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thompur
2012-02-21, 12:27 PM
Here are the Top 75 Animated Films (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/guides/best_animated_movies_2012/) according to Rotten Tomatoes.
I've seen 60 of them. I was a little disappointed, though not suprised, that Ralph Bakshi's Wizards was not on the list.

Are there any not on the list that you think should be? How many on the list have you seen?

Cen
2012-02-21, 12:52 PM
"The lion king" at #40?! that's a blasphemy!

Bhu
2012-02-21, 01:09 PM
Too much disney

would've liked to see more stuff from Bakshi and soem others

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 01:55 PM
Clearly these are not in order, or if they are, have a very bad metric for measurement. Otherwise, The Simpsons Movie and James and the Giant Peach would be above Aladdin and The Lion King. And Toy Story 2 would be number 1 of all-time. And that's just silly.

tensai_oni
2012-02-21, 02:23 PM
Each film is accompanied by the standard freshness rating, but they said that the reviews were weighted when calculating position on the list. So some things may look like they're in wrong order, but they're not.

Unless you were being facetious and saying some things deserve to be higher or lower than they are. In that case, how did the meme go? Ah right.

"Well that's like, just your opinion man."

thubby
2012-02-21, 02:32 PM
wasnt toystory 2 the worst of the 3 in the box office.
i could have seen 1 or 3 getting top pick, but 2? really?

-1 faith in humanity

thubby
2012-02-21, 02:36 PM
wasnt toystory 2 the worst of the 3 in the box office.
i could have seen 1 or 3 getting top pick, but 2? really?

-1 faith in humanity

thubby
2012-02-21, 02:40 PM
wasnt toystory 2 the worst of the 3 in the box office.
i could have seen 1 or 3 getting top pick, but 2? really?

-1 faith in humanity

Dr.Epic
2012-02-21, 02:52 PM
WHAT!? How is South Park: the Musical NOT on the list? What would Brian Boitano do if he heard this outrage!?:smallwink:

Also kind of surprised Treasure Planet isn't on the list. That film was awesome. They seamlessly combined Treasure Island and space travel - two things that shouldn't mix (like Cowboys and Aliens). Plus, the animation, story, and voice acting were all great. It might be my favorite Disney film (not counting Pixar)(although since I don't really like musicals, that really limits down the list).

And like many people I do disagree with the number one slot. Not because I think it's a bad film, but I just wouldn't put it at number 1.

The list was this to me:

-about a third I was happy to see on the list because they are masterpieces
-about a third I either haven't seen or was indifferent to so I didn't feel one way about them being on the list
-about a third I thought weren't that good or were plain bad and shouldn't have been on the list

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-21, 03:04 PM
wasnt toystory 2 the worst of the 3 in the box office.
i could have seen 1 or 3 getting top pick, but 2? really?

-1 faith in humanity

Crap, that's a total of -3 faith in humanity!

Starscream
2012-02-21, 03:06 PM
6 Miyazaki films (no surprise there), but no mention of the classic that started it all, Castle of Cagliostro?

Which is weird, because looking it up reveals it has a 90%, higher than many of the movies that DID make it.

Did Lupin steal his movie from the list?

thubby
2012-02-21, 03:11 PM
um yeah, every time i try and delete the double posts it makes another. so...yeah.

SlyGuyMcFly
2012-02-21, 03:12 PM
Toy Story Two? Snow White as #7? No Miyazaki films in the top ten? This is some sort of elaborate troll, right? Right?

Mr.Silver
2012-02-21, 03:18 PM
The thing with Rotten Tomatoes is that it treats 'not too bad I guess' and 'redefines what the entire medium is capable of' as being essentially the same thing (it also does the same for 'not really my cup of tea' and 'Exhibit A in the case for human extinction'). While that's fine for the site's general purpose, it does become something of a problem when you try and use it to make 'best' lists - which are fairly questionable creatures at the best of times.

thubby
2012-02-21, 03:39 PM
um yeah, every time i try and delete the double posts it makes another. so...yeah.

Axolotl
2012-02-21, 03:46 PM
Antz is number 25, that's above Aladdin, Akira, Lion King and Grave of the Fireflies.

I have no futher comment on the list.

erikun
2012-02-21, 04:35 PM
um yeah, every time i try and delete the double posts it makes another. so...yeah.
I would recommend pressing the submit button only once, and if you get an error, go back to the thread and refresh to see if your post went through. Or at least go back to the reply and press "Preview Post" to see if the response is listed. You can avoid a lot of hasty double-posting that way.

Eldariel
2012-02-21, 08:06 PM
It makes me incredibly sad that Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind somehow managed to not even appear in this Top 75. Also, lists like this with 12 pages of entries are a pain to read. And can't say I could come anywhere close to agreeing with the Top 10.

Like always with Top Anything lists, guess this is someone's list but this is extremely far from anything I'd make myself. While I like much of Disney/Pixar's stuff, I'd never agree that they are somehow superior to all other animated anything ever, which seems to be the message of this list.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-21, 08:09 PM
Puss in Boots is 75? BS that movie deserves a spot on "Most mediocre and dull films".

