Looking to get into D&D, looking for advice. [Archive]

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Ehra

2012-03-21, 08:17 PM

I'm tired of sitting around and thinking about how rad it would be to get my D&D on, but not being able to because I don't know of any groups in my area, or anyone that'd DM. But them I realized that I could be the DM. But it'd help if I had some books and supplies. And knew how to play. So I looked at the official site and this stuff's expensive. Like $35 for the DM's manual? Plus someone (probably me, if I'm going to be putting together a group of people that may have never played themselves) needs to grab the player's handbook which is another $35. Then I'd guess you'd also need the monster manual for ANOTHER $35; I don't think the dungeons would be too great without the dragons. Plus I guess there's multiple versions of all of these books? I'm not spending that much (looks like $100 at the minimum just to get started) at once on something that I may not even be able to get going.

I saw there's the D&D Insider thing which gets you a ton of stuff for a $10 a month subscription, but am I right in saying that it just pretty much just gives me access to all of the printed classes and abilities and stuff and I still need to buy the actual rules?

I was looking at the D&D Essentials red box was seems like a pretty good deal. About $20 for what looks like the bare essentials (ololo) needed to get a game going; rules, 4 basic classes, some monster, an adventure or two, tiles, minis, dice and so on. But I've read that the Essentials series has different (stripped down) rules compared to "normal" 4th edition, how different is it? If I were to grab the red box and a D&D Insider subscription, would some/many of the stuff I find online be incompatible with the essentials rules? Or are they close enough that it wouldn't be a problem?

What do you guys recommend for someone looking to start out on a budget?

Kurald Galain

2012-03-21, 08:29 PM

The PHB1 + MM1 will give you all the rules you need to play the game; the DMG offers a bunch of advice, but isn't actually required. I would not recommend it to anyone who has experience DM'ing before. No, there aren't multiple versions of any of these books, although there are sequels, such as the PHB2 and DMG2 (neither of which you need to start out).

Using DDI has the advantage that you'll get all powers and classes and such, but the disadvantage that all your information disappears as soon as you stop paying. In effect, it is more expensive than just buying a few books.

4.4 (HOFL / HOFK) is a pretty bad deal for your money, because they each contain only four stripped-down classes, whereas the PHB1 offers eight fully fledged classes, and many more powers, items and paragon paths to boot. Also, you'll still need the Monster Vault and Rules Compendium to play the game; and possibly the DM Kit. It ends up being more expensive.

Avoid the Red Box at all costs. There's nothing in there you need, and it's not fully compatible with either 4.0 or 4.4.

If you're on a budget, play 3.5 or Pathfinder - they're both free; problem solved. If you want 4E and are on a budget, the cheapest solution is to just buy the PHB1 and get monsters from the (freely downloadable) RPGA adventures.

Starscream

2012-03-21, 08:33 PM

Essentials is indeed a stripped down version of the rules. That makes it great for beginners, but at the same time if you decide to "graduate" to full fledged D&D you will need to go shopping all over again.

As for actual D&D books, you can't really get by with just the DM's Manual. Most of the actual "rules" will be found in the Player's Handbook, and all the monsters are in the Monster manual. The DM's is more about designing a campaign, and probably contains the least amount of "crunch" of the core books.

As for your alternatives, have you checked your local library? They sometimes have a few sourcebooks, enough to let you familiarize yourself with the system enough to know whether or not you want to buy the books, and if so which ones.

Amazon is a good place to look for books. Glancing over there right now, you could get a Player's Handbook for $17.75 new, or $15.33 used, about half what the cover price is.

And if you aren't totally committed to 4th Edition, there are free(-ish) alternatives. Edition 3.5 has a site here (http://www.d20srd.org/) that has basically all the core stuff for free. It doesn't really explain how to use these rules, but there are other sites that could give you a crash course. Pathfinder, an updated version of 3.5 (which is still supported and making new books) also has such a site here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). This is because both of those games are based on an open license. 3rd edition books can also usually be bought cheaply now, and 3.5 and Pathfinder are compatible with each other.

