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Leliel
2012-03-05, 09:02 PM
So, I was browsing TV Tropes, when I cam across that odd epic of Science Fiction, the Xeelee Sequence (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/XeeleeSequence) (link leads to TV Tropes, so don't say I didn't warn you).

Since the Xeelee are the kind of race that's fought at the Grand Finale No Kidding of Super Robot animes, I was thinking-the Gurren Lagaan crew beat one hyper-advanced alien already, how would they react to a full race of them with a dismissive and amoral attitude towards all other life?

...Probably by shrugging their shoulders given how pacifistic they normally are, but what if the Xeelee decided, for inscrutable Post-Singularity reasons, decided that the Spiral Technology of the Gurren Lagaan has to go?

The fight takes place after the end of the series, FYI.

So, Logic and Technology versus Passion and Energy. Both gods, both once mortal. Who wins?

Oindoth
2012-03-05, 09:53 PM
The Xeelee were the ones who gave the Culture trouble in a fight, right? Well, I'd say beating them for the Gurren Lagaan crew is impossible. So, naturally, the win.

Forum Explorer
2012-03-05, 10:23 PM
Hard to say since I haven't read the books about the Xeelee but I think Gurren Lagaan. Their power is technically infinite and considering they were throwing around the power of the Big Bang around in that final fight I think they might be more powerful.

MLai
2012-03-06, 02:19 AM
So, I was browsing TV Tropes, when I cam across that odd epic of Science Fiction, the Xeelee Sequence (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/XeeleeSequence) (link leads to TV Tropes, so don't say I didn't warn you).
I have 16 tabs open right now thanks to you... :smalleek:

Xondoure
2012-03-06, 02:27 AM
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/gurennlagann/images/5/5f/TengenToppaGurren-LagannMECH.jpg

This is a question?

dgnslyr
2012-03-06, 02:30 AM
Against someone who, according to TVTropes, can manipulate almost anything in the universe? Maybe. Then again, Spiral Power can overcome nearly any laws of physics or common sense, so it becomes a sort of bizarre unstoppable force vs immovable object scenario, in which case TTGL wins without question.

Trixie
2012-03-06, 02:58 AM
The Xeelee were the ones who gave the Culture trouble in a fight, right? Well, I'd say beating them for the Gurren Lagaan crew is impossible. So, naturally, the win.

No, Xelee are so far beyond the Culture as Culture is ahead of us.

To answer the question from OP - Humanity as a whole developed GL-like powers and declared war on Xeleee. Their response?

"Extremely minor, mildly irritating threat best left alone out of pity".

After all, we're talking about a species capable of producing self-correcting history so that no matter what happens, they win, that started a few thousand years after Big Bang, and which developed every single possible technology to perfection using their infinite time loops to give them literally more time to think that has ever existed. Species whose living places (supermassive black holes) alone makes them immune to most attacks. Bending laws of physics has nothing on that.

Worst case, GL proves to be a major threat, ends up locked in pocket closed time curve or thrown to another universe and Xelee will continue like usual. Or, GL will somehow destroy entire universe, in which case it will be a draw until Xelee make it a win :smalltongue:

Xondoure
2012-03-06, 03:00 AM
No, Xelee are so far beyond the Culture as Culture is ahead of us.

To answer the question from OP - Humanity as a whole developed GL-like powers and declared war on Xeleee. Their response?

"Extremely minor, mildly irritating threat best left alone out of pity".

After all, we're talking about a species capable of producing self-correcting history so that no matter what happens, they win, that started a few thousand years after Big Bang, and which developed every single possible technology to perfection using their infinite time loops to give them literally more time to think that has ever existed. Species whose living places (supermassive black holes) alone makes them immune to most attacks. Bending laws of physics has nothing on that.

Worst case, GL proves to be a major threat, ends up locked in pocket closed time curve or thrown to another universe and Xelee will continue like usual. Or, GL will somehow destroy entire universe, in which case it will be a draw until Xelee make it a win :smalltongue:

You think you can trap us in an infinite time loop? Just who the hell do you think we are?

Tavar
2012-03-06, 03:17 AM
Considering that the Spiral Nemisis seems to essentially be the creation of some kind of Super, universe sized black hole, I'm not sure that the GL crew can win against something like that.

Also, one shouldn't over-estimate Spiral power. The short version is that it does the impossible, but there are a load of caveats and clarifications to that.

HandofShadows
2012-03-06, 03:46 AM
Considering that the Spiral Nemisis seems to essentially be the creation of some kind of Super, universe sized black hole, I'm not sure that the GL crew can win against something like that.


The Spiral Nemisis is the result of overuse of Spiral Power. If you keep your levels of Spiral Power, down you defete the Spiral Nemisis.

Axolotl
2012-03-06, 03:50 AM
The Spiral Nemisis is the result of overuse of Spiral Power. If you keep your levels of Spiral Power, down you defete the Spiral Nemisis.Which is somewhat impossible given that spiral power is all about constant expansion and increasing your power.

Forum Explorer
2012-03-06, 05:38 AM
No, Xelee are so far beyond the Culture as Culture is ahead of us.

To answer the question from OP - Humanity as a whole developed GL-like powers and declared war on Xeleee. Their response?

"Extremely minor, mildly irritating threat best left alone out of pity".

After all, we're talking about a species capable of producing self-correcting history so that no matter what happens, they win, that started a few thousand years after Big Bang, and which developed every single possible technology to perfection using their infinite time loops to give them literally more time to think that has ever existed. Species whose living places (supermassive black holes) alone makes them immune to most attacks. Bending laws of physics has nothing on that.

Worst case, GL proves to be a major threat, ends up locked in pocket closed time curve or thrown to another universe and Xelee will continue like usual. Or, GL will somehow destroy entire universe, in which case it will be a draw until Xelee make it a win :smalltongue:

Spiral Power does a lot more then just bending the laws of physics. It literally rewrites the scenario to a more favorable outcome. The GL crew were trapped in a pocket universe before. Each one specific to that person. They broke out. They also broke into a universe created by their opponent. When being crushed by a sea that became heavier the more Spiral power used they used so much Spiral power they crushed the sea!

Trixie
2012-03-06, 06:09 AM
The problem with Xelee is that they are not really... antagonists. They are more like glass ceiling. Something that is above you but what you can't break. They literally the most powerful civilization ever published in SF.

So, GL Crew manages to get out of one of their pocket universes using contrived method A? Sure, but the next pocket universe they will throw at you will be completely immune to method A. They rewrite scenario to favour them? Timeline corrects itself to make rewrite scenario favour Xelee, not GL.

To be fair, there are 2 methods you could theoretically use to defeat Xelee - one was to literally put every single star in the universe in a stasis so that no new black holes are ever formed and wait a few dozen billion years until all existing black holes evaporate, all while fighting Xelee who suddenly don't like you... Or travel into the past, a hundred years after Big Bang, into environment so hellish that Xelee can't protect against, and somehow stop the timeline correction in the whole universe at once. In short, both require you to do feats beyond what universe spanning race with unlimited time and resources can achieve.

And no, Spiral Power can't do that, if it could whole GL series would have been solved with merest afterthought, not a heavy fight they had on their hands, after al, it can't even bring back one dead person, much less rewrite time to its very beginning.

MLai
2012-03-06, 07:27 AM
I don't think that it's "Spiral Power can't even bring back 1 dead person."
It is that "It would be abuse of Spiral Power to use it for such purpose."

And it's not "Spiral Power can't exceed Spiral Nemesis; SN is the glass ceiling/ end result of SP expansion."
It is that "If you abuse SP, you end up with SN. But if you continue to use SP with righteousness, then the SN is not a ceiling, just the dead end road you skipped over."

SP is about the human hope. Universe-altering physics has no effect on it. All SP has to say is "Oh yeah? Well, infinity PLUS ONE!" As long as its purpose is righteous and the SP user has no internal conflict regarding using it.

And no, you can't use your universe-altering physics to mind-control the SP user, or timeline-alter the SP user, or whatever. That would be too easy. When using SP, the user is immune to "underhanded tactics." The only way to defeat SP is to crush the user's hope. Kind of hard when the user can always say "infinity PLUS TWO!"

Tiki Snakes
2012-03-06, 07:35 AM
I thought spiral nemesis was literally just a theory? The idea that if you continued to evolve along the lines of spiral power you'd all turn into Stars and as stars aren't people, that's bad?

