PDA

View Full Version : Heavyweights: Ichigo vs Goku vs Superman



RaggedAngel
2012-02-23, 02:52 AM
I, like most huge nerds, often wonder who will win in various match-ups between characters. Several of these match-ups have been posted on this very site, often involving characters from different series.

Something I've noticed over the years, however, is that certain characters win every fight they're in without much thought. If the fight is a simple, direct confrontation, a battle of muscle an will, certain protagonists have enough raw power to shatter worlds.

I want to know who's more world-shattering, in your opinion. So, who's going to win in a brawl: Ichigo Kurosaki, Son Goku, or Kal-El? We're going to assume that they're fighting on an infinite, nondescript battlefield with no bystanders.

If it's been a while since you've seen them in action:
http://www.gokufanclub.com/images/images/goku_ss3furious.jpg
http://www.hugewallpaper.com/data/media/93/ichigo%20hollow.jpg
http://blastmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/superman-flying.jpg

VanBuren
2012-02-23, 04:07 AM
As powerful as Ichigo is, the most powerful thing we've seen him do is still on a level below the other two. I'm gonna go with Goku on this one.

lord_khaine
2012-02-23, 08:16 AM
Well, if we are taking them all on the top of their power, then i would personaly place my bet on silver age superman, mostly because his ability to time travel would make it impossible for people without that ability to fight him on equal terms.

Selrahc
2012-02-23, 08:33 AM
Silver Age "I casually drag around Suns, reverse the flow of time, and make up super powers at will" Superman is the winner.

Current era Superman is below Goku in his most powerful states.

Ichigo is below CSupes, SASupes and Goku.

Tengu_temp
2012-02-23, 09:40 AM
Whoever wins, the real loser is the audience.

And that comes from someone who knows that Superman can be very fun when written by a good writer.

Dr.Epic
2012-02-23, 09:54 AM
Can we instead speculate how many hours/episodes it will take and how many deus ex machinas there will be?

Nerd-o-rama
2012-02-23, 10:00 AM
Isn't Goku just Japanese(-based-on-Chinese-legend) Superman anyway? I mean, look at his backstory.

Gullintanni
2012-02-23, 10:04 AM
I'm going to echo what's been said here. Silver Age Superman is essentially Pun-Pun. So, the victors, in order:

1. SA Superman
2. Goku
3. Superman
4. Ichigo

Oindoth
2012-02-23, 11:17 AM
Do Fullbrings and Hollow-whatevers and those other Soul-powers-I-don't-actually-watch-Bleach count as magic? If so, Ichigo might not be as boned as we think he is against modern day Superman. I still think he'll lose, but it might be a 20-80 thing instead of a 10-90 thing.

Psyren
2012-02-23, 11:40 AM
Isn't Goku just Japanese(-based-on-Chinese-legend) Superman anyway? I mean, look at his backstory.

Ridiculous. They're totally different!


Goku has a staff.

KnightDisciple
2012-02-23, 11:43 AM
Do Fullbrings and Hollow-whatevers and those other Soul-powers-I-don't-actually-watch-Bleach count as magic? If so, Ichigo might not be as boned as we think he is against modern day Superman. I still think he'll lose, but it might be a 20-80 thing instead of a 10-90 thing.

Hard to say. Then again, one could easily try to argue ki (or "energy" in the dub, and I may have the wrong word there) is "magical".

It may be better to give the three different universes/powersets a sort of "transparency".

Thus, Ichigo and Goku's basic strength, speed, etc don't count as magic, and their energy blasts don't count as magic.

Now, if Ichigo knew out-and-out Kido, I could maybe see an argument where it would sort of "half-count", but that's even a little fuzzy if we go with the above transparency.

As for assessments, I'd say that if we go with the pictured Goku (Super-Saiyan 3), pictured Superman (modern-era), and Ichigo, the only way Ichigo starts to truly contend is if he's both in Bankai and in his Resurreccion (what he did against the World's Saddest Clown). Even then it probably edges to the other two (who are able to consistently move really really fast rather than in short bursts like Ichigo).
Superman versus SS3 Goku's a bit tougher. Assuming a clear sunny day, I'd maybe edge it to Goku for raw power, but Supes has a bit wider variety of tricks at his disposal, so it's a tough fight no matter what.

And then afterwards they all go out for dinner and drinks and Supes and Goku try to get Ichigo to lighten up a little, with Supes giving him dating advice. :smallbiggrin:

Fredaintdead
2012-02-23, 11:47 AM
And then afterwards they all go out for dinner and drinks and Supes and Goku try to get Ichigo to lighten up a little, with Supes giving him dating advice. :smallbiggrin:

For that... you win. So much win.

Superman: "You should kiss her and then erase her mind."
Goku: "Nah, just give her some beef and she'll be yours."

And now this sounds like a fanfiction.

KnightDisciple
2012-02-23, 11:53 AM
For that... you win. So much win.

Superman: "You should kiss her and then erase her mind."
Goku: "Nah, just give her some beef and she'll be yours."

And now this sounds like a fanfiction.

Not so much with the mind-erasing kiss part, since this is Modern-Era (pre "reboot") Superman. Who managed to woo Lois Lane as his Clark Kent alter ego, which is no mean feat. He's also the character with one of the longer-running in-comics marriages that was shown to be, if not Utopian, certainly a happy, healthy relationship.

In other words, he's an adult role model Ichigo could actually get worthwhile dating advice from.

Though the image of Goku trying to "help" as Supes fights the urge to facepalm is hilarious.

Also, super-speed eating contest between Superman and Goku! The target? Candy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4BUYR9rkA4&feature=related).
(I know, just know, there's footage from that show of Clark speed-eating what must have been 3-4 pounds of snack cakes, but I'm having trouble finding it.)

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-23, 11:54 AM
The real question is where does Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann place in that list?

And yeah, as much as I hate DBZ, I have to give it to Goku for everything but Silver Age Superman.

Though I will say at the current rate of power-creep, Ichigo, Naruto, and Luffy might eventually reach that power tier.

KnightDisciple
2012-02-23, 12:07 PM
The real question is where does Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann place in that list?

And yeah, as much as I hate DBZ, I have to give it to Goku for everything but Silver Age Superman.

Though I will say at the current rate of power-creep, Ichigo, Naruto, and Luffy might eventually reach that power tier.
Gurren Lagann's only competitor is Silver Age Superman.

And like I said, I think it'd be a close fight unless we bring in SS4 Goku, then it's a lot less close.

Ichigo, maybe will reach that power, though I dunno.

Naruto, I doubt. Scale's different, which is really the same reason I doubt Ichigo will get that high.

Luffy...I don't read One Piece, but I'm strongly doubting he does.

Selrahc
2012-02-23, 12:38 PM
Gurren Lagann's only competitor is Silver Age Superman.

Of course not. The Excession from the Culture series. Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix. The Time Lords. The Downstreamers. Many many others... Gurenn Lagann is ostentatiously high powered, but that is hardly a new affectation amongst fictional universes. Other factions have been described that could give end of saga Gurenn Lagann a real fight, without even taking into account things like time travelling back to eliminate them before they spiral up.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-23, 12:48 PM
Gurren Lagann's only competitor is Silver Age Superman.

And like I said, I think it'd be a close fight unless we bring in SS4 Goku, then it's a lot less close.

Ichigo, maybe will reach that power, though I dunno.

Naruto, I doubt. Scale's different, which is really the same reason I doubt Ichigo will get that high.

Luffy...I don't read One Piece, but I'm strongly doubting he does.

Actually, I think the Shounen trio would at least stand a chance against DCAU Superman (so not ridiculously overpowered version). Reason being is that the shinigami's Kido (on second thought, I don't remember Ichigo ever actually using Kido properly so scratch that), Naruto's various raw-chakra attacks and tailed beast forms, and Luffy's haki would probably be enough to pierce Superman's defenses the same way magic tends to do.

lord_khaine
2012-02-23, 01:11 PM
Actually, I think the Shounen trio would at least stand a chance against DCAU Superman (so not ridiculously overpowered version). Reason being is that the shinigami's Kido (on second thought, I don't remember Ichigo ever actually using Kido properly so scratch that), Naruto's various raw-chakra attacks and tailed beast forms, and Luffy's haki would probably be enough to pierce Superman's defenses the same way magic tends to do.

Those attacks might indeed hurt hit, as opposed to just bounce off his chest, but i still suspect he could take the best shot each of those had to give, and still remain standing.

And thats ignoring that he has enough speed and power to make sure none of them would ever get the time to pull off a big attack.

Still, in a 1 vs 3 showdown they might actualy have a chance.

Baka Nikujaga
2012-02-23, 02:08 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/dr59xf.jpg
Berserker and Ilya are angered by his absence from this list!

Dusk Eclipse
2012-02-23, 02:17 PM
AFAIK Ichigo has never used Kido; OTOH are talking about the Shounen Trio in "normal" power? Or in Super Mode; because Third Gear Luffy + Haki, Nine-tails Naruto (the most recent one) and Ichigo in Final Getsuga Tenshou mode sound REALLY Scary,

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 03:05 PM
Right I'm gonna watch this with a big thing of popcorn and see what happens...


