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Phosphate
2012-03-07, 07:27 AM
In no particular order and for no particular reason.


Xanatos Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: Apply this feat to a level 4 or higher spell first, this will hereby be referred to as the primary spell. To be eligible for this feat, the primary spell must offer a saving throw (harmless does not count). Then, select another spell, at least 3 levels lower than the first one. This is the secondary spell. A secondary spell must not be a Conjuration spell and must not have a range of Self. It must also not have any components except for S and V. When the primary spell is used, if the target or targets succeed the saving throw, they will be affected by the secondary spell. A spell to which this feat applies uses a spell slot equal to the sum of the primary and the secondary spells.
Special: You can take this feat twice. If taken a second time, the difference in level between the primary and secondary spell need only be 2 or higher.

Contact Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: Apply this feat to a spell with a range of Close or higher. It becomes touch, but all variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A contact spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spellís actual level.

Program Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: Apply this feat to a spell whose duration is dependent on concentration. You don't need to concentrate on the spell (it basically concentrates on itself) for either half the maximum duration or 1 minute, whichever is lower. The spell also directs itself according to your will without needing you to concentrate (or if you're unconscious, the last command you gave it). A programmed spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.
Special: You can apply this feat twice to the same spell. If you do so, you won't need to concentrate on it for the entire duration or 2 minutes, whichever is lower, but you will use up a spell slot two levels higher.

Modular Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: A modular spell uses up spell slots one level lower than the spell's actual level, but uses two of them instead of one. Cannot be applied to level 1 and 0 spells.

Personalize Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: A personalized spell cannot be counterspelled by an identical spell, and if counterspelled with Dispel or Greater Dispel, gains +4 to DC. Uses a spell slot 1 level higher than that of the original spell.

Partial Recall Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: Apply this feat to a Mass spell. After that spell is used, you may use its single target variant without expending a spell slot. A partially recalled spell uses a spell slot 2 levels higher than its level.

Disintegrating Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: The bodies of all targets killed by a spell modified by this feat are turned to dust. A disintegrating spell uses a spell slot 1 level higher than its level.

Innate Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: (spontaneous casters only) An innate spell uses a spell slot 1 level higher for every other (other=except this one) metamagic feat on it. However, there is no penalty to casting time.

JoshuaZ
2012-03-07, 11:26 AM
Some of these are quite interesting, but there are some mechanical/balance issues.




Xanatos Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: Apply this feat to a level 4 or higher spell first, this will hereby be referred to as the primary spell. To be eligible for this feat, the primary spell must offer a saving throw (harmless does not count). Then, select another spell, at least 3 levels lower than the first one. This is the secondary spell. A secondary spell must not be a Conjuration spell and must not have a range of Self. When the primary spell is used, if the target or targets succeed the saving throw, they will be affected by the secondary spell. A spell to which this feat applies uses a spell slot equal to the sum of the primary and the secondary spells.
Special: You can take this feat twice. If taken a second time, the difference in level between the primary and secondary spell need only be 2 or higher.

I'm not clear on the wording here. Do they get their normal saving throw on the secondary spell? Is the secondary spell actually cast? Do you need to use its material components and focus?



Benefit: Apply this feat to a spell with a range of Close or higher. It becomes touch, but all variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A contact spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spellís actual level.

This seems problematic since their are some other features and metamagics which only work on touch spells. So one can use this to easily get maximized spells that would not normally be touch.



Program Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: Apply this feat to a spell whose duration is dependent on concentration. You don't need to concentrate on the spell (it basically concentrates on itself) for either half the maximum duration or 1 minute, whichever is lower. A programmed spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.
Special: You can apply this feat twice to the same spell. If you do so, you won't need to concentrate on it for the entire duration or 2 minutes, whichever is lower, but you will use up a spell slot two levels higher.

At the end of the program duration does the spell cease or can you resume concentration? It isn't clear from the wording. Also, some concentration spells allow you to direct the spell, can you choose during a programmed spell to concentrate to direct a round? Or does that now not take any concentration? This should be specified. Also, a suggestion: it might make sense to be able to apply the feat more than twice, each time increasing the maximum programmed time by 1 minute.



