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t209
2012-03-09, 07:43 PM
Which chosen One will win?
Barsoom (John Carter)- a human on hostile Martian Enviroment.
Maudib (Paul Atreides)- a noble heir who lives in Fremen in Arrakis.
They will choose their weapons.
SInce I do not read Princess of Mars but only read dune, Maudib will have Sandworm knife and forcefield that can only be passed by melee.

Axolotl
2012-03-09, 07:51 PM
Paul wins by a fairly wide margin, I mean he has all his magic powers and can see the future and stuff, combine that with all his training and general skills and the breeding program stuff he's very powerful. Carter on the other hand is mainly exceptional because he can jump really far and has super-strength both of which he only has because of Mars' lower gravity, take that away and he's just a badass war veteran.

Coidzor
2012-03-09, 11:21 PM
What? I thought Barsoom was what the natives called their world. They really called John Carter that? :smallconfused:

The Glyphstone
2012-03-09, 11:30 PM
Yeah - the divinatory powers aren't much use in one-on-one duels, but Paul is well-trained and practiced on top of being mildly superhuman and able to do things like dull his pain and keep fighting unhindered. In Earth-standard gravity, JC is only the first two, and to a lesser degree since his training would primatize guns over melee. He might get lucky, but it's probably 70-80 percent in favor of Paul.

shadow_archmagi
2012-03-09, 11:38 PM
Yeah - the divinatory powers aren't much use in one-on-one duels, but Paul is well-trained and practiced on top of being mildly superhuman and able to do things like dull his pain and keep fighting unhindered. In Earth-standard gravity, JC is only the first two, and to a lesser degree since his training would primatize guns over melee. He might get lucky, but it's probably 70-80 percent in favor of Paul.


If Paul starts with a Shield, then it's extremely unlikely that John is going to be able to even recognize the secret to bypassing a shield- and even then, he still has to defeat a master swordsman.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-10, 12:57 AM
One important power being forgotten:

Paul: Drop Your Weapon
J. Carter: *drops*
Paul: *guts with crysknife*

Also I must correct a major misconception that shields don't work in melee. They do. Quite well actually, hence why the combat styles operate on finesse, because you have to get your opponent off guard enough to make a slow enough strike to get through.


Yeah - the divinatory powers aren't much use in one-on-one duels,

Except when they are exactly that accurate, like when he's going around blind and running on pure prescience. I doubt there's room in the Golden Path for letting himself be gutted before his time.

Ursus the Grim
2012-03-10, 01:34 AM
I haven't seen John Carter, but I've got to throw support in with Paul Atreides on this one. Depending on what point of Dune we're going from, I would say it ranges anywhere from 60% to 95% in his favor. Even early on he's extraordinarily clever, well-trained, and athletic, even beyond the action hero that John Carter appears to be. If he's left with then Voice, then poor Carter's really got nothing he can do.

SaintRidley
2012-03-10, 03:14 AM
Yeah. Voice alone pretty much wins this one for Paul.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-10, 03:21 AM
John Carter isn't called Barsoom, he's called John Carter - Barsoom is what the aborigenes call Mars.
And Paul's isn't called Maudib, it's Muad'dib. And he probably won't fight against John anyways, he'd rather bring John on his side.

The Glyphstone
2012-03-10, 07:54 AM
Except when they are exactly that accurate, like when he's going around blind and running on pure prescience. I doubt there's room in the Golden Path for letting himself be gutted before his time.

The problem is that his destiny is pretty much a literal Plot Shield, and it's common practice to discount those in versus matches due to Divide by Zero errors otherwise. The good news is that he doesn't need to see the future to beat John. And I hadn't even considered the Voice.

WalkingTarget
2012-03-10, 09:24 AM
The problem is that his destiny is pretty much a literal Plot Shield, and it's common practice to discount those in versus matches due to Divide by Zero errors otherwise. The good news is that he doesn't need to see the future to beat John. And I hadn't even considered the Voice.

One issue with Voice is that it keys off of the target's psychology rather than being a generalized technique (unless we're in the movie version of Dune). Except for weak-minded, predictable mooks (which Carter is not) the user has to get to know the subject somewhat in order to learn what Authority buttons to press - not always easy in the middle of a fight.

Anyway, yeah, what others said - prana bindu and mentat training, slight prescience granted by the spice (and the longer forms based on the combination of this and the mentat stuff), Holtzman shield... I can't see this working out well for Carter.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-10, 11:22 AM
One issue with Voice is that it keys off of the target's psychology rather than being a generalized technique (unless we're in the movie version of Dune). Except for weak-minded, predictable mooks (which Carter is not) the user has to get to know the subject somewhat in order to learn what Authority buttons to press - not always easy in the middle of a fight.

Except a generalized technique is how it works. At least the simple forms you'd need to say have someone drop a weapon. They will know something happened but they will reflexively obey before they can consciously process what happened. Any real resistance comes from Bene Gesserit training itself.

shadow_archmagi
2012-03-10, 11:27 AM
One issue with Voice is that it keys off of the target's psychology rather than being a generalized technique (unless we're in the movie version of Dune). Except for weak-minded, predictable mooks (which Carter is not) the user has to get to know the subject somewhat in order to learn what Authority buttons to press - not always easy in the middle of a fight.

Carter's a soldier at the start of the movie, right? That'd be something that Paul could pick up on immediately (He can tell the difference between Harkonen and Saudukar soldiers in identical uniforms) and exploit- Soldiers are supposed to follow commands.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-10, 05:51 PM
One issue with Voice is that it keys off of the target's psychology rather than being a generalized technique (unless we're in the movie version of Dune). Except for weak-minded, predictable mooks (which Carter is not) the user has to get to know the subject somewhat in order to learn what Authority buttons to press - not always easy in the middle of a fight.

Thufir Hawat was far from weak-minded, and Jessica had no problem using the Voice on him. I know, I know - she had known him for many years, but what I mean is she didn't press his buttons and try to affect his behaviour, it was just that his body reacted before his mind was able to analyze what's happening. A split second, perhaps - but that means something in the middle of a fight.

WalkingTarget
2012-03-11, 04:29 PM
Thufir Hawat was far from weak-minded, and Jessica had no problem using the Voice on him. I know, I know - she had known him for many years, but what I mean is she didn't press his buttons and try to affect his behaviour, it was just that his body reacted before his mind was able to analyze what's happening. A split second, perhaps - but that means something in the middle of a fight.

Weak-minded has less to do with it than, say, the Jedi mind trick. It's all about knowing the subject well enough to know how to get a reaction. My favorite example in the first book being the soldiers flying Jessica and Paul out to the desert to die. Jessica got them to fight over her by saying that there was no reason to fight over her (along with some body language since one of the soldiers was deaf) - she triggered their libidos rather than giving a direct order to do something. Even this was after at least some observation time.

I'd say that the Thufir example is well suited for my point - she knew him a very long time - she knows how to say something to get that instant reaction with him. Mentats and people who have training in the Voice are better able to resist it, the fact that she can get a response from Thufir at all shows her skill in reading him. "Pressing buttons" isn't all introspection and shifting motivations, it's down to knowing what will register with a person on a subconscious level - which is not one-size-fits-all.

However:


Carter's a soldier at the start of the movie, right? That'd be something that Paul could pick up on immediately (He can tell the difference between Harkonen and Saudukar soldiers in identical uniforms) and exploit- Soldiers are supposed to follow commands.

That is something I hadn't considered when I posted my first response - the soldier angle. That probably would be an easy set of mental levers to get a hold on with Voice, at least long enough for an opening (not that I think it's particularly necessary for Paul to win a fight with Carter).

