Primarchs vs Exalted

[Maquise]

Let me start by saying I know precious little about Exalted, but I was wondering how an encounter between the pre-Heresy Primarchs and a group of Exalted would go down. (Would also help me get a feel for how powerful Exalted really are)

[Bitter]

It depends on whether you're going with Exalts as per the fluff or as per the mechanics.

One of the core charms that you can get at character creation is "No, I dodge that/No, I parry that/No, I am too tough to be hurt by that" style charms.

If a Primarch hits an Exalt with enough force to destroy a mountain range, the Exalt can just use the appropriate charm and it doesn't hurt them. However the fluff doesn't support this stupendous level of power and the Primarchs are much more likely to win (Depending on the Essence and type of Exalt they're against) if it is based on fluff rather than the Exalts as presented by their horribly broken mechanics.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If it's one group of exalted vs one primarch, a band of experienced Solars or Infernals could take them down. I peg their power somewhere between an essence 5 Solar and the First and Forsaken Lion.

If it's the First Age of Man in Exalted, and the Warhammer universe has found and invaded Creation somehow, the Dragon-Blooded number in the hundreds of thousands, and are able to match the Space Marines in terms of power. However, considering each legion of Space Marines numbers an average of about 130,000 (the wiki says anywhere between 10,000-250,000), and there are twenty of them, they outnumber the Dragon-Blooded. But then, we get to the levels of experience they have, as experienced Dragon-Blooded are leagues above a newly exalted one. Then, there's the Lunars, Sidereals, and Solars, who would likely send out any Full Moons, Chosen of Battles, Dawns, and Zeniths without much stealth skill to join the Dragon-Blooded against the Space Marines. There's also the numerous war machines that existed in the First Age, so the engineers and such will be rampaging across the battlefield in gigantic robots. The stealth guys will be sneaking in to attack the primarchs directly.

If the Warhammer universe found and invaded Creation at the current time, Creation is toast.

And, ah, Bitter? Solars are supposed to be superpowerful. They were expected to lead armies of Dragon-Blooded soon after exaltation, to kill the Primordials.

[Sanguine]

It depends on whether you're going with Exalts as per the fluff or as per the mechanics.

One of the core charms that you can get at character creation is "No, I dodge that/No, I parry that/No, I am too tough to be hurt by that" style charms.

If a Primarch hits an Exalt with enough force to destroy a mountain range, the Exalt can just use the appropriate charm and it doesn't hurt them. However the fluff doesn't support this stupendous level of power and the Primarchs are much more likely to win (Depending on the Essence and type of Exalt they're against) if it is based on fluff rather than the Exalts as presented by their horribly broken mechanics.

Wait. Are you seriously suggesting that the crunch makes Exalts more survivable than the fluff suggests? I have no words. None.

Anyway, I don't really know what Primarchs are. But the Exalted killed/maimed and imprisoned the Creators of the Universe. Admittedly that took the entirety of the Exalted Host, and there were undoubtedly countless casualties. But before the Primordial War no one even thought it was possible to truly kill a Primordial.

[TheCountAlucard]

Depends on a vast number of factors; the type of Exalted (Solar? Lunar? Alchemical? Terrestrial? Sidereal? Infernal? Abyssal?), the combat-specialization of said Exalt (An Eclipse Caste diplomat is probably not going to be combat-specced to beat the Primarch, but he could write him a letter so beautifully eloquent that the weeping Primarch dutifully surrenders), and the experience level (a 1000-xp, Essence 5 Exalt is probably going to wipe the floor with a Primarch), before we get into territories like what artifacts they might have, what the terrain's going to be like, and whether either side is leading a force of mortals.

It looks to me like the Primarchs could be modeled with Essence 3 mortals, provided you load them up with TMA, thaumaturgy, sorcery, and a ridiculous number of mutations, and maybe a few artifacts.

[Brother Oni]

There's also the numerous war machines that existed in the First Age, so the engineers and such will be rampaging across the battlefield in gigantic robots.

Do Exalted warmachines get as powerful as Adeptus Titanicus titans?
Even Emperor class titans which double nicely as anti-aircraft weapons platforms against ships in orbit?

Not a challenge, just a question as I'm not familiar with Exalted.

[The Glyphstone]

Even knowing how crazy powerful Primarchs are, I'm going with the Exalts unless they're newly Exalted. Primarchs are badass warriors to the umpteenth degree in personal combat, and command armies of slightly less badass warriors, but with the sole exception of Magnus, that's pretty much all they can do - punch the crap out of things. Solar Circle Sorcery, the little I know of it, is insane in the sort of things its rituals can pull off, and any decent Solar magician can learn them.

[Bitter]

And, ah, Bitter? Solars are supposed to be superpowerful. They were expected to lead armies of Dragon-Blooded soon after exaltation, to kill the Primordials.

Soon meaning decades or centuries later.

Solars are also supposed to have been regularily defeated by 5 - 10 Dragonblooded for 7+ centuries. Solars are supposed to be able to be hurt and be taken by surprise by things far more mundane than Primordials.

Although the Solars are supposed to be able to hold their own against crazy attacks, in the fluff they're not presented as being infallible and when they're parrying/dodging/shrugging off some incredible attack there is still the danger of them failing.

Perfect defenses are a game mechanic expressing the power of the Solars, not something that has been actually codified as part of the setting and fluff. It's the same way we're not assuming Primarch's will completely flub things with fairly frequent regularity just because the W40K rules are set out so there's a great degree of luck.

[Bitter]

Do Exalted warmachines get as powerful as Adeptus Titanicus titans?
Even Emperor class titans which double nicely as anti-aircraft weapons platforms against ships in orbit?

Not a challenge, just a question as I'm not familiar with Exalted.

Only in the first age where there was a massive magitech society run by 700 largely elder Exalts and even then these would have been very rare.

In the Second Age which the game is set in, a Solar would be lucky to be able to scavenge together some Fantasy-Punk power armour, let alone an actual huge war-machine.

[Sanguine]

Solars are also supposed to have been regularily defeated by 5 - 10 Dragonblooded for 7+ centuries. Solars are supposed to be able to be hurt and be taken by surprise by things far more mundane than Primordials.

You do realize that barring Paranoia combat 5-10 Mortals will murderlize an Exalt. Assuming they're smart and attacks as a group.

Also until recently the Wyld Hunt was filled with the most experienced Dragonblooded Warriors decked out with the best equipment vs guys who don't even know what the hell is going on. Also Teamwork is the Terrestrial's schtick so a group of them is much more powerful than the sum of it's parts. Or at least should be. It's not well represented by the mechanics.

[Bitter]

It's not well represented by the mechanics.

This, basically.

[Madwand]

Let me start by saying I know precious little about Exalted, but I was wondering how an encounter between the pre-Heresy Primarchs and a group of Exalted would go down. (Would also help me get a feel for how powerful Exalted really are)

Elder Solar Exalted by the fluff would be able to choke Void Dragon with bare hands. No, Primarch have no chance even against moderate combat-oriented Solar. Emperor could be Elder Solar but without power to regenerate/withstand that kind of damage like even freshly exalted can.


If it's the First Age of Man in Exalted, and the Warhammer universe has found and invaded Creation somehow, they would be tosted by Sword of Creation in five minutes

Fixed for you:smallsmile:


Perfect defenses are a game mechanic expressing the power of the Solars, not something that has been actually codified as part of the setting and fluff.

No. Perfect effect are part of setting and part of fluff. Every charm is.

[Gensh]

No. Perfect effect are part of setting and part of fluff. Every charm is.

In particular, back in the day, Qaf - the Heaven-Violating Spear, a mountain with neither summit nor base - invented perfection and then gave it to all his bros because he was chill like that. Perfection is a real thing in the Exalted universe, and any Solar with 16-20 XP and something like four weeks can learn a Perfect Dodge, which avoids even Perfect Attacks.

[TheCountAlucard]

In particular, back in the day, Qaf - the Heaven-Violating Spear, a mountain with neither summit nor base - invented perfection and then gave it to all his bros because he was chill like that.Was he still Qaf back then? :smallconfused:

Either way, kinda wish we could see some of his demons; that'd surely give us better insight into his personality and such. Currently he's just a big mountain that one of the other titans' footprints is obsessed with climbing. :smallsigh:

[Gensh]

Was he still Qaf back then? :smallconfused:

Either way, kinda wish we could see some of his demons; that'd surely give us better insight into his personality and such. Currently he's just a big mountain that one of the other titans' footprints is obsessed with climbing. :smallsigh:

Not quite the place for this discussion, but for the intents and purposes of canon, pre-Yozi Qaf is almost exactly the same, which is to say he's a mountain with neither summit nor base that we know nothing else about. The one thing we do know about him is that like the King, he was originally a generative force who was neutered by his transformation. I give his fetich soul as Gnomon, the Lord Under the Mountain (Lord Genome), but that's just a fanon thing.

For this discussion, here's the relevant quote:


The endless mountain Qaf was once great among the ranks of the Primordials. He was the primeval axis mundi in the time before Creation, when the titans marshaled themselves amidst the Faraway against the first reflexive efforts of the Unshaped to dissolve them back into the primal Chaos. He invented the principle of perfection as a defense against the hunger of the Wyld, a concept he shared freely with his Primordial peers.

[Selrahc]

However, considering each legion of Space Marines numbers an average of about 130,000 (the wiki says anywhere between 10,000-250,000), and there are twenty of them,

Bad maths.
Ultramarines outnumber any other legion by an order of magnitude. Most legions would probably have 30000-50000. The smallest legions like the Thousand Sons probably have even less than 10000.

[hamishspence]

The Raven Guard aren't called out as especially big, and had 80,000 (Imperial Armour 8: Raid on Kastorel Novem.)

The "typical" number of Space Marines per legion may be a bit higher than 30,000 to 50,000- though the Ultramarines were an extreme outlier. I think Collected Visions described 100,000 per legion as the norm.

[TheCountAlucard]

If the Warhammer universe found and invaded Creation at the current time, Creation is toast.Well, hold on a sec... do the folk of the WH40K universe carry causality around with them like the Creation-born explicitly do?

Because if not, then a single Fair Folk could probably handle it.

[Bitter]

No. Perfect effect are part of setting and part of fluff. Every charm is.

I might have missed it, but where is this stated?

Also it's worth pointing out that everyone forgets that perfect attacks aren't actually perfect even in mechanical terms as they all have flaws.

Got the valour flaw but the Primarch is in some flying contraption you can't move towards? Perfect doesn't work.

Fighting a Primarch Solo without any of the people you have intimacies towards nearby? No Compassion perfect.

Need to actually move from the spot you're standing in? Better not have Temperence as your flaw.

And then Conviction flaw is the one that will almost always apply because Exalted mechanics suck and there is one Virtue Flaw that is obviously better than all the others.

But still, if we're assuming NPC style Exalt construction rather than PC optimised construction then using perfect could be impossible for Exalts under some conditions or seriously penalise them in others.

[AmberVael]

Let me start by saying I know precious little about Exalted, but I was wondering how an encounter between the pre-Heresy Primarchs and a group of Exalted would go down. (Would also help me get a feel for how powerful Exalted really are)

Saying "a group of Exalted" is like saying "a group of wizards" or "a group of heroes." Exalted in general do not have a set power level at all. If you have a newly exalted terrestrial, a hail of arrows would sort them out in a second. If you have a group of solars from the first age, then these are the kind of people who will defy all laws ever if they so feel like, with the exception of time and death (and they can bend the latter somewhat).

[TheCountAlucard]

Got the valour flaw but the Primarch is in some flying contraption you can't move towards? Perfect doesn't work.Eagle Wing Style. The Wings mutation. Fair Folk artifacts. Power armor. Wings of the Raptor. Easy.


Fighting a Primarch Solo without any of the people you have intimacies towards nearby? No Compassion perfect.Have an Intimacy toward yourself. Easy.


Need to actually move from the spot you're standing in? Better not have Temperence as your flaw.Acuity of the Far-Flung Hand. Now you can perform complex neurosurgery from range, let alone whatever it is you need to do that necessitates moving. Easy.

Plus, you can take more than one Flaw of Invulnerability, and switch between them as needed.

