Trissociate [3.5 Base Class] (PEACH)

[JeminiZero]

To counter increased disruption from stealing feats and maneuvers, could not stealing them just be harder, or with a shorter duration? I might misunderstand the premise, but it seems fixable.
As an offensive ability, steal skill right now is inconvenient, but not crippling. You impose a -2 penalty (-5 if you took both feats). The rogue who maxed tumble can still attempt to tumble, although he more likely to attract an AoO along the way. The Warblade with Moment of Perfect Mind still has a concentration score higher than his poor will save, although perhaps not as high as he used to have.

This is just as an offensive ability, steal feat also has a whole lot of utility:

allow the spellthief to borrow the skills of another character to succeed on a check...

Steal Feat on the other hand is crippling. Like I mentioned, take Power Attack from a warrior, and his damage output drops by half or more. Even if you limit it to just 1 round, because the Spellthief can attack every round, he can still keep the warrior from being able to power attack. Or prevent the enemy rogue from using his two weapon fighting tree.

It gets especially bad if you let him steal multiple feats/maneuvers per round, especially if the Spellthief also has other Associations that grants additional attacks (like say the 2 tentacles from Half-Farspawn). Theoretically, he could leave a Warblade of the same level with NO maneuvers left. Even if you treat these stolen maneuvers as just expended, the Warblade still has to spend his next turn to recover them... Then the Spellthief steals all of them again during his turn.


As for feats, it might be a bit more complicated than that... I mean a round is too short to really give the spellthief anything to work with... Anything greater than a turn, will be so debilitating to a fighter as to hinder it significantly... So if feats were to be included, I am beginning to think that the spell-thief wouldnt steal the feat just be able to mimic it for a number of rounds maybe 5 at max.
Mimicking feats certainly seems like the best way to go.

*****

As for Maneuvers, instead of stealing them outright, I think it would work best to create a series of feats to let Martial Adepts in general (including the Sublime Associations) to copy maneuvers. Basically, a Martial Artist who learns by seeing what others do. Maybe something like this:

Lesser Copy Maneuver
Improved Copy Maneuver
Greater Copy Maneuver
Perfect Copy Maneuver
Edit: Discussion moved to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355918).

[qazzquimby]

For feat stealing, rather than stealing a base feat and disqualifying an entire tree, specify that only a feat which is not being used as a prerequisite can be stolen, and the benefits are only granted to the feat-stealer if he has the prerequisite feats.

[Durazno]

Or maybe a stolen feat leaves a ghost that lets them continue to qualify for the things it was a prerequisite for?

[JeminiZero]

Changelog: 9 Jun 2014
-Spellthief: Notes on Psionic adaptation added. Steal Supernatural ability, and Lesser and Improved Steal Skill feats added.
-Knight added

Edit: Sajro has created an online version of the EZ-Trissociate program found here (http://sajro.org/Trissociate/).


For feat stealing, rather than stealing a base feat and disqualifying an entire tree, specify that only a feat which is not being used as a prerequisite can be stolen, and the benefits are only granted to the feat-stealer if he has the prerequisite feats.

Instead of depriving a target of his feat entirely, I am inclined to go the same route as Steal Spell Resistance/Steal Skill, and impose a penalty for using that feat. Something like this:

Steal Feat
Edit: Discussion moved to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355918).

[sajro]

Just a quick Note that the online generator has been updated to the 20140611 version now. :)

[qazzquimby]

The online generator is exciting, thank you.
Would people like my Din Chiild converted? The broken numbers were fixed and the class was smoothed out.

[sajro]

The online generator is going to be updated later today as soon as I have the time. :)

[Adam1949]

And like that, I have a Vitalist Association! Please PEACH and such, as I'm not sure how well I did on it.

Vitalist Association

Vitalist Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)
Level Vitalist Powers Known Vitalist Maximum Power Level Known Special
Starter - - Collective, Transfer Wounds (1)
1 1 1 Collective Healing, Medic Powers
2 1 1
3 2 1 Health Sense (Identify), Spirit of Many
4 2 1
5 3 2 Steal Health (Touch), Transfer Wounds (1d6)
6 3 2
7 4 3
8 4 3
9 5 4 Health Sense (Stabilize), Request Aid
10 5 4 Transfer Wounds (2d6)
11 6 5 Steal Health (Ranged)
12 6 5
13 7 6
14 7 6
15 8 7 Collective Range (Unlimited), Health Sense (Treat Poison), Transfer Wounds (3d6)
16 8 7
17 9 8 Steal Life
18 9 8
19 10 9 Collective Range (Planar), Health Sense (Treat Disease), Transfer Wounds (4d6)


Vitalist Association Progression (Based on Trissociate Level)
Level Vitalist Power Points
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 5
5 7
6 9
7 12
8 15
9 18
10 22
11 27
12 32
13 37
14 43
15 49
16 56
17 63
18 70
19 78
20 86


Vitalist Skills: Add Psicraft and Autohypnosis to your Trissociate class skill list. (Note: If using Pathfinder, you instead add Spellcraft and Autohypnosis to you class skill list.)

Vitalist Class Features: You gain Vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist) class features, which works just like a normal Vitalist except as noted here. Your Vitalist class features are gained according to the progression in the table above. Your starter abilities are the ability to form a Collective, and the ability to transfer a single point of damage within the Collective.