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-11, 08:14 PM
Weak-minded has less to do with it than, say, the Jedi mind trick. It's all about knowing the subject well enough to know how to get a reaction. My favorite example in the first book being the soldiers flying Jessica and Paul out to the desert to die. Jessica got them to fight over her by saying that there was no reason to fight over her (along with some body language since one of the soldiers was deaf) - she triggered their libidos rather than giving a direct order to do something. Even this was after at least some observation time.

That's not the Voice that's ordinary manipulation. Related but also besides the point. Observe how by your own statements how it worked on the deaf guard, who was sent to resist simply being told "Let Us Go" or something. The Harkonnens were sly enough to guard against obvious powers but underestimated Jessica's other abilites.

Contrast the first use of the Voice, by the Reverend Mother on Paul. Who orders him and he is obeying before he can stop himself. The Voice is not or at least not only a bevy of manipulation methods (though Bene Gesserit master those too) but a "Voice of Command" where through tone of voice one asserts authority so compelling it is obeyed at the subconscious level bypassing a person personality entirely.

WalkingTarget
2012-03-11, 10:01 PM
That's not the Voice that's ordinary manipulation. Related but also besides the point. Observe how by your own statements how it worked on the deaf guard, who was sent to resist simply being told "Let Us Go" or something. The Harkonnens were sly enough to guard against obvious powers but underestimated Jessica's other abilites.

Contrast the first use of the Voice, by the Reverend Mother on Paul. Who orders him and he is obeying before he can stop himself. The Voice is not or at least not only a bevy of manipulation methods (though Bene Gesserit master those too) but a "Voice of Command" where through tone of voice one asserts authority so compelling it is obeyed at the subconscious level bypassing a person personality entirely.

...I'll agree that the "no need to fight" bit probably isn't Voice after looking at it again*.

I don't actually own a copy of Dune to look through. I have found that portions of it are available in a Google Books preview, and reading through that scene in particular Jessica's thoughts include things like critiquing Paul's attempt at Voice (thinking he pitched his voice too high) but still believing that it "could fall within this man's spectrum" [my emphasis] which implies that it's not a blanket ability. The practitioner has to "register" the target, which doesn't always take long; just hearing them in normal conversation for a few minutes was enough in that instance.

I'd even grant, via some sort of indoctrination and possibly natural inclination/personality types, that it's possible that groups of people could be susceptible to the same instance of Voice - it doesn't always have to be one-on-one, but it's still adjusted as needed.

I really don't think I got this idea from nowhere, and I wish I had a copy of the book handy to look through more thoroughly.

*I think that I was thrown off by the discussion of Paul's Voice and what pitch he used being immediately followed by Jessica pitching her voice (lower-case) in "low, intimate tones", etc.

Fri
2012-03-12, 04:28 AM
In my opinion, Paul Muaddib is in the vs thread level of Luke Skywalker. I mean, something in the line of, can John Carter be in a vs thread with Luke Skywalker? If not, then I don't really think he got that much chance again Paul.

This isn't actually about power level or something... well, maybe it is about power level.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-12, 07:59 AM
I really don't think I got this idea from nowhere, and I wish I had a copy of the book handy to look through more thoroughly.

I think the issue comes in meaning different things. There are a lot of Bene Gesserit manipulation methods out there. And I probably shouldn't say the Voice is just the one thing. However I think the difference is in how subtle do you want to be. The broadest and crassest that leave you wondering why you obey a command for example... isn't that useful in the Duneverse because its so obvious.

More complex manipulation need more complex knowledge... but for this thread there really isn't anything simpler then getting some to Stop or Drop It and procede to gut them while they wonder why they did that.

Quite aside from all Paul's other superhuman attributes to draw on.

WalkingTarget
2012-03-12, 08:15 AM
The broadest and crassest that leave you wondering why you obey a command for example...

That's the point of contention, though. My understanding of even the broadest and crassest form of Voice was that it required some knowledge of the target's mindset - the tone of voice and inflection that registers as a subconscious command differs from person to person, although there is a "spectrum" so it's possible to ballpark it like Paul did.

Lacking the book to flip through for a relevant passage, though, I'm content to let it drop (especially since we've both mentioned at this point that it's not even required for Paul to win this one). :smallsmile:

Selrahc
2012-03-12, 08:23 AM
That's the point of contention, though. My understanding of even the broadest and crassest form of Voice was that it required some knowledge of the target's mindset - the tone of voice and inflection that registers as a subconscious command differs from person to person, although there is a "spectrum" so it's possible to ballpark it like Paul did.


Yes. That's how it is explained. Without being targeted it isn't guaranteed to be effective, and will certainly be less effective.

It's also not entirely vocal. Jessica at one point partially controls a deaf guard just through body movements aimed at his psyche.


If Paul starts with a Shield, then it's extremely unlikely that John is going to be able to even recognize the secret to bypassing a shield-

Yes. Shield fighting is a very very odd form of combat. Even an expert fighter would be blindsided by it. I'd say even if told what to expect, it would throw a good fighter right off their game.

Tiktakkat
2012-03-13, 06:25 PM
John Carter has a latent telepathic ability that would make him immune to being manipulated by the Voice.

If Paul Atreides were so dishonorable as to use a Shield, John Carter would just pull out a radium pistol and deal with him that way. Since the pistol uses explosive radioactive rounds, even if they got caught in the shield they would simply explode and roast Muad'dib inside his own coward's cloak.

As for prescience and destiny, recall that John Carter is likely immortal, and may well be an incarnation of Mars itself/himself. Some side effect of a breeding experiment has no chance against that, drug enhanced powers or not.

Most importantly, John Carter would never marry a woman against her will and for purely political ends, and would in fact go out of his way to subvert such a plan as no true gentleman would ever take advantage of a woman like that, family loyalties and political neccessity notwithstanding.

Ursus the Grim
2012-03-13, 06:54 PM
Carter would just pull out a radium pistol and deal with him that way. Since the pistol uses explosive radioactive rounds, even if they got caught in the shield they would simply explode and roast Muad'dib inside his own coward's cloak.

Well, someone feels rather strongly about this, no? Even assuming that

Carter's telepathic link makes him less subject to the Voice.
Carter would detect the cloak and resort to firearms before Paul gutted him.
The explosion of the 'radium pistol' would interact with the cloak as you described, despite the velocity of the explosion likely being above the field threshold.
Your conjecture of Carter's theoretical godly links shake off the prescience of the father of a God-Emperor.
Paul's character (as in personality) has anything to do with his ability as a combatant.


If we get to "well I've got a dinosaur that eats force-field dogs", I think Paul wins out with "I've got a sandworm half a league in length". Even ignoring the power he can muster at his peak as Emperor and trying to nullify all other advantages, he still has the edge in that regard.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-13, 07:26 PM
If Paul Atreides were so dishonorable as to use a Shield, John Carter would just pull out a radium pistol and deal with him that way. Since the pistol uses explosive radioactive rounds, even if they got caught in the shield they would simply explode and roast Muad'dib inside his own coward's cloak.

Do you know why open combat revolves around shields and melee combat in the Duneverse. Because they are that effective. Its considered innovative that the Harkonnens revived artillery because anywhere but Arrakis it would have been pointless.

So unless you have some particular reason why Barsoomian radium pistols work radically differently from normal shells or explosives I'm not seeing how. Or do you suggest they pack the raw power of the Worms?

t209
2012-03-13, 08:18 PM
Do you know why open combat revolves around shields and melee combat in the Duneverse. Because they are that effective. Its considered innovative that the Harkonnens revived artillery because anywhere but Arrakis it would have been pointless.

So unless you have some particular reason why Barsoomian radium pistols work radically differently from normal shells or explosives I'm not seeing how. Or do you suggest they pack the raw power of the Worms?