Modular Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: A modular spell uses up spell slots one level lower than the spell's actual level, but uses two of them instead of one. Cannot be applied to level 1 and 0 spells.

This is much too broken. One of the primary limiting features on casters is that they have a maximum number daily of how many times they can cast their highest level spells. In contrast for example to psions who can do something similar but have other restrictions (fewer options for spells (powers) and restricted metamagic (metapsionics).

Personalize Spell [Metamagic]



Benefit: A personalized spell cannot be counterspelled by an identical spell, and if counterspelled with Dispel or Greater Dispel, gains +4 to DC. Uses a spell slot 1 level higher than that of the original spell.

This one I like a lot. It is interesting and not overpowered. Since counterspelling is rare in most games, I suspect that this won't get used much.

Partial Recall is interesting, but I'm confused by the time limit. Do you use the single target variant on that same turn or within some time limit? That should be specified.

Disintegrating and Innate look fine although it seems to me that many people just houserule away the increased caster time for spontaneous casters anyways, and it would seem to be roughly the cost of a single feat to just get rid of that, without any level increase, so innate may be underpowered.

Cieyrin
2012-03-07, 11:46 AM
I don't see how Modular is broken, as Versatile Caster allows going in the opposite direction, so how does going in the opposite direction automatically become broken? :smallconfused:

JoshuaZ
2012-03-07, 12:06 PM
I don't see how Modular is broken, as Versatile Caster allows going in the opposite direction, so how does going in the opposite direction automatically become broken? :smallconfused:

Versatile allows you to make more low level spells out of high level spell slots. The issue is that one of the major limits on spellcasters is how many times they can cast their highest level spells daily. A 10th level wizard might for example have 3 5th level spells a day and that's it, even as he has a lot of 4th level slots. That means that often if one has four encounters daily one doesn't necessarily even get a chance to use a spell of one's highest level in every encounter. Being able to bump up spells like this substantially removes that restriction.

This is related to how high-level casters are much more restricted by total number of actions than total number of spells. So if one can in the same action cast a higher level spell even when burning more spells total, that makes one stronger.

legomaster00156
2012-03-07, 12:27 PM
Now I want to kill someone with a Disintegrating Magic Missile. :smallbiggrin:

Phosphate
2012-03-07, 01:14 PM
Do they get their normal saving throw on the secondary spell?

The metamagic says they will be affected by the secondary spell. So no.


Is the secondary spell actually cast?

Since it specifically says the metamagic applies to the primary spell, no, the secondary spell is not cast. It just starts existing right when the primary's save is passed.


Do you need to use its material components and focus?

Ah, thanks for noticing. I will rewrite the description so that you are not allowed to select a secondary spell that has M or F.


This seems problematic since their are some other features and metamagics which only work on touch spells. So one can use this to easily get maximized spells that would not normally be touch.

2 levels higher slot =/= easily


At the end of the program duration does the spell cease or can you resume concentration?

The wording is rather clear. You don't need, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T concentrate, both during the duration and afterwards. As for directing, it directs itself without you concentrating, I will add that. As for getting it multiple times...eh...I don't know.


This is much too broken. One of the primary limiting features on casters is that they have a maximum number daily of how many times they can cast their highest level spells. In contrast for example to psions who can do something similar but have other restrictions (fewer options for spells (powers) and restricted metamagic (metapsionics).

I think there was a spell in CA that either reduced or increased slot level by 1 for free...not sure though. Will look.



Partial Recall is interesting, but I'm confused by the time limit. Do you use the single target variant on that same turn or within some time limit? That should be specified.

It just says after. You may do it any time you want. Even over 20 years.


many people just houserule away the increased caster time for spontaneous casters anyways

Um...does that actually happen?!
Anyway, usually when I homebrew I do it by assuming that every other mechanic works by RAW. Because otherwise I would have to give like 10 variants for most things for them to fit, which is unfeasible.