Rather than, like, and kind of actual thing that could be quantified and relevant in such a discussion?
Also yours is the drill that will smash through the glass ceiling.

DigoDragon
2012-03-06, 08:42 AM
Seeing that the Xeelee were the masters of baryonic matter, I'm going to go with them as the winner. And if that's not enough for the win, there is this thought--

The Xeelee did build the "Great Attractor" as a giant gateway to another universe, so worst case is they simply leave the fight rather then be destroyed.

Devonix
2012-03-06, 09:04 AM
Gurren Lagaan as a story just represents human perserverence and the will to improve and overcome. Logic, statistics and such have no place in a discussion about it.

The show's about symbols and belief not fact and as such has really little place in a vs match. The characters in Gurren Lagaan win because that's what the show's about, not because they are more powerful.

A battle between them and the Xeelee would be a battle of philosophies not a battle of technology.

Ursus the Grim
2012-03-06, 09:17 AM
Seeing that the Xeelee were the masters of baryonic matter, I'm going to go with them as the winner. And if that's not enough for the win, there is this thought--

The Xeelee did build the "Great Attractor" as a giant gateway to another universe, so worst case is they simply leave the fight rather then be destroyed.

Re: the spoiler, as previously mentioned the crew of GL have broken through universes and dimensions before.

DiscipleofBob
2012-03-06, 11:09 AM
Re: the spoiler, as previously mentioned the crew of GL have broken through universes and dimensions before.

Yes, but if the Xelee leave, then GL isn't likely to follow. The motivations of the GL team are mostly the survival and independence of the Spiral Races. As long as no one's oppressing them or actively attempting genocide, then GL will chalk it up to a victory.

Selrahc
2012-03-06, 11:30 AM
The problem with Xelee is that they are not really... antagonists. They are more like glass ceiling. Something that is above you but what you can't break. They literally the most powerful civilization ever published in SF.

Downstreamers by the same author could eat the Xeelee for breakfast.

Xeelee represent complete control over a universe. Downstreamers represent complete control over a multiverse, including the creation and deletion of universes within it.

Kato
2012-03-06, 01:16 PM
Oh, yay, another "Gurren Lagann vs XXX" discussion...

Okay, guys, this is pointlss for three reasons:
1) Gurren Lagann fans are rapid animals whose opinion you will never change. (It takes one to know one :smallbiggrin:)
2) Every opponent people pick tp fight the TTGL crew is so massively overpowered it's ALWAYS a (unstoppable force against immovable object" discussion. (Unless someone really picks someone who is clearly inferior to the crew)
3) Spiral Power doesn't follow any logical reasoning but is all about passion, ideals and beliefs (as Devonix said) If there is any way to win, even if it requires them to undo the universe from start, stopping the creation of their enemy in the first place and then rebuilding the universe from scratch... it can do it. (Since it is pretty much impossible)
Yeah, the Xeelee might be able to create infinite time loops but obviously they still need technology and need to follow certain laws. And Gurren lagann does not. It doesn't make any sense in any logical way and it is boring as hell, but that's what Spiral Power os from what we know (possibly)

Forum Explorer
2012-03-06, 01:28 PM
Oh, yay, another "Gurren Lagann vs XXX" discussion...

Okay, guys, this is pointlss for three reasons:
1) Gurren Lagann fans are rapid animals whose opinion you will never change. (It takes one to know one :smallbiggrin:)
2) Every opponent people pick tp fight the TTGL crew is so massively overpowered it's ALWAYS a (unstoppable force against immovable object" discussion. (Unless someone really picks someone who is clearly inferior to the crew)
3) Spiral Power doesn't follow any logical reasoning but is all about passion, ideals and beliefs (as Devonix said) If there is any way to win, even if it requires them to undo the universe from start, stopping the creation of their enemy in the first place and then rebuilding the universe from scratch... it can do it. (Since it is pretty much impossible)
Yeah, the Xeelee might be able to create infinite time loops but obviously they still need technology and need to follow certain laws. And Gurren lagann does not. It doesn't make any sense in any logical way and it is boring as hell in verse matches, but that's what Spiral Power os from what we know (possibly)

Fixed that for you. Unless you're saying that you found the show boring.

Mando Knight
2012-03-06, 01:51 PM
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/gurennlagann/images/5/5f/TengenToppaGurren-LagannMECH.jpg

This is a question?
You're thinking small.
http://images.wikia.com/gurennlagann/images/d/d0/Vlcsnap-2010-02-01-22h40m06s158.png (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EztAWwvfRao)

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-06, 02:58 PM
Umm sorry but why precisely is a crew and their robots (and maybe their whole planet) being set against a intergalactic scale civilization?

This lacks any meaningful bounds for a match-up.

TTGL and Super TTGL break all bonds of logic (they rewrite reality even to move), even before that level just Kittan turned a 0% chance of success into victory. The Anti-Spiral literally had unlimited power to rewrite the rules of reality... and Simon & Co beat him by going "screw you we don't care" with a lot of manly posing. So no amount of force directed at them is going to beat them. However the Anti-Spiral explicitly fought them directly to break them and cause despair.

Yet if the Xeelee are still a civilization of multiple people at an intergalactic scale. Then they aren't a concentrated force but diffused. Do they have something that can be Giga Drilled that will beat them? Even "capital galaxy" or something. At the same time why do they even take notice of one race on one planet.

This seems to me almost like asking whether a nuclear weapon can beat the ocean. Technically no, but just saying that doesn't make it meaningful as a comparison of power because the ocean doesn't actually do anything to earn its "victory."

Xondoure
2012-03-06, 03:01 PM
Umm sorry but why precisely is a crew and their robots (and maybe their whole planet) being set against a intergalactic scale civilization?

This lacks any meaningful bounds for a match-up.

TTGL and Super TTGL break all bonds of logic (they rewrite reality even to move), even before that level just Kittan turned a 0% chance of success into victory. The Anti-Spiral literally had unlimited power to rewrite the rules of reality... and Simon & Co beat him by going "screw you we don't care" with a lot of manly posing. So no amount of force directed at them is going to beat them. However the Anti-Spiral explicitly fought them directly to break them and cause despair.

Yet if the Xeelee are still a civilization of multiple people at an intergalactic scale. Then they aren't a concentrated force but diffused. Do they have something that can be Giga Drilled that will beat them? Even "capital galaxy" or something. At the same time why do they even take notice of one race on one planet.

This seems to me almost like asking whether a nuclear weapon can beat the ocean. Technically no, but just saying that doesn't make it meaningful as a comparison of power because the ocean doesn't actually do anything to earn its "victory."

Sure it can, especially one that points its drill towards the core and breaks the planet.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-06, 03:42 PM
I know nothing of either of the two in question, but I am forced to ask:

What prevents the Xeelee from learning about this Spiral power and utilising right back, given that they have an apparant ability to understand everything and can literally make time to study it in? Assuming they are not culturally imparied enough to have divorced emotions or something (which is always a stupid thing to do), and assuming that shounen anime laws are in force, meaning the TTGL people don't - or can't obliterate them all in one go - why can't the Xeelee learn about Spiral power, bugger off outside of time or whatever for however long it takes, and come back with the best one of their number they've managed to find/organise etc etc and use this Spiral power themselves?

Perhaps, if they can't do it themselves, could they not create a person or race or soemthing, given their effectively unlimited resources (if I'm understanding what has been said) who can and then gently guide and raise them to believe as ferverantly in the Xeelee's cause, of their own free will, as the TTGL crew believe in whatever it is that gives them their power to use this force? Effectively creating their own shounen protagonist, who's belief in his own..."Xeeleeiness?" is equal or stronger than their opponents, and whose protagonist plot-armour is equal to that of the TTGL people? (Or perhaps three or four or a thousand?)

Or are the Xeelee among the "omnipotent beings that are somehow "evolved" to the point they are incapable of being people because they no longer have emotions etc etc ect" crowd?



Perhaps they could cut out the middle man and create a field that simply negates emotion? That might still be negated by the "nuh uh" the TTGL appear to have, so the former option would seem to be the better one, if I'm understanding aright that the Xeelee have effectively unlimited time to prepare a response.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-06, 04:02 PM
What prevents the Xeelee from learning about this Spiral power and utilising right back, given that they have an apparant ability to understand everything and can literally make time to study it in?

The general unconscious guideline that in a versus you don't cross contaminate powers/tech because once you break down whatever the respective 'canon' into speculation it becomes increasingly meaningless opinion.