Actually, I think the Shounen trio would at least stand a chance against DCAU Superman (so not ridiculously overpowered version). Reason being is that the shinigami's Kido (on second thought, I don't remember Ichigo ever actually using Kido properly so scratch that), Naruto's various raw-chakra attacks and tailed beast forms, and Luffy's haki would probably be enough to pierce Superman's defenses the same way magic tends to do.

...that said I want to correct a certain misconception. Supes "weakness" to magic is that he has no special resistance to it. His vulnerability is more along to lines of Zatanna going "namrepus pots!" where he's no better off then anyone else. However magical attacks are consistently only marginally more effective then a mundane attack might be.

Basically Supes is still tougher then a human like a steel is tougher then cardboard. You wouldn't need say, just an enchanted sword but one that has the special specific magical power to cut anything period. Or at least anything non-magicial. Okay that cleared up...

...Continue! *eats popcorn*

Traab
2012-02-23, 03:09 PM
Something I read in a fanfic about naruto that makes me wonder about the whole, "Not being in goku league" The potential is there. In this story he needs insane amounts of power, so he learns to open the 8 gates, while the 8 gates are open he draws in as much nature chakra as he can stand, he then is strong enough in raw power to rip off the kyuubis seal and TAKE its power for his own, adding it to the pile. (It was written before these latest manga chapters, so evil kyuubi) At this point he has so much raw power that the earth itself is shattering for several meters around him from the sheer pressure. It gets better though, he had a clone bringing him the hero water from waterfall, which further magnifies your max chakra tenfold. In the story he didnt get that far before hitting the amount he needed, but damn. Im pretty sure it would have had a similar visual look to going super sayin 3.

But anyways, back on topic, silver age superman is an unstoppable, unbeatable, insurmountable god. The only way I think ichigo would have a shot is if his special attacks were magical based. Even then I just dont think he has the basic stats to keep up in a fight with either of the other two. He would need to be fully powered with all trumps active just to stand at the line with these three at their more basic levels. Goku has a good chance of beating anything but silver age superman. We have seen physical attacks beat superman to death, Doomsday to be specific, so energy blasts aside, I think a ss3 goku has the potential to pummel superman to death.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-23, 03:15 PM
...that said I want to correct a certain misconception. Supes "weakness" to magic is that he has no special resistance to it. His vulnerability is more along to lines of Zatanna going "namrepus pots!" where he's no better off then anyone else. However magical attacks are consistently only marginally more effective then a mundane attack might be.

Basically Supes is still tougher then a human like a steel is tougher then cardboard. You wouldn't need say, just an enchanted sword but one that has the special specific magical power to cut anything period. Or at least anything non-magicial. Okay that cleared up...

...Continue! *eats popcorn*

I've seen both versions. Magic isn't as bad as say, kryptonite, and he can still take a few blows from, say, Captain Marvel's "Shazam" lightning, but magical fire for example will actually hurt and burn him as opposed to a flamethrower which will only cause Superman to have to stifle the laughter.

Considering a lot of Nine-Tails Naruto's attack are just raw chakra, and part of the purpose of Haki in One Piece is that it automatically pierces through even supernatural defenses and can even hit Logia-users (the guys who can just turn into an element and are therefore immune to most physical attacks). I'm not going to say that they'd beat Superman, but they're at least able to go toe-to-toe for a bit and even spar without holding back too much.

Also, while I'm not sure if Final Form Ichigo has the raw power to compete, his speed is at least ridiculous enough that he could keep up in that aspect.

Dr.Epic
2012-02-23, 03:22 PM
Isn't Goku just Japanese(-based-on-Chinese-legend) Superman anyway? I mean, look at his backstory.

I don't know what you're talking about. The two are completely different. One has/had a tale.:smallwink:

Prime32
2012-02-23, 03:38 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/dr59xf.jpg
Berserker and Ilya are angered by his absence from this list!Good point. Since Superman doesn't have a finishing move, it's impossible for him to actually hurt Berserker. :smalltongue: Goku and Ichigo should be able to stop him though. And then get beaten up by Accelerator. :smallamused:


Of course not. The Excession from the Culture series. Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix. The Time Lords. The Downstreamers. Many many others... Gurenn Lagann is ostentatiously high powered, but that is hardly a new affectation amongst fictional universes. Other factions have been described that could give end of saga Gurenn Lagann a real fight, without even taking into account things like time travelling back to eliminate them before they spiral up.The one that gets brought up a lot as a TTGL counter is Giorno Giovanna from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, whose Gold Experience Requiem (http://jjba.wikia.com/wiki/Gold_Experience_Requiem) ability "reduces all actions to zero".

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-23, 03:39 PM
Good point. Since Superman doesn't have a finishing move, it's impossible for him to actually hurt Berserker. :smalltongue: Goku and Ichigo should be able to stop him though.

See, I don't know who that Berserker guy is honestly, but I'll attempt to argue this.

Superman is in a Mortal Kombat game, therefore he has a finishing move.

Prime32
2012-02-23, 03:51 PM
See, I don't know who that Berserker guy is honestly, but I'll attempt to argue this.

Superman is in a Mortal Kombat game, therefore he has a finishing move.But is it a super-special-awesome finishing move? :smalltongue: Berserker can only be harmed by a "Rank A" attack, regardless of its strength.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-23, 03:56 PM
But is it a super-special-awesome finishing move? :smalltongue: Berserker can only be harmed by a "Rank A" attack, regardless of its strength.

*shrugs* Never played the game. It is, by definition, at least Super though. :smallbiggrin:

Traab
2012-02-23, 03:57 PM
But is it a super-special-awesome finishing move? :smalltongue: Berserker can only be harmed by a "Rank A" attack, regardless of its strength.

Does being smashed in between two planets count as an A-rank finishing move?

Kato
2012-02-23, 04:12 PM
Well... most true things have already been said... Silver Age Superman is beyond most beings in the multiverse with few exceptions.

I'm not too sure about the (current/average) Superman... apparently he is below Goku what's a little surprising to me but alright. He can break planets with ease after all though I guess Sups is on par with that. But Goku is a trained martial artist where Superman usually relies on his muscles and abilities.

Ichigo... never got into Bleach but I'm pretty sure he is multiple levels behind the others. Same for both Luffy and Naruto, even nowadays. The I guess having the three Shounen battle each other would be kind of fun, maybe with some elite Fairy Tail member thrown in, Gildartz' or some such. But still, none of those compare to the first two... even when they ally together.


Berkserker sounds like a fun add-on but then again so would be Gilgamesh or Iksander.

lord_khaine
2012-02-23, 04:16 PM
AFAIK Ichigo has never used Kido; OTOH are talking about the Shounen Trio in "normal" power? Or in Super Mode; because Third Gear Luffy + Haki, Nine-tails Naruto (the most recent one) and Ichigo in Final Getsuga Tenshou mode sound REALLY Scary,

I am of course thinking about the Trio in its strongest mode, because else they wouldnt have the raw power to hurt superman.

Of course, even then their odds isnt looking to good.

Final getsuga Teenshou might push Ichigo close to supermans weight class in terms of speed and attack power, but he would be a glass cannon, and when his power boost runs out, then he would lose by default.

Nine-tails Naruto is impressive, and the beast cloak would proberly allow Naruto to take at least a couple of hits before he folds, but i dont think he is nearly fast enough to get a hit in, unless there is someone else to distract Superman, and unless his chakra based attacks are allowed to count as magical, then i doubt he would even have the needet attack power, to hurt a person who could fly though the sun, and walk away after being nuked.

Luffy is actualy the guy that gives the team a chance of winning, since Haki doesnt seems to be a purely physical attack, then it proberly has the best chance of delivering a finishing blow.
Also, rubber body would let Luffy soak a hit or 2, before Superman realise what he is fighting, and ties Luffy into a knot.
Still, gear 3 would be a bad choice, Luffy needs the speed boost from gear 2, to even have a chance of hitting anything.


But is it a super-special-awesome finishing move? Berserker can only be harmed by a "Rank A" attack, regardless of its strength.

Of course its Super, Who do you think he is!!!

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 04:30 PM
I've seen both versions. Magic isn't as bad as say, kryptonite, and he can still take a few blows from, say, Captain Marvel's "Shazam" lightning, but magical fire for example will actually hurt and burn him as opposed to a flamethrower which will only cause Superman to have to stifle the laughter.


I'd call it case in point, Captain Marvel calling out Shazam isn't exactly normal lighting its the lightning that empowers him to begin with. So if you are Supes class and can channel your power into an offensive form of course its going to hurt. But the same story that invented that idea also clocks Supes "weakness" to magic at being: can cut his thumb on a sword made by Hephaestus that can shave electrons off an atom.

