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Chaos_Laicosin
2012-03-25, 12:16 AM
So me and my friend were chatting about the lack of diversity in ranged weapons and we decided to try to add in some new options (all of which are based on real weapons). I tried to find weather someone had already home brewed anything of these sorts, but I came up dry.

Roped weapons
Roped weapons are exactly what they sound like: Attacking at a range and being able to retrieve your weapon without moving. There is a maximum range increment of 2x base increment (too much rope would be unwieldy). They can also be used to trip/disarm, and apply they to the weapon finesse feat.

Rope Dagger/Dart:
++++++++
Range: 10
Damage: d4
Critical: 19-20/x2 (dagger) or x3 (dart)
Type: Pierce
One-handed roped & melee
Weight: 2 lb
Cost: 5 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat.

Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 15
Damage: d6
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Weight: 8 lb.
Cost: 12 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have a rounded or spiked head, chosen at creation/purchase. +2 to trip/disarm

Dire-Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 10
Damage: Double Weapon d6/d6
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Weight: 12 lb.
Cost: 20 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Based on meteor hammer/dire flail cross. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have rounded and/or spiked heads, chosen at creation/purchase. +2 to trip/disarm

New? Thrown Weapons

Atlatl:
++++++++
Range: 60
Damage: d10
Critical: x2
Type:Pierce
One-handed Thrown
Weight: 1 lb (ammo = 1lb/2 ammo)
Cost: 1 gp. (+1 gp/2 ammo)
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical weapon in use up to European conquest of Americas. Projectile is a dart/very light spear. Would require off-hand to set a new projectile. Str modifier added to damage.

Lumber Axe:
++++++++
Range: 20
Damage: d8
Critical: x3
Type: Slash
Two Handed thrown
Weight: 6 lb.
Cost: 10 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Throwing lumber axes is a competitive lumberjack sport in modern times. 1.5x Str modifier added to damage. Can be used in melee combat.

Hammer Throw:
++++++++
Range: 40
Damage: 2d8
Critical: x3
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Heavy Two handed thrown
Weight: 10 lb
Cost: 8 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Based on the modern (and historical) hammer throwing competition. 1.5x Str modifier added to damage. Can have a rounded or spiked head, chosen at creation/purchase.

The Mentalist
2012-03-25, 03:10 AM
So me and my friend were chatting about the lack of diversity in ranged weapons and we decided to try to add in some new options (all of which are based on real weapons). I tried to find weather someone had already home brewed anything of these sorts, but I came up dry.

I'm with you here. We could do with a few more ranged toys.



Roped weapons
Roped weapons are exactly what they sound like: Attacking at a range and being able to retrieve your weapon without moving. The one-handed roped (dagger) would be a free action to retrieve, while the two-handed (meteor hammer/dire meteor hammer) would be a move action to retrieve unless the rapid reload feat is acquired. There is a maximum range increment of 2x base increment (too much rope would be unwieldy).


Why the move action to retrieve? that is the most unpleasant mechanic available in ranged weapons and just adds a feat tax to these already sup-optimal weapons (we will get to that in turn) allow them to be used to full attack without an extra feat or make them MUCH better. The range increment thing reminds me of an extra-long whip, not too bad. May even make it x3 distance but it's your toys.



Rope Dagger:
++++++++
Range: 10
Damage: d4
Critical: 19-20/x2
Type: Pierce
One-handed roped & melee
Weight: 2 lb
Cost: 5 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat.


Drop the EWP (you're going to hear me say this a lot)... This weapon is NOT worth it. At all. A dagger (plain old simple dagger) is better, better maximum range, same damage, same crit rate. It does not justify the feat, I know that this is a complex weapon to use but that justifies Martial weapon, something that requires training, it either needs to be brought WAY up or it needs to be martial or it will not get used.



Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 15
Damage: d6
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Weight: 8 lb.
Cost: 12 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have a rounded or spiked head, chosen at creation/purchase.

