotrs Commander
2012-02-24, 08:13 AM
EDIT: So Bats, in addition to winning, only 'wins' if he does so non-lethally. That puts the fight much more on an even keel despite all the disadvantages Palps is at in this fight.

I think that has to be a reasonable condition, for the same reason Palpatine isn't just going to force-lift-lightsabre him as you pointed out earlier, as we are comparing the characters, not just two dudes with their respective powers.



For the record, I believe it would be a reasonably even match, actually. Palpatine really shined in deception and manipulation (not unlike, say, Lex Luthor); it's that while he lacks, say, Luthor's scientific genious, he also has super-powers of his own to back it up. Which, while dangerous, are not completely out of Batman's league; Bats has gone up against for fairly heavy hitters after all! (What with ith him being superhuman in practise, despite all the blurb to contrary.) But I don't believe for a second it would have been a curb-stomp for either side.



Though I could also see Palpatine being some sort of BBEG boss monster fighting a whole crowd of the Justice League if it was dramatically appropriate and made for a good fight scene. (Luthor did that once or twice in the DCAU.) Of course, at that point, he would have to lose in the end, of course; and you'd have moved out of the vrs thread arena into "what makes a good story."



Actually, the thought of Palpatine's comically nonplussed reaction on seeing a dude dressed in bat (mynock?) suit actually wanting to fight him would be priceless...

The Glyphstone
2012-02-24, 08:21 AM
Really?

Because last time I checked, Palpatine executed a mastemind plan that resulted in 99% of the jedi population to be slaughtered in a matter of seconds despite they all being scattered across a galaxy.

Where are people geting all the "wah Palpatine only kills in personal duels wah" thing? He's butchered plenty of enemies while siting on another planet!

And if anything, even batman has trouble when facing an enemy that isn't even on the same planet as him.

Palpatine only risks his own hide when he sees the potential for a new disciple. The rest of the time, he just sends his minions to do the dirty work and makes sure he himself is in some safe location.

Exactly. He doesn't have any minions, he doesn't have decades of prep time, and the battlefield is a very small and semi-isolated environment that one of the combatants knows intimately well and would be highly likely to detect any new 'big player' in town regardless of how well he concealed himself.

Besides, no one has said he only kills in personal duels. People have said he's at his weakest in personal duels, because he's an overconfident egotist who (because Force Vision explicitly cannot show his own death) believes he is invincible and immortal.

hamishspence
2012-02-24, 10:31 AM
I think that has to be a reasonable condition, for the same reason Palpatine isn't just going to force-lift-lightsabre him as you pointed out earlier, as we are comparing the characters, not just two dudes with their respective powers.

For the record, I believe it would be a reasonably even match, actually. Palpatine really shined in deception and manipulation (not unlike, say, Lex Luthor); it's that while he lacks, say, Luthor's scientific genious, he also has super-powers of his own to back it up. Which, while dangerous, are not completely out of Batman's league; Bats has gone up against for fairly heavy hitters after all! (What with ith him being superhuman in practise, despite all the blurb to contrary.) But I don't believe for a second it would have been a curb-stomp for either side.

Might depend which Palpatine, as well. Palpatine the Senator, or even Palpatine the Supreme Chancellor, might be much more aware of the dangers a smart non-sensitive could pose to him than Palpatine the Emperor.

If Palpatine was simply "dropped in Gotham" without any warning- what would he do, how quickly would he begin to accumulate power, and at what point would his activities come to Batman's attention? Assuming there's no "warning sign" telling Batman that someone just crossed over from another universe.

Traab
2012-02-24, 10:55 AM
Exactly. He doesn't have any minions, he doesn't have decades of prep time, and the battlefield is a very small and semi-isolated environment that one of the combatants knows intimately well and would be highly likely to detect any new 'big player' in town regardless of how well he concealed himself.

Besides, no one has said he only kills in personal duels. People have said he's at his weakest in personal duels, because he's an overconfident egotist who (because Force Vision explicitly cannot show his own death) believes he is invincible and immortal.

But how can you claim that when he has gotten into all of two actual fights, once against mace and 4 jedi mooks, and once against yoda? He spanked the jedi mooks in seconds and played a game with mace to get anakin to join him willingly, then beat the crap out of yoda while laughing hysterically. Actual combat may not be his preferred method of killing people, but its hardly a weakness.

People keep harping on how batman has faced similar powers before. Thats great and all, but the force isnt some terrestrial source of power batman can just activate his Bat-Signal Jammer tm and shut down with a smirk. This isnt something he can just put on bat suit version #65346534 and make him immune to it. There is nothing stopping palpatine from picking up batmans bat mobile and beating him to death with it. (Like he tried on yoda with the senate seats, so none of this, "he hasnt dont that before" crap) You talk about aoe weapons that bats could use on him, these are the same weapons palpatine can force grab and throw right back at him. (Once again a power we see jedi and sith using from time to time)

Batman has nothing concrete to use that gives him an actual advantage palpatine cant counter with relative ease. Palpatine on the other hand has a half dozen abilities and toys that batman cant do squat to stop. And this is from a guy we only see fight twice. Im not even counting the fact that we almost certainly havent seen everything palpatine can do with the force from the two whole fights he gets into in the movies.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-24, 11:55 AM
But how can you claim that when he has gotten into all of two actual fights, once against mace and 4 jedi mooks, and once against yoda? He spanked the jedi mooks in seconds and played a game with mace to get anakin to join him willingly, then beat the crap out of yoda while laughing hysterically. Actual combat may not be his preferred method of killing people, but its hardly a weakness.