And once you get into speculation it would be entirely consistent with TTGL's trends (they invented Beyond the Impossible afterall) for Simon to have the titular mecha generate billions of drills to shoot everywhere, all at once, and wipe out the Xeelee everywhere at once.

(Also if the Xeelee beat Spirals by using Spiral power isn't that explicitly proving that TTGL is better it just doesn't have population scale yet)

Prime32
2012-03-06, 04:50 PM
I know nothing of either of the two in question, but I am forced to ask:

What prevents the Xeelee from learning about this Spiral power and utilising right back, given that they have an apparant ability to understand everything and can literally make time to study it in? Assuming they are not culturally imparied enough to have divorced emotions or something (which is always a stupid thing to do), and assuming that shounen anime laws are in force, meaning the TTGL people don't - or can't obliterate them all in one go - why can't the Xeelee learn about Spiral power, bugger off outside of time or whatever for however long it takes, and come back with the best one of their number they've managed to find/organise etc etc and use this Spiral power themselves?

Perhaps, if they can't do it themselves, could they not create a person or race or soemthing, given their effectively unlimited resources (if I'm understanding what has been said) who can and then gently guide and raise them to believe as ferverantly in the Xeelee's cause, of their own free will, as the TTGL crew believe in whatever it is that gives them their power to use this force? Effectively creating their own shounen protagonist, who's belief in his own..."Xeeleeiness?" is equal or stronger than their opponents, and whose protagonist plot-armour is equal to that of the TTGL people? (Or perhaps three or four or a thousand?)I think the issue is that anyone with a viewpoint opposed to the TTGL crew would not be able to harness Spiral Power well, while anyone with a compatible viewpoint would join forces with them to fight the Xeelee. And anyone who isn't completely insane would stop using Spiral Power once they found out about Spiral Nemesis.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-06, 05:56 PM
The general unconscious guideline that in a versus you don't cross contaminate powers/tech because once you break down whatever the respective 'canon' into speculation it becomes increasingly meaningless opinion.

And once you get into speculation it would be entirely consistent with TTGL's trends (they invented Beyond the Impossible afterall) for Simon to have the titular mecha generate billions of drills to shoot everywhere, all at once, and wipe out the Xeelee everywhere at once.

(Also if the Xeelee beat Spirals by using Spiral power isn't that explicitly proving that TTGL is better it just doesn't have population scale yet)

But if I'm understanding what is being said, Spiral power is explictly a power that automatically lets them win by means that boils down to "my Dad can beat up your Dad," even when your Dad has the ability to make infinite time and universes and all of everything. So we're already at that level, merely by mentioning TTGL, surely.


I think the issue is that anyone with a viewpoint opposed to the TTGL crew would not be able to harness Spiral Power well, while anyone with a compatible viewpoint would join forces with them to fight the Xeelee. And anyone who isn't completely insane would stop using Spiral Power once they found out about Spiral Nemesis.

And this brings me to my next big question. If what you are saying is true, what is it that makes the TTGL power so powerful and yet that only people with their explict world-view, can use it properly?

(Which if I am too take the hype at face value - and I freely acknowledge that there is likely to be be more to it than that, so please feel free to enlighten me - is based on some nebulous concept of "manliness1" and utilising... what in another context would be very poor weapon choice as a medium1 I would have assumed the power of friendship or some such is involved somewhere - it often is - but with my current knowledge, it would be nothing more than speculation on my part at this point...)

Because if that is the case - and again, I must state my understanding of this is rudimentary at best - is that not kinda like saying "our way is the only one that's right, and everybody else, no matter who they are, is just wrong, because our way is objectively best, despite being based on a highly subjective viewpoint, subject, if (probably) not to general concepts of good and evil, at least cultural differentation in the same broad morality?" Because that is a mind-bogglingly narrow-minded and incredibly arrogant attitude (for the original writer) to take.



If the explantion of why only they get to use the universe shattering basically boils down to "humans are super-special-awesome" or worse "(some over-idealised concept of) men are super-special-awesome" I shall be extraordinarily irritated.



1Which is itself a term I find at best in use to be mildy amusing in small doses, and at worst to be sexist and speciest arrogance of the highest order.

2Drills are not effective weapons, anime/manga/everyone in general. (I'm not just targettig TTGL, this is a common enough trope in anime etc to warrent mentioning, yes Kiba Inuzuka, that means you and Akamaru both...) They just aren't. No, not even then. Armour-piercing does not work that way (and nor does rifling, before anyone suggests it). Drills and armour-piercing weapons do two entirely different jobs - the former is a tool for boring a controlled hole, delivering an accurate and continual force, whereas armour-piercing doesn't really care about the state of the thing it's hitting afterward, and would preferably like it borken anyway, and delivers a shock loaded force (and materials often behave completely differently to impact loads than to continuous force).

But I'm going to go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the TTGL are sufficiently powerful they can just use whatever the frag they like, because the actual form of the weapons is irrelevant, and serve merely as a focussing point for their...whatever it is they are doing, so if they think drills are cool, they focus better or something. (Of course, rule-of-cool only works if you think it's cool. I, personally, don't.)

Kinslayer
2012-03-06, 06:00 PM
Fixed that for you. Unless you're saying that you found the show boring.

Since that's such an unreasonable statement.

Oh wait. It's entirely reasonable.

kpenguin
2012-03-06, 06:11 PM
What we've got here is a fight between two entities that seem nigh-omnipotent. I think examining capabilities is going to be unproductive. What we should really be looking is how this would work in a story, in the context of the normal rules (more like general guidelines) of narrative.

So, what would happen in a story?

In a usual story, Gurren Lagann would win. The Xeelee are an alien, faceless, almost inifintely powerful, undefeatable enemy, the very sort of enemy a team of hot-blooded infinite power shonen protaganists defeat usually.

On the other hand, what if we're not in that sort of story? What if we're in a story designed to emphasize how small and insignificant humanity it is? In that case, for all Gurren Lagann's bluster, they'd not only be crushed, they'd be crushed by the equivalent the Xeelee brushing a tick off their collective shoulder.

So, really, it all depends on what sort of story we're going to tell. The first scenario, I believe, is the more common story framework. Heroes overcoming impossible odds via grit teeth and determination. So, I'd give higher chances of a TTGL victory. But there's always the chance its the second type of story, though more uncommon.

GloatingSwine
2012-03-06, 07:17 PM
In a usual story, Gurren Lagann would win. The Xeelee are an alien, faceless, almost inifintely powerful, undefeatable enemy,

And they barely notice that you're there.

In the books Humanity is at war with the Xeelee several times for hundreds of thousands of years at a time, and the Xeelee barely care at all. To them it's like having a slightly annoying rash that you might scratch occasionally but never actually do anything about.

kpenguin
2012-03-06, 07:57 PM
And they barely notice that you're there.

In the books Humanity is at war with the Xeelee several times for hundreds of thousands of years at a time, and the Xeelee barely care at all. To them it's like having a slightly annoying rash that you might scratch occasionally but never actually do anything about.

Yup.

Which is why they have no chance in a "plucky heroes versus undefeatable enemy" type story. And why their victory is assured in the "humanity is but specks of dust in the cosmic arena" story.

Oindoth
2012-03-06, 08:43 PM
And they barely notice that you're there.

In the books Humanity is at war with the Xeelee several times for hundreds of thousands of years at a time, and the Xeelee barely care at all. To them it's like having a slightly annoying rash that you might scratch occasionally but never actually do anything about.

This is exactly the kind of thing the TTGL folks are absolutely excellent at. That's what I said in my first post; if it's absolutely impossible, they're guaranteed to win.

Tiki Snakes
2012-03-06, 08:46 PM
2Drills are not effective weapons, anime/manga/everyone in general. (I'm not just targettig TTGL, this is a common enough trope in anime etc to warrent mentioning, yes Kiba Inuzuka, that means you and Akamaru both...) They just aren't. No, not even then. Armour-piercing does not work that way (and nor does rifling, before anyone suggests it). Drills and armour-piercing weapons do two entirely different jobs - the former is a tool for boring a controlled hole, delivering an accurate and continual force, whereas armour-piercing doesn't really care about the state of the thing it's hitting afterward, and would preferably like it borken anyway, and delivers a shock loaded force (and materials often behave completely differently to impact loads than to continuous force).

