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hamishspence
2012-02-28, 04:08 PM
Thread for the discussion of the Jedi Order from the prequel movies (and novels/comics set around this period).

Thoughts?

I do think that Lucas introducing a "Jedi never get married unless an exception has specifically been made" rule, from around Episode II, seems a bit out of keeping with previous portrayals.

It might have enabled Anakin's relationship to have become "forbidden"- but as a result it kind of messes with novels like Rogue Planet where a Jedi mentions that she's been married, and has many children- and therefore knows a bit more about Anakin's issues than Yoda does.

(Their insisting on taking only infants (episode I) and their willingness to lead the clone army (Episode II) are also ethically problematic).

Omergideon
2012-02-28, 04:12 PM
I won't address the other issues for now, but I will the marriage one.

It may cause some issues with the EU, but I tend to think Lucas can happily ignore elements of it if he so chooses. But I like how it adds to the "monk" aesthetic of the Jedi Order. As a monk-like group it is a common theme for them to not have marriages in their lives, whether eastern or western in origin. So I think it is thematically appropriate for the Jedi Order. Even if it is not the smartest choice of lifestyle.

hamishspence
2012-02-28, 04:28 PM
It may fit with "A Jedi must have the deepest commitment. The most serious mind".

Still, the RoTJ novel didn't make much of Anakin's marriage. Then again, there were no hints that she'd died in childbirth, either. Quite the reverse:


"Leia ... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?"

The question took her totally by surprise. She'd always felt so close to her adopted parents, it was as if they were her real parents. She almost never thought of her real mother - that was like a dream.

Yet now Luke's question made her start. Flashes from her infancy assaulted her - distorted visions of running ... a beautiful woman ... hiding in a trunk. The fragments suddenly threatened to flood her with emotion.

"Yes," she said, pausing to regain her composure. "Just a little bit. She died when I was very young."

Devonix
2012-02-28, 08:06 PM
I personally rather ignore the Lucas stuff and my personal Canon is the Original movies Bioware games and EU novels. Everything else is stuff I ignore.

I know plenty of fans who do the same.

Tiki Snakes
2012-02-28, 08:34 PM
I dislike the no-marriage clause specifically for the reason Omergideon likes it, actually. It makes them feel too much like Monks and less like, well, Jedi.

The thing with sticking to training children at least has precedent, with Yoda refusing to teach Luke initially and giving age as the excuse.

Devonix
2012-02-28, 09:02 PM
I won't address the other issues for now, but I will the marriage one.

It may cause some issues with the EU, but I tend to think Lucas can happily ignore elements of it if he so chooses. But I like how it adds to the "monk" aesthetic of the Jedi Order. As a monk-like group it is a common theme for them to not have marriages in their lives, whether eastern or western in origin. So I think it is thematically appropriate for the Jedi Order. Even if it is not the smartest choice of lifestyle.

The thing is they are Jedi Knights not Monks

Monks don't get married for one very importaint reason They are hide bound groups that stay in monestaries and work on gathering knowledge and such.

The Jedi are a group of warrior philosophers that travel the galaxy righting wrongs and such. They're nothing like a monk-like group.

Devonix
2012-02-28, 09:08 PM
I won't address the other issues for now, but I will the marriage one.

It may cause some issues with the EU, but I tend to think Lucas can happily ignore elements of it if he so chooses. But I like how it adds to the "monk" aesthetic of the Jedi Order. As a monk-like group it is a common theme for them to not have marriages in their lives, whether eastern or western in origin. So I think it is thematically appropriate for the Jedi Order. Even if it is not the smartest choice of lifestyle.

The thing is they are Jedi Knights not Monks

Monks don't get married for one very importaint reason They are hide bound groups that stay in monestaries and work on gathering knowledge and such.

The Jedi are a group of warrior philosophers that travel the galaxy righting wrongs and such. They're nothing like a monk-like group.

The fact that the jedi are warriors and that strength in the force can flow through a family line is MORE of a reason for them to have families to carry on a jedi tradition not less of one. The same way Knighthood is carried through a family. Its even implied in the original trillogy that this was something that was usually done before Lucas changed it in the prequels. And do not doubt that the whole Jedi marrying thing was something Made up for the prequels They admitted that it was a new development to add tension to the romance.

Just up and adding things that weren't there before was one of people's biggest problems with the prequels even though its something that was done in the original trillogy, such as Vader being changed to be Luke's father in Empire even though Anakin and Vader were two seperate characters in A New Hope.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 03:07 AM
I hate the Prequel era Jedi. They are both monsters, emotionally disconnected and dumb.

I generally hate the prequel force as well.

Before, the force was INCLUSIVE. Everybody had it. Anybody could be a jedi.

Now its "If you have a high enough MK count you can join the order, and if you do your not allowed to care about any of your family".

Its also a force of evil. "Unless you devote your life to us- and ONLY to us, then you go insane and murder everybody".

Because If the jedi where TRULY disconnected then Obi wan wouldn't bat an eye at his masters death.

I also hate the "Babies only" rule. I wonder what idiot parents sign thier kids up for that:

"Sign your infant child to the order, where they will play with dangerous lazer sticks, loose all connection to you (They wont even know or care about your name) and participate in dangerously stupid combat".

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 03:46 AM
Because If the jedi where TRULY disconnected then Obi wan wouldn't bat an eye at his masters death.


Obi-wan was only a padawan at the time, so he doesn't have full control. :smalltongue:

In addition, the total detachment aspect is an ideal that Jedi strive to achieve. Like any ideal, people do fail to keep to it but what makes them a good jedi, is the willingness to atone and try again to keep it.



I also hate the "Babies only" rule. I wonder what idiot parents sign thier kids up for that:

"Sign your infant child to the order, where they will play with dangerous lazer sticks, loose all connection to you (They wont even know or care about your name) and participate in dangerously stupid combat".

How about orphans or children that are in such poor conditions that the chance of becoming a well respected (and possibly short lived) jedi is an improvement?

Take Anakin - he's the son of a slave woman. What sort of life do you think he'd have on Tattoine? Bear in mind the depiction you saw in Episode 1 was the PG rated version - if one of Watto's customers took a liking to young Ani, I'm sure he would have rented him out in a heartbeat.
In addition, a more realistic reason for his apparent immaculate conception would be Shmi was raped (or rented again) and she blocked out the traumatic memories, preferring to believe she mysteriously became pregnant than remember the experience.

In any case, age for tuition is a concern as others have said. When you're young, your perception of the world is malleable, and this flexibility is probably required to teach about the Force from the Jedi perspective (discipline, control and detachment).

Omergideon
2012-02-29, 03:58 AM
Its also a force of evil. "Unless you devote your life to us- and ONLY to us, then you go insane and murder everybody".


Just to mention this one, it is a bit of a misnomer. I mean Dooku was able to leave the Jedi Order, and Anakin was seriously considered to be refused entry without any doubts as to their moral goodness being cast. Granted one could argue with Dooku they refused to belive a former Jedi capable of turning to evil, but they seemed not to worry about Anakin becoming a crazy force murderer if he was not accepted to the order.

Not that there are not problems with the order in the PT, something that was intentional from everything I hear.


And the Force, whilst including all things in it scope, is not universal in the sense that everyone could be a Jedi. The EU and even ESB make it clear that it takes some serious juice to become a proper Jedi of any real power. The limiting of Jedi abilities to a small number has been a thing for donkeys years.



As for marriage, well I do still stand by it. The nearest comparisons to the Jedi Knights in every version I have seen are either the old Knightly orders of the Middle Ages, or a monastic group. In fact Warrior Monks has always been the defauly description of a Jedi in every media I have seen, which is exactly what the medievil knightly orders were. The visual aesthetic of a monk was invoked by the Desert Dwelling Obi-Wan, the Jedi Academy series placement in a Temple and they mystic focus also invokes Middle Eastern Warrior Monks as well. I always got the feel for them more as Shaolin types than anything else, but the western version also works.

And yes the lack of marriages thing was a bad choice for the Order itself. I cannot deny this. But it does fit in thematically with the main imagery and phrasology invoked by the order. I repeat even the Knightly Orders connection suggests celibacy or the like as that was a very common vow for them to take as far as my reading suggests. At least for the Templars, Hospitallers and Teutonic knights, the 3 more famous orders.



So yeah, the Jedi Knights were the Republic's knightly order of Warrior Monks.

Devonix
2012-02-29, 04:52 AM
Obi-wan was only a padawan at the time, so he doesn't have full control. :smalltongue:

In addition, the total detachment aspect is an ideal that Jedi strive to achieve. Like any ideal, people do fail to keep to it but what makes them a good jedi, is the willingness to atone and try again to keep it.



How about orphans or children that are in such poor conditions that the chance of becoming a well respected (and possibly short lived) jedi is an improvement?

