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View Full Version : Which LA should this race have? (The Nymphling, 3.5 race, PEACH)



Kaiisaxo
2012-03-06, 09:08 PM
Nymphling(Half-nymph)

Some are the offspring of humans and Nymphs, while others (the most) just have one or more Nymph ancestors. Physically they are relatively smaller than humans and almost as tall as elves. Their aspect varies from looking like very short half-elves or even like elves to just look like very beautifull yet short humans. Nymphlings mature fast and have relatively short lifespans, they have no culture of their own, they are integrated into human culture.


+2 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha, -2 Str, -2 Con,
+2 racial bonus on Handle Animal Checks and Knowledge [Nature] Checks
Low Light Vision
Automatic Languages Common and Sylvan. Intelligent Nymphlings can also speak Terran, Gnoll, Gnome and Elven.
Fey Blood, Nymphlings are treated as fey for all purposes, in addition they take 50% extra damage from Cold Iron weapons, this extra damage is always lethal damage, even if the weapon or the blow was non-lethal. A Nymphling handling cold iron weapons becomes sickened for as long as she holds them and 1 hour after that.
Nature link, Handle Animal and Knowledge [Nature] are always class skills for nymphlings
Poor Casting, a Nymphling's Effective Caster level coming from class levels alone can never exceed half her hit dice. A nymphling can still take levels in a spellcasting class beyond that number, however she is treated as having an effective caster level of half her hit dice (min 1) and can only cast as a typical caster of that class for that caster level, for the purposes of spells per day and highest level spell she can cast. (I.E. Allie a 10th level Nymphling Wizard has a caster level of 5 and can only cast as a 5th level wizard and a maximum of 3rd level spells, however Shirei the 8th level Ranger casts as a normal ranger, since ranger's caster level is half their class level). Caster level adjustments coming from feats and domains aren't affected by this reduction, this restriction doesn't affect other class features (including -but not limited to -spells known, bardic music, ability to turn or rebuke undead and bonus feats)
Spell resistance, Nymphlings have spell resistance equal to 10 + half their hit dice
Fey Power, Nymphlings can always make Use Magic Device checks, even if they have no actual ranks on it, whenever they use spell completion and spell trigger items the caster level on the items is increased by half their hit dice or their caster level whichever is higher. In addition Spellcasting Nymphlings have twice the regular amount of spell slots per day and learn twice the regular number of spells known -for spontaneous casters only, wizard nymphlings learn spells as usual. This doesn't include bonus spells from high scores, domains, school specialization and feats. Fey Power takes into account the reduced caster level from poor casting (I.e. a 10th level Nymphling wizard has double the regular spells per day of a 5th level wizard). This benefit only applies to the first spellcasting class the nymphling has, but the nymphling can use the extra slots to preppare or cast any spell she could normally cast with her other(s) spellcasting class(es), the double spells known apply to all classes.
Alignment: Nymphlings are predispossed to chaos over order and to good over evil, however those who despise their fey heritage easilly go lawful and/or evil. Neutral Nymphlings are pretty much unheard of.
Favored Class: Any, they inherit the flexibility from their human ancestors
Level Adjustment: +1



{colsp=5}Height and Weight
Gender|Base Height|Height Modifier|Base Weight|Weight Modifier
male|3 9˝|+2d10|85 lb.| (1d6) lb.
female|3 7˝|+2d10|80 lb.| (1d6) lb.