But I'm going to go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the TTGL are sufficiently powerful they can just use whatever the frag they like, because the actual form of the weapons is irrelevant, and serve merely as a focussing point for their...whatever it is they are doing, so if they think drills are cool, they focus better or something. (Of course, rule-of-cool only works if you think it's cool. I, personally, don't.)

Actually, the form of the weapon in the case of the Gurren Lagann crew IS important, and actually beneficial for very, very specific reasons. Specifically, it's called spiral power for a reason. The simple fact the weapon moves in a spiral is almost certainly going to have an effect (as well as being innately tied up in the whole schtick of 'Seemon the Digger' and so on. It's a powerful symbol on many levels, and given what Spiral Power is fueled by and what Gurren Lagann runs on, that's a thing.



Yup.

Which is why they have no chance in a "plucky heroes versus undefeatable enemy" type story. And why their victory is assured in the "humanity is but specks of dust in the cosmic arena" story.

The problem with this is that their sheer scale and every advantage kind of isn't any defence, because insane stuff like this;



And once you get into speculation it would be entirely consistent with TTGL's trends (they invented Beyond the Impossible afterall) for Simon to have the titular mecha generate billions of drills to shoot everywhere, all at once, and wipe out the Xeelee everywhere at once.
is quite reasonably within the realm of Gurren Lagann's existing tactics. They never did it at that scale because of the specifics of the battles involved, but there would be no reason they couldn't pull that particular schtick again in their largest form.

It's hard to compare a foe [who rides in a mecha made of galaxies, and could possibly be capable of hitting everywhere and everywhen at once and twisting everything it hits out of creation altogether] to a rash, on any meaningful scale.

But likewise, if the Xeelee aren't particular attempting to stop or do anything to the spiral-races, then there's basically no reason that there would ever be a conflict anyway, (and without any kind of conflict, there'd be no reason for Gurren Lagann to start breaking out the super-mechs).

I'm not sure Gurren Lagann can even exist in a story designed to emphasize how small and insignificant humanity is, not meaningfully, and from the point of view of the factions themselves, that's exactly the story the Anti-Spirals were trying to tell.


TL:DR.
Kato was right. As awesome as Gurren Lagann is, there's not really any point invoking them in versus thread matchups unless you are setting some very different criteria than usual.

Devonix
2012-03-06, 09:07 PM
Battles in an of themselves are not the purpose of Spiral power or even what the show really is about. That's just the window dressing.

They can and have had Canon AU stories where Gurren Lagann was a Highschool Drama everything still works exactly the same. You can have the Gurren Lagann team use Spiral power to win at a cooking contest.


Spiral power is about using the hopes and dreams of yourself and those around you to make the impossible possible. The will of not humanity but the will of life itself to all ways find a way. Gurren Lagann isn't about Humans are special. Gurren Lagann is about LIFE being special. All life forms possess the potential for it.

Hell Spiral power can cause you to win by making your enemy become your friend if thats whats nessesary to achieve victory.

Devonix
2012-03-06, 09:38 PM
The Xeelee are about there all ways being something above you. Gurren Lagann is about all ways being able to burst through that ceiling. The two things are not valid in a vs because they cancel out.

Mikeavelli
2012-03-06, 10:28 PM
But I'm going to go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that the TTGL are sufficiently powerful they can just use whatever the frag they like, because the actual form of the weapons is irrelevant, and serve merely as a focussing point for their...whatever it is they are doing, so if they think drills are cool, they focus better or something. (Of course, rule-of-cool only works if you think it's cool. I, personally, don't.)




Actually, the form of the weapon in the case of the Gurren Lagann crew IS important, and actually beneficial for very, very specific reasons. Specifically, it's called spiral power for a reason. The simple fact the weapon moves in a spiral is almost certainly going to have an effect (as well as being innately tied up in the whole schtick of 'Seemon the Digger' and so on. It's a powerful symbol on many levels, and given what Spiral Power is fueled by and what Gurren Lagann runs on, that's a thing.



Mild disagreement

Drills are more effective because the drill shape resonates with the spiral shape, but it doesn't have to be that way. See also: LordGenomes drill bit combat tentacles, and the shield that turtle thing uses being spirally (and therefore more powerful than other forms!), but taking the form they're most comfortable with, rather than the drills we've seen the protagonists use.

But, In that last battle, all of the characters take their turn being "in charge" of the universe-sized mecha, so when Yoko is in charge it uses a gun, when Viral is in charge it's using swords, and when Simon is in charge it uses drills.

--------------------

That said the Xeelee form the Archetypical TTGL villain race, they appear to be bad AND overpowering from the outside, but their villainous actions are in fact necessary in order to prevent something else even worse happening.

TTGL guys would inevitably win (at which point the Xeelee would just leave, since they're planning to do that anyways, and don't appear to care about fighting to the death) - and then you'd have another season where they have to fight the Dark Matter bird things.

kpenguin
2012-03-06, 10:31 PM
The Xeelee are about there all ways being something above you. Gurren Lagann is about all ways being able to burst through that ceiling. The two things are not valid in a vs because they cancel out.

Yeah, pretty much.

Whichever story we use here, we render moot the narrative weight behind one of the combatants.

danzibr
2012-03-06, 10:39 PM
I'd never even seen the letters x, e and l combined in such a manner before a minute ago, but I have to throw my lot it in with the uber Gurren Lagaan, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan. I mean... they show over and over throughout the series that they win every fight they shouldn't.

Then again, I know nothing about the Xeelee.

dgnslyr
2012-03-06, 10:50 PM
I'm thinking that so much Spiral Energy will be used, and the nature of the fight will reach such a ridiculous conclusion, that the Xeelee, being reasonable, intelligent omnipotent beings, will decide, "Yup, this is ridiculous, let's stop now before someone gets an aneurysm from all this illogic."

Instead of thinking about fighting exclusively, how would they react to each other? How would the Xeelee react to a race that can literally do anything if they want it badly enough? What would the Dai-Gurren Brigade think of some omnipotent but totally benevolent alien overseers? Of course, when you're omnipotent god-like aliens, I'd imagine everything is just according to plan.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-06, 10:54 PM
But if I'm understanding what is being said, Spiral power is explictly a power that automatically lets them win by means that boils down to "my Dad can beat up your Dad," even when your Dad has the ability to make infinite time and universes and all of everything. So we're already at that level, merely by mentioning TTGL, surely.

And this brings me to my next big question. If what you are saying is true, what is it that makes the TTGL power so powerful and yet that only people with their explict world-view, can use it properly?

Both of these relate to how Spiral Power is basically a range. In itself Spiral Power is basically infinite but how much you can access depends on your Shonen Hot Blood Fighting Spirit. A normal person can fuel a normal mecha for free on their fighting spirit. And there's a technological aspect to it that makes Spiral Power essentially free energy to some truly huge scales (battleship the size of the moon for example) but its never clear exactly how.

However the Protagonist class can do things like spontaneously develop the ability to drill through spacetime (teleport) just so you can deliver a Bright Slap. The laws of physics become at the most loose guidelines somewhere below not wearing white after Labor Day. And the conclusion of TTGL is basically everyone learning to do this and results in the titular mecha's scale which is well... you've got to see it to appreciate it.

Now there's a couple of ways of collecting the will and determination to abuse physics however you choose, but the better way is basically summed up by thinking like Kamina:

Go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb! That's how Team Gurren rolls!

So either you come around to their awesome way of thinking or you loose in any kind of fight.

Selrahc
2012-03-07, 02:53 AM
The thing about TTGL is that it seems to have no defence against time travel, while the Xeelee make heavy use of time travel.

If the Xeelee war fleet obliterates all the spiral users before they even start to grow more and more powerful... that's game.

Why did the Xeelee not do this to humans in their stories? Because humans were a tiny nuisance. And in fact, a nuisance that they ultimately made some efforts to save from their real enemy.

Why did the Xeelee not do that to their real enemy? Because they were a fundamental part of the universe, and not something that had a point where it was a vulnerable one planet species.

But Gurenn Lagann spends much of its story easily destroyable. So it needs some defence from time travel to fight the Xeelee.

Devonix
2012-03-07, 06:19 AM
The thing about TTGL is that it seems to have no defence against time travel, while the Xeelee make heavy use of time travel.

If the Xeelee war fleet obliterates all the spiral users before they even start to grow more and more powerful... that's game.

Why did the Xeelee not do this to humans in their stories? Because humans were a tiny nuisance. And in fact, a nuisance that they ultimately made some efforts to save from their real enemy.