Take Anakin - he's the son of a slave woman. What sort of life do you think he'd have on Tattoine? Bear in mind the depiction you saw in Episode 1 was the PG rated version - if one of Watto's customers took a liking to young Ani, I'm sure he would have rented him out in a heartbeat.
In addition, a more realistic reason for his apparent immaculate conception would be Shmi was raped (or rented again) and she blocked out the traumatic memories, preferring to believe she mysteriously became pregnant than remember the experience.

In any case, age for tuition is a concern as others have said. When you're young, your perception of the world is malleable, and this flexibility is probably required to teach about the Force from the Jedi perspective (discipline, control and detachment).

I understand the whole train em young thing since force sensitivity is a thing which begins young and training someone to alter their perceptions is more difficult than training someone to use those different perceptions from an early age. It is actually even more of a reason to encourage Jedi to have children as you know more often than not that those kids will be jedi and can be brought up in a safe environment and molded into the order just like it is done in the EU.

Also the thing with Anakin was most often than not super rare How likely would it be that even a third of the jedi at the academy were orphans. Most of them probably came to the Prequel era jedi in the way Ninja Style Robot mentioned

Jedi as described by Lucas in the OT were more like Samurai in movies than the monks they became in the Prequels. How many times did Lucas used to mention Samurai movies when talking about the old trilogy

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 05:44 AM
Also the thing with Anakin was most often than not super rare How likely would it be that even a third of the jedi at the academy were orphans. Most of them probably came to the Prequel era jedi in the way Ninja Style Robot mentioned


I didn't say orphans were the only way for children to be entered into the Jedi Order, but I was refuting NinjaStylerobot's claim of 'stupid parents'. The Jedi are well respected and are well known to look after their foundlings.

For any parents who are unable to offer their children a better life, giving them up to the Jedi is a step up.



Jedi as described by Lucas in the OT were more like Samurai in movies than the monks they became in the Prequels. How many times did Lucas used to mention Samurai movies when talking about the old trilogy

I suspect that's more like Lucas having a biased view of samurai from their movie depictions. The most famous movie depictions of samurai back then were ronin, something significantly different.

While samurai do have a zen element to them, their focus is duty to their lord, while a monk's focus is balance (and in popular fiction, upholding justice).

Given the Jedi order's responsibility of upholding the Republic, Omergideon's comment of the Jedi being similar to the old chivalric orders (or at least the idealised version of them), albeit with a more Eastern flavour, is very apt.

However, I'd class them more as sohei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sohei), rather than Shaolin, which stays with the samurai comments made by Lucas.

Devonix
2012-02-29, 08:02 AM
Obi-wan was only a padawan at the time, so he doesn't have full control. :smalltongue:

In addition, the total detachment aspect is an ideal that Jedi strive to achieve. Like any ideal, people do fail to keep to it but what makes them a good jedi, is the willingness to atone and try again to keep it.



How about orphans or children that are in such poor conditions that the chance of becoming a well respected (and possibly short lived) jedi is an improvement?

Take Anakin - he's the son of a slave woman. What sort of life do you think he'd have on Tattoine? Bear in mind the depiction you saw in Episode 1 was the PG rated version - if one of Watto's customers took a liking to young Ani, I'm sure he would have rented him out in a heartbeat.
In addition, a more realistic reason for his apparent immaculate conception would be Shmi was raped (or rented again) and she blocked out the traumatic memories, preferring to believe she mysteriously became pregnant than remember the experience.

In any case, age for tuition is a concern as others have said. When you're young, your perception of the world is malleable, and this flexibility is probably required to teach about the Force from the Jedi perspective (discipline, control and detachment).

I understand the whole train em young thing since force sensitivity is a thing which begins young and training someone to alter their perceptions is more difficult than training someone to use those different perceptions from an early age. It is actually even more of a reason to encourage Jedi to have children as you know more often than not that those kids will be jedi and can be brought up in a safe environment and molded into the order just like it is done in the EU.

Also the thing with Anakin was most often than not super rare How likely would it be that even a third of the jedi at the academy were orphans. Most of them probably came to the Prequel era jedi in the way Ninja Style Robot mentioned

Jedi as described by Lucas in the OT were more like Samurai in movies than the monks they became in the Prequels. How many times did Lucas used to mention Samurai movies when talking about the old trilogy

Devonix
2012-02-29, 08:06 AM
I didn't say orphans were the only way for children to be entered into the Jedi Order, but I was refuting NinjaStylerobot's claim of 'stupid parents'. The Jedi are well respected and are well known to look after their foundlings.

For any parents who are unable to offer their children a better life, giving them up to the Jedi is a step up.



I suspect that's more like Lucas having a biased view of samurai from their movie depictions. The most famous movie depictions of samurai back then were ronin, something significantly different.

While samurai do have a zen element to them, their focus is duty to their lord, while a monk's focus is balance (and in popular fiction, upholding justice).

Given the Jedi order's responsibility of upholding the Republic, Omergideon's comment of the Jedi being similar to the old chivalric orders (or at least the idealised version of them), albeit with a more Eastern flavour, is very apt.

However, I'd class them more as sohei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sohei), rather than Shaolin, which stays with the samurai comments made by Lucas.


Yes but the way it's shown in the movies isn't really a better life. and they would most likely get orphans. I mean what do they just turn down powerful force sensives because mommy and daddy are still alive? Wouldn't that lead to massive amounts of untrained force sensitives ripe for the picking that the Sith or other organizations could exploit. Or even people living their entire lives possibly misusing the force .

I prefer the way the EU handles the Academy and training. There are smaller temples set up on various planets headed over by a Jedi master. These facilities are set up for force sensetives to be brought in for training enough to handle their abilities properly via them seeking entrance or by the jedi from the temple actively searching out senstives.

If someone has enough potential they are given the opportunity to train to become a jedi at the main temple on Coruscant and if not they are given other opportunites and duties or simply let go once they've trained enough

Since you know being an orphan is a rarity all things considered. and yes I was allways refering to movie samurai as was lucas when he listed his influences as Seven Samurai and other Kurosawa films.

Sotharsyl
2012-02-29, 08:55 AM
The thing is in episodes IV-VI the Jedi were gone,we only saw Obi-Wan and Yoda and they were much more more focused on keeping Luke on the Light Side, and thus more time was alloted to force training then to stories about how the Jedi Order actually conducted bussiness.

So Lucas had pretty much carte blanche in portraying the Order as long as he had them be LS.

And if we're going on names like Knights I must remind you that a Lord is a step up from a Knight and knights should always folow and obey their lords :smallbiggrin:

Devonix
2012-02-29, 09:31 AM
The thing is in episodes IV-VI the Jedi were gone,we only saw Obi-Wan and Yoda and they were much more more focused on keeping Luke on the Light Side, and thus more time was alloted to force training then to stories about how the Jedi Order actually conducted bussiness.

So Lucas had pretty much carte blanche in portraying the Order as long as he had them be LS.

And if we're going on names like Knights I must remind you that a Lord is a step up from a Knight and knights should always folow and obey their lords :smallbiggrin:

Yes but in the years between The OT and PT Lucas oversaw what was going on in the EU and such and never said No thats not what the Jedi are like and would do. So for all those years the Jedi developed into something and then Lucas says No thats not what they are like now.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 12:25 PM
Let me explain:

I hate what the movies have DONE to the Jedi and the force:

(KEEP THE EU OUT OF THIS)

The Jedi:


The Jedi are stupid


They fall into one of the biggest traps.
They train children with lethal weaponry.
They train a dangerous child anyway.


The Jedi are monsters OR incredibly creepy


The reason I say that they demand attention ONLY to themselves.

Truly emotional disconnect would have them just doing nothing in their temple all day.

But their not. Thier idea that having attachments to anything is bad because if you loose that attachement you feel bad is kinda. Insane.

Because otherwise how do you motivate yourself to do anything? Why live a life of nothing. Just not positive or negative.

"Help us jedi, were being slaughtered by octorocks"

"I don't care. If I didn't care that my parents are still slaves on a planet why should I care about you?"

But their not. They get angry, they get sad. They felt distraught at anikin killing children.

They even have friends (Obi wan).

So I come to the conclusion that they just don't want emotional attachments so that the jedi are only loyal to them.

I thought that possibly there could be entire FAMILIES of jedi stretching back generations!

Because otherwise why not allow family bonds?

I mean it. Their monsters


They license an army of brainwashed clones (That are connected to an assassination).
People that have no choice but to go into a war.


The Jedi are not worthy of respect because of the above and more


Drug trade, Slavery, mind controlled slaves. All exist in a world of peace.

If they where respectable I might not have AS much qualms about jedi being baby snatchers.

The force:


The force is quantifiable/Everything is a technique


Making the force a number just ruins its magic

"Dude- I just gained 50 MK!"

"Did you go up a rank yet?"

