What's the best system of attributes?

[Baalthazaq]

So, I've been working on my own game system for a while now, and I want to overhaul the attributes.

I've been looking at tons of different systems, and I basically want something that really captures everything necessary, but don't want to have hundreds of stats to do it.

The system is robust enough to handle any given attributes. You can have 100, you can have 1 so really any suggestions are welcome.

Alternatively, some guiding principles might be good, like WoD's Power/Finesse/Resistance by Physical/Mental/Social, but I feel like I'd prefer a better classification. I also like L5R's spread, and classifications.

The system I'm using right now is somewhat unwieldy mix of 12 stats and I'd like to improve or replace it.

[Yitzi]

I think you'd better define "best".

[DoomHat]

Depends on what you want your system to do exactly.
It seems to me you haven't yet traveled far enough down the rabbit hole my young Padawan. Read enough design journals, download enough obscure system PDFs, listen to enough podcasts, and you will soon come to realized it doesn't ultimately matter.

The most important thing you need to understand is that game design is mind control. (http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?p=874)

There is no one perfect attribute array because each game needs a different one. This is because (ideally) each system is meant to tell a different kind of story.

For example, Tunnels & Trolls, among the first and most successful D&D clones has a nearly identical stat array to D&D, with one major exception.
They removed Wisdom. Why? Because, "What the hell does an adventure need with Wisdom?".
They replaced it with Luck!

What you name things has an effect on the psychology of your players. Your attribute/skill list should give them an immediate understanding of the sort of things this game is about.

Tunnels and Trolls makes it clear out of the gate that it is a game about recklessly endangering your life for fun and profit. In this game, the question of whether or not you are Wise is irreverent (because you are an adventurer, and thus, clearly aren't). The question is, are you Lucky?

Figure out what the focus of your game is.
Is it combat? Then most of your stats are going to be combat related, with maybe one or two stats to cover things that are NOT combat.
Example: ([Speed], [Accuracy], [Might], [Reflexes], [Smarts])

Is your game about Courtly Intrigue? Well then the inverse is true, as your players will spend little time jumping around beating things up, you'll need mostly skulduggery and maybe one stat for physicality.
Example: ([Knowledge], [Awareness], [Cunning], [Passion], [Grace], [Athletics])

You don't even need to limit yourself to personal qualities. A lot of games have attributes that embody the sort of narrative themes a character is meant to excel at.
So instead of being boring and going with something like:
[Strength], [Intelligence], [Charisma], [Dexterity]

You could have:
[Violence], [Discovery], [Romance], [Intrigue]

[Baalthazaq]

Yeah I was worried about the "I need more information" questions.

Honestly I didn't want to give too much away, just because I didn't want to influence the answers. I don't like what I've currently got in place and I wanted a new perspective.

Saying "I want X, Y, and Z for A, B, and C" might restrain things to the point where we just end up back at what I've got.

It's not geared around fantasy adventurers. Right now my playtesting group is playing it as a Superhero adventure (X-men setting, remove X-men, replace with PCs), and that worked pretty well. We also tried it with a Fallout setting playing vault dwellers. We've also tried it in a Zombie apocalypse setting playing survivors in a still overpopulated world.

It's not combat heavy. Even in the Zombie apocalypse, the heavy population meant you're doing things like bartering or scavenging for resources rather than just Zombie crunching. In X-men you're hiding your powers. Etc.


I think you'd better define "best".
Think of this as more "What's your favourite", or "What do you wish they'd do", or "What do you like/dislike about current systems".

For example "I like WoD because it's one of the few giving them a proper structure". "I like D&D because it's a classic". "I like X because it covers everything in just 3 stats". "I like Y because it has all 370 attributes letting you be more detailed".


You will soon come to realize it doesn't ultimately matter.
Oh, I know that. Gameplay wise it already works (and it works no matter what you call the stats or how many there are), but I just don't like them. They're not as intuitive as they could be.


You could have:
[Violence], [Discovery], [Romance], [Intrigue]

Hmmm... that's a route I hadn't considered. It's honestly not the kind of system I'd like personally, but the whole point of this thread is to come up with something I wouldn't myself. So I'll see what I can build using that method...

[Yitzi]

just because I didn't want to influence the answers.

That's a reason not to give what you have in place, but you still need to give your basic goals.


It's not geared around fantasy adventurers. Right now my playtesting group is playing it as a Superhero adventure (X-men setting, remove X-men, replace with PCs), and that worked pretty well. We also tried it with a Fallout setting playing vault dwellers. We've also tried it in a Zombie apocalypse setting playing survivors in a still overpopulated world.