Psionics: You gain Wisdom based Manifesting Powers as a Vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist). Your Manifester level is equal to your Trissociate level. Your Power Points available follows your Trissociate level, instead of your Associate level. Hence, at Trissociate level 1, you have a power point pool, and can start taking Psionic feats (even if your Vitalist association is secondary, and you do not know any powers yet). You gain bonus Power Points based on your Wisdom score. However, you only get a quarter of the bonus Power Points, a manifester of your level would normally receive (round down, minimum 0). E.g. Lets say your Wisdom score is 20. At level 20, this gives you access to level 9 Powers. However, for the purposes of determining bonus Power Points, while a Wisdom score of 20 would normally give a manifester 50 bonus Power Points, you only receive a quarter of this amount or 12 bonus Power Points.

Your Powers known however, is still based on your Associate level, and follows the 1st table above. You do not have a method, and hence you cannot naturally select any Method Powers, although these may be acquired by other means (e.g. Expanded Knowledge Feat).

Automatic Mastery Talents
Recover Power Points: You gain the Recover Power Points talent as described above.


EDIT: Aaaaand just for fun here's an Aegis Association, as well. I'd like to point out that, despite the basis being psionic, there is almost no reason that the Aegis couldn't be magical in effect; indeed, unlike the Soulknife Association, the Aegis doesn't even gain Wild Talent! As such, I've included two feats that can be taken along with the Association.

Aegis Association

Aegis Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)
Level Aegis Customization Points Special
Starter 0 Astral Repair
1 1 Form Astral Suit, Craftsman (+1)
2 2
3 3 Damage Reduction 1/-, Invigorating Suit
4 4
5 5 Craftsman (+2), Reconfigure (1/day)
6 6
7 7 Damage Reduction 2/-
8 8
9 9 Craftsman (+3), Reconfigure (2/day)
10 10
11 11 Damage Reduction 3/-
12 12
13 13 Craftsman (+4), Reconfigure (3/day)
14 14
15 15 Cannibalize Suit, Damage Reduction 4/-
16 16
17 17 Craftsman (+5), Reconfigure (4/day)
18 18
19 19 Damage Reduction 5/-, Perfect Merger


Aegis Skills: Add Autohypnosis and Use Psionic Device to your Trissociate class skill list. (Note: If using Pathfinder, replace Use Psionic Device with Use Magic Device.)

Vitalist Class Features: You gain Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis) class features, which works just like a normal Aegis except as noted here. Your Aegis class features are gained according to the progression in the table above. Your starter ability is Astral Repair, allowing you to repair 2 points of damage at-will to any item, as described in the link above. Additionally, you qualify for the following feats:

Psionic Armorsmith
Requirements: Power Point Pool from a Trissociate Association, Reconfigure 1/day
Benefit: You gain the Augment Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Augment-Suit-Su-) class feature of the Aegis, with the change that you may invest 1 power point per 5 levels in the Trissociate class. Otherwise, it works exactly as described in the link.
Special: You may buy this feat with Focus Features.

Mystic Armorsmith
Requirements: Dilettante Point Pool from a Trissociate Association, Reconfigure 1/day
Benefit: You gain the Augment Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Augment-Suit-Su-) class feature of the Aegis, with the change that you use Dilettante Points instead of power points, and that you may invest 1 dilettante point per 5 levels in the Trissociate class. Otherwise, it works exactly as described in the link.
Special: You may buy this feat with Focus Features.

[spikeof2010]

I'd like to request Kellus's Truenamer Fix Classes, as also the homebrew Wordsmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246960-Super-Scribblenauts-Batman!-%283-5-Base-Class%29%28PEACH%29)class and the conceptualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?237509-3-5e-Base-Class-The-Conceptualist-%28PEACH%29)

[JeminiZero]

Incidentally, Psionic-Blooded has been redone. The changes make it easier to augment PLAs now. Take a look at it and let me know if it is understandable, and whether it is too strong or too weak.

For the Vitalist, I was having serious problems trying to backport the power list from Pathfinder to 3.5, I think I might just give up and stick with the Pathfinder list. Because Pathfinder has 0 level Powers (Talents). they should probably start off with that for levels Starter to 2, to match Spellcasters. Also, since they lose their Method, I think they probably need a few more Powers Known.

Vitalist Association Draft v2

Vitalist Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)
Level Vitalist Powers Known Vitalist Maximum Power Level Known Vitalist Transfer Wound Special
Starter - - - Vitalist-Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Knacks-Ps-) (1 Talent Known), Vitalist-Collective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Collective-Su-)
1 - - - Vitalist-Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Knacks-Ps-) (2 Talents Known), Vitalist-Collective Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Collective-Healing-Su-)
2 - - -
3 1 1 +1d6 Vitalist-Medic Powers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Medic-Powers), Vitalist-Health Sense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Health-Sense) (Identify)
4 2 1 +1d6
5 3 2 +1d6 Vitalist-Steal Health (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Steal-Health-Su-) (Touch), Vitalist-Spirit of Many (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Spirit-of-Many-Su-)
6 3 2 +1d6
7 4 3 +2d6 Vitalist-Request Aid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Request-Aid-Su-)
8 5 3 +2d6
9 6 4 +2d6 Vitalist-Steal Health (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Steal-Health-Su-) (Ranged), Vitalist-Health Sense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Health-Sense) (Stabilize)
10 6 4 +2d6
11 7 5 +3d6 Vitalist-Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Expanded-Knowledge)
12 8 5 +3d6
13 9 6 +3d6 Vitalist-Health Sense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Health-Sense) (Treat Poison)
14 9 6 +3d6
15 10 7 +4d6 Vitalist-Steal Life (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Steal-Life-Su-)
16 11 7 +4d6
17 12 8 +4d6 Vitalist-Collective Range (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Collective-Su-) (Unlimited), Vitalist-Health Sense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Health-Sense) (Treat Disease)
18 13 8 +4d6
19 14 9 +5d6 Vitalist-Collective Range (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist#TOC-Collective-Su-) (Planar)


Vitalist Association Progression (Based on Trissociate Level)
Level Vitalist Power Points
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 5
5 7
6 9
7 12
8 15
9 18
10 22
11 27
12 32
13 37
14 43
15 49
16 56
17 63
18 70
19 78
20 86


Vitalist Skills: Add Autohypnosis, Heal, Survival and Spellcraft (Psicraft for 3.5) to your Trissociate class skill list.

