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bluntpencil
2012-02-16, 10:27 AM
Right, so I've been toying with the idea of a classless 40K RPG, using the base rules from Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Black Crusade.

Basically, I like the 'buy anything you want' thing that Black Crusade has, and have been thinking of making a loyalist game with its rules.

Character creation would be a bit different, though.

I'm thinking doing something similar to Rogue Trader, to determine starting skills and talents, as well as Homeworlds and maybe special abilities. After creation, though, characters advance the same.

I would let the player pick a Homeworld, from the Rogue Trader books, then pick a Profession, which would give a base set of skills and talents.

Then, the character would pick a special ability, such as Adroit (from Black Crusade, for Renegades), Astropath, Navigator, Pure Faith, Tech Priest (from Rogue Trader) or Sanctioned Psyker (similar to Astropath, but for Primaris Psykers and similar).

Finally, the character would be given some experience to start off with. They would use the Tier system from Black Crusade, but would always count as unaligned, unless an alignment system could be worked out. Some loyalist talents, like Faith talents, would be thrown in at the higher tiers.

Corruption and Insanity would work like in Rogue Trader, as would Psychic Powers. Influence would replace Black Crusade's Infamy, working more akin to Profit Factor. Fate points would work as in Rogue Trader.



I think this way of creating characters, and using the base Black Crusade rules (better rules for multiple attacks, autofire et cetera), will allow players to create competent Inquisitorial agents, Arbites Judges, Underworld, Tech-Priests and similar, instead of bumbling oafs and conscripts from the start, and without having insanely unbalanced Ascension levels of power. The characters would begin as competent, if unproven, agents of higher powers.

I think suitable professions to offer as starting packages should be suitable generic, such as; Academic, Criminal, Law Enforcement, Military, Occultist, Religious.

It should be reasonably simple, and allow for some cool, varied characters.

bluntpencil
2012-02-17, 08:56 AM
Professions, to begin, will be worth roughly the same amount of experience each. Some get some extra, since proficiencies, for example, are reasonably weak talents compared to others, especially when a lot are offered.

Here are some rough examples:

Everyone starts with Linguistics (Low Gothic)

Academic

Skills:
Common Lore (Any one)
Common Lore (Imperium)
Common Lore (Tech) or Trade (Scribe)
Linguistics (High Gothic) or Secret Language (Techna Lingua)
Scholastic Lore (Any one)
Scholastic Lore (Legend) or Tech-Use

May upgrade any Linguistics or Secret Language skill to +10, upgrade Tech Use to +10 or take Commerce or Medicae.

Talents:
Foresight
Talented (any Intelligence skill)
Unremarkable or Peer (Any one)
Weapon Training (Las), (Primary) or (SP)

Criminal

Skills:
Awareness
Blather
Charm or Intimidate
Common Lore (Imperium)
Common Lore (Underworld)
Deceive +10
Dodge

Talents:
Peer (Underworld)
Quick Draw
Weapon Training (Primary and SP)

Law Enforcement

Skills:
Common Lore (Any one)
Common Lore (Imperium)
Interrogate or Inquiry
Intimidate
Scholastic Lore (Judgement)
Scrutiny or Search

Talents:
Peer (Adeptus Arbites) or Peer (Enforcers)
Takedown
Weapon Proficiency (Primary, Shock, SP)

Military

Skills:
Athletics or Operate (any one)
Awareness
Common Lore (War)
Dodge or Parry
Intimidate
Survival

Talents:
Weapon Training (Las, Primary, SP)
Weapon Training (Any one)
Sound Constitution (1)

Occultist
Skills:
Awareness or Deceive
Common Lore (any one)
Forbidden Lore (any one)
Forbidden Lore (any one) +10
Scholastic Lore (any one)
Scrutiny

Talents:
Light Sleeper
Paranoia
Rival (Ecclesiarchy)
Unremarkable or Peer (Any)
Weapon Training (Las) or Weapon Training (Primary) or Weapon Training (SP)

Religious

Skills:
Charm or Intimidate
Common Lore (Ecclesiarchy)
Common Lore (Imperial Creed)
Common Lore (Imperium)
Linguistics (High Gothic)
Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed)
Speak Language (High Gothic)
Trade (scribe, singer or valet)

Talents:
Weapon Training (Primary, SP)
Weapon Training (Chain) or Weapon Training (Flame) or Radiant Presence
Peer (Ecclesiarchy)

king.com
2012-02-19, 10:39 PM
Im someone whos is not a fan of classless systems (often makes optimization problems 100 times larger) so take what I say with that in mind.

