Wish on THESE Fireworks! (PF Gunslinger Feat, PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

Cold Blood [Grit]
Prerequisites: Wis 17, BAB +9, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Any Firearm), Weapon Focus (Any Firearm), Extra Grit, Grit class feature
Benefit: Your deep understanding of firearm-based combat allows you to deliver a devastating barrage of bullets against your enemy. As a full-round action, you may expend 5 grit points to make 10 ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus against a single target within range (or 5 ranged attacks with both firearms, if you are wielding a one-handed firearm in each hand). The firearm(s) you shoot with must be one with which you have the Weapon Focus feat. You only misfire with this attack if all of your shots misfire.

Each attack deals only half the amount of damage, but it automatically pushes the creature 5' back (per successful attack), or, if the creature is airborn or is at a higher elevation than you, pushes the creature 10' higher into the air (per successful attack).

A creature you knock back must make a Reflex save (DC 10+1/5' you pushed him back+your Dexterity modifier) or fall prone.

A creature you knock into the air begins falling immediately after your last shot, unless it has a natural or magical fly speed. If it has a natural fly speed, it may make a Reflex save (DC 10+1/5' you pushed it up+your Dexterity modifier). A successful save means the creature regains its balance and stays aloft at its new height, failure means the creature begins to fall. A creature with a fly speed of poor or clumsy takes a -4 penalty to its saving throw.

A creature with a magical fly speed must make a Fly check (DC 30+1/5' you pushed it into the air) or begin falling.

[Cieyrin]

Kind of a weird set of requirements, since Gunslingers (the most likely to pick this up) can't pick it till 11th, where it has to fight against Signature Deed, which is really hard to turn down if you went straight Gunslinger. For that, I'd probably lower the BAB to +9. PF still follows the odd stat thing to give them worth as well, recommending to me you boost to 21. It also screws over Mysterious Strangers, since from all I can see, the Wis requirement is just there for the Grit cost. Speaking of grit, since the feat requires Grit, it should be a Grit feat.

As for the feat itself, it's in the vein of Twin Shot Knockdown or Targetting, though the grit cost is kinda ridiculous, as, except for the variable deeds, the most Deeds cost is 2 grit for the most part. Compare to 7th and 11th level deeds, is it as versatile as Targeting? Is it as damaging as Bleeding Wound? I'm leaning towards no, as, unlike Dead Shot, you're likely to misfire before you finish, given it doesn't have a clause where it misfires only if all shots misfire.

I also find it likely that you'll probably kill or seriously maim your target if you don't misfire, even at half damage, as (10d8+120)/2 still averages to 82.5 damage, for a typical 9th to 11th Gunslinger build that might pursue this feat. Also the fact that each shot pushing it back is forcing it out of penetration range, which will seriously impact your accuracy. Actually, now that I think on it, I'd think I'd see more musket wielders pursuing this, so (10d12+120)/2 averaging to 92.5 or a double hackbut for (20d12+120)/2 averaging 125 damage. I don't think Gunslingers need such a damage spike, as it's likely to cause DM headaches as you waste a story arch's BBEG in one barrage. Sure, it looks cool, but there's some serious refining and balancing that needs to be done as of yet.

[NeoSeraphi]

Kind of a weird set of requirements, since Gunslingers (the most likely to pick this up) can't pick it till 11th, where it has to fight against Signature Deed, which is really hard to turn down if you went straight Gunslinger. For that, I'd probably lower the BAB to +9. PF still follows the odd stat thing to give them worth as well, recommending to me you boost to 21. It also screws over Mysterious Strangers, since from all I can see, the Wis requirement is just there for the Grit cost. Speaking of grit, since the feat requires Grit, it should be a Grit feat.

Lowering the BAB prerequisite to +9, raising Wis to 21, and making it a Grit feat.



As for the feat itself, it's in the vein of Twin Shot Knockdown or Targetting, though the grit cost is kinda ridiculous, as, except for the variable deeds, the most Deeds cost is 2 grit for the most part. Compare to 7th and 11th level deeds, is it as versatile as Targeting? Is it as damaging as Bleeding Wound? I'm leaning towards no, as, unlike Dead Shot, you're likely to misfire before you finish, given it doesn't have a clause where it misfires only if all shots misfire.


Adding a clause where you only misfire if all shots misfire.



I also find it likely that you'll probably kill or seriously maim your target if you don't misfire, even at half damage, as (10d8+120)/2 still averages to 82.5 damage, for a typical 9th to 11th Gunslinger build that might pursue this feat. Also the fact that each shot pushing it back is forcing it out of penetration range, which will seriously impact your accuracy. Actually, now that I think on it, I'd think I'd see more musket wielders pursuing this, so (10d12+120)/2 averaging to 92.5 or a double hackbut for (20d12+120)/2 averaging 125 damage. I don't think Gunslingers need such a damage spike, as it's likely to cause DM headaches as you waste a story arch's BBEG in one barrage. Sure, it looks cool, but there's some serious refining and balancing that needs to be done as of yet.

