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Amnoriath
2012-02-29, 02:51 PM
New, to this forum and it may be bold to start with rehashing a class but I though I give it a shot. As many of you know the original Soulborn was done poorly in almost every respect. It also didn't make sense theme wise as there was already an alignment idealist. Do keep in mind this is intended to be different so judge it please on the class itself. As such there are also going to be a new set of soulmelds in which I will try to post, but feel free to offer some ideas.
Soulborn
Description: Many fighters look to the warriors of past in appreciation or even reverence for their great achievements, but a Soulborn embodies them. They seek to embed themselves into the very experiences, emotions, and actions of those long past to hone their skill beyond what any mere fighter is capable of.
Alignment: A Soulborn may be of any alignment. After all, they look to emulate and integrate any technique or philosophy for combat perfection. A lawful Soulborn may look to emulate a hero of their own culture's past to uphold those ideals to the fullest. A chaotic Soulborn often will seek to adapt many forms to make their own morals.
Hite die: d10
{table=head]|BAB|F|R|W|
Class abilities |
1|1|2|0|0|Paradigm, Essentia Surge(+1) 1/day|
2|2|3|0|0|Bonus feat|
3|3|3|1|1|Incarnum training|
4|4|4|1|1|Essentia Surge 2/day|
5|5|4|1|1|Chakra Binds(crown, feet, hands)|
6|6|5|2|2|Essentia Surge(+2)|
7|7|5|2|2|Bonus feat|
8|8|6|2|2|Essentia Surge 3/day|
9|9|6|3|3|Incarnum training|
10|10|7|3|3|Chakra Binds(brow, shoulders, arms)|
11|11|7|3|3|Bonus feat|
12|12|8|4|4|Essentia Surge(+3) 4/day|
13|13|8|4|4|Incarnum training|
14|14|9|4|4|Essentia Surge(Twin surge)|
15|15|9|5|5|Bonus feat|
16|16|10|5|5|Essentia Surge 5/day|
17|17|10|5|5|Essentia Surge(+4)|
18|18|11|6|6|Chakra Binds(throat, waist)|
19|19|11|6|6|Incarnum training|
20|20|12|6|6|Essentia Surge 6/day Incarnum Perfection|
[/table]


{table=head]|Soulmelds|Essentia|Chakra binds|
|
1|
1|
0|
|
1|
1|
0|
|
1|
2|
0|
|
1|
2|
0|
|
2|
3|
1|
|
2|
3|
1|
|
2|
4|
1|
|
2|
4|
1|
|
3|
5|
1|
|
3|
5|
2|
|
3|
6|
2|
|
3|
6|
2|
|
4|
7|
2|
|
4|
7|
2|
|
4|
8|
3|
|
5|
9|
3|
|
5|
10|
3|
|
5|
11|
3|
|
6|
12|
3|
|
6|
13|
4|
[/table]



Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: as a fighter
Skills: (2+Int. mod.)x4: Concentration, Craft, Knowledge(arcana), Spellcraft, Profession, Ride, Handle Animal, Bluff
Class Features
Meldshaping: Like all other meldshaping classes they need a full nights rest and one hour of meditation to shape their soulmelds, in which they are prepared for the day. At first level a Soulborn may shape one soulmeld and has an essential pool of one. They gain one soulmeld at level one as well as one essentia point. Their meldshaper level is equal to half of their Soulborn level.
Soulmelds: Soulborns have soulmelds based upon fighting forms and boosting physical prowess. Unlike other soulmelds the descriptors are based upon heroic path in which the Soulborn emulates. Many of the Soulborn soulmelds gain scaling bonuses with the meldshaping level if their descriptor matches the paradigm. Those that allow saves are wisdom based.
(Su) Essentia Surge: A Soulborn learns to focus on a single essentia based ability at a time to great increase its power. Whenever a Soulborn uses a swift action to invest essentia they may initiate an essentia surge. When they do this they may select one soulmeld, incarnum feat, or other ability that runs off essentia and invest more essentia into it than normally allowed for their level or by their constitution. While in effect the essentia invested cannot be reallocated out of the selected receptacle by any means. This ability lasts for 1+con. modifier rounds and may only be initiated once an encounter. Once it ends the invested essentia automatically returns to their pool and they become sickened for rounds equal to the surge. They get additional uses at levels 4,8, 12, 16, and 20.
The capacity of the surge increases at levels 6, 12, and 17. At level 14 they may initiate a twin surge in which they are allowed to choose another receptacle, however for every point of essentia invested in one the other acts as if it has been invested in just the same.
(Ex)Paradigm: At first level a Soulborn chooses a heroic path in which they want to focus on and develop as they ascend levels in the class. At first level they receive bonus skills based upon which paradigm they chose. While choosing a paradigm they must also select an opposition. Upon selecting an opposition they forfeit the soulmelds with that descriptor and may not select them even by means of shape soulmeld. Soulmelds of their paradigm are treated having a meldshaper level equal to their Soulborn level.
Juggernaut: Jump, Swim, Intimidate, Climb
Daredevil: Tumble, Move Silently, Hide, Sleight of Hand
Vanguard: Heal, Survival, Listen, Spot
Bonus feats: At levels 2, 7 and every four levels after a Soulborn may chose feats from the fighter list as well as any with the incarnum descriptor that they qualify for.
Incarnum Training: Soulborns learn to further awaken their prowess through the use of Incarnum. At level 3 they may select any incarnum feat or essentia based class/racial ability and treat it as if they had invested a point of essentia into it. This does not count against the maximum they may invest at any time it just augments. They may switch this augmentation every time they level up. They may add to one other ability at levels 9, 13, and 19. One canít have multiple trainings on one ability.

Incarnum Perfection: No longer can a Soulbornís body age naturally or magically. They also cease to become sickened from using an essentia surge.

bobthe6th
2012-02-29, 04:06 PM
Tables are your friend. The titorial is in one of the stikied thread. Readers are often layzy...

Amnoriath
2012-02-29, 05:42 PM
Tables are your friend. The titorial is in one of the stikied thread. Readers are often layzy...

I had them in a table on Office but it didn't transfer. The text won't even allow to me edit it right so it can be decently spaced. I can't find tables on here could you post what you are talking about please?

bobthe6th
2012-02-29, 06:07 PM
sorry for the inelegant privious post, it was a phone post. now, to point

I'm talking about
{table=head]thing one|thing two|cat
dave|eats|cake
get|the|idea?
[/table]

you can find the tutorial for tables here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677), even has preset class tables... they really make the classes readable.

Amnoriath
2012-02-29, 11:24 PM
sorry for the inelegant privious post, it was a phone post. now, to point

I'm talking about
{table=head]thing one|thing two|cat
dave|eats|cake
get|the|idea?
[/table]

you can find the tutorial for tables here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677), even has preset class tables... they really make the classes readable.

Thank you very much, I think got it a bit after some finagling. Now, what do you think of the class itself?

bobthe6th
2012-03-01, 12:14 AM
{table=head]level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|special
1|+1|+2|0|0|Paradigm, Essentia Surge(+1) 1/day
2|+2|+3|0|0|Bonus feat
3|+3|+3|1|1|Incarnum training
4|+4|+4|+1|+1|Essentia Surge 2/day
5|+5|+4|+1|+1|Chakra Binds(crown, feet, hands)
6|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Essentia Surge(+2)
7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Bonus feat
8|+8/+3|6|2|2|Essentia Surge 3/day
9|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Incarnum training
10|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Chakra Binds(brow, shoulders, arms)
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Essentia Surge(+3) 4/day
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Incarnum training
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Essentia Surge(Twin surge)
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Bonus feat
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Essentia Surge 5/day
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Essentia Surge(+4)
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Chakra Binds(throat, waist)
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Incarnum training
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Essentia Surge 6/day Incarnum Perfection
[/table]

you want to table to look oficial, as people want a common base to understand the class from. gotta sleep, but I will try to comment soon

Person_Man
2012-03-01, 09:11 AM
Welcome to the forum! It's good to see more interest in Magic of Incarnum in particular, which is a difficult but rewarding rule set.