Vitalist Class Features: You gain Vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist) class features, which works just like a normal Vitalist except as noted here. Your Vitalist class features are gained according to the progression in the table above.

Psionics: You gain Wisdom based Manifesting Powers as a Vitalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/vitalist). Your Manifester level is equal to your Trissociate level. Your Power Points available follows your Trissociate level, instead of your Associate level. Hence, at Trissociate level 1, you have a Power Point pool, and can start taking Psionic feats. You also gain bonus Power Points based on your Wisdom score. However, you only get a quarter of the bonus Power Points, a manifester of your level would normally receive (round down, minimum 0). E.g. Lets say your Wisdom score is 20. At level 20, this gives you access to level 9 Powers. However, for the purposes of determining bonus Power Points, while a Wisdom score of 20 would normally give a manifester 50 bonus Power Points, you only receive a quarter of this amount or 12 bonus Power Points. Your Powers known however, is still based on your Associate level, and follows the 1st table above. You may only select powers from the Vitalist Power List (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/power-lists/power-list-vitalist). Like a Vitalist, when you recover your daily power points after resting, you may choose to rotate one or more powers you know for new ones which you qualify for.

Automatic Mastery Talents
Recover Vitalist Transfer Wound: As a free action which does not require Mastery Meditation, you may spend Mastery points to recover uses of your Vitalist Transfer Wound ability. You regain 1 use of Transfer Wound for each Mastery point spent. You may not exceed your normal daily maximum.

Recover Power Points: You may recover Power Points. By entering Mastery Meditation and spending however many Mastery points you wish, you may restore 2 Power Points for each Mastery point used. You may not exceed your normal Power Point maximum. You may accelerate the conversion process by spending more Mastery points. As a free action, you may instead recover 1 Power Point for each Mastery point spent, even when you are not in Mastery Meditation. This is a supernatural ability.


For Aegis, considering that the original Aegis has something like 26 Customization points by level 20, having an Association with 19 points strikes me as perhaps a bit too powerful. Also, instead of choosing a feat, I am inclined to just give them Augment Armor, and note that other stuff can be used to fuel Augment Armor

Aegis Association Draft v2

Aegis Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)
Level Aegis Customization Points Aegis Damage Reduction Aegis Reconfigure Aegis Augment Suit Special
Starter - - - - Aegis-Astral Repair (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Astral-Repair-Ps-)
1 1 - - - Aegis-Form Astral Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Form-Astral-Suit-Su-)
2 1 - - -
3 2 1/- 1/day - Aegis-Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Craftsman) (+1)
4 2 1/- 1/day -
5 3 1/- 1/day +1 Aegis-Invigorating Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Invigorating-Suit-Su-)
6 3 1/- 1/day +1
7 4 2/- 2/day +1 Aegis-Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Craftsman) (+2)
8 4 2/- 2/day +1
9 5 2/- 2/day +2 Aegis-Cannibalize Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Cannibalize-Suit-Su-) 1/day
10 5 2/- 2/day +2
11 6 3/- 3/day +2 Aegis-Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Craftsman) (+3)
12 6 3/- 3/day +2
13 7 3/- 3/day +3 Aegis-Cannibalize Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Cannibalize-Suit-Su-) 2/day
14 7 3/- 3/day +3
15 8 4/- 4/day +3 Aegis-Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Craftsman) (+4)
16 8 4/- 4/day +3
17 9 4/- 4/day +4 Aegis-Cannibalize Suit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Cannibalize-Suit-Su-) 3/day
18 9 4/- 4/day +4
19 10 5/- 5/day +4 Aegis-Craftsman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Craftsman) (+5), Aegis-Perfect Merger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis#TOC-Perfect-Merger-Su-)


Aegis Skills: Add Acrobatics (Balance and Tumble for 3.5), Autohypnosis, Spellcraft (Psicraft for 3.5) and Use Magic Device (Use Psionic Device for 3.5) to your Trissociate class skill list.