Why did the Xeelee not do that to their real enemy? Because they were a fundamental part of the universe, and not something that had a point where it was a vulnerable one planet species.

But Gurenn Lagann spends much of its story easily destroyable. So it needs some defence from time travel to fight the Xeelee.

Actually near the end of the series the battles that they fight are taking place through time Its part of the reason that the anti spirals were so difficult to locate. Their ships could travel and attack from different points in time negating your attack. So Gurren lagann started sending out attacks into the past and future at the same time knowing that at some point their attack would have hit them.

DigoDragon
2012-03-07, 07:56 AM
The Xeelee are about there all ways being something above you.

Indeed, as there was a race of creatures that even the Xeelee could not stop.

Devonix
2012-03-07, 08:09 AM
Indeed, as there was a race of creatures that even the Xeelee could not stop.

Yep I forget the name apparently they controlled all Dark matter in the universe. But most likely they had something above them as well.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-07, 09:33 AM
Gurren Lagann isn't about Humans are special. Gurren Lagann is about LIFE being special. All life forms possess the potential for it.

Speaking as Undead, I find that mildly offensive...

But moving on.


So either you come around to their awesome way of thinking or you loose in any kind of fight.

And therein lies my problem. "Awesome" is highly subjective. And what humans may consider "hot-blooded fighting spirit" (sic), another alien species may consider "cold-ichored combat focus" or something.

If in reality it's just about intensity (i.e. passion) and determination and willpower, then any entity with sufficient intensity and determination and belief in it's own way of thinking should be able to match the TTGL people; especially when neither side has protagonist shields (which is subtly not the same as plot shields). And that's independant of whether Spiral power only works "properly" for the good guys or not.

(Now, if the Xeelee are indeed the bland, faceless, emotionless, "beyond-the-concepts-of-good-and-evil"-so-are-automatically-evil crowd, then they deserve their arses being kicked for so frag-damn stupid.)

But otherwise, the rules of the universe are saying that this philosphy is objectively better than all others and the paragon of virtue and power. And as an equalist, I find that any thought along that line to be enormously, well, arrogant and narrow-minded.

Eldan
2012-03-07, 09:46 AM
Some of the badguys are indeed non-human, and they do indeed use spiral power, sometimes while violently suppressing humans. So, that seems to work.

Tiki Snakes
2012-03-07, 11:47 AM
Some of the badguys are indeed non-human, and they do indeed use spiral power, sometimes while violently suppressing humans. So, that seems to work.

Admittedly, there's only one bad-guy who used Spiral-Power that I can actually think of, but it was a pretty epic fight, so there is that. He was human though.

Dr.Epic
2012-03-07, 12:21 PM
My money's on the guys who pieced the heavens

Prime32
2012-03-07, 02:16 PM
Some of the badguys are indeed non-human, and they do indeed use spiral power, sometimes while violently suppressing humans. So, that seems to work.Didn't Guame also use Spiral Power? But in any case their power comes from the time they were hot-blooded shonen protagonists, and has weakened since then.


And therein lies my problem. "Awesome" is highly subjective. And what humans may consider "hot-blooded fighting spirit" (sic), another alien species may consider "cold-ichored combat focus" or something.

If in reality it's just about intensity (i.e. passion) and determination and willpower, then any entity with sufficient intensity and determination and belief in it's own way of thinking should be able to match the TTGL people; especially when neither side has protagonist shields (which is subtly not the same as plot shields). And that's independant of whether Spiral power only works "properly" for the good guys or not.

(Now, if the Xeelee are indeed the bland, faceless, emotionless, "beyond-the-concepts-of-good-and-evil"-so-are-automatically-evil crowd, then they deserve their arses being kicked for so frag-damn stupid.)

But otherwise, the rules of the universe are saying that this philosphy is objectively better than all others and the paragon of virtue and power. And as an equalist, I find that any thought along that line to be enormously, well, arrogant and narrow-minded.Basically, Spiral Power is the power of evolution, growth, and change. Holding yourself or others back, or focusing on the past, will weaken your Spiral Power or make it uncontrollable. All life tends to evolve towards roughly the same point, an altruistic humanoid. The "villain" of TTGL is Spiral Nemesis, the fear that Spirals will become greedy/lazy/"fully evolved"/something (and thus lose their reality-warping powers) after all of them have evolved into galaxies, causing a Big Crunch.

Yes it makes no sense. That's kind of the point.

GloatingSwine
2012-03-07, 02:33 PM
The Xeelee are about there all ways being something above you. Gurren Lagann is about all ways being able to burst through that ceiling. The two things are not valid in a vs because they cancel out.

Not really.

The theme of the Xeelee books is more like "If you don't have a plan to survive the heat death of the universe, you're not really planning in the long term".


Yep I forget the name apparently they controlled all Dark matter in the universe. But most likely they had something above them as well.

The Photino Birds. They didn't "control" Dark Matter. They were Dark Matter. Their existence is what is causing the universal expansion (and thereby heat death).

In the end the baryonic races all just leave, because there's really nothing you can do about that.

MLai
2012-03-08, 09:00 AM
But otherwise, the rules of the universe are saying that this philosphy is objectively better than all others and the paragon of virtue and power. And as an equalist, I find that any thought along that line to be enormously, well, arrogant and narrow-minded.
If you're using Spiral Power, then human or not, overall you will be fighting for the same reasons as the humans, so ultimately you'll be friends. If you're fighting for different reasons, then your SP would be "corrupted" and weak.

Analogy would be... (I'm gonna say it now) Jedi using the Force.


The theme of the Xeelee books is more like "If you don't have a plan to survive the heat death of the universe, you're not really planning in the long term".
And the theme of Spiral Power in this instance would be "When it gets to that point, we'll find a way. We always do. That's what being a MAN is all about."


The Photino Birds. They didn't "control" Dark Matter. They were Dark Matter. Their existence is what is causing the universal expansion (and thereby heat death).
In the end the baryonic races all just leave, because there's really nothing you can do about that.
So, basically... you can't live with them, you can't live without them?

Tectonic Robot
2012-03-08, 09:21 AM
This all seems incredibly silly. You know what, I think they'd just hang if they met, not getting into some monstrous universe destroying battle. One's a good guy and the other just doesn't care, amirite?

Also power levels are silly.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-08, 12:10 PM
If you're using Spiral Power, then human or not, overall you will be fighting for the same reasons as the humans, so ultimately you'll be friends. If you're fighting for different reasons, then your SP would be "corrupted" and weak.

And the theme of Spiral Power in this instance would be "When it gets to that point, we'll find a way. We always do. That's what being a MAN is all about."

So, I am understanding that you're saying Spiral Power is a human(male)-exclusive weapon, and that unless you follow the exact philosphy of this particular sub-section of human culture (leaving no room for varying cultural or species perspectives even assuming that those differences are not, in very broad terms, inherently evil, just different), that the inherent rules of the universe (i.e. those that quantify Spiral power) are basically telling you your way is objectively inferior? That your philophy is flat-out wrong, because this and only this way of thinking is the correct one?




Analogy would be... (I'm gonna say it now) Jedi using the Force.

Given that not all force users are Jedi or Sith, and that there is a great deal of interpretation room therein (and that there is no clear indicator that the Dark Side is inherently weaker, only eviller (most of the time)), that would not seem to be an especially good analogy, unless Spiral power has a lot more wriggle-room than you're implying above.

Reverent-One
2012-03-08, 12:39 PM
So, I am understanding that you're saying Spiral Power is a human(male)-exclusive weapon, and that unless you follow the exact philosphy of this particular sub-section of human culture (leaving no room for varying cultural or species perspectives even assuming that those differences are not, in very broad terms, inherently evil, just different), that the inherent rules of the universe (i.e. those that quantify Spiral power) are basically telling you your way is objectively inferior? That your philophy is flat-out wrong, because this and only this way of thinking is the correct one?

If you judge a philishopy as being right or wrong by how much Spiral Power it produces, then yes, there is one objectively supierior philosophy. That said, Spiral Power is neither human or male exclusive. There are many other spiral races besides humanity, and in the course of the series, a non-human earth animal taps into it as well. As Spiral Power is the energy of evolution, any race that evolves can produce it (though from a cross universe perspective, having double helix DNA may be required, but is simply a given in the GL universe).