[nyarlathotep]

Part of the problem the way I see it is both universes have "no I win" rules. Which really isn't comparable and will end with people arguing over which "no I win" button beats the other. So one could argue for instance that Lucius the eternal could kill the entire Exalted universe because he keeps taking over the body of his killer and the rules only give one very specific way to over come this. Then one could also argue that a properly specced Solar can just plain dodge everything period. It gets you nowhere really because of the over the topness of the two universes.

Then again my personal canon for 40k is that all life in the unverse is exterminated by a sufficiently fed Doom of Malan'tai.

[Bitter]

Eagle Wing Style. The Wings mutation. Fair Folk artifacts. Power armor. Wings of the Raptor. Easy.

All very rare, very specific and don't allow the Exalt to move anywhere near as fast as a cool space vehicle anyway. Look at the sample Exalts in Scroll of Heroes. How many of them have things like this?


Have an Intimacy toward yourself. Easy.

:smallamused: I guessed someone would have said this, but I thought they'd at least say you could have an intimacy towards your Daiklave or something.

But no.


Acuity of the Far-Flung Hand. Now you can perform complex neurosurgery from range, let alone whatever it is you need to do that necessitates moving. Easy.

An Essence 5 charm which it will take the average Solar a few hundred years to reach.

I didn't say that Primarchs would always beat Exalts, just that it's more competitive when it's based on fluff (So why we're talking about mechanics I have no idea) but when your answers rely more and more on very niche high Essence charms and the like, it's just backs up what I'm saying.


Plus, you can take more than one Flaw of Invulnerability, and switch between them as needed.

He can only get two different Flaws, not get all four. Also would you care to point out the amount of canon Exalts which have bought a perfect twice? Is there even one? Hell, there are plenty which don't even have a perfect!

[TheCountAlucard]

All very rare...Not in particular.


...very specific...Not really.


...and don't allow the Exalt to move anywhere near as fast as a cool space vehicle anyway.Doesn't matter; the point is to be able to move toward it. Also, there are Charms that let you go just a little faster than your target.


Look at the sample Exalts in Scroll of Heroes. How many of them have things like this?First of all, there are no "sample Exalts" in Scroll of Heroes. Second, I'm more inclined to concern myself with First Age examples, seeing how the OP got to specify "pre-Heresy" Primarchs.


I guessed someone would have said this, but I thought they'd at least say you could have an intimacy towards your Daiklave or something.Why bother? It's just a daiklave.


But no.Why?


An Essence 5 charm which it will take the average Solar a few hundred years to reach.First of all, Essence 5, nor the Charms therein, take "a few hundred years" to reach, especially in the First Age, where there are powerful Training Charms and memory crystals and Sidereal-led tutoring.


I didn't say that Primarchs would always beat Exalts, just that it's more competitive when it's based on fluff (So why we're talking about mechanics I have no idea) but when your answers rely more and more on very niche high Essence charms and the like, it's just backs up what I'm saying.But see, what you're saying is, "Their perfects don't always work." What I basically said was, "There are ways to make them work," but I probably should have said, "Don't give me crap about perfects not working, because with Exalted's current mechanical mess, an Exalt whose perfects don't work is practically guaranteed to die instantly in one hit, which is something really not conducive to the whole 'heroic' thing; basically, if you're saying 'perfects don't work,' it pretty much equates to 'Primarchs win,' whether it was your intention or not."

Also, currently, the fluff and crunch of Exalted are tied at the hip - a discussion about one is going to instantly and irrevocably invite discussion of the other.

Oh, well, hindsight, 20/20, and all that.

[deuterio12]

Part of the problem the way I see it is both universes have "no I win" rules. Which really isn't comparable and will end with people arguing over which "no I win" button beats the other. So one could argue for instance that Lucius the eternal could kill the entire Exalted universe because he keeps taking over the body of his killer and the rules only give one very specific way to over come this. Then one could also argue that a properly specced Solar can just plain dodge everything period. It gets you nowhere really because of the over the topness of the two universes.


On the contrary, in 40K the prevailing rule is "no I lose" buttons.

The primarchs for example. Despite suposedly being the emperor's greatest creations, they're now all completely corrupted, lost in the warp, comatose, dead, or worst.

Compare with Exalted that are still kicking around despite all the efforts in taking (and keeping) them down.

Lucius is a very exceptional case in 40K of someone that doesn't stay dead easy, and even then there's emo Exalted that never seem to enjoy anything so no big deal taking him down.

No matter how heroic your 40K character is, you can bet he's going to meet an ignobile end sooner or later. If he's really lucky he may die of old age. Heck, the emperor himself was reduced to a rotting corpse that's used as a giant light bulb.

This is, ever readed the Horus Heresy books? Simple barbed wire is enough to pin down a legion of SM even when led by their primarch!

[Bitter]

Not in particular.

The least rare would in my judgement be a three dot artefact. These are not things typical characters have.

If a decently powerful Exalt really needed to find one of these, they could go out and track one down after some excitement and adventure but typically characters don't have this kind of thing to hand until you start to get to higher Essence. If you're assuming a high essence character, then again this fits in with what I was saying.


Not really.

Fairly specific. As an example it's not like every martial art lets you fly, just one specific one. Not all Fair Folk artefacts, just the tiny minority of them that have been crafted with that in mind. One particular mutation that only People of the Air and people who happen to have that mutation will have, which is such a tiny minority of people that it's irrelevant.


Doesn't matter; the point is to be able to move toward it.

True.


Also, there are Charms that let you go just a little faster than your target.

Isn't this a Lunar charm?


First of all, there are no "sample Exalts" in Scroll of Heroes. Second, I'm more inclined to concern myself with First Age examples, seeing how the OP got to specify "pre-Heresy" Primarchs.

Meant Scroll of Exalts. As for First age, it again depends on what type you're talking about and at what experience although that would give them access to a much bigger arsenal of weapons and so they would be able to take a Primarch on at a lower Essence level than a Second age variant.


Why?

1) You don't count as being in your own presence.
2) It's obviously not what the rules intended.
3) Not a weeaboo.


First of all, Essence 5, nor the Charms therein, take "a few hundred years" to reach, especially in the First Age, where there are powerful Training Charms and memory crystals and Sidereal-led tutoring.

Back this up, because all the evidence says otherwise.

Contentious Sword is 200+ years old and eligible for either essence 6 or 7 but is only Essence 4.

Dancer in Light is 700+ years old and eligible for Essence 8+ but is only Essence 6.

Salina is a millennia+ years old and qualifies for Essence 10 but is only Essence 7.

All the other Solars listed in it are millennia old and basically the oldest Solars in all of existence and do have Essence 10.

You're confusing standard Exalts with PC exalts, who by virtue of being PCs advance incredibly quickly compared to the norm.


But see, what you're saying is, "Their perfects don't always work." What I basically said was, "There are ways to make them work," but I probably should have said, "Don't give me crap about perfects not working, because with Exalted's current mechanical mess, an Exalt whose perfects don't work is practically guaranteed to die instantly in one hit, which is something really not conducive to the whole 'heroic' thing; basically, if you're saying 'perfects don't work,' it pretty much equates to 'Primarchs win,' whether it was your intention or not."

Really that's mechanical, which is what I'm trying to get away from. I'm not advocating Primarchs win or Exalts win point blank, more that Primarchs are a good match for mid-level exalts, would stomp on low Essence Exalts and get stomped on themselves by Elders.


Also, currently, the fluff and crunch of Exalted are tied at the hip - a discussion about one is going to instantly and irrevocably invite discussion of the other.

Oh, well, hindsight, 20/20, and all that.

For things that are tied at the hip, I seem to be the only one bringing it up.

[TheCountAlucard]

The least rare would in my judgement be a three dot artefact. These are not things typical characters have.I should have pointed this out before, but the Exalted are hardly "typical characters," even in their own world.

Also, yes, three-dot artifacts are rare. So are Celestial Exaltations; in fact, they're even rarer, as there's only 700 of them in all Creation. Comparatively, there's actually more three-dot artifacts.

Also also, the Wings mutation can be granted to oneself via Science of Mutation at Essence 4.


As an example it's not like every martial art lets you fly, just one specific one.More along the lines of, "not every martial art has a Join Battle enhancer." The fact that I was able to name off so many just off the top of my head, without touching a book (and believe me, there are more ways in the books), should've been an indicator.


Not all Fair Folk artefacts, just the tiny minority of them that have been crafted with that in mind.You should see the number meschlum's come up with. I'd hardly call it a tiny minority.


One particular mutation that only People of the Air and people who happen to have that mutation will have, which is such a tiny minority of people that it's irrelevant.Again, Science of Mutation. If you're an Exalt who wants wings, you'll damn well have them.


Isn't this a Lunar charm?It's also a Sidereal Martial Arts Charm and a Fair Folk Charm.


You don't count as being in your own presence.I don't see why not, unless we wanna start considering solipsism as a serious thing, in which case, it's doubtful that others are in your presence either.


Not a weeaboo.I don't even know how to respond to that.


You're confusing standard Exalts with PC exalts, who by virtue of being PCs advance incredibly quickly compared to the norm.Frankly, I don't think there should be a difference.


I'm not advocating Primarchs win or Exalts win point blank, more that Primarchs are a good match for mid-level exalts, would stomp on low Essence Exalts and get stomped on themselves by Elders.But that's the thing; there's no real point on the scale where you can say, "Okay, this is a mid-level Exalt, and this is a high-level Exalt." Really, there isn't.

Also, I don't think that low-Essence Exalts would be doomed, either.


For things that are tied at the hip, I seem to be the only one bringing it up.No, believe me, you aren't; this conversation's been had a hundred or a thousand times before, on as many threads, on as many forums.

Mechanics have been brought to the table again and again, and the only thing they could come to an accord on was that both sides now hated each other.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, believe me, you aren't; this conversation's been had a hundred or a thousand times before, on as many threads, on as many forums.

Mechanics have been brought to the table again and again, and the only thing they could come to an accord on was that both sides now hated each other.

Yep. At this point, we just talk about the rest of the game and try not to break it too hard when we play.

[Bitter]

I should have pointed this out before, but the Exalted are hardly "typical characters," even in their own world.

Exalts aren't a typical example of the humans of Creation, I was talking about them as typical examples of humans in Creation.

I was referring to what is typical for Exalts themselves, as we know enough about them to make judgements of what can be expected of Exalts. After all, if we didn't then you wouldn't be able to make your claims either.

The difference is that as this conversation keeps on getting dragged back onto mechanics, I actually offer mechanical examples from the book like referring to the sheets of characters from the specific time period and splat book you were referencing.


Also, yes, three-dot artifacts are rare. So are Celestial Exaltations; in fact, they're even rarer, as there's only 700 of them in all Creation. Comparatively, there's actually more three-dot artifacts.

Yes, there are more than 700 3 dot artefacts. Exalts don't have an automatic "Own everything less rare then them power though."

As you're not referring to the standard setting but you indicated in your last post that you wanted to refer to DotFA characters then this is a moot point what with Panapoly and Arsenal.


Also also, the Wings mutation can be granted to oneself via Science of Mutation at Essence 4.

And the number of Exalts who have done so is...?

I mean it's possible, but that doesn't mean any of them will. I think we're going at cross-purposes anyway. You have to realise that Exalts could attain these would be incredibly rare. If we're talking about a Solar who had prep-time or was optimised rather than typical than sure. Otherwise, no.


More along the lines of, "not every martial art has a Join Battle enhancer." The fact that I was able to name off so many just off the top of my head, without touching a book (and believe me, there are more ways in the books), should've been an indicator.

Your knowledge of exalted charms and a Solars likelihood of knowing that charm aren't correlated unless the Solar in question is your PC.



It's also a Sidereal Martial Arts Charm and a Fair Folk Charm.

The assumption has been we're talking about Solars until now, so either we including other character types or this is only applicable to a minority of Solars by default.


I don't see why not, unless we wanna start considering solipsism as a serious thing, in which case, it's doubtful that others are in your presence either.

Because allowing you to be in your own presence is an equivocation which distorts the actual meaning. If your ST would let you have it, fine, but there's no way I or anyone I've played with would allow the rules to be read like that.


Frankly, I don't think there should be a difference.

But there it is, and the fluff supports it being like the NPCs rather than uber PCs.