Firstly, I need to know why you would want this new kind of system as opposed to a 5000XP starting Dark Heresy game (most characters have a large variety of choice and are fairly competent by this level)

Heres a few pitfalls you might run into:

Your biggest concern is providing valid reasons for players to take 80% of the skills and talents there. Black Crusade tries to do this with a Tier system but ultimately I've never met someone who didn't just wait and pick up the skill they needed anyway if the benefit outweighed the cost as significantly as it does in BC.

If your using Black Crusades base rules, you end up with more than competent characters but rather insanely powerful ones. With the +10 to hit for standard attacks and +10 for aim your running (assuming rogue trader creation of 25+2d10) average of 56 base ballistic skill. You add +10 from training, +10 half range and a person is on a 76 to hit in the average fit scenarios. With the general low health of people, everyone is going to be dying left right and centre. The survival of the DH/RT/DW/BC system dont lend themselves well to people outside of power armour when these kionds of success rates are brought into effect. Not to mention if its like BC/RT in terms of financial support, everyone can take an accurate weapon and bump that up to 86%.

Similiarly if you take away the mandatory risk element of Dark Heresy psykers and allow them to simply wait for the perils of the warp reroll talent and then rapidly make everyone useless. Since they can pick from anything, the psyker takes the skills/talents which are cheap and cover his weak points (dodge, talky skills maybe) and then dumps everything else into powers/psy rating/willpower.

Also one quick question but are Influence points purely used for acquisition ala RT or also as the replacement for fate points like Black Crusade?

Leon
2012-02-19, 11:06 PM
(often makes optimization problems 100 times larger)

How is that a problem?

king.com
2012-02-19, 11:47 PM
How is that a problem?

I don't follow could you elaborate?

bluntpencil
2012-02-20, 06:23 AM
Im someone whos is not a fan of classless systems (often makes optimization problems 100 times larger) so take what I say with that in mind.

Firstly, I need to know why you would want this new kind of system as opposed to a 5000XP starting Dark Heresy game (most characters have a large variety of choice and are fairly competent by this level)

Heres a few pitfalls you might run into:

Your biggest concern is providing valid reasons for players to take 80% of the skills and talents there. Black Crusade tries to do this with a Tier system but ultimately I've never met someone who didn't just wait and pick up the skill they needed anyway if the benefit outweighed the cost as significantly as it does in BC.

If your using Black Crusades base rules, you end up with more than competent characters but rather insanely powerful ones. With the +10 to hit for standard attacks and +10 for aim your running (assuming rogue trader creation of 25+2d10) average of 56 base ballistic skill. You add +10 from training, +10 half range and a person is on a 76 to hit in the average fit scenarios. With the general low health of people, everyone is going to be dying left right and centre. The survival of the DH/RT/DW/BC system dont lend themselves well to people outside of power armour when these kionds of success rates are brought into effect. Not to mention if its like BC/RT in terms of financial support, everyone can take an accurate weapon and bump that up to 86%.

Similiarly if you take away the mandatory risk element of Dark Heresy psykers and allow them to simply wait for the perils of the warp reroll talent and then rapidly make everyone useless. Since they can pick from anything, the psyker takes the skills/talents which are cheap and cover his weak points (dodge, talky skills maybe) and then dumps everything else into powers/psy rating/willpower.

Also one quick question but are Influence points purely used for acquisition ala RT or also as the replacement for fate points like Black Crusade?
Regarding valid reasons to take 80% of the skills, I've tried to make some of the 'useless' skills compulsory at character creation.