Aegis Class Features: You gain Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis) class features, which works just like a normal Aegis except as noted here. Your Aegis class features are gained according to the progression in the table above. You may use your Wisdom bonus or your Charisma bonus, in place of your Intelligence bonus (whichever of the 3 is highest) to determine the number of Customization Points you can reassign with your Reconfigure ability, and the duration of your Augment Suit.
Special: Because a Trissociate has a wide variety of class features, your may fuel your Augment Suit class feature with things besides Power Points. You may still use Power Points as per normal (if you have them). But you may also substitute other things for Power Points. Options include:
*Spell Slots: You may sacrifice your Spell Slots to fuel Augment Suit, regardless of whether you are a prepared or spontaneous caster. Each Spell Slot provides Power Points equal to twice its spell slot level (so you may spend a level 1 Spell Slot in place of 2 Power Points). Level 0 Spell Slots provide no Power Points.
*Spell-Like Ability: You may sacrifice a Spell-Like Ability to fuel Augment Suit, provided that Spell-Like Ability has limited uses per day (so you cannot use Invocations for this). Each Spell-Like Ability provides Power Points equal to twice its effective spell level (so you may spend a level 1 Spell-Like Ability in place of 2 Power Points). Level 0 Spell-Like Abilities provide no Power Points.
*Psi-Like Points: You may spend 1 Psi-Like Point in place of 1 Power Point.
*Sublime Points: You may spend 6 Sublime Points in place of 1 Power Point.
*Mastery Points: You may spent 1 Mastery point in place of 1 Power Point.

Additionally you may use more than one power source at once, to fuel Augment Suit. For example, lets say you want to use Augment Suit to give +4 temporary Customization Points. This normally costs 4 Power Points. You could instead spend 2 level 1 Spell Slots. Or you could instead spend a level 1 Spell-Like Ability and 2 Power Points. Or you could spend 18 Sublime Points and 1 Mastery point. Or any other combination you choose, which adds up to 4 Power Points.

Automatic Mastery Talents
Rapid Reshape Astral Suit: Normally a Aegis Associate must spend 8 hours in concentration in order to reassign the Customization Points of his Astral Suit. However he can speed up the process by spending Mastery points. By spending 3 Mastery points, he can reassign 1 Customization Point as a free action (6 Mastery points for 2 Customization Points, etc).


Feel free to comment on them.

[Adam1949]

Well, I definitely like those better than my own! Thanks for improving on them, they're great!

[spikeof2010]

Some thematically cool combos I discovered.

Stalker | Rouge, Eldritch Blast, Half-Fiend(Molydeus)

Hunter | Ranger, Barbarian, Animal Companion

Toughness | Barbarian, Binder, Half Anarchic

Mental | Wizard, Wild Shape, Evolutionist

Also the Skirmisher Trissociation seems inferior to hunter in every way.

[Adam1949]

The Skirmisher is a way to get a Skill-based High-BAB class. Like an improved version of the Factotum, really.

[Mehangel]

Well if you are going to include pathfinder classes, I think that the following would make good additions for Association:

Alchemist - Maybe remove its spellcasting abilities to allow the class to keep some of both its remaining abilities. (Thus Alchemist = Alchemist + Wizard/Sorcerer/Magic Dilitantte/Artificer)

Gunslinger - Looks like it might be doable with its various different abilities.

Witch - If you remove its spellcasting abilty, it can simply be hex every other level with improved and greater hex. (Thus Witch = Witch + Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Spirit Shaman/etc + Animal Companion if you want a familiar)

Summoner - might be doable if you disclude its spellcasting ability and keep only the abilities associated with the Eidolon. The summon monster abilities I-IX could be from Spell-blooded and its spellcasting abilities either from "Magic Dilitantte: Summoner" or else from another spellcasting class such as Wizard or Druid. (Thus Summoner = Summoner + Spell-blooded + Wizard/Druid/Sorcerer/Magic Dilitantte)

Alot of the other classes i saw either were completely made up of thers such as Samurai = Knight + Animal Companion or else had so many abilities that to make them simply 1/4th their power would be complicated or troublesome.

[JeminiZero]

Also the Skirmisher Trissociation seems inferior to hunter in every way.
Whoops! That would be my bad. Skirmisher is supposed to have high BAB, but when listing Focus options, the EZ-Trissociate was displaying the Skirmisher's BAB as medium (although the generated file still correctly shows high BAB).

I have updated the compiler to fix that. Thanks for pointing it out. :smallredface:

[chaos_redefined]

Just throwing it out there... A human trissociate who takes Wild shape as his primary association, and gets alertness and endurance as his feats, can qualify for Master of Many Forms as of level two. (Human Trissociate 1/Master of Many Forms X). Might want to delay that a bit. Or just use the shapeshift variant from PHBII.

[DrunkenMists]

Just throwing it out there... A human trissociate who takes Wild shape as his primary association, and gets alertness and endurance as his feats, can qualify for Master of Many Forms as of level two. (Human Trissociate 1/Master of Many Forms X). Might want to delay that a bit. Or just use the shapeshift variant from PHBII.

I'd make more sense to bake in a qualifier to the Wild shape association that level 5 if required to be able to use it towards that PRC or any other PRC that Requires Wild Shaping.

[Mehangel]

I think that a couple of things that is important to remember is that

1) alot of Dungeon Masters will not allow a player to take a prestige class before 5th level, even if they meet the prerequisites early.

2) You still must meet the HD requirement for the shapes assumed. So a 1 Trissociate/1 MoMF is pretty much just changing his race, I mean I looked over the list of all possible humanoids and it totaled just under 40 different choices... At 1 Trissociate/2 MoMF qualifying for Giants, looking at the list there are no giants listed with less then 4 hitdice...

3) By sacrificing your Trissociate levels and maxing out on Master of Many forms, you also miss out on alot of different abilities... Now I am not saying that someone who uses the 1 Trissociate/X Master of Many forms isnt going to gain power at an exponential rate after level 5, but that at level 1 or 2 Master of Many Forms, it isnt likely to be a complete game breaker.

4) The Trissociate class was made so that you never had to multiclass. Now in the campaign I am running with the Trissociate, you may take prestige classes, but only after level 5. Because lets face it, a Trissociate can quallify for Mystic Theurge or any of its variants by level 4 without the use of feats.