{colsp=4} Starting Ages
Adulthood|Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer|Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger |Cleric, Druid, Monk, Wizard
14 years|+1d4|+1d6|+2d6


{colsp=4}Ages
Middle Age| Old|Venerable|Maximum Age
30 years|45 years|60 years|+2d10 years

The Mentalist
2012-03-06, 09:31 PM
Umm... -1(maybe even 2)? The stats seem to be a plus for casters and then you add the Poor Casting thing and basically what you're getting from this race is a rogueish sort of thing that I would rather have Strongheart Halfling for (or if we're being less cheesy a regular halfling would do just fine)

Additional things in this race's detriment are becoming unable to overcome DR/Cold Iron (which means either demons or devils are going to be a pain at low levels)

What is this race's intended purpose so we can help you figure out what to make this not terrible. (If it's not meant to be a caster race and clearly it's not then the weak casting is not a balancing act, if it is meant to be a caster race well then the weak casting makes it unplayable)

(Though the evolutionist in me thinks that in a world where magic is the greatest force in the universe a race that is as gimped as this in casting is going to die out fairly quickly unless it has some very massive natural advantages.)

awa
2012-03-06, 11:00 PM
See unless you force people to play this race as full casters the penalty will never come up and thus should have no bearing on LA. I'd probably say LA 1 or 0 depending on how common cold iron is in the setting.

Steward
2012-03-07, 12:51 AM
This class would be great for a rogue, but bad for most other base classes. The whole casting penalty thing is, as the other two posters above noted, irrelevant to noncasters, meaningless to half-casters (like rangers and paladins), and debilitating to full casters -- which, incidentally, guarantees that it won't actually come up in an actual game since anyone who would be bothered by it wouldn't take it since it tears their class in half.

Kaiisaxo
2012-03-07, 10:31 AM
perhaps these features could help, i left them out because I though they were too much
Spell resistance.- Nymphlings have spell resistance equal to half their hit dice.
Source of Power.- Nymphlings can always make Use Magic Device checks, even if they have no actual ranks on it, whenever they use spell completion and spell trigger items the caster level on the items is increased by half their hit dice or their caster level whichever is higher. In addition Spellcasting Nymphlings have twice the regular amount of spell slots per day and learn twice the regular number of spells known -for spontaneous casters only, wizard nymphlings learn spells as usual- (This doesn't include bonus spells from high scores, domains, school specialization and feats)
Nature link.- Handle Animal and knowledge nature are always class skills for nymphlings

Steward
2012-03-07, 11:15 AM
Those look pretty cool to me! I'm not sure how to evaluate the double spellcasting mechanic but it's definitely an interesting concept!

The spell resistance mechanic is also a good choice, but if it's 1/2 their hit dice I'm not sure it would be worth it. At 10th level - with 10th hit dice -, for example, they would only have SR 5, right? (I might be reading this wrong). The Monster Manual recommends having SR equal to the creature's CR + 11, because that grants a character of the same level a 50% chance to penetrate the spell resistance. If it's much lower than that, the spell resistance would be easily penetrated by anyone capable of casting spells in the first place -- it would be the same as if a melee character had an armor class of 5. I'm concerned that -- unless I got the SR mechanic completely wrong -- the nymphling's spell resistance will always be too low to be effective.

JeminiZero
2012-03-07, 11:16 AM
See unless you force people to play this race as full casters the penalty will never come up and thus should have no bearing on LA. I'd probably say LA 1 or 0 depending on how common cold iron is in the setting.

I second this. Even without Spell casters, there are other classes that can make use of that stat bonus like Psionics, Sublime and Binder.


perhaps these features could help, i left them out because I though they were too much

What LA are you aiming to make this?

Kaiisaxo
2012-03-07, 02:34 PM
As low as possible without being unplayable.

Oh and the Spell resistance was 10 + half hit dice.

ericgrau
2012-03-07, 03:06 PM
I'd say LA 1. The ability scores are a weak LA 2 at best, probably a strong LA 1. On a non-caster or partial caster the ability scores are LA 1. Most adventurers never see a foe with cold iron in their lifetime unless you're playing an evil campaign fighting other adventurers. Of course the race will tempt the DM into bringing in a foe with cold iron, but unless he's a **** he'll only do it once or twice. It's more of a problem in a demon or fey heavy campaign where the nymphling has trouble holding a cold iron weapon.