I think a possibility to make various skills get bought would be to award various 'types' of experience. This will need work, or a competent GM, though. For example, if the players were in a tough fight, I'd give 'Combat XP', experience that could be spent on combat-related talents, skills and stats. Other types of experience could be 'knowledge', 'social', 'stealth' et cetera.

Regarding power, I'm cool with competent characters. People dying easily suits the setting, in my opinion. Standard attacks giving +10 is fine, since it is single shot only. Hitting the majority of the time with a competent character is just fine, I think. I think an Imperial Stormtrooper should hit more than he misses, for instance.

The problem with psykers is true, yes, but even with the re-roll talent, that will only make players cocky and make mistakes.

I may make actual psychic powers cost a lot of experience, so that if they want to be powerful psykers it will cost a lot of experience, and leave them very specialised.

Regarding Influence, it would not act as Fate points like in Black Crusade, since that would interact badly with the Faith talents.

bluntpencil
2012-02-23, 08:43 AM
Okay, so further thought will have skills work like in Black Crusade, so Parry will be a skill, for instance.

Also; regarding Psychics, and balancing them, input is very welcome!

Talkkno
2012-02-27, 05:57 PM
You might want to take a look at N0-1_H3r3 homebrew stuff, its on the FFG forums. He's converted a lot of the powers to be like Black Crusade.

king.com
2012-02-28, 02:27 AM
Okay, so further thought will have skills work like in Black Crusade, so Parry will be a skill, for instance.

Also; regarding Psychics, and balancing them, input is very welcome!

Thing about parry i've always been confused about is the idea that dodge is simply better in every way. Can i make a recommendation that its a bit cheaper or everyone has it start as a trained skill while dodge need to be purchased (meaning parry is ahead evening out the weakness).

When it comes to psykers i really love the dark heresy method of handling it. You are the most powerful member of the party but if you try use a power everything goes to hell. Remember that psyker is not bound to the Emperor the same way as an astropath is so you can justify them as unbound psykers in black crusade (i think that justifies as always chance of perils though i dont have the book).

I know you want higher powered characters but the chances of failure in DH are so small that can usually get away with it....until they dont :smallbiggrin:

bluntpencil
2012-02-28, 06:24 AM
Thing about parry i've always been confused about is the idea that dodge is simply better in every way. Can i make a recommendation that its a bit cheaper or everyone has it start as a trained skill while dodge need to be purchased (meaning parry is ahead evening out the weakness).

When it comes to psykers i really love the dark heresy method of handling it. You are the most powerful member of the party but if you try use a power everything goes to hell. Remember that psyker is not bound to the Emperor the same way as an astropath is so you can justify them as unbound psykers in black crusade (i think that justifies as always chance of perils though i dont have the book).

I know you want higher powered characters but the chances of failure in DH are so small that can usually get away with it....until they dont :smallbiggrin:

Parry is actually better than Dodge in melee, since you can use talents like Counter Attack, and you also get bonuses to Parry based on weapon qualities such as Balanced or Defensive.

I generally dislike Dark Heresy's psykers... the inability to fetter powers in annoying... the way the percentages work, nigh on every psyker in the Imperium should be possessed by a daemon by now.

I'll take a look at Nathan's homebrew stuff for Black Crusade powers...

Tome
2012-03-04, 09:32 AM
If you're using the Black Crusade rules as a base, you might want to redo the Weapon Proficiency Talents for your Professions.

Black Crusade uses a slightly different system that condenses them down into a much smaller number of Weapon Training Talents.

bluntpencil
2012-03-04, 10:16 AM
If you're using the Black Crusade rules as a base, you might want to redo the Weapon Proficiency Talents for your Professions.

Black Crusade uses a slightly different system that condenses them down into a much smaller number of Weapon Training Talents.

Will do. Checking now.

The Glyphstone
2012-03-04, 11:16 AM
Thing about parry i've always been confused about is the idea that dodge is simply better in every way. Can i make a recommendation that its a bit cheaper or everyone has it start as a trained skill while dodge need to be purchased (meaning parry is ahead evening out the weakness).