A little better than the previous one, in that it isn't just a simple weapon. It's got the damage of a club and better range than throwing one. again taking it to a martial weapon. (All of these "make them martial" things go out the window if you can use it to threaten (if you threaten at this distance, it's kind of broken) or make special attack actions at one range increment.)



Dire-Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 10
Damage: Double Weapon d6/d6
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Weight: 12 lb.
Cost: 20 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Based on meteor hammer/dire flail cross. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have rounded and/or spiked heads, chosen at creation/purchase.


Same as previous.



Atlatl:
++++++++
Range: 40
Damage: d10
Critical: x2
Type:Pierce
One-handed Thrown
Weight: 1 lb (ammo = 1lb/2 ammo)
Cost: 1 gp. (+1 gp/2 ammo)
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical weapon in use up to European conquest of Americas. Projectile is a dart/very light spear. Would require off-hand to set a new projectile. Str modifier added to damage.


This is better, still not worth an exotic but better. This is no better than a short/long bow, it does slightly better damage but it's AWFUL for range (which I get for the flavor of the weapon, maybe up it to 60' so it at least keeps pace with the sling) Make it Martial and I would use this.



Lumber Axe:
++++++++
Range: 20
Damage: d8
Critical: x3
Type: Slash
Two Handed thrown
Weight: 6 lb.
Cost: 10 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Throwing lumber axes is a competitive lumberjack sport in modern times. 1.5x Str modifier added to damage.


Is this able to be used in melee as well? If so I like this one and have little to say about it.



Hammer Throw:
++++++++
Range: 40
Damage: d12
Critical: x3
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Heavy Two handed thrown
Weight: 10 lb
Cost: 8 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Based on the modern (and historical) hammer throwing competition. Requires a full-round attack (spin and release), though rapid shot feat reduces to a standard action. 2x Str modifier added to damage. Can have a rounded or spiked head, chosen at creation/purchase.

Again, woefully underpowered. Even the rapid-shot feat only gives you a single attack a round and unless you're a Hulking Hurler (in which case you have better epicness) or a Festering Anger monkey double str mod does not make up for the loss of attacks.




tl;dr

None of these are worth an EWP and they don't need the limits they're getting (I know that's for the sake of realism but for the sake of being competitive with existing weapons they cannot afford it.)

The Zoat
2012-03-25, 06:11 AM
Yup. They really aren't worth exotic-ness.

Ashtagon
2012-03-25, 06:30 AM
Roped weapons: You appear to be using the same mechanic that 3.0e used for the whip -- you're treating what is really a melee weapon as a ranged attack. In the case of the single-headed meteor hammer, real examples have ropes (or chains, but usually ropes) up to 5 metres in length. In other words, there isn't really much reason not to treat it as a weapon that can attack any target up to 15 feet away, and give it to weapon finesse quality so you can use Dexterity to make your attack rolls.

The double headed meteor hammer (your "dire" version) typically has a rope up to 3 metres in length (traditionally 2 metres). Again, we can treat this the same way.

Incidentally, based on wikipedia's 3 kg for the single-headed version, you've got your weights way over budget.

If you are going to insist on making them exotic, they should certainly also be monk weapons.

Atlatl: Just to add to your historical notes, it is called a woomera in Australia, and examples from prehistoric times have been found across Europe and North Africa. I think your damage is a bit high on this to make claims towards realism though.

Lumber axe: How is this different from a throwing axe?

Hammer throw: How is this different from a throwing axe?

In the above two cases, I accept the game stats are different, maybe even very different. But given that physically these weapons are almost imperceptible from the SRD weapons of similar names, why do they have such superior performance?

bobthe6th
2012-03-25, 08:26 AM
sugested changes in bold(not titles)



Roped weapons
Roped weapons are exactly what they sound like: Attacking at a range and being able to retrieve your weapon without moving. The one-handed roped (dart) would be a free action to retrieve, while the two-handed (meteor hammer/dire meteor hammer) would be a move action to retrieve unless the rapid reload feat is acquired. There is a maximum range increment of 2x base increment (too much rope would be unwieldy).

