"Solomon Eat your Heart Out" [3.5e Class]

[Milo v3]

I've started to make a class known as the binder. Now before anyone says anything I realise their is a class in Tome of Magic which is called Binder. This is different.

This class can bind the souls of creatures (Generally Elementals and Outsiders) to:

Deed's, forcing them to do their binding
Objects, making them magical
Golems, to animate the inanimate
Place it in the body with another to give the body some extra power
Or even place the soul into the environment.


This class is a very, very, very, very long way from completion. But I'd like some feedback before I go to far into it. So how does it look so far. I am I heading in the right direction? Is it already overpowered?

Here is a link to it as it takes up several pages and is going to have at least twenty tables when I'm finished. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Binder_(3.5e_Class))

[Milo v3]

Over one hundred and twenty views and not a single reply...
Has it already been done? Is it to badly worded? Is it that there isn't much in the tables? Is it way too overpowered? Is it way too underpowered? Do people dislike having to go to DND Wiki just to read the class?

What am I doing wrong?

[PEACH]

It's excessively complicated even by D&D standards. It's hosted off site (which isn't immediately apparent from the first post), meaning people are unlikely to mention it. It's also a full caster with class features, which is just in general bad, and it's spread out over tons of pages with only single hyperlinks to them, so it's very hard to keep track of.

If you want it to get real criticism, don't make self pitying bump posts, and actually put the whole thing on one page, preferably the first few posts of a topic.

Anyway, the major problems I see with it, just from a cursory look at the first page:

It's real class features are that it can bind... weaker hit die creatures. Granted, it can have a good few of them, but seeing as you'd actually have to find them, and wizards can already sort of do that, it has problems. There's also the fact that there's almost no difference between willing and unwilling (they're the exact same besides half spell resistance, which a lot of monsters don't have, and I don't know why you'd need to make a roll to get something willing to help you to, well, help you). You can also bind an infinite number of summon monster IX monsters starting at level 2, which is a bit of a problem if you can scrape together the money for a scroll, but that's a bit of a minor issue. But basically, without actually getting some form of super powerful for its HD monster, you're really just getting a bunch of weaker allies that you can summon instead of being a full caster, but there are probably some exploits as well.

Really, the entire concept is, in general, not a workable one in D&D. There's no real standard for HD or CR or any metric you could use to determine binding power, and even if there was, there's a difference between being balanced for a party encounter and balanced as a permanent companion.

EDIT: The other thing is that, because of the effort involved in binding, getting any (non summoned) class features almost becomes a quest or at least a significant side mission in itself. That's not good design in general. Slowing down the game so the binder can find level appropriate summons isn't particularly useful, and you can't really bind in battle.

[TuggyNE]

There's a lot to review in this entry, given that you're actually creating a whole new subsystem, not merely a new class. In particular, you have a whole lot of very specific rules to look through, with no general guidelines; a new spell list (albeit a small one); a set of class features

Some preliminary, general notes:

Sometimes you refer to souls, and sometimes to creatures; it is not clear whether these should be the same term
Your systemic overuse of apostrophe's [sic] is somewhat annoying :smalltongue:
With reference to the title of the thread, not everyone is aware of Solomon's mythical abilities to command supernatural beings; certainly that is not what I first think of about him
Yes, D&D Wiki has a fairly bad reputation around here, although I don't think it's insurmountable; it might honestly be better to repost in a series of threads here and just cross-link them


Regarding pact binding (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pact_Binding_%28Keran_Supplement%29):
It's unclear to me what happens if a pact-bound creature fails a task irrevocably without dying; is it immediately freed? punished? forced to allow you to bind another pact?
The definition of "difficulty" should probably be expanded upon

[Milo v3]

It's excessively complicated even by D&D standards. It's hosted off site (which isn't immediately apparent from the first post), meaning people are unlikely to mention it.


It's also a full caster with class features, which is just in general bad, and it's spread out over tons of pages with only single hyperlinks to them, so it's very hard to keep track of.
You obviously haven't seen the spell list. The only reason it is a full caster is so that it can use all the Summon Monster Spells.

And I'd think it would be too long of a page to have every single binder trait for every nearly single creature in SRD, for every single type of binding, in addition to the features of the class.

But I can understand that it does make it hard to keep track of where everything is....

But I can't think of a better way to do it on that site.


If you want it to get real criticism, don't make self pitying bump posts, and actually put the whole thing on one page, preferably the first few posts of a topic.
It wasn't actually self pity I was actually simply asking what were the reasons behind no responses, a question you have now answered.

Also I believe that it would take:

One post for the class.
One for the spell list.
One for the Deed's.
At least three for the Apparatus Binding Traits.
Another three for Constructive Binding Traits.
Another three for the Soul Merge Traits.
Another three for Aura Binding Traits.
And a final post for the feats.


So I thought it would be easier for everyone concerned that the each simply link to the class (which as of now has all the necessary links at the bottom of the page).