That's the point of the feat though. It's to give you some powerful damage in a rapidfire shot once per day. And even though you admit you'll probably end up having a hard time hitting with the pushback on each shot, you're calculating damage as if every shot hits. So...:smallconfused: I think you're being a little unfair with your judgment here.

Playing a gunslinger is all about being a total badass, and having a volley attack where you just unload a clip into your target is really nice. The limit to once per day, along with the heavy prerequisites and the grit cost will consume a lot of your resources to use it, which both rewards you for roleplaying (since if you're using the Daring Act grit rules, that's pretty much the easiest way to get your grit back) and also lets you have a cinematic, powerful attack.

Still, though, if you think it's too much (even though it has a really high ability score prerequisite and consumes all your grit if you use it, once per day), then how would you suggest toning it down?

[Cieyrin]

That's the point of the feat though. It's to give you some powerful damage in a rapidfire shot once per day. And even though you admit you'll probably end up having a hard time hitting with the pushback on each shot, you're calculating damage as if every shot hits. So...:smallconfused: I think you're being a little unfair with your judgment here.

Playing a gunslinger is all about being a total badass, and having a volley attack where you just unload a clip into your target is really nice. The limit to once per day, along with the heavy prerequisites and the grit cost will consume a lot of your resources to use it, which both rewards you for roleplaying (since if you're using the Daring Act grit rules, that's pretty much the easiest way to get your grit back) and also lets you have a cinematic, powerful attack.

Still, though, if you think it's too much (even though it has a really high ability score prerequisite and consumes all your grit if you use it, once per day), then how would you suggest toning it down?

Perhaps my post was a bit skewed, as I got a bit stream of consciousness in there.

For the cinematic bit and clip, the problem is a) Gunslingers are already able to do that quite adequately without having to rush their Grit stat. A base pistol wielding gunslinger can get down to a free reload and Rapid Shot by 6th for a round of fanning the hammer or dual-wield a pair of double-barreled pistols to unload a barrage. That's pretty damn cinematic, all without having to use Grit. For problem b), most games don't have firearms with clips, as you only see six shooting revolvers in era 4 or 5. The rest of them are muzzle loaders, which have to deal with paper cartridges to get going, with the exception of pepperboxes, which you can't fully dual wield without growing an extra arm.

If I were to make it reasonable, I'd probably have it scale with BAB, like an accelerated Dead Shot, which, now that I think about it, it really rather resembles. Have it let you cut loose a barrage of bullets, something like 2 + an additional bullet for every 4 points of BAB, like Deadly Aim, Power Attack, etc. do. That way, you start with a 4 bullet barrage and build up to 7. If you go the extra distance to dual wield, add an extra bullet and divide between guns as you see fit, since you're sucking up extra feats and expense for that privilege and suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties unlike the single firearm wielder. Make it cost 1-2 grit +1 for every 4 points of BAB, so it starts at 3-4 grit and, by the time you've picked up Wis or Cha boosts and Greater Lucky firearms, you're able to absorb the increasing cost.

Speaking of Wis and Cha, the only reason I see you having the cost that high is to have a large enough Grit pool, which you can increase via Lucky Firearms or Extra Grit (which isn't a bad choice for a Gunslinger, anyways, especially the bonus feats). I'd knock the grit stat down to 17-19, which is still high for Gunslingers when they want to boost their Dex for accuracy and damage, and allow you the choice of which stat needs it that high, as I don't see a reason to punish Mysterious Strangers or Holy Guns for having a different Grit stat. Maybe require Extra Grit as an additional prereq, which puts it fairly in line with other Grit feats generally requiring 2 feats, as well as using it as part of understanding both sides being able to achieve the Deed, knowing your weapon well enough to push past its normal reload requirements (Weapon Focus) and having enough mental focus and chutpah to confidentally pull the act off (Extra Grit).

If you really want some more critique on it, I'd poke grarrrg, since he's the originator of the Gundolon, which does something very similar by RAW with Leaping Shot.

[NeoSeraphi]

Perhaps my post was a bit skewed, as I got a bit stream of consciousness in there.

For the cinematic bit and clip, the problem is a) Gunslingers are already able to do that quite adequately without having to rush their Grit stat. A base pistol wielding gunslinger can get down to a free reload and Rapid Shot by 6th for a round of fanning the hammer or dual-wield a pair of double-barreled pistols to unload a barrage. That's pretty damn cinematic, all without having to use Grit. For problem b), most games don't have firearms with clips, as you only see six shooting revolvers in era 4 or 5. The rest of them are muzzle loaders, which have to deal with paper cartridges to get going, with the exception of pepperboxes, which you can't fully dual wield without growing an extra arm.

If I were to make it reasonable, I'd probably have it scale with BAB, like an accelerated Dead Shot, which, now that I think about it, it really rather resembles. Have it let you cut loose a barrage of bullets, something like 2 + an additional bullet for every 4 points of BAB, like Deadly Aim, Power Attack, etc. do. That way, you start with a 4 bullet barrage and build up to 7. If you go the extra distance to dual wield, add an extra bullet and divide between guns as you see fit, since you're sucking up extra feats and expense for that privilege and suffer the two-weapon fighting penalties unlike the single firearm wielder. Make it cost 1-2 grit +1 for every 4 points of BAB, so it starts at 3-4 grit and, by the time you've picked up Wis or Cha boosts and Greater Lucky firearms, you're able to absorb the increasing cost.