"Nah, I need 50 more to become a master"


The force is Exclusive


Before the force was this inclusive magical substance. Now its an elitist thing.


The force is evil


Here let me show you

"I am a jedi Demonmancer. I use the force corruption. I have to spend every day in meditation in a non emotional state otherwise it devours my soul makes me go crazy."

You see? How is that a force of good/ neutrality? If this wasn't star wars the force would be a forbidden art!

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 01:14 PM
They fall into one of the biggest traps.
They train children with lethal weaponry.
They train a dangerous child anyway.


I'm having problems following your argument, but let's see what I can understand.

There are a number of fictional (Halo Spartans, 40K Space Marines) and non-fictional (Greek Spartans, certain African militias) armies who recruit their soldiers at a very young age, so the Jedi aren't unique in requiring their members to be young. If anything, they're more responsible since they don't sent their younglings on missions until they're of a certain age, unlike all the aforementioned armies.

With Anakin, there was a large debate where they were judging whether they should train him. Against the better judgement of some of the Council, they decided to do so anyway.



Because otherwise how do you motivate yourself to do anything? Why live a life of nothing. Just not positive or negative.


There are real world religions that encourage this disconnect, which is probably where Lucas got the influence from. For board reasons, I wont go into them.

In addition, a lack of attachment does not equate to apathy, which is the implication you're making here.



"I don't care. If I didn't care that my parents are still slaves on a planet why should I care about you?"

But their not. They get angry, they get sad. They felt distraught at anikin killing children.

They even have friends (Obi wan).

So I come to the conclusion that they just don't want emotional attachments so that the jedi are only loyal to them.


When your powers can be heavily influenced by your emotions, it makes sense to maintain discipline. In addition, strong emotional attachments lead to issues in judgement making.

I'm not saying the Jedi order is correct in grinding out all emotional attachments (I'm with you on this, some emotional attachments are good), but in order to remain impartial, they can't be seen to favour sides, something which is reinforced with their conditioning.



They license an army of brainwashed clones (That are connected to an assassination).
People that have no choice but to go into a war.


One Jedi did this without authorisation from the Council, so it's hardly fair to tar all Jedi with the same brush.



Drug trade, Slavery, mind controlled slaves. All exist in a world of peace.

Because the Republic's reach and power is waning. How is that the exclusive fault of the Jedi? :smallconfused:

As mentioned in the films, the Jedi help police the Republic. They don't have the numbers or strength to be its army.



You see? How is that a force of good/ neutrality? If this wasn't star wars the force would be a forbidden art!

You're not swapping like for like terms with your final example, but if the Jedi are evil, then what does that make the Sith?

Sith and Jedi are two interpretations of a single philosophy, both have been taken to their opposite extremes, giving them both good and bad faults.
Their separate Light Side and Dark Side philosophies just equate to good and evil because Lucas wanted Star Wars morality to be binary. It makes for easier storytelling, but not so good when applying real life problems and situations.

Take the Knights of the Old Republic games, in contrast to the movies. Things are very much more shades of grey there, especially with Kreia in the second one (I know you wanted to stay away from the EU, but with the KotR MMO being the most recent incarnation of the SW universe, it's difficult to ignore).


Let's follow your example and swap gravity for the Force.
It has constructive uses (maintaining life by keeping everything on a planet) and destructive uses (black holes), but gravity itself has no intentions or feeling about how it's used - that's all in the intent of the user.

Now suppose we had people who through some innate ability or quirk of birth, they could manipulate gravity. Is gravity yet evil or good or would it depend on how it was used by these people?

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 01:28 PM
40K Space Marines

:smalleek:

You serious? You camparin jedi to SPACE MARINES?

The grimdark soldiers of pain suffering and complete ****ed up ness?

Well I guess that DOES summarize jedis well.

I also dislike your idea that all jedi are SOLDIERS. Why couldn't there by artasian jedi, dancer jedi. To show that the force is more then blast powers.

So they decide its a bad idea...But **** it it will be funny!


In addition, a lack of attachment does not equate to apathy, which is the implication you're making here.


Empathy is the capacity to recognize and, to some extent, share feelings (such as sadness or happiness)

Unless you connect with these people at least on a minor basis you wouldn't care. Lets say you cared, and they all die. That could ALSO potentially result in poor judgment later.


When your powers can be heavily influenced by your emotions, it makes sense to maintain discipline. In addition, strong emotional attachments lead to issues in judgement making.

Thing is- Hate, anger, and gelousy cannot exist without positive emotions.

If I HAVE no emotions then technically I should have no powers at all.


One Jedi did this without authorisation from the Council, so it's hardly fair to tar all Jedi with the same brush.

Yoda right? That makes it WORSE.

So its YODA that authorized an army of mind controlled suicide slaves.

edit:

Actually STILL no! the jedi CONTINUED to use the clones even after they found out how horrible they are!


Because the Republic's reach and power is waning. How is that the exclusive fault of the Jedi?

As mentioned in the films, the Jedi help police the Republic. They don't have the numbers or strength to be its army.

Why then should I feel bad about them being taken down?

And why didn't they make a robot army?

I mean even in OUR wars we have enough agreement to not use chemical weapons because their evil a hell. The clones are an outright abomination against life.


You're not swapping like for like terms with your final example, but if the Force is evil, then what does that make the Sith?

What I am in my natural state. A guy with emotions.

I would HATE to be a Prequel jedi.

Because the force would twist and transform me. If I have feelings (a natural state) then I go berserk. Therefore its conclusive that:

"Normal guy+ Force= crazy evil guy"

At least thats what I got from the prequels.

So if its that, then the force is evil

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 02:03 PM
You serious? You camparin jedi to SPACE MARINES?
The grimdark soldiers of pain suffering and complete ****ed up ness?
Well I guess that DOES summarize jedis well.


No, I was comparing the recruitment practices of several armies to the Jedi, in order to counter your claim of 'recruiting children = bad'.



I also dislike your idea that all jedi are SOLDIERS. Why couldn't there by artasian jedi, dancer jedi. To show that the force is more then blast powers.

All Jedi are Force users. Not all force users are Jedi.

Jedi have the same duties of government security forces, meaning that all Jedi are warrior monks and hence soldiers to some degree.



Unless you connect with these people at least on a minor basis you wouldn't care. Lets say you cared, and they all die. That could ALSO potentially result in poor judgment later.

I suggest you look into buddism, specifically zen aspects of it for further details. Board prohibitions prevent me from going any further.



Thing is- Hate, anger, and gelousy cannot exist without positive emotions.
If I HAVE no emotions then technically I should have no powers at all.


Er, yes they can. :smallconfused:
Your listed emotions are not defined by the absence of their opposite (light and dark for example) so they can exist without positive emotions.



Yoda right? That makes it WORSE.


Jedi master Sifo-Dyas (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas) according to Wookiepedia, who was murdered 10 years before the Clone army was revealed.
May I suggest you research your points before making a statement?



I mean even in OUR wars we have enough agreement to not use chemical weapons because their evil a hell. The clones are an outright abomination against life.


Applying your own subjective values to judge a situation isn't the best way to have a discussion. Just because you find something unacceptable or distasteful doesn't mean that it's true.

I think your opinion of clones pretty much states your ideology and beliefs fairly well.



Because the force would twist and transform me. If I have feelings (a natural state) then I go berserk. Therefore its conclusive that:
"Normal guy+ Force= crazy evil guy"
At least thats what I got from the prequels.
So if its that, then the force is evil

I think it's more like:

"Force capable guy + uncontrolled use of the Force = crazy evil guy"

Unless you're claiming Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-gon and others are 'crazy evil'.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 02:13 PM
No, I was comparing the recruitment practices of several armies to the Jedi, in order to counter your claim of 'recruiting children = bad'.

Comparing them to horrible armies in grimdark futures. Im not sure what your point is.


All Jedi are Force users. Not all force users are Jedi.

I didn't know that.


Jedi have the same duties of government security forces, meaning that all Jedi are warrior monks and hence soldiers to some degree.

I also didn't know that.

What a shame. So the jedi are simply space knights. What a waste of the force.


I suggest you look into buddism, specifically zen aspects of it for further details. Board prohibitions prevent me from going any further.

Mkay.


Er, yes they can. :smallconfused:

Sorry, I meant Vice versa. You can't feel good if you can't feel bad.



May I suggest you research your points before making a statement?
Chah, Of COURSE most good movies require me to look up what the hell is going based on information that was revealed years later in supplements.

And that didn't stop the jedi from EMPLOYING slave labor and Yoda, the wise- leading the charge.



I think your opinion of clones pretty much states your ideology and beliefs fairly well.

Yes. I do not think that its ethical to mind control people into fighting a war they did not choose to be in.

Thats pretty much it.


"Force capable guy + uncontrolled use of the Force = crazy evil guy"

So why can't I have family? Because it impedes my judgment? That logic makes no sense since ANYTHING could technically impede my judgment.