So if you are in Superman's league heck yeah go nuts, you got the raw power you can hurt Supes. I'm just that say Mjolnir isn't going to cleave Supes head it because its a magic hammer and suddenly Supes head is a melon.

(JLA/Avengers: Supes beats Thor, Cap beats Bats. Only gets more awesome when the teams team-up. Find it. Read it)

VanBuren
2012-02-23, 04:31 PM
See, I don't know who that Berserker guy is honestly, but I'll attempt to argue this.

Superman is in a Mortal Kombat game, therefore he has a finishing move.

Berserker is an insane Heracles with physical stats buffed beyond what his physical stats already are. Which, considering that it's Heracles, says a lot.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 04:36 PM
Berserker is an insane Heracles with physical stats buffed beyond what his physical stats already are. Which, considering that it's Heracles, says a lot.

ehh he's arguably weaker then his comic incarnation all told.

That said its Servants are supposed to be just flat out immune to damage from "ordinary" weapons nevermind Berserker requiring attacks of "A rank" so this seems to me to be a case like Supes and Alucard. Supes isn't nessecarily threatened but at the same time its hard to figure out anything he could do to seriously hurt the opposition.

lord_khaine
2012-02-23, 04:52 PM
That said its Servants are supposed to be just flat out immune to damage from "ordinary" weapons nevermind Berserker requiring attacks of "A rank" so this seems to me to be a case like Supes and Alucard. Supes isn't nessecarily threatened but at the same time its hard to figure out anything he could do to seriously hurt the opposition.

Well, if he really had to, then Superman could allways either throw his opponents out into space, or into the sun, thats an instant win-move against most opponents who cant fly, breathe in space or teleport.

Baka Nikujaga
2012-02-23, 05:17 PM
Well, if he really had to, then Superman could allways either throw his opponents out into space, or into the sun, thats an instant win-move against most opponents who cant fly, breathe in space or teleport.

http://i51.tinypic.com/orqgqw.jpg
Berserker falls into the weird category of "if the world was destroyed by something that was not a rank A Noble Phantasm (exceeds rank B), it won't hurt him" (even then, he has eleven more "lives" that become impervious to the previously used method). Though...that might disqualify him from participating in any Power Level discussions since typical characters do not specifically meet the requirement of possessing such an object or ability...

Frozen_Feet
2012-02-23, 05:19 PM
Well, we all know that whatever else happens, Ichigo dies. At least once. :smalltongue:

Really, while Ichigo gets to mountain-crushing levels of power when fighting Aizen, he really isn't in the same weight class.

I think Final Getsuga Ichigo is about on par with Goku when he fought Piccolo Junior in the tournament at the end of Demon King Piccolo arc. I can't say which iteration of Superman would be on that level, but I'd hazard a guess one of his Golden Age incarnations where most of his powers stemmed from really high strenght due to having been born in higher gravity.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 05:30 PM
Berserker falls into the weird category of "if the world was destroyed by something that was not a rank A Noble Phantasm (exceeds rank B), it won't hurt him" (even then, he has eleven more "lives" that become impervious to the previously used method). Though...that might disqualify him from participating in any Power Level discussions since typical characters do not specifically meet the requirement of possessing such an object or ability...

Well we know its not specifically Noble Phantasms from Rin, but its an incredibly open question of how that would work for any other universe. It should but we have no way to determine it.

If only Nanoha and Fate were statted in their appearance...

Traab
2012-02-23, 05:37 PM
Of course its Super, Who do you think he is!!!


HE IS A MAN!!!!!

Baka Nikujaga
2012-02-23, 05:41 PM
That's true...Rin did hurt him, but at the same time equivalent strikes (with NPs) didn't and attacks that shouldn't have hurt him (standard GoB) did...Nasu!!!

ericgrau
2012-02-23, 06:11 PM
I-can-destroy-a-planet-at-power-level-20,000-and-now-we're-5-orders-of-magnitude-above-1-million Goku wins it. Yet for some reason stray energy balls never blow up the world even at that level so really it depends how the DBZ/superman writers feel that morning.

Even at its highest Bleach never gets that over the top so Ichigo could only beat the weakest cartoon superman. The one who actually has to exert himself to throw a tank... and actually considers a thrown tank a viable weapon for that matter.

So, in short the winner is... Batman.

EDIT: Who hacked my post? Argh, dam batman.

Tengu_temp
2012-02-23, 06:15 PM
@Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
Oh please, even among mecha there are plenty more powerful forces. Just off the top of my head, both Getter Emperor and Demonbane are so powerful in comparison that it's not even funny. I really like TTGL, but the fans of that show treat its titular mecha as if it was the strongest robot ever, which is both not true and speaks nothing about the quality of the show in question.

@Berserker
I'm pretty sure that for the purpose of crossover fights, if a character can only be defeated by Thing X that only exists in his setting it's only fair to assume that things of similar power and purpose from other settings should work too, even if they're not exactly Thing X.

@Both
What are these guys doing here anyway? I'm pretty sure this thread is about who would win in a fight of Superman, a Superman knockoff and a knockoff of a Superman knockoff.

Herpestidae
2012-02-23, 06:26 PM
@Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
Oh please, even among mecha there are plenty more powerful forces. Just off the top of my head, both Getter Emperor and Demonbane are so powerful in comparison that it's not even funny. I really like TTGL, but the fans of that show treat its titular mecha as if it was the strongest robot ever, which is both not true and speaks nothing about the quality of the show in question.

Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann was the size of a galaxy. And it was inside the TTGL.

I'm pretty sure there is no mecha that could beat it.

Primal Fury
2012-02-23, 06:41 PM
I'm fairly sure Goku will win any fight, considering his status at the end of GT (if we're counting that). This statement I found about sums it up:

If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

Tengu_temp
2012-02-23, 06:45 PM
There are official power level lists for all DB characters at all moments somewhere. They are also completely useless, because power level doesn't really mean a crap - there were fights where one of the combatants had 10, or even 100 times the other's PL and it was shown as a more or less equal battle, there were fights where one combatant had maybe a 20% PL advantage over the other but was shown to dominate him completely.

tensai_oni
2012-02-23, 06:51 PM
Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann was the size of a galaxy. And it was inside the TTGL.

I'm pretty sure there is no mecha that could beat it.

Offtopic tangent hence spoiler tags.

Demonbane
The ultimate enforcer of fair play, Demonbane can only be as strong as the enemy it faces - but it will never be weaker than its enemy either. Can manipulate reality, make it so you never existed in the first place and if it is somehow defeated - return to a point of time where it was still fine and restore itself from that point. Or just bring an army of equally strong alternate universe Demonbanes as reinforcements.

In its offtime, Demonbane destroys universes that are inhabited only by irredeemably evil beings. And because its canon is based/inspired by Cthulhu mythos, there are many such universes. Yes, this is Demonbane's past time activity.

Getter Emperor
I can make this easy for you: Do you remember Spiral Nemesis, the danger that any Spiral Power user may become and destroy the universe?

Getter Emperor IS the Spiral Nemesis. Less robot and more of a force of nature, it is the avatar of evolution that drives everything in the world. It is so massive that when shown in series, it casually destroys solar systems just by flying near them, and was, as a matter of fact, threatening to destroy the whole universe. And it keeps growing and getting stronger at an exponential rate. It cannot be defeated, only stalled for some time - and if by some miracle someone destroyed the Emperor, everyone dies. Lastly it can assimilate other things just by touch.

Oh, and Gurren Lagann was very, VERY inspired by Getter Robo by the way.

So yes. I think both of them can take TTGL, Super or not.

RaggedAngel
2012-02-23, 07:11 PM
Hm. I feel like Ichigo is being underestimated here, though that may just be because I've been recently watching Bleach.

Talking about him at the height of his power (so his fight with Aizen) his Flash Steps are essentially free-action, at-will medium range teleportation. Goku and Superman are fast, but they aren't that fast. Ichigo's strength is also more than he's getting credit for; he effortlessly stops a few attacks that have aftershocks that shatter the ground around him for hundreds of meters.

If you look at technique, Superman has none; he's so much stronger than his average opponent that he's never needed or bothered with martial arts. Goku worked his way from the ground up, and he never lost his serious kung fu skill; he's easily the best of the three if you look at technique. Ichigo, however, has a sword, meaning his reach is several times longer than the other two. Combined with his speed, I think he stands a better chance than you're giving him.

Prime32
2012-02-23, 07:24 PM
Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann was the size of a galaxy. And it was inside the TTGL.Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann was the size of the moon. TTGL was the size of a galaxy. You're thinking of Super TTGL.


That's true...Rin did hurt him, but at the same time equivalent strikes (with NPs) didn't and attacks that shouldn't have hurt him (standard GoB) did...Nasu!!!Rin's gems were A-rank by human standards (years of stored mana detonating like a bomb). If she were a Servant using the same attack then they'd be C-rank and have no effect. Gate of Babylon was able to hurt Berserker by firing tons of A-rank weapons at him (which could pierce his defence, but didn't deal enough damage individually to kill him).

