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View Full Version : Martial characters have ToB, but what do rogues get?



gallagher
2012-02-12, 02:22 PM
ToB gives martial characters a tier 3 option that gives them more options than "i swing"

Rogues, ninjas, scouts, and spellthieves do not have much that gives them the versatility in combat like spells, powers, and now maneuvers. yeah there can be some creativity into how to get sneak attacks, but it isnt quite the same.

while you can just dip into one of these classes for trapfinding, that isnt what i am aiming at. does anyone know of a potential fix for this problem?

Urpriest
2012-02-12, 02:23 PM
Swordsages are in ToB.

If you prefer something more skill-focused, there's the Factotum and Psychic Rogue.

Seerow
2012-02-12, 02:28 PM
Swordsages are in ToB.

If you prefer something more skill-focused, there's the Factotum and Psychic Rogue.

But what did the rogue get?!

gallagher
2012-02-12, 02:31 PM
factotums are great and psychic rogues were nice. i think i phrased my question incorrectly. i was wondering if anyone attempted a mechanic similar to maneuvers or spells, specifically for our scout player.

but i guess that shadow hand and a good skill selection can pretty much make a swordsage cover the scout role

Jade Dragon
2012-02-12, 02:40 PM
Factotums get spells, and psychic rogues get powers. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, Arcane Dilettante is great for stuff like Spider Climb, Invisibility, and Fly.

But yeah, one of those two or swordsage is the closest you'll get.

Coidzor
2012-02-12, 02:41 PM
They get low opportunity cost ToB dips, decent casting PrCs in the form of assassin and chameleon, decent casting progression PrCs in the form of unseen seer and the uncanny(?) trickster, the UMD skill as a class skill so any magic item they find or buy can be used by them.

Also, they get to pass on the reins to the Factotaii.

Chronos
2012-02-12, 02:43 PM
Asking for what rogues get in battle is like asking what barbarians get in social encounters. Yes, you do have an option you can use, but that's really not what you're best at. The rogue's primary purposes are out of combat.

Need_A_Life
2012-02-12, 02:46 PM
Well, since Rogues-alikes are basically "be martial/spellcasting... while sneaking," ToB, Spell Compendium etc. benefit rogues every bit as much.

Swordsage gives you access to Shadow Hand, which is almost pure underhanded, sneaky abilities.

Use Magic Device for Invisibility, Overland Flight, Scorching Ray etc. (heck, this is core) gives you access to a bunch of abilities that compliment your own abilities.

TL;DR: Tome of Battle is for rogues too!

DeltaEmil
2012-02-12, 03:01 PM
TOB is for everyone. Even for spellcasters (and them psionics).

Big Fau
2012-02-12, 03:21 PM
...The Tier 4's didn't exactly need much help. But the Rogue got Daring Outlaw.


The differences between Tier 4 and Tier 3 are similar in respects to the differences between Tier 2 and Tier 1 (minus most of the game-breaking abilities). It doesn't take much optimization to bump a Tier 4 class into Tier 3, so they don't need as much help.

JaronK
2012-02-12, 03:29 PM
Others have said it, but I have to agree... warriors got ToB, scouts got Factotum and Beguiler.

JaronK

Libertad
2012-02-12, 05:47 PM
I can't speak for the Factotum, but I can't recommend the Beguiler highly enough for a good "sneaky" build.

They have trapfinding, a good number of skill points, and use Intelligence as their key modifier, and can cast in light armor. They also have a good, versatile spell system (think of it like Spells Known: all on the list for this level of spells).

Kaeso
2012-02-12, 05:52 PM
But what did the rogue get?!

The rogue got 9 levels of flavourful casting, ie. the beguiler.
Factotum and beguiler put sneaks on tier 3, just like the ToB classes (and heavily beefed up barbarians). Wizards and clerics are still mortal gods, but they can't brush the sneaks and warriors aside like they're nothing, they're still bloody useful. Actually, if you replace them with their tier 2 equivalents, you actually get the standard party (Warblade, Beguiler, Favoured Soul, Sorcerer) where everybody is useful! :smallsmile:

playswithfire
2012-02-12, 06:01 PM
But what did the rogue get?!

Complete Scoundrel? Though I guess that mainly gave them more uses for their sneak attack (ambush feats) and skill tricks.

If homebrew is an option, the link in my signature includes a class called the Mercenary which was basically supposed to be for rogues and scouts what swordsage was for monk and there's a "Partial Adept" (slower maneuver progression, kind of like the bard spellcasting progression) ACF for the Ninja and Swashbuckler

gallagher
2012-02-12, 06:33 PM
Complete Scoundrel? Though I guess that mainly gave them more uses for their sneak attack (ambush feats) and skill tricks.

If homebrew is an option, the link in my signature includes a class called the Mercenary which was basically supposed to be for rogues and scouts what swordsage was for monk and there's a "Partial Adept" (slower maneuver progression, kind of like the bard spellcasting progression) ACF for the Ninja and Swashbuckler

i guess that complete scoundrel is something. its just that with ToB, you dont have to spend your precious feats and skill points like you do with ambush feats and skill tricks

ShneekeyTheLost
2012-02-12, 06:34 PM
Scout-type characters got the following options:

1) Swordsge. Did you want to be a stealthy guy who can shiv you in the back? This is that. I am [worth] Ten Ninjas

2) Beguiler. Did you ever want to be the Grey Mouser? Done. For those of you who are unfamiliar with this reference, they are a skillmonkey class with up to 9th level Illusion/Enchantment spells, and a handful of other highly useful ones as well (haste/slow...). If you want to be a rogue who can shut down encounters with magic, and be a sneaky bastard... this is it.

3) Factotum. Extra precision-based damage, insane Int synergy, spells, divine stuff, extra actions per turn... what's not to love?

4) Scout. Skirmish is pretty easy to pull off, although some dipping is probably required to get this to be fully functional. Swift Hunter makes this a damage machine in addition to a skillmonkey (since Rangers still get 6+int skill points per level, you can keep all your stealth/scouting skills capped), WhirlPounceBarian dip gives you melee damage output.

Of the four, only Swordsage doesn't pick up Trapfinding, if you care about that. Which can be easily fixed with a PrC or a dip.

hex0
2012-02-12, 06:57 PM
decent casting progression PrCs

Telflammor Shadowlord, Trapsmith, and Chameleon. :smalltongue:

Somewhat honorable mentions: Temple Raider of Olidamara and Hoardstealer. :smallmad:

Knaight
2012-02-12, 06:58 PM
while you can just dip into one of these classes for trapfinding, that isnt what i am aiming at. does anyone know of a potential fix for this problem?

I'd take the Esoterica Radica track from Legend, and call it a day.

Wings of Peace
2012-02-12, 07:00 PM
Rogues get Craven. Duh. :smalltongue:

hex0
2012-02-12, 07:16 PM
Rogues get Craven. Duh. :smalltongue:

Or the feat less likely to get the banhammer, Telling Blow.

Talionis
2012-02-12, 08:07 PM
They get low opportunity cost ToB dips, decent casting PrCs in the form of assassin and chameleon, decent casting progression PrCs in the form of unseen seer and the uncanny(?) trickster, the UMD skill as a class skill so any magic item they find or buy can be used by them.

Also, they get to pass on the reins to the Factotaii.

ToB is great for dips. Two levels of Swordsage give you Assassin Stance. Martial Feat grants Assassin Stance.

Unseen Seer can get you Hunter's Sense. Assassin is flavorful.

But you still have skills possibly better than Factotum, not that Factotum is bad.

But a lot of what Rogues do is non-combat.