But that's the thing; there's no real point on the scale where you can say, "Okay, this is a mid-level Exalt, and this is a high-level Exalt." Really, there isn't.

Also, I don't think that low-Essence Exalts would be doomed, either.

Around Essence 5 - 6 then is where I think it would be a good match. Filial Wisdom kind of level.


No, believe me, you aren't; this conversation's been had a hundred or a thousand times before, on as many threads, on as many forums.

Mechanics have been brought to the table again and again, and the only thing they could come to an accord on was that both sides now hated each other.

I was referring to this thread and fluff rather than the internet and crunch.

[Ravens_cry]

In particular, back in the day, Qaf - the Heaven-Violating Spear, a mountain with neither summit nor base - invented perfection and then gave it to all his bros because he was chill like that. Perfection is a real thing in the Exalted universe, and any Solar with 16-20 XP and something like four weeks can learn a Perfect Dodge, which avoids even Perfect Attacks.
At least we know who wins in the Immovable Object/Irresistible Force thought experiment in the Exalted-verse.

[Bitter]

Nope, because then there are applicability trumping perfect attacks which still hit you if you're perfectly defending.

But then there are applicability trumping perfect defences which still defend you even if you're being attacked with an applicability trumping perfect attack.

And round it goes...

[Xefas]

Nope, because then there are applicability trumping perfect attacks which still hit you if you're perfectly defending.

But then there are applicability trumping perfect defences which still defend you even if you're being attacked with an applicability trumping perfect attack.

And round it goes...

Actually, it doesn't. That's where it ends. The "I perfectly defend even if you say I can't perfectly defend". That's the end.

But, anyway. I don't think the thread is going to go anywhere without more concrete parameters. The only thing I can definitively state is that if we're comparing a number of primarchs to an equivalent number of Essence 10 Solar-tier Exalted, then the Exalted win.

Now, we don't actually know what Essence 10 Solar charms are like, true. But we do know what Essence 10 Infernal charms are capable of, by virtue of the Yozi. We know that, at Essence 10, Infernals do things like Be Infinitely Large, and Make Nigh-Infinite Armies Out of Nothing But My Rage, and Make More Exalted, and Turn Anything Into Anything Else.

And we know that Solars and Abyssals are meant to be roughly balanced with that.

[The Glyphstone]

First of all, there are no "sample Exalts" in Scroll of Heroes. Second, I'm more inclined to concern myself with First Age examples, seeing how the OP got to specify "pre-Heresy" Primarchs.


That's kind of because Post-Heresy, almost all the Primarchs are dead. Not much of a fight if your opponents are corpses, Deathlords aside.

[Bitter]

Though if he still lives Leman Russ would be super hardcore after millennia of battling deamonic forces in the Eye of Terror.

[Xefas]

I don't think its been pointed out yet but, humorously, in a "The Primarchs show up to Creation to fight the Exalted" scenario, there's a good chance the Primarchs will Exalt by virtue of having the balls to fight the Exalted. :smallcool:

Just saying, a Slayer Caste Leman Russ could probably just wrap up the 40k setting in a few centuries. :smalltongue:

[The_Final_Stand]

Though if he still lives Leman Russ would be super hardcore after millennia of battling deamonic forces in the Eye of Terror.

This statement implies he was not hardcore beforehand.

[TheCountAlucard]

That's kind of because Post-Heresy, almost all the Primarchs are dead.What about the Daemon Princes? :smallconfused:

[tyckspoon]

What about the Daemon Princes? :smallconfused:

Most of them aren't/weren't Primarchs; Daemon Princes largely come from other champions of Chaos who were rewarded with daemonhood.

[TheCountAlucard]

Most of them aren't/weren't Primarchs; Daemon Princes largely come from other champions of Chaos who were rewarded with daemonhood.Fair enough; I was just pointing out that not all the Primarchs died.

On another note, do you think that in the event of an invasion of WH40K-types, the Unconquered Sun would declare them Creatures of Darkness?

[Eldan]

I don't think its been pointed out yet but, humorously, in a "The Primarchs show up to Creation to fight the Exalted" scenario, there's a good chance the Primarchs will Exalt by virtue of having the balls to fight the Exalted. :smallcool:

Just saying, a Slayer Caste Leman Russ could probably just wrap up the 40k setting in a few centuries. :smalltongue:

This is what the thread should be about now. What would hte Primarchs and various other 40k personnel exalt into?

I think Abyssal Kharn would be a fun guy.

[tyckspoon]

On another note, do you think that in the event of an invasion of WH40K-types, the Unconquered Sun would declare them Creatures of Darkness?

Demons: Almost certainly.
Other Chaos-affiliated groups: Probably.
Others: Not unless they directly attacked/offended him.

[Xefas]

The Unconquered Sun would do the exact same thing in the event of a 40k invasion that he has done for every apocalyptic invasion since the end of the Primordial War.

Which is to say, he'll ignore it and continue playing divine air-hockey.

Solars do have Terrible Sun-King Condemnation which, combined with something to extend their social attack range, could conceivably declare Space Marines (or whatever faction) as creatures of darkness.

The extent of what that would do is entirely dependent on how Essence and The Warp interact.

[deuterio12]

I don't think its been pointed out yet but, humorously, in a "The Primarchs show up to Creation to fight the Exalted" scenario, there's a good chance the Primarchs will Exalt by virtue of having the balls to fight the Exalted. :smallcool:


They cannot as they're too old. Exaltation does have an age limit. Not to mention they aren't humans either.

Plus the argument of "if you try to face an exalt you exalt yourself" is beyond ridiculous. Exalted enemies don't exalt themselves just because they decide to stand on their path.

Really, on the very start of the Exalted book there's some monsters, minor gods and thugs that try to take on an exalted group in turn. Do any of them exalt? Nope.

[Brother Oni]

I think Abyssal Kharn would be a fun guy.

That's implying he wasn't a fun guy before. :smalltongue:

[Sanguine]

They cannot as they're too old. Exaltation does have an age limit.

No it doesn't. There is a preferred age range but canon characters have exalted outside of that range. The only hard limits are that you have to be human and you have to be willing to use the immense power of the Exalted. Though Sidereal Exaltations have a couple more.

[Volthawk]

They cannot as they're too old. Exaltation does have an age limit. Not to mention they aren't humans either.

Plus the argument of "if you try to face an exalt you exalt yourself" is beyond ridiculous. Exalted enemies don't exalt themselves just because they decide to stand on their path.

Really, on the very start of the Exalted book there's some monsters, minor gods and thugs that try to take on an exalted group in turn. Do any of them exalt? Nope.

It's not particularly that you can't Exalt if you're too old, it's more that the Exaltation tends to not choose people that are old and crippled - it wants hosts that are healthy and in full control of their limbs and senses, and age tends to bring its infirmities and weakness. And given all the genetic enhancements and crap the Primarchs went under, I don't think them simply being old matters so much, so long as they still have that strength and health of body and mind. Even then, there are still exceptions where someone got chosen for Exaltation despite his limitations.

[TheCountAlucard]

It's not particularly that you can't Exalt if you're too old, it's more that the Exaltation tends to not choose people that are old and crippled - it wants hosts that are healthy and in full control of their limbs and senses, and age tends to bring its infirmities and weakness. And given all the genetic enhancements and crap the Primarchs went under, I don't think them simply being old matters so much, so long as they still have that strength and health of body and mind.Ahh, but see, mutations actually count as a strike against them in the same way a missing limb would.

[Xefas]

As was stated, being old doesn't matter. But 'being human', strictly speaking, doesn't matter so much either. The Exaltation needs a particular kind of soul - one that humans have. The soul is what matters; not the body.

For instance, the genetically altered Djala are perfectly fine Exalted candidates. So are folks mutated by the Wyld (up to a certain point - once the Wyld warps their soul, they stop being so).

Heck, Infernals can alter themselves until they are worlds and countless people unto themselves, and they don't stop being 'human' so far as the Exaltation is concerned, until they decide to give up their soul to become a purely conceptual being (something like a Chaos God).

Unless Space Marines have big chunks of their soul torn out as part of their indoctrination, they qualify easily.

As for 'not everyone who fights an Exalted becomes one', that's true, but it could be for many factors. Firstly, there aren't a lot of Exaltations floating around. Millions of perfectly worthy candidates throughout history have gone without simply because there wasn't a shard available. And secondly, doing one awesome thing isn't enough. You have to be willing to take the power given to you and have the confidence and willpower to wield it for your millennial lifespan to shape the cosmos according to your desire.

Your average thug is not ambitious or strong willed or megalomaniacal enough to become an Exalt. But I think a Primarch might qualify. (Although, the most obvious Solar candidate is Ciaphas Cain anyway =P)

[The Glyphstone]

And man would he hate it.

[deuterio12]

As was stated, being old doesn't matter. But 'being human', strictly speaking, doesn't matter so much either. The Exaltation needs a particular kind of soul - one that humans have. The soul is what matters; not the body.

For instance, the genetically altered Djala are perfectly fine Exalted candidates. So are folks mutated by the Wyld (up to a certain point - once the Wyld warps their soul, they stop being so).

Thing is, the primarchs aren't modified humans. They may look like humans, but they're actually engineered from the ground up in some lab by the emperor. And then partially corrupted by the chaos gods before they were born. Since none of the human-looking creatures in Exalted ever exalted, neither can the primarchs.



Heck, Infernals can alter themselves until they are worlds and countless people unto themselves, and they don't stop being 'human' so far as the Exaltation is concerned, until they decide to give up their soul to become a purely conceptual being (something like a Chaos God).

Unless Space Marines have big chunks of their soul torn out as part of their indoctrination, they qualify easily.

Then they don't qualify as well. Leaving their humanity behind is half the brainwashing indoctrination of the SM. They'll dully butcher a planet down to the last women and child if given the order. They're basically killing machines of flesh with some metal on top, that are taught some fancy words and littanies to try to keep them busy when there's no more targets to kill and prevent them from being corrupted by chaos too easily.

The fact that, despite living centuries, cannot come up with any new ideas and just keep repeating the same things is an undeniable proof that whatever human soul they had has been shredded into tiny pieces.




As for 'not everyone who fights an Exalted becomes one', that's true, but it could be for many factors. Firstly, there aren't a lot of Exaltations floating around. Millions of perfectly worthy candidates throughout history have gone without simply because there wasn't a shard available. And secondly, doing one awesome thing isn't enough. You have to be willing to take the power given to you and have the confidence and willpower to wield it for your millennial lifespan to shape the cosmos according to your desire.

Half the primarchs basically sold their souls to chaos.
Guilman somehow managed to get himself poisoned despite SM being immune to poison.
The others died or threw themselves to the warp, that if nothing else, shows they have neither confidence or willpower to try to shape anything as they could've done much more if they've stayed guiding their legions. Even the chaos prince primarchs just sit at their planets doing nothing, except for Angrom that sometimes goes on a rampage. Only to be stalled by imperial guard.:smallwink:



Your average thug is not ambitious or strong willed or megalomaniacal enough to become an Exalt. But I think a Primarch might qualify. (Although, the most obvious Solar candidate is Ciaphas Cain anyway =P)

Considering that those thugs mug gods and face exalts head on, and Cephias Cain runs away at every oportunity, I fail to see how that comissar has more ambition or will than said thugs.

[Xefas]

Welp, you clearly know more about Warhammer than I do. I'll defer to your expertise.

[GloatingSwine]

The others died or threw themselves to the warp, that if nothing else, shows they have neither confidence or willpower to try to shape anything as they could've done much more if they've stayed guiding their legions. Even the chaos prince primarchs just sit at their planets doing nothing, except for Angrom that sometimes goes on a rampage. Only to be stalled by imperial guard.:smallwink:


Which proves that no force in Warhammer 40k is equal to the task of overcoming Games Workshop's reluctance to advance the setting in any way.

[TheCountAlucard]

Which proves that no force in Warhammer 40k is equal to the task of overcoming Games Workshop's reluctance to advance the setting in any way.I forget, but haven't they written themselves into a corner with regard to the whole "40k" thing? Like, that pretty much the entirety of the year 40,000's been used up, leaving GW stuck at 11:59 on New Year's Eve? :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

The latest edition actually breached the 41K mark, I think. The name stayed the same, though.