Alienist

2012-03-21, 08:48 PM

What about monster tokens? What is the best source for them?

Bearpunch

2012-03-21, 08:51 PM

4th edition is a great place to start in rpgs. Its easy for everyone to learn and play. The downside is its low on the actual role playing and feels a little gamey, but that is where I started, so I'm sure youll find it fun, too.

Heres what I would buy if I could go back and rebuy everything:

Players Handbook one for 15 on Amazon
Dungeon Masters book or kit (book for around 15, kit (with tokens and other goodies like a DM Screen) for 22 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0786956305/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1332380664&sr=8-1&condition=new))
The Monster Vault, which contains a lot of basic monsters, but not specialtys and lots and lots fo tokens for 20 bucks (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0786956313/ref=sr_1_2_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1332380664&sr=8-2&condition=new).
And a chessex battle mat (wet erase markers only) for 15-ish (http://www.amazon.com/Chessex-Role-Playing-Play-Mat/dp/B0015IQO2O/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1332380860&sr=1-2)

Its a lot of cash, I'll agree, but D&D as well as other role-playing games are worth the investment, and some of th emost fun I have ever had by far.

If you're stripped for cash, Pathfinder and 3.5 are free, but it would really help to buy the Pathfinder Core Rules for around 40 bucks, which contains the DM guide and the Players Handbook in one (massive) volume. Monsters are all on the pathfinder SRD, or you could buy the Bestiarys (of which there are three, start with one)

Good luck with your purchases and have fun.

Kurald Galain

2012-03-21, 08:51 PM

What about monster tokens? What is the best source for them?

Either print out some clipart, or use lego. Nobody I know of uses the "official" monster tokens for anything.

Bearpunch

2012-03-21, 08:53 PM

Either print out some clipart, or use lego. Nobody I know of uses the "official" monster tokens for anything.

I do, because I bought the Monster Vault. But I wouldn't go buy the tokens. My buddy actually has bunch of old HeroScape (or whatever) pieces that we use on occasion. Anything will work.

Kurald Galain

2012-03-21, 09:02 PM

4th edition is a great place to start in rpgs. Its easy for everyone to learn and play.

Well, YMMV on that. I know several players who found it hard to learn, and a few of those have given up because they found it too complicated (and started playing another RPG instead).

I don't personally find it hard, but it is objectively one of the most rules-heavy RPGs on the market.

Bearpunch

2012-03-21, 09:20 PM

Well, YMMV on that. I know several players who found it hard to learn, and a few of those have given up because they found it too complicated (and started playing another RPG instead).

I don't personally find it hard, but it is objectively one of the most rules-heavy RPGs on the market.

Fair enough, but Pathfinder is more rules heavy I think (and Shadowrun still confuses me, but maybe I'm just simple).

Every player I've introduced to 4th got it pretty quick, but chargen takes a while, with all of the powers.

DrBurr

2012-03-21, 09:24 PM

I first would suggest using the quick start rules from the D&D site, though I've never used them myself I'd imagine they would at least teach you the basics and give you a clue on whether 4e is for you.

When you get to books their are only 2 that you actually need the Player's handbook and Monster Manual, the DMG for 4e is pretty much a tips book unlike previous editions where it was the rule book. Of the those two books the Monster Manual is outdated by errata now and fully replaced by the Monster Vault which comes with tokens (I think). Like others said the PH can be bought pretty cheap now new and usually useds are in good enough condition to be used if you want to shave a couple more bucks.

If you do decide to go the DDI route you shouldn't need a Monster Manual because there is an updated compendium with all the Monsters from MM 1, 2,3 and all the Dungeon/Dragon articles available through the membership

Other than that the only advice I can give is don't be afraid to ask your friends if they want to play, chances are if your interested in picking up D&D they will be too, they just don't know it yet.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-21, 09:25 PM

I think the hardest thing about 4e is remebering what all the differnent status conditions do. But that may be due to the fact I tend to take status-inflicting powers.