Is it energy weapon? If this "pistol" is a laser gun, it could kill both John Carter and Paul Atreides. Energy weapon+ energy shield= kaboom!

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-13, 08:29 PM
Is it energy weapon? If this "pistol" is a laser gun, it could kill both John Carter and Paul Atreides. Energy weapon+ energy shield= kaboom!

Given that I'm finding it as radium shells and the age of the work, I'm going with no and that its bullets made with radium.

For that matter its shield+lasgun not energy weapon and its a specific feedback that results mutual destruction. Given that they don't for example explode in the sun or just standing around I'd be very reluctant to extend it to energy weapons at large.

The Anarresti
2012-03-13, 09:56 PM
I agree with the point of the radium pistol being able to hurt Paul through the shield, as the radiation would be able to penetrate the shield even if the bullet does not. Remember, the shield is transparent: it allows light through, and radiation is a form of light.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-13, 10:22 PM
I agree with the point of the radium pistol being able to hurt Paul through the shield, as the radiation would be able to penetrate the shield even if the bullet does not. Remember, the shield is transparent: it allows light through, and radiation is a form of light.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj7dhtY03Z1qafrh6.gif

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I really shouldn't laugh but I'm having a Poe's Law case and can't tell if you are seriously suggesting this. Because right now its the best joke I've heard in days.

Ursus the Grim
2012-03-13, 10:26 PM
I agree with the point of the radium pistol being able to hurt Paul through the shield, as the radiation would be able to penetrate the shield even if the bullet does not. Remember, the shield is transparent: it allows light through, and radiation is a form of light.

To elaborate on the above post. . . .
Erm. I think you've got that backwards. Light is a form of radiation. Its kind of the whole quadrilateral/square thing. In this case, Light is the square and Radiation is the quadrilateral.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-14, 04:25 AM
John Carter has a latent telepathic ability that would make him immune to being manipulated by the Voice.



No, it wouldn't. The Voice is not a telepathic power.




If Paul Atreides were so dishonorable as to use a Shield, John Carter would just pull out a radium pistol and deal with him that way. Since the pistol uses explosive radioactive rounds, even if they got caught in the shield they would simply explode and roast Muad'dib inside his own coward's cloak.



Only if the radiation and gases and particles from the explosion moved really slowly. That's how the shield works.




As for prescience and destiny, recall that John Carter is likely immortal, and may well be an incarnation of Mars itself/himself. Some side effect of a breeding experiment has no chance against that, drug enhanced powers or not.



That point is especially ridiculous. Can you imagine how insignificant is a single planet (if this planet isn't called Dune) in a galactic empire? And that's Paul's scale. He changed the destiny of all the human race, on every planet.
Besides, Carter is not immortal. If you hurt him, he will bleed.





Most importantly, John Carter would never marry a woman against her will and for purely political ends, and would in fact go out of his way to subvert such a plan as no true gentleman would ever take advantage of a woman like that, family loyalties and political neccessity notwithstanding.

... and what does this have to do with combat? I'm intrigued.

Tiktakkat
2012-03-14, 01:14 PM
Well, someone feels rather strongly about this, no? Even assuming that

Carter's telepathic link makes him less subject to the Voice.
Carter would detect the cloak and resort to firearms before Paul gutted him.
The explosion of the 'radium pistol' would interact with the cloak as you described, despite the velocity of the explosion likely being above the field threshold.
Your conjecture of Carter's theoretical godly links shake off the prescience of the father of a God-Emperor.
Paul's character (as in personality) has anything to do with his ability as a combatant.


If we get to "well I've got a dinosaur that eats force-field dogs", I think Paul wins out with "I've got a sandworm half a league in length". Even ignoring the power he can muster at his peak as Emperor and trying to nullify all other advantages, he still has the edge in that regard.

Telepathy and strength of will. Carter has both.
Paul shows no signs of being a particularly good personal fighter while Carter is a master of multiple weapons. Further, shields are clearly visible from beyond arm range.
Unless the shield is blocking all particles it will not stop the radiation.
Invoking Paul's son or status means having to accept Carter's plot immunity qualities as well.
Paul's character plays directly into that plot immunity, as no one who treats women that dishonorably could possibly be anything but a villain, and so doomed to lose no matter their other presumed advantages.

However invoking a sandworm as well as political status obviously means taking it beyond a personal combat level. Naturally "Can a galactic empire defeat a single nation on a balkanized planet with all of its allies?" is always going to answer in favor of the galactic empire.
However since the question was about personal combat and not political rank, we must restrict ourselves to just the personal abilities of the individuals involved. So:

Voice/other Bene Gesserit tricks vs. Telepathy and unyielding will
Shield vs. Radium guns with 200 mile effective range
Crysknife winner of two duels? vs. Greatest swordsman on two worlds
Ability to channel ancestors vs. immortality
Father of pseudo-divinity vs. possible avatar

Not looking good for Dune fans.

The Glyphstone
2012-03-14, 01:30 PM
Gun combat: A radium pistol could have a range of 200 million miles and it wouldn't matter, because Carter couldn't see his target easily enough to hit outside close visual range. Someone pro-Dune know if guns can be fired from inside a shield outward?

Melee range: You're kinda leaving out the 'trained to fight from the age he could hold a weapon' for Paul, and the fact that Carter's only a master swordsman because he has super strength. I'm sure I would be the best swordsman on the planet too if I only fought people with 1/3 my strength and speed.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-03-14, 01:34 PM
Telepathy and strength of will. Carter has both.
Paul shows no signs of being a particularly good personal fighter while Carter is a master of multiple weapons. Further, shields are clearly visible from beyond arm range.
Unless the shield is blocking all particles it will not stop the radiation.
Invoking Paul's son or status means having to accept Carter's plot immunity qualities as well.
Paul's character plays directly into that plot immunity, as no one who treats women that dishonorably could possibly be anything but a villain, and so doomed to lose no matter their other presumed advantages.

However invoking a sandworm as well as political status obviously means taking it beyond a personal combat level. Naturally "Can a galactic empire defeat a single nation on a balkanized planet with all of its allies?" is always going to answer in favor of the galactic empire.
However since the question was about personal combat and not political rank, we must restrict ourselves to just the personal abilities of the individuals involved. So:

Voice/other Bene Gesserit tricks vs. Telepathy and unyielding will
Shield vs. Radium guns with 200 mile effective range
Crysknife winner of two duels? vs. Greatest swordsman on two worlds
Ability to channel ancestors vs. immortality
Father of pseudo-divinity vs. possible avatar

Not looking good for Dune fans.

Shields are visible, but does that mean he KNOWS how to get around one? In addition, if it goes faster than a medium-speed sword-thrust, the shield stops it. Radiation particles go fast enough. They're stopped.

Nobody is arguing PLOT immunity. We're arguing powers. And one of Muad'dib's powers is prescience to varying degrees. The ability to see where you will strike in 2 seconds. His prescience is also extremely long-term: that's where the Golden Path comes in. The ability to see the long-term effects of anything is one of his powers. And given he has the Golden Path, he can SEE if fighting Carter will throw him off the Golden Path, and he can then see what he needs to do to stop that from happening.

And the fact that you see Paul as a villain has nothing to do with this. It's completely irrevelant, unless Carter has some power that makes him immediately kill anyone Tiktakkat identifies as a "villain", or unless he has the power to kill anyone who marries for political reasons. We're not talking about the two in a story. We're talking about the two in a cage-match, effectively.




Your argument is that Carter is too strong of will to be swayed by the Voice. Perhaps. Let's give him that. Shield vs Radium Gun? It shoots a bullet, that bullet gets deflected. The radiation that goes faster than 6-9 meters per second? Also deflected.