[TheCountAlucard]

That just shows how behind the times I am. :smalltongue:

[Misery Esquire]

I forget, but haven't they written themselves into a corner with regard to the whole "40k" thing? Like, that pretty much the entirety of the year 40,000's been used up, leaving GW stuck at 11:59 on New Year's Eve? :smalltongue:

Well, by Cain canon, M42 has the Imperium, or at least the Inquisition still in exsistance, since his "biography" is being published in that time by Amberley Vail.

Also, don't bother believing everything Deuterio says, he tends to exaggerate how terrible things are in Warhammer, unless it's about Tau. :smallsigh:

[The Glyphstone]

Not your fault, it only took them 5 editions and 21 years.

[Bitter]

Thing is, the primarchs aren't modified humans. They may look like humans, but they're actually engineered from the ground up in some lab by the emperor. And then partially corrupted by the chaos gods before they were born. Since none of the human-looking creatures in Exalted ever exalted, neither can the primarchs.

Lintha, even Time of Glory Lintha, could Exalt because although they were a separately created race they had the same souls as humans and it's souls that Exaltations attach to.

Whether Primarchs can exalt would depend upon if they have the same souls as humans rather than their genetic make-up.


Then they don't qualify as well. Leaving their humanity behind is half the brainwashing indoctrination of the SM. They'll dully butcher a planet down to the last women and child if given the order. They're basically killing machines of flesh with some metal on top, that are taught some fancy words and littanies to try to keep them busy when there's no more targets to kill and prevent them from being corrupted by chaos too easily.

They don't have to be nice. Many Exalts are spiteful sociopathic villains.

They just have to be heroic in the original Greek meaning of the word (Sometimes not even that) and display one or two virtues. Note that Valour is one of the virtues in question, and unceasingly slaughtering deadly opponents would qualify.

Space Marines do vary a lot and the more emotionless killing machines would be far less likely to get an Exaltation (Although some still would, as dedicated demonic cult assassins have had Solar Exaltations according to canon), but there is a fair bit of variety in how Space Marines act. Space Wolves, for one, are a lot less stoic.

[Gensh]

Lintha, even Time of Glory Lintha, could Exalt because although they were a separately created race they had the same souls as humans and it's souls that Exaltations attach to.

Whether Primarchs can exalt would depend upon if they have the same souls as humans rather than their genetic make-up.

I thought real Lintha were invalid but modern Lintha were okay because after a while, they were just humans with a vague demonic taint rather than members of a separate species. (Though I still retain my fanon that humans are the children of Cytherea.)

[Fan]

Well, by Cain canon, M42 has the Imperium, or at least the Inquisition still in exsistance, since his "biography" is being published in that time by Amberley Vail.

Also, don't bother believing everything Deuterio says, he tends to exaggerate how terrible things are in Warhammer, unless it's about Tau. :smallsigh:

Just popping in to say backed on the Deuterio thing. I've read dozens upon dozens of warhammer novels, with Space Marines as my particular favorite (Blood Angels, and Grey Knights. <3)

Though honestly, I don't see the GEoM disagreeing too much with The Unconquerable Sun, and his fellows.

It's the Abyssals, Infernals, Terrestrials, and everyone not a glorious example of shining light he would hate with an all ending fury.

Though I shudder to think of what a Dawn Caste God Emperor of Mankind would be like.

Oh..wait..



http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/294/5/3/god_empress_celestia_by_johnjoseco-d4dgxjv.png

[Xefas]

Though honestly, I don't see the GEoM disagreeing too much with The Unconquerable Sun, and his fellows.

It's the Abyssals, Infernals, Terrestrials, and everyone not a glorious example of shining light he would hate with an all ending fury.

The Unconquered Sun and the Solar Exalted are entirely different kettles of fish. Solars are power-mad self-righteous jerks - they would fit in with the Imperium perfectly. And I don't necessarily mean that to rag on the Imperium (they're still a faction in W40k, afterall). As big golden war-gods with a generally callous disregard for mortal life that only grows stronger with age, I think they would get along.

The Unconquered Sun, on the other hand, would be attempting to reform the Imperium into something less dark on the 40k greyscale. If he couldn't do this for some reason, he would actively oppose them. I'm not sure how adversarial the Imperium would be against the reforms of someone who basically looks like a four-armed God Emperor who is also a sun, though. In particular, I kinda wonder if the Adepta Sororitas would see him as some kind of false idol, or if they'd just be all hot and bothered :smalltongue:.

I'm not sure why they'd have a problem with Terrestrials?

[Forum Explorer]

well I don't know anything about Exalted but to talk about Space Marines


They are very emotional as evidenced by their fall to chaos and vary from individual to individual. The brainwashing and modifications turn them into killing machines as in that's all they are good at really. They do have souls as their souls can be stolen and fed upon as well as corrupted. They won't necessarily butcher a population of a planet if ordered to do so. Though most of them would.

[The Glyphstone]

That does depend on the Space Marine, though - they are allowed to have personalities, and various chapters have skills not related to murderizing - the Ultramarines are brilliant commanders and even diplomats, if there's someone they want to diplomize instead of murderize, for instance.

[Tengu_temp]

The Unconquered Sun and the Solar Exalted are entirely different kettles of fish. Solars are power-mad self-righteous jerks - they would fit in with the Imperium perfectly. And I don't necessarily mean that to rag on the Imperium (they're still a faction in W40k, afterall). As big golden war-gods with a generally callous disregard for mortal life that only grows stronger with age, I think they would get along.

Correction: some Solars are power-mad self-righteous jerks. The Great Curse means that they become a ridiculous exaggeration of their normal personality from time to time, but doesn't specify just what exactly that personality is. They have the potential to be all kinds of heroes and leaders, the good ones and the bad ones.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Correction: some Solars are power-mad self-righteous jerks. The Great Curse means that they become a ridiculous exaggeration of their normal personality from time to time, but doesn't specify just what exactly that personality is. They have the potential to be all kinds of heroes and leaders, the good ones and the bad ones.

Yeah. Some solars can look at a primordial and spit on its shoe. And that's when they're at their worst because of the Great Curse. Normally, they're much more sensible.

I can't wait for my solar to enter Limit Break.

And for all you FF fans who haven't read the Exalted core rulebook:
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/144/4/e/Limit_Break_by_golentan.jpg

[Douglas]

And for all you FF fans who haven't read the Exalted core rulebook:
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/144/4/e/Limit_Break_by_golentan.jpg
:smallamused:

From the little I know of Final Fantasy, "Limit Break" is a supremely good thing to get there. In Exalted, it's... not.

[Hiro Protagonest]

:smallamused:

From the little I know of Final Fantasy, "Limit Break" is a supremely good thing to get there. In Exalted, it's... not.

Yeah. Some are better in Exalted than others though. Red Rage of Compassion with Partial Control isn't significantly worse than normal, and Foolhardy Contempt with Partial Control is basically how PCs (and even celestial exalts in general) already act. The one in the picture is called Heart of Tears, a Compassion flaw that means you can't do anything but weep, and Partial Control only lets you defend yourself at a penalty, it's one of the worst along with Casual Cruelty, which means you have zero conscience, Contempt of the Virtuous, which means you have to lecture EVERYONE on their sins (with Partial Control you still have to lecture your friends), and Berserk Anger, which means you kill anything that moves (Partial Control means you still kill every single bystander in the area).

I'm not sure what Lunars have, they have different virtue flaws from the Curse, but Abyssals have Resonance, which means they either have to kill people or bad things happen to their friends (a way to take advantage of it is to have positive intimacies for bad guys :smalltongue:), and Infernals get Urges, which means they must further the Yozis' goals (although Infernals can get out of it, according to the TVTropes page).

[Fan]

The Unconquered Sun and the Solar Exalted are entirely different kettles of fish. Solars are power-mad self-righteous jerks - they would fit in with the Imperium perfectly. And I don't necessarily mean that to rag on the Imperium (they're still a faction in W40k, afterall). As big golden war-gods with a generally callous disregard for mortal life that only grows stronger with age, I think they would get along.

The Unconquered Sun, on the other hand, would be attempting to reform the Imperium into something less dark on the 40k greyscale. If he couldn't do this for some reason, he would actively oppose them. I'm not sure how adversarial the Imperium would be against the reforms of someone who basically looks like a four-armed God Emperor who is also a sun, though. In particular, I kinda wonder if the Adepta Sororitas would see him as some kind of false idol, or if they'd just be all hot and bothered :smalltongue:.

I'm not sure why they'd have a problem with Terrestrials?

Well the funny thing is, the Imperium was A LOT less dark under the rule of the God Emperor of Mankind.

It was the corrupt influence of far lesser men who can never aspire to his glory, the corruption of chaos, and a billion wars on a billion fronts that has lead the Imperium Man to become the decrepit shadow of it's former glory.

My understanding is that the Cult of the Emperor never even reached fruition until centuries after his interment upon the Golden Throne, and thus with the God Emperor at the Helm a mostly human society with some small variations of mutants (Lunars) who are friendly for the most part.. I'd see the Lunars getting treated like most feral worlders, or potentially more intelligent Ogryns, Solar's like a different method of Space Marine.. and etc.

The Imperium of Man however has the advantage of the Orbital Bombardment if it does turn to conflict, and as far as I'm aware you have to aware of an attack in order for you to use a charm in reaction to it. Though even then I'm sure there's an exception to that rule with some of the perfect dodge's.

Though I would be interested in seeing how Solar's would respond to the threat of Exterminatus. A two stage melta / cyclonic torpedo fired at a fraction of the speed of light into the core where it then proceeds to crack the planet in half is well..

Space is all of the one of a Solar exalteds weaknesses because they still need to breath if I remember correctly, though exceptions exist with Abyssal Exalted.

[Xefas]

Correction: some Solars are power-mad self-righteous jerks. The Great Curse means that they become a ridiculous exaggeration of their normal personality from time to time, but doesn't specify just what exactly that personality is. They have the potential to be all kinds of heroes and leaders, the good ones and the bad ones.

They're humans with power and no checks or balances, plus a mandate from god and the ability to make everyone swoon over their every action. The propensity to be a jerk in this situation has absolutely nothing to do with them being Solars, having the Great Curse, or anything about the Exalted setting.



The Imperium of Man however has the advantage of the Orbital Bombardment if it does turn to conflict, and as far as I'm aware you have to aware of an attack in order for you to use a charm in reaction to it. Though even then I'm sure there's an exception to that rule with some of the perfect dodge's.

Though I would be interested in seeing how Solar's would respond to the threat of Exterminatus. A two stage melta / cyclonic torpedo fired at a fraction of the speed of light into the core where it then proceeds to crack the planet in half is well..

Space is all of the one of a Solar exalteds weaknesses because they still need to breath if I remember correctly, though exceptions exist with Abyssal Exalted.

Once again, this depends on their age, Essence, and their charm loadout. Learning a charm that gives you Spidey Sense vs every surprise attack isn't difficult. Although, the ability to stop multiple planetcrackers across a planetary distance? That's more difficult. Most Essence 2-5 Solars are just going to die (same goes for pretty much all Exalted of that Essence level). A few might be lucky enough to have some means of dematerializing or hopping into another plane, but those aren't natural things for a Solar to do, and are going to be uncommon.

In the current Second Age setting, I don't think anyone but the Sun could stop you Exterminatus'ing Creation, and killing most of the Exalted (and I'd prefer to ignore the Sun for most versus threads, in the same way that I wish we could ignore Silver Age Superman in most versus threads). It's just not something anyone is equipped to handle.

In contrast, if the Imperial Navy attacked during the First Age, when Solars were stockpiled planetcracking doomsday weapons just because they had nothing better to do (they were using them to war with one another, but they accidentally broke reality itself and had to lay off for a while), and your average Solar could probably just jump from the surface of the planet onto one of the ships and mindrape everyone on board (plus anyone on any ships for a few hundred miles around) into their willing servitors without breaking a sweat, then it would be another situation altogether.

The First Age is one of those settings where you'd need a "The Entire Extended Justice League vs The First Age Exalted" or a "The Entire Cast of Dragonball Z vs The First Age Exalted" or a "All the Warhammer 40k Factions In a Huge Hippie Love Circle Of Friendship vs The First Age Exalted" tier versus thread.

