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Lestroisrois
2012-03-28, 06:15 PM
It's a well known fact that Monk is only good as a dip because almost all of its abilities have nothing to do with each other. It's also because their best abilities, Wis to AC and Increase to Speed, both only work when you wear no armor at all. I mean, come on, Barbarians get a speed boost too and they can wear armor without losing it. To solve what I believe to be one of the most broken (in a bad way) class abilities, I've come up with a new Magic Item quality for Armor: the Monk Quality.Monk
Price: +1
Property: Light Armor, Buckler, or Light Shield
Caster Level: TBD
Aura: TBD; (DC TBD) abjuration
Activation: ---

The item appears to phase in and out at some spots, as if parts of it didn't even exist.

Created by Monks who wished to fight in armor without losing maneuverability, items that have this property are especially useful to characters of that class. While wearing light armor, a buckler or a light shield with this property, you are almost as light as when not wearing armor shields at all. Armor and shields with this property weigh half as much as a normal item of that type. Also, light armor, bucklers and light shields with this property have their armor check penalty lowered by 2 and their maximum DEX increased by 2. The greatest ability of this property is its maneuverability. While wearing light armor, a buckler or a light shield with this property, you do not count as wearing armor or a shield for the purpose of Monk abilities (This includes abilities marked as "as monk" such as those granted by the Druid ACF; see Unearthed Arcana page 58).
If you wear multiple items (such as armor and a shield) without all items having this property, you no longer count as if not wearing armor (In other words, if you wear a Chain Shirt with this quality, you count as unarmored. If you wear a Monk Chain Shirt plus a Buckler without this quality, you count as wearing armor. As soon as you drop the Buckler, however, you no longer count as armored.).
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, freedom of movement, [there might be more; not sure yet...]
Cost to Create: Varies

Monk, Greater
Price: +2
Property: Armor or Shield
Caster Level: TBD
Aura: TBD; (DC TBD) abjuration
Activation: ---

The item appears to phase in and out all over, as it didn't even exist.

Created by Monks who wished to fight in superior armor without losing maneuverability, items that have this property are especially useful to characters of that class. While wearing armor or a shield with this property, you are almost as light as when not wearing armor or a shield at all. Armor and shields with this property weigh half as much as a normal item of that type. Also, light armor, bucklers and light shields with this property have their armor check penalty lowered by 4 and their maximum DEX increased by 4. The greatest ability of this property is its maneuverability. While wearing armor or a shield with this property, you do not count as wearing armor or a shield for the purpose of Monk abilities (This includes abilities marked as "as monk" such as those granted by the Druid ACF; see Unearthed Arcana page 58).
If you wear multiple items (such as armor and a shield) without all items having this property, you no longer count as if not wearing armor (In other words, if you wear a Breastplate with this quality, you count as unarmored. If you wear a Greater Monk Breastplate plus a Buckler without this quality, you count as wearing armor. As soon as you drop the Buckler, however, you no longer count as armored.).
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, freedom of movement, [there might be more; not sure yet...]
Cost to Create: Varies
So, what do you think?

eftexar
2012-03-28, 06:32 PM
Must resist... Won't... Won't rant about monk...

In all seriousness though this is nice and I like how you were thinking outside the box (instead of just another monk fix). It definitely aids towards making the monk more tolerable, but it doesn't really fit with the idea of the monk in my opinion (an unarmed unarmored warrior who can still match the 'prowess' of a fighter at the most basic).

Slightly off topic, but I'm still waiting to see a 'Monk class' that doesn't just add more features or use the same structure (basically a re-imagining instead of a fix). Not that I've had any ideas for something like that yet, nor have all of the ideas out there been bad.

Seerow
2012-03-28, 07:06 PM
Monk AC is already fine. You're barking up the wrong tree here.

Lestroisrois
2012-03-28, 09:16 PM
Must resist... Won't... Won't rant about monk...

In all seriousness though this is nice and I like how you were thinking outside the box (instead of just another monk fix). It definitely aids towards making the monk more tolerable, but it doesn't really fit with the idea of the monk in my opinion (an unarmed unarmored warrior who can still match the 'prowess' of a fighter at the most basic).

Slightly off topic, but I'm still waiting to see a 'Monk class' that doesn't just add more features or use the same structure (basically a re-imagining instead of a fix). Not that I've had any ideas for something like that yet, nor have all of the ideas out there been bad.


Monk AC is already fine. You're barking up the wrong tree here.

My main reason for making this is for the character who does a one level dip in Monk or, in the case of my newest character, the Druid ACF that I believe I mentioned in my OP. My new character is a Bone Knight which is almost required to wear armor for its class abilities. As my character is Wis based, I thought a one level dip would help. Then I read the 8th level Bone Knight ability:
Exoskeleton of Undeath (Ex): At 8th level, your bonecraft armor fuses to your body and cannot be removed without killing you. However, you gain immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, death effects, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage to your physical ability scores, ability drain, energy drain, and death from massive damage.
See where I'm going with this?

ForzaFiori
2012-03-28, 11:33 PM
I would suggest limiting it to light armor. Something about a monk running around in full plate and a large steel shield, but still being able to dodge outta the way of arrows is rather strange. I could buy leather or something though, since many martial artists and warrior monks wore padded or thick uniforms to provide some protection.

I've also seen people just stat up gis so that monks can have an armor to enchant. Usually doesn't give more than +1 or +2, but has no max dex or acp.

Coidzor
2012-03-29, 02:59 AM
Slightly off topic, but I'm still waiting to see a 'Monk class' that doesn't just add more features or use the same structure (basically a re-imagining instead of a fix). Not that I've had any ideas for something like that yet, nor have all of the ideas out there been bad.