Carter's skill in his own martial traditions is irrelevant if he can't figure out how to bypass the shield before Paul kills him. And even then, can he modify his style of fighting so that he can fight just as effectively slow as does fast? We know Paul can, we've seen him transition from fighting slow to fighting fast.

Those are the applicable combat skills. I can't see this going well for John Carter.

comicshorse
2012-03-14, 01:34 PM
Unless the shield is blocking all particles it will not stop the radiation.
Invoking Paul's son or status means having to accept Carter's plot immunity qualities as well.
.

I'm not certain how the pistols work in the Mars series but assuming normal pistol ranges and the shield stops the explosive leaving only radiation how is Carter not irraditating himself at the same time ?

Eldan
2012-03-14, 01:36 PM
To elaborate on the above post. . . .
Erm. I think you've got that backwards. Light is a form of radiation. Its kind of the whole quadrilateral/square thing. In this case, Light is the square and Radiation is the quadrilateral.

Also, one bullet's worth of Radium? Yeah, no. I'd doubt Paul would get a sunburn, unless this is some kind of magical super-Radium. Which might well be, given that it is apparently a useful weapon in the books and the radiation matters.

shadow_archmagi
2012-03-14, 01:40 PM
Unless the shield is blocking all particles it will not stop the radiation.

Yeah, but Radium exposure is really a long-term problem. I mean, the famous Radium Girls were ordinary teens who spent all day rolling around in piles of the stuff and it was three years before they actually fell ill.

Not to mention that "Re-write your own internal bodily chemistry to counteract the effects of radiation" isn't really beyond the scope of the Bene Gesserit- wasn't the whole big deal about the Waters of Life all about using internal chemistry to convert poison to drugs? I'd say that Paul can probably shrug off cancer.

Also, Paul is a master swordsman- He's been trained all his life by multiple experts. The only reason he has trouble in his knife fight against the Fremen whose name I've forgotten is that he's used to knife-fighting against shields, so he's in the habit of slowing his attack at the last minute. Spectators recognized his clear superiority and thought he was toying with the kid.

Also I don't have my copy on hand but I remember Paul uses some nukes towards the end of the book- does anyone remember if there's a reference to how that affects shields?

Zaydos
2012-03-14, 01:40 PM
Are we talking book series John Carter? Who was a master swordsman even on Earth who never ages and couldn't remember his own past anything more than vaguely and who
died twice in the first book and all that happened to him was interplanetary teleportation

Or are we talking about movie John Carter who I know nothing about?

Also Carter used a rifle in the books at least which was noted as having better range than any he'd ever seen on Earth.

In the books the Radium just caused an explosion (this was before the 1920s so out-dated science), though explosions could damage, and kill, people with shields (you could still be knocked around by them) though it did provide useful defense.

I will say my money would be on Paul, because while Voice wouldn't be useful, John would fight him sword to sword and Paul's prescience made him go from "expert swordsman" to something far higher.

H Birchgrove
2012-03-14, 01:50 PM
I think John Carter will win because I like John Carter much better. :smalltongue:

Selrahc
2012-03-14, 01:58 PM
Paul shows no signs of being a particularly good personal fighter while Carter is a master of multiple weapons.

Go read the book and say that.

If you have ignored the fights with Jamis, elite Fremen Warrior and Feyd Rautha genetic twin and arena champion, then reevaluate.

Remember also, a dozen years fighting a resistance movement in the desert amongst the fremen, all the training that house Atreides could provide and knowledge of both Mentat and Bene Gesserit techniques.

Paul is one of the more scarily skilled characters in fiction. He has fight scenes that back this up, although never one where he brings to bear all of his various techniques. In both the Jamis and the Feyd Rautha fights he in fact reigns himself in to keep things, in some sense, fair.

Zaydos
2012-03-14, 02:03 PM
Oh yes on nukes versus shields it was "shields what shields?"

Shields worked by distributing kinetic force of fast moving object across the entire shield not going to do anything against nukes and personal shields were no good against artillery. The shields pretty much just stopped bullets and made for interesting sword fights.

But yeah while John Carter was a master swordsman and could master any weapon in moments, Paul is an expert swordsman who happens to be prescient so my money would be on Paul.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-14, 02:05 PM
Plot immunity? Seriously?
:roy:

Ursus the Grim
2012-03-14, 02:12 PM
Telepathy and strength of will. Carter has both.
Paul shows no signs of being a particularly good personal fighter while Carter is a master of multiple weapons.
*snort*


Further, shields are clearly visible from beyond arm range.

And Carter knows what it is how?


Unless the shield is blocking all particles it will not stop the radiation.
Considering the only reason anything gets through a shield is because the wearer has to breathe, yes, yes I think it can stop radiation. What's the wavelength of the radiation in question? I'm not physicist, so it would take me a bit to work out exactly how 'fast' its going. Even given that, Radiation from that amount of radium won't kill a man dead in the time it will take Paul to kill Carter.


Invoking Paul's son or status means having to accept Carter's plot immunity qualities as well.
Paul's character plays directly into that plot immunity, as no one who treats women that dishonorably could possibly be anything but a villain, and so doomed to lose no matter their other presumed advantages.

Pretty sure plot armor is routinely discredited in vs threads unless its literally present in the story. Paul's Golden Path and prescience are literal representations of plot armor, as opposed to a theoretical link to a planet far less important than Arrakis.

Never mind that this posit is based on solely your own judgement, even though the books present Paul as a protagonist and basically a saint during the later ones. If you're lucky you might be able to convince people he's an antihero.


However invoking a sandworm as well as political status obviously means taking it beyond a personal combat level. Naturally "Can a galactic empire defeat a single nation on a balkanized planet with all of its allies?" is always going to answer in favor of the galactic empire.
However since the question was about personal combat and not political rank, we must restrict ourselves to just the personal abilities of the individuals involved.

Well, if you're giving Carter a radium pistol that shoots explosions (a result of the setting), why can't Paul have a sandworm, a naturally occurring animal that Paul can harness with his foot and two metal hooks.

The rest of your response is irrelevant because of the responses already given.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-03-14, 02:32 PM
Well, if the radium pistol is part of John Carter's regular armoury, then sure. If it's the theoretical height of what he can bring to a combat, in that he holds one once in the story, then it shouldn't count. The shield and crys-knife are regular old weapons for Paul. Carter should likewise get his regular old weapons.

Zaydos
2012-03-14, 02:35 PM
Carter often brings his pistol or rifle, but usually loses it early in the book or refuses to use it because it's unsporting to shoot at a man who has no gun. It would be a serious breach of character for him to shoot Paul.

1dominator
2012-03-14, 02:38 PM
*snort*
Considering the only reason anything gets through a shield is because the wearer has to breathe, yes, yes I think it can stop radiation. What's the wavelength of the radiation in question? I'm not physicist, so it would take me a bit to work out exactly how 'fast' its going. Even given that, Radiation from that amount of radium won't kill a man dead in the time it will take Paul to kill Carter.

Well, if you're giving Carter a radium pistol that shoots explosions (a result of the setting), why can't Paul have a sandworm, a naturally occurring animal that Paul can harness with his foot and two metal hooks.

The rest of your response is irrelevant because of the responses already given.

Dont shields create cataclysmal explosion when brought in contact with strong enough radiation? Also a fight on a sandworm's back would be the most epic thing ever!




Not to mention that "Re-write your own internal bodily chemistry to counteract the effects of radiation" isn't really beyond the scope of the Bene Gesserit- wasn't the whole big deal about the Waters of Life all about using internal chemistry to convert poison to drugs? I'd say that Paul can probably shrug off cancer.