[Terraoblivion]

In the current Second Age setting, I don't think anyone but the Sun could stop you Exterminatus'ing Creation, and killing most of the Exalted (and I'd prefer to ignore the Sun for most versus threads, in the same way that I wish we could ignore Silver Age Superman in most versus threads). It's just not something anyone is equipped to handle.

You mean apart from the fact that there would be no place for the Imperial Fleet to go? The sky over Creation isn't infinitely high and the ships of the fleet isn't designed to operate in an atmosphere.

[Bitter]

They're humans with power and no checks or balances, plus a mandate from god and the ability to make everyone swoon over their every action. The propensity to be a jerk in this situation has absolutely nothing to do with them being Solars, having the Great Curse, or anything about the Exalted setting.

Those things will all have an effect, but to say the Great Curse won't do anything to make the Solars jerks is completely silly. It's outright stated in the books.


The First Age is one of those settings where you'd need a "The Entire Extended Justice League vs The First Age Exalted".

Superman beats everyone.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Superman beats everyone.

Ah, no. Superman is only invulnerable to mundane attacks. To put it in D&D terms, he has DR/Magic in a setting where it's actually useful. If the fists of the exalts don't count as magic, their artifact weapons will.

[Bitter]

Ah, no. Superman is only invulnerable to mundane attacks. To put it in D&D terms, he has DR/Magic in a setting where it's actually useful. If the fists of the exalts don't count as magic, their artifact weapons will.

Superman is weaker to magic, not helpless. Dr mechanic doesn't work.

Also the reason that the Solars would get their asses handed to them is that Superman is the ultimate narrative of good triumphing. In the self-assembling hyperstory of Creation he would make Laashe and the other Ishvara cry about how weak their own stories are in comparison.

[TheCountAlucard]

The Imperium of Man however has the advantage of the Orbital Bombardment if it does turn to conflict, and as far as I'm aware you have to aware of an attack in order for you to use a charm in reaction to it. Though even then I'm sure there's an exception to that rule with some of the perfect dodge's.Actually, there's a number of ways to become aware of unexpected attacks in order to react to them with Charms.


Though I would be interested in seeing how Solar's would respond to the threat of Exterminatus. A two stage melta / cyclonic torpedo fired at a fraction of the speed of light into the core where it then proceeds to crack the planet in half is well...Depends on whether it's the First or Second Age. A First Age Solar could parry it so hard that nobody is affected by it, and then counterattack with a melee attack that crosses dimensional barriers and destroys the enemy ship in one hit.

Then again, he could do the same against the Imperium dropping propaganda posters.


Space is all of the one of a Solar exalteds weaknesses because they still need to breath if I remember correctly, though exceptions exist with Abyssal Exalted.There is no "outer space" in Creation, though, and even if there was (or if the Exalted went into the WH40K universe), Survival Charms would be all that's necessary.


Superman beats everyone.Depends on who's writing him.


Ah, no. Superman is only invulnerable to mundane attacks.Depends on who's writing him.


Superman is weaker to magic, not helpless.Depends on who's writing him.


Superman is the ultimate narrative of good triumphing.Depends on who's writing him.

[Tengu_temp]

They're humans with power and no checks or balances, plus a mandate from god and the ability to make everyone swoon over their every action. The propensity to be a jerk in this situation has absolutely nothing to do with them being Solars, having the Great Curse, or anything about the Exalted setting.

Like most high-powered heroes in any setting, you mean? Saying that everyone in such a situation would become a jerk requires both an extremely cynical view on humanity in general, and ignoring the presence of canon non-jerk Solar Exalted characters.

[TheCountAlucard]

Like most high-powered heroes in any setting, you mean? Saying that everyone in such a situation would become a jerk requires both an extremely cynical view on humanity in general, and ignoring the presence of canon non-jerk Solar Exalted characters.Xefas has expressed his viewpoints before on the General Exalted Discussion thread; I'd rather we not dredge up this discussion again. Let's just agree to disagree, all right?

[Xefas]

Saying that everyone in such a situation would become a jerk requires both an extremely cynical view on humanity in general, and ignoring the presence of canon non-jerk Solar Exalted characters.

I have these things.

(edit: To clarify, I think you can totally be a Solar and not be a jerk. I think the odds get slimmer the more centuries go by.)


Xefas has expressed his viewpoints before on the General Exalted Discussion thread; I'd rather we not dredge up this discussion again. Let's just agree to disagree, all right?

I'm fine with this.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Superman is weaker to magic, not helpless. Dr mechanic doesn't work.

Also the reason that the Solars would get their asses handed to them is that Superman is the ultimate narrative of good triumphing. In the self-assembling hyperstory of Creation he would make Laashe and the other Ishvara cry about how weak their own stories are in comparison.

Plot armor doesn't work in hypothetical fights. This is about Superman's in-universe abilities, which are super strength, flight, x-ray vision, and shooting laser beams. Unless the DC universe has a lot of meta. In the First Age, solars have technology for practically anything you can imagine, except raising the dead, time traveling, or giving/switching/making exaltations. Seriously, a solar rewrote the laws of the universe so that there can be mortal thaumaturges and enlightened mortals. Therefore, at the very least, there a few Dawns and Full Moons atop an airship chasing Superman, and probably a couple other exalts in small first age flying vehicles (basically magic fighter planes) trying to gun him down.

As for the weaker, not weak, thing, I'm pretty sure super strength (which pretty much all combat-focused exalted have) cancels it out, making it so that it's effectively a few wuxia movie level martial artists vs a wuxia movie level martial artist that can shoot laser beams.

[Bitter]

No, seriously, in Superman Beyond he travelled in the Bleed (The Multiverse's ultramenstruum, basically liquid story) and entered fourth dimensional space where it was revealed that he was the ultimate unstoppable narrative of goodness and redemption.

If this doesn't make sense to you, it's because you haven't been kidnapped by as many aliens as Grant Morrison.

Count Alucard, it doesn't matter who's writing him. Superman is a modern day god that is greater than his writers. It's all part of the same mythology.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Count Alucard, it doesn't matter who's writing him. Superman is a modern day god that is greater than his writers. It's all part of the same mythology.

And if you were writing him, that's what he would be.

And it doesn't matter whether or not he's a god. The Solars led their armies to kill the primordials, massive entities beyond mortal comprehension.

[Bitter]

I don't refer to him as a god in terms of power (Which he is), when I refer to him as a god I mean in terms of (sometimes conflicting or contradictory) mythology, stories and narrative he is a modern god.

edit: Also defeating primordial beings is called Tuesday for Superman.

[TheCountAlucard]

I don't refer to him as a god in terms of power (Which he is), when I refer to him as a god I mean in terms of (sometimes conflicting or contradictory) mythology, stories and narrative he is a modern god....good for you...? :smallconfused:

Superman is not YHWH; the Exalted can stand against him.


Also defeating primordial beings is called Tuesday for Superman.You just said it yourself. "Defeating." Not killing. Superman doesn't kill.* The Exalted can, did, and will again.** Even assuming that Superman is currently more powerful than the entirety of the Exalted Host,*** they will eventually surpass him, and when they kill him, he's going to stay dead.****


*Depending on who writes for him.
**This, on the other hand, is pretty much a constant.
***Which will, again, dpeend on who's writing for him.
****Which is, again, pretty much a constant.

[Gensh]

No, seriously, in Superman Beyond he travelled in the Bleed (The Multiverse's ultramenstruum, basically liquid story) and entered fourth dimensional space where it was revealed that he was the ultimate unstoppable narrative of goodness and redemption.

Actually, that is exactly the sort of thing the Exalted were designed to kill. Except instead of being one guy, each Primordial is an entire, populated, world. Mostly. I expect the inside of the Ebon Dragon is larger than the outside. The Primordials defined reality, and with each death, the world grew a little lesser - it's even thrown out there that entire types of Exalted might have vanished as a result. Even without First Age weaponry and training, it's still possible for any Exalt with the will to do so to build up enough power to at least give a titan a good fight - several Exalts together might win. And of course, as Xefas mentioned, Supes and Sol are in essence the same guy. And it's definitely possible for a prepared team of Exalts to kill Sol.

[Madwand]

Superman is weaker to magic, not helpless. Dr mechanic doesn't work.

It is good thing that Solars has a magic artifacts that do INFINITE damage and charm, which never miss with said artifact. :smallwink:
Also, social-fu. Never, ever underestimate social-fu. Especially if you don't have perfect defense against it.

Plus - cheap version of Solar vs Supes - wyld-shape/alchemical/gossamer kryptonite. Poor, poor helpless mortal.



The Primordials defined reality, and with each death, the world grew a little lesser - it's even thrown out there that entire types of Exalted might have vanished as a result

Wrong. He who hold in thrall is dead, but slavery still exist. You are mixing primodals and shimina.In other words: killing Ebon Dragon is not enough to destroy concept of dickery:smalltongue:

[WitchSlayer]

Uh, Superman can be hurt by enough force.

Just thought I should point that out.

Also if Superman had his awesome mecha-super-universe-robo then he'd totally win.

Totally.

[Bitter]

Superman is not YHWH; the Exalted can stand against him.

Actually, the whole point is structurally if not implementally that he is an equivalent.


You just said it yourself. "Defeating." Not killing. Superman doesn't kill.* The Exalted can, did, and will again.** Even assuming that Superman is currently more powerful than the entirety of the Exalted Host,*** they will eventually surpass him, and when they kill him, he's going to stay dead.****


*Depending on who writes for him.
**This, on the other hand, is pretty much a constant.
***Which will, again, dpeend on who's writing for him.
****Which is, again, pretty much a constant.

Yes, Supes doesn't kill. He is really really unlikely to kill them, but would easily defeat them. More likely though is that he would redeem them because that's who he is and that's what he does.

Also you seem to be missing the point of his narrative capability. Different writers will write him differently and his powers might fluctuate, but his powers don't matter. The core themes and narrative structure are eternal and unopposable and his powers will fluctuate in line with that.


It is good thing that Solars has a magic artifacts that do INFINITE damage and charm, which never miss with said artifact.

In mechanic terms, Superman's abilities would qualify as applicability trumping perfect-defenses.


Actually, that is exactly the sort of thing the Exalted were designed to kill. Except instead of being one guy, each Primordial is an entire, populated, world. Mostly. I expect the inside of the Ebon Dragon is larger than the outside. The Primordials defined reality, and with each death, the world grew a little lesser - it's even thrown out there that entire types of Exalted might have vanished as a result. Even without First Age weaponry and training, it's still possible for any Exalt with the will to do so to build up enough power to at least give a titan a good fight - several Exalts together might win. And of course, as Xefas mentioned, Supes and Sol are in essence the same guy. And it's definitely possible for a prepared team of Exalts to kill Sol.

Superman's narrative force is more akin to Samsara than anything you're suggesting.


Uh, Superman can be hurt by enough force.

Yup

[The Glyphstone]

Even whether Superman can stay dead or not depends on who's writing him.



But wait a second, Superman is not a Primarch. What the heck is he even doing in this discussion?

[Sanguine]

In mechanic terms, Superman's abilities would qualify as applicability trumping perfect-defenses.

Actually, from what I know of Superman, and what has been said in this thread, a better fit mechanically would be a ridiculously high Hardness and Soak. The Hardness makes it so all but the most obscenely powerful blows just bounce off, where as the Soak lets him take those ridiculously powerful attacks that do hurt him without becoming a stain of red on Darkseid's fist. Magic would bypass his Hardness but his high Soak would still usually reduce it to minimum damage.

He would also have 10+ Strength, and Strength-Increasing Exercise, Eagle-Wing Style(which is a Charm not a Martial Art), and a refluffed version of that Charm that let's you throw knives from your eyes; Knife-Eye Attack I think.

But this is a serious digression from the threads topic so I will shut up now.

[Xefas]

But this is a serious digression from the threads topic so I will shut up now.

Clearly, someone needs to make an "X vs Exalted - Random Meandering Digression Edition" thread.

[deuterio12]

That does depend on the Space Marine, though - they are allowed to have personalities, and various chapters have skills not related to murderizing - the Ultramarines are brilliant commanders and even diplomats, if there's someone they want to diplomize instead of murderize, for instance.