Now I want to kill someone with a Disintegrating Magic Missile. :smallbiggrin:

Certainly doable :). I hate raising.

Cieyrin
2012-03-07, 01:53 PM
Versatile allows you to make more low level spells out of high level spell slots. The issue is that one of the major limits on spellcasters is how many times they can cast their highest level spells daily. A 10th level wizard might for example have 3 5th level spells a day and that's it, even as he has a lot of 4th level slots. That means that often if one has four encounters daily one doesn't necessarily even get a chance to use a spell of one's highest level in every encounter. Being able to bump up spells like this substantially removes that restriction.

This is related to how high-level casters are much more restricted by total number of actions than total number of spells. So if one can in the same action cast a higher level spell even when burning more spells total, that makes one stronger.

Versatile already does that, though, without having to preparing your spells specifically that way. It's specific to Spontaneous casters, sure, but this is the poor man's version for prepared casters.

Also, look at the Wizard spell table, at 10th he has 3-4 4ths, that's not 'a lot,' that's one more than the 5ths and, b/c he has to prepare 2 of those lower level slots to cast a higher slot, he shoots his versatility in the foot. Yes, it gives him an option to mess with his slots some but that doesn't mean he's suddenly all-powerful for being able to throw out an extra Teleport or Cloudkill. If that were so, Pearls of Power would be banned from play from most tables.

If it's really concerning, maybe some prereqs are warranted? 1-2 other metamagics and ranks in Knowledge(Arcana), mayhaps?

ericgrau
2012-03-07, 01:55 PM
Xanatos spell: For every spell level 5 and above, I'd much rather quicken the secondary spell and have it work whether the primary spell fails or not. Instead of taking a level 7+ slot. And taking the feat twice makes the total spell level higher, so that doesn't help either. I think this should give a flat +X levels to the primary spell. Maybe +2 since the secondary spell only works when the first spell fails.

As-is it scales poorly, at 2 spell levels in cost per spell level gained by the player. So it's better on low level spells and bad on higher level spells. You seem to realize this with the level 4 minimum, but do also realize that higher levels become too lousy to be worth it. Hence the more standard metamagic cost.

Contact: Cool. The main thing keeping me from a melee caster concept is that the list of good touch spells is too short.

Program Spell: +1 is reasonable for detect spells. But for illusion (Figment)'s this is the illusionist's dream, and for illusion (pattern)'s and other "screw foe every round" spells it might get downright broken. I'd do at least +2.

Modular Spell: I agree that this will be used to break one of the few limitations on high level spells. Especially on higher level casters with too many spell slots and limited use for the lower level ones. Even if you think 6th level spells are still worth something on someone who cast 7th level spells, he can just sub in 5th level spells for 6th, etc. all the way down to spell levels he doesn't really need. I'm afraid this is a matter of action economy and AFAIK there isn't any good way to make this work.

Personalized Spell: Cool, but really limited in use. I might add more things it can do, perhaps make it resistant to a few other minor things like spellcraft and so on. Some fluff effects would be nice too. That way it it doesn't have such an extremely narrow application. Perhaps "Spellcraft cannot identify a personalized spell while it is being cast, but it can determine the spell from its effect if that effect is perceptible (and that DC is typically higher). Effects that work against a specific spell, such as spell immunity, fail to work against a personalized spell." Maybe more than that.

Partial Recall Spell: The mass spell is already much higher level than its single target variant. I'd make this +0. I mean I'm not sure how a caster would even use it that often or get much out of it even when he does. He doesn't even cast the recalled spell right away he has to spend another turn on it later. It's really only useful on someone who spams mass spells, and even then the application is minor because the recalled spell is relatively weak.

Disintegrating Spell: Sweet for anti-ressurection/anti-evidence body cleanup, especially on sorcerers who can apply only when needed. I like interesting effects like this. Good point on using it on magic missile for a low level finishing blow. You might also have disintegrating burning hands for after battle cleanup. But since this takes extra time and because there are other ways to cleanup after combat is over it's not a broken trick.