Radiation is very different from poison though. Being able to manipulate aspects of your internal chemistry doesn't necessarily let you rewrite DNA, and that is what radiation damages.


Still, the desert mouse got this imo.


Also as an interesting side point, if shields block fast moving radiation how are the people inside able to see out? Since no light would get in due to it moving a hella faster then 6-9m/s.

Eldan
2012-03-14, 03:07 PM
Also as an interesting side point, if shields block fast moving radiation how are the people inside able to see out? Since no light would get in due to it moving a hella faster then 6-9m/s.

Good point, actually. Is there any evidence in the books that shields block radiation at all, and not just matter? There seems to be a vague shimmer, from what I remember, but you can see through them.

But still. The radiation from a bullet won't kill you. Certainly not within the time of a fight.

Zaydos
2012-03-14, 03:12 PM
1) Radium bullets in books had no radiation they caused explosions.
2) Shields only block matter; there are times people with shields got knocked flying by explosions.
3) John Carter wouldn't be shooting him anyway and Paul's prescience would warn him if John was.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-14, 03:40 PM
@Tiktakkat: So apparently I needed to save Dashie for you then? Seriously you have the beginings of decent points... deeply buried beneath rather evident rage and fanwank. If ya calm down maybe we can get something. Let's break it down

1) So John Carter displays telepathic abilities. Fascinating. Tell Us More. Because that's more of an an entire spectrum of abilities so just saying telepathic and strong willed doesn't mean much. Because the Voice is not a psychic ability but rather Diplomancy, so that doesn't nessecarily apply. I can see someone with it have a basis for shrugging it off. Then again it only has to work once. Putting up say a psychic shield because you have a superpower to do so for example is not good enough, but if telepathy came from some inner higher state of consciousness then you start to have a place to go from.

2) Paul isn't a good fighter? Nonsense, everything points to him being the best. First off the Atreides had some of the best fighting men in the galaxy, so much so it was the sole reason the Emperor went after them. Second Paul was trained in Bene Gesserit ways, in one of the later books a rather ordinary Reverend Mother is able to thump an superhumanly fast opponent on pure skill. To start with Paul is almost less concerned with winning a fight then how to win and not have the Fremen go "He's a witch BURN HIM" when he needs their help. Third when put together he was able to turn the already badass Fremen into a literally unstoppable army of death, by teaching them how he fought.

Fourth after he becomes the Kwizatch Haderach he literally gains countless lifetimes of experience. Spanning all of human history which given the series views on nature versus nurture we can fairly say manymanymany of those lifetimes were spent being Great Men. Yeah that whole complete memory of my entire genetic line and all you know... Paul is more experienced in every field then anyone but his son and daughter who also get the bonus of consulting him.

All this aside from prescience. Which Fifth isn't just plot armor. Paul still has choices he just has to live with the unimaginable (for us) comprehension of the full consequences of his choices and in point of fact actually chooses not to fulfill his ostensible destiny out of a sense of self and humanity he doesn't wish to loose.

3) As I've not uncovered anything more then the as stated radium pistol firing exploding rounds yeah I'm going with nothing more then normal radiation. And lets be perfectly clear: Radiation is not and never will be a Death Ray.

Yeah you are clearly criminally uneducated on the effects of radiation. First off you need fairly high amounts of radiation to cause harm in anything like the short term. A mass of pure radium even the size of a large caliber bullet means... some increased cancer risk. Marie Curie lived for decades before it killed her, and she at least once carried a bit of radium around next to her skin for half a day to see if it caused a sore. It did, a few days later. At one point you could buy a lot of quack radium "medical" devices like radium supplements or a water radiator. And let's be clear its not like these effects are guaranteed or anything like immediate, there's the poor guy that survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki (yes AND statement there) who lived to the ripe old age of 93.

Even immediate radiation sickness is not instantly or absolutely fatal. You'd need a hell of a lot more radium then could be packed into a bullet though and some outright magical shielding to avoid killing yourself then somehow have it designed to reliably disappear too.

And the best part of since out of Alpha, Beta, and Gamma radiation only Gamma is energy. The others are highly energetic particles. Paul's shield is already better then a full bio hazard suit. And while Gamma rays are the hardest to shield against, they also broadly speaking carry a much smaller risk because they overwhelmingly go right through you and represent only a small portion of radiation emitted in decay.

And of course Paul's physiological control only raises the threshold higher. Radiation as an actual "threat" is already the most overblown hyperbole-ridden "threat" in fiction and reality, here its even less of a concern

hamishspence
2012-03-14, 04:50 PM
2) Paul isn't a good fighter? Nonsense, everything points to him being the best. First off the Atreides had some of the best fighting men in the galaxy, so much so it was the sole reason the Emperor went after them.

There's a hint in Dune Messiah that Paul was one of the finest sword fighters in the galaxy even when he was being trained by Gurney Halleck.

Alia's fighting against a training dummy- a potentially deadly one. The number of lights on it determines how dangerous it is. The finest fighters in the Imperium never go against more than seven lights- and Alia's reached eleven by the time Paul intervenes and deactivates it- chiding her for being so reckless.

Alia: "I suppose you never went against more than seven?"
Paul: "Just once. Gurney Halleck caught me on ten. My punishment was sufficiently embarrassing that I won't tell you what he did."

shadow_archmagi
2012-03-14, 04:50 PM
@Nukes vs Shields Nukes Win:

Wait, I found the page. It says that they only used the nuke on a natural rock formation and it was a "static-charged sandstorm" that disabled enemy shields.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-14, 04:59 PM
Alia's fighting against a training dummy- a potentially deadly one. The number of lights on it determines how dangerous it is. The finest fighters in the Imperium never go against more than seven lights- and Alia's reached eleven by the time Paul intervenes and deactivates it- chiding her for being so reckless.


And he doesn't just deactivate the dummy, he throws a knife at the button that turns it off. While the dummy is moving. Really fast, since it's already level eleven.
That was a cool scene, yeah.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-14, 05:33 PM
There's a hint in Dune Messiah that Paul was one of the finest sword fighters in the galaxy even when he was being trained by Gurney Halleck.

Alia's fighting against a training dummy- a potentially deadly one. The number of lights on it determines how dangerous it is. The finest fighters in the Imperium never go against more than seven lights- and Alia's reached eleven by the time Paul intervenes and deactivates it- chiding her for being so reckless.

Alia: "I suppose you never went against more than seven?"
Paul: "Just once. Gurney Halleck caught me on ten. My punishment was sufficiently embarrassing that I won't tell you what he did."

Yes further evidence that Paul was ridiculously skilled. Though by implication Gurney Halleck could also go at least that high... but then not everybody can be Gurney Halleck. He's just not an idiot and knows that training should be done safely.

And the limitations on the sort of AI it would be allowed to have suggest a sort of dimishing return anyways. Its not particularly skilled it just eventually gets so fast you literally can't do anything about it. But I digress here.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-14, 06:14 PM
...you know, I confess I've never read Dune but had planned on it...but the more I hear about how ridiculously overpowered the main character seems to be (which is a big deal-breaker for me) the more and more my interest in it wanes rapidly. >.>

Try to think about the situations he finds himself in. He's not fighting against normal men, or John Carter, or a lich that had killed his father's mentor, or an evil emperor - he's fighting against destiny. And it's a losing battle.

Axolotl
2012-03-14, 06:17 PM
...you know, I confess I've never read Dune but had planned on it...but the more I hear about how ridiculously overpowered the main character seems to be (which is a big deal-breaker for me) the more and more my interest in it wanes rapidly. >.>
Why is the main character's power a deal-breaker?