That doesn't sound like it's worth the 1/day limitation at all. I really don't think you and I agree on how much feat investments should be worth. I think feats should be more powerful than they already are, and I think that if you get a once per day ability it should be more powerful than a spell of equal level, since spellcasters generally get 2-3 daily slots of that spell at that level. So I feel like this feat should be more powerful than a 5th level DD spell, such as slay living, which deals an average of 51 damage at level 9, and it is (though generally not as powerful as two castings of slay living, so I feel it's pretty balanced)



Speaking of Wis and Cha, the only reason I see you having the cost that high is to have a large enough Grit pool, which you can increase via Lucky Firearms or Extra Grit (which isn't a bad choice for a Gunslinger, anyways, especially the bonus feats). I'd knock the grit stat down to 17-19, which is still high for Gunslingers when they want to boost their Dex for accuracy and damage, and allow you the choice of which stat needs it that high, as I don't see a reason to punish Mysterious Strangers or Holy Guns for having a different Grit stat. Maybe require Extra Grit as an additional prereq, which puts it fairly in line with other Grit feats generally requiring 2 feats, as well as using it as part of understanding both sides being able to achieve the Deed, knowing your weapon well enough to push past its normal reload requirements (Weapon Focus) and having enough mental focus and chutpah to confidentally pull the act off (Extra Grit).


Fair point, though I see less reason to weaken the feat if I'm going to add another feat prerequisite to the mix. Alright, I'll lower the Wis prereq to 17 and add Extra Grit.

[Cieyrin]

I'm just not a fan of daily abilities, especially given deeds already have a limit delineated by your Grit pool. Grit regeneration is touchy at best, so the chances that you'll completely refill your pool to get off another Cold Blooded Deed, especially the way I mentioned having it scale with BAB, makes it not really a problem, as you may see it twice in a day if you just limit by Grit cost, 3 times tops. I mean, what purpose does the 1/day serve when you're already expending a good chunk of your grit as well?

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm just not a fan of daily abilities, especially given deeds already have a limit delineated by your Grit pool. Grit regeneration is touchy at best, so the chances that you'll completely refill your pool to get off another Cold Blooded Deed, especially the way I mentioned having it scale with BAB, makes it not really a problem, as you may see it twice in a day if you just limit by Grit cost, 3 times tops. I mean, what purpose does the 1/day serve when you're already expending a good chunk of your grit as well?

The purpose is to make it special and unique so that you actually have to think about when you use it. Not only are you consuming a large chunk of Grit, but you also can't use it again for the rest of the day. It gives you the option of dealing pretty significant damage, but unlike a sorcerer, you really can't just nova every combat. Meanwhile, it has a nice secondary benefit of actually letting you get something out of higher level play when the casters start demanding 15 minute work days, since you have an ability on recharge too.

Taking it down to what you suggested makes it much weaker, but usable more often. Basically, it replaces your full attack routine, when you can afford it. In that respect it becomes similar to a breath weapon, you have a small cooldown time (Especially if you're using Daring Acts), and after you charge back up, you let loose again. That's not what I was going for. I was going for "Last stand, backed into a corner, all or nothing final attack" kind of feeling, with the power and the cost to back it up.

[Cieyrin]

The purpose is to make it special and unique so that you actually have to think about when you use it. Not only are you consuming a large chunk of Grit, but you also can't use it again for the rest of the day. It gives you the option of dealing pretty significant damage, but unlike a sorcerer, you really can't just nova every combat. Meanwhile, it has a nice secondary benefit of actually letting you get something out of higher level play when the casters start demanding 15 minute work days, since you have an ability on recharge too.

Taking it down to what you suggested makes it much weaker, but usable more often. Basically, it replaces your full attack routine, when you can afford it. In that respect it becomes similar to a breath weapon, you have a small cooldown time (Especially if you're using Daring Acts), and after you charge back up, you let loose again. That's not what I was going for. I was going for "Last stand, backed into a corner, all or nothing final attack" kind of feeling, with the power and the cost to back it up.

That's part of the appeal of Gunslingers and other martial types, though, that they don't have to give in to the 15 minute work day and that their limited resource is a renewable one, which sets them apart from practically every other PF class. That's what I'm saying, just going by the Grit cost gives it a natural limiter. It doesn't need a daily limiter, the Grit cost already serves that purpose, especially if you leave it at 5 Grit per use.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's part of the appeal of Gunslingers and other martial types, though, that they don't have to give in to the 15 minute work day and that their limited resource is a renewable one, which sets them apart from practically every other PF class. That's what I'm saying, just going by the Grit cost gives it a natural limiter. It doesn't need a daily limiter, the Grit cost already serves that purpose, especially if you leave it at 5 Grit per use.

Alright then, I'll remove the daily limit.