Basically, any plot-central legendary weapon should be able to bypass God Hand, as should any "special attack" (giant laser etc.) that requires a lot of effort/energy to use. Maybe Superman's heat vision at maximum output could qualify, but it's rarely depicted in that way.

Traab
2012-02-23, 07:29 PM
Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann was the moon. The moon is not the size of a galaxy. :smalltongue: TTGL was the size of a galaxy. You're thinking of Super TTGL.

Rin's gems were A-rank by human standards (years of stored mana detonating like a bomb). If she were a Servant using the same attack then they'd be C-rank and have no effect.

Basically, any "special attack" (giant laser etc.) that requires a lot of effort/energy to use should be able to bypass God Hand. Maybe Superman's heat vision at maximum output could qualify, but it's rarely depicted in that way.

Smash. Him. In. Between. PLANETS! I dont care who you are, thats going to leave a mark! Heat beams are for sissies, german suplexing a PLANET onto the guy is going to ruin his day.

Steam
2012-02-23, 07:29 PM
I'll be honest here.

Superman deserves his status as a "heavyweight", so to speak. The stuff he's dealt with is pretty much on the high end of the superpower spectrum. Emperor Joker's an amazing read if you want to see just how unshakeable his resolve and how strong a force he can be. That was a story where even Batman had given up hope, and resolved the only way to stop the Joker was to kill him, which was also completely impossible. Supes still beat the Joker though.

Goku though? Eh... DBZ's never had anyone do things that match the level Supes can fight at. Nobody ever moves at lightspeed, and I know on the old gamefaqs forums I used to frequent it was pretty much admitted that Supes could take Goku any day of the week.

As for Ichigo? Well, Bleach in general is lower-mid tier shonen, at best.

If you want to talk about a seriously overpowered shonen series, look at JoJo's Bizarre Adventure or Saint Seiya. JoJo just gets crazier and crazier with its Stands, especially with stuff like Ball Breaker and Dirty Deed Done Dirt Cheap...

... And then there's Saint Seiya. Where the lowest-ranking Saints can move at mach 1 and can perform feats like reversing the flow of a waterfall by kicking into it really hard even without wearing their armor, which further bolsters their strength. And the Gold Saints can move at lightspeed, have telekinesis, teleportation, one of them has a technique that can rip your soul out of your body with just a point of his finger, multiple Saints can mindrape you or turn you into absolutely loyal killing machines, and any three Gold Saints together can recreate the Big Bang.

And any six working together can create infinite Big Bangs.

In Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas, one of the Saints is able to cockblock a Titan who controls time by transporting the both of them to a pocket dimension where time doesn't exist.

tl; dr, Supes is in a league of his own, and neither Goku or Ichigo are even the end-all, be-all of Shonen heroes when it comes to power.

DiscipleofBob
2012-02-23, 07:34 PM
Hm. I feel like Ichigo is being underestimated here, though that may just be because I've been recently watching Bleach.

Talking about him at the height of his power (so his fight with Aizen) his Flash Steps are essentially free-action, at-will medium range teleportation. Goku and Superman are fast, but they aren't that fast. Ichigo's strength is also more than he's getting credit for; he effortlessly stops a few attacks that have aftershocks that shatter the ground around him for hundreds of meters.

If you look at technique, Superman has none; he's so much stronger than his average opponent that he's never needed or bothered with martial arts. Goku worked his way from the ground up, and he never lost his serious kung fu skill; he's easily the best of the three if you look at technique. Ichigo, however, has a sword, meaning his reach is several times longer than the other two. Combined with his speed, I think he stands a better chance than you're giving him.

Unfortunately his flash steps which are faster than the naked eye are standard fare for DBZ, so nothing new there. And he has the raw strength, but that's really all he does have. The sword really isn't going to do anything special against Goku or Superman, and all of Ichigo's attacks are just standard energy blasts. Sure they're powerful energy blasts, but that's all they are, and in battles against Goku and Superman, a little more is still required. Naruto's attacks are mostly raw chakra, which essentially is just ninja-flavored magic and actually has a chance to pierce Superman's defenses. (Note: Yes I do consider the chakra and ninjutsu of Naruto to be magic in this case while the ki bursts or whatever of DBZ and the non-Kido attacks in Bleach to not be magic. I realize that the transparency is largely up for debate and difficult to prove one way or another.) One Piece's Haki specifically pierces through supernatural defenses to the point where it can directly hurt Luffy's normally invulnerable rubber body and hurt the normally untouchable Logias.

Selrahc
2012-02-23, 07:36 PM
Hm. I feel like Ichigo is being underestimated here, though that may just be because I've been recently watching Bleach.

I think you're conceptualizing the fight wrong. Things like reach and martial arts skill are things that matter when humans fight. When creatures that can smash planets fight, things like a few foot of reach or good training don't matter at all.



Goku though? Eh... DBZ's never had anyone do things that match the level Supes can fight at. Nobody ever moves at lightspeed, and I know on the old gamefaqs forums I used to frequent it was pretty much admitted that Supes could take Goku any day of the week.

It's the casual planet destruction.

Pretty much just the casual planet destruction. Nothing else in Dragonball really stands out all that much.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-02-23, 07:37 PM
It's the casual planet destruction.

Pretty much just the casual planet destruction. Nothing else in Dragonball really stands out all that much.

They also teleport, specifically, as a power. Other than that Steam's argument mostly holds up. I'm surprised that you went with a Saint Seiya reference instead of B't X, though, Steam.

Drascin
2012-02-23, 07:40 PM
Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann was the size of a galaxy. And it was inside the TTGL.

I'm pretty sure there is no mecha that could beat it.

Oh, there are. Demonbane, for example, is more or less so big it breaks the universe like a balloon because it doesn't fit inside. Ridiculous sizes are a standby of the genre - given that TTGL is about taking all the super robot clichés and either reconstructing or spinning (ha ha pun) them, this should really not surprise anyone.

Mind, TTGL does have the advantage of actually being good while Demonbane isn't, but quality is not what we're discussing here :smalltongue:.

Steam
2012-02-23, 07:42 PM
I'm surprised that you went with a Saint Seiya reference instead of B't X, though, Steam.

Well, there's two stupidly amazing feats in B't X I can think of off the top of my head.

The first is Gai having turned his body into Dark Matter, and in fact able to exist in an infinite number of places and can attack spam you at a scale where any degree of conventional defense is useless. But he lost because someone had a violin bow broadcast a soundwave on the same frequency as a baby crying out for its mother's love so screw that.

The other would be when Teppei killed Raphaello in the manga, by hitting it with the combined power of every single star in existence. But that pales in comparison to the previously mentioned "create infinite Big Bangs" thing so yeah.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 07:44 PM
That's true...Rin did hurt him, but at the same time equivalent strikes (with NPs) didn't and attacks that shouldn't have hurt him (standard GoB) did...Nasu!!!

Its explicit how Godhand works. It operates on the principle of "Rank" so even though an A rank Magecraft is only a C NP, it still works because the spell is of A rank.

And Gil simply has more 12 sword of A rank or better in Gate of Babylon. (Same with Archer)


@Berserker
I'm pretty sure that for the purpose of crossover fights, if a character can only be defeated by Thing X that only exists in his setting it's only fair to assume that things of similar power and purpose from other settings should work too, even if they're not exactly Thing X.

Normally you'd have a case, but Nasuverse have a bad habit of not giving a fig about any logic but their own. The whole universe is basically who can rewrite the rules to their best advantage.


There are official power level lists for all DB characters at all moments somewhere. They are also completely useless, because power level doesn't really mean a crap - there were fights where one of the combatants had 10, or even 100 times the other's PL and it was shown as a more or less equal battle, there were fights where one combatant had maybe a 20% PL advantage over the other but was shown to dominate him completely.

This is factually wrong, there was never that much of a disparity unless it was maybe someone holding back. Though the ridiculousness of power is why they disappeared long before the series stopped.

And well back in the day... Master Roshi blew up the moon.

Morph Bark
2012-02-23, 07:44 PM
Goku though? Eh... DBZ's never had anyone do things that match the level Supes can fight at. Nobody ever moves at lightspeed, and I know on the old gamefaqs forums I used to frequent it was pretty much admitted that Supes could take Goku any day of the week.

Gotenks was shown flying around the planet at light speed one time.

As for the matches Supes has had? I dunno much about those, but wasn't Darkseid once beaten by Batman? And Doomsday isn't really a planet destroyer IIRC. Feel free to enlighten me about greater adversaries, though let's of course assume it's current day Superman, not Silver Age.

Prime32
2012-02-23, 07:46 PM
It's the casual planet destruction.

Pretty much just the casual planet destruction. Nothing else in Dragonball really stands out all that much.DBZ also has your power level being proportionate to how fast you can see people moving, and every new enemy being too fast to see (even back in Dragonball, Goku and Piccolo were moving so fast in their fight that "even with a god's eyes I cannot see them!").
I've seen arguments that ki attacks are gravity-based, and powering up creates a time dilation effect (i.e. to Goku a five second fight seems to last 20 episodes :smalltongue:).