Also read Dune, it's one of those books everyone shold read.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-14, 06:22 PM
...you know, I confess I've never read Dune but had planned on it...but the more I hear about how ridiculously overpowered the main character seems to be (which is a big deal-breaker for me) the more and more my interest in it wanes rapidly. >.>

This is always a wretched and horrible thing to do to yourself.

Its self-poisoning literally everything you treat this way because you will only operate from your own preconceptions and thus stand a much higher chance of only confirming your own preconceptions. Doesn't matter the case in particular.

(That said I would say that Paul's personal combat ability is of fairly minimal importance to the book series. The universe runs on politics not valiant heroes cutting down armies single handed)

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-14, 06:23 PM
Why is the main character's power a deal-breaker?

Also read Dune, it's one of those books everyone shold read.

Totally. As to the main character's power... Stephen King once said that good stories are either about heroes who have no power and struggle to build it, or those who have the power and lose it. Someone who's already tough and keeps getting tougher isn't interesting.
Or - as I might add - the hero finds out that power isn't everything. Dune shows this really well.

Axolotl
2012-03-14, 06:41 PM
Totally. As to the main character's power... Stephen King once said that good stories are either about heroes who have no power and struggle to build it, or those who have the power and lose it. Someone who's already tough and keeps getting tougher isn't interesting.
Or - as I might add - the hero finds out that power isn't everything. Dune shows this really well.But there's plenty of great stories where the main character is obscenely powerful and stays that way. Sandman for example, aside from in Volume 1, Morpheus has nearly unlimited power throughout.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-14, 06:48 PM
But there's plenty of great stories where the main character is obscenely powerful and stays that way. Sandman for example, aside from in Volume 1, Morpheus has nearly unlimited power throughout.

Aside from Volume 1, yeah. It begins with him being captured, stipped of all power, and then slowly regaining it - and then he faces sutiation after situation which can't be solved with brute force, which he obviously has. The Key from the gates of Hell, for example, or the whole story with the Vortex - powerful as Morpheus is, he needs to think his way through, rather than just use his powers.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-03-14, 06:49 PM
...you know, I confess I've never read Dune but had planned on it...but the more I hear about how ridiculously overpowered the main character seems to be (which is a big deal-breaker for me) the more and more my interest in it wanes rapidly. >.>

That's why I only liked the first book. The first book is when he's just a boy, the heir to one of the Great Houses. Then it goes awesome. The second book and onward don't interest me, because half of it is like "Look how awesome these few characters are".

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-14, 06:53 PM
That's why I only liked the first book. The first book is when he's just a boy, the heir to one of the Great Houses. Then it goes awesome. The second book and onward don't interest me, because half of it is like "Look how awesome these few characters are".

Well they are awesome!
And then trouble starts. Tragedy, too.

Comet
2012-03-14, 07:03 PM
Paul's amazing skills and superiority as a human being don't bother me, simply because the story is not about him overcoming obstacles and triumphing against all odds. The fact that Paul wins is kind of a given, he was designed to win at everything from the start. The real tension of the story is what he decides to do with that power and, most importantly, how he can live with himself after the fact.

This is mainly in the later books, mind. The first one is a pretty basic adventure story, with Paul as a more relatable underdog. But yeah, ultimately Paul is pretty much the most charismatic and capable person in the galaxy, amazing at everything he does and destined to be adored like a god. And he hates every second of it, as he rightly should.

edit: for the vs. itself, I'm going to vote for Carter as the winner. I have no idea how he would actually do it, but Space Tarzan beating up the man who filled the galaxy with war and lunacy just feels right in a funny sort of way.

Ursus the Grim
2012-03-14, 09:02 PM
I find books in which the main character trumps absolutely everybody in every respect to be deeply boring. I prefer a character with flaws and weaknesses, not a character who is a master swordsman, can effectively control anyone's mind, and nonchalantly defeats extremely difficult foes with ease.

Note that this is all the impression I'm getting about Paul Atreides from this thread and other places I've heard of him. I may be wrong, and I may eventually get around to reading Dune myself, but I'm just saying that this is what it sounds like and it doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy reading about. :v

You're entitled to that opinion, but Paul does find his share of adversity. Oftentimes, he creates that adversity himself, which is where it gets really interesting.

The Glyphstone
2012-03-14, 09:16 PM
I find books in which the main character trumps absolutely everybody in every respect to be deeply boring. I prefer a character with flaws and weaknesses, not a character who is a master swordsman, can effectively control anyone's mind, and nonchalantly defeats extremely difficult foes with ease.

Note that this is all the impression I'm getting about Paul Atreides from this thread and other places I've heard of him. I may be wrong, and I may eventually get around to reading Dune myself, but I'm just saying that this is what it sounds like and it doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy reading about. :v

Well, one of the big parts of Dune is how sure, Paul is an awesome blessed incredible badass, but he's also just one man. He can't fight an empire, or even an army, on his own no matter how many soldiers he stabs in the face. He needs an army of his own after all his resources are taken away, and the only way to get one is to earn the loyalty of people who couldn't care less about him and his interstellar power struggles. Dune was one of the stories assigned in a Science Fiction lecture course I took a few years ago, and the professor made a point of explaining how the story was really a cleverly disguised version of the Coming of Age/Hero's Journey arch-myth inside a badass sci-fi action story wrapper; it's a lot deeper than you would expect if you take the time to consider it.

Tiktakkat
2012-03-14, 11:02 PM
Are we talking book series John Carter? Who was a master swordsman even on Earth who never ages and couldn't remember his own past anything more than vaguely and who
died twice in the first book and all that happened to him was interplanetary teleportation

Or are we talking about movie John Carter who I know nothing about?

Obviously the movie version, who has to hide behind Dejah Thoris in a fight.
That one would be defeated by the Baron in hand to hand combat.


Go read the book and say that.

If you have ignored the fights with Jamis, elite Fremen Warrior and Feyd Rautha genetic twin and arena champion, then reevaluate.

Remember also, a dozen years fighting a resistance movement in the desert amongst the fremen, all the training that house Atreides could provide and knowledge of both Mentat and Bene Gesserit techniques.

Paul is one of the more scarily skilled characters in fiction. He has fight scenes that back this up, although never one where he brings to bear all of his various techniques. In both the Jamis and the Feyd Rautha fights he in fact reigns himself in to keep things, in some sense, fair.

Jamis, the grown man but otherwise unremarkable fighter, and Feyd Rautha, who he could not defeat straight up but needed to weird out by babbling incoherently in the middle of a fight?
Far from impressive.


Soras, you should save Dashie for yourself.
The Voice? Always works, every time, on everyone? I don't think so.

Experience of a thousand lifetimes versus the experience of . . . all existence, and actually having it done it rather than relying on memories? Uh huh.

A shield set to anticipate a weapon never encountered before, because of prescience does everything, right? But that's not too much hero worship on your part of course.

As I said, that kind of handwavium works both ways. You should not get so upset when it is turned back on you.

1dominator
2012-03-14, 11:03 PM
Paul's amazing skills and superiority as a human being don't bother me, simply because the story is not about him overcoming obstacles and triumphing against all odds. The fact that Paul wins is kind of a given, he was designed to win at everything from the start. The real tension of the story is what he decides to do with that power and, most importantly, how he can live with himself after the fact.


Is not that the greatest obstacle of all? The one that lies not without but within.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-14, 11:49 PM
Soras, you should save Dashie for yourself.
The Voice? Always works, every time, on everyone? I don't think so.

