PDA

View Full Version : Combat Maneuver Feat Revisions (3.5/PF) (PEACH)



Nakun
2012-03-18, 10:24 AM
First, I want to encourage people to check out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12916433#post12916433) by Bakkan because it's gotten me to start thinking about what feats should be improved upon and how.

Now, I want to throw a few of my feat ideas at you all, but I'm going to start with the Combat Maneuvers because I think I have them worked out in a sensible way...I've changed which feats have which prereqs and I also use slightly different combat rules, so I apologize if I forget to switch something back to 3.5 kosher language.

Grappling:

Improved Unarmed Combat
Benefit: Your unarmed attack damage increases to 1d6 (for medium characters, 1d4 for small) and you no longer provoke attacks of opportunity for using unarmed attacks. For each unarmed attack you make, you may choose to have it deal lethal or non-lethal damage. You may, as a full round action, attempt to grapple any opponent hit by your unarmed attacks.
When attempting to initiate a grapple you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you also gain a +4 bonus on your combat maneuver check when you initiate grapples.
Normal: Unarmed attacks deal 1d4 damage (1d3 for small characters) and can only deal non-lethal damage.
Initiating a grapple provokes an attack of opportunity.

This feat replaces Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple.

Combat Throw
Prereqs: Improved Unarmed Combat
Benefit: Once you have grappled an opponent, you may, as a move action, make another opposed grapple check to attempt to throw them to the ground. If you succeed, your opponent is knocked prone in front of you and take damage equal to your unarmed attack damage.

Frog March
Prereqs: Improved Unarmed Combat
Benefit: When you attempt to move with an opponent you have grappled, you can make another opposed grapple check. By each 5 points you surpass your opponent's check, you can move an additional 5ft up to your maximum movement.
Normal: You can make an opposed grapple check to move with a grappled opponent up to 1/2 your movement.


Charging:

Improved Charge
Prereq: BAB +1
Benefit: When you make a charge, you may chose one of the following advantages:
* Ignore difficult terrain in your way.
* Make one turn of up to 90 degrees.
* Make a full attack at the end of your charge instead of a standard attack.

Improved Bull Rush
Prereq: Improved Charge
Benefit: When initiating a bull rush, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you gain a +4 bonus on the combat maneuver check to initiate the bull rush.
When you bull rush an opponent into a wall or other solid object, they take damage equal to 1d6 per 5ft they were pushed by you plus your strength modifier.
Normal: Initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity. When you bull rush an opponent into a wall or other solid object they take 1d6 + strength modifier damage.

Improved Overrun
Prereq: Improved Charge
Benefit: When initiating an overrun, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you gain a +4 bonus on the combat maneuver check to initiate the overrun.
Opponents in the way of your overrun can no longer make the choice to avoid your overrun.
Normal: Initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity. Opponents can elect to let you pass by them without making opposed checks to avoid being knocked prone.


Sundering:

Improved Sunder
Prereq: Power Attack
Benefit: When attempting to sunder an object, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you gain a +4 bonus on the attack roll to sunder an object.
You may ignore the first 5 points of hardness for any object you attempt to sunder.
Normal: Attempting to sunder an object provokes an attack of opportunity.


Others:

Improved Disarm
Prereq: Combat Expertise
Benefit: When attempting to disarm an opponent, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you gain a +4 bonus on the combat maneuver check to disarm.
You may attempt to disarm an opponent as a move action.
Normal: Attempting to disarm an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity. Attempting a disarm is a standard action.

Improved Feint
Prereq: Combat Expertise
Benefit: When attempting to feint, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you gain a +4 bonus to the combat maneuver check to feint.
You may attempt a feint as a move action.
Normal: Attempting to feint provokes an attack of opportunity. Attempting to feint is a standard action.

Improved Trip
Prereq: Combat Expertise
Benefit: Then attempting to trip an opponent, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Additionally, you gain a +4 bonus to the combat maneuver check to trip.
You may attempt to trip as a move action.
Normal: Attempting to trip an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity. Attempting to trip an opponent is a standard action.


All of these feats can be selected as fighter bonus feats.

I am considering lower the initial bonus to the combat maneuver checks but having them scale with the character's BAB or level.
That may change entirely and become a flat +2 bonus for most characters, but a +2 +fighter level bonus for fighters.