Parry's only benefit is the ability to make a free Counterattack if you have the talent for it.

NEO|Phyte
2012-03-04, 12:34 PM
Parry also seems to be easier to boost, since for the most part boosts to WS don't specify that it's only for attacks, and Parry is a WS check.

bluntpencil
2012-03-05, 11:10 AM
Okay, decided to use Black Crusade Archetypes instead, and modify them slightly.

First up is the:

Apostate Academic

Starting Skills:
Awareness, Charm, Command, Deceive, Scholastic Lore (Any three), Forbidden Lore (any three), Inquiry, Dodge or Parry, Intimidate or Commerce, Charm +10 or Deceive +10 or Linguistics +10, Command +10 or Inquiry +10, Security or Stealth or Logic

Starting Talents:
Air of Authority or Unremarkable, Hatred (any one) or Talented (Linguistics), Peer (any one), Total Recall, Unshakeable Faith or Electro Graft Use, Weapon Training (Primary), Weapon Training (SP or Las), Disturbing Voice or Radiant Presence or Meditation, Polyglot or Mimic, Inspire Wrath or Iron Discipline

Special Ability:
Serpent's Tongue Sleeper Agent
or Pure Faith (as Missionary from Rogue trader; allows access to Faith talents as if Aligned)
or Adroit

Next is the:

Renegade Militant

Starting skills: Athletics, Awareness, Dodge, Parry, Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis) or Commerce, Common Lore (War or Underworld), Operate (any one), Command or Intimidate, Dodge +10 or Parry +10, Survival or Stealth, Tech Use or Medicae

Starting Talents:
Jaded, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Weapon Training (Chain, Las, Primary, SP), Heavy Weapon Training (any one) or Weapon Training (Power), Weapon Training (Bolt or Shock), Catfall or Combat Sense, Sure Strike or Deadeye Shot or Marksman, Double Team or Disarm or Takedown, Ambidextrous or Hip Shooting

Special Ability:
Adroit or Pure Faith

Then we have the:
Heretek Tech Priest

Starting skills:
Logic, Common Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus, Tech), Tech Use +10, Dodge or Parry, Security or Medicae or Scholastic Lore (any one), Forbidden Lore (any one), Scholastic Lore (any one) or Operate (any one)

Starting Talents:
Die Hard, Technical Knock, Weapon Training (Las, Primary), Weapon Training (Chain or Shock), Weapon Training (Plasma or Bolt or Power), Mechadendrite Training (Utility or Weapon), Meditation or Total Recall, Armour-Monger or Weapon Tech, Cold Hearted

Special Ability:

Traitor to Mars Tech-Priest

Then we have, of course, the
Chaos Psyker Sanctioned Psyker

Starting skills:
Awareness, Psyniscience +10, Forbidden Lore (Psykers), Forbidden Lore (Warp), Deceive or Intimidate, Dodge or Parry, Scholastic Lore (Occult) or Parry
Starting talents:
Jaded, Weapon Training (Primary), Weapon Training (Las) or Weapon Training (SP) or Weapon Training (Shock) or Meditation, Warp Sense or Child of the Warp, Psy Rating 2, 500 XP worth of Psychic Powers

Special Ability:
Sanctioned Psyker (Psy Rating 2, Bound Psyker)


Also, an addition rule, based off Black Crusade's Alignment

Philosophy


Khorne "Violence solves everything."
Nurgle "Only in death does duty end."
Slaanesh "Be a boon to your brothers and a bane to your enemies."
Tzeentch "A suspicious mind is a healthy mind."

Unaligned "In the darkness follow the light of Terra."