Anywho, due to my lazyness and poor eyesight, it's difficult for me to read your revision. You may wish to look at my Soulborn fixes here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441). (They take totally different approaches to the same issue). You can just quote my original post, and then change the numbers and descriptions as you see fit. (Though obviously you shouldn't copy the content of any class abilities I've written, because that's plagiarism/rude).

Also, the Essentia Surge and Incarnum Training abilities are a bit confusing, and quite breakable. Essentia capacity is extremely powerful. For example, the Spellward Shirt (an Incarnate and Soulborn soulmeld) gives you Spell Resistance of 5 + (4*essentia invested). Base essentia capacity is 1-4 (based on hit dice) + 1 from an expensive magic item +1 from a Feat (for that soulmeld only) +2 from Incarnate class abilities (at 3rd and 15th levels). That's a maximum of 8 for an Incarnate (or 6 for anyone else), and will generally be 1-4 if you do not invest in the magic item and Feat. That translates into a maximum Spell Resistance of 37 for the Incarnate (~80% resistance against a 20th level caster) and maximum Spell Resistance of 29 for everyone else (~45% resistance against a 20th level caster), with typical resistance being slightly lower for much of your progression (until you can afford the magic item and feat).

Your class abilities appear to give you an essentia capacity of 1-4 (based on hit dice) + 1 from an expensive magic item +1 from a Feat (for that soulmeld only) + 4 from Essentia Surge + 1 from Incarnum Training (unless I'm misreading it, which is distinctly possible). Although it starts out fairly low and with limited uses, towards the middle/end of your progression it skyrockets and can basically be used in every combat, end eventually translates into an essentia capacity of 11, which gives you Spell Resistance of 49, which is 100% effective against a 28th level caster.

I could repeat this example with other Soulborn soulmelds which provide Damage Reduction, Save bonuses, Non-Detection, retributive Fire damage, Strength check bonuses, a Necrocarnum Zombie, bonuses to hit and damage, multiple Deflect Arrow uses per turn, and so on. But I think you get the point. The basic math behind soulmelds is actually quite balanced (albeit a bit complicated). Bringing the Soulborn on nearly on par with the Incarnate or Totemist in terms of essentia capacity is fine (although it should always be limited to Soulborn soulmelds, or even more limited then that. After all, the 3/4 BAB Totemist has his bonus essentia capacity limited to soulmelds bound to his Totem chakra). Pushing it beyond that breaks the math.

Amnoriath
2012-03-01, 11:05 AM
Welcome to the forum! It's good to see more interest in Magic of Incarnum in particular, which is a difficult but rewarding rule set.

Anywho, due to my lazyness and poor eyesight, it's difficult for me to read your revision. You may wish to look at my Soulborn fixes here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441). (They take totally different approaches to the same issue). You can just quote my original post, and then change the numbers and descriptions as you see fit. (Though obviously you shouldn't copy the content of any class abilities I've written, because that's plagiarism/rude).

Also, the Essentia Surge and Incarnum Training abilities are a bit confusing, and quite breakable. Essentia capacity is extremely powerful. For example, the Spellward Shirt (an Incarnate and Soulborn soulmeld) gives you Spell Resistance of 5 + (4*essentia invested). Base essentia capacity is 1-4 (based on hit dice) + 1 from an expensive magic item +1 from a Feat (for that soulmeld only) +2 from Incarnate class abilities (at 3rd and 15th levels). That's a maximum of 8 for an Incarnate (or 6 for anyone else), and will generally be 1-4 if you do not invest in the magic item and Feat. That translates into a maximum Spell Resistance of 37 for the Incarnate (~80% resistance against a 20th level caster) and maximum Spell Resistance of 29 for everyone else (~45% resistance against a 20th level caster), with typical resistance being slightly lower for much of your progression (until you can afford the magic item and feat).