EDIT: And yes, Gotenks is clearly seen flying at FTL speeds.
Much earlier on: the moon is about 384,400 kilometers from Earth and it took the Apollo astronauts 5 days to reach it - compare Piccolo's energy blast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbbRp4tTH50).

Nerd-o-rama
2012-02-23, 07:53 PM
Normally you'd have a case, but Nasuverse have a bad habit of not giving a fig about any logic but their own. The whole universe is basically who can rewrite the rules to their best advantage.

Well, that just means you have to apply Nasulogic to the other characters. An "A Rank Noble Phantasm" doesn't necessarily mean "this is a character's one and only strongest attack", although it probably is. It just denotes a certain level of power, possessed by things like 1600 year old magic swords, the original pegasus, and the Necronomicon. I am fairly certain Superman could, with some effort, break stuff just as well as Excalibur could, although it'd probably have to be an epic feat even by Superman standards to be the same "kind" of power.

Alternatively, he picks Bahzahkah up and hurls him into the sun. Dude might have 11 life bars left after that, but I don't think he's getting out of there. He just doesn't really have anything going for him aside from functional immortality and superstrength, while these other three guys have that and more. This is more or less why Berserker never ends up winning in canon, either. Well, that and two of his opponents had abilities that specifically gave them hundreds of different lethal attacks, and in the other route everything just went to crap.

Prime32
2012-02-23, 07:58 PM
So Superman vs this guy then.
http://metanorn.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/NoInde00130-600x337.jpg

Traab
2012-02-23, 08:07 PM
Gotenks was shown flying around the planet at light speed one time.

As for the matches Supes has had? I dunno much about those, but wasn't Darkseid once beaten by Batman? And Doomsday isn't really a planet destroyer IIRC. Feel free to enlighten me about greater adversaries, though let's of course assume it's current day Superman, not Silver Age.

Doomsday doesnt directly destroy planets, but he has depopulated many of them in his career, simply by slaughtering everything in his path. He doesnt have any sort of ultimate "technique" that can burn a hole the size of texas through the entire crust, mantle and core of the world, or make a star go supernova, but he can do a damn fine job of killing everything on said planet one by one. He is like a really ugly saiyan. In that every time he gets killed he comes back even stronger.

Tengu_temp
2012-02-23, 08:12 PM
Normally you'd have a case, but Nasuverse have a bad habit of not giving a fig about any logic but their own. The whole universe is basically who can rewrite the rules to their best advantage.

Yeah, that's just one of the many reasons I don't like Nasuverse as a setting, just some of its characters.


This is factually wrong, there was never that much of a disparity unless it was maybe someone holding back. Though the ridiculousness of power is why they disappeared long before the series stopped.

It might be that I remembered wrong. In any case, I found this:
http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dbz/power-levels%28new%29.htm

Starwulf
2012-02-23, 08:13 PM
Hard to say. Then again, one could easily try to argue ki (or "energy" in the dub, and I may have the wrong word there) is "magical".

It may be better to give the three different universes/powersets a sort of "transparency".

Thus, Ichigo and Goku's basic strength, speed, etc don't count as magic, and their energy blasts don't count as magic.

Now, if Ichigo knew out-and-out Kido, I could maybe see an argument where it would sort of "half-count", but that's even a little fuzzy if we go with the above transparency.

As for assessments, I'd say that if we go with the pictured Goku (Super-Saiyan 3), pictured Superman (modern-era), and Ichigo, the only way Ichigo starts to truly contend is if he's both in Bankai and in his Resurreccion (what he did against the World's Saddest Clown). Even then it probably edges to the other two (who are able to consistently move really really fast rather than in short bursts like Ichigo).
Superman versus SS3 Goku's a bit tougher. Assuming a clear sunny day, I'd maybe edge it to Goku for raw power, but Supes has a bit wider variety of tricks at his disposal, so it's a tough fight no matter what.

And then afterwards they all go out for dinner and drinks and Supes and Goku try to get Ichigo to lighten up a little, with Supes giving him dating advice. :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, why does it have to be SS3 Goku? Has no-one watched DBGT, or do they consider it non-canon? Because SS4 Goku is significantly more powerful, eventually fighting and destroying the 7 evil dragons that spawned from the dragonballs negative energy, eventually using his lifeforce to cleanse the dragonballs, essentially becoming the Eternal Dragon, which pretty much makes him close to omnipotent.

Prime32
2012-02-23, 08:17 PM
essentially becoming the Eternal Dragon, which pretty much makes him close to omnipotent.Omnipotent, ay? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg4VNZIWiys) :smalltongue:

Tengu_temp
2012-02-23, 08:18 PM
Nobody is talking about GT because it's awful even by Dragonball's incredibly high standards, anime-only and non-canon by Toriyama's own words.

Starwulf
2012-02-23, 08:21 PM
Nobody is talking about GT because it's awful even by Dragonball's incredibly high standards, anime-only and non-canon by Toriyama's own words.

Still, if we are including Silver Age Superman, whose powerlevel is ridiculous by any standard, we should be able to use SS4 Goku, and by that, I mean end of Series SS4 goku, at which point in time, I think the fight would be significantly more close then has previously been mentioned, even with SA Supes.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 09:09 PM
Well, that just means you have to apply Nasulogic to the other characters. An "A Rank Noble Phantasm" doesn't necessarily mean "this is a character's one and only strongest attack", although it probably is. It just denotes a certain level of power, possessed by things like 1600 year old magic swords, the original pegasus, and the Necronomicon. I am fairly certain Superman could, with some effort, break stuff just as well as Excalibur could, although it'd probably have to be an epic feat even by Superman standards to be the same "kind" of power.

Problem is this is literally not relevant to Godhand. It explicitly doesn't care about the actual damage dealt going beyond the rules of reality. This is backed up by Rin killing him with A rank magecraft which equates to only a C rank Noble Phantams.

This is very normal for the Nasuverse too. Its a place where raw power is of almost no importance, combat is decided by who's concept has the fewest flaws compared to their opponent's. Because of how common it is to operate on the concept of altering the very rules of reality's logic.

Gae Bolg for different example would kill Superman if Lancer has a chance to use it because it takes the result (stab in the heart) as more true/logical then any ordinary arguments against it.


Alternatively, he picks Bahzahkah up and hurls him into the sun. Dude might have 11 life bars left after that, but I don't think he's getting out of there.

Might work, or he might just go into spirit form and come back. Though otherwise yes, Berserker's sealed active abilities really really hamper him. I don't think Berserker can do a thing to Supes.



It might be that I remembered wrong. In any case, I found this:
http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dbz/power-levels%28new%29.htm

Yeah unless those were in some author Q&A (which I'd like a cite to go find myself) those are just someones opinion. The literally don't have scouter's past Freiza. And so help I'm not seeing any of the big variances.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-02-23, 09:15 PM
But stabbing Superman in the heart wouldn't kill him (unless Lancer strapped some Kryptonite on the end of Gae Bolg, in which case more power to him). You can't just declare one universe's rules the only ones that apply, is my point.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-23, 09:32 PM
But stabbing Superman in the heart wouldn't kill him (unless Lancer strapped some Kryptonite on the end of Gae Bolg, in which case more power to him). You can't just declare one universe's rules the only ones that apply, is my point.

Sure it would, Gae Bolg causes cursed wounds afterall. And AFAIK Supes doesn't lack vital organs, they are just normally very hard to damage and make the damage stick.

Devonix
2012-02-23, 10:34 PM
Still, if we are including Silver Age Superman, whose powerlevel is ridiculous by any standard, we should be able to use SS4 Goku, and by that, I mean end of Series SS4 goku, at which point in time, I think the fight would be significantly more close then has previously been mentioned, even with SA Supes.

If we are including actual shown feats for GT then technically SSJ4 Goku is weaker then SS3

Anyway I still consider Modern day Supes to be the winner in a fight between Goku and Superman. The feats shown between the characters are just tilted more in Superman's Favor.

Also something that I don't think gets tossed around enough is that contrary to an opinion that got started Superman is a not dumb muscle in a fight, he's one of the most technically proficient fighters in comics.

Each fight is done calculatingly deciding the best use of powers and manuvers designed to defeat the opponent without damaging the surrounding area harming bystanders or even harming the opponent more than nessesary.

Superman rarely stands still and most of the time doesn't even close into melee with a person for more than a quick attack and then he's gone.

He'll Heatvision you from every angle and then dart in for a quick punch. Or Superbreath you then toss you into a mountain.

Before the first punch is ever thrown in a superman fight he uses his eidetic memory to see every bit of the battlefield memorize it and then use it in the battle. I compare it to the way fights were handled in the old Action Man series before that show turned to crap as an example of how superman sees combat.


BTW I say Thor more times than not takes a fight between Superman Goku and Thor. He's got even more high end feats than Supes in his solo fights Defeating Galactus The Phoenix as well as injuring Celestials.