Forum Explorer
2012-02-29, 02:20 PM
:smalleek:

You serious? You camparin jedi to SPACE MARINES?

The grimdark soldiers of pain suffering and complete ****ed up ness?

Well I guess that DOES summarize jedis well.

I also dislike your idea that all jedi are SOLDIERS. Why couldn't there by artasian jedi, dancer jedi. To show that the force is more then blast powers.

So they decide its a bad idea...But **** it it will be funny!





Unless you connect with these people at least on a minor basis you wouldn't care. Lets say you cared, and they all die. That could ALSO potentially result in poor judgment later.



Thing is- Hate, anger, and gelousy cannot exist without positive emotions.

If I HAVE no emotions then technically I should have no powers at all.



Yoda right? That makes it WORSE.

So its YODA that authorized an army of mind controlled suicide slaves.

edit:

Actually STILL no! the jedi CONTINUED to use the clones even after they found out how horrible they are!



Why then should I feel bad about them being taken down?

And why didn't they make a robot army?

I mean even in OUR wars we have enough agreement to not use chemical weapons because their evil a hell. The clones are an outright abomination against life.



What I am in my natural state. A guy with emotions.

I would HATE to be a Prequel jedi.

Because the force would twist and transform me. If I have feelings (a natural state) then I go berserk. Therefore its conclusive that:

"Normal guy+ Force= crazy evil guy"

At least thats what I got from the prequels.

So if its that, then the force is evil

Jedi aren't like Space Marines in that there is a very good reason for Space Marines to exist and be trained in such harsh conditions.

The idea is to try to eliminate emotions not because the force twists emotions but the reverse. Having less emotions means greater control over your powers. Emotions might cause you to use too much power and hurt people instead. (At least that's my interpretation) The Sith actively push their emotions to greater heights in order to boost their powers. The Jedi order in the Prequels did push this to the extreme though.

Untrained people who are just starting out never tend to make the connection between their powers and the force. Depends on the planet and culture. Those that fully discover the force tend to fall to the Dark Side because they notice that the more emotional they are the stronger their powers.

In the EU (yes I know) they had only a small percentage become jedi knights. The rest who were trained just became ordinary people like farmers since they were too weak or had too little control.

TheThan
2012-02-29, 02:38 PM
On emotional disconnect.

I think the Jedi are afraid that if someone becomes attached to something and then loses that something. They will experience negative emotions, fear, anger hatred etc, all directed at whatever it was that caused that loss. As weíve learned, negative emotions lead to the dark side (anger, hate, fear etc). So by removing the opportunity for a fledgling Jedi to be become attached to things (people mostly), they lock them up in monasteries and keep them away from non-jedi people.

Now the flip side is that by experiencing that strong emotional attachment, people learn how to cope with loss. If youíve ever lost a beloved pet youíll get the idea. Losing people is a bit different (and much stronger emotionally), youíll never fully get over it, but you learn to cope and deal with those negative feelings.

The key word here is serenity. That means to be calm, peaceful, tranquil etc. It is very possible to be serene with loved ones around, just as it is to be disconnected from others.

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 02:40 PM
I would like to point out that the CLONES in the movies arn't Horrible. They arn't Malicious or vindictive. They don't go around wantonly destroying stuff. About the most they do follow orders.

Thats all they amount to, Robots. Robots made of flesh. Flesh and Bone.

The have no life. They where created in a vat, Grown in a Vat. They lived their child years in a school being trained for specific purposes.

They where created to be tools.

Tools made to spare the life of REAL people. People with Real families, and real lives. The guy whos DNA they used to make the CLONES even gave his express permission that his DNA can be used in whatever way possible.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 02:44 PM
I think the Jedi are afraid that if someone becomes attached to something and then loses that something. They will experience negative emotions, fear, anger hatred etc, all directed at whatever it was that caused that loss.

But their not. Their still connected to the jedi order. They still have friends, they have emotions.

So its simply "You cannot have a family"



They where created to be tools.


Except thier tools with emotions :smallsmile:

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 02:44 PM
Comparing them to horrible armies in grimdark futures. Im not sure what your point is.


The point I was making is that recruiting children doesn't automatically make the Jedi evil. You were declaring that it was.
Even if we ignore the Space Marines, I listed three other forces which do this, two of which aren't fictional.



Chah, Of COURSE most good movies require me to look up what the hell is going based on information that was revealed years later in supplements.

If you're going to be arguing the case on a forum, it makes sense to check your facts. In any case, looking up that information took me the whole of 30 seconds with the search term "Star wars clone army".



And that didn't stop the jedi from EMPLOYING slave labor and Yoda, the wise- leading the charge.

The clones were bred and trained to fight, they don't know how to do anything else. In most cases, they wanted to fight the enemy - I've read that most professional soldiers are like this before their first deployment into a warzone.

Whether it's morally wrong to create something that only wants to fight, is a grey area I'll admit, but calling it outright slave labour is incorrect.



Yes. I do not think that its ethical to mind control people into fighting a war they did not choose to be in.

Thats pretty much it.


I'm sorry, but how does "The clones are an outright abomination against life" equate to 'it's unethical to mind control people to fight a war'? Your two statements don't tally up with each other.

Again, I'll reiterate that the existence of the clones is a questionable area, especially since the Star Wars lore seems sparse on the rights of clones.



So why can't I have family? Because it impedes my judgment? That logic makes no sense since ANYTHING could technically impede my judgment.

Further to Forum Explorer's answers, it's not that they can't have family, it's that extended contact with your family is discouraged.
Again, that's nothing to do with the Force, but to do with the Jedi Order's teachings.

I disagree with that part of the teachings, but it doesn't mean the Force, the thing that the Jedi Order represent one half of, is at fault.



Except thier tools with emotions :smallsmile:

Given that you're disregarding EU, it doesn't make sense to start using an EU source for your argument. :smalltongue:
There's very little evidence in the movies of the clones having emotions. There's lots in the EU, from the various series and the games.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 02:51 PM
The point I was making is that recruiting children doesn't automatically make the Jedi evil.

Spartans where also barbaric abandoners of children and slave keepers.



If you're going to be arguing the case on a forum, it makes sense to check your facts. In any case, looking up that information took me the whole of 30 seconds with the search term "Star wars clone army".

Why do I NEED to know that info? I WATCHED the movie. I shouldn't be forced to read EU (I even specified- No EU)




Whether it's morally wrong to create something that only wants to fight, is a grey area I'll admit, but calling it outright slave labour is incorrect.
How are they different from people except from that? They have feelings, they have their own thoughts.

Their just brainwashed.



I'm sorry, but how does "The clones are an outright abomination against life" equate to 'it's unethical to mind control people to fight a war'? Your two statements don't tally up with each other.

I am a man of drama! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, I just find creating a living being created only for war is cruel and monstrous.


Again, I'll reiterate that the existence of the clones is a questionable area, especially since the Star Wars lore seems sparse on the rights of clones.

Mkay.

Thats why I say the Jedi are creeps. I find it morally abhor able. Not only that but they continued using something that was obviously a trojan horse.


I disagree with that part of the teachings, but it doesn't mean the Force, the thing that the Jedi Order represent one half of, is at fault.

Oh so its the JEDI ORDER thats ballistic and crazy. Not the force.

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:06 PM
:P I disagree with your saying, The Jedi Order represents one half. They don't, they represent a way of The Force.

I want to propose a excercise. Wherever you are, I want you to sit there, and try think of Nothing. Nothing at all. we will call that, The Force. In its purist form.

All the thoughts, that go through your head, while you think of Nothing. That represents how our feelings and emotions get in the way of thinking of Nothing.

Family, Friends and Lovers, while important to life, Pull us away from being able to think about The Foce. Its a sacrifce The Jedi have to make in order to achive the closet they can to The Force. When you are with the Force, your able to make choices and use the Powers withour prejudice.

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 03:06 PM
Spartans where also barbaric abandoners of children and slave keepers.


The Halo ones or the Greek ones? In any case, the Jedi are better than all the ones I listed because they don't send children into battle.

If you're seriously claiming that the recruitment of children is bad, then the girl scouts and the boy scouts must be bastions of pure evil to you. :smalltongue:



Why do I NEED to know that info? I WATCHED the movie. I shouldn't be forced to read EU (I even specified- No EU)

You needed to know that when you claimed Yoda, the head of the Jedi council, was responsible for commissioning the clone army. It changes the existence of the clones from something that had the tacit agreement of the Jedi council, to something that was the work of a rogue council member.



How are they different from people except from that? They have feelings, they have their own thoughts.

Their just brainwashed.

Seriously though, I just find creating a living being created only for war is cruel and monstrous.


Brainwashing implies that their natural thought processes have been adversely altered. They've been bred to fight, so conditioning is more correct word.