What you think doesn't actually matter its what the source supports. The Voice is one of any number of Bene Gesserit arts that have been developed from to push human ability to incredible limits. Its based in what all humanity shares cultivated carefully over thousands of year. When a charismatic leader sways a crowd its not mind control, putting up a defense to block mind control doesn't mean anything. And that's what the voice does, it may not be possible in our world but that doesn't change its fundamentally mundane nature.

So just saying "John Carter has telepathic abilities" does not mean anything whatever you think it does. I did note it could serve as a basis, and asked you to provide that basis. Why does the Voice not work on John Carter, with relevant examples please.


Experience of a thousand lifetimes versus the experience of . . . all existence, and actually having it done it rather than relying on memories? Uh huh.

So he has those, I thought John Carter could not remember his past very well. When and why does this change. Or was it inaccurate to begin with and he has thousands of years of memory floating around in his head?

Its like John Carter immortality that I haven't heard explained. That's interesting, but since he first got to Mars by being driven into a cave by some Apache it doesn't seem to do much good on the practical level. So what good does it do him. If all that happens is he travels between worlds, that's fascinating but not at all useful, sure he might not be technically dead forever but if someone is actually just unkillable then a defeat is still a defeat.


A shield set to anticipate a weapon never encountered before, because of prescience does everything, right? But that's not too much hero worship on your part of course.

No shields work like shields.

They don't have to be adjusted to a new weapon when the only apparent difference is the bullet in exsplosive. Those aren't remarkable weapons, they're normal. They are already the sort of things shields already work on. What though a radium shell miraculously goes through a shield for no particular reason? If there is a reason, the hell is it.

There are a few stated exceptions, objects slow enough, heavy heavy heavy amounts of force can overwhelm them, and lasguns which result in MAD as the best result. Why do John Carter's weapons fit into those category or how else do they get through the shield.


As I said, that kind of handwavium works both ways. You should not get so upset when it is turned back on you.

Upp here we go:

http://images.mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw2281-13268775959298.gif

Best joke I've heard since the previous page. Very funny and irrelevant thank you for lightening the mood

Zaydos
2012-03-15, 12:14 AM
Radium bullets in the books have nothing to do with radiation, it was 1912 when it was published no one really knew how radium worked, and is actually specifically not radium. John Carter just calls it that in narration because it's not a substance that exists on earth and was vaguely similar to radium. It causes an explosion like a bomb, so maybe something akin to a mini-nuke. Bombs are shown to be able to damage people with shields because the shield does nothing to the shockwave or heat. In short the radium bullets might could get through the shield by being a powerful wave of force, we don't know if they are strong enough, though.

Also John Carter's telepathic abilities mainly came up as a mental shield and hints of very limited danger sense. Also the voice in no way always works; just look at the Baron who resisted it. An alert opponent, a strong willed one, or just someone conditioned not to follow random people's orders can resist it. Carter is all three.

Then again Paul doesn't need the shield, if the radium bullets make it dangerous for him to wear the shield he wouldn't wear it, and he doesn't need the voice. You're pitting two about equally skilled swordsmen against each other (I'd say Carter is a little more skilled) and one is prescient.

Of course it does matter when in the books we go with. If it's the beginning of the book before Paul is spice overdosed John might win due to superior experience, self-control, physical strength (both are strong normally, but John is almost peak human and Paul is a young teen), and his limited combat prescience matching Paul's limited combat prescience.

Though Comet is probably right. Narrative awesome demands that John wins despite being a worse, older version of Paul.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-15, 12:25 AM
Also John Carter's telepathic abilities mainly came up as a mental shield and hints of very limited danger sense. Also the voice in no way always works; just look at the Baron who resisted it. An alert opponent, a strong willed one, or just someone conditioned not to follow random people's orders can resist it. Carter is all three.

Respectfully when was the Baron exposed to it, I can't recall myself.

Otherwise you have some reasonable points I don't think Paul needs the Voice, only because I think he is more skilled and can win in a straight fight anyways.

Zaydos
2012-03-15, 12:30 AM
Respectfully when was the Baron exposed to it, I can't recall myself.

Otherwise you have some reasonable points I don't think Paul needs the Voice, only because I think he is more skilled and can win in a straight fight anyways.

It's been a year since I last read the book, I thought Alia tried it on him. I know he at least boasted it didn't work on him and I know the doctor was supposed to be immune. Though
his immunity to being broken in other ways proved rather untrustworthy.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-15, 02:33 AM
Jamis, the grown man but otherwise unremarkable fighter, and Feyd Rautha, who he could not defeat straight up but needed to weird out by babbling incoherently in the middle of a fight?
Far from impressive.



Jamis was a skilled fighter, one of the Fremen, who were nearly as tough as the sardaukar, Emperor's elite warriors - even before Paul taught them the improved battle techniques. And Feyd had almost the same incredible training that Paul had, even learned some tricks from Thufir Hawat.
By "could not defeat straight up", you mean that Paul had to evade the poisoned needle on Feyd's hip? Oh yes. That's fair fight.
Your arguments are far from impressive.



The Voice? Always works, every time, on everyone? I don't think so.


John Carter's sword? Always works, every time, on everyone? I don't think so. But it usually has the job done. So does the Voice. Besides, it was already established that Paul doesn't need the Voice to defeat John. He's just a better fighter. Accept it.




Experience of a thousand lifetimes versus the experience of . . . all existence, and actually having it done it rather than relying on memories? Uh huh.



Ridiculous, once again. You mean, for Carter it wasn't memories? Ha.




A shield set to anticipate a weapon never encountered before, because of prescience does everything, right? But that's not too much hero worship on your part of course.



No, you seem to be doing all the hero worshiping. We're discussing fighting capabilities. And Paul is clearly more competent.

The Glyphstone
2012-03-15, 06:05 AM
I'm sorry, but I had to make this:
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p116/ArcherYiZe/cartermeme.jpg

Ursus the Grim
2012-03-15, 09:57 AM
I'm sorry, but I had to make this:
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p116/ArcherYiZe/cartermeme.jpg

Appropriate in more ways than one. Funny too, and I'm not just saying that because you're Glyph.

comicshorse
2012-03-15, 01:04 PM
Radium bullets in the books have nothing to do with radiation, it was 1912 when it was published no one really knew how radium worked, and is actually specifically not radium. John Carter just calls it that in narration because it's not a substance that exists on earth and was vaguely similar to radium. It causes an explosion like a bomb, so maybe something akin to a mini-nuke. Bombs are shown to be able to damage people with shields because the shield does nothing to the shockwave or heat. In short the radium bullets might could get through the shield by being a powerful wave of force, we don't know if they are strong enough, though.


I think the Shield would protect from a shockwave as well. I distinctly remember the Baron congratulating himself on his genius in using artillery in the attack on Dune. He thinks they're normally useless in the age of Shields but brough them because he figured the Atreides troops would take cover in caves and uses them to collapse the caves on them.


Also John Carter's telepathic abilities mainly came up as a mental shield and hints of very limited danger sense. Also the voice in no way always works; just look at the Baron who resisted it. An alert opponent, a strong willed one, or just someone conditioned not to follow random people's orders can resist it. Carter is all three.


I don't remember the Baron reisisting it I do remember him not ungagging Jessica in case she uses it on him though obviously he could just being cautious. More vital however is although people may be able to throw off the Voice in a fight all it has to do is distract them fro the vital second it takes to resist.

Tiktakkat
2012-03-15, 08:00 PM
What you think doesn't actually matter its what the source supports.

And so you refute all of your dismissals of Carter.

Thanks!

The Glyphstone
2012-03-15, 08:10 PM
So, I think it's pretty much unanimous that Paul will beat Carter in a straight-up close range duel, the only question is how easy the fight is. And unless he can disable Paul's shield somehow, any duel will be close range.