Steam
2012-02-23, 11:33 PM
Still, if we are including Silver Age Superman, whose powerlevel is ridiculous by any standard, we should be able to use SS4 Goku, and by that, I mean end of Series SS4 goku, at which point in time, I think the fight would be significantly more close then has previously been mentioned, even with SA Supes.

GT needs to be thrown straight out. Seriously.

You have stupid sequences depicting SS4 Goku being hurt by attacks while Base Kid Goku somehow shrugs them off without harm. You have sequences where SS4 Goku has trouble lifting upwards of forty tons to boot. You have Gohan apparantly being able to go Super Saiyan, while his big powerup at the end of the series was supposed to make him so strong that Super Saiyan was <i>unnecessary</i> and <i>impossible</i> for him.

The difference between allowing SS4 Goku is the equivalent of approving one of the inconsistent as hell movie villains. Or just allowing Goku from some fanfiction where he becomes omnipotent or something. He's got no place in the discussion because he has no *consistency*. You can't say "well, he was strongest then, so we ought to". Toriyama had next to no involvement with GT to boot.

At least Silver Age Supes had a loose sense of consistency. Like during Final Crisis when they reference how he would end up drawing out powers as they were needed and stuff like that.

Heck, Silver Age Supes isn't even the strongest he's been. Look at the stuff he does in All-Star Superman.

EDIT:


But stabbing Superman in the heart wouldn't kill him (unless Lancer strapped some Kryptonite on the end of Gae Bolg, in which case more power to him). You can't just declare one universe's rules the only ones that apply, is my point.

Gae Bolg isn't even guaranteed. Saber survived it with B-rank luck.

It also runs on the in-universe logic within the 'verse. Fate is a much more mutable thing in the DC Universe to boot, hence why Booster Gold has to go around protecting the timeline.

Devonix
2012-02-23, 11:34 PM
Also when Batman defeated Darkseid he was posessing a human body. Darksied is a consept and physically only as powerful as the host can handle. even then Batman defeated him using his own tech.

Devonix
2012-02-23, 11:35 PM
GT needs to be thrown straight out. Seriously.

You have stupid sequences depicting SS4 Goku being hurt by attacks while Base Kid Goku somehow shrugs them off without harm. You have sequences where SS4 Goku has trouble lifting upwards of forty tons to boot. You have Gohan apparantly being able to go Super Saiyan, while his big powerup at the end of the series was supposed to make him so strong that Super Saiyan was <i>unnecessary</i> and <i>impossible</i> for him.

The difference between allowing SS4 Goku is the equivalent of approving one of the inconsistent as hell movie villains. Or just allowing Goku from some fanfiction where he becomes omnipotent or something. He's got no place in the discussion because he has no *consistency*. You can't say "well, he was strongest then, so we ought to". Toriyama had next to no involvement with GT to boot.

At least Silver Age Supes had a loose sense of consistency. Like during Final Crisis when they reference how he would end up drawing out powers as they were needed and stuff like that.

Heck, Silver Age Supes isn't even the strongest he's been. Look at the stuff he does in All-Star Superman.


And then look at the DC 1million story which takes place after the events of All Star Superman where he's even more powerful.

There is one thing I will never understand about Dragon Ball and DBZ Planets are stupidly fragile in both series. I mean seriously Roshi can blow up planets at the beginning of Dragon Ball. Roshi! who's equivilent power rating is like 20 at the time.

Anteros
2012-02-24, 12:19 AM
I'll be honest here.

Superman deserves his status as a "heavyweight", so to speak. The stuff he's dealt with is pretty much on the high end of the superpower spectrum. Emperor Joker's an amazing read if you want to see just how unshakeable his resolve and how strong a force he can be. That was a story where even Batman had given up hope, and resolved the only way to stop the Joker was to kill him, which was also completely impossible. Supes still beat the Joker though.

Goku though? Eh... DBZ's never had anyone do things that match the level Supes can fight at. Nobody ever moves at lightspeed, and I know on the old gamefaqs forums I used to frequent it was pretty much admitted that Supes could take Goku any day of the week.


Umm...Raditz is stated to be faster than light in the very first DBZ arc. By the end of DBZ the characters are literally trillions of times more powerful than that.



GT needs to be thrown straight out. Seriously.

You have stupid sequences depicting SS4 Goku being hurt by attacks while Base Kid Goku somehow shrugs them off without harm. You have sequences where SS4 Goku has trouble lifting upwards of forty tons to boot. You have Gohan apparantly being able to go Super Saiyan, while his big powerup at the end of the series was supposed to make him so strong that Super Saiyan was <i>unnecessary</i> and <i>impossible</i> for him.

The difference between allowing SS4 Goku is the equivalent of approving one of the inconsistent as hell movie villains. Or just allowing Goku from some fanfiction where he becomes omnipotent or something. He's got no place in the discussion because he has no *consistency*. You can't say "well, he was strongest then, so we ought to". Toriyama had next to no involvement with GT to boot.

At least Silver Age Supes had a loose sense of consistency. Like during Final Crisis when they reference how he would end up drawing out powers as they were needed and stuff like that.

Heck, Silver Age Supes isn't even the strongest he's been. Look at the stuff he does in All-Star Superman.

EDIT:



Gae Bolg isn't even guaranteed. Saber survived it with B-rank luck.

It also runs on the in-universe logic within the 'verse. Fate is a much more mutable thing in the DC Universe to boot, hence why Booster Gold has to go around protecting the timeline.

Umm...are you really arguing that Silver Age Supes' power level wasn't inconsistently displayed? Did you ever actually read any of those comics?

Anteros
2012-02-24, 12:23 AM
Doomsday doesnt directly destroy planets, but he has depopulated many of them in his career, simply by slaughtering everything in his path. He doesnt have any sort of ultimate "technique" that can burn a hole the size of texas through the entire crust, mantle and core of the world, or make a star go supernova, but he can do a damn fine job of killing everything on said planet one by one. He is like a really ugly saiyan. In that every time he gets killed he comes back even stronger.

This doesn't make sense. Even if he spends every second of the day killing, he isn't going to be able to depopulate a planet the size of earth. Overall he's probably less deadly to the population of a planet than cancer, heart disease, or hunger. People breed pretty quick.

Steam
2012-02-24, 12:41 AM
Umm...Raditz is stated to be faster than light in the very first DBZ arc. By the end of DBZ the characters are literally trillions of times more powerful than that.

Ah. You're referring to "Dub Raditz", as the DBZ fans on the previously mentioned Gamefaqs forum put it. So let me clear this up for you.

Raditz never moved at the speed of light.

In one of the dubs, Piccolo comments that Raditz must have been moving at the speed of light to dodge the attack. It was a point of exaggerating (the dubs for DBZ loved doing that, after all) and it's also not found in the Japanese version or the manga.

The anime had so many filler scenes which muck up so much you're better off not taking them into consideration. Like how Yamcha can somehow defeat Pican; a character who at the same time is able to fight evenly with dead Goku and even beat Cell. Not to mention just filler scenes thrown into pre-existing fights, like when Goku could somehow dodge every attack Burter and Jeice threw at him without even appearing to move.

When you talk Dragon Ball, stick with the manga.


Umm...are you really arguing that Silver Age Supes' power level wasn't inconsistently displayed? Did you ever actually read any of those comics?

Indeed I have read quite a few of the comics. And the difference between them and GT is they actually happened.

GT's not canon. The Silver Age stuff might have been overwritten by Crisis on Infinite Earths and it might have used recycled plots out the wazoo, but they actually did happen. The fact that the Psycho Pirate remembers them is proof enough. Then there's the "survivors" of the old Multi-verse as well.

GT is glorified fanfiction not even recognized by the rest of the franchise. Heck, there's always those plans for a Dragon Ball MMO which would completely supplant GT.

The Silver Age Superman comics, on the other hand, are recognized and mentioned to this day.

Devonix
2012-02-24, 12:53 AM
Ah. You're referring to "Dub Raditz", as the DBZ fans on the previously mentioned Gamefaqs forum put it. So let me clear this up for you.

Raditz never moved at the speed of light.

In one of the dubs, Piccolo comments that Raditz must have been moving at the speed of light to dodge the attack. It was a point of exaggerating (the dubs for DBZ loved doing that, after all) and it's also not found in the Japanese version or the manga.

The anime had so many filler scenes which muck up so much you're better off not taking them into consideration. Like how Yamcha can somehow defeat Pican; a character who at the same time is able to fight evenly with dead Goku and even beat Cell. Not to mention just filler scenes thrown into pre-existing fights, like when Goku could somehow dodge every attack Burter and Jeice threw at him without even appearing to move.

When you talk Dragon Ball, stick with the manga.



Indeed I have read quite a few of the comics. And the difference between them and GT is they actually happened.

GT's not canon. The Silver Age stuff might have been overwritten by Crisis on Infinite Earths and it might have used recycled plots out the wazoo, but they actually did happen. The fact that the Psycho Pirate remembers them is proof enough. Then there's the "survivors" of the old Multi-verse as well.