Rather then change the wildshape ability of the Trissociate, I would think that perhaps a note should be placed suggesting that prestige classes should probably have a ECL requirement when using the Trissociate.

[chaos_redefined]

A tag saying ECL 5 requirement for prestige classes will solve a lot of the problems, but strikes me as messy.

But, while it might not be a great choice at level 2, the early access to some of the later features is a cause for concern. For example, level 12 is the earliest as stands for dragon forms, but with this, you can do it at level 11.

As an alternative, maybe meld in some of the master of many forms, and call it this-isn't-really-wildshape-but-it-works-exactly-like-it.

[JeminiZero]

I'd make more sense to bake in a qualifier to the Wild shape association that level 5 if required to be able to use it towards that PRC or any other PRC that Requires Wild Shaping.

Rather then change the wildshape ability of the Trissociate, I would think that perhaps a note should be placed suggesting that prestige classes should probably have a ECL requirement when using the Trissociate.
That does seem like the most straightforward way to fix this. Added.


this-isn't-really-wildshape-but-it-works-exactly-like-it
That somewhat complicates matters significantly. Keeping it as simple Wild Shape, but limiting early PrC access, lets characters still use Wild Shape related feats and items.


Because lets face it, a Trissociate can quallify for Mystic Theurge or any of its variants by level 4 without the use of feats.
While true, keep in mind that Mystic Theurge would advance Associate spellcasting, rather than full blown wizard/archivist casting. So even if you qualify for MT, it still makes sense to stick with Trissociate levels that come with other class features.

[qazzquimby]

The Missingno (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337909-The-Missingno-(No-really-it-s-serious-PEACH))


Level
Special
Exploits
States

Starter
-
-
-

1st
Exploits (least)
1
1


2nd
-
1
1

3rd
LIMBO (highest score)
1
1

4th
-
1
1

5th
Errorsight (1/day)
1
1

6th
-
1
1

7th
Exploits (lesser), LIMBO (2nd highest score)
2
2


8th
-
2
2

9th
LIMBO (3rd highest score)
2
2


10th
-
2
2

11th
Errorsight (2/day)
2
2

12th
-
2
2

13th
Exploits (greater), LIMBO (4th highest score)
3
2

14th
-
3
2

15th
LIMBO (5th highest score)
3
3

16th
-
3
3


17th
Exploits (terminal)
4
3

18th
-
4
3

19th
Errorsight (all around vision), LIMBO (5th highest score)
5
3


I was going to try modifying the Avatar project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?68630-Avatar-d20-Project-Bending-System-and-Bending-Classes-Thread-II) to association form, but I don't know how to restrict them without squashing their checks.


Xenotheurgist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?122103-Xenotheurgy-Far-Realms-magic-system)


Level
Special
Murmurs

Starter
Disturbance
-

1st
Unearthly Will
1


2nd
-
1

3rd
Disturbance, Subverted Insanity 1/day
1

4th
-
1

5th
Disturbance, Lesser Harbringer's Mark
2

6th
-
2

7th
Disturbance, Bonus Feat
2


8th
-
2

9th
Disturbance, Lesser Harbringer's Mark
2


10th
-
2

11th
Disturbance, Harbringer's Mark, Subverted Insanity 2/day
2

12th
-
2

13th
Disurbance, Bonus Feat
3

14th
-
3

15th
Disturbance, Harbringer's Mark
3

16th
-
3


17th
Disturbance, Greater Harbringer's Mark, Subverted Insanity 3/day
3

18th
-
3

19th
Disturbance, Greater Harbringer's Mark, Bonus Feat
4


My Din Child (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354268-The-Din-Child-T3-Raw-Power-Melee-With-Some-Tactical-Cleverness-PEACH-ME&p=17572495#post17572495)


Level
Special
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known

Starter
-
-
-
-

1st
Maneuvers, Unarmed Combat (1d6), Might
2
1
1

2nd
-
2
1
1

3rd
Aspect of Din
3
1
1

4th
-
3
1
1

5th
Magic Hands (+1), Unarmed Combat (2d6)
4
1
2

6th
-
4
1
2

7th
Aspect of Din
5
2
2


8th
-
5
2
2

9th
Magic Hands (+2)
6
2
3

10th
-
6
2
3

11th
Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (3d6)
7
2
3

12th
-
7
2
3

13th
Extreme Ability
8
2
3

14th
-
8
2
3

15th
Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (4d6)
9
3
4

16th
-
9
3
4


17th
Magic Hands (+3)
10
3
4

18th
-
10
3
4

19th
Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (5d6)
11
3
4


Uses the Mightless version at the bottom of the class. Recovers no maneuvers on bringing a creature to half health, and one maneuver when killing a creature.

[Adam1949]

My Din Child (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354268-The-Din-Child-T3-Raw-Power-Melee-With-Some-Tactical-Cleverness-PEACH-ME&p=17572495#post17572495)


Level
Special
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known

Starter
-
-
-
-

1st
Maneuvers, Unarmed Combat (1d6), Might
2
1
1

2nd
-
2
1
1

3rd
Aspect of Din
3
1
1

4th
-
3
1
1

5th
Magic Hands (+1), Unarmed Combat (2d6)
4
1
2

6th
-
4
1
2

7th
Aspect of Din
5
2
2


8th
-
5
2
2

9th
Magic Hands (+2)
6
2
3

10th
-
6
2
3

11th
Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (3d6)
7
2
3

12th
-
7
2
3

13th
Extreme Ability
8
2
3

14th
-
8
2
3

15th
Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (4d6)
9
3
4

16th
-
9
3
4


17th
Magic Hands (+3)
10
3
4

18th
-
10
3
4

19th
Aspect of Din, Unarmed Combat (5d6)
11
3
4


All might point costs are tripled.

I'm not so sure about this one. I would argue that it would not gain any maneuvers (as that is what the Martial Initiator Association is for), but that the other main abilities would be improved to make up for that.

[qazzquimby]

The class was rewritten at public request to be more maneuver-centric :) taking them out would be very hard.
It has 1/3 the maneuver using frequency of the base class, because costs are tripled, but I'm not sure about all balance. Everything that runs off might points becomes significantly less useful, as does everything that runs off maneuvers, but the few that require neither aren't reduced at all. Any ideas how to fix this? I also have a might-pointless version which I'm less fond of but would probably convert easier.

EDIT: I just changed to the might-pointless version to make everything smoother. First post is updated.

[Jormengand]

Ooh, I'm liking this class.

If you're still taking homebrew ones, I'm thinking a Disciple Apparent or Nihilist Association would be pretty awesome.

Mutant Dragon Pyromaniac association, anyone? :smalltongue:

But in all seriousness, this is a cool idea and I could do things for it.

[qazzquimby]

@Jormengand
I am, but I need links to the classes. I can't seem to find either.

@Jemini
Could prcs be adapted into associations? Could you change an association partway through, like traditional multiclassing?



Level
Special


Starter
-


1st
Exaggerated Skills, Least Skill


2nd
-


3rd
Least Skill


4th
-


5th
Skill Focus, Skin of your Teeth


6th
-


7th
Lesser Skill,


8th
-


9th
Lesser Skill


10th
-


11th
Greater Skill, Skill Mastery


12th
-


13th
Greater Skill, Limited Exaggerated Ease (take 12)


14th
-


15th
Skill Focus, Skill Mastery


16th
-


17th
Storied Skill, Limited Greater Exaggerated Ease (take 15)


18th
-


19th
Storied Skill, Limited Legendary Ease (take 18)



Tall Tale Class Features: You gain Tall Tale class features, which works just like a normal Tall Tale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?326799-Tall-Tale-(3-5-Base-Class-Contest-Winner-PEACH)) except while following the association table above even when it would contradict a class feature.

Limited Exaggerated Ease progression: Functions exactly as the unlimited versions in the Tall Tale class, but only apply to skills you have selected with Skill Mastery.

[Jormengand]

@Jormengand
I am, but I need links to the classes. I can't seem to find either.

I was more thinking, "If the actual creator is still adding these, I could make them", rather than "If you're still creating these, you could make those two." Regardless, they're in my sig.

As for PrCs, you should also look in my sig. Yes, yes a PrC probably could be turned into an association. :smalltongue:

EDIT: If someone can find a way of getting rid of the extra column, we have this:

LevelSpecialMomentumStarter-1stCombo (1), finishing move (1)112nd143rdCombo (1)174th225thCombo (2)276th347thFinishing move (2)418th499thCombo (2)5710th6711thCombo (3)7712th8813thFinishing move (3)10014th11215thCombo (3)12516th13817thCombo (4)15318th16819thFinishing move (4)183

Combo (X) and finishing move (X)

At this level, you gain an Xth-level combo or finishing move, as appropriate, from the disciple apparent and veteran superior lists, as appropriate for your level. You may swap these in the same way a disciple apparent does.
Oh, and another one.
LevelSmite ExtremistSpecialStarter-Detect Extremist 1/day, No Aura1st1/encounterDetect Extremist at will2nd1/encounter3rd2/encounterNo Fear4th2/encounter5th3/encounterNull stance: No Accuracy 1/day6th3/encounter7th4/encounterNull stance: No Escape 1/day8th4/encounter9th5/encounterNull stance: No Failure 1/day10th5/encounter11th6/encounterExtra Null Stance12th6/encounter13th7/encounterExtra Null Stance14th7/encounter15th8/encounterExtra Null Stance16th8/encounter17th9/encounterExtra Null Stance18th9/encounter19th10/encounterExtra Null Stance

Nihilist class features
You gain Nihilist class features, which works just like a normal Nihilist except as noted here. Your Nihilist class features are gained according to the progression in the table above.

Extra Null Stance
At the levels shown, you gain the ability to use one of your 1/day null stances once more per day.

[qazzquimby]

Oh, I'd recently made a thread asking what associations I should build, so I read with that in mind.

LevelSpecialMomentumStarter-1stCombo (1), finishing move (1)112nd143rdCombo (1)174th225thCombo (2)276th347thFinishing move (2)418th499thCombo (2)5710th6711thCombo (3)7712th8813thFinishing move (3)10014th11215thCombo (3)12516th13817thCombo (4)15318th16819thFinishing move (4)183

[Jormengand]

Oh, I'd recently made a thread asking what associations I should build, so I read with that in mind.

LevelSpecialMomentumStarter-1stCombo (1), finishing move (1)112nd143rdCombo (1)174th225thCombo (2)276th347thFinishing move (2)418th499thCombo (2)5710th6711thCombo (3)7712th8813thFinishing move (3)10014th11215thCombo (3)12516th13817thCombo (4)15318th16819thFinishing move (4)183

Ah, I see.