That's a massive stretch of the truth. ultramarines are great diplomats-when dealing with other marines only. Considering that more often than not chapters will murderize each others, ultramarines being willing to talk to their equals is indeed something exceptional among SM (badab war for example has over two dozen of them killing each other just because of some minor economic dispute).

As for brilliant commanders, they indeed have a brilliant streak of being as far away from the big battles as possible. They somehow ended on the other side of the galaxy during the horus heresy, and that was just the first of many such situations.

[Gensh]

Wrong. He who hold in thrall is dead, but slavery still exist. You are mixing primodals and shimina.In other words: killing Ebon Dragon is not enough to destroy concept of dickery:smalltongue:

Well, Primordials are sub-shinmaic emanations. They grew further from their initial purview as time went on, both in-universe and out. The way I understand it is that there's a sort of safety net in the way that a dead Primordial can be restored by an akuma (or GSP) taking (Primordial) Cosmic Principle. Those concepts close to humanity's heart would remain intact, even as stranger things vanished: mankind had just been liberated from Dragon King slavery, so slavery wouldn't just go away.


Clearly, someone needs to make an "X vs Exalted - Random Meandering Digression Edition" thread.

That, and X vs TTGL. And then X vs Exalted TTGL because if the two collided, all the characters would just immediately Exalt, so TTGL vs Exalted is impossible.

[TheCountAlucard]

Actually, the whole point is structurally if not implementally that he is an equivalent.Then the whole point is wrong.


More likely though is that he would redeem them because that's who he is and that's what he does.Oh, yeah, that's why Supes doesn't have any nemeses or anything... oh, wait.


Also you seem to be missing the point of his narrative capability.I don't care about his narrative capability. The Fair Folk are all about narrative capability, and every kind of Exalt can walk all over them.


Different writers will write him differently and his powers might fluctuate, but his powers don't matter.They do when you're discussing who would win in a fight.



It is good thing that Solars has a magic artifacts that do INFINITE damage and charm, which never miss with said artifact.In mechanic terms, Superman's abilities would qualify as applicability trumping perfect-defenses.:furious:

Don't you dare put those words in my mouth; I never said that.


Superman's narrative force is more akin to Samsara than anything you're suggesting.Except that I didn't suggest that. And also, that argument about Supes' "narrative force?" It's objectively wrong. Supes doesn't carry his story around with him. When he wanders into a Justice League comic, it doesn't become a Superman comic; it stays a Justice League comic.

[Bitter]

Then the whole point is wrong.

Except it's actually stated in the comics that's the case (Superman Beyond issue 2, maybe issue 1). Read Supergods by Grant Morrison for further analysis.


Oh, yeah, that's why Supes doesn't have any nemeses or anything... oh, wait.

It all depends on how the narrative flows. Some people Superman punches. Other's he redeems. It's just my personal judgement that Exalts would be more worthy of redemption rather than Superman punching them all in the face and reconstructing the Jade Prison to throw them back into, but I think it's a correct one.


I don't care about his narrative capability. The Fair Folk are all about narrative capability, and every kind of Exalt can walk all over them.

An false equivalence. Fair Folk are random mutating patterns of Chaos, flitting and changing constantly. Only the Ishvara would be comparable and even then the comparison between Superman and an Ishvara like Laathe is like comparing the sun and a campfire.


They do when you're discussing who would win in a fight.

They do when you look at why his powers change between writers and stories, which is to fit his role in the current story. In a fight between Superman and Exalts, his narrative supremacy means that his role will be either victor, redeemer or something along those lines.

He wouldn't be in the role of "Guy who gets stabbed to death",What level would his powers be in a fight with Exalted? By definition, they would be at whatever level they needed to be.


Except that I didn't suggest that. And also, that argument about Supes' "narrative force?" It's objectively wrong. Supes doesn't carry his story around with him. When he wanders into a Justice League comic, it doesn't become a Superman comic; it stays a Justice League comic.

Well, yes, he does.

The nature of how it is applied changes, but the construct is still there.

For instance, just because he's in a Justice League comic does that mean that Superman will suddenly and permanently be stabbed to death by an enemy and never published again by DC outside of the occasional Elseworlds comic? No, it just means that he might for instance be temporarily beaten and captured, then Batman saves him and together with his allies Superman is then triumphant.

[Maquise]

Please no more Superman discussion.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Clearly, someone needs to make an "X vs Exalted - Random Meandering Digression Edition" thread.

Iroh vs Kejak.

Sokka vs a mortal winglord.

Piandao vs an entire wing, with dragon-blooded commanders.

Heracles vs Leviathan.

Asura vs The First and Forsaken Lion.

Yasha vs The First and Forsaken Lion.

[The Glyphstone]

That Guy With A Halberd vs Chejop Kejak?

[TheCountAlucard]

That Guy With A Halberd vs Chejop Kejak?I hate to be the one making jokes about the fanon, but...

Depends on how many Sidereals were with him when Kejack decided to take him on. :smalltongue:

[Misery Esquire]

"All the Warhammer 40k Factions In a Huge Hippie Love Circle Of Friendship vs The First Age Exalted"

Honestly, if you set "just" the entire Imperium of Man versus FAE (Huh. Wacky acronym.) it could win. Either through the fact that they have 12,000+ ships, and can crack a planet with the number of lances being fired, let alone the thousands of planet-destroying Exterminautis missles and/or the Life Eater Virus ones that have managed to consume any organic material around a planet in hours and then becomes ridiculously flammable. Say that somehow the Exalted manage to defend against all of that, the Imperium still has enough sheer mass in ships to ram a small-to-medium planet apart. -- Not to mention the number of Imperial Guardsmen they have would let them cover the surface of the planet, even if they stood on each other's shoulders two, maybe three, deep.

Or give the Imperium Dark Age technology for nanobots, planet destroying lasercannons, AI, extrasolar cruise-missle Exterminautis, and improved plasma weaponry, among other things. Bringing the Emperor of Mankind back to life would also be a massive boon.

Abaddon's (now destroyed) Planet Killer could probably do it as well, if purely because of the hundred thousand plus kilometer range on it's deathlaser.

Pre-Fall Eldar could manage it, if you handed them the Blackstone Fortresses ; Your standard combine-for-greater-effect space lasers, one devestates a continent, two destroys planets, three supernova's stars, and four or more is purely theoretical in use, though some fanon is that it can/did create lightyears wide warp storm/nebulas like the Maelstrom. There were originally 6 Blackstone Fortresses. (1 left in the current era, I believe.)

Chaos Gods, if they somehow got the Exalted world inside the Warp could do it, due to thier near-omnipotence within the Warp, and unkillable nature.

C'tan/Necrons... ...it's a 404 Error on exactly how strong they are, though I'm not up to date on thier fluff.

And Orkz "Jus' wan' ter hav' a lil' fun wid dose shineh humies." Orkz automatically "win" on account of being Orkz and having a fight is a victory in and of itself to them.

[Eldan]

Problem is, Exalted is not set on a planet, and it has no outer space. It's an infinite flat plane. Well, kinda infinite, it dissolves at the edges.

As for Chaos gods: they are exactly what Exalted were invented to fight. They won.

[Misery Esquire]

As for Chaos gods: they are exactly what Exalted were invented to fight. They won.

I guess I need to investigate Exalted a bit more, but aren't the Chaos gods... Well. Unkillable, unless you elimate all life in the galaxy.

Also, wouldn't the lack of outer space make a crossover completely impossible, anyway? :smallconfused:
-- And also, why would it be the Exalted universe automatically?

[Gensh]

I guess I need to investigate Exalted a bit more, but aren't the Chaos gods... Well. Unkillable, unless you elimate all life in the galaxy.

That's actually specifically why the Exalted were created. Before their existence, Primordials could not be permanently killed, just inflicted with fetich death, after which they immediately respawn. Ghost-Eating Technique: if you kill it, it stays dead. Though then there's the issue with the Neverborn...


Also, wouldn't the lack of outer space make a crossover completely impossible, anyway? :smallconfused:

Well technically space exists - it's just inside of a dragon knotted up around himself and imprisoned in hell. The ships would instead have to maneuver in the Wyld, raw chaos. Any without suitable defenses against the Warp would suffer from its inherent effects at least, not to mention the whims of any nearby raksha.

[Misery Esquire]

That's actually specifically why the Exalted were created. Before their existence, Primordials could not be permanently killed, just inflicted with fetich death, after which they immediately respawn. Ghost-Eating Technique: if you kill it, it stays dead. Though then there's the issue with the Neverborn...

That implies that it's possible to kill them (The Primordials), even temporarily, though. CGs have never been shown to die at all, or be harmed even, not just respawning.

...Actually, we've never seen them fight with anything, because they seem to fufill the more traditional God role of not directly interfering. But, for example, Tzeentch is alive as long as someone is thinking, as long as there's anything written, because he's not just a daemon, he's information. Heck, within his fortress niether Time or Space apply at all, and within the Warp thier already "guidelines" rather than rules. Even worse, inside the Fortress is the Hidden Library, in which every thought, from every thing, from all of time is written. And that's just the God of Hope.

So... If Exalted can kill that, I guess they can just do anything, and there's no purpose in putting them against anything. :smallconfused:

And no, I'm not being sarcastic, sardonic, or anything else, I'm quite serious. If they can kill an idea, within an area that follows none of the laws of physics at all, then there's pretty much nothing that can stand up to that.



Well technically space exists - it's just inside of a dragon knotted up around himself and imprisoned in hell. The ships would instead have to maneuver in the Wyld, raw chaos. Any without suitable defenses against the Warp would suffer from its inherent effects at least, not to mention the whims of any nearby raksha.

So... Geller Fields, enforced normality, set to On and it's 'kay? (Assuming transparency) >_>

Also, Raksha seem sort of... powerless against 5 kilometer long ships armed to the teeth with macrocannons (firing projectiles the size of a small house), energy & void shields, meters of warded adamatium armour, lance batteries, and the tens of thousands of crew.

I mean, even if they are more threatening than 40k's warp Daemons, the Geller Field manages to part the oceans of daemons, and unless they go through paticularly rough areas, it does so without any trouble.

Meh. If they're the godslayers of ultimate destiny, I guess there's no real point in trying to support this side of the arguement.

[Bitter]

Any without suitable defenses against the Warp.

Faith in the God-Emperor is defense enough, you dirty heretic!

Also yeah, the Chaos gods are created by the minds of sentient warp-touching races. If an Exalted managed to stab Khorne in the face while using Ghost Eating Technique, he'd be recreated a millisecond later because all the grimdark violence and murder in the universe that was responsible for his existence before he got destroyed still exists. If it exists then Khorne exists. Or maybe a nigh-identical Chaos God. Who knows?

Defeating the Chaos Gods would be an epic PC campaign involving either bringing peace to the universe or some kind of plot macguffin, not something an average Exalt could accomplish and not something you do in a standard fight.

[TheCountAlucard]

I guess I need to investigate Exalted a bit more, but aren't the Chaos gods... Well. Unkillable, unless you elimate all life in the galaxy.The Primordials were likewise unkillable; guess how well that turned out for them. Also, there are more Primordials than there are Chaos Gods.


Also, wouldn't the lack of outer space make a crossover completely impossible, anyway?It's something that continually confounds me when people bring up these discussions. I wouldn't call it completely impossible, though; the Wyld pulls off some crazy stuff...


...And also, why would it be the Exalted universe automatically?Because, as far as I can tell, it's the more plausible of the two settings to have them meet each other. As has been pointed out, the Exalted don't have spaceships per se, and they've never really had the need to load up their closest approximations and abandon Creation with 'em. The WH40K factions all seem to be fine with wandering around, finding an alien locale, and trying to conquer the hell out of it.


That implies that it's possible to kill them (The Primordials), even temporarily, though.Actually, fetich death isn't a "I die, I respawn" thing; it's more along the line of, "My nature changes on such a fundamental level that I'm no longer the same being." And the fetiches themselves had a nigh-Primordial level of immortality themselves at that point.


CGs have never been shown to die at all, or be harmed even, not just respawning.The Exalted never fought the Chaos Gods. It really is kinda new territory to be considering.


Heck, within his fortress niether Time or Space apply at all, and within the Warp thier already "guidelines" rather than rules. Even worse, inside the Fortress is the Hidden Library, in which every thought, from every thing, from all of time is written. And that's just the God of Hope.The fact that he even has a physical existence within the Warp seems indicative that were the Exalted to meet him on such a field, they could permanently kill him.