Why do you insist on making arguments that are answered in the EU, but refuse to read anything about it? :smallconfused:
It's why it's there, to fill in the blanks that the movies can't answer due to time and medium constraints.

Creating a living thing only for war - as Kyberwulf said, they've been created to spare the lives of citizens, people with an existence outside of war.



Oh so its the JEDI ORDER thats ballistic and crazy. Not the force.

Again, overly dramatic way of putting it, but true to an extent.
I'd say they're overly concerned on the Light Side aspects of the force where order and discipline leads to stagnation and rigidity.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 03:15 PM
If you're seriously claiming that the recruitment of children is bad, then the girl scouts and the boy scouts must be bastions of pure evil to you. :smalltongue:

Its not the thing that bugs me. Its that their taken away from their parents.


You needed to know that when you claimed Yoda, the head of the Jedi council, was responsible for commissioning the clone army. It changes the existence of the clones from something that had the tacit agreement of the Jedi council, to something that was the work of a rogue council member.

They CONTINUED to use the clones. I would have shut the facility down. And made much more (arguably) better droids. Also:

"Its a trap!....You dumb idiots!"


Brainwashing implies that their natural thought processes have been adversely altered. They've been bred to fight, so conditioning is more correct word.

So mandalorians have only war on their minds? Because a simple clone of bobba fet would be free willed. Cloning them into war machines is abhorent in my view.



It's why it's there, to fill in the blanks that the movies can't answer due to time and medium constraints.

Because thats ****ty writing. If ****ty writing makes me hate the jedi unless I read a plot hole cover up that doesn't work then why is the movie good?

Baby genuises is an AMAZING Film. Why don't you read the eu?



Creating a living thing only for war - as Kyberwulf said, they've been created to spare the lives of citizens, people with an existence outside of war.

Their still people. They where intentionally made to be still people to exploit tactical advantages. They created suicide soldiers that have no reason to live other than to kill. But I don't think we can discuss this issue without bringing in real world topics.


I'd say they're overly concerned on the Light Side aspects of the force where order and discipline leads to stagnation and rigidity.

So why should I care about them? If they do abhorent, stupid, and crazy things Im GLAD they where taken down. Thus no tension.

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:23 PM
You say no EU, the WATCH epispode two over again. The Jedi Order didn't even KNOW about the Exsistance of the Clone army. When they found out about it, they Spilt up Anakin and Obi Wan and Sent Obi Wan out to Investigate it.
When they found out about it.

The Clone army was a Tool. In exhistance.
What would you do? An army was being amassed. Targetring you and everything you held in belief, and swore to protect. An Army intent one taking over you way of life, and no amount of Diplomacy would disway them. An Army that could easly take over your people, who have not know Large Scale warfare in hundreds of years. Has no standing Army, or whatever army they have is laughable. (Think Canada.)
The ONLY way to bolster your defenses is to USE that tool that was made for you.

Weezer
2012-02-29, 03:26 PM
You say no EU, the WATCH epispode two over again. The Jedi Order didn't even KNOW about the Exsistance of the Clone army. When they found out about it, they Spilt up Anakin and Obi Wan and Sent Obi Wan out to Investigate it.
When they found out about it.

The Clone army was a Tool. In exhistance.
What would you do? An army was being amassed. Targetring you and everything you held in belief, and swore to protect. An Army intent one taking over you way of life, and no amount of Diplomacy would disway them. An Army that could easly take over your people, who have not know Large Scale warfare in hundreds of years. Has no standing Army, or whatever army they have is laughable. (Think Canada.)
The ONLY way to bolster your defenses is to USE that tool that was made for you.

This is very important to remember. The Jedi had no choice, it was use the Clone Army or get taken over by the Separatists.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 03:29 PM
If you where delivered a slave army, and found out that the same guy that MADE that slave army was related to a suspicious assassination AGAINST making a slave army, and its related to your enemies.

Not only that but why didn't you have an army in the first place (After years of knowing about that there are masses of weapons and an army of droids in the galaxy)? Or why not make a robot army?

Why use the slave army of course!

edit:

Point is that EVEN if you don't care morally, its still a goddam trojan horse! An obvious one!

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:32 PM
See the thing is, you can't CLAIM they are taken from their parents. Without going into EU stuff. They are there, and they are being trained. The movies do not really go into HOW they get the kids. Not into any specific Detail.

The thing is, your making moral and ethical claims about another societies way of life. You judging them to be a certain way, without even considering all the facts and information avaliable. You do this by claiming certain information is usable, and other information isn't. It may not be in the movies, but it is out there as facts.

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:35 PM
Yes, it is an OBVIOUS one, cause YOUR the ONE watching the movie. You know all the backround information. YOU know why things are happening. You can't claim Sherlock Holmes is stupid and dumb for NOT knowing the Door is Booby traped to explode, when you where shown the Bad guys where rigging it.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 03:35 PM
Sorry.

I got some of the EU confused with the movie. Jedi are still not allowed to love and it still makes no sense and still has the same final result.

I claim it is unethical because the story generally follows our way of thought. This is so that we may connect with the story.

Do we say that the spartans are horrible for what they did? Yes, we do. I have all the right to judge a fictional universe for creating an army of slaves (Mind controlled but still)

edit:

1) a bounty hunter tried to kill Senator Amidala before she voted on the creation of an Army of the Republic,
2) said bounty hunter fled to a planet that's been purged from the Jedi archives,
3) the people on the planet say they are creating a secret army 20 years before any recent conflict at the behest of a dead Jedi Master,
4) the bounty hunter then heads directly to the headquarters of the Secession movement,
5) where the leader of said movement says that a) the Chancellor of the Senate is a Sith Lord and b) has been arming both sides in an attempt to create a war that will allow him to take control of the Republic.
6) And Yoda's explicit response: use the secret clone army to fight the war. And NEVER investigate them at all.

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:45 PM
OF course Love is forbidden.
Poets and Writers have written about it for EONS

Love Lifts us up where we belong. But you can FALL so FAR from those Heights.

When you have an Amzaing power that depends on your Emotions for power, and that power is More powerful then a pen or a Hangun. If you ever been in Love before, and have that love taken from you. Think of that Emotional backlash. If your VERY THOUGHTS could Throw things around, Make people do what you want just by thinking it.
I am a pretty good guy, but when I am hurt on an emotional Level as that. I can't control myself to the best of my abilities. I lash out, without meaning to. I cry on my bed cause the pain overwhelms me. My thoughts and desires arn't the most noble. THOSE are the emotions and desires that can come from love. THOSE are the reasons that Love is Forbidden.

Love is a Passion, that is seldom Controllable. The Heights and the dispair.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 03:49 PM
So whats the point of life? I would hate to live a loveless life.

There can be no positive without negative. Love for my job, love for life, love for somebody.

There can be no chance of victory without chances of failure.

The thing is: Anikin was simply a messed up ****. Love had nothing to do with it.

He was a whiny self absorbed child either way. The explanation for those reasons is both stupid and INCREDIBLY contrived.

Their methodology makes no sense because george cannot write characters.

"I cant marry you because of cliche contrived laws of drama"

Weezer
2012-02-29, 03:50 PM
1) a bounty hunter tried to kill Senator Amidala before she voted on the creation of an Army of the Republic,
2) said bounty hunter fled to a planet that's been purged from the Jedi archives,
3) the people on the planet say they are creating a secret army 20 years before any recent conflict at the behest of a dead Jedi Master,
4) the bounty hunter then heads directly to the headquarters of the Secession movement,
5) where the leader of said movement says that a) the Chancellor of the Senate is a Sith Lord and b) has been arming both sides in an attempt to create a war that will allow him to take control of the Republic.
6) And Yoda's explicit response: use the secret clone army to fight the war. And NEVER investigate them at all.

I don't think that you can say they never investigated them. You see Yoda reluctantly using the Clone Army to take Geonosis in order to save Obi Wan et al and then there is a time jump. Who knows what happens in the interim or even what happens off screen. Sure we can say with confidence that it doesn't happen on screen, but there are many Jedi agents that could've been used to investigate that we didn't see. The movies show one small yet integral part of the whole Clone War, much happens that we don't see if only due to time limitations.

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:53 PM
Your overlooking something, and blaiming it all on the Jedi.

The Senator Palpatine.

He Created so much chaos, and confusion. So much Disimformation went out. The Jedi are NOT Omnipotent, and never claim to be. The where knocked of balance and forced to react. Their main source of power was hampared. Which is never a good place to be. That was one of the Reasons Papatine was so smart. He forced The Jedi and the republic to play his game, and he never gave them time to recover, and reflect on the situation. He just kept the pressure on them. Forcing them to respond.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 03:55 PM
Because if they thought about it for a second they would order the stopping of the production of the clones. Or at least inspect them to you know, avoid a possible killswitch in them. :smalltongue:

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:57 PM
You live to serve.
To serve something greater then you.