Tectonic Robot
2012-03-08, 12:43 PM
So, I am understanding that you're saying Spiral Power is a human(male)-exclusive weapon, and that unless you follow the exact philosphy of this particular sub-section of human culture (leaving no room for varying cultural or species perspectives even assuming that those differences are not, in very broad terms, inherently evil, just different), that the inherent rules of the universe (i.e. those that quantify Spiral power) are basically telling you your way is objectively inferior? That your philophy is flat-out wrong, because this and only this way of thinking is the correct one?

I've watched most of the anime, and it's not really like that at all. Maybe you should just watch it instead of asking these questions? It's a pretty short series, and most people have found it pretty enjoyable.

Your choice of words and use of italics is a little combatative, though. We're all friends here, right? The show doesn't really deal with different cultures at all, and the most likely response of the main characters to someone different them themselves would be acceptance or somesuch. And, if I remember correctly, it is not an exclusively male human weapon at all; it's just the strongest practicionar of the art if a human male, and he resonates the power force to a ridiculous degree or something.

DiscipleofBob
2012-03-08, 12:50 PM
So, I am understanding that you're saying Spiral Power is a human(male)-exclusive weapon, and that unless you follow the exact philosphy of this particular sub-section of human culture (leaving no room for varying cultural or species perspectives even assuming that those differences are not, in very broad terms, inherently evil, just different), that the inherent rules of the universe (i.e. those that quantify Spiral power) are basically telling you your way is objectively inferior? That your philophy is flat-out wrong, because this and only this way of thinking is the correct one?

No, you are not understanding correctly. Spiral Power is not a human(male)-exclusive weapon, as it is used by females and beastmen (and at least one fabulous mechanic) in the series on a regular basis. Spiral Power is the raw energy behind the desire to survive, thrive, progress, evolve, and to never give up. It is best wielded by (but is not exclusive to) those who throw caution and logic to the wind because the more a hopeless situation is analyzed the easier it becomes to give up, whereas someone like Simone or Kamina will look at a hopeless situation, press forward with all they've got anyway, and come out victorious despite all odds.

The only people who cannot use Spiral Power are those who have stopped evolving completely and remain at a stagnant status quo. In the TTGL universe, there are many planets with their own spiral races, it was just humans who led the charge against the Anti-Spiral. So, for your hypothetical culture, if said culture lacked any and all ambition or instinct to thrive or even just survive, then yes, your way is objectively inferior.

Reverent-One
2012-03-08, 12:53 PM
No, you are not understanding correctly. Spiral Power is not a human(male)-exclusive weapon, as it is used by females and beastmen (and at least one fabulous mechanic) in the series on a regular basis.

What? No, beastmen are stated as being unable to produce spiral power, since they don't evolve due to their origin.

Tiki Snakes
2012-03-08, 12:55 PM
Yeah, there are few examples of non-humans using spiral power for several simple reasons; The two badguy factions - One mostly consisted of demi-humans, bio-engineered by a supreemely powerful spiral-power-warrior to NOT be able to use spiral power, and a faction who dedicated their entire existence to stamping out the use of Spiral Power (at any cost).

But it is explicitely stated that there are innumerable other non-human spiral-races in the universe, and even a (more or less common animal) manages at several points to meaningfully assist due to it's own spiral-power contributions. There aren't exactly many female characters in the show either, but both the meaningful ones on the relevant (spiral using) side show no lack of talent at piloting Gunmen or using spiral power.

As for the philosophical side of things, eh, I don't think that's a major componant, excepting that philosophies that emphasise indomitable fighting spirit are more likely to produce spiral power.

Mando Knight
2012-03-08, 01:00 PM
What? No, beastmen are stated as being unable to produce spiral power, since they don't evolve due to their origin.

Whether or not Viral eventually overcomes this limitation is up for debate, though he's treated like a spiral being by the Anti-Spiral...

DiscipleofBob
2012-03-08, 01:03 PM
What? No, beastmen are stated as being unable to produce spiral power, since they don't evolve due to their origin.

This is one of those cases where the canon refutes itself. Yes, it's stated that Beastmen cannot normally produce spiral power. But then there's Viral. It's a plot hole that only really makes sense if said Beastmen just had repressed Spiral Power when the Spiral King was in charge.

I tried looking up the exact reason Viral is able to sync up with Kamina and is present during the final battle and gets his own core drill, but all I got was an error message:

Error Infinity: JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE?!?!?!?

Reverent-One
2012-03-08, 01:07 PM
It's entirely possible Viral's just brought along for the ride by the Spiral Power of Simon and friends, kinda like his entire purpose as Lagann's pilot. We see him sitting there doing nothing while Simon and Boonta are charging up super galaxy Gurren Lagann, if he had Spiral Power, why wasn't he helping?

Forum Explorer
2012-03-08, 01:18 PM
So, I am understanding that you're saying Spiral Power is a human(male)-exclusive weapon, and that unless you follow the exact philosphy of this particular sub-section of human culture (leaving no room for varying cultural or species perspectives even assuming that those differences are not, in very broad terms, inherently evil, just different), that the inherent rules of the universe (i.e. those that quantify Spiral power) are basically telling you your way is objectively inferior? That your philophy is flat-out wrong, because this and only this way of thinking is the correct one?





Given that not all force users are Jedi or Sith, and that there is a great deal of interpretation room therein (and that there is no clear indicator that the Dark Side is inherently weaker, only eviller (most of the time)), that would not seem to be an especially good analogy, unless Spiral power has a lot more wriggle-room than you're implying above.

If you had the philosophy to only make decisions based on pure logic but didn't discard your emotions you would be able to use Spiral Power still. However its likely that you would have a lot less power to tap into. So like said before if your definition of best is based on how much Spiral Power you can tap then yes there is one best philosophy. However one of the main characters actually couldn't contribute to Spiral Power before (or perhaps he overcame that limitation? The final fight is confusing) As well as others contributed and made plans without using Spiral Power. Ultimatilly Spiral Power is exactly what it sounds like. Its a power source. It lets you do things. Not using it doesn't make you wrong just weaker in a fight. It is also self-destructive if used incorrectly.

Prime32
2012-03-08, 01:50 PM
Ultimatilly Spiral Power is exactly what it sounds like. Its a power source. It lets you do things. Not using it doesn't make you wrong just weaker in a fight. It is also self-destructive if used incorrectly.Also, since the strongest Spirals focus on the future rather than the present or past, after overthrowing a tyrant they turned out to be hilariously bad at government.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-08, 02:40 PM
But it is explicitely stated that there are innumerable other non-human spiral-races in the universe, and even a (more or less common animal) manages at several points to meaningfully assist due to it's own spiral-power contributions. There aren't exactly many female characters in the show either, but both the meaningful ones on the relevant (spiral using) side show no lack of talent at piloting Gunmen or using spiral power.

As for the philosophical side of things, eh, I don't think that's a major componant, excepting that philosophies that emphasise indomitable fighting spirit are more likely to produce spiral power.


The only people who cannot use Spiral Power are those who have stopped evolving completely and remain at a stagnant status quo. In the TTGL universe, there are many planets with their own spiral races, it was just humans who led the charge against the Anti-Spiral. So, for your hypothetical culture, if said culture lacked any and all ambition or instinct to thrive or even just survive, then yes, your way is objectively inferior.

Right, now, you see, that's more like what I thought it was when Prime32 responded to my query the last time, and what I had initially suspected; but not what MLai was saying (or at least not how it came across). Which was why I asked; because I was honestly having trouble buying (or accepting) the alternative, especially if it was supported by people whose opinions I would otherwise have thought not unreasonable.

(Also, the use of the phrase "Manliness" or "Real Man" as an ideal in anything other the strictly humorous applications I find entirely unpalatable on a quintessential level, so I was a bit more sharp than I perhaps intended, for which I apologise.)

So, the answer appears to be yes, it is about intensity and passion (etc), so a non-human mindset could effectively wield Spiral Power - provided they aren't stupid enough to have given up on emotions or think themselves so perfect they don't need to improve. (Which the Xeelee may well be; in which case I will cheerfully see them kicked to the curb.) So, yes, the answer to my first post would be yes, theoretically, if, and only IF, the Xeelee were capable of understanding the nature of Spiral Power, they probably could bugger off into their infinite time-space blahblahblah and pull out a Xeelee Protagonist (or Xeelee Servitor Race Protagonist) who would show up, doubtless to ramble about the Appropriately-Temperatured Metabolic Emotional Intensity which is what Being A Species is all about or somesuch.