It's not combat heavy. Even in the Zombie apocalypse, the heavy population meant you're doing things like bartering or scavenging for resources rather than just Zombie crunching. In X-men you're hiding your powers. Etc.

Sounds like you might want to use a variant of the D&D system. I'd say your 9 ability scores should be:
-Strength. Works just like in D&D.
-Dexterity. Used for "fine motor" abilities, possibly including making things.
-Agility. Used for more overall mobility abilities (e.g. in D&D this would be used instead of DEX for bonus to AC, and for Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Ride, and Tumble, as well as for prerequisites for feats such as Dodge (but not for feats like TWF).)
-Constitution. Used for durability and toughness.
-Intelligence. Used for book smarts (knowledge, skill point acquisition if you use that, any powers that are learned).
-Perception. Used for senses (avoiding being fooled would probably use a mix of Perception and Cunning), and initiative if you have an initiative mechanic.
-Willpower. Used for concentration, throwing off any supernatural effects that can be resisted, and any inborn supernatural effects of your own (e.g. powers for an X-men game.)
-Cunning. Used wherever trickery, or resisting it, is involved.
-Diplomacy. Used for friendly interactions with others. If the game involves any method of appealing to higher powers (like clerics in D&D), this is the main stat for that too.

[Baalthazaq]

That's a reason not to give what you have in place, but you still need to give your basic goals.

Possibly true. There was always the possibility however that someone else might have more appropriate goals too. Reevaluating what I want out of the system could totally be part of looking at it.

Though you're right in that I was overly paranoid in biasing opinions.

[Maraxus1]

Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Constitution, Intelligence, Willpower, Intuition, Charisma.

Much like what Yitzi said but I like cunning and perception bundled as one (Intuition) and Diplomacy is a skill you can learn, natural charisma is the inborn attribute to it.

To this, you add, what fits your system/world:
Magic, Magic Resistance, Essence, Soul, Whatever...

Also, depending on the system (if you use ability scores as dice pools for example and your skills are bonuses and you can't quite decide which attribute should be used with a silver smithing skill, because you need brawns, brains and nimble fingers for it), there might be secondary attributes like Melee, Dodging, Athletics, Manual Crafts, Fine Crafts, etc.
Those are to dependant on the primary ability scores and should be calculated from them ( Melee = (Str+Agi) /2; Dodge = (2xAgi+Intu) /3; Charm Resistance = (Magic Resistence + Willpower) /2; ......).

[Draz74]

Old School Hack uses an interesting array. They stick to the traditional number (6), but their stated goal is for all attributes to be more or less equal in value to all adventurers regardless of class (rather than e.g. Wizard <=> Intelligence).

So they go with

Brawn (pure physical)
Daring (physical/spiritual; used for any sort of acrobatic stunts)
Conviction (pure spiritual; used for most defensive "saving throw" types of checks)
Awareness (spiritual/social)
Charm (pure social)
Cunning (physical/social; used for stealthy activities)

[Xefas]

In a Wicked Age has the best attributes; no contest.
-Directly
-Covertly
-For Myself
-For Others
-With Love
-With Violence

[Knaight]

Attributes vary fairly highly. As such, I'm going to present two systems that are a bit different, which should hopefully provide some level of inspiration.

WR&M: The attributes are Warrior, Rogue, and Mage (or Scholar, in low magic games).

Qin: The attributes are the five Chinese elements: Fire (Social), Water (Mental), Wood (Physical), Metal (Martial), and Earth (Mystical).

[Idhan]

Overall, I think the basic D&D or Fallout SPECIAL systems are fine, except for D&D I'd like to split wisdom into perception and willpower, and for SPECIAL I'd get rid of luck and add willpower.

One system that I think went awry -- perhaps examples of poor systems might be illustrative -- is the new Storytelling system. It's very clear where it went wrong, in my view: they set up a matrix. For the first column, the wrote "mental" at the top. For the second, they wrote "physical," and for the third they wrote "social." For the first row, they wrote "power," for the second, the wrote "finesse," and for the third, they wrote "resistance." I.e.

|Mental|Physical|Social

Power|Intelligence|Strength|Presence

Finesse|Wits|Dexterity|Manipulation

Resistance|Resolve|Stamina|Composure


The result is a system which is, in some ways, elegant, but is also, in some ways, confusing. In particular, in the effort to create a consistent matrix, the replacement of "courage" and "self-control" with "resolve" and "composure" makes the system less sensible, no matter how consistent it is. I can imagine a "high courage, low self-control" character. Think Achilles, for instance. A high composure, low resolve character? I'm not sure.

Another system I'm not a fan of: GURPS. Four stats, the strength/dexterity/constitution trio plus just intelligence? I know, you can do anything with merit and flaw-type features: rather than charisma, you take a "smooth talker" type merit. Still, at that point, why have stats at all? Why not just say that there are no stats, just merits and flaws, and have a strong character take the "strong" merit, and have a smart character take a "smart" merit?