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 03:57 PM
Its not the thing that bugs me. Its that their taken away from their parents.


Again, no indication in the movies that they were forcible taken from their parents or that they were made to stay away from their parents.



They CONTINUED to use the clones. I would have shut the facility down. And made much more (arguably) better droids.

Droids with the very clear weaknesses depicted in the first movie? Droids that are owned and sold by the Trade Federation? :smalltongue:



So mandalorians have only war on their minds? Because a simple clone of bobba fet would be free willed. Cloning them into war machines is abhorent in my view.

Couple things, one movie and one EU. The clones are copies of Boba's father, Jango; two, Jango is a Mandalorian by culture, not by birth.
In any case, there are plenty of examples of warrior cultures - the samurai for example, or the Jedi at a push.



Because thats ****ty writing. If ****ty writing makes me hate the jedi unless I read a plot hole cover up that doesn't work then why is the movie good?

At least that's something we can agree on.



Their still people.

Not necessarily. That's the grey area I pointed out.

Star Wars lore doesn't state the rights of clones, so they could be people, or they could be just really smart tools.
Droids don't have rights, but they're clearly sentient, capable of personality and feelings.



So why should I care about them? If they do abhorent, stupid, and crazy things Im GLAD they where taken down. Thus no tension.

No one said you had to. If you loathe the movies so much, then why argue so hard about it on a thread made for discussing it?

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 03:59 PM
Again, I reiterate, They couldn't have POSSIBLY KNOWN about Order 66. Not with everything going on. Not with the Force being clouded by so much Destruction and chaos. They arn't Omnipotent. They are mortal. Thus are subject to the same flaws as the rest of us.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 04:03 PM
Again, no indication in the movies that they were forcible taken from their parents or that they were made to stay away from their parents.

I apoligize for that. Not allowed to love still. WTF.


Droids with the very clear weaknesses depicted in the first movie?

Idiocy? Blowing up ships from the inside by pur luck?


Droids that are owned and sold by the Trade Federation? :smalltongue:

Oh your right! They called dibs. I was thinking of reverse engineering, but they called dibs.


Couple things, one movie and one EU. The clones are copies of Boba's father, Jango; two, Jango is a Mandalorian by culture, not by birth.
In any case, there are plenty of examples of warrior cultures - the samurai for example, or the Jedi at a push.

They still have a CHOICE.


At least that's something we can agree on.

Yup.



Star Wars lore doesn't state the rights of clones, so they could be people, or they could be just really smart tools.

But they don't act like that. They seem to have emotions alright.


Droids don't have rights, but they're clearly sentient, capable of personality and feelings Out of place comedy relief. :smallannoyed:

I wouldn't make c3po to fight. I would have made EMOTIONLESS droids fight.


No one said you had to. If you loathe the movies so much, then why argue so hard about it on a thread made for discussing it?[/QUOTE]

Because somebody is wrong on the interwebz! :smallbiggrin:

That was a XDCK reference. or however its called.


Your overlooking something, and blaming it all on the Jedi.

The Senator Palpatine.


The jedi where ****ing stupid. Palpatins plot falls apart under minor scrutiny.

"What if anikin died, what if dooku spilled the beans, what if they arrested him in a public area"


Again, I reiterate, They couldn't have POSSIBLY KNOWN about Order 66. Not with everything going on. Not with the Force being clouded by so much Destruction and chaos. They arn't Omnipotent. They are mortal. Thus are subject to the same flaws as the rest of us.

Would you, after seeing the above evidence use the clones? Or at least not check them?

Brother Oni
2012-02-29, 04:19 PM
Idiocy? Blowing up ships from the inside by pur luck?


Over-reliance on a single command point. You blow up the transmitter, your entire planetary deployed army goes inactive.



Oh your right! They called dibs. I was thinking of reverse engineering, but they called dibs.

So how are they going reverse engineer the droids, manufacture enough of them AND deploy them before the Trade Federation walks all over the Republic?
The Republic has no standing army - the war would be over in weeks.



They still have a CHOICE.
But they don't act like that. They seem to have emotions alright.

Again, grey area on clone rights.
Dogs have emotions - do they have the same legal rights as people?

Honestly if droids don't have rights in the star wars universe, what makes you think clones do? That fact that they're organic?



I wouldn't make c3po to fight. I would have made EMOTIONLESS droids fight.


So one quick software upgrade later and now all your droids have intelligence, autonomy and personality.
Heck, that's be a good way to stop your droid army - give them sentience and now you'll be too guilt ridden to use them in combat or mindwipe them back to factory defaults. :smalltongue:

Droids don't have any choice about whether they fight or not - did they ask R2D2's permission to load him up into Luke's X-Wing?
Droids are property in the SW universe, it'd be like you thanking your sat-nav at the end of your journey.

Star Wars morals are not your morals - don't judge a culture and universe solely on your own values.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 04:22 PM
I realized that I was nit picking holes inside holes really.

Im SICK of arguing. I do have other points but I think we can both agree to leave it at that.

Personally I think its easier to just except the plot holes.

Lord Seth
2012-02-29, 04:23 PM
It may cause some issues with the EU, but I tend to think Lucas can happily ignore elements of it if he so chooses. But I like how it adds to the "monk" aesthetic of the Jedi Order. As a monk-like group it is a common theme for them to not have marriages in their lives, whether eastern or western in origin. So I think it is thematically appropriate for the Jedi Order. Even if it is not the smartest choice of lifestyle.The problem is, as was pointed out by RedLetterMedia somewhere (EDIT: Found it (http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-ii-attack-of-the-clones/). It starts at about 14:21 into the Part 1 video), that all the Jedi are recruited in their first years of life. They made no real choice or commitment to lead the monastery lifestyle. You'd really think the issue of Jedi falling in love would be a heck of a lot more prevalent than it's portrayed as because they'd grow up and stuff like hormones would start up.

Actually, it gets pretty disturbing when you think about the implications of how there's a bunch of people who are forbidden to have romantic/sexual relationships (and remember, they didn't even choose this) that are training young children...

Forbidding their members from having romantic relationships could maybe make sense. Training their members from infancy could maybe make sense. But the two together do not make sense, unless there's some kind of love-repressing injection Jedi kids get that Anakin was too old for or something.

Kyberwulf
2012-02-29, 04:29 PM
What your failing to understand. Is the SHEER SIZE and SCOOP of this Universe, and the Infinities of the Politics of said universe.
Think of OUR World. Yes i said OUR world... not OUR universe. Think about ALL the people. The Countries. How much they are broken up. Think of ALL the Possible information out there. Now. Times that by the SHeer amount of Planets in the Galexies of the Star Wars Univers. Your claiming The Jedi should have know, out of ALL that information, from a Group consisting of two people, that there was a plan going on. AND this Group of people specializies in Secrecy. I mean, we are talking about know the plans and plots of two people inside a shadow angency, inside a shadow agnency, inside something like the CIA.

They Couldn't arrest the Senator in public, as in he wasn't IN the public when they went to arrest him. They suspected him of treason, a well liked politicion. Wll liked by THOUSANDS of Diplomants who have VAST political powers. The Jedi couldn't even pretend to make a treason charge against him with out SOLID .. IRREFUTABLE proof against him. Hell, they didn't even move against him till they found out he was THE SITH LORD. The ONE Organization that they swore to destroy. But thats EU. it doesn't count.

Dooku didn't spill the Beans cause one, he was arrogant. Two he was promised to be number 2 in the universes Power Center, should it work. Not only Number 2, but primed to be Number 1 when that person can no longer maintain his postion. ( which i am SuRE the count plotted on killing him as soon as they took over the galaxy.)

And how could you look into their "Programming" when you don't have the time.

Again, you don't understand just HOW much time the Jedi didn't have.

Think about this... How much S*** has to hit the fan before the Tower FULL of Jedi Masters leave their Towers to get their Hands dirt. not one or two, but ALL of them.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 04:33 PM
Im really too tired to argue. :smallsigh:

I still think the jedi are idiots.

TheThan
2012-02-29, 04:34 PM
But their not. Their still connected to the jedi order. They still have friends, they have emotions.
So its simply "You cannot have a family"


Oh yeah, very true. I actually consider their point of view a fallacy, removing them from society does not in fact purge them of emotions. If anything itíll drive them to have stronger emotions when they are finally introduced into society and learn about all the fun stuff out there. But then there are the obvious situations like what happens when two Jedi fall in love? Are they allowed to marry, do they get separated and sent off to different planets, what happens?

One would think that the Jedi would encourage their members to fall in love and make families. After all the force clearly flows through someoneís blood. This means that that the chances of two people producing a child capable of wielding the force would actually increase if those two people are already capable of wielding the force. Granted this could lead to forced mating, where two people that are genetically compatible are paired up in order to make stronger offspring (think the PsiCorps in Babylon 5). Iím not saying it would, Iím saying it could. Since Jedi are supposed to be the good guys in the story, I doubt it would happen.