So, let's expand the parameters until we find a fight Carter has a good shot at winning. To start with, take away Paul's shield and give them both guns; who'd win in a sniper duel? Pistol+knife in a dense forest, who's the better tracker and sneak? Drop them both on Catachan, who gets annihilated by a Barking Toad first?:smallbiggrin:

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-15, 08:14 PM
Let's have them both woo a martian princess. And Paul is Muad'Dib, meaning he's a Fremen leader on Dune, not heir of a Great House/Emperor at the time. And he has Chani, and Leto II Senior.
Yeah. I think Carter is going to win this one easily.

comicshorse
2012-03-15, 08:14 PM
Well given that Paul will have practically no training with projectile weapons, I think the Fremen used them because Shields couldn't be used near worms so he might have learned a little from them and Carter would have been using them all his life I'd think any contest that involves pistols would go to Carter.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-15, 08:19 PM
I'm sure he had at least minimal training in using stunners and lasguns and stuff like that...

comicshorse
2012-03-15, 08:32 PM
I'm sure he had at least minimal training in using stunners and lasguns and stuff like that...

Minimal training wouldn't cut it I think.
Also lasers and stunners (which are energy weapons right ?) wouldn't fall like projectiles will and so would require a different skill. (though of course I am assuming here they are using projectile weapons of some sort)

shadow_archmagi
2012-03-15, 08:34 PM
I'm sure he had at least minimal training in using stunners and lasguns and stuff like that...

Also, his children are able to construct and use blowpipes with deadly accuracy based on their memories- I'm not sure that Paul has infinite ancestral memories though- I think he's just a wizard.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-15, 08:35 PM
Lasgun was an energy weapon, stunner used projectiles, I think. Though it seems logical that Paul was far more proficient with melee weapons, both against shielded and non-shielded opponents.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-16, 03:02 AM
Well one could argue that while Paul may live in a time where its melee rules, he still has all his ancestors to draw skills from. Like how Leto II and Ghani could talk to each other in dead languages for example. Having any of said ancestors being a better then average shot though is rather speculative though and since Paul doesn't fight with guns, yeah I'll give the hero of another story an edge there as far as being a better shot and so forth.

That said any duel with sniping isn't really about being a good shot and doesn't really make for a good match-up anyways. You pick a good position and wait for the enemy to come into your sights. Ranged fights have a lot more pure luck inherent in them. Going with his crysknife and a lasgun on a hunting mission, Paul's strengths would come from the reality of the War of Assassins in his world and having waged successful guerrilla warfare on one of the original Death Worlds. (This is discounting prescience)

John Carter is more personally experienced with guns but for craftiness does he ever have to fight the way Muad'dib does? That's the big question in my mind, pulp is known for being fairly direct but is this always the case.

Also while Paul operates largely without guns this isn't nessecarily a big disadvantage. Fremen rely on not being seen afterall which applies to say a look outs as easily as a sniper. The consequences of being seen are the same in both cases, just more immediate with a sniper. The bigger point though is still don't get caught to start.

Now to get to Glyphstone's original point about parameters where John Carter could beat Paul:

They start off in sight of one another with no available cover. Paul only has what a normal Fremen might for gear in the desert so he's only got a maula pistol and a crysknife for arms. John Carter has a sword and a radium pistol. The pistol is better since its still a true firearm, thus grants a very real chance of victory due to superior ability at range. Sure Paul might see it coming but it doesn't matter what he see's if he can't do anything about it.

(Now Miles Teg would be another matter)

Tenno Seremel
2012-03-19, 05:45 AM
AFAIR… Baron is also a part of Bene Gesserit's genetic program, so whether he can withstand Voice or not might be not quite relevant.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-19, 07:20 AM
He was part of the program, but he didn't have the training, nor the precognition powers.
Who cares anyways?

Selrahc
2012-03-19, 07:55 AM
I find books in which the main character trumps absolutely everybody in every respect to be deeply boring. I prefer a character with flaws and weaknesses, not a character who is a master swordsman, can effectively control anyone's mind, and nonchalantly defeats extremely difficult foes with ease.


Part one of Dune: Really well done world building and character building. Fated doom of the likeable father, and unravelling the mystery of how that comes about.

Part two of Dune: Exploring the concept of destiny and predestination through the eyes of somebody who can see the future. Set to a backdrop of armed rebellion against a hideous monster.

The first book in the Dune series is a sci-fi masterpiece. The later books continue with the theme of the second part of the book, and they're pretty good. The "unbeatable" protagonist is struggling against the bonds of destiny itself, which is a foe that presents a challenge. But the first book is by far the best. If you like sci-fi, you should definitely check it out.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2012-03-19, 07:30 PM
Part one of Dune: Really well done world building and character building. Fated doom of the likeable father, and unravelling the mystery of how that comes about.

Part two of Dune: Exploring the concept of destiny and predestination through the eyes of somebody who can see the future. Set to a backdrop of armed rebellion against a hideous monster.

The first book in the Dune series is a sci-fi masterpiece. The later books continue with the theme of the second part of the book, and they're pretty good. The "unbeatable" protagonist is struggling against the bonds of destiny itself, which is a foe that presents a challenge. But the first book is by far the best. If you like sci-fi, you should definitely check it out.

Selrahc says it best.

Tenno Seremel
2012-03-20, 02:07 AM
He was part of the program, but he didn't have the training, nor the precognition powers.
Who cares anyways?
Considering who he was to Paul? Well… :}

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-20, 02:28 AM
And how exactly is his relationship with Paul important in this topic?

Tenno Seremel
2012-03-20, 02:42 AM
And how exactly is his relationship with Paul important in this topic?
Relationship by blood is not important now? Ok.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-20, 09:38 AM
Um, no, it's not. Unless you somehow mean that Paul is related to John Carter.

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-20, 10:35 AM
Given that Paul himself was the first target of the Voice the Baron being his grandfather (lol, spoiler) isn't particularly relevant since its not some sort of inborn ability. Given that nobody seems to have actually checked whether Alia actually used the Voice on the Baron.

I don't remember it at all personally and so dispute that it happened. For one thing she wasn't captured by the Harkonnens but by Sardaukar. For another what did she try and do with the Voice. For a third weren't Alia's scenes all in Shaddam court with a whole crowd about, and with a Reverend Mother present, so trying the straight command Voice would be a waste of time anyways. Also since she had a Gom Jabbar and killed the Baron with it wasn't Alia waiting for Paul to attack anyways?

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-20, 10:41 AM
Yes, yes, and yes. Give the pony a No-Prize!

SaintRidley
2012-03-20, 11:50 AM
Yes, yes, and yes. Give the pony a No-Prize!

That's nice, but how's the pony going to find it?

Unless Soras is a pony descendant of the Atreides.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-20, 12:00 PM
I don't know how... it's magic!

Weezer
2012-03-20, 12:04 PM
That's nice, but how's the pony going to find it?

Unless Soras is a pony descendant of the Atreides.

Even then the No-prize wouldn't be able to be found, isn't that kind of the point? That it avoids even Atreides type prescience?

EDIT: After looking it up, I'm wrong, totally forgot about Miles Teg...

Soras Teva Gee
2012-03-20, 12:41 PM
Nah Teg was special, I always kinda got the feeling he used a sorta arse-backward method. See everywhere except where the no-ship is and there for know where it is. Like discerning a black hole via gravitational lensing.

That said no-ships, can you imagine if you use one of these and forget where you parked it. Talk about dude where's my car. And then like six millenia later some country bumpkin is going to find it.

Lord Tyger
2012-03-23, 12:27 PM
So for those who have read the later books- does it ever really explain what exactly John Carter is, apart from the vague hints in the first book that he's always been around and always fighting a war?