GT is glorified fanfiction not even recognized by the rest of the franchise. Heck, there's always those plans for a Dragon Ball MMO which would completely supplant GT.

The Silver Age Superman comics, on the other hand, are recognized and mentioned to this day.

There are no PLANS for the Dragon Ball MMO its out You can play it if you want to and its the Canon continuation of Dragon ball made by toryiyama and ignores GT Also people please ignore the whole Power levels thing it makes no sense at all and is never explained properly.

Devonix
2012-02-24, 12:56 AM
This doesn't make sense. Even if he spends every second of the day killing, he isn't going to be able to depopulate a planet the size of earth. Overall he's probably less deadly to the population of a planet than cancer, heart disease, or hunger. People breed pretty quick.

He doesn't kill them individually he detonates planetary weapons destroyes reactors and does everything possible to kill as many people as fast as possible.

Steam
2012-02-24, 01:00 AM
There are no PLANS for the Dragon Ball MMO its out You can play it if you want to and its the Canon continuation of Dragon ball made by toryiyama and ignores GT Also people please ignore the whole Power levels thing it makes no sense at all and is never explained properly.

Thank you for that. This is what happens when I turn my focus to stuff like Hajime no Ippo.

This just further proves my point that anything GT-related should be ignored.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-02-24, 02:14 AM
Sure it would, Gae Bolg causes cursed wounds afterall. And AFAIK Supes doesn't lack vital organs, they are just normally very hard to damage and make the damage stick.

It might work by virtue of being magic, but considering a Nasuverse Luck stat is comparable to any other universe's Plot Armor stat, I think Supes would "coincidentally" find some other way around dying from it. Like every single other person Lancer ever used it on.

(That whole stabfest in the Einzbern manor was just regular spear prodding, not the proper barbed spear attack)

Steam
2012-02-24, 02:24 AM
It might work by virtue of being magic, but considering a Nasuverse Luck stat is comparable to any other universe's Plot Armor stat, I think Supes would "coincidentally" find some other way around dying from it. Like every single other person Lancer ever used it on.

(That whole stabfest in the Einzbern manor was just regular spear prodding, not the proper barbed spear attack)

To be fair, Gae Bolg does works on Bazette in Hollow Ataraxia. Then again, in Hollow Ataraxia, death is cheaper than usual in the Nasuverse so it doesn't even stick. Same goes for Bazette's Fragarachs.

Baka Nikujaga
2012-02-24, 02:45 AM
To be fair, Gae Bolg does works on Bazette in Hollow Ataraxia. Then again, in Hollow Ataraxia, death is cheaper than usual in the Nasuverse so it doesn't even stick. Same goes for Bazette's Fragarachs.


http://i56.tinypic.com/2chri3n.jpg
I imagine the same result would apply to Superman.

Drascin
2012-02-24, 02:47 AM
It might work by virtue of being magic, but considering a Nasuverse Luck stat is comparable to any other universe's Plot Armor stat, I think Supes would "coincidentally" find some other way around dying from it. Like every single other person Lancer ever used it on.

(That whole stabfest in the Einzbern manor was just regular spear prodding, not the proper barbed spear attack)

Indeed. Gae Bolg is an attack that basically can only be deflected by plot armor - but this is freaking Superman we're talking about. THE superhero. His plot armor probably makes the Executor star destroyer look small and tame.

And conversely, Lancer has pretty much the inverse of plot armor. I don't know what the term for that would be. But basically, nothing Lancer ever does works, generally, even if all logic should have it going his way. Being Lancer is, after all, suffering :smalltongue:.

Steam
2012-02-24, 03:12 AM
Anyways, we're still getting off-subject here.

The point still stands that Superman is just leagues beyond Goku and Ichigo.

I'd also like to point out that Superman's vulnerability to magic just turns him into a glass cannon in that case. He'd be as susceptible to injury from it as a normal person, but it doesn't get in the way of his strength.

And speaking of which, there's also the whole theory that Superman intentionally holds back against pretty much everyone he fights on ethical grounds. And when he does cut loose that whole magic vulnerability thing doesn't slow him down in the slightest.

In the JLA/Avengers miniseries, at one point he curbstomps Thor, even commenting that because he knows just how tough Thor is, he's got no problem in hitting him with everything he's got. This beatdown being handed to a guy who was able to bloody up Superman in the opening blow of their first fight. And to top it all off, in the big fight scene that makes up the better part of the final issue, Superman solos Count Nefaria, a villain who typically required the combined efforts of the entire Avengers group (Thor included) to beat.

And there's also all the times that Superman's had to end up fighting Captain Marvel, be it in Kingdom Come or Public Enemies or wherever else. Again, yeah, Supes has a disadvantage because his enemy's magical, but that really equates to just giving the other guy a sporting chance.

Also, just for clarification, JLA/Avengers isn't just one big DC circlejerk. The guy who wrote it, Kurt Busiek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Busiek), has written a great deal of Marvel and DC comics and the story itself was the best crossover I've ever read.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-24, 03:32 AM
Indeed I have read quite a few of the comics. And the difference between them and GT is they actually happened.

GT's not canon. The Silver Age stuff might have been overwritten by Crisis on Infinite Earths and it might have used recycled plots out the wazoo, but they actually did happen. The fact that the Psycho Pirate remembers them is proof enough. Then there's the "survivors" of the old Multi-verse as well.

GT is glorified fanfiction not even recognized by the rest of the franchise. Heck, there's always those plans for a Dragon Ball MMO which would completely supplant GT.

The Silver Age Superman comics, on the other hand, are recognized and mentioned to this day.

There's nothing wrong with citing DBGT as long as one is being clear its that particular incarnation. Much like one could cite DCAU Superman, or an Elseworld... or one from a period retconned out of existence.

And you don't seem to understand the nature of a cosmic retcon. COIE wiped out the past, the survivors are fundamentally errors in time and space because they lack a past. That's just the nature of the retcon, but again retroactive continuity.

So if we want to be purists on only canon which by definition there can be only one of... well Supes was rather recently rebooted and all his past is gone again without a new status quo quite being established yet because comics take forever nowadays with writing for the trade. Among the changes Supes is younger, single, doesn't wear the red speedo, and his suit is actually armor-ish, heck he might not have died and certainly the details of that story change. He's also canon.

What's his current power level you ask, crap if I know. Action Comics (sinfully renumbered) is a flash-back to when he leapt tall buildings in a single bound, Superman has challenged him terribly much yet. I do know Supergirl recently remarked that she wouldn't get anywhere flying through space at her top speed, take that as you will.

Amusing detail Grant Morrison set out to return Supes to his New Deal Hero roots... meaning you guessed it Superdickery! Supes first act in the new continuity is to force a confession out of a corrupt business man wearing jeans, a t-shirt, and his baby blanket after muscling into this guy's private property. Why is this returning Superman to his roots... because its accurate. Seriously go find a scan or check out Linkara's review of Action Comic #1, Superman began as a total ****.


It might work by virtue of being magic, but considering a Nasuverse Luck stat is comparable to any other universe's Plot Armor stat, I think Supes would "coincidentally" find some other way around dying from it. Like every single other person Lancer ever used it on.

(That whole stabfest in the Einzbern manor was just regular spear prodding, not the proper barbed spear attack)

Gae Bolg isn't actually used that much. Saber is the only case to have survived it in F/SN. Because Lancer is continually shafted for focus and never uses it against Archer for whatever reason. And what is forgotten is that while Saber did survive, it wasn't simply luck but also her precognition level Instinct that allowed her to even know she had to dodge then her Luck let that actually happen. Resulting in a less lethal measure and helped out by Saber's magical recuperation abilities.

Though I'd really rather not get into an argument over whether Supes or King Arthur has more plot armor. My opinion is well less because you simply don't run into things that can seriously hurt Supes all that often

Though back to Supes and Lancer for a second, Supes is more then capable of keeping out of Gae Bolg's activation range. It is not a trivial task for Lancer to avoid being punched down a few blocks every-time he closes into melee range.

lord_khaine
2012-02-24, 05:49 AM
This is very normal for the Nasuverse too. Its a place where raw power is of almost no importance, combat is decided by who's concept has the fewest flaws compared to their opponent's. Because of how common it is to operate on the concept of altering the very rules of reality's logic.

Then doesnt this mean that Superman can simply alter the rule about needing a A-rank attack, and then simply pound berserker flat like a pancake?

Roderick_BR
2012-02-24, 06:05 AM
Hard to say. Then again, one could easily try to argue ki (or "energy" in the dub, and I may have the wrong word there) is "magical".

It may be better to give the three different universes/powersets a sort of "transparency".

Thus, Ichigo and Goku's basic strength, speed, etc don't count as magic, and their energy blasts don't count as magic.


At this point, I don't think simple energy based attacks (even ki ones) counts as magic anymore than your usual energy blaster in comics. Ichigo's spiritual powers, though, is more mystic, so counts as magic.