(And then it would boil down to which side, if any, had Protagonist Shields (them being defined "as you can be 99% sure the protagonist is going to win in most generas - especially shonen - and it's the how that's interesting"), as to who would win.)



It's not emotions as a power-source that I have problems with; that's fine, nay, even plausible. And I will cheerful agree that any idiot who disgards emotions is going to suffer for it in the long run (because that never, ever, ends well does it, and almost invaribly makes you a jerkass... Look at the Vulcans, they only strictly speaking control them, and while Spock and Tuvok are nice guys, a lot of the other Vulcans come off as right barstewards, and that's only repressing. Not saying the Vulcans don't have a good reason to, mind, just that the solution is the least bad rather than the most good.)



It's just that the premise of saying "this philosphy and only this one is objectively right and all others, even if on the same lines alignment-wise, are wrong, and it's fundementally written into physical laws of the universe to say so" - which is far beyond even protagonist shields - I find so inherently offensive I can't actually articulate it, least of all on a polite board like this one.



Right, I think I've blathered enough, so I'll go and be quiet now.

Tiki Snakes
2012-03-08, 02:46 PM
I think the confusion comes from the fact that Kamina frequently and loudly spouts lots of awesome (and often acknoledged in-universe dumb) stuff about how a real man should act, and what a Real Man(tm) is capable of, etc. This gets confused with Spiral Power itself, but is not strictly speaking the same thing, more just that particular characters own idiosyncrasy.

(And possibly at least partially just him bluffing the universe with sheer bravado, anyway).

EDIT -
You should probably just watch it and find out what your own opinion on it all is, to be honest Commander. It would be time well spent if nothing else.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-08, 03:05 PM
I think the confusion comes from the fact that Kamina frequently and loudly spouts lots of awesome (and often acknoledged in-universe dumb) stuff about how a real man should act, and what a Real Man(tm) is capable of, etc. This gets confused with Spiral Power itself, but is not strictly speaking the same thing, more just that particular characters own idiosyncrasy.

(And possibly at least partially just him bluffing the universe with sheer bravado, anyway).

The thought that it might partly be Rock Lee/Might Guy (who are awesome, by the way) Fires of Youth! over-the-top gubbins had occurred to me (certainly the omnipresent references seemed indicate that); which is why I was having such difficulty believing anyone would espouse that as the only path to enlightenment, as it were, in complete seriousness. (And I mean in a philosphically serious fashion, not from the character's own perspective, I don't doubt Lee and Guy - et al - fully believe everything they say...) As that would veer right off funny and into bad places.

Have I mentioned I'm rubbish at quiet...?

Selrahc
2012-03-08, 03:25 PM
And I will cheerful agree that any idiot who disgards emotions is going to suffer for it in the long run

Nah.

Anyone who ignores emotions will probably suffer. Understanding emotions is a key part of understanding a lot of things. It's stupid for *humans* to tamp down and attempt to destroy emotions, because that isn't how we operate at all, and will only cause psychological damage.

But an alien race that doesn't have them, and operates on some other basis entirely? I think that's viable. Why would it not be?

As far as this thread is concerned, I think the Xeelee do have emotions, but the perspective of the books never really gives a good enough view on them to be sure. But I'm just basing this on the stuff I've read on the internet, not having actually read the series.

Aotrs Commander
2012-03-08, 04:51 PM
Nah.

Anyone who ignores emotions will probably suffer. Understanding emotions is a key part of understanding a lot of things. It's stupid for *humans* to tamp down and attempt to destroy emotions, because that isn't how we operate at all, and will only cause psychological damage.

But an alien race that doesn't have them, and operates on some other basis entirely? I think that's viable. Why would it not be?

Something else like what? Logic? Like most (usually evil) technological races? (Because the things that eschew emotions then to use that a lot and it never ends well.)

Now, I'm all for aliens being alien, but I draw the line at the point you start to get into terms where they work on fundementally different principles. If you don't hav emotions, and you don't use logic, what else is there? Instinct? I honestly can't think of anything.

Or are we talking about something that should really only be the preview of things for the Dungeon Dimensions...?



(There's a really odd thought. Would such creatures, from outside of the universe, and barely subject ot it's laws - considering some of them, e.g. Rolemaster's Vlathachna, were badass enough to survive the desturution of their own Reality, have their own version of spiral power, so that they would use the power of squaaargth-Dimensional State-Shifted [Untranslateble Function Error] which is what Being A F'Tangz#har%Vt is all [non-Euclidean paradox]?)

Prime32
2012-03-08, 05:37 PM
So, the answer appears to be yes, it is about intensity and passion (etc), so a non-human mindset could effectively wield Spiral Power - provided they aren't stupid enough to have given up on emotions or think themselves so perfect they don't need to improve. (Which the Xeelee may well be; in which case I will cheerfully see them kicked to the curb.) So, yes, the answer to my first post would be yes, theoretically, if, and only IF, the Xeelee were capable of understanding the nature of Spiral Power, they probably could bugger off into their infinite time-space blahblahblah and pull out a Xeelee Protagonist (or Xeelee Servitor Race Protagonist) who would show up, doubtless to ramble about the Appropriately-Temperatured Metabolic Emotional Intensity which is what Being A Species is all about or somesuch. One complication: it's implied that since altruism benefits evolution, it's linked to Spiral Power. So the Xeelee would have to trick their pet Spirals if they wanted them to attack anyone, which could backfire horribly.

Selrahc
2012-03-08, 05:43 PM
Something else like what? Logic? Like most (usually evil) technological races? (Because the things that eschew emotions then to use that a lot and it never ends well.)

Are you talking in terms of narrative cliches here then?

GloatingSwine
2012-03-08, 05:54 PM
One complication: it's implied that since altruism benefits evolution, it's linked to Spiral Power. So the Xeelee would have to trick their pet Spirals if they wanted them to attack anyone, which could backfire horribly.

The thing is, the Xeelee wouldn't really need or want anyone to attack anything. Their only real enemy is comprised of dark matter, which doesn't interact with baryonic matter (rather famously, in fact), and their only method of annoying it is to blow up suns, but only because they like to live in the gravity well and it means they have to go and find a new one.

Also, it's far more likely that the Xeelee would be a spiral race, they are an evolved race, albeit one that started a hell of a long time ago (longer than the age of the universe, because of cheating), and you don't stop evolving unless you stop breeding.

TheFallenOne
2012-03-08, 06:16 PM
It's entirely possible Viral's just brought along for the ride by the Spiral Power of Simon and friends, kinda like his entire purpose as Lagann's pilot. We see him sitting there doing nothing while Simon and Boonta are charging up super galaxy Gurren Lagann, if he had Spiral Power, why wasn't he helping?

In the second movie we see Viral conjure his own Tengen Toppa out of thin air. If that is no proof of spiral power I don't know what is.

And it's no plot hole either. Breaking the rules is one of the basic premises of the show, Viral overcoming his genetic limitation is entirely consistent with that.

Forum Explorer
2012-03-09, 06:21 AM
The thought that it might partly be Rock Lee/Might Guy (who are awesome, by the way) Fires of Youth! over-the-top gubbins had occurred to me (certainly the omnipresent references seemed indicate that); which is why I was having such difficulty believing anyone would espouse that as the only path to enlightenment, as it were, in complete seriousness. (And I mean in a philosphically serious fashion, not from the character's own perspective, I don't doubt Lee and Guy - et al - fully believe everything they say...) As that would veer right off funny and into bad places.

Have I mentioned I'm rubbish at quiet...?

TTGL is not a very serious show at all. Its a lot of fun and over the top with very few serious moments.

Devonix
2012-03-09, 07:01 AM
Viral's got Spiral power, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to escape the multidimensional labyrinth

As long as you have desire, will andcourage you can accomplish anything.

Remember the Anti Spirals aren't something seperate, they're just a Spiral race that has been doing it so long that they were that powerful. The Anti Spirals had been using and growing Spiral energy sinice before the creation of Human life.

Humanity got to their level in about 10 years.

jseah
2012-03-09, 01:07 PM
The multi-dimensional labyrinth in TTGL was done wrong. An illusion world is just that, an illusion. An illusion that does not mislead isn't going to work.

The Xeelee's false world trapping will not involve a prison or a peaceful nothing-happens happy illusion.