And no, I'm not being sarcastic, sardonic, or anything else, I'm quite serious. If they can kill an idea, within an area that follows none of the laws of physics at all, then there's pretty much nothing that can stand up to that.Sorry to inform you that there is in fact a precedent.


Also, Raksha seem sort of... powerless against 5 kilometer long ships armed to the teeth with macrocannons (firing projectiles the size of a small house), energy & void shields, meters of warded adamatium armour, lance batteries, and the tens of thousands of crew.Technically, a raksha in the Wyld can just shape up something bigger and meaner by just wanting to. The Wyld kinda sucks like that.

[Bitter]

...Actually, we've never seen them fight with anything, because they seem to fufill the more traditional God role of not directly interfering.

My own minor nitpick is that we do know that Slaanesh fought Khaine, the Eldar god of war; possibly apocryphal minor aside that it is.

[Bitter]

The Primordials were likewise unkillable; guess how well that turned out for them. Also, there are more Primordials than there are Chaos Gods.

They're unkillable in much different ways and the Chaos Gods don't really fit the Exalted framework of how Primordials work. It's also worth noting that the Exalted didn't manage to fully kill the Primordials as not even Ghost Eating Technique could force the massive souls of Primordials through Lethe and they remain Neverborn even to the present day.

If I were to try to force them into it, rather than being Primordials the Chaos Gods would be fetitch souls (Not in terms of power, in terms of their place in the structure).

Nurgle would be analogous to a fetitch souls like Ligier. He's just a prism of a greater force. You kill him and he's regenerated (perhaps a bit different perhaps the same, but one's never been killed so we don't know).

So who represents the Primordial? The collective fear of death and disease of all warp-sensitive beings throughout the galaxy, as well their it's antithesis of life and hope. It's not a solid being that can be stabbed, it's a powerful emotion state felt by untold gazillions of beings across the universe.

That's why they're not really comparable, because Nurgle and the other Chaos Gods aren't their own self-defined beings in the way the Primordials are, they're embodiments and aspects of powerful emotions throughout the universe. As long as the emotions are there, the Chaos Gods exist.

[TheCountAlucard]

Also yeah, the Chaos gods are created by the minds of sentient warp-touching races. If an Exalted managed to stab Khorne in the face while using Ghost Eating Technique, he'd be recreated a millisecond later because all the grimdark violence and murder in the universe that was responsible for his existence before he got destroyed still exists. If it exists then Khorne exists. Or maybe a nigh-identical Chaos God. Who knows?Or maybe it would permanently destroy Khorne; like I said, there's really no precedent here. Besides, I think a Neverborn Khorne would be pretty badass. :smallamused:


Defeating the Chaos Gods would be an epic PC campaign involving either bringing peace to the universe or some kind of plot macguffin, not something an average Exalt could accomplish and not something you do in a standard fight.I actually agree with this sentiment, but note that the Primordial War took hundreds of years and the deaths of countless Exalts to finish.

EDIT: In regard to your "fetich" argument, Bitter, I'd actually peg them as closer to the Incarnae than a fetich.

[Bitter]

Or maybe it would permanently destroy Khorne; like I said, there's really no precedent here. Besides, I think a Neverborn Khorne would be pretty badass. :smallamused:

Yes, that could happen, but I was classing that as "Or maybe a nigh-identical Chaos God".

Maybe it is possible to kill Khorne, but now we've just got Bhorne.

Hail Bhorne, Hearts for the Heart chair (it is comfier than a throne), Death for the Death God!

It's kind of like, if you kill Ligier and that transforms Malfeas into a new but thematically similar Primordial, does that count as beating him? That's the best an Exalt can hope for because the forces which cause the creation of Chaos Gods are still in effect if you stab a Chaos God in their head.

[Misery Esquire]

Sorry to inform you that there is in fact a precedent.

There's a precedent for murdering an idea? :smallconfused:

Welp, this is stupid, I'm out.

[TheCountAlucard]

There's a precedent for murdering an idea?Technically, it was carried out by one of the Primordials as an act of spite, but yes.


Welp, this is stupid, I'm out.Sorry to see you go.

[tyckspoon]

There's a precedent for murdering an idea? :smallconfused:

Welp, this is stupid, I'm out.

Welcome to Exalted, in which there are concepts that no longer exist (and nobody is quite sure what they were anymore) because the foundational beings that represented/embodied/sort of generated them were destroyed.

[Bitter]

There's a precedent for murdering an idea? :smallconfused:

Welp, this is stupid, I'm out.

Count Alucard was just a bit off on this.

The Primordials are more like the C'tan; really powerful cthonic beings with set themes.

[TheCountAlucard]

Count Alucard was just a bit off on this.No, I wasn't; as you'll see, I wasn't referring to the Primordials being ideas - I was referring to ideas being destroyed.

[Bitter]

Welcome to Exalted, in which there are concepts that no longer exist (and nobody is quite sure what they were anymore) because the foundational beings that represented/embodied/sort of generated them were destroyed.

This doesn't happen in Exalted.

The destruction of neither Primordials nor gods will destroy the features that they relate to. In the case of gods, the thing they were regulating and controlling can go wild and screwy (A river might start flooding or something) but that is it. If you kill the Celestial god of Rivers or the Yozi Adorjan, that doesn't wipe rivers from existence.

The nearest thing to this is the Three Sphere cataclysm, but that had anything to do with the destruction of forces that embody concepts.

[Bitter]

Welcome to Exalted, in which there are concepts that no longer exist (and nobody is quite sure what they were anymore) because the foundational beings that represented/embodied/sort of generated them were destroyed.

This doesn't happen in Exalted.

The destruction of neither Primordials nor gods will destroy the features that they relate to. In the case of gods, the thing they were regulating and controlling can go wild and screwy (A river might start flooding or something) but that is it. If you kill the Celestial god of Rivers or the Yozi Adorjan, that doesn't wipe rivers from existence.

The nearest thing to this is the Three Sphere cataclysm, but that had anything to do with the destruction of forces that embody concepts.

[Sanguine]

I don't know 40K well, but from what's been said in this thread, I agree walking up to a Chaos God and stabbing him in the face is a futile gesture. However the Exalted can kill them, they just have to be smart about who they stab in the face with a sword.

For Example:
Solar Bob gets pissed of at Khorne for cutting in line and decides to kill him. He kicks Khornes ass and finishes him off with Ghost-Eating Technique. Khorne is now dead. But where he stood there is now the near identical Bhorne.

This enrages Bob, and after several successive murders he finally suppresses his Valor and uses his vast knowledge of Metaphysics, courtesy of Twilight Rob, to find out how to kill this bastard for good. He finds that Bhorne is created by all of the violence and murder of the universe. So he creates a plan, one he doesn't like, but it will get the job done.

Traveling out into the Wyld Solar Bob occasionally has to beat up the local Unshaped for directions; but eventually he finds his destination. The Shinma Nishkriya who defines conflict. After enduring the untold hardships of passing through its emanations Solar Bob finds himself in a place of utter peace and tranquility. He then murders it. With the Shinma who defines it by being it's exact opposite no more the concept of conflict ceases to exist in the universe. Without conflict there is no more violence and murder and the Chaos God Bhorne withers away to nothing.


That is how you kill a Chaos God.

[Madwand]

That is how you kill a Chaos God.

Destroying all fun of war to kill such loser as CG is kind of waste. You just beat him into submission oaths and lock in Prison where he can't interfere with anything.

Problem solved.

[Eldan]

Yeah. In the weird buddhist-confucian-shinto-hinduist-celtic mythology and metaphysics of Exalted, it is not technically impossible to kill an idea. The murderer in question would probably forget that he had done it, since he can't remember a concept that doesn't exist, but it would be dead.

So yes. In Exalted, ideas aren't bulletproof.

[Sanguine]

Destroying all fun of war to kill such loser as CG is kind of waste. You just beat him into submission oaths and lock in Prison where he can't interfere with anything.

Problem solved.

Thus why Solar Bob didn't like the idea. But remember he didn't want to get rid of the Chaos God he wanted to kill him over a petty offense.

[golentan]

Yeah. In the weird buddhist-confucian-shinto-hinduist-celtic mythology and metaphysics of Exalted, it is not technically impossible to kill an idea. The murderer in question would probably forget that he had done it, since he can't remember a concept that doesn't exist, but it would be dead.

So yes. In Exalted, ideas aren't bulletproof.

Heck, even beings as small as Gods can affect/kill ideas in exalted. Spirits have the one charm that lets them take intangible items as solid materials...

[Fan]

I don't know 40K well, but from what's been said in this thread, I agree walking up to a Chaos God and stabbing him in the face is a futile gesture. However the Exalted can kill them, they just have to be smart about who they stab in the face with a sword.

For Example:
Solar Bob gets pissed of at Khorne for cutting in line and decides to kill him. He kicks Khornes ass and finishes him off with Ghost-Eating Technique. Khorne is now dead. But where he stood there is now the near identical Bhorne.

This enrages Bob, and after several successive murders he finally suppresses his Valor and uses his vast knowledge of Metaphysics, courtesy of Twilight Rob, to find out how to kill this bastard for good. He finds that Bhorne is created by all of the violence and murder of the universe. So he creates a plan, one he doesn't like, but it will get the job done.

Traveling out into the Wyld Solar Bob occasionally has to beat up the local Unshaped for directions; but eventually he finds his destination. The Shinma Nishkriya who defines conflict. After enduring the untold hardships of passing through its emanations Solar Bob finds himself in a place of utter peace and tranquility. He then murders it. With the Shinma who defines it by being it's exact opposite no more the concept of conflict ceases to exist in the universe. Without conflict there is no more violence and murder and the Chaos God Bhorne withers away to nothing.


That is how you kill a Chaos God.

He's also the concept of Honor, not just conflict. So in order to kill Khorne you also have to kill GOOD emotions.

Same with Nurgle, who embodies family, and Slannesh who embodies the purest forms of loves as well as all it's perversions. Tzeenetch who embodies progress, and innovation.

In order to a Chaos God you would have to completely remove the defining borders between good and evil, you would have to create a realm where there was no love, no valour, no honour, no progress or innovation.

As evil as the Chaos Gods are they are sustained by the one thing that is truly unconquerable, life.

And that is why only the Necrons, emotionless, lifeless, machines. Have a chance of truly defeating the Chaos Gods.

[Misery Esquire]

Yeah. In the weird buddhist-confucian-shinto-hinduist-celtic mythology and metaphysics of Exalted, it is not technically impossible to kill an idea. The murderer in question would probably forget that he had done it, since he can't remember a concept that doesn't exist, but it would be dead.

==> Return for one post

So, on the plus side, Exalted will successfully have destroyed the concepts of thinking, living, fighting, and senses/emotion. (Not to mention the gamut of minor things the CG pantheon covers.)

Heh.

[Tavar]

This has kinda been discussed before. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67751)

[Eldan]

==> Return for one post

So, on the plus side, Exalted will successfully have destroyed the concepts of thinking, living, fighting, and senses/emotion. (Not to mention the gamut of minor things the CG pantheon covers.)

Heh.


Hey, I didn't say it was a good idea :smalltongue:

[Fan]

Hey, I didn't say it was a good idea :smalltongue:

What we're saying is that it's actually impossible to WIN against the Chaos gods.

Even if you win. You lose.

[TheCountAlucard]

This has kinda been discussed before. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67751)I said that pages ago.

[Tavar]

What we're saying is that it's actually impossible to WIN against the Chaos gods.

Even if you win. You lose.

I'm not sure how truthful that is. Yes, they're powerful, and seem to have some sort of Resurrection system in place. This doesn't mean that the system is perfect.

In fact, there are hints that it isn't perfect: they fled when the Emperor unleashed his full might on Horus, fearful that they would be destroyed.

Really, I'd classify them as a bunch of Ishvara, being birthed from the wyld that make their narrative all-encompassing, giving them much greater power. But, you know what? There have been 3 known Ishvara so far in Exalted's history (with others implied, but not specified). And so far, each one's been defeated.

[Madwand]

He's also the concept of Honor, not just conflict. So in order to kill Khorne you also have to kill GOOD emotions.