Squark
2012-03-05, 11:21 AM
Now, I'm no lore expert (Or Dark Heresy expert, for that matter), but isn't using psychic powers in Dark Heresy supposed to be incredibly dangerous? The Dark Heresy PCs aren't supposed to be the incredibly rare, incredibly dangerous psykers we see on the tabletop game (Deathwatch Librarians and presumably some of the Black Crusade Psykers exempted, obviously. I have no idea what Rogue Trader psykers are like, power wise); At least, that's what I've gotten the impression of from nosing around on discussions of the various 40k RPGs

bluntpencil
2012-03-05, 11:27 AM
Now, I'm no lore expert (Or Dark Heresy expert, for that matter), but isn't using psychic powers in Dark Heresy supposed to be incredibly dangerous? The Dark Heresy PCs aren't supposed to be the incredibly rare, incredibly dangerous psykers we see on the tabletop game (Deathwatch Librarians and presumably some of the Black Crusade Psykers exempted, obviously. I have no idea what Rogue Trader psykers are like, power wise); At least, that's what I've gotten the impression of from nosing around on discussions of the various 40k RPGs

They're supposed to be dangerous, but in Dark Heresy they're dangerous to the point of there being no point in using them.

Black Crusade makes them more tempting to use, although I've nerfed psykers a little here.

Tome
2012-03-05, 11:56 AM
Looks good.

Though if you're nerfing the Psyker's psyker abilities, I'd advise giving them an equivalent amount of xp worth of non-psyker stuff to make up for it.

I reverse engineered the BC Archtypes once, and they all total up to about 6000 xp roughly, with the Psyker's Psy Rating included in his total. The problem with the Psyker is that he starts with so much of his xp dumped solely into his psyker abilities, with practically nothing left over.

Maybe add Forbidden Lore (Warp), Scholastic Lore (Occult) and Psyniscience +10 to make up for the drop in Psy Rating?

You also appear to have lopped off some of the Psykers talents too. Is that an error? Because I'm not sure how lacking Jaded and so makes a Psyker less of a problem. :smalltongue:

bluntpencil
2012-03-05, 11:58 AM
Looks good.

Though if you're knocking the psyker down a Psy Rating, I'd advise giving them an equivalent amount of xp worth of skills to make up for it. I reverse engineered the BC Archtypes once, and they all total up to about 6000 xp roughly, with the Psyker's Psy Rating included in his total. Maybe add Forbidden Lore (Warp), Scholastic Lore (Occult) and Psyniscience +10?

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Tome
2012-03-05, 12:08 PM
You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Why thank you. :smallbiggrin:

You also appear to have left out the Psyker's Talents.

Unless that's intentional, he should have: Jaded, Weapon Training (Primary), Weapon Training (Las) or Weapon Training (SP) or Weapon Training (Shock), Warp Sense or Child of the Warp

Caimheul
2012-03-05, 03:29 PM
Regarding the tech-priest modifications, Traitor of Mars/Tech-priest is a special ability rather than a trait, and has a different effect that the trait Mechanicus Implants which is common to all tech-priest classes. It gives them the basic implants that all tech-priests have (respirator, and the various other implants that make the tech-priest specific talents work, like potential coil but don't have really any in game effects)

king.com
2012-03-05, 07:42 PM
They're supposed to be dangerous, but in Dark Heresy they're dangerous to the point of there being no point in using them.

Black Crusade makes them more tempting to use, although I've nerfed psykers a little here.

Psykers in DH are the most powerful characters in the game their risk is a big handicap but theres a lot you can do to make it almost nonexistant. I certainly agree though, if your taking away the super expensive psy rating talent, you need to add something as a replacement

Personally I would recommend a choice between combat skills and knowledge depending on whether they want to be the scholar type psyker or the imperial guard combat deployment type psyker. Say Basic Weapon Training (Las) vs Forbidden Lore Occult or the like.

bluntpencil
2012-03-06, 05:54 AM
Psykers in DH are the most powerful characters in the game their risk is a big handicap but theres a lot you can do to make it almost nonexistant. I certainly agree though, if your taking away the super expensive psy rating talent, you need to add something as a replacement

Personally I would recommend a choice between combat skills and knowledge depending on whether they want to be the scholar type psyker or the imperial guard combat deployment type psyker. Say Basic Weapon Training (Las) vs Forbidden Lore Occult or the like.

I think it will be Parry up against Forbidden Lore, but yes.

I'll add the talents later.