A true false world would be absolutely identical to the real world. No differences at all. Springing such a trap simply makes all the targets disappear and entering one appears as if nothing happened at all (and for that matter, all actions or tests will be exactly consistent with the target being in the real world).
Being in an illusion is no different to being outside it, except that the Xeelee have mysteriously given up and gone away. (or illusion Xeelee stick around and put up a fight before losing convincingly)

And there'll be another false layer outside the first one and another one outside that and so on.
Infinite layers to the Matrix.

TTGL has their victory destroying a galaxy or two and goes home. The Xeelee shrug at the empty Earth and set about working out a way to tolerate humans without 'disappearing' them.

HandofShadows
2012-03-09, 02:35 PM
Remember the Anti Spirals aren't something seperate, they're just a Spiral race that has been doing it so long that they were that powerful. The Anti Spirals had been using and growing Spiral energy sinice before the creation of Human life.


Actually, the anti-spirals had long ago stopped using spiral power due to the threat of the Spiral Nemesis. Everything they did was with technology, not spiral power.

Mando Knight
2012-03-09, 02:45 PM
Actually, the anti-spirals had long ago stopped using spiral power due to the threat of the Spiral Nemesis. Everything they did was with technology, not spiral power.

They sealed themselves away to halt the Spiral Nemesis. I'm pretty sure that the final battle, though, had to have been Spiral vs Spiral, since the Anti-Spiral King says they're fighting them with a form they're familiar with.

Kato
2012-03-09, 04:24 PM
Yeh, it's pretty obvious they had to use spiral power to do what they did... No way to achieve this with any other power, I think.

Fan
2012-03-09, 04:25 PM
They sealed themselves away to halt the Spiral Nemesis. I'm pretty sure that the final battle, though, had to have been Spiral vs Spiral, since the Anti-Spiral King says they're fighting them with a form they're familiar with.

Correction, they ASSUMED the form that the Spirals were familiar with in an attempt to crush their hope within a universe that the Anti Spiral had complete control over not only time and space but probability. They achieved THAT through technological means. There is no point to sealing yourself away from spiral power if that's what you're using. It's oxymoronic to even assume that could be a valid statement, self defeat at it's finest.

In the vein of technology though, I'd say the Anti Spirals were AT LEAST on par with the Xelee given their ability to control the random chance that the missile you fired MIGHT be a dud, or that you thought of the plan JUST in time, or that your risky maneuver might work. However spiral power basically says NO YOU! in the loudest fashion possible and breaks free of your invisible chains of fate binding.

I would also like to remind you of the Spiral Races ability to spontaneously produce galaxy+ sized robots from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf6lVnMoYY&feature=related)

And then of course, their ability to turn the Xelee super weapon into more spiral power, and then their own ability to remove your ability to have thought of a solution in time.

They literally have a gun that does that, why, because they wanted it to.

Even Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann isn't the height of the spiral's power, it is literal infinity.

And even Xelee is finite.

Kato
2012-03-09, 04:41 PM
Correction, they ASSUMED the form that the Spirals were familiar with in an attempt to crush their hope within a universe that the Anti Spiral had complete control over not only time and space but probability. They achieved THAT through technological means. There is no point to sealing yourself away from spiral power if that's what you're using. It's oxymoronic to even assume that could be a valid statement, self defeat at it's finest.


No? There is indeed a valid reason to use a limited, controlled amount of spiral power to be careful not all races in e universe run havoc with it and destroy the universe.
I can't guarantee that's what they use but it sure looks like it.

Fan
2012-03-09, 05:55 PM
No? There is indeed a valid reason to use a limited, controlled amount of spiral power to be careful not all races in e universe run havoc with it and destroy the universe.
I can't guarantee that's what they use but it sure looks like it.

They specifically state multiple times that they sealed their own spiral power away in order to avoid having anything to do with the Spiral Nemesis.

Your assumption is just that.. an assumption. With no basis in actual fact other than "It looks like it". Well a cancerous formation could just be a benign tumor, but just because it looks benign doesn't mean it is.

Devonix
2012-03-09, 09:04 PM
I think people are misunderstanding the whole sealing themselves away thing that the Antispirals did.

Remember they are existing in a seperate universe where they have hid their homeworld and. They act through the proxies of the Mugen robots and the agents that they seed on spiral planets like Nia.

Thats the entire reason that the Spiral races lost the previous war, The Antispirals sealed themselves away and their home bases could not be attacked.

Simon and the others don't encounter the Antispiral until they leave the universe behind and enter the one created by the Antispirals.



It parallels the conflict with Lordgenome

Lordgenome a spiral warrior seals himself in Teplinn and sends out Beastmen (aka non spiral creations) to keep humanity down as a way of protecting them from something beyond them

Antispiral a spiral warrior and his race seal themselves in their seperate universe and send out the Mugen (aka non spiral creations) to keep humanity and the other spiral races down to protect them from something beyond them


Antispiral fights them Drill to drill in the final battle. Hell in the movie he does a Giga Drill Breaker. Something tells me that he's still very capable of using spiral power.

HandofShadows
2012-03-10, 07:56 AM
Antispiral fights them Drill to drill in the final battle. Hell in the movie he does a Giga Drill Breaker. Something tells me that he's still very capable of using spiral power.

You didn't look closely enough at those drills. While the are drills, they are NOT spiral drills, Take a look.

http://gurrenlagann.wikia.com/index.php?title=Granzeboma&image=Vlcsnap-00016-jpg

Long stright groves down the sides of the drill. Not a spiral by any means. And not spiral powered either.

Devonix
2012-03-10, 09:41 AM
You didn't look closely enough at those drills. While the are drills, they are NOT spiral drills, Take a look.

http://gurrenlagann.wikia.com/index.php?title=Granzeboma&image=Vlcsnap-00016-jpg

Long stright groves down the sides of the drill. Not a spiral by any means. And not spiral powered either.

I stand corrected.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-10, 04:30 PM
How Anti-Spiral tech works is very ambiguous. The straight lines are suggestive but not conclusive. Spiral Power is easy because we know its there and exists but unless there's some clear Word of God out there I believe it remains unexplained entirely.

Certainly it remains true that the Anti-Spiral began as another Spiral race. Its roughly equally legit to suggest they were using a form of SP but because their own evolution was sealed by their will there was no chance of a Spiral Nemesis from them. Obviously whatever it was inherently limited though.

Its not like know how everything in the series works. Like what did the Grapearl's lack against the Mugann, if it was the basic level of SP what were they running on?

Prime32
2012-03-10, 06:06 PM
Its not like know how everything in the series works. Like what did the Grapearl's lack against the Mugann, if it was the basic level of SP what were they running on?You can run Ganmen on either Spiral Power or electricity, but the Beastmens' Ganmen had locks on their conventional reactors which caused them to shut down when used by humans. Since the Grapearls didn't have a lock and weren't piloted exclusively by hot-blooded people, the ability to run on Spiral Power was probably considered redundant.

MLai
2012-03-11, 02:33 AM
The show doesn't really deal with different cultures at all, and the most likely response of the main characters to someone different them themselves would be acceptance or somesuch.
MANLY acceptance.


(and at least one fabulous mechanic)
Being fab (or any other related words that you can think of) does not preclude "manly" or "Spiral Power." Look at Gilgamesh, Alexander The Great, and Hercules.
(Those are the examples that pop into my head because I've had too much Type Moon for the past few years.)


(Also, the use of the phrase "Manliness" or "Real Man" as an ideal in anything other the strictly humorous applications I find entirely unpalatable on a quintessential level, so I was a bit more sharp than I perhaps intended, for which I apologise.)
You're obviously thinking of an unpalatable IRL-bad version of "manliness." Spiral Power is about the TRUE version.


if, and only IF, the Xeelee were capable of understanding the nature of Spiral Power, they probably could bugger off into their infinite time-space blahblahblah and pull out a Xeelee Protagonist (or Xeelee Servitor Race Protagonist) who would show up,
In this case, the only possible scenario would be the SP protags would defeat the Xeelee dragon, by showing him THE ERROR OF HIS WAYS. And, DEFEAT EQUALS FRIENDSHIP, and they would all team up together to take on the Xeelee overlords.

Though to be fair, in reality SP protags and Xeelee have no reason to fight each other.

Prime32
2012-03-11, 08:03 AM
You're obviously thinking of an unpalatable IRL-bad version of "manliness." Spiral Power is about the TRUE version.
http://animanachronism.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/virtus.png
Basically, it's about determination and love.

MLai
2012-03-11, 08:21 AM
omg now I know the meaning of GAR. :smallcool: