PDA

View Full Version : XP as Real World Experience (or vice versa)



JCarter426
2012-03-03, 10:43 PM
I've got another odd question for you all. With all the jokes about Roy going to fighter college, warblade being a PhD program, sorcerer being an associate's degree, and the two community college interns with crummy classes, it appears there's some connection between the mechanics of class levels and the education system of the OOTS world. So this got me thinking how it would work. I can imagine XP requirements to graduate, as opposed to just credits. But would Roy leave as a level 4 fighter, or level 8? I'm not sure.

And what would be the normal rate of leveling up once you're out of college? The Order has leveled up quite a few times so far; while it's only been a year and a half or so, they are adventurers and they're basically at war, so it's safe to say they're not "normal".

So my question is twofold: How do you think it works in the OOTS world? (Or alternatively how would you have it work in a setting of your choosing?) And how do you think it would work in our world, if we had level 3 pastry chefs and the like?

SilverLeaf167
2012-03-04, 12:16 AM
If the PCs are fateful servants of some deities, XP could be fluffed as some kind of increasing power or blessing given by them.
It could also be that when a creature is killed, it's life force becomes XP and is absorbed by the killers, Digimon style.

JCarter426
2012-03-05, 04:08 PM
Perhaps I should clarify. I don't mean real world justifications for the game mechanics; in OOTS, the game mechanics are as much a part of the world as the laws of physics or magic. It's not like a roleplaying game where the game mechanics are an approximation of how the world works - in OOTS, those mechanics are how the world works. XP is real, they know it exists, they call it XP, and they can measure it. What I was wondering is how the game mechanics would affect the development of society, specifically in cases such as class levels and XP gain.

For example, if magic is real and widespread in any given setting, it's only natural for there to be magic schools where they teach students how to use magic. But in OOTS, levels and XP and challenge ratings all exist, and more importantly the characters know about them. So we end up with fighter colleges and the like. Non-core classes seem to be standard at community colleges if they're viewed as sub par, and PhD programs if they're viewed as stronger than the core classes. And this isn't restricted to universities; Elan's tutelage under Juli Scoundrel was in many ways an acting class that somehow granted him a level of Dashing Swordsman.

So basically I'm looking for a correlation like the ones you mentioned - just in the other direction. :smallsmile:

Coidzor
2012-03-05, 06:43 PM
On the one hand, Inspector Cabanela (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tstZfrt_NN4)would get to be properly badass.

On the other hand, accountants would become badassess as a result of getting really good at math and spot-checking. (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Skills)

On the third hand, Mathematicians would be more like Mathemagicians...

JCarter426
2012-03-07, 06:58 PM
If that's true, Kilkil is most definitely overqualified, even if he only has Expert levels.

Actual three-handed mathematicians would be pretty scary, too. :smalltongue:

Rorrik
2012-03-07, 07:18 PM
If my efforts to get a job are any indication, after 3 years in college I'm a level 0 electrical engineer and when I graduate I'll be level 1. From there work experience and skill will determine how I level up. Hopefully a master's degree is a new level in some uber-prestige class or at least a highly useful feat.

The point I'm trying to make, is in real life it seems like real world experience is king and the education is just a precursor to get into your "class" of choice.

Mike_G
2012-03-07, 09:13 PM
I've got another odd question for you all. With all the jokes about Roy going to fighter college, warblade being a PhD program, sorcerer being an associate's degree, and the two community college interns with crummy classes, it appears there's some connection between the mechanics of class levels and the education system of the OOTS world. So this got me thinking how it would work. I can imagine XP requirements to graduate, as opposed to just credits. But would Roy leave as a level 4 fighter, or level 8? I'm not sure.

And what would be the normal rate of leveling up once you're out of college? The Order has leveled up quite a few times so far; while it's only been a year and a half or so, they are adventurers and they're basically at war, so it's safe to say they're not "normal".

So my question is twofold: How do you think it works in the OOTS world? (Or alternatively how would you have it work in a setting of your choosing?) And how do you think it would work in our world, if we had level 3 pastry chefs and the like?

In The Origin of the PCs V points out just how silly it is that killing goblins makes him better at spellcasting or Haley better at sneaking and trapfinding, when logically, studying should be the best way to improve.

So, in the OOTS world, you level by shanking monsters, just like D&D. School is a waste of time. It gtes you to your first class level or so.

So an active adventurer levels quickly. (So do their nemeses, like Haley's archenemy, Crystal, IIRC) Characters in roles where they don't often adveneture would level very very slowly.

To make the real world analogy, school would get your level 1 Expert (military Basic training would get you Warrior 1.) Then you would gain XP by overcoming challenges.

If your level 1 Expert (Pastry Chef) takes an easy job in a slow bakery where all he does is bake 1/4 CR cupcakes for the occaisional kids party, he'll level very slowly. If he takes a job a at wildly busy restaurant where he is making CR 4 or 5 desserts, with complex ingredients, and flaming alcohol, and doing so under pressure and with minimal help or poor equipment, he'll level very fast, gaining mid levels in a year or so before taking on the CR 10 quest of openning his own five star bakery.

I've seen it as a paramedic. You work for years in a slow system taking grandma to dialysis and you don't ever really get good. Six months humping emergencies in a busy gang and drug filled urban service and you are a seasoned veteran.

Libertad
2012-03-07, 11:50 PM
For what it's worth, characters in 1st Edition AD&D had in-game titles that they gained by level, so guys would refer to your Cleric as a High Priest by the time you got to 9th level or so. Higher-level fighters also got a keep and a stable of loyal minions.

So in a way, there's a kind of experience requirement for characters to get advanced rank and status in 1st Edition.

Rorrik
2012-03-08, 10:39 AM
For what it's worth, characters in 1st Edition AD&D had in-game titles that they gained by level, so guys would refer to your Cleric as a High Priest by the time you got to 9th level or so. Higher-level fighters also got a keep and a stable of loyal minions.

So in a way, there's a kind of experience requirement for characters to get advanced rank and status in 1st Edition.

Wow, I forgot about that. When did those rules get thrown out?

Diamondeye
2012-03-08, 12:15 PM
When 2E came out. They didn't always make sense. For example Magic-users would be Conjurers at level 3 and Enchanters at level 7 and Necromancers at level 10. 1E did have schools of magic, but they didn't have much effect ont he game unless you houseruled in specialization of some kind. It still made it sound a bit silly though, because it seemed like your character was specializing in different types of magic as he leveled.

JCarter426
2012-03-08, 05:31 PM
1st Edition didn't even have NPC classes, either - so in general, 3.5 seems like a better foundation for this aspect.

If my efforts to get a job are any indication, after 3 years in college I'm a level 0 electrical engineer and when I graduate I'll be level 1. From there work experience and skill will determine how I level up. Hopefully a master's degree is a new level in some uber-prestige class or at least a highly useful feat.

The point I'm trying to make, is in real life it seems like real world experience is king and the education is just a precursor to get into your "class" of choice.
Eh, I'm not so sure. You still have all this knowledge about the field that someone with a few levels wouldn't, don't you? Do you not know a lot more now than when you started? And theoretically, you'd be able to complete a task that the general population couldn't. That says to me you've got a few levels already... you just aren't satisfied with your current wealth by level.

In The Origin of the PCs V points out just how silly it is that killing goblins makes him better at spellcasting or Haley better at sneaking and trapfinding, when logically, studying should be the best way to improve.

So, in the OOTS world, you level by shanking monsters, just like D&D. School is a waste of time. It gtes you to your first class level or so.
Well, you can get XP other ways, but the killing of goblins does seem to be the quickest and most cost effective. However, that doesn't mean school is a waste of time; if that were true, the schools wouldn't exist. Er... actually, I take that back. :smallamused:

But seriously, the OOTS schools probably exist to offer you high challenge rating encounters in a (reasonably) safe environment. So I don't think the XP gain would be a problem.

So an active adventurer levels quickly. (So do their nemeses, like Haley's archenemy, Crystal, IIRC) Characters in roles where they don't often adveneture would level very very slowly.

To make the real world analogy, school would get your level 1 Expert (military Basic training would get you Warrior 1.) Then you would gain XP by overcoming challenges.

If your level 1 Expert (Pastry Chef) takes an easy job in a slow bakery where all he does is bake 1/4 CR cupcakes for the occaisional kids party, he'll level very slowly. If he takes a job a at wildly busy restaurant where he is making CR 4 or 5 desserts, with complex ingredients, and flaming alcohol, and doing so under pressure and with minimal help or poor equipment, he'll level very fast, gaining mid levels in a year or so before taking on the CR 10 quest of openning his own five star bakery.

I've seen it as a paramedic. You work for years in a slow system taking grandma to dialysis and you don't ever really get good. Six months humping emergencies in a busy gang and drug filled urban service and you are a seasoned veteran.
This would make sense, and would explain why 99% of the population is low level. But I still think you'd leave an OOTS college as level 4 at the least (1 level per year, assuming the standard 4 year college), and possibly as high as 8 (1 level per semester, assuming the standard two semesters per year). Remember, Thog has two Fighter levels, but he dropped out of fighter college (by my calculations, either halfway through or at the end of the first year). And again, a senior will know a lot more than a freshman, so that does suggest you're constantly gaining levels.

Mike_G
2012-03-08, 05:51 PM
I'd have you enter school as a Commoner 1, and take the duration to gain the class features, feats, etc of a PC class. Going by the RAW, challenges should have a chance of you being killed, and school generally wants the next semester's tuition out of you, so that would mean an awful lot of very safe "encounters" to add up to anything.

As far as real world stuff, a basic degree in your field gets you about the respect of a level 1 expert. You won't command respect or good pay or whatever right out of college or trade school. You need to gte real world experience to be the guy people look to. You have the training, but not the experience.

In D&D terms a 4th level fighter is pretty tough compared to average humans and humanoids. He should be able to trash a squad of mooks without breaking a sweat. That isn't a "just graduated West Point" guy. That's a "Just finished a tour in Afghanistan" kind of guy.

Rorrik
2012-03-08, 07:08 PM
I'd have you enter school as a Commoner 1, and take the duration to gain the class features, feats, etc of a PC class. Going by the RAW, challenges should have a chance of you being killed, and school generally wants the next semester's tuition out of you, so that would mean an awful lot of very safe "encounters" to add up to anything.

As far as real world stuff, a basic degree in your field gets you about the respect of a level 1 expert. You won't command respect or good pay or whatever right out of college or trade school. You need to gte real world experience to be the guy people look to. You have the training, but not the experience.

In D&D terms a 4th level fighter is pretty tough compared to average humans and humanoids. He should be able to trash a squad of mooks without breaking a sweat. That isn't a "just graduated West Point" guy. That's a "Just finished a tour in Afghanistan" kind of guy.
I agree here. The schooling seems to me to basically give you access to the skills and feats and things in the first place, but real world experience is necessary to get beyond level 1.

JCarter426
2012-03-08, 08:07 PM
I'd have you enter school as a Commoner 1, and take the duration to gain the class features, feats, etc of a PC class. Going by the RAW, challenges should have a chance of you being killed, and school generally wants the next semester's tuition out of you, so that would mean an awful lot of very safe "encounters" to add up to anything.

As far as real world stuff, a basic degree in your field gets you about the respect of a level 1 expert. You won't command respect or good pay or whatever right out of college or trade school. You need to gte real world experience to be the guy people look to. You have the training, but not the experience.

In D&D terms a 4th level fighter is pretty tough compared to average humans and humanoids. He should be able to trash a squad of mooks without breaking a sweat. That isn't a "just graduated West Point" guy. That's a "Just finished a tour in Afghanistan" kind of guy.

I agree here. The schooling seems to me to basically give you access to the skills and feats and things in the first place, but real world experience is necessary to get beyond level 1.
Maybe it's just a difference in setting, then. Spend 4 years as a medieval knight, even one in training, and you can probably beat up a West Point graduate, I'd wager.

Rorrik
2012-03-08, 09:07 PM
Maybe it's just a difference in setting, then. Spend 4 years as a medieval knight, even one in training, and you can probably beat up a West Point graduate, I'd wager.

I seriously doubt that. Between better health, nutrition and physical fitness and modern combat training, hand to hand the west point graduate throws down a four year trained squire.

JCarter426
2012-03-08, 10:41 PM
Well, better health is arguable... but never mind that. The West Point graduate would probably outsmart the knight with superior tactical knowledge, but tactics aren't everything. As tough as soldiers are today, they aren't living in plate armor and regularly trying to kill each other just for practice. If it came down to hard stats, I'd say the knight wins - because four years as a knight is a higher challenge rating than four years as a cadet.

Maybe it's a bad idea to compare them, though... they could just be very different classes.

Rorrik
2012-03-09, 10:38 AM
Yea, they would be different classes, but more importantly, different time periods. I'm not a soldier, I'm a roleplayer, computer nerd, electrical engineer, but by first edition definitions my military press gives me super human strength. Modern men are generally bigger and stronger than 500 years ago on the simple basis of better training equipment and better diet. I'm fairly confident a modern soldier is far stronger than a medieval knight.

JCarter426
2012-03-10, 08:03 AM
Again, I don't disagree. I don't necessarily believe the opposite, but I wouldn't put it so absolutely as you have. But that's beside the point... I don't want to get into a GI Joe vs King Arthur argument. Besides, that's less important than the age old astronaut vs caveman. :smallbiggrin:

In any case... to reiterate but not restate my point, I think a recent graduate, at least in the OOTS setting, most certainly has more than one class level, and likely has four or more. Thog has two levels of fighter despite being a dropout. Julia and the interns were level 1, despite still being in school. And if extrapolate based on skills alone, a senior is most certainly higher level than a freshmen. At the moment I'm leaning towards one level a year. Due to the low rate of XP gain for non-adventurers, not many would advance beyond this point. Of course, most of the population are still level 1 commoners - but even the higher educated OOTS citizens are very low level in this scenario.

Mike_G
2012-03-10, 01:34 PM
I still say it's overly generous to have new grads with no real world experience at 4th level or higher. That's not crazy high, but it's high with regards to the default world, and the average 1st level NPC class humanoids in it.

CR 4+ cretures are a minority, population wise. I don't think the newbie out of school should be that much better than the classic low level challenges.

Call me old school, but I think the character should embark on his first dungeon, facing life threats, at first level. A handful of Kobolds or Goblins or giant spiders should be scary to a guy who has never faced the chance of death.

There is a vast gulf in power bewteen a level 1 PC and a level 1 commoner. That is what I feel is represented by pre-adventuring training.

AS far as real world examples, new graduates go into most fields perceived by the veterans as knowing very little. Most schooling is theory, not field practice. Yeah, a guy finishing Paramedic school knows more than the guy on day one, but he still needs to be very thoroughly mentored by an experienced medic once he hits the street. Ditto for the guy just out of basic training.

I will just ask any veteran on the fora to try to keep a straight face when asked if they think a new Miltray Academy butter-bar 2nd lieutenant should be represented as a 4th level character. It was not uncommon to hear sergeants ask one another "You're getting a brand new 2nd lieutenant. You got the diaper bag?"

Rorrik
2012-03-10, 02:25 PM
I agree with your assessment, JCarter, in OOTS it seems likely that the school imparts a level each year, or something along those lines. However, if we're discussing how things outght to be, I'm with Mike, the schooling gives you enough to be first level and survive your first encounter, but doesn't give you much more than that.

Mike_G
2012-03-10, 02:44 PM
I can see the argument for school giving a few levels in the OOTSiverse. There are enough bits of evidence to support that theory. I don't think it holds for real world comparison.

However, OOTS characters also level at the speed of plot. See Haley's archenemy, who gained levels as Haley did, just for story purposes.

If the story needs a guy to be thrid level, he will be. Rich has stated that story trumps rules.

JCarter426
2012-03-12, 07:55 AM
That could be another function of the setting. Obviously D&D-esque characters have abilities beyond ours, but perhaps more importantly higher education is widespread today than in ye olden days. Granted, we're not dealing with a completely historical setting here, but it does seem like that's still very much the case. So someone in this setting who goes to college will have a more thorough training, because of how exclusive it all is.

As for whether that's too many levels... well, the interns were first level when they started adventuring. So maybe low level dungeon crawls are all for college credits in OOTS. They still have to get XP somehow, after all.

However, OOTS characters also level at the speed of plot. See Haley's archenemy, who gained levels as Haley did, just for story purposes.

If the story needs a guy to be thrid level, he will be. Rich has stated that story trumps rules.
That's a good point. I guess I'm more interested in how such a system would work outside of its current environment, in which whatever works best depends on what's funniest or what needs to happen for the story. And I don't think either of those are mutually exclusive with the game logistics, considering how well game mechanics are consistently used as part of the story and cases where these rules are broken are by far the exceptions.

Acanous
2012-03-12, 08:22 AM
what I find important to remember in this kind of thought exercize is that Fighter feats, for the most part, do not add abilities to the character.
Anyone can charge. Anyone can Grapple. Anyone can Bull Rush and anyone can two-weapon.
The feats merely remove the penalties. When you're so good at tackling people that they don't see it coming and can't find any opening, that's when you have improved bull rush.

So fighter college gets you to fighter 1(From commoner), experience gets you the rest.