Rope Dart:
++++++++
Range: 20
Damage: d6
Critical: x4
Type: Pierce
One-handed roped & melee
Weight: 2 lb
Cost: 5 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat.




Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 15
Damage: d8
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Can be used to trip, +2 on disarm checks
Weight: 8 lb.
Cost: 12 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have a rounded or spiked head, chosen at creation/purchase.

Dire-Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 10
Damage: Double Weapon d6/d6
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Can be used to trip, +2 on disarm checks
Weight: 12 lb.
Cost: 20 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Based on meteor hammer/dire flail cross. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have rounded and/or spiked heads, chosen at creation/purchase.


or as martial weapons

Rope Dart:
++++++++
Range: 20
Damage: d6
Critical: x3
Type: Pierce
One-handed roped & melee
Weight: 2 lb
Cost: 5 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat.

Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 15
Damage: d6
Critical: x2
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Can be used to trip, +2 on disarm checks
Weight: 8 lb.
Cost: 12 gp
Required: Exotic Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have a rounded or spiked head, chosen at creation/purchase.

Dire-Meteor Hammer:
++++++++
Range: 10
Damage: Double Weapon d6/d6
Critical: x3
Type: Bludgeon/Pierce
Two handed roped
Weight: 12 lb.
Cost: 20 gp
Required: martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Based on meteor hammer/dire flail cross. Can also be used in melee combat. Can have rounded and/or spiked heads, chosen at creation/purchase.

Chaos_Laicosin
2012-03-25, 12:41 PM
Edited the first post. I was copying it all over from another document so some of the stuff got scrambled in the original post was not what I had intended. Changed rope dagger/dart to MWP, added x3 crit for rope dart, added that roped weapons can be finessed, noted that lumber axe can be used in melee, added MWP and modified range increment on atlatl, removed all instances of using a FRA to attack, upped base damage on hammer throw and dropped modifier to 1.5x Str.

I like the rope dart idea, but I don't think it would be justified in x4 crit or d6 damage, it is still a very light weapon.

On EWP for the meteor hammers, I had intended that they threaten to their range increment so I figured I'd try and balance that with the EWP (and two-weapon fighting in the dire case). Also, I recall seeing a demonstration on TV and the "master" meteor hammer user even messed up sometimes...




Lumber axe: How is this different from a throwing axe?

Hammer throw: How is this different from a throwing axe?

In the above two cases, I accept the game stats are different, maybe even very different. But given that physically these weapons are almost imperceptible from the SRD weapons of similar names, why do they have such superior performance?

Unless I'm mistaken, SRD doesn't list any 2H throwing weapons. I figured using 2 hands would not only increase your damage output (bigger weapon, more Str modifier) but it would also increase the amount of control you have on the throw (increase range increment). And the hammer throw evolved from an idea of having artillery like weapons in a pre-gunpowder era. Also, for the flavour blunt/piercing damage.

bobthe6th
2012-03-25, 12:57 PM
those were just to bring it up to code for EWP, as it is now MWP they are irelivant.
but the damage is now a bit low(1d10 base for one handed M, -1 range, -1 crit=d6...) though I guess the free retreval pushes it to 2... don't know...

if that is the logic, then the meteor hammer is fine.

now I want to build a roped thrower class... like monk+swashbuckler+master thrower...

Ashtagon
2012-03-25, 02:12 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, SRD doesn't list any 2H throwing weapons. I figured using 2 hands would not only increase your damage output (bigger weapon, more Str modifier) but it would also increase the amount of control you have on the throw (increase range increment). And the hammer throw evolved from an idea of having artillery like weapons in a pre-gunpowder era. Also, for the flavour blunt/piercing damage.

ok, I see the two-handed bit about your axes and hammers now. Frankly, I think you have an odd idea about the scale of real world lumber axes. The real world weapon would be a one-handed weapon (in D&D terms) that is commonly used two-handed when chopping wood.