[Knaight]

A high composure, low resolve character? I'm not sure.

That's actually really easy to picture. The capacity to drive yourself to do something (discipline, resolve), and the capacity to prevent other people from acting on you or influencing your mental state (composure) really aren't that related. I know people far better at one than the other - for that matter, I am one of those people - and it isn't as if these people are part of some group of oddities.

[Draz74]

A high composure, low resolve character? I'm not sure.
Sounds like a shy but very even-tempered person.


Why not just say that there are no stats, just merits and flaws, and have a strong character take the "strong" merit, and have a smart character take a "smart" merit?

That's actually basically what I concluded in my own system after playing around with lots of different possible sets of ability scores for months. I couldn't find any set that felt balanced, felt important enough to be worth the space it was printed on, and made sense under scrutiny. Until I just tried dropping ability scores and letting the characters' other skills and statistics fill in for them.

"Why have a separate stat, Constitution, for how tough and healthy a character is, when that's already what their Fortitude Save represents?" Etc.

So now I just use 4 saves, 10 skills, and two catch-all stats. Oh, and something kind of like a caster level check. Pretty much any d20 the characters ever roll is one of those 17 stats, and I feel like they (and a synergy bonus system) obviate the need to ever have Ability Scores in the system.

[Baalthazaq]

The result is a system which is, in some ways, elegant, but is also, in some ways, confusing. In particular, in the effort to create a consistent matrix, the replacement of "courage" and "self-control" with "resolve" and "composure" makes the system less sensible, no matter how consistent it is. I can imagine a "high courage, low self-control" character. Think Achilles, for instance. A high composure, low resolve character? I'm not sure.

I think you're getting too hung up on what you think the words mean. It's usually hard to express exactly what an attribute represents in a word.

Take Wisdom in D&D. You could interpret that as "Knowledge", but clearly not in D&D (it doesn't even impact the knowledge skills). Wisdom is not your 5 senses either (As pointed out by the giant, as you age in D&D your "senses" get better).

Calling it "insight" might be better, as it's not only perception, but your ability to understand what you're perceiving. Someone in their 30th year of adventuring can just tell when something feels like an ambush. (Spot/Listen)

Does "Wisdom" cover that? Yes actually. It's a reasonable usage of the word.
Does saying "Wisdom" to someone quickly convey the message of what the stat represents? Not really...

Same with composure/resolve. Figure out what they are by looking at how they work rather than forcing an exact dictionary definition on something already described by the system.

High Composure, Low Resolve: A Gambler. Poker faced addict who never shows a tell, and has no will to stop playing. The glib rogue who won't let on he has lost the upper hand but will run at the first sign of trouble.

Low Composure, High Resolve: The Avenger. Miko Miyazaki (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Miko_Miyazaki) for one. Won't keep her cool, but will be unswerving towards her goal.


In a Wicked Age has the best attributes; no contest.
-Directly
-Covertly
-For Myself
-For Others
-With Love
-With Violence

V. Interesting.
I assume all actions are governed by a combination of 3?
"I smack the goblin" being "Directly for others with violence"? (Or would that be "for myself" if acting in self interest).

It's making me wonder how much I'm being swayed by "ooh interesting" rather than "this works best".

[Baalthazaq]

The result is a system which is, in some ways, elegant, but is also, in some ways, confusing. In particular, in the effort to create a consistent matrix, the replacement of "courage" and "self-control" with "resolve" and "composure" makes the system less sensible, no matter how consistent it is. I can imagine a "high courage, low self-control" character. Think Achilles, for instance. A high composure, low resolve character? I'm not sure.

I think you're getting too hung up on what you think the words mean. It's usually hard to express exactly what an attribute represents in a word.

Take Wisdom in D&D. You could interpret that as "Knowledge", but clearly not in D&D (it doesn't even impact the knowledge skills). Wisdom is not your 5 senses either (As pointed out by the giant, as you age in D&D your "senses" get better).

Calling it "insight" might be better, as it's not only perception, but your ability to understand what you're perceiving. Someone in their 30th year of adventuring can just tell when something feels like an ambush. (Spot/Listen)

Does "Wisdom" cover that? Yes actually. It's a reasonable usage of the word.
Does saying "Wisdom" to someone quickly convey the message of what the stat represents? Not really...

Same with composure/resolve. Figure out what they are by looking at how they work rather than forcing an exact dictionary definition on something already described by the system.

High Composure, Low Resolve: A Gambler. Poker faced addict who never shows a tell, and has no will to stop playing. The glib rogue who won't let on he has lost the upper hand but will run at the first sign of trouble.