Your class abilities appear to give you an essentia capacity of 1-4 (based on hit dice) + 1 from an expensive magic item +1 from a Feat (for that soulmeld only) + 4 from Essentia Surge + 1 from Incarnum Training (unless I'm misreading it, which is distinctly possible). Although it starts out fairly low and with limited uses, towards the middle/end of your progression it skyrockets and can basically be used in every combat, end eventually translates into an essentia capacity of 11, which gives you Spell Resistance of 49, which is 100% effective against a 28th level caster.

I could repeat this example with other Soulborn soulmelds which provide Damage Reduction, Save bonuses, Non-Detection, retributive Fire damage, Strength check bonuses, a Necrocarnum Zombie, bonuses to hit and damage, multiple Deflect Arrow uses per turn, and so on. But I think you get the point. The basic math behind soulmelds is actually quite balanced (albeit a bit complicated). Bringing the Soulborn on nearly on par with the Incarnate or Totemist in terms of essentia capacity is fine (although it should always be limited to Soulborn soulmelds, or even more limited then that. After all, the 3/4 BAB Totemist has his bonus essentia capacity limited to soulmelds bound to his Totem chakra). Pushing it beyond that breaks the math.

I understand it is very powerful, but this is why I am revamping it. I am going to make a new set of soulmelds for this Soulborn while shoving others out such as Spellward Shirt and others you mentioned. A modification to me just wasn't enough as it didn't have enough distinction between the other two and few different things can be done to modify meldshaping than what was given while reconciling full BAB and increased hit die. I always felt they needed to have a distinction rather than being the idiot brother of the Incarnate. I also know that they could get one through shape soulmeld but a some of the really good ones still are based off of meldshaper level in which aside from the selected paradigm are still half. There are still a few of note but he would be stuck with it and like a rage is used for the encounter.
So, instead this is a combat oriented class more similar to a fighter. The soulmelds will be broke down into three lists based upon the paradigms mentioned. Each list will have its own set of abilities while they also must give up one other list entirely. Vanguards will have abilities that lockdown and ward enemies while possibly ablating and avoiding damage. Daredevils will have abilities similar to skill tricks making them good skirmish fighters and finesse fighters even in the roughest of battlefields or situations. Juggernauts are strength focused that make the most out of single attacks as well being able to ignore debilitating effects while shoving there weight around. In each soulmeld they would have a side ability based upon soulborn level that only can be obtained if the descriptor matched the paradigm. Generally though they need to have certain weapon types and/or armor set ups to make use of them and the essentia based skill bonuses are situational so for essentia they generally pump up incarnum feats.

Amnoriath
2012-03-01, 11:36 AM
As for the surge what happens during is that the invested essentia unlike normal investment is locked in for the duration. Then whenever it ends or they choose to end all the points invested returns to the pool. It is a mechanic to bypass rules of incarnum feats but also makes the character decide how much essentia they want to keep fluid for other abilities. The twin surge was a way to scale with the other classes with them having double bind, rebinding, and reshaping as well as the fact that Soulborns don't get a bind that doesn't occupy anything. It basically mirrors investment of one of the surged recepticles to the other.
Incarnum training does not apply to soulmelds only feats, class, and racial abilities. It basically modifies the ability as if invested with one point of essentia without actually investing. It only applies once to an ability to a total of four for the Soulborn. It could be removed but I wanted something to be outside of the surge.
I made these abilities to give them a significantly different specialty while not encroaching to closely on the increased progression of the other two.

Amnoriath
2012-03-01, 02:57 PM
I know it is a bit more complicated but I do think it does offer something in which Incarnum never really managed to offer before while still letting the other two shine in what they do. I will try to get the lists done with in the next couple of days.

Bonzai
2012-03-01, 11:21 PM
As I mentioned in your other post, I believe that the Soulborn is pretty well balanced. If you were to take a core only Paladin and compare them to a Soulborn, they would match up reasonably close (leaving the mount out of the equasion). The main issue is that the Paladin has had so much more support.

That said, having played one, I find their in-ability to swap out melds pre-epic is their biggest handicap. Allowing rapid meld shaping pre-epic, or even a lesser version that takes 10 minutes to perform would be a HUGE improvement.