At the very least, separating their pupils from the world could only be done to remove unnecessary distractions. So that they could study and train away from the hustle and bustle of the world. But that falls apart when you consider their main training grounds is located on a PLANET WIDE CITY. That planet also happens to be the center of the galaxyís government, and therefore a powerful political player in its own right.

So we have an order of warrior monks that is not though out in any cohesive manner. It all feels very stream of thought. Its also clear that nobody bothered to check Lucas's writing, nobody stopped him and said "this doesn't make sense", or "this seems like a bad idea". We actually know this is the case, so yeah.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-02-29, 04:40 PM
THANK YOU! :smallsigh:

Wouldn't Jedi families be fun to see?

Omergideon
2012-02-29, 07:17 PM
SNIP

I agree. This is a big problem with the Jedi way and something that, in the case of Anakin especially, led to obvious problems. I do not doubt that the Jedi order choosing monasticism was a bad choice. I can understand it, based on the issues of control, superpowers, emotional attachment and the like. But I think it was the wrong choice.

My only comment is that monasticism fits in with the aesthetic of the Jedi as warrior monks. Not that it was a good idea.

(though I believe that sexual relationships were not forbidden, only attachment to a singular partner in a way that can leave you open to manipulation or the dark side. Could be wrong.)

Devonix
2012-02-29, 08:55 PM
THANK YOU! :smallsigh:

Wouldn't Jedi families be fun to see?

They Are I just love the Horn family from EU

Dad's a Jedi Master, Mom's an Ex spy, kids are jedi knights they're all well adjusted.

Oh and the grandad's an ex smuggler that runs a casino on a decomissioned star destroyer

NinjaStylerobot
2012-03-01, 01:22 AM
And together- They fight crime!

LokeyITP
2012-03-01, 06:07 AM
Thinking that Lucas has any idea of what's going on in Star Wars is probably a huge assumption :)

Watched the prequels, was shocked at just how bad they turned out (story, dialog, characterization). Well, not that shocked, prequels have tripped up much better writers/etc in whatever medium. Whether or not there's a good story to be told in the history near the OT with a lot of those characters...

I sometimes wonder whether say making a movie about the throwaway dialog in the elevator up to Padme's place in the 2nd prequel might be decent, but then I come to my senses. Lots of people besides Lucas kept the OT from being like the PT, thankfully, but maybe with a few more versions the OT will be just as nonsensical :)

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-01, 07:11 AM
I look at it this way. The flaws in the prequel Order are the reason they failed. They had become so edified, so codifed and had lost their way with all the restrictions and codes that, a bit like Omnia in Prachett's Small Gods they were essentially now only adhering to the institution (i.e. the Order), rather than the faith (i.e. the Force.) I think the prequel Order probably spent far too much time listening to the Force - but without necessarily hearing it. This made Palpatine's job of screwing them over so much easier, because this excessive lawfulness (for want of a word), far from strengthening the Order, had weakened it. And by the time Yoda realised he'd fragged it up, everyone else was already dead and Palpatine had won.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

Omergideon
2012-03-01, 08:27 AM
I look at it this way. The flaws in the prequel Order are the reason they failed. They had become so edified, so codifed and had lost their way with all the restrictions and codes that, a bit like Omnia in Prachett's Small Gods they were essentially now only adhering to the institution (i.e. the Order), rather than the faith (i.e. the Force.) I think the prequel Order probably spent far too much time listening to the Force - but without necessarily hearing it. This made Palpatine's job of screwing them over so much easier, because this excessive lawfulness (for want of a word), far from strengthening the Order, had weakened it. And by the time Yoda realised he'd fragged it up, everyone else was already dead and Palpatine had won.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

I think this has further support as a view in Qui-Gon's character. At all times he is presented to us as an ideal and thoroughly magnificent Jedi. Every action he takes seems to suggest he is doing things correctly. And he is much more willing to break rules and is seen as something of a Maverick by the Order, even willing to accept Anakin as a Padawan over the council's objections to see he is trained (and it is odd how he can do that). So the fact that our Ideal Jedi is one who disregards the council when he feels it is right, and who contradicts Yoda to his pupil seems to suggest that there were some problems with the order as it was.

Even Obi-Wan admits his part in failing Anakin.


Not saying this is necessarily the case, but the arguement could be made.

Tiki Snakes
2012-03-01, 08:47 AM
I look at it this way. The flaws in the prequel Order are the reason they failed. They had become so edified, so codifed and had lost their way with all the restrictions and codes that, a bit like Omnia in Prachett's Small Gods they were essentially now only adhering to the institution (i.e. the Order), rather than the faith (i.e. the Force.) I think the prequel Order probably spent far too much time listening to the Force - but without necessarily hearing it. This made Palpatine's job of screwing them over so much easier, because this excessive lawfulness (for want of a word), far from strengthening the Order, had weakened it. And by the time Yoda realised he'd fragged it up, everyone else was already dead and Palpatine had won.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I watch the Prequels. It kind of helps that I don't see any evidence for them existing in the same continuity as the original trilogy, though. :smallsmile:

Devonix
2012-03-01, 09:05 AM
One big problem I had was the thing in Episode three where Yoda tells Obi wan that Qui Gon appeared to him in a vison with "Secret teachings" about how to become a force ghost.

We all just took it at face value before that when a jedi dies they become one with the force and thats what the force ghosts were in RoTJ

Now that it is some super special technique it makes even less sense because how then was anakin able to do it???

hamishspence
2012-03-01, 12:56 PM
(though I believe that sexual relationships were not forbidden, only attachment to a singular partner in a way that can leave you open to manipulation or the dark side. Could be wrong.)

I believe Lucas stated this in an interview. Shortly afterward, novels appeared (Clone Wars Gambit) that made it clear Obi-Wan had experienced such a relationship.


And by the time Yoda realised he'd fragged it up, everyone else was already dead and Palpatine had won.

In the RoTS novel, halfway through the fight with Palpatine, as he becomes aware he's losing, he has this very insight- that he's messed it up. When Obi-Wan suggests they raise the twins, Yoda says no- being raised by a loving family is going to be just as good as being raised by Jedi, to ensure that Luke & Leia grow up suitable for becoming Jedi later.



We all just took it at face value before that when a jedi dies they become one with the force and thats what the force ghosts were in RoTJ

Now that it is some super special technique it makes even less sense because how then was anakin able to do it???

In Ryder Windham's The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, Obi Wan's spirit takes Anakin through the process as he dies- Anakin is surprised but grateful.

Devonix
2012-03-01, 09:15 PM
I believe Lucas stated this in an interview. Shortly afterward, novels appeared (Clone Wars Gambit) that made it clear Obi-Wan had experienced such a relationship.



In the RoTS novel, halfway through the fight with Palpatine, as he becomes aware he's losing, he has this very insight- that he's messed it up. When Obi-Wan suggests they raise the twins, Yoda says no- being raised by a loving family is going to be just as good as being raised by Jedi, to ensure that Luke & Leia grow up suitable for becoming Jedi later.



In Ryder Windham's The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, Obi Wan's spirit takes Anakin through the process as he dies- Anakin is surprised but grateful.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

I am sick and tired of the EU being used to fix mistakes in the prequels. Just when in this story does Obi Wan's spirit have the time to walk Anakin through the acension process. Is it after Luke takes off his mask but before he dies? Umm He died giving his last words to Luke and Luke was present the entire time then took his body back to Endor... When did Obi Wan show up?

NinjaStylerobot
2012-03-02, 01:49 AM
I am sick and tired of the EU being used to fix mistakes in the prequels. Just when in this story does Obi Wan's spirit have the time to walk Anakin through the acension process. Is it after Luke takes off his mask but before he dies? Umm He died giving his last words to Luke and Luke was present the entire time then took his body back to Endor... When did Obi Wan show up?

I think he meant spiritualy. Its still stupid, because of dumb plot holes that also take away a sense of mystery but it sort of explains it.

hamishspence
2012-03-02, 07:15 AM
I think he meant spiritualy. Its still stupid, because of dumb plot holes that also take away a sense of mystery but it sort of explains it.

It is. I quoted it in another thread a while back- this is what the book said:


Closing his eyes as he slumped back againt the shuttle ramp, Anakin Skywalker had every reason to believe he was finally about to embrace perpetual darkness.

Not for the first time, he was wrong.

Initially, there was darkness for Anakin Skywalker, a boundless shadowy realm, like a universe without stars. But then, from somewhere at the edge of his awareness, he perceived a distant, shimmering light, then heard a voice say, Anakin.

The voice was familiar.

Although Anakin no longer had a body or mouth with which to speak, he somehow answered, Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very very -

Anakin, listen carefully, Obi-Wan interrupted, and Anakin was aware that the distant light was either growing brighter or closer, or perhaps both. You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force, If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades.