Ehra

2012-03-21, 09:41 PM

tcrudisi

2012-03-22, 01:50 AM

Guess I should have clarified, I am pretty set on getting into 4th edition specifically. I'm trying to get my girlfriend to get into D&D with me, and she likes the idea of "us" (me :p) putting together our own Guild Wars homebrew sometime. With how videogamey/MMO-ish 4th edition is, it seems like it'd be easiest to port over some of the classes/mechanics and the easiest to ease her into. I'm familiar enough with 3.5 (never looked at Pathfinder) and while I don't have a problem with it, I also don't think it'd be a good fit for her (and I honestly think I'd end up enjoying 4th more from the little I've seen of it).

Lots of great advice here. I thought the DM guide would have crucial information in that area, but hearing that it's just tips means I could probably skip it for now. Kinda disappointed that the red box isn't compatible with most of the other 4th edition stuff, but I guess it's understandable. It's a really good deal for someone looking to get started and be good to play with one purchase, it'd be nice if there were an equivalent for "normal" 4th. Oh well.

So it looks like I'll grab the PH1 and try out a month of D&D Insider to see what it's like. And good points on the amazon prices, I saw the prices on the official site and just figured online prices would be similar.

Thanks for the help :)

Greetings, Ehra.

First, I'm glad to hear that you want to get into 4e. It's a great, balanced system and if you want to do a MMO-theme with it, that's very easy to do. I come from an EQ/WoW background and don't see the comparisons myself, but I did once run a WoW session in 4e and I was able to make it really feel like WoW when I put forth the effort.

As others have mentioned, you can go to Amazon and get the books for much cheaper there. You don't need the Dungeon Masters Guide but it is helpful. (Then again, what book isn't helpful?) Especially if you are new to DMing, you might not want to skip out on it. But if you've done any DMing in 3.x, then feel free to skip it. There's not really any new information there.

Absolutely get the Players Handbook 1. For monsters, I would get the Monster Vault instead of the Monster Manual 1. The MV monsters make for a more dynamic and difficult combat.

Finally, there's a free Wizards of the Coast module available online. Keep on the Shadowfell. (Or something like that.) It's decent enough. It was their first printed module for 4e, so don't expect miracles ... but for a new group and DM just learning the game? It's perfectly fine. Then from there you can make up your own story. But it will get you through those first few sessions when everyone is confused - allowing you to help teach them the game and not worry about screwing up the game itself.

Anyway - good luck and I hope you enjoy your foray into 4e!

Tegu8788

2012-03-22, 07:14 AM

If you are worried about your players learning the rules, then give them a practice round. Depending how comfortable they are they can make their own sheet of use a pregenerated character, and then you can run a oneshot for rule learning purposes. It lets both sides screw up without effecting the story, and a chance to see the difference between text and actual play.

Musco

2012-03-22, 08:16 AM

The practice round idea is particularly neat. Simply get some free modules to run (they usually come with all the needed info in them, like monster stats, XP per encounter, treasures they find, etc.), and get a Player's Handbook 1.
Run the modules as sequences (so they can see a character advancing and becoming more powerful), and have the sheets pre-made if they are not familiar with tabletop RPGs (I'm sure the playground will be more than happy to help with a basic set-up if you tell us how many players you will have), so they can have all the roles covered and see them in action, in and out of combat, see different skills in use, etc.
If they like it, after a few modules, simply have everyone pony up to get the stuff you all need to start out (at this point, probably DM 1 and Monster Vault/MM 1, probably PH2 and maybe PH3 - you can get the basics to start out, and then add in material as you go), and start over, this time letting everyone build their characters from scratch, so you can start a campaign together.