Low Composure, High Resolve: The Avenger. Miko Miyazaki (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Miko_Miyazaki) for one. Won't keep her cool, but will be unswerving towards her goal.


In a Wicked Age has the best attributes; no contest.
-Directly
-Covertly
-For Myself
-For Others
-With Love
-With Violence

V. Interesting.
I assume all actions are governed by a combination of 3?
"I smack the goblin" being "Directly for others with violence"? (Or would that be "for myself" if acting in self interest).

It's making me wonder how much I'm being swayed by "ooh interesting" rather than "this works best".

[Cruxador]

For my rules-light, I use Might, Magic, and Moxie. Might is for fighting and being physical. Moxie is for being sneaky and tricksy. Magic is for doing magical stuff, and interacting with things that are magical.

My heavier system has things subdivided into three groups as follows

SOCIAL
Charisma
Force of personality, attractiveness
Wits
includes Manipulation
Resolve

PHYSICAL (all these as per D&D, essentially)
Strength
Dexterity
Constitution

MAGIC
Intelligence
Used for research and the creation of items. It determines hand size (the number of spells you can have available at once).
Gnosis
Gnosis represents a person's understanding of the inherent workings of the world. A character cannot cast magic with a dot rating greater than intelligence.
Channeling
unity with reality and the energies that make it up, determines mana.

I also have pools of confidence, health, and mana that are derived from these stats

[DoomHat]

V. Interesting.
I assume all actions are governed by a combination of 3?
"I smack the goblin" being "Directly for others with violence"? (Or would that be "for myself" if acting in self interest).

It's making me wonder how much I'm being swayed by "ooh interesting" rather than "this works best".

As I recall, its a combination of two. It uses a dice array like Cortex.

As to the Best Array

To my mind the best Core Attributes systems are Integrally linked with the mechanics of the game.
Meaning:
1. Each are strictly necessity to every character regardless of build. (a dump stat will always hurt)
2. They fulfill the specific focus of the game's core concept.

7th sea is a fine example.
Each of the five traits serves an essential function in the game's focus (swashbuckling combat).
The Panache trait serves a function unique to the mechanics of the game.
To a lesser degree the same is true of the Brawnand Resolve traits.
The game's spendable resource mechanic is tied to whichever trait is lowest, thus punishing min-maxing.

But I wouldn't recommend it for your needs, because it's a great set for swashbuckling, and more over, 7th Sea specifically.

Another Attribute Array I like is in Legends of the Wulin.
It doesn't technically have one. Instead it has a set of non-combat skills that are bought individually with EXP. and prepackaged sets of Six Combat skills that come with Kung-Fu styles.
You can only use one style at a time, and each style has specific options for increasing its own array in specific ways.

This, I think, is a really excellent way to build a Kung-Fu game, but not what you are looking for.


Reverse Engineering Your Game
So, you've told us you want a system that can run X-Men, Fallout, and Zombie Survival.
Okay.

So all of these things have the common theme of desperation, so I'll assume that's what your Game System is about.

So in a game about desperation, one thing every character will Need is Hope.
Without Hope, there's no reason to explore the wasteland, no reason not to just blow your brains out before the zombies make you one of them, no reason not to just join Magneto's Brotherhood and show the humans who's boss.

Another thing you might need is Metabolism.
In the two more apocalyptic games, this can be incredibly important. Characters with a high Metabolism would be more physically active and resistant to sickness, but consume precious rations faster.

If you want to have an interesting internal conflict between self-interest and altruism (a recurring theme in all three), you could have Compassion and Contempt stats.
Maybe you can only have one or the other and the players actions push the balance back and forth.
Or maybe for each positive or negative tie they have to other characters and the setting they get a point in one or the other.
But its important they they both DO something mechanically, to incentivise players to give a damn.

Just some ideas.

[BarroomBard]

Bravo, DoomHat.

I second the 7th Sea reference. What makes it especially apt is how the stats work together. Each stat does it's own thing, but is also valuable in combat. Panache is like your charisma, but it's also your initiative, for example.

---

Personally, my vote for best attribute systems is either Song of Ice and Fire RPG, or Trollbabe.

Trollbabe's stats are very simple. You have one number. If you roll above this number, you succeed on magic tasks. If you roll below this number, you succeed on martial tasks. Your social skill is equal to the lower of the two (i.e., a well rounded character is better at interacting with people).

SIFRP, on the other hand, is like Legends of Wulin, which DoomHat mentioned. Rather than having stats and skills, it has about 18 skills that include things which are normally skills (like Animal Handling and Healing) as well as things that are often stats (like Cunning and Status).