Knowing he was beyond redemption, Anakin said, But Master ... why me?

Because you ended the horror, Anakin, Obi-Wan said. Because you fulfilled the prophesy.

The light was very bright now.

Anakin's first thought was that he might be able to see his children again. He said, Thank you, Master.

Brother Oni
2012-03-02, 07:18 AM
It is. I quoted it in another thread a while back- this is what the book said:

I'm with Devonix. Ewww. :smallsigh:

Did Lucas have a hand in writing that?

Devonix
2012-03-02, 07:32 AM
I'm with Devonix. Ewww. :smallsigh:

Did Lucas have a hand in writing that?

:smallconfused:Wow that was even worse than I thought.

The way the movie portrayed it was that in his final scene with Luke he had finaly found peace with himself. With who he was and the mistakes he made, he told Luke to tell his sister that he was right, there was good in him and he could die at last in peace and join the force with those that had gone before.

hamishspence
2012-03-02, 07:33 AM
Don't know- the writer has written a few Star Wars reference books (mostly aimed at younger ages)- so its possible Lucas gave him a snippet of extra story and said "Work it into your book".



The way the movie portrayed it was that in his final scene with Luke he had finaly found peace with himself. With who he was and the mistakes he made, he told Luke to tell his sister that he was right, there was good in him and he could die at last in peace and join the force with those that had gone before.

True. Maybe, because of Episode III, and people's reactions to Anakin's massacre, the author thought Anakin needed to "believe himself to not have been redeemed merely by killing the Emperor".

Devonix
2012-03-02, 07:51 AM
Don't know- the writer has written a few Star Wars reference books (mostly aimed at younger ages)- so its possible Lucas gave him a snippet of extra story and said "Work it into your book".



True. Maybe, because of Episode III, and people's reactions to Anakin's massacre, the author thought Anakin needed to "believe himself to not have been redeemed merely by killing the Emperor".

My biggest problem is that stuff like that is considered G cannon when the other EU stuff and Bioware stuff is considered less valid.

Acording to Lucas this is now what happened, and what allways happened.

hamishspence
2012-03-02, 09:30 AM
Technically since it's not a "movie novelization" but a novel that covers events in all six movies, and between them, it's still C canon.


"Coming back as a Force Ghost is a lost secret that was rediscovered by Qui-Gon and taught to Obi-Wan and Yoda" was a G-canon "interview statement" by Lucas.

And The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader's scene could be considered a C-Canon interpretation of that statement - as applied to Anakin coming back.

Since I haven't seen a G-Canon interview by Lucas stating "that's exactly the way it happened".

Devonix
2012-03-02, 09:36 AM
Technically since it's not a "movie novelization" but a novel that covers events in all six movies, and between them, it's still C canon.


"Coming back as a Force Ghost is a lost secret that was rediscovered by Qui-Gon and taught to Obi-Wan and Yoda" was a G-canon "interview statement" by Lucas.

And The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader's scene could be considered a C-Canon interpretation of that statement - as applied to Anakin coming back.

Since I haven't seen a G-Canon interview by Lucas stating "that's exactly the way it happened".

Which then leaves open the plothole of how Anakin became a force ghost...

we can't really win can we. At least I get to ignore the novel the more easily than before...I was still going to ignore it.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-02, 09:50 AM
Which then leaves open the plothole of how Anakin became a force ghost...

we can't really win can we. At least I get to ignore the novel the more easily than before...I was still going to ignore it.

I think Star Wars' trouble nowadays in that twenty years on from the inception of the EU in anger (i.e. the Thrawn Trilogy etc), it has got heavier and in it's own weight. And while the early EU (especially things like the RPG) helpfully gave names and background to every little thing in the movies, which was a nice thing to fill an RPG crouce book tie-in with, most of the later writers did too, and tended to link them together...things just aren't that neat in the real world.

And with Lucas' apparently cooling interest in the EU as time has gone on, there is no longer a guiding hand and the helm, and stuff is now cheerfully over-riding other stuff because no-one seems very interested in keeping it straight anymore. Time was, I held of SW as an example of a much-more together continuity than, say Star Trek, because it tried to be consisent within itself. I don't think I can say that any longer, sadly. And I suspect it will only get worse over time; until the inevitable remake in 50-100 years or so, when (if?) the OT movies become public domain...!

MLai
2012-03-02, 10:31 AM
One very quick note.
Can we please stop saying "younglings"???!
It's a stupid word Lucas made up that is absolutely laughable. From a completely mediocre scene in a bad movie.
It makes you look bad to say that word.
Use a real word: CHILDREN.

Brother Oni
2012-03-02, 11:41 AM
One very quick note.
Can we please stop saying "younglings"???!
It's a stupid word Lucas made up that is absolutely laughable. From a completely mediocre scene in a bad movie.
It makes you look bad to say that word.
Use a real word: CHILDREN.

Checking through the thread, nobody's used that term except you. :smalltongue:

hamishspence
2012-03-02, 12:08 PM
And with Lucas' apparently cooling interest in the EU as time has gone on, there is no longer a guiding hand and the helm, and stuff is now cheerfully over-riding other stuff because no-one seems very interested in keeping it straight anymore. Time was, I held of SW as an example of a much-more together continuity than, say Star Trek, because it tried to be consisent within itself. I don't think I can say that any longer, sadly. And I suspect it will only get worse over time; until the inevitable remake in 50-100 years or so, when (if?) the OT movies become public domain...!

I think the problem's the other way round- continuity problems tend to occur when Lucas interferes. The prequels. Interviews. The Clone Wars TV series. And so on.

There's one guy at Lucasfilm (Leland Chee) given the job of "keeping everything straight" but it's hard when his own bosses come up with new changes to existing continuity.

Such as Maul coming from Dathomir now, instead of Iridonia.

NinjaStylerobot
2012-03-02, 12:25 PM
Checking through the thread, nobody's used that term except you. :smalltongue:

Well its ok. Stop acting like a babe-ling. Even if your a teenling, its no need to act like that.
Always wanted to say that

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-02, 12:29 PM
I think the problem's the other way round- continuity problems tend to occur when Lucas interferes. The prequels. Interviews. The Clone Wars TV series. And so on.

There's one guy at Lucasfilm (Leland Chee) given the job of "keeping everything straight" but it's hard when his own bosses come up with new changes to existing continuity.

Such as Maul coming from Dathomir now, instead of Iridonia.

As I understand it, though, Lucas doesn't directly write the Clone Wars show, does he? If not, then he's not necessarily to blame for all the continuity disruptions. But whatever, the apparently lack of cohesion - and all the retcons - aren't being slapped down by whoever is in charge of green-lighting it. I think that it's a combination failure of all of them, for one reason or another. I suspect either Leland Chee isn't that bothered himself, or more likely, isn't given enough clout to say "no, you can't do that" becuase Lucas (or whoever) doesn't care enough about the consistency - and the writers of the show themselves (if it isn't Lucas) - and a lot of the novels, for that matter - are not working and collaborating as much as used to(at least some of them...well okay Zhan and Stackpole did, so I might be holding to too high standard!), and the former are clearly going "that's a cool idea" regardless of how stupid it is. (I'm not up to date on the series, but one of the last episodes I saw, it was implying that they were bringing Maul back, despite him being explictly - at the time - killed off permenatly...) As well as commiting the afore-mentioned sin of making the universe far too small and tidy by inter-relating everyone...

hamishspence
2012-03-02, 12:31 PM
Well its ok. Stop acting like a babe-ling. Even if your a teenling, its no need to act like that.

Dwarfs in Warhamer use "manling" a lot.


I suspect either Leland Chee isn't that bothered himself, or more likely, isn't given enough clout to say "no, you can't do that" becuase Lucas (or whoever) doesn't care enough about the consistency - and the writers of the show themselves (if it isn't Lucas) - and a lot of the novels, for that matter - are not working and collaborating as much as used to(at least some of them...well okay Zhan and Stackpole did, so I might be holding to too high standard!), and the former are clearly going "that's a cool idea" regardless of how stupid it is. (I'm not up to date on the series, but one of the last episodes I saw, it was implying that they were bringing Maul back, despite him being explictly - at the time - killed off permenatly...)

Some authors seem to be especially enthusiastic about continuity nods (James Luceno in particular- his Darth Plagueis is full of them.)

Maul was "brought back" in Vader vs Maul, and in Visionaries. It wasn't clear whether "Maul" was a duplicate or not in Vader vs Maul, and Visionaries was explicitly an Infinities source- so non-canon.

Maybe Lucas had (again) changed his mind?

Tiki Snakes
2012-03-02, 01:53 PM
Perhaps the reason why Clone Wars is freer and looser with canon is that the idea of there being a single canon continuity is so preposterous at this point that it's basically self defeating to try and follow any of it, so they're literally just focusing on telling interesting stories?