Thanks for the table that works. : 3

[qazzquimby]

I just realized this is perfect for theurge classes, with an association in each base class and in the prc.
Are there any pitfalls to watch out for in balancing a theurge prc association? Would I more or less dump another sixth on to each side's advancing abilities while adding any interaction abilities that are appropriate?

[Jormengand]

I just realized this is perfect for theurge classes, with an association in each base class and in the prc.
Are there any pitfalls to watch out for in balancing a theurge prc association? Would I more or less dump another sixth on to each side's advancing abilities while adding any interaction abilities that are appropriate?

Honestly, I'm not sure a theurge association would work, or even be necessary when you can just take the sum of its parts anyway.

[qazzquimby]

There are some very interesting prcs in combining classes that I think deserve more play, especially between two homebrew classes. I made one that combines the owthro evolutionist and swarmlord to that allowed all feature lists and point pools to be combined, and I think the evolutionist has a lot of theurge content. I find it very fun.
Also I might make it a project to rewrite all the material for owthro ozodrin for the remix, but that's not relevant to anything.

[spikeof2010]

Curious, will this ever get a pathfinder update? Or at least have some trisocciations for alchemist and such?

[qazzquimby]

You should make them, its pretty easy.
Also 3.5 = pathfinder, if you want it in a pathfinder game, just change the skills and boost any teeny HD.

[spikeof2010]

And how would go about adding to the EZ generator?

[qazzquimby]

I just make it and whoever updates the generate will add it in eventually.

[spikeof2010]

I don't think the person making it is active, sadly.

[JeminiZero]

Regrettably, I am not sufficiently experienced in Pathfinder to know what needs to change. As mentioned by qazzquimby, a quick glance through this page (]http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/1/differences-between-dd-3-5-and-pathfinder) tells me that they get a HD boost and a skill list change (easy enough), and some class features are changed (Turn Undead replaced by Channel Energy).

If you want, you could write up an Alchemist Association, while I try and figure out how to handle the Homebrew section growing too large (e.g. you notice that XenoAlchemist is spilling over into Sample Trissociate).

Also for those wondering, the EZ-trissociate program can be edited/compiled by any Java editor. Although, I tend to use Eclipse.

[qazzquimby]

Translation to 3.P takes all of 30 seconds when building a character, but it's a pain to write the classes to be directly 3.5 and 3.P compatible as you'd need to write skill lists and things twice. It's also easier to go from 3.5 to pathfinder than the other way around, because 3.5 is simplified to pathfinder, so there's detail loss.

May I recommend getting a new thread with a billion reserve posts? There's a lot of homebrew that should still be added, and several of the existing ones could use class feature tweaks, rather than using the base's features exactly.

[spikeof2010]

Also do you plan on updating the Geneator?

[sajro]

JeminiZero do you have any experience with github?
Because if you have and know how to upload the EZ project that would be amazing, and would enable others than yourself to help adding to the program to expand it.

I am though also currently working on a version that is completely web based (PHP and SQL) but I don't have much time so it is going slowly.

[qazzquimby]

My Ley Siphon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?407419-The-Ley-Siphon-(Battlefield-control-synthesis)&p=19053089)


Level
Special


Starter
-


1st
Draw Ley, Plans, Deploy


2nd
-


3rd
Ley Siphon Feat


4th
-


5th
Ley Siphon Feat x2


6th
-


7th
Ley Siphon Feat


8th
-


9th
Ley Siphon Feat x2


10th
-


11th
Ley Siphon Feat


12th
-


13th
Ley Siphon Feat x2


14th
-


15th
Ley Siphon Feat


16th
-



17th
Ley Siphon Feat x2


18th
-


19th
Ley Siphon Feat



Class features are identical to those in the base class, except:

In Draw Ley (Su):

At any given time, a ley siphon has a base amount of pulse equal to their class level plus their Wisdom mod, though this can be modified.
is replaced with
At any given time, a ley siphon has a base amount of pulse equal to one third their class level plus their Wisdom mod, though this can be modified.

Levels granting "Ley Siphon Feat x2" grant two bonus feats, each selected normally for the Ley Siphon Feat class feature.

[Yasahiro]

We need a Gramarie MK II association. Since the newest one shall never be finished.

Who is with me?!

EDIT: TOO SLOW!

I probably made them too strong or too weak, first attempt at doing something related to Trissociate. You are free to modify it in any way.

Mythos: Kreikiri Association

Kreikiri Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)
Level Kreikiri Mythos Kreikiri Excellencies Special
Starter Bellator-Equipment Mastery I
1 Exceptional Mythos (+1) Bellator (The Kyniteros Mythos, Mythos Known, Broken Excellence,)
2
3 +1
4
5
6
7 Fantastic Mythos (+1)
8
9 +1
10
11
12
13 Legendary Mythos (+1)
14
15 +1
16
17
18
19 Exalted Mythos (+1)


Kreikiri Skills: Add Heal to your Trissociate class skill list.

Kreikiri Class Features: You gain Kreikiri (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391670-3-5-Base-Class-Mythos-quot-Make-us-Whole-Again-quot) class features, which works just like a normal Kreikiri except as noted here. Your Kreikiri class features are gained according to the progression in the table above. Class features which normally rely on Kreikiri levels may instead use your Trissociate level (e.g. for the purposes of calculating saving throw DC). You learn Kreikiri Mythos which you qualify for, and gain access to the next tier of Mythos, as indicated in the 'Kreikiri Mythos' column. You gain Kreikiri Excellencies according to the 'Kreikiri Excellencies' column. You may spend Mythos Points and XP to learn new Mythos and Excellencies.