I guess I was wrong.


It's real class features are that it can bind... weaker hit die creatures. Granted, it can have a good few of them, but seeing as you'd actually have to find them, and wizards can already sort of do that, it has problems.
You could search for them or you know you could use Summon Monster spells. That can summon several outsiders and elementals, but also notice that Binders can bind Magical Beasts summoned by Summon Monster regardless of the monsters HD.


There's also the fact that there's almost no difference between willing and unwilling (they're the exact same besides half spell resistance, which a lot of monsters don't have, and I don't know why you'd need to make a roll to get something willing to help you to, well, help you).
The reason for needing to roll even if you have the creature willing is that souls don't like being tampered with and will resist you meddling with them. That way even if you cast Charm Monster (Or Charm Person if you can bind humanoids) on it you still have to roll. But I have now changed it so that if they are willing they don't get the Will Save and that it is now a lot easier to bind willing subjects.


You can also bind an infinite number of summon monster IX monsters starting at level 2, which is a bit of a problem if you can scrape together the money for a scroll, but that's a bit of a minor issue.
What? It says this in the first bit of the Binders Pact Feature: "A Binder can only Bind up to his Binder Level + his Will Save in Hit Dice at at time."


But basically, without actually getting some form of super powerful for its HD monster, you're really just getting a bunch of weaker allies that you can summon instead of being a full caster, but there are probably some exploits as well.


Really, the entire concept is, in general, not a workable one in D&D. There's no real standard for HD or CR or any metric you could use to determine binding power
Do you mean determining the power of the binder, the base DC for the Deed's, Apparatus Binding, Etc?


there's a difference between being balanced for a party encounter and balanced as a permanent companion.
I realise that, but I'm not going to redesign all of the creatures in the monster mannual so they fit perfecty as minions.


EDIT: The other thing is that, because of the effort involved in binding, getting any (non summoned) class features almost becomes a quest or at least a significant side mission in itself.
Since a Binder, depending on there feat selection, can Bind any Type of creature. I don't see how you have to do a side mission.


That's not good design in general. Slowing down the game so the binder can find level appropriate summons isn't particularly useful, and you can't really bind in battle.
Personally I don't think that it would slow down the game. When I play tested it all it took was about ten seconds of time amounting to:
Player:I make a binding circle and summon a Lemure using Summon Monster I
Me:: Okay its summoned and trapped in the circle.
Player: I try to bind it to make it protect me.
Me:: Okay roll a binding check.
Player: *Roll a good enough*
Me:: You implant the idea of protection in the creatures mind and it now shall protect you for the rest of today.

[PEACH]

What? It says this in the first bit of the Binders Pact Feature: "A Binder can only Bind up to his Binder Level + his Will Save in Hit Dice at at time."

It says they can bind monsters summoned by summon monster regardless of hit dice.


Do you mean determining the power of the binder, the base DC for the Deed's, Apparatus Binding, Etc?

What I mean is that trying to base a classes power around other monsters doesn't work. HD and CR are terrible approximations for power.



I realise that, but I'm not going to redesign all of the creatures in the monster mannual so they fit perfecty as minions.

Then perhaps you see why I'm concerned about making the primary class feature "make monsters into minions."



Since a Binder, depending on there feat selection, can Bind any Type of creature. I don't see how you have to do a side mission.


Because feat selection and actually finding an effective creature that you can get to a specific location are pretty damn hard to do? Not every fight is going to be "The monsters come to your location;" any time you are on the offensive, you can't bind the things you fight.


Personally I don't think that it would slow down the game. When I play tested it all it took was about ten seconds of time amounting to:
Player:I make a binding circle and summon a Lemure using Summon Monster I
Me:: Okay its summoned and trapped in the circle.
Player: I try to bind it to make it protect me.
Me:: Okay roll a binding check.
Player: *Roll a good enough*
Me:: You implant the idea of protection in the creatures mind and it now shall protect you for the rest of today.

That only works for summoned monsters, and if that's all you want you may as well just make a summoner.

[Milo v3]

There's a lot to review in this entry, given that you're actually creating a whole new subsystem, not merely a new class. In particular, you have a whole lot of very specific rules to look through, with no general guidelines; a new spell list (albeit a small one); a set of class features
It is more a completely new system of enchanting, empowering characters, etc. than merely a class.... Maybe I should change the title.



Sometimes you refer to souls, and sometimes to creatures; it is not clear whether these should be the same term

That should say bound creature. Sorry about that. I must've missed it while I was updating the class. Will try to fix as soon as possible.



Your systemic overuse of apostrophe's [sic] is somewhat annoying :smalltongue:

Sorry. I'm not the best at grammer. Will fix.



With reference to the title of the thread, not everyone is aware of Solomon's mythical abilities to command supernatural beings; certainly that is not what I first think of about him

The idea for this class came from Solomon and his demon controlling magic, so his name came to mind when think of a name for the thread.