Apalala
2012-03-18, 02:17 PM
Improved Unarmed Combat

Why do you need to make a touch attack? The whole point of the CMB/CMD mechanic was to have less rolling involved. CMD already factors in how elusive a target is, after all.

Combat Throw

I don't know that it would be worth a feat to take this. The point of grappling someone is to, you know, hold on to them, not knock them prone with a bit of extra damage.

Frog March

The only way to really gain much benefit from this feat is to be grappling someone who is going to be pretty much helpless anyways.

Improved Charge

If a feat is so good that no class that uses melee full attacks wouldn't take it....

Improved Bull Rush

About the same as the old one, I've never really seen much bullrushing in games, and then, it's because of the environment--fire, lava, traps, etc--not because they want to slam them into a wall. With this feat, it'd be the same deal. Sure, you could try and deal 4d6+str by rushing them 20 feet...but if you only beat their check 14 instead of 15, you deal zero damage instead. And you'd probably be doing a ton more damage by simply charging.

Improved Overrun

About the same.


Improved Sunder

Makes sundering easier, I guess.

Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip

A move action? That's a pretty powerful option. Probably not too hax though,

Nakun
2012-03-18, 05:19 PM
Why do you need to make a touch attack? The whole point of the CMB/CMD mechanic was to have less rolling involved. CMD already factors in how elusive a target is, after all.

Correct, that was my mistake.

For Combat Throw and Frog March, I wanted to throw out a few options for grappled foes. Specifically with Combat Throw I was thinking that being able to get one opponent prone might help...



Improved Charge

If a feat is so good that no class that uses melee full attacks wouldn't take it....


Is it really so good? If I had to scale it down...maybe it would just allow you to go through difficult terrain. Then add the other features in as something like Greater Charge?


Sure, you could try and deal 4d6+str by rushing them 20 feet...but if you only beat their check 14 instead of 15, you deal zero damage instead. And you'd probably be doing a ton more damage by simply charging.

Hmm....I see what you're saying. It seems steep, but wouldn't it be the same as trying to hit someone with a full attack, but then missing all of your attack rolls? In both instances you've used a turn to attempt to dish out a lot of pain, but come short because of a die roll.

Apalala
2012-03-18, 10:18 PM
Hmm....I see what you're saying. It seems steep, but wouldn't it be the same as trying to hit someone with a full attack, but then missing all of your attack rolls? In both instances you've used a turn to attempt to dish out a lot of pain, but come short because of a die roll.

It really isn't the same. At the higher levels, a full BAB class is going to have a trivially easy time hitting most monster's AC with at least their first attack. Full attacking is always going to be an attractive option for melee classes. Always. On the other hand, monsters at level 10 are going to have a CMD of around 30, so in order to have a 50% chance of dealing 4d6+str, you first need to position the monster exactly 20 feet from a wall, then have a CMB of at least +34, including the bonus from the feat itself (you'll get 10 from BAB, 4 from the feat, but that's still 20 more that needs to come from strength, weapon, size bonuses, and whatever else you can scrounge up. Not even sure it's possible at level 10). And if you succeed, assuming 22 strength, that's an average of 20 damage. If you have a CMB of +34, 20 damage isn't that much at all, and it's not going to be enough to finish off a monster before it kills you. Sure, you could try and bullrush them a shorter distance, but then the damage becomes even more trivial.

In short, the extra damage you deal is completely pointless, and not enough that it would ever make bullrushing someone a more attractive option.

Look at the PF bullrushing feat by way of comparison. Making a monster provoke Attacks of Opportunity is still situational, but it's something you can set up and whose rewards can make it even more attractive than a full attack in some situations.

Nakun
2012-03-20, 09:55 PM
So, I've been thinking about the Bull Rush...I would like to see people run into walls. But, you're right that it's too situational for the feat to be worth it.

I looked at Pathfinder's Greater Bull Rush, but that doesn't seem to make sense to me; having a bunch of swords and spears knocked into someone while you're trying to push them seems like more of a hindrance than a help...

I was thinking about:
On a successful bull rush you may move up to your full movement speed.

Opinions?

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-20, 10:30 PM
I don't know if they changed this in Pathfinder (I certainly hope not) but feinting in 3.5 already doesn't provoke.


Feint

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your targetís Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, itís impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Emphasis mine. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint).

Nakun
2012-03-21, 03:03 AM
You are correct. Thanks for catching that.