MCerberus
2012-02-21, 08:21 PM
This list seems rather hap-hazard to me. Kind of like it was string of thought after prompting someone to list 75 good cartoons. I know Eddie Murphy was a bad spot for it, but Mulan being beaten by stuff like Bug's Life and freaking BOLT, among other oddities. Even in the description the latter was described as 'pleasant'.

I want to know how they came up with these weights.

And several Disney movies that got a pass from critics by being Disney/Pixar. And why the Simpson's movie is up there... at all... Iron Giant below How to Train your Dragon.

Senator Cybus
2012-02-21, 09:42 PM
Where. The. Hell. Is. Megamind?

Oh, heads will roll for this! :smallfurious:

Raistlin1040
2012-02-21, 10:57 PM
My first thought was...
Actually, Kanye, can you help me out with this? Thanks, bro.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxrjrt4Yjv1qghmqdo1_500.png

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-21, 11:24 PM
I knew there was trouble when I saw Puss in Boots and Hercules on the list. I was more then verified in this early assessment.

There's countless problems with this list. I mean hell I can see the Simpson's Movie on this list I can but it sure as HELL doesn't beat the masterworks that are Aladdin and Lion king. I love How to Train Your Dragon, but hell it isn't in the top 20. And a god-damn limited animation train wreck of a **** film like Yellow Submarine in the 20s, insulting.

The "top ten" is an absolute disgrace. A sin against animation as an artistic medium. I think Pixar would be the first to agree they certainly haven't made 7 of the 10 best animated films. Because they have y'know, class.

And the treatment of anime in general reveals the utter crap of the methodology. I mean I'm not exactly expecting Lagann-hen here or anything... but Girl Who Leapt Through Time beats out most of things listed in the bottom 20 thank you very much. Its so bad I count myself lucky Ghibli is even on their, Mononoke, Spirited Away, and Grave of the Fireflies not jockeying for position somewhere in the top ten almost doesn't even register.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-22, 12:31 AM
Where. The. Hell. Is. Megamind?


Answering about the plot holes incured for having a superhero stoping time and having a rather flat and one sided anti-character.

polity4life
2012-02-22, 07:24 AM
This is pretty bad list in terms of order. What exactly are we going for in regards to the ranking? There are so many more deserving films in the bottom half that belong in the top 10.

Honestly, any list that doesn't say Akira is among the top ten best animated movies of all time is devoid of credibility. I'm not the anime fiend I used to be but that film, in every quantifiable and qualitative measurement possible, is a benchmark of the trade.

TheFallenOne
2012-02-22, 07:59 AM
Pity Felidae isn't on the list. Just saw it around new year's, good movie.

Everyone was quite surprised when shortly afterward I learned we watched the English DUB, none of us had any idea it was a German flick originally.

Apart from that, yeah, many problems with the list, especially the ranking. Only good it did was remind me of some movies I wanted to watch/rewatch but then forgot about.

DigoDragon
2012-02-22, 08:00 AM
I have no idea how the order was made... darts on a board maybe? :smalltongue:
Kidding aside, my personal opinion of what would be on a top list would include Emperor's New Groove, Howl's Moving Castle, Toy Story 2, and Shrek 2.

Sunken Valley
2012-02-22, 08:57 AM
Oh god.

I've heard of them all. and I've seen all but 3 of them (chico and rita, metropolis, my dog tulip).

Yeah, that's right.

I've seen Sita sings the Blues!

Although, the blurb mentioned Ralph Bakshi but I could see none of his films on the list. I've seen american pop and Fritz the cat.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-22, 01:49 PM
Honestly, any list that doesn't say Akira is among the top ten best animated movies of all time is devoid of credibility. I'm not the anime fiend I used to be but that film, in every quantifiable and qualitative measurement possible, is a benchmark of the trade.

Akira's main achievement is its high production value and being a classic gateway drug to anime in the West. Its somewhat thin as a film itself though, particularly compared to the full manga.

I'm not saying not on the list, but it wouldn't make top ten on mine.

Icewalker
2012-02-22, 07:45 PM
Not a bad list. I would've swapped a few things around, mostly the older Disney movies like Cinderella lower, and the...I can't say newer, but the fantastic era movies like Mulan a bit higher. The Toy Story films, as incredible as they are, I think probably doesn't warrant 3 of the top 4 positions :smalltongue:. Although, maybe, they are suuuuper great. WALL-E, Iron Giant, Up, the Incredibles, well placed up there at the top. Fantasia is just...Fantasia. It's where it should be.

It's awesome that Sita Sings the Blues is on here. Love that.

Also, I had literally completely forgotten Chicken Run existed. That was an awesome movie.

Oh, also, where is Titan A.E.? :smallfrown: Although I may be biased cause it's my childhood.

Velaryon
2012-02-22, 10:00 PM
I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I've seen only 19 of the films on that list, barely a quarter of them. I'm not surprised that pretty much every single Disney and/or Pixar film that wasn't released straight to home video is on there, because those always get pretty much universally praised even when they're not very good, highly derivative, or even outright stolen (like the Lion King seems to have been).