Innate Spell: Likewise cool for spontaneous caster flexibility, and a way to get quicken.

Phosphate
2012-03-07, 02:35 PM
Xanatos spell: For every spell level 5 and above, I'd much rather quicken the secondary spell and have it work whether the primary spell fails or not.[quote]

Instead of using a single slot?

[quote]Instead of taking a level 7+ slot. And taking the feat twice makes the total spell level higher, so that doesn't help either. I think this should give a flat +X levels to the primary spell. Maybe +2 since the secondary spell only works when the first spell fails.

As-is it scales poorly, at 2 spell levels in cost per spell level gained by the player. So it's better on low level spells and bad on higher level spells. You seem to realize this with the level 4 minimum, but do also realize that higher levels become too lousy to be worth it. Hence the more standard metamagic cost.

Should I make it either primary spell level +2 or sum, whichever is lower? (since the secondary can be level 0 or 1)


Program Spell: +1 is reasonable for detect spells. But for illusion (Figment)'s this is the illusionist's dream, and for illusion (pattern)'s and other "screw foe every round" spells it might get downright broken. I'd do at least +2.

Considering that there are already ITEMS that concentrate on your behalf anyway, I find no reason to make this any weaker.


Modular Spell: I agree that this will be used to break one of the few limitations on high level spells. Especially on higher level casters with too many spell slots and limited use for the lower level ones. Even if you think 6th level spells are still worth something on someone who cast 7th level spells, he can just sub in 5th level spells for 6th, etc. all the way down to spell levels he doesn't really need. I'm afraid this is a matter of action economy and AFAIK there isn't any good way to make this work.

In case I understand you correctly, he'd use this multiple times to like cast a level 9 using 8 level 6 slots? Not possible, I never said it can be applied more than once.


Personalized Spell: Cool, but really limited in use. I might add more things it can do, perhaps make it resistant to a few other minor things like spellcraft and so on. Some fluff effects would be nice too. That way it it doesn't have such an extremely narrow application. Perhaps "Spellcraft cannot identify a personalized spell while it is being cast, but it can determine the spell from its effect if that effect is perceptible (and that DC is typically higher). Effects that work against a specific spell, such as spell immunity, fail to work against a personalized spell." Maybe more than that.

There are many dispelling effects out there. Also, you'd really want at least a couple of those when you know you'll face someone with sorcerer levels. Plus I really don't know what to add whilst keeping it at +0.



Partial Recall Spell: The mass spell is already much higher level than its single target variant. I'd make this +0. I mean I'm not sure how a caster would even use it that often or get much out of it even when he does. He doesn't even cast the recalled spell right away he has to spend another turn on it later. It's really only useful on someone who spams mass spells, and even then the application is minor because the recalled spell is relatively weak.

It gives you a free spell. That must count for something. Plus that free spell can be kept (and you can stack them as much as you'd like).

Cieyrin
2012-03-07, 02:49 PM
In case I understand you correctly, he'd use this multiple times to like cast a level 9 using 8 level 6 slots? Not possible, I never said it can be applied more than once.

No, I believe what's being said isn't that you can recurse up, just that you can pump your lower level spells into higher level ones, so instead of 6 1sts, 5 2nds, 4 3rds, 3 4ths and 2 5ths, you have 4 2nds, 2 3rds, 2 4ths and 3 5ths or some combination of moving old spell slots into being new spell slots.

ericgrau
2012-03-07, 02:50 PM
Instead of using a single slot?

...

Should I make it either primary spell level +2 or sum, whichever is lower?

Ya, as said with modular spell the lower level slot isn't that big of a deal. I suppose the lower of primary level + 2 or sum is fine, only because there isn't much you can do to abuse a free targeted cantrip.



Considering that there are already ITEMS that concentrate on your behalf anyway, I find no reason to make this any weaker.

Darn power creep. Eh, fine.



In case I understand you correctly, he'd use this multiple times to like cast a level 9 using 8 level 6 slots? Not possible, I never said it can be applied more than once.