Exactly - he didn't take the threat Mace presented seriously, and it almost killed him. After he lost his lightsaber and was being electrocuted with his own lightning, he was really close to death; only the fact that Anakin managed to show up then and save him kept his plan and life intact. If Anakin had been even a minute slower in getting there, Palpatine would have been crispy old man bacon.

The fight with Yoda was a curbstomp in his favor, and justifiably - 60-year old man versus 2-foot tall 900-year old shriveled geezer, mexican jumping bean skills or not, should be an easy fight. He toyed with Yoda, playing around with the senate disks instead of just going in and killing him. There wasn't any chance in his mind that his plans would have any risk of failure, so he dragged out fighting Yoda for the fun of it.

And then there's the third fight we've seen him in...you know, the one where he was gleefully torturing Luke Skywalker with lightning and completely oblivious to his own apprentice's presence until Vader picked him up one-handed and dropped him down the reactor shaft? A master plotter should have at least considered the possibility that inviting someone to be his new apprentice while the current apprentice was standing right there beside them might provoke some kind of reaction, even without the fact that said guy being tortured was his apprentice's son.

Traab
2012-02-24, 12:11 PM
Exactly - he didn't take the threat Mace presented seriously, and it almost killed him. After he lost his lightsaber and was being electrocuted with his own lightning, he was really close to death; only the fact that Anakin managed to show up then and save him kept his plan and life intact. If Anakin had been even a minute slower in getting there, Palpatine would have been crispy old man bacon.

The fight with Yoda was a curbstomp in his favor, and justifiably - 60-year old man versus 2-foot tall 900-year old shriveled geezer, mexican jumping bean skills or not, should be an easy fight. He toyed with Yoda, playing around with the senate disks instead of just going in and killing him. There wasn't any chance in his mind that his plans would have any risk of failure, so he dragged out fighting Yoda for the fun of it.

And then there's the third fight we've seen him in...you know, the one where he was gleefully torturing Luke Skywalker with lightning and completely oblivious to his own apprentice's presence until Vader picked him up one-handed and dropped him down the reactor shaft? A master plotter should have at least considered the possibility that inviting someone to be his new apprentice while the current apprentice was standing right there beside them might provoke some kind of reaction, even without the fact that said guy being tortured was his apprentice's son.

He didnt even try to zap mace with lightning until AFTER anakin showed up. He did it on purpose to force anakin to choose the dark side. The whole thing was an act. He intentionally kept up the lightning, even though it was hurting him, all to make it look like mace was killing him and to get anakin to help. He could have stopped using it at any point and been fine. Mace wasnt going to kill him, he was going to arrest him. Had anakin not shown up, he would have been captured briefly, then probably found a way to escape, most likely by twisting anakin some more when he inevitably came to talk to palpatine in his cell. Thats assuming his own guards didnt give palpatine the chance to escape before they got out of his office. It was all a calculated risk and it paid off big time.

As for the "third" fight. That wasnt a fight, it was palpatine torturing a prisoner. It was a conversion attempt, not a battle. Vader picked him up from behind, walked two steps, and tossed him down a conveniently placed bottomless pit. Yeah, torturing luke in front of vader wasnt bright, but its not like he had much choice. His entire goal was to get luke pissed off enough to attack him, and palpatine was getting very old. I doubt he could have fought very well at that point if he had to. Thats why vader had to be there. To fight luke, to make him give in to his anger, and to make him fall from the light side to the dark. And yes, recruiting a replacement apprentice in front of your current apprentice is a very silly thing to do.

The Glyphstone
2012-02-24, 12:45 PM
Mace wanted to kill him, actually - it was Anakin who was arguing for his arrest, and Mace's refusal that triggered his betrayal out of desperation.

It was a risk, and yeah, it paid off big time, but it could have just as easily gone the other way (as it did in RotJ). That's the point I was making, that Palpatine's defining flaw is his tendency to take gratuitous and unnecessary risks, including his own personal safety, because of his over-dependency on Force Visions and the belief that anything he sees is guaranteed rather than possible. It was also canon that Palpatine considered non-sensitives as lesser beings, as he wrote in 'The Weakness of Inferiors', only worthy as followers and slaves.

Traab
2012-02-24, 01:05 PM
Mace wanted to kill him, actually - it was Anakin who was arguing for his arrest, and Mace's refusal that triggered his betrayal out of desperation.

It was a risk, and yeah, it paid off big time, but it could have just as easily gone the other way (as it did in RotJ). That's the point I was making, that Palpatine's defining flaw is his tendency to take gratuitous and unnecessary risks, including his own personal safety, because of his over-dependency on Force Visions and the belief that anything he sees is guaranteed rather than possible. It was also canon that Palpatine considered non-sensitives as lesser beings, as he wrote in 'The Weakness of Inferiors', only worthy as followers and slaves.

Yeah, he managed to force anakin to join him. Do you really think palpatine would have sat there and let mace kill him if it came down to it? Had anakin shown he would let it happen, im sure palpatine had some sort of move ready to keep himself alive. Palpatine was playing possum the entire time with his force lightning and crying how he was weak and exhausted. As for the whole thing with luke and vader, meh, it wasnt that he was taking a huge risk, its that he was so focused on luke that he ignored vader. He made a mistake, and everything was just lined up perfectly to get him killed because of it. Had there not been a bottomless pit available 5 feet to the left of palpatine, I bet vader would have keeled over a few steps later, then palpatine would have finished torturing luke.