Something a LOT of peopel forget, though, is that Superman is not more vulnerable to magic than an average person. It's not like his superpowers are invalidated by magic, it's just that he has no particular invulnerability against it. You could say he has a DR <n>/magic, or that most magic has the normal "ignore mundane DR" ability. Any spell that can affect him should affect any other normal super hero in his world, except for mystic heroes, that DO have protection against it (for example, Zatanna, a magician, and Captain Marvel with built in magic resistance due to the origin of his powers).

Devonix
2012-02-24, 07:00 AM
[QUOTE=Soras Teva Gee;12781008]There's nothing wrong with citing DBGT as long as one is being clear its that particular incarnation. Much like one could cite DCAU Superman, or an Elseworld... or one from a period retconned out of existence.

And you don't seem to understand the nature of a cosmic retcon. COIE wiped out the past, the survivors are fundamentally errors in time and space because they lack a past. That's just the nature of the retcon, but again retroactive continuity.

So if we want to be purists on only canon which by definition there can be only one of... well Supes was rather recently rebooted and all his past is gone again without a new status quo quite being established yet because comics take forever nowadays with writing for the trade. Among the changes Supes is younger, single, doesn't wear the red speedo, and his suit is actually armor-ish, heck he might not have died and certainly the details of that story change. He's also canon.



If you want to use GT thats fine but when I say non canon Its similar to the non canoness of an EU comic or something. The events and rules of the series don't connect to the rest of the either Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball GT.

Its poorly written and actually makes the characters weaker in power in example includes the whole Goku not even lifting 40tons



As for the DC Reboot EFF that the whole thing makes no sense. Yes he did die and come back Doomsday happened All that stuff that you remember happened just in a few different ways. The Superman and Justice league issues are just happening a few years in the past atm. Batman and Green Lantern are the only books atm that aren't flashbacks.

Nerd-o-rama
2012-02-24, 09:50 AM
I'm going to keep talking about Fate/Stay Night since I like it better than Dragonball or Bleach.

Really, I think if anyone from F/SN would have a chance against Superman, it'd probably be Saber. To paraphrase Prime32, I think, she's got a 20 gigaplot magic laser that, if she has enough juice to use it, destroys pretty much everything by virtue of the whole 1600 year-old magic sword thing. Throw on a Command Seal to make sure she hits and maybe another one to power it up and it'd at least be a KO.

That's using pretty much all reasonable resources and assuming she uses them before Supes just punches her silly though. I'm also giving her a hypothetical "competent Master" advantage, which she gets for all of half a route in canon (or one total if we're counting Saber Alter) - in other words, it's Saber at her maximum power vs. Superman not being particularly optimized.

Traab
2012-02-24, 10:13 AM
This doesn't make sense. Even if he spends every second of the day killing, he isn't going to be able to depopulate a planet the size of earth. Overall he's probably less deadly to the population of a planet than cancer, heart disease, or hunger. People breed pretty quick.

Well keep in mind most planets that have Doomsday land on it tend to form up large armies of everything they've got to try and fight this creature, and wind up obliterated. Then, as someone else said, his destruction tends to hit things like power plants and the like causing massive wide scale devastation as nuclear plants, fusion plants, and other random sci fi energy sources get blown up. Combine all that with the fact that this is mostly just his backstory, so I dont think the details are very well documented, just, "Doomsday landed on this planet, killed almost everyone on it, then was somehow launched back into space to land on another world and do it again" so you have to figure out how he did it yourself or just hand wave it and accept it. So yeah, he cant blow up a planet with some innate power, but he can kill almost everything on it, and is strong enough to punch superman so hard he dies from it. No magic attack, no blade blessed by the gods, he just punches superman to death.


And Steam, dont forget his World of Cardboard speech he gives to darkseid in the JLU cartoon. Look it up on youtube. He basically rants about how much it sucks to have to treat everything with kid gloves because a sneeze he isnt careful with might blast a hole through whoever he stands next to. Then proceeds to hit darkseid so hard he goes flipping through the high rises of three buildings without slowing down. Pretty sure he would have landed about 5 miles outside of metropolis if superman hadnt then shown up in his low orbital trajectory and did a hammerblow to send him into the ground like a meteor. Basic point is yeah, like batmans ability to "plan for every contingency" Superman has his, "Im always holding back" line to explain why he is suddenly beating the crap out of someone or something he was losing against up till now.

KnightDisciple
2012-02-24, 10:52 AM
At this point, I don't think simple energy based attacks (even ki ones) counts as magic anymore than your usual energy blaster in comics. Ichigo's spiritual powers, though, is more mystic, so counts as magic.

Something a LOT of peopel forget, though, is that Superman is not more vulnerable to magic than an average person. It's not like his superpowers are invalidated by magic, it's just that he has no particular invulnerability against it. You could say he has a DR <n>/magic, or that most magic has the normal "ignore mundane DR" ability. Any spell that can affect him should affect any other normal super hero in his world, except for mystic heroes, that DO have protection against it (for example, Zatanna, a magician, and Captain Marvel with built in magic resistance due to the origin of his powers).
I was saying exactly that, that energy blasts aren't Magical. I think Ichigo's blast is a fuzzy line. It's "mystical", but ultimately "spiritual power" is treated basically like ki in Dragonball. It's a well of internal power you draw upon to make yourself meaner in a fight.

And yes, I realize he's not "vulnerable" to magic. My stance focused more on what did and didn't "count" as magic.

But if his special protections don't hold up against a Getsuga Tenshou, he's in trouble. It's not planet-shattering, but those blasts certainly would put a hurting on him (though since magic doesn't make him powerless, he'd probably dodge).


Anyways, I'm still stuck on the "it was all a friendly spar, and they go out to dinner afterwards" image.
Tell me you guys don't see the potential in that! :smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2012-02-24, 11:28 AM
Anyways, I'm still stuck on the "it was all a friendly spar, and they go out to dinner afterwards" image.
Tell me you guys don't see the potential in that! :smallbiggrin:I doubt Goku would want to see Superman hurt, for the same reason that Uub threw his match against Hercule in GT - Superman gives people hope just by existing. So Superman is likely to survive regardless of what version we're using.

Traab
2012-02-24, 11:29 AM
I was saying exactly that, that energy blasts aren't Magical. I think Ichigo's blast is a fuzzy line. It's "mystical", but ultimately "spiritual power" is treated basically like ki in Dragonball. It's a well of internal power you draw upon to make yourself meaner in a fight.

And yes, I realize he's not "vulnerable" to magic. My stance focused more on what did and didn't "count" as magic.

But if his special protections don't hold up against a Getsuga Tenshou, he's in trouble. It's not planet-shattering, but those blasts certainly would put a hurting on him (though since magic doesn't make him powerless, he'd probably dodge).


Anyways, I'm still stuck on the "it was all a friendly spar, and they go out to dinner afterwards" image.
Tell me you guys don't see the potential in that! :smallbiggrin:

Meh, i could see superman and goku doing the "friendly spar" thing. But ichigo would be too far behind them in ability and resilience to let them go even close to all out in their fun without him getting severely injured. Basically, like I think I said in an earlier post, Ichigo has to go all out, unleash every trump ability he posesses, and otherwise act like its the last episode of his latest fight against a big bad just to stand up with goku and supermans basic level of power. Once goku hits ss2-3 and superman stops worrying about how people are made of wet rice paper around him, he just gets left behind in the dust.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-02-24, 02:39 PM
As for the DC Reboot EFF that the whole thing makes no sense. Yes he did die and come back Doomsday happened All that stuff that you remember happened just in a few different ways. The Superman and Justice league issues are just happening a few years in the past atm. Batman and Green Lantern are the only books atm that aren't flashbacks.

What doesn't make sense about: Ignore everything before Action Comics #1 and Superman #1 (Aside from there being an Action Comic #1 I mean)

Obviously Supes still has a past but don't treat it like there's a comic that accompanies it. There isn't and that's precisely the point. Obviously there is still a past there to the character but its now unwritten.

Viera Champion
2012-02-24, 02:57 PM
Can't forget the background music for the fight.

If you wanna see some action,
Gotta be the center of attraction.
Make sure that they got their eyes on you
like the faces you see in the magazines.

WOOOOOOOOAAHHHHHH!!

Devonix
2012-02-24, 09:50 PM
What doesn't make sense about: Ignore everything before Action Comics #1 and Superman #1 (Aside from there being an Action Comic #1 I mean)

Obviously Supes still has a past but don't treat it like there's a comic that accompanies it. There isn't and that's precisely the point. Obviously there is still a past there to the character but its now unwritten.

Actually that would have made the reboot a lot easier to stomach but that isn't what's going on here.

Identity Crisis still happened. Blackest Night still happened Final Crisis still happened. all of the major event stories still happened in the new continuity just in different ways that haven't been revealed yet.

Some Comics are taking place some time in the past and others in the future. There is no proper way of knowing just what is still canon.

Jason Todd still died and came back in the Batman comics Whats up with that?!?


Its more like the One More Day Reboot for Spiderman than a pure and simple new beginning for everything.