Yes, D&D Wiki has a fairly bad reputation around here, although I don't think it's insurmountable; it might honestly be better to repost in a series of threads here and just cross-link them

So you think I should create several threads each one having a seperate section of the system and then post links to them in a singular thread along with the class....


Regarding pact binding (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pact_Binding_%28Keran_Supplement%29):
It's unclear to me what happens if a pact-bound creature fails a task irrevocably without dying; is it immediately freed? punished? forced to allow you to bind another pact?
The definition of "difficulty" should probably be expanded upon


I'd add to it.


It says they can bind monsters summoned by summon monster regardless of hit dice.
A flaw of my bad wording. I wanted it to that it is regardless of hit dice for determining whether or not they are acceptable for binding. Not if they are subject to the HD limit.


What I mean is that trying to base a classes power around other monsters doesn't work. HD and CR are terrible approximations for power.
That is how the game works though. So thats what I'm using.


Then perhaps you see why I'm concerned about making the primary class feature "make monsters into minions."
You do realise that is already in the game. Dominate Monster, Summon Monster I - IV, Summon Undead I- IV, Command Undead, Control Undead, Powerful Rebuking by a cleric, the list goes on.


Because feat selection and actually finding an effective creature that you can get to a specific location are pretty damn hard to do? Not every fight is going to be "The monsters come to your location;" any time you are on the offensive, you can't bind the things you fight.
The binding circles are traps. I based it on Myths. It would be overpowered if they could be used whenever you want. I'll think about shortening the time needed to make one though as your point does have merit.


That only works for summoned monsters, and if that's all you want you may as well just make a summoner.
This classes effects are amazingly different from summoner. This class has new ways for creating golems and items and can effectively enchant people. I'm pretty sure those aren't part of a summoners features.

[TuggyNE]

It is more a completely new system of enchanting, empowering characters, etc. than merely a class.... Maybe I should change the title.

[...]

So you think I should create several threads each one having a seperate section of the system and then post links to them in a singular thread along with the class....

Yes; given the scope of this project, giving people a more granular way to comment on them is highly desirable. I also suggest putting a common keyword in each of the thread titles. So the result might be e.g. "New Subsystem: Binder Potential Deeds [3.5, WIP, PEACH]".


You do realise that is already in the game. Dominate Monster, Summon Monster I - IV, Summon Undead I- IV, Command Undead, Control Undead, Powerful Rebuking by a cleric, the list goes on.

Many of the existing mechanisms (Gate, [Lesser] Planar Binding) are considered imbalanced for precisely this reason. Now, if you're able to balance the granted abilities in enough detail and with enough care, you can probably avoid a lot of that, and actually end up making progress balance-wise; however, it's an awful lot of work. (Seriously, this is a very large project.)

One thing you might consider is trying to recruit someone to collaborate with you directly, in order to keep things rolling more smoothly.

[Milo v3]

I have followed your advice.

The project thread and a few of the sections are up.
Here it is the main thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234102)

[Merchant]

Oh thank goodness. I've killing myself trying to think of binding based character for a long time. I came across Solomon along the way since I was focusing on djinns at the time.

I came across a manga Magi in the process that was a world based on the 1001 tales. It has some character names that people might know. But mainly Djinns are the most powerful creatures in the world. They can be summoned by 'Magi' (though there are only two presently) and certain individuals that defeated a 'dungeun' usually aquired djinns. These ones couldn't be summoned by their power could be pulled out from the item in which they were possessing. It was called Djinn Equip and if the user was strong enough it could from armour as well. One last reference to this manga: The power could be restored/item reconstructed through the type of djinn it was. Fire to repair a sword that a fire type djinn resided in.

Anywho, love the class and all the work that you are putting into it. Among all the creatures bound to him, he was quite the ladies man. Might think of some social skills bonuses as well. He should be rather eloquent right? Roleplaying wise I think a conversation between the binder and the summoned creature is pretty cool.

[Milo v3]

Oh thank goodness. I've killing myself trying to think of binding based character for a long time. I came across Solomon along the way since I was focusing on djinns at the time.

I came across a manga Magi in the process that was a world based on the 1001 tales. It has some character names that people might know. But mainly Djinns are the most powerful creatures in the world. They can be summoned by 'Magi' (though there are only two presently) and certain individuals that defeated a 'dungeun' usually aquired djinns. These ones couldn't be summoned by their power could be pulled out from the item in which they were possessing. It was called Djinn Equip and if the user was strong enough it could from armour as well. One last reference to this manga: The power could be restored/item reconstructed through the type of djinn it was. Fire to repair a sword that a fire type djinn resided in.

Anywho, love the class and all the work that you are putting into it. Among all the creatures bound to him, he was quite the ladies man. Might think of some social skills bonuses as well. He should be rather eloquent right? Roleplaying wise I think a conversation between the binder and the summoned creature is pretty cool.

Strangely I've never heard of that manga. I think I'll look into it though. May give me some more ideas for this class.