The proper amount for weak spell resistance is 5 + HD. Otherwise you have something that becomes too good at low levels and useless at higher levels. Likewise a scaling UMD bonus becomes more useful later than early. By the time UMD takes off the player would be able to afford a circlet of persuasion and a lot of ranks anyway and the cost of the magic items themselves becomes more of an issue than the UMD modifier. So the UMD bonus isn't too strong. Nature link isn't overpowering either.

With or without the extras the class as-is makes an ok paladin, ranger, rogue or martial with a caster dip. The paladin has drawbacks but also extra benefits beyond what the ranger gets. For each class it's not spectacular but it is barely worth 1 LA. Hmm, given that none of the classes can fully utilize the ability scores you might add the above extra abilities too.

Steward
2012-03-07, 05:33 PM
As low as possible without being unplayable.

Oh and the Spell resistance was 10 + half hit dice.

Does it say that? I really could be wrong, but you should really specify the actual number in the description of the ability. If this thread gets a lot longer, people might miss the clarification if it's not in the original post.

Kaiisaxo
2012-03-07, 05:47 PM
Does it say that? I really could be wrong, but you should really specify the actual number in the description of the ability. If this thread gets a lot longer, people might miss the clarification if it's not in the original post.

Sorry. Will correct that

awa
2012-03-07, 06:30 PM
twice spell slots is really powerful in theory it might be balanced with half caster level, but i think in practice players will just avoid any spell that cares about caster level. Their are a lot of spells like say charm person or enervation which are not heavily dependent on caster level.

That said i have no idea how you would determine the LA of something like that

Anton Spohn
2012-03-07, 07:14 PM
At current this race is highly limited and overpowered at the same time.

It should have a +2 or +3 LA seeing the powers that it gains. +2 seems to make the most sense.

Reasons are that it has a +8 total stat gain, free SR, and strange synergy with skills that thematically work but i'm not sure exactly to fit that in or if it needs to be.

The poor casting and fey blood shouldn't decrease the LA, those just seem to be arcane (as in hard to understand) rules, like those presented in 1st & 2nd that prevented dwarves from being arcane casters.

Steward
2012-03-07, 08:05 PM
twice spell slots is really powerful in theory it might be balanced with half caster level, but i think in practice players will just avoid any spell that cares about caster level. Their are a lot of spells like say charm person or enervation which are not heavily dependent on caster level.

That said i have no idea how you would determine the LA of something like that

Yeah, it's definitely a really unique and compelling mechanic. I think play-testing would be needed to see how these things interact. While there are definite workarounds, I'm not sure if it would even out to being weaker or stronger than a more traditional race.

ericgrau
2012-03-07, 09:23 PM
Double spells per day and known isn't huge power bump compared to a higher max level. Full casters still won't want to be this race. It does boost partial casters and make them more magical since they don't have very many spells per day, though even then you're doubling something that's quite small. So it's a boost but not a huge one, not even worth a full LA.

I don't agree that the ability scores are too much for the LA. Mental stats aren't as good as normal when you can't be a full caster. And even then only one mental stat matters. Multiple mental stat bumps aren't that strong. Physically it's +2 dex, -2 str, -2 con, behind LA 0, and then the non-caster classes get minor bumps from the mental abilities.

Likewise almost nothing this race gets is too overpowering even for LA 1. It gets a lot of things but they're little. The one exception is the SR, which I still think is wonky. At level 1 it's too strong for LA 1. At level 20 it's utterly useless. SR 5 + HD instead of 10 + HD/2 would scale properly and still be weaker than normal SR.

Kaiisaxo
2012-03-07, 11:38 PM
Ok, fixed the SR and explained a little better the Poor casting/Fey power thing. Damn balancing this one race is proving hard, I don't want to imagine how overpowered other races are going to be. (the next two are a pair of race and related template leading to the race)

awa
2012-03-08, 12:10 AM
ahh i misunderstood about how the half caster level worked i didn't realize it affected what level spells you could cast.