No, he'd use level 8 slots to get level 9 slots. Then he'd use level 7 slots to get level 8 slots. But even if he lost the level 8s without replacing them, having the extra 9s is already too powerful.



There are many dispelling effects out there. Also, you'd really want at least a couple of those when you know you'll face someone with sorcerer levels. Plus I really don't know what to add whilst keeping it at +0.

Doesn't the first post say it's +1 metamagic?



It gives you a free spell. That must count for something. Plus that free spell can be kept (and you can stack them as much as you'd like).
Ya, but it's a free low level spell and it's not quickened. Or is the free spell cast immediately without taking an action? Otherwise even a few of those low level spells might not be worth more than the feat itself. I wouldn't pay +1 for it in any case.

Phosphate
2012-03-07, 03:09 PM
No, he'd use level 8 slots to get level 9 slots. Then he'd use level 7 slots to get level 8 slots. But even if he lost the level 8s without replacing them, having the extra 9s is already too powerful.

Ok, I'll think about it. It just doesn't feel that big a deal to me.


Doesn't the first post say it's +1 metamagic?

Yes, I meant +1, sorry.


Ya, but it's a free low level spell and it's not quickened. Or is the free spell cast immediately without taking an action? Otherwise even a few of those low level spells might not be worth more than the feat itself. I wouldn't pay +1 for it in any case.

Just an example.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mass_Effect_Spell_%283.5e_Feat%29
By using this and that, you get a free level 4 spell. Level 4 spells are useful at any level.

Also, it's useful because of mass healing spells. And free healing is always good.

ericgrau
2012-03-07, 03:28 PM
If it was quickened, sure. But if you're casting 7th or 8th level spells then a 4th level spell is only worth so much. You have 20 other better spells to spend your few rounds of combat on, and the ability to heal with wands between combat for next to no gp. Heck half of those 20 better spells aren't even worth casting in combat.

The thing with both partial recall spell and modular spell is action economy. You can only do so many things in a combat. Weak options you don't have time for are very minor. Stronger options in the limited time you have are very major. Trading up is way overpowered, trading down is underpowered. Even if you trade a hundred things you don't have time for anyway to get one thing you do have time for, or vis versa.

For personalize spell, I don't think adding more benefits is too much for a +1 metamagic as long as they apply to different things. As-is, you rarely ever use it so it's not really worth taking the feat on 98% of characters. It's like having a feat that gives a +1 to attack rolls against orcs. Also giving you a +1 to attack rolls against goblins, lizardfolk, trolls and hill giants and 17 other creatures does not make it wtf-overpowered. It's still much weaker than a +1 to attack rolls against everything. You could add even more minor things that a personalized spell bypasses, and it still wouldn't be overpowered. As long as those things don't combo with the feat's existing benefits nor eachother.

There are at least 5 cool metamagics listed though. I'm just trying to keep these 2 from never getting selected or modular spell from breaking games.

JoshuaZ
2012-03-07, 03:55 PM
Ok. If they don't get a save on the secondary spell for the Xanatos metamagic then it leads to really nasty stuff like pairing a save-or-die spell with a spell that's in the same category or close to it. For example, Slay Living is Cleric 5, and Blindness/Deafness is Clr 3, so you now have a touch attack that does "die or be blinded" which even for a level 8 spell is pretty nasty. Similarly, a wizard could attach all sorts of nasty suckage to a phantasmal killer. Color Spray secondary to Phantasmal Killer would be only 6th level. And if this gets ever to even low level epic then one can make spells that say "save or die. You made the save? Then die".

Cieyrin
2012-03-07, 04:00 PM
You know, speaking further on Modular spell, how does it function when you attempt to cast it? It's spread across two slots, so do you need to cast both at their default casting time? That seems like a major drawback, as having to use a Belt of Battle or Celerity just to cast it one round seems counter-productive. Perhaps useful for ritual length spells (what's an extra hour if it already took 1?) but not combat compatible.