This particular two-handed technique is really bad for trying to hit anything that might actually be able to move out of the way of its own free will.

tbh, I would have thought that any two-handed throwing technique would be intrinsically less accurate than a one-handed technique. With one handed throwing, you can more easily sense your body stance and balance, which is crucial for any kind of accuracy. You'd also need to precisely coordinate two sets of muscles in the throw instead of just one, which is surprisingly hard in less than perfect conditions.

Ninjadeadbeard
2012-03-25, 04:15 PM
Roped weapons
Roped weapons are exactly what they sound like: Attacking at a range and being able to retrieve your weapon without moving. There is a maximum range increment of 2x base increment (too much rope would be unwieldy). They can also be used to trip/disarm, and apply they to the weapon finesse feat.

Rope Dagger/Dart:
++++++++
Range: 10
Damage: d4
Critical: 19-20/x2 (dagger) or x3 (dart)
Type: Pierce
One-handed roped & melee
Weight: 2 lb
Cost: 5 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Historical Chinese weapon. Can also be used in melee combat.


I've actually seen something like this in Arms and Equipment Guide called a Chain-and-Dagger. I can't find it on an online database, but it's fairly similar to this. I think it weighs another 2lbs and doesn't have that x3 (dart), and it's considered an Exotic Weapon. That being said, I actually really like this better. Certainly makes more sense. I sort of want to see what you'd do with a Pilum now.

Chaos_Laicosin
2012-03-26, 07:46 PM
I sort of want to see what you'd do with a Pilum now.

So I read up on the pilum and my understanding is that it was a thrown weapon similar to a javelin, but heavier and specifically designed to penetrate and disable shields (and armour too). It had a barbed head so that it would be difficult to remove from shields (forcing the carrier to drop it) and a weak shaft so that it would break and be unusable by the enemy. Considering its intended use, I'd probably go something like:

Pilum:
++++++++
Range: 20
Damage: d6
Critical: x2
Type: Pierce
One-handed thrown
Weight: 4 lb
Cost: 3 gp
Required: Martial Weapon Prof
Notes: Can be used to make a ranged sunder attack against shields and armour using the same mechanic as sundering a carried or worn item. Shields are treated as a carried item in this case. Since it is at range the opponent will not get an attack of opportunity. The pilum will stick into the item on a successful sunder (unless the item breaks) and cause the opponent to suffer a -2 penalty to dexterity. As a standard action the opponent can attempt a DC 16 Str check to remove the pilum from the item. Bends upon a successful sunder, though can be re-aligned with a DC 14 craft check and 1 minute of work.

I suppose that might be a little over the top for a single weapon, but I wasn't sure how else to give it its intended shield disabling property.

Sage of Legaia
2012-03-26, 09:05 PM
Hmm, concerning the pilum, if it breaks every use, shouldn't it be a bit cheaper, or perhaps a pound lighter? There's not a whole lot of reason to take a 4 pound weapon that's only usable for one attack, even if it does confer a penalty to its target when used to sunder.

Then again, perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, and it's meant to say that it breaks after a successful sunder, and not just a successful attack, which would make a lot more sense. It's just not clear (to me) as written.

bobthe6th
2012-03-26, 10:06 PM
rather then break, I would have it be bent requiring a minute of work to undo. then it is a one/encounter sort of thing.

Chaos_Laicosin
2012-03-26, 10:52 PM
Edited pilum post, better with craft check after sunder attempt?

Azoth
2012-03-27, 12:38 AM
Don't know if anyone else who has ever actually used these weapons has chimed in it, but I have to say that they are two handed weapons through and through as far as the rope weapons are concerned. You need to use one hand to hold the extra rope while the other hand is used to spin the weight before launching it outwards. These are things I would consider exotic weapons for non-monks as my buddy's have tried to use my rope dart and ended up injuring themselves pretty commically if I do say so myself on several occassions. The 1.5 strength mod to damage is also appropriate seeing as you can build up massive tension in the rope before releasing it for a strike greatly amplifying your normal force.