Gramarie Association

Gramarie Association Progression (Based on Associate Level)


Level
Principles Known
Special


Starter
-
-


1st
1
Baccalaureate Principles, Specialization


2nd
1
-


3rd
1
-


4th
2
-


5th
2
-


6th
2
Spectoconstruction


7th
3
-


8th
3
-


9th
3
-


10th
4
Magisterial Principles


11th
4
Extra Construction


12th
4
Discovery


13th
5
-


14th
5
-


15th
5
Discovery, Second Degree


16th
6
Extra Construction



17th
6
Doctorate Principles


18th
6
Discovery


19th
7
-



Gramarist Skills: Add Forgery, Heal, Survival and Use Magic Device to your Trissociate class skill list.

Grammarist Class Features: You gain Gramarist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15557399&postcount=3) class features, which works just like a normal Gramarist except as noted here. Your Gramarist class features are gained according to the progression in the table above. Class features which normally rely on Gramarist levels may instead use your Trissociate level (e.g. for the purposes of calculating saving throw DC)

[qazzquimby]

I would have it scale up to 5 or 8 principles rather than 10, but everything else looks good.

Please finish mark III. I did ARCD, that's my share, right? Please finish it.

[Yasahiro]

I would have it scale up to 5 or 8 principles rather than 10, but everything else looks good.

Please finish mark III. I did ARCD, that's my share, right? Please finish it.

Fixed the Gramarie Association

[qazzquimby]

The Princess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414734-Princess-%28Base-Class-Challenge-Winner%29) by Zaydos


Level
Special


Starter
Aura of Good, Code of Conduct


1st
Healing Affection, Soft Blows, Friend to Nature, Wild Empathy


2nd
-


3rd
Too Fair to Kill, Least Mystical Song


4th
-


5th
Speak with Animals, 2nd Least Mysical Song


6th
-


7th
Animal Pal, Increased Inspiration, Friend to the Common Man


8th
-


9th
Friend to the Common Man, Beauty Unburnt by Flames, Lesser Mystical Songs, Radiance of Purity


10th
-


11th
Beauty to Great to Tarnish, Kiss that Breaks the Curse, 2nd Lesser Mystical Song


12th
-


13th
Friend to All, Friendly Face


14th
-


15th
Greater Mysical Songs, Increased Inspiration


16th
-


17th
Kiss of Life, 2nd Greater Mystical Song


18th
-


19th
Miraculous Song



Class features are identical to those in the base class, except:

Healing Affection:
Max healing per day reduced to half Charisma modifier per level, from twice Charisma modifier per level.

Too Fair to Kill:
DC reduced to 10 + 1/4 level + Cha mod.

* Mystical Song:
Songs per day are reduced to 1/3 class level. You gain additional songs where listen on the table instead of when you normally would.

Animal Pal:
Your animal friends have their stats calculated as if you were one set of levels lower on the relevant animal friend table.

Increased Inspiration:
You gain the bonus only on the levels on the association table, not 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th.

Beauty to Great to Tarnish:
DC reduced to 10 + 1/4 level + Cha mod.

Kiss that Breaks the Curse:
Reduced to 1 per day.

Kiss of Life:
Creature must have died within 1 round per class level, rather than per 3 class levels.

[Morphic tide]

Xenoalchemist, Swarm Lord and Evolutionist combine to form the most stupidly varied character in the world. Someone try to char-op this insanity, because I can't imagine what it could become. And I may make a character for my name based on this combo. At level 80, for both the Trissociate and the classes themselves.

[qazzquimby]

There are also PRCs theurging each 2 of the 3, I believe. It's also missing ozodrin.

[Morphic tide]

There are also PRCs theurging each 2 of the 3, I believe. It's also missing ozodrin.

Ozodrin would fit the theme better than Xenoachemist, though an Essentia using class that focuses on non-equipment bonuses would synergies with Azure Form, which is an Evolutionist feat that uses Essentia for temporary mutations. If there's a Swarmlord build that allows for mutation swapping, then that would be amazing. Honestly, I think that the Evolutionist, Swarmlord and maybe the Ozodrin should be standardized to all use the same setup of mutation points and mutator levels, if only in an overhaul thread to make them act like they're from a themed splatbook. And let feats for any of them work for all of them. Though this would take a lot of work to make construct and undead themed Ozodrin and Swarmlord abilities.

[Sweetiebot]

Bump.

I am eagerly awaiting the tome of radiance associations

[tsj]

I did not see this class before now and I must admit, it is insanely awesome.

I will study this class carefully in order to be able to use it from now on, hwenever I DM/GM a 3.x game :)

Thank you for this excellent piece of work.

An I think it is very good news to see that this class is still being expanded.

This class is... perfection! :)

I salute you good sir.


---

one suggestion, I could not find the alchemist PF class features in here :) but it might just be me that is not looking hard enough.

---

One question, when using your program, i selected cleric association twice, and it seems the generated html file is flawed.. I get cleric spells twice? but also 2 domains, which was wht I aimed at.... is this intentional and is such a charecter really tier 3 ? or is it lower since it gets many things twice ?

I selected the following...

Mental focus: Cleric, Rebuke Undead, Cleric

[ENDRNL]

I really like this one, just try to put all your updated posts in the Thread itself.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Closing due to thread necromancy. Only the brewer can bump Homebrew threads with new content, guys.