Same with Nurgle, who embodies family, and Slannesh who embodies the purest forms of loves as well as all it's perversions. Tzeenetch who embodies progress, and innovation.

In order to a Chaos God you would have to completely remove the defining borders between good and evil, you would have to create a realm where there was no love, no valour, no honour, no progress or innovation.

As evil as the Chaos Gods are they are sustained by the one thing that is truly unconquerable, life*.

And that is why only the Necrons, emotionless, lifeless, machines. Have a chance of truly defeating the Chaos Gods.

As I said, they can be imprisoned and/or forged into artifacts (but not into keyblade:smallwink:!). Their power stolen; hec, there is single charm (high essence Ebon Dragon), which create copy under control of Exalt. And that copy is so perfect that it steal even worship directed to original. So we just copy choas god, kill oryginal and "our own man" take his place, psychic power that powered CG (so he can't back) and all his cool stuffs.

It is single charm. And every elder exalted has dozens of them.

Yes, Exalted above mid-level is unplayable.


Plus we have a perfect example in-universe of infinte ("countless millions") inviders vs Creation. Invaders has a weapon BIGGER than Creation. Like Exterminus made of pure concept of SHARP instead of missiles.

Balor Crusade still end up dead by hands of Exalts.


Also, if we get WH 40k in universe comparison - think of it like 300 Emperors of Mankind vs Imperium.

[Sanguine]

He's also the concept of Honor, not just conflict. So in order to kill Khorne you also have to kill GOOD emotions.

Same with Nurgle, who embodies family, and Slannesh who embodies the purest forms of loves as well as all it's perversions. Tzeenetch who embodies progress, and innovation.

In order to a Chaos God you would have to completely remove the defining borders between good and evil, you would have to create a realm where there was no love, no valour, no honour, no progress or innovation.

As evil as the Chaos Gods are they are sustained by the one thing that is truly unconquerable, life.

And that is why only the Necrons, emotionless, lifeless, machines. Have a chance of truly defeating the Chaos Gods.

Well in that case you could always kill the Shinma of Existence. It's a horrible idea but it would work. Of course it might be a little tricky to pull off since Shinma define a thing by being it's exact opposite.

[Madwand]

Well in that case you could always kill the Shinma of Existence. It's a horrible idea but it would work. Of course it might be a little tricky to pull off since Shinma define a thing by being it's exact opposite.


It is also wrong. Take Slaanesh.
Slaanesh doesn't represent those things in the sense of them not existing without him nor do those things make his existence a must.The warp got along without him for millions of years and yet everyone was able to experience all those funny emotions just fine.

Even the oldest of the Chaos gods isn't all that old, there have been indications that none of them is older than humankind itself. (Even Nurgle just being born out of the Black Death during our middle ages).

So, they are just really small gods of concepts taken up to eleven by sheer size of universe. Ther are parasites. Big cosmic scale insects. The warp will survive Slaanesh dieing. Lust, excess, pleasure and hedonism will as well.

Edit:
besides, if Slaanesh would just be reborn the Eldar's plan for killing him wouldn't make much sense. Sacrificing your whole race just to kill someone who will be reborn in five minutes anyway? I think the canon is quite clear about CG not being immortal or eternal.

[The Glyphstone]

The Eldar could just be wrong. It'd fit the grimdark if their grand race-sacrificing plan is actually futile and impossible, they just don't realize it and won't until it's too late.


Though if we're pitting the CG against the 1st Age Creation, that means the existence of the 1st Age Exalted, a civilization that's so hedonistic it makes the Pre-Fall Eldar look like ascetic monks. Slaanesh might be killable, but who's to say that wouldn't immediately open up the field for something far worse?

[Misery Esquire]

It is also wrong. Take Slaanesh.
Slaanesh doesn't represent those things in the sense of them not existing without him nor do those things make his existence a must.The warp got along without him for millions of years and yet everyone was able to experience all those funny emotions just fine.

Even the oldest of the Chaos gods isn't all that old, there have been indications that none of them is older than humankind itself. (Even Nurgle just being born out of the Black Death during our middle ages).

So, they are just really small gods of concepts taken up to eleven by sheer size of universe. Ther are parasites.The warp will survive Slaanesh dieing. Lust, excess, pleasure and hedonism will as well.

...Wait, what?

Sorry, but Slaanesh has always been in exsistance*, s/he only birthed fully as a Chaos God during the Fall of the Eldar, because of the sheer psychic hedonism going on. S/he still exsisted beforehand, just in a less godly state.

There's also no precedent for Nurgle being born from the Black Plague (I mean, seriously, small fish in the galatic sense.)

*- Technically, the Chaos Gods weren't always in thier current malevolent forms, (or any form at all, really) and were altered by the Old Ones use of the Warp for combat against the Necrons/C'tan some hundred thousand plus years ago. (Although, they did conviently wait for M2 to become sentient... Human-centric galaxy/fiction as usual. :smalltongue: )

@Edit ; The Chaos Gods have never been shown to be able to die at all. The "respawning" isn't part of 40k, and was brought up on the Exalted side of the discussion. The Eldar plan of killing Slaanesh might work out fine, as it's unknown if s/he would get another shot at life.

[Selrahc]

There's also no precedent for Nurgle being born from the Black Plague (I mean, seriously, small fish in the galatic sense.)

Oldfluff says Khorne was born during the Middle Ages. That's probably what is being referred to.

The Chaos gods are non-linear though. Wherever their chronological start is, that isn't necessarily where their influence begins.



The Chaos Gods have never been shown to be able to die at all.

Tzeentch was once the most powerful of the Gods, fully omniscient and almost omnipotent. The other three gods working together managed to beat him back, and threatened him with death if he didn't shatter his power.

[Forum Explorer]

Oldfluff says Khorne was born during the Middle Ages. That's probably what is being referred to.

The Chaos gods are non-linear though. Wherever their chronological start is, that isn't necessarily where their influence begins.



Tzeentch was once the most powerful of the Gods, fully omniscient and almost omnipotent. The other three gods working together managed to beat him back, and threatened him with death if he didn't shatter his power.

Yes but none of them have died is the point. We don't know what would happen in that case, just that it is theoretically possible for them to be killed.

Oh and for the Eldar sacrificing themselves isn't accurate. Its more of once the Eldar go extinct that god will form which will be able to destroy Slaanash. They aren't actively killing themselves to make it happen faster.

[hamishspence]

That's a massive stretch of the truth. ultramarines are great diplomats-when dealing with other marines only.

In the 5E Necron battle report in White Dwarf, the Ultramarines manage to co-operate with the Eldar vs the Necrons (until betrayed) and when their Necron opponent hands over the betrayer to them, after the battle, they manage not to shoot him out of hand, though eventually, after a short conversation, they do shoot at that Necron Lord (Trazyn the Infinite).

[deuterio12]

For the record, the 40k chaos gods aren't really the embodiment of the feelings they represent. They're manifestations. They don't create those forces, but feed on them.

That's why, tecnically speaking, chaos did won the Horus Heresy. The IoM became a massive center of corruption, scheming, decay and eternal conflict that kept the chaos gods fat and happy for 10 000 years, even if they aren't directly worshiped.



Tzeentch was once the most powerful of the Gods, fully omniscient and almost omnipotent. The other three gods working together managed to beat him back, and threatened him with death if he didn't shatter his power.

No, Tzeentch broke his own power out of his own will. The thing about chaos people seem to forget it's that it is CHAOS, not my-little-pony. Conflict, competition and strife empower them. Should one of the chaos gods fully eclipse the others, then that very same chaos gods would sign his own ruin. Even the chaos codex itself points out that Tezeentch's endless scheming has no ultimate purpose-endlessly scheming is its own purpose. If the Lord of Change's plan actually reached a final goal, he wouldn't have anything left to change, the worst possible outcome.

hamishspence:That's not ultramarines being diplomatic. That's eldars being super-manipulative. And to be honest, manipulating marines to murderize something isn't that hard, since it's what they want to do anyway.

[Bitter]

But on the other hand, Nuffle.

[Eldan]

hamishspence:That's not ultramarines being diplomatic. That's eldars being super-manipulative. And to be honest, manipulating marines to murderize something isn't that hard, since it's what they want to do anyway.

The hard part is manipulating them into killing the other guy first and you later.

[D_Lord]

If one wanted to kill an Chaos God one just needs to do a "Chain of Memories", yes I do mean the kingdom Hearts game, the point is changing or deleting memories of the being and everyone else, assorted with them. Do that, and the energy, the force the feelings that the Chaos God represents would still be their but you basically turned them into mindless forces again.

[deuterio12]

The hard part is manipulating them into killing the other guy first and you later.

And again, the Eldar are renowed for being manipulative bastards. In particular because sometimes they're actually trying to help so you're not sure if they're gonna backstab you at the first oportunity. Sometimes.

[Fearan]

I'm sorry, what whas the name of the thread again? "How many primarchs will Chejop Kejak kill before tea"?

[Delusion]

But if first age exalted wanted to kill chaos gods, wouldn't they most likely try to remove warp or something? Weren't the fair folk afraid that that was going to happen to wyld? Or do I remember wrong?


Besides, its possible for gods to die in wh40k (see the most of Eldar Pantheon), so why would Chaos gods be exemption.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm sorry, what whas the name of the thread again? "How many primarchs will Chejop Kejak kill before tea"?

No, it was "how many Primarchs will Kejak kill after having tea with them".

"Do you expect me to talk?"

"No, Mr. Horus. I expect you to dine. Tea?"

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, the worry should surely be that the Primarchs will explain the chaos gods to the sidereals.
"So, the only way to destroy the Chaos Gods is to kill everyone you say?"

[Misery Esquire]

Besides, its possible for gods to die in wh40k (see the most of Eldar Pantheon), so why would Chaos gods be exemption.

A.) It was the C'tan killing off the Eldar Gods, who were silly enough to enter the material realm.

B.) Or, the Eldar are simply forgetting thier history and misplacing Old Ones*, masters of biology/using the warp, as most of thier gods, leaving the few actual gods as the ones that survived. (Isha/bits of Khaine/Laughing God) Slaanesh is also associated with killing off a number of Eldar gods in his/her birth.

Whether or not the CG can be killed (without elimating all life) has yet to be seen. Even the C'tan, masters of manipulating the material universe, only have a plan to cut the connection between the two, with no indication this will do anything to the Warp other than no longer allow it to come across to this side. It may "starve" out the Warp, but as it hasn't happened there's no way to be sure.

*Who were also slaughtered by the C'tan, and the horrors that the warp unleashed because of thier continous use of it, and the psychic races they created. (Orkz, Eldar, some other aliens, and a minor hand in humans. The C'tan/Necrons may have also meddled with humans at some point, as evidenced by the Pariah gene.)

Ninjas!

[Forum Explorer]

A.) It was the C'tan killing off the Eldar Gods, who were silly enough to enter the material realm.

B.) Or, the Eldar are simply forgetting thier history and misplacing Old Ones*, masters of biology/using the warp, as most of thier gods, leaving the few actual gods as the ones that survived. (Isha/bits of Khaine/Laughing God) Slaanesh is also associated with killing off a number of Eldar gods in his/her birth.

Whether or not the CG can be killed (without elimating all life) has yet to be seen. Even the C'tan, masters of manipulating the material universe, only have a plan to cut the connection between the two, with no indication this will do anything to the Warp other than no longer allow it to come across to this side. It may "starve" out the Warp, but as it hasn't happened there's no way to be sure.

*Who were also slaughtered by the C'tan, and the horrors that the warp unleashed because of thier continous use of it, and the psychic races they created. (Orkz, Eldar, some other aliens, and a minor hand in humans. The C'tan/Necrons may have also meddled with humans at some point, as evidenced by the Pariah gene.)

Ninjas!

The C'tan never killed any of the Eldar gods. They were consumed by Slaanash except for three. I don't know where you got the C'tan killed them. :smallconfused:

[Misery Esquire]

The C'tan never killed any of the Eldar gods. They were consumed by Slaanash except for three. I don't know where you got the C'tan killed them. :smallconfused:

It was a suggestion, not fact. Mostly because the descriptions of them make the "Eldar Gods" sound more like ridiculously powerful Eldar in the material realm, rather than the CG variety of Warp-exsistance.