I guess they weren't counting movies that blended animation with live-action, or else Who Framed Roger Rabbit? would need to be on this list, and probably Space Jam as well.

Can't think of too many things I would place on this list that aren't already there. I'd like to nominate Mask of the Phantasm purely for being a feature-length Batman: the Animated Series cartoon, but I honestly don't remember it very well.

I know they ran the franchise into the ground with about 400 sequels, but I thought the original The Land Before Time was very good as a kid. I wouldn't have minded seeing that on the list.

Dr.Epic
2012-02-22, 10:11 PM
wasnt toystory 2 the worst of the 3 in the box office.
i could have seen 1 or 3 getting top pick, but 2? really?

-1 faith in humanity

I thought 2 was far better than 1 (and I haven't seen 3 yet).

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-22, 10:33 PM
I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I've seen only 19 of the films on that list, barely a quarter of them. I'm not surprised that pretty much every single Disney and/or Pixar film that wasn't released straight to home video is on there, because those always get pretty much universally praised even when they're not very good, highly derivative, or even outright stolen (like the Lion King seems to have been).

Nah man Disney has plenty of holes, the Rescuer's is the only representation from the post-Walt to Mermaid era and Walt's era has several holes. Mind you many of these are entirely deserved cases. Several though are better then what did make the list.

Pixar of course reveals the gushing of critics towards everything CGI, and probably a general trend toward homogeneity in reviews. And attitude of "Oh well I liked it so it must be 9.9/10" seems to be shown the more recent you go.

Reverent-One
2012-02-22, 10:37 PM
Pixar of course reveals the gushing of critics towards everything CGI, and probably a general trend toward homogeneity in reviews. And attitude of "Oh well I liked it so it must be 9.9/10" seems to be shown the more recent you go.

More importantly, it reveals the sheer awesomeness that is Pixar.

Anarion
2012-02-22, 10:44 PM
More importantly, it reveals the sheer awesomeness that is Pixar.

Yeah Pixar is pretty incredible, no argument there. Though the way this list is organized makes it seem like the absolute best anime is still worse than the 10 best western animations and that's just not correct.

Also, maybe I missed it, but what the hay!? Where's Land Before Time?

Reverent-One
2012-02-22, 10:47 PM
Yeah Pixar is pretty incredible, no argument there. Though the way this list is organized makes it seem like the absolute best anime is still worse than the 10 best western animations and that's just not correct.

Like all lists, this is opinion. Mix it around to your liking and it'd still be opinion, and still get as much hate on the internet.

EDIT: Oh wait, I thought this list was based on the opinion of the RT crew, looking at it again it's based on some rating formula. So it actually is an objective list...of opinions.

TheFallenOne
2012-02-22, 11:33 PM
I know they ran the franchise into the ground with about 400 sequels, but I thought the original The Land Before Time was very good as a kid. I wouldn't have minded seeing that on the list.


Also, maybe I missed it, but what the hay!? Where's Land Before Time?

*blink* how did I not notice that before, I was absolutely in love with that movie as a kid.
And now I look even more closely, I notice they ignored my very favourite. How can you not include The Great Mouse Detective in this? That movie was so awesome I named our dog after the dog taxi there.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-22, 11:55 PM
More importantly, it reveals the sheer awesomeness that is Pixar.

Pixar stole every move in their playbook from Miyazaki and they know it. Hence why Totoro is in Toy Story 3. I also have seen enough of them to say they'd have the class to say they aren't 7/10 greatest animations. Not that most of their films don't have a place on this list but way the hay farther down. Given that I have severe personal dislikes for the Toy Story franchise my own top ten would never resemble critics though.

(Why don't I like Toy Story? I don't find the notion of my old toys being alive both cruel and creepy)


Like all lists, this is opinion. Mix it around to your liking and it'd still be opinion, and still get as much hate on the internet.

EDIT: Oh wait, I thought this list was based on the opinion of the RT crew, looking at it again it's based on some rating formula. So it actually is an objective list...of opinions.

Yes which shows the sort of horrible biases and errors of using "generally favorable" collections of reviews to generate a list.


*blink* how did I not notice that before, I was absolutely in love with that movie as a kid.
And now I look even more closely, I notice they ignored my very favourite. How can you not include The Great Mouse Detective in this? That movie was so awesome I named our dog after the dog taxi there.

Holy crap I did the same thing.

Reverent-One
2012-02-23, 12:07 AM
Yes which shows the sort of horrible biases and errors of using "generally favorable" collections of reviews to generate a list.

Yes, yes, a movie with near universal acclaim from a lot of a reviews will beat out a movie with near universal acclaim from less reviews. If you're measuring the response to the movie, it's a reasonable way to do it.

McStabbington
2012-02-23, 12:42 AM
Meh, I don't think it's the greatest list, but I can see how they came to it. Really the only problem is that it reflects the biases of the method they use to generate their numbers: a movie where absolutely everyone says "An enjoyable evening" is necessarily going to rank higher than a movie where maybe 70% of critics consider said movie the best thing ever and 30% just don't get it. Consensus about quality matters more than intensity of quality. As a consequence, you get the Toy Story movies on top, which are movies I've never seen anyone actively despise even if they don't think it's as good as, say, Wall-E or Beauty and the Beast or Snow White.

Offhand, I'd guess the same method of calculation would put Back to the Future on top of any sci-fi film compilation, with Blade Runner somewhere in the teens. And my response would be basically the same there as here: Back to the Future is really good; it just isn't Blade Runner.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 12:44 AM
Yes, yes, a movie with near universal acclaim from a lot of a reviews will beat out a movie with near universal acclaim from less reviews. If you're measuring the response to the movie, it's a reasonable way to do it.

There was some kind of weight adjustment for that apparently however reviews have a lot of problems as any kind of real measure.

First off there's no real universal scale between critics. Roger Ebert's site list 1-4 stars. Others use a X.Y while other might use 1-100. Even converted to percentages those numbers are going to mean different things to different critics. And heck they may shift with time. You can't really get higher the more then generally favorable as far as a universal rating. Which is fine for a broad decision on whether a move is good or not for a weekend, but hardly a good basis for picking top evers.

However the problem emerges when you tackle something that is relatively speaking, So Okay Its Average.

Nobody dislikes it. There's nothing to be a maverick over by down voting it for controversy/overhyped/attention-seeking, so everybody gives it reasonable reviews. Suddenly its got universal acclaim even though none of the individual reviewers would ever consider it something one of the greatest ever.

And nevermind something the way history may change opinions. Fantasia took time to be appreciated as a masterwork, if that was cycled forward would it even make the list.

(I'd also mention the complete bias induced by relying on English language opinions never giving anime its fair shake from lack of exsposure but this at least I understand is almost inescapable. Miyazaki is the only one with decent market thanks to Disney)

STsinderman
2012-02-23, 01:41 AM
Though there are some awesome films on this list, there is an extreme amount of crap accompanying it.

Knaight
2012-02-23, 03:28 AM
(I'd also mention the complete bias induced by relying on English language opinions never giving anime its fair shake from lack of exsposure but this at least I understand is almost inescapable. Miyazaki is the only one with decent market thanks to Disney)
Thankfully, he isn't the only one on the list - though I can think of several films that should either be on the list (Tekkonkreet), or should be way higher (Tokyo Godfathers). Also, what is Persepolis doing out of the top 10?

Mr.Silver
2012-02-23, 05:35 AM
Yes, yes, a movie with near universal acclaim from a lot of a reviews will beat out a movie with near universal acclaim from less reviews. If you're measuring the response to the movie, it's a reasonable way to do it.

Except they're aren't really basing this on acclaim. As I said earlier, the Rotten Tomatoes freshness rating is calculated by comparing the number of opinions that simply weren't negative against those that weren't positive - but makes no distinction between opinions within those categories. In other words if 80% of responses say a film is 'ok, but nothing special' then it will get a higher freshness rating than a film which 70% of responses declared to be a masterpiece.

Anarion
2012-02-23, 08:49 AM
Sounds like they should rename the list to "top 75 animated movies that very few people hated."

Omergideon
2012-02-23, 09:00 AM
So one of my favourite films ever, The Land Before Time, does not seem to appear at all. I can forgive this though as I would struggle to call any of the top ten undeserving. A mean sure a lot of other films on the list also deserve the top spot, but that is a sure sign that there are lots of quality films out there. I wouldn't complain had someone put Alladin or All dogs go to Heaven on the list.


But I must admit I think Bambi is the best film of all time. not best animated, Best Film. Period. It is also the first one I ever saw, so I think it may have something to do with that.

But having watched a couple of Miyazaki films I have to say.....I don't get it. They were visually impressive I guess but I just did not enjoy watching them, connect with the characters or situations or really have any strong emotions. I do wonder why people like them so much?

Dr.Epic
2012-02-23, 09:07 AM
So one of my favourite films ever, The Land Before Time, does not seem to appear at all.

Speaking of which, how many Don Bluth films made it on the list? I remember seeing the Secret of Nymh on it. Any others?

Eldan
2012-02-23, 09:21 AM
Don't think so, no. Personally, I'd like to see Ghost in the Shell 2 on it, but that's just my own opinion.

Anarion
2012-02-23, 09:35 AM
But having watched a couple of Miyazaki films I have to say.....I don't get it. They were visually impressive I guess but I just did not enjoy watching them, connect with the characters or situations or really have any strong emotions. I do wonder why people like them so much?

Which Miyazaki films did you see? Some of his movies are quite difficult to understand and he often goes for pretty heavy themes like environmental destruction and post-apocalyptic Earth. Others tend to be more fun and fantastical.

Reverent-One
2012-02-23, 10:17 AM
There was some kind of weight adjustment for that apparently however reviews have a lot of problems as any kind of real measure.

First off there's no real universal scale between critics. Roger Ebert's site list 1-4 stars. Others use a X.Y while other might use 1-100. Even converted to percentages those numbers are going to mean different things to different critics. And heck they may shift with time. You can't really get higher the more then generally favorable as far as a universal rating. Which is fine for a broad decision on whether a move is good or not for a weekend, but hardly a good basis for picking top evers.

Given that the list is for the most critically acclaimed animated movies though, how could they have handled it better? The different scales are an inherent issue for such a list.


However the problem emerges when you tackle something that is relatively speaking, So Okay Its Average.

Nobody dislikes it. There's nothing to be a maverick over by down voting it for controversy/overhyped/attention-seeking, so everybody gives it reasonable reviews. Suddenly its got universal acclaim even though none of the individual reviewers would ever consider it something one of the greatest ever.


Except they're aren't really basing this on acclaim. As I said earlier, the Rotten Tomatoes freshness rating is calculated by comparing the number of opinions that simply weren't negative against those that weren't positive - but makes no distinction between opinions within those categories. In other words if 80% of responses say a film is 'ok, but nothing special' then it will get a higher freshness rating than a film which 70% of responses declared to be a masterpiece.

If they were soley basing this off the Freshness rating, you'd both have a good point here. However, it's obvious they're not. Rotten Tomatoes does record the average rating as well, so unless they totally ignored that in their points metric (which we have no reason to think they did), a more average reviewed peice with a higher freshness rating isn't automatically going to be higher.


(I'd also mention the complete bias induced by relying on English language opinions never giving anime its fair shake from lack of exsposure but this at least I understand is almost inescapable. Miyazaki is the only one with decent market thanks to Disney)

Yes, this is what I was referring to when talking about the the movies with similar acclaim but different numbers of reviews, this affects foreign movies (of which there's more than just anime) and older movies from before there were so many critics or early enough that RT can't find all the reviews. It's an unfortunate fact, but weighting it for that is pretty much required when making a list like this.

Tengu_temp
2012-02-23, 11:04 AM
Don't think so, no. Personally, I'd like to see Ghost in the Shell 2 on it, but that's just my own opinion.

Not just yours. It was superior to GitS 1. And while we're on the topic of animu, the Haruhi movie and Rebuild of Evangelion were better than at least half of the stuff on this list, but they're much less mainstream so no wonder they're not here.

Eldan
2012-02-23, 11:19 AM
By Opinion, I rather meant to say "It's my favourite movie, but I know a lot of people don't like it much, so I'm probably not objective". On the other hand, I still have a rather massive dislike for anything Haruhi.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 11:22 AM
Thankfully, he isn't the only one on the list - though I can think of several films that should either be on the list (Tekkonkreet), or should be way higher (Tokyo Godfathers). Also, what is Persepolis doing out of the top 10?

I remember Tokyo Godfather first on a Blockbuster shelf (back in the day that you rented movies that way) which so help me means someone gave it a more aggressive English release then typical. Probably on the idea of art house film that just happens to be animated.

At any rate its definitely rare. I remember liking say The Girl Who Leapt Through Time more then any of the non-Miyazaki anime on the list.


Given that the list is for the most critically acclaimed animated movies though, how could they have handled it better? The different scales are an inherent issue for such a list.

By actually asking the question of course.

There is a fundamental difference between liking a movie and considering a movie great. I like most of the Disney Renaissance films for example, but the one that getting to be 20 years later that still immediately rises above in my thoughts is The Lion King. Sure you can disagree with my opinion but you know that it has that prominence to actually provoke that disagreement, so you know say in a panel of judges the Lion King would be discussed. While something nominally better recieved but blander doesn't even come up for consideration. Because sure everyone liked it on paper... but they totally forgot about it afterward.

You need that element to even begin to make a "top X" list.


Sounds like they should rename the list to "top 75 animated movies that very few people hated."

Not bland enough oh lawyer pony.

Kato
2012-02-23, 11:25 AM
Okay, rating formula aside... the one good thing about this list is they got a decent amount of Miyazaki movies in it... otherwise... :smallannoyed:
Admittedly, I haven't seen quite a few of the most recent movies (heck, I even need to go see Wall-E, yeah, yeah, I know) but even with my lacking knowledge I can pledge my soul there are two dozen movies on the list better than Toy Story 2.
Oh wait, there is another good thing about the list: It reminds me how I should spend the next weeks of my life: Watching animated movies I missed out on.


It's really hard to come up with a decent formula I think... you really just need like... a huge number of people who know all the movies and than sit down and rank them... comparing two movies and saying which is better and which is worse is easier than just giving points or something.

Reverent-One
2012-02-23, 11:37 AM
By actually asking the question of course.

There is a fundamental difference between liking a movie and considering a movie great. I like most of the Disney Renaissance films for example, but the one that getting to be 20 years later that still immediately rises above in my thoughts is The Lion King. Sure you can disagree with my opinion but you know that it has that prominence to actually provoke that disagreement, so you know say in a panel of judges the Lion King would be discussed. While something nominally better recieved but blander doesn't even come up for consideration. Because sure everyone liked it on paper... but they totally forgot about it afterward.

You need that element to even begin to make a "top X" list.

What question are you talking about? Whatever it is, while there is a difference in liking a movie and considering the movie great, that difference factors into the individual review scores, not creating a "top X" list of the best-reviewed movies.

Omergideon
2012-02-23, 02:07 PM
Which Miyazaki films did you see? Some of his movies are quite difficult to understand and he often goes for pretty heavy themes like environmental destruction and post-apocalyptic Earth. Others tend to be more fun and fantastical.

You know I watched Spirited Away, I know that, but for the life of me I cannot remember the rest of them. I guess that says something about the impact they had on me if I forget them almost straight away.....

Or I just watched another Studio Ghibli film and assumed it was one of his/my memory got messed up. I know and remember Whisper of the Heart from Studio Ghibli was one I saw, and thought OK but unnecessarily whimsical.

I think my issue with the Miyazaki I have seen is that I have a relatively low tolerance for whimsy, and I do not get swept away in visuals so easily. And from what I hear those are 2 of his strengths. It's a personal thing but, especially with being swept away in images, I stop being impressed or interested very very fast. I mean I know Avatar (as another film example) had incredible imagery, but I stopped caring about that after about 10 minutes. For me it is characters and their interactions that really make me love a story (or great action).

So if there are any VERY character heavy/low whimsy films of his you could recommend I might see what everyone else does.

But by contrast I can forgive poor animation/fx etc very easily if I like the characters.



And seriously, The Land Before Time is one of the most moving films I have ever seen in my life. How does that not even get onto the list????

Reverent-One
2012-02-23, 03:04 PM
And seriously, The Land Before Time is one of the most moving films I have ever seen in my life. How does that not even get onto the list????

Likely because it only has 15 reviews (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/land_before_time/) and a freshness rating and average score well below the lowest entry on the list

Timeless Error
2012-02-23, 03:29 PM
The list itself is not bad, but I can't say I'm happy with the rankings. Most of the Miyazaki films weren't rated highly enough, most of the Disney films were rated too highly, and the Pixar films were out of order.

Terraoblivion
2012-02-23, 03:43 PM
Not just yours. It was superior to GitS 1. And while we're on the topic of animu, the Haruhi movie and Rebuild of Evangelion were better than at least half of the stuff on this list, but they're much less mainstream so no wonder they're not here.

To be fair, Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya wasn't a standalone, but required having seen the show to understand. I consider it an absolutely amazing movie, but it would be a confusing mess to a movie critic and ultimately doesn't rest purely on its own merits. Still, it's at the top of my personal list due to the fact that I do know Haruhi and love it.

Capt. Ido Nos
2012-02-23, 03:47 PM
While I started this list thinking that it was alright, I started to become seriously skeptical when I saw Akira rated directly beneath Kung Fu Panda, then noticed that almost every single animated movie from last year was high on this list. There definitely were a lot of great choices for this list, but the ordering is complete garbage. They probably have the top 50 in this list right here, but I'd say it would need a big shakedown to get it right.

And Toy Story 2 as the best of all time? Seriously?

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 03:48 PM
What question are you talking about? Whatever it is, while there is a difference in liking a movie and considering the movie great, that difference factors into the individual review scores, not creating a "top X" list of the best-reviewed movies.

The question "What are the best animated movies ever?" would seem to be a starting point.

Notably that's not the question asked, but is effectively the presentation.


Or I just watched another Studio Ghibli film and assumed it was one of his/my memory got messed up. I know and remember Whisper of the Heart from Studio Ghibli was one I saw, and thought OK but unnecessarily whimsical.

No that was a Yoshifumi Kondo as director. He was being groomed as a potential successor to Miyazaki/Takahata but sadly died of a brain aneurysm before directing any other films.

The screenplay was Miyazaki and he was involved with the project though. Ultimately the film is a good demonstration of Not All Ghibli Is Miyazaki in my book.

(Speaking of Not All Ghibli is Miyazaki you can go see another example in theaters right now. I highly recomend it)


I think my issue with the Miyazaki I have seen is that I have a relatively low tolerance for whimsy, and I do not get swept away in visuals so easily. And from what I hear those are 2 of his strengths. It's a personal thing but, especially with being swept away in images, I stop being impressed or interested very very fast. I mean I know Avatar (as another film example) had incredible imagery, but I stopped caring about that after about 10 minutes. For me it is characters and their interactions that really make me love a story (or great action).

Well one does need a certain tolerance for whimsy of the stories very firmly in the G rating, but in an old school Disney way. (Exception: Princess Mononoke)

However while the specialty is in fairy tales of various types backed by sweeping visual/technical skill... this is not compensating for any lacking as a talented story teller. He creates as a rule well developed characters, though they tend to be a bit low key next to most anime rather extreme preferences. The closest thing to a weakness though is that he very openly and obviously prefers certain devices.

There will be a strong young heroine who is paired (not like that nessecarily) with a hero and they will operate on equal footing as people. Miyazaki is a big time feminist so most of his film's approach having two protagonists. They will look familiar too, as if played by the same actors. Probably a green aesop in there or something alluding to it. Probably a flying scene. These shouldn't be confused with a true lack of creativity but as a director who prefers to work with certain actors and tells exactly the stories he wants. Though they do lend themselves to certain lazy generalizations of Miyazaki's work.



So if there are any VERY character heavy/low whimsy films of his you could recommend I might see what everyone else does.

Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and Princess Mononoke are Miyazaki's most serious/adult-oriented films so probably your best bet for the "low whimsy" as a requirement. I'd tell you they were high character but I think that's merely universal.

You might want to start with The Castle of Cagliostro a Lupin III film directed by Miyazaki. That one benefits from some knowledge of the franchise though, since it doesn't waste time on introductions as I remember.

Reverent-One
2012-02-23, 04:00 PM
The question "What are the best animated movies ever?" would seem to be a starting point.

Notably that's not the question asked, but is effectively the presentation.


Given that "best" is a very subjective measurement, even to the point of what "best" means, using it as "best-reviewed" isn't a wrong way to do it.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 05:18 PM
Given that "best" is a very subjective measurement, even to the point of what "best" means, using it as "best-reviewed" isn't a wrong way to do it.

If you wanna play the subjective truth game we can start with reviews being completely subjective to begin with so what subjective opinion makes that a better way. And of course art being entirely subjective, and reception via critics as the same thing. And circle outward until we reach the subjective nature life the universe and everything if we want.

Or we can simply pursue selfishly treating subjective matters as if they were objective and the "best" has exactly the meaning we all are used to while still operating within human limits that allow dissent without falling to democratic compromised mediocrity in an attempt to please all that pleases none.

Rather then anything strictly statistical I rather like American Film Institute criteria handled by a sizable and knowledgeable jury:

Feature length: Narrative format typically over 60 minutes long.
American film: English language, with significant creative and/or financial production from the United States.
Critical Recognition: Formal commendation in print, television, and digital media.
Major Award Winner: Recognition from competitive events including awards from peer groups, critics, guilds, and major film festivals.
Popularity Over Time: Includes success at the box office, television and cable airings, and DVD/VHS sales and rentals.
Historical Significance: A film's mark on the history of the moving image through visionary narrative devices, technical innovation or other groundbreaking achievements.
Cultural Impact: A film's mark on American society in matters of style and substance.


Though the second one of course is problematic for many of my choices, I can live with it for their purpose. Those are their film criteria but I can't imagine they were terribly different in determining their one specific animated list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI%27s_10_Top_10#Animation). Which I find much less fault in, though I have my disagreements.

Reverent-One
2012-02-23, 05:58 PM
If you wanna play the subjective truth game we can start with reviews being completely subjective to begin with so what subjective opinion makes that a better way. And of course art being entirely subjective, and reception via critics as the same thing. And circle outward until we reach the subjective nature life the universe and everything if we want.

Whoa, let's stop right at the bolded section, because you seem think I'm arguing something I'm not. I never said it was better than other options, simply a different, yet still valid, way of looking at it. That said, I will say now that I do find it better than a lot of "Top X" lists websites put out, which are generally the product of a handful of peoples' opinions, perhaps as few as a single person.

Eldan
2012-02-23, 06:23 PM
Though the second one of course is problematic for many of my choices, I can live with it for their purpose. Those are their film criteria but I can't imagine they were terribly different in determining their one specific animated list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI%27s_10_Top_10#Animation). Which I find much less fault in, though I have my disagreements.

It's probably not a bad list for American animation, yes. Of course, it lacks all foreign animation, though.

(Aside: they define Science Fiction as having a Technological or scientific basis, then put Star Wars that high on the list, before Clockwork Orange and Blade Runner?)

Terraoblivion
2012-02-23, 06:45 PM
There is quite a dire lack of European animation, especially the strong French and Eastern European traditions. I think the latter might have died out by now, though.

Jaros
2012-02-23, 08:58 PM
Whilst I love Pixar... yeah, they dominated that list way too much.

And am I the only one who thought Finding Nemo was only alright? I mean I enjoyed it, but for me it would belong nowhere near the top of the list.

Things-I-think-should've-been-in-that-haven't-been-mentioned-yet: Watership Down & Laputa

Cespenar
2012-02-24, 02:02 PM
This will probably be against the current which this thread is flowing, but I think that the "top x y of all time" idea is an inherently silly one. I mean, I would have quarrel with even a top list that I myself have brought together.

Timeless Error
2012-02-24, 06:44 PM
[...] Watership Down [...]

Wait, they made an animated movie of Watership Down? And it's good?

Bhu
2012-02-24, 07:17 PM
Wait, they made an animated movie of Watership Down? And it's good?

Once you make it pass the soul crushing depression...

MCerberus
2012-02-24, 07:57 PM
It's probably not a bad list for American animation, yes. Of course, it lacks all foreign animation, though.

(Aside: they define Science Fiction as having a Technological or scientific basis, then put Star Wars that high on the list, before Clockwork Orange and Blade Runner?)

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I get the distinct feeling that the cultural importance measure is directly relating to what the marketing team says it is. And if it were indeed possible for one company to be responsible 90% of all the best works in a field, I weep for the culture.

Jaros
2012-02-24, 09:10 PM
Wait, they made an animated movie of Watership Down? And it's good?Yes. Many know it primarily through the film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkirtbpz5h4)


I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I get the distinct feeling that the cultural importance measure is directly relating to what the marketing team says it is. And if it were indeed possible for one company to be responsible 90% of all the best works in a field, I weep for the culture.
To be fair, the AFI list is specifically looking at American films.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-24, 09:26 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I get the distinct feeling that the cultural importance measure is directly relating to what the marketing team says it is. And if it were indeed possible for one company to be responsible 90% of all the best works in a field, I weep for the culture.

Well if you want to talk about classic and culturally important animated films. From an American perspective Disney is very nearly all there is to even consider.

Check it out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animated_feature_films), while feature length animation is know to go as far back as 1917 there isn't an American entry until Snow White in 1937 and from there you have somewhere around 5 challengers total while Walt himself was still alive. And its not like everything produced then was pure gold, go check out the Nostaligia Critic's Disneycember specials.

Even fast forwarding to the animation Renaissance that I can remember growing up... well I love say The Land Before Time but it owes quite a bit to Disney. I dare say I could intersperse bits of the Rite of Spring and not be noticed.

I'd bet Shrek being on the AFI list to mark how only int the past decade or so has Disney and perhaps as important the Disney style been truly challenged successfully.

And well as a broad statement Disney may be an evil megacorp... but they are still broadly speaking quite good at what they do.

HeadlessMermaid
2012-02-25, 06:18 AM
There is quite a dire lack of European animation, especially the strong French and Eastern European traditions. I think the latter might have died out by now, though.
I was about to agree wholeheartedly, and then it dawned on me that I don't know which films should be on that list and aren't already.

The French ones I thought of were recent (The Illusionist and Les Triplettes de Belleville), and they are both there. I've seen a couple of Corto Maltese films, and was sorely disappointed - they had none of the magic of the comic books, IMO. And I can't think of anything else from the French/Belgian front (unless Astérix, Lucky Luke and Tintin animation counts as actual films and not TV series, I'm not sure about that).

As for Eastern European animation (I'm including Russia and the former USSR here), while I have the utmost respect for it, I can't really remember any feature films - only TV series and shorts, and these vaguely. Perhaps Film Noir counts, except that a) it's technically Serbian/American, b) it has nothing to do, visually or otherwise, with said tradition, and c) it's original, but it's not truly great.

So, I guess the question is, what am I forgetting? Ideas/suggestions, anyone?

Sunken Valley
2012-02-25, 08:50 AM
You know I watched Spirited Away, I know that, but for the life of me I cannot remember the rest of them. I guess that says something about the impact they had on me if I forget them almost straight away.....

Or I just watched another Studio Ghibli film and assumed it was one of his/my memory got messed up. I know and remember Whisper of the Heart from Studio Ghibli was one I saw, and thought OK but unnecessarily whimsical.

I think my issue with the Miyazaki I have seen is that I have a relatively low tolerance for whimsy, and I do not get swept away in visuals so easily. And from what I hear those are 2 of his strengths. It's a personal thing but, especially with being swept away in images, I stop being impressed or interested very very fast. I mean I know Avatar (as another film example) had incredible imagery, but I stopped caring about that after about 10 minutes. For me it is characters and their interactions that really make me love a story (or great action).

So if there are any VERY character heavy/low whimsy films of his you could recommend I might see what everyone else does.

But by contrast I can forgive poor animation/fx etc very easily if I like the characters.



And seriously, The Land Before Time is one of the most moving films I have ever seen in my life. How does that not even get onto the list????

Try Monoke. Less Whimsy than usual.

Copper
2012-02-25, 10:25 AM
This will probably be against the current which this thread is flowing, but I think that the "top x y of all time" idea is an inherently silly one. I mean, I would have quarrel with even a top list that I myself have brought together.
This. Ultimately, it just comes down to opinion. So while it may be a fun conversation to have with your friends, you ca't really count any list like this to be counted as fact.

HandofShadows
2012-02-25, 10:57 AM
It's probably not a bad list for American animation, yes. Of course, it lacks all foreign animation, though.


As others have noted lacking European animation. But certainly not lacking in Japanese animation. Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Howl's Moving Castle and Spirited Away are just a few in there. Looks like 11 films from Japan made it on the list.

Reverent-One
2012-02-25, 12:52 PM
As others have noted lacking European animation. But certainly not lacking in Japanese animation. Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Howl's Moving Castle and Spirited Away are just a few in there. Looks like 11 films from Japan made it on the list.

FYI, Eldan was referring to the AFI list of top 10 animated movies, not the rotten tomatoes list.

HandofShadows
2012-02-25, 01:19 PM
Opps. Sorry.

Eldan
2012-02-25, 01:29 PM
Yes. What I meant was that the AF1 list was a pretty good one for American movies. While there are a few on there I don't like all that much, I can't deny that probably all of those were at least culturally significant.