...You couldn't exactly fix it without doing one of those two things. What were you expecting? Exactly the same yet magically not bad? :smallconfused:

Rejusu
2012-03-29, 07:29 AM
It's also because their best abilities, Wis to AC and Increase to Speed, both only work when you wear no armor at all. I mean, come on, Barbarians get a speed boost too and they can wear armor without losing it. To solve what I believe to be one of the most broken (in a bad way) class abilities

This is probably the biggest problem I have with this. A case could be made for the speed boost, but the Wis to AC isn't broken at all (well aside from it making the Monk more MAD, but that's a different issue). It works exactly as intended. It's meant to make up for the AC lost by not wearing armour, not to just give you bonus AC. This is also one of the reasons why monks make a good dip, their best abilities are front-loaded and wis to AC synergizes well with any other class that has restrictions on wearing armour.

The problem isn't that Wis to AC doesn't work while wearing armour, it's that you want it to.


The item appears to be partially made out of simple materials such as cloth, rope, and other random debris. Though ragged in appearance, the item is substantially lighter, without losing any effectiveness.

...

Armor and shields with this property weigh half as much as a normal item of that type.

You've statted it as if it were a quality yet the description implies it's more like a special material. It's described like it's something that can (and should) only be applied when the armour is created as opposed to being added on later. It also doesn't really make sense on anything other than light armour the way it's described. It'd be more appropriate to refluff it as some kind of ghost like armour that looks like it's not even there.


So, what do you think?

I think it's a solution in search of a problem.

Yitzi
2012-03-29, 09:46 AM
It's a well known fact that Monk is only good as a dip because almost all of its abilities have nothing to do with each other.

"Good against casters" does seem to be a pretty common theme; it's just not enough with some of the tricks that casters (especially wizards) can pull. But taking that idea and running with it would help not only make the monk a feasible build, but possibly pull the tier system into a circle, helping balance the whole game.

Adamantrue
2012-03-29, 10:42 AM
I would suggest limiting it to light armor. Something about a monk running around in full plate and a large steel shield, but still being able to dodge outta the way of arrows is rather strange. I could buy leather or something though, since many martial artists and warrior monks wore padded or thick uniforms to provide some protection.

I've also seen people just stat up gis so that monks can have an armor to enchant. Usually doesn't give more than +1 or +2, but has no max dex or acp. Could you roll with the normal version of this trait only working with Light Armor & Light Shields (including Bucklers), and a "Greater Monk" trait that can be applied to all other types of Armors & Shields?

Sgt. Cookie
2012-03-29, 11:56 AM
Personally, I would just state: "Monks can use padded armour, leather armour and Studded leather armour without interfering with monk abilities." and leave it at that.

eftexar
2012-03-29, 03:03 PM
Coidzor, that is, oddly, in itself my point. I don't think the monk can so much be fixed as completely rewritten. I guess my wording was a bit off from my actual point.
As Lestroisrois said none of its abilities have anything to do with one another. They just don't work well together and many of them are very situational or have too many limits.
But back to the topic at hand. I actually think Sgt. Cookies idea might be a better idea. Lestroisrois, if you think that it would be balanced to let the monk have the AC bonus alongside armor then just let it happen.
Or instead of armor why not just increase the bonus the monk gets (not sure if balancing the monk is actually the issue here, but scaling it with level might actually provide a little bit of incentive to actually take more than the first couple of levels).
Otherwise there isn't much else left to determine other than costs and stuff. I would say +2, then set the caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast freedom of movement.

Clawhound
2012-03-29, 03:12 PM
Given the choice, rather than add +X to the cost, I would just add a $$$ cost to the armor, preferably +% to the cost. In essence, you still pay for the bonus AC, but you also leave the armor open for more interesting traits.

Lestroisrois
2012-03-30, 05:37 PM
You've statted it as if it were a quality yet the description implies it's more like a special material. It's described like it's something that can (and should) only be applied when the armour is created as opposed to being added on later. It also doesn't really make sense on anything other than light armour the way it's described. It'd be more appropriate to refluff it as some kind of ghost like armour that looks like it's not even there.


Could you roll with the normal version of this trait only working with Light Armor & Light Shields (including Bucklers), and a "Greater Monk" trait that can be applied to all other types of Armors & Shields?

Updating...

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OP Update Completed.

Adamantrue
2012-03-30, 08:59 PM
I'm not sure if its an obscure but official rule I forgot about, or a piece of homebrew I once read, or just a thought I never followed up on, but would a "Monk" property for weapons be a decent idea that would go along with this theme?

Though it would confuse things...if you Flurry with a Monk Ki Focus Greatsword +1, do you add one and a half times your Strength modifier?

Deepbluediver
2012-03-31, 11:51 AM
My monk fix (which I later decided needs more work) included a choice of special abilities, one of which was called "Monk Armor Proficiency". The way it works was that it gave the monk proficiency in light armor, and with a little time and material, the monk could alter any light armor so that it didn't interfere with other monk skills. The biggest benefit, I thought, would not be the boost to AC, but that fact that you could enchant the armor, giving the monk an additional slot for magic items.

I've since though about altering it to let it do the same with any armor that the monk is proficient with, meaning that he would need to spend feats on medium and heavy armor proficiencies, but you could eventually end up with a monk in full plate.
I can't decide whether I think that would be awesome or horrifying.


@Adamantrue
I believe there is a published monk quality for a weapon,called "Ki Focus" that lets you channel ki charges when armed, as opposed to just when fighting barehanded. Frankly, the fact that you need a magic weapon just to make good use of your core abilities is a good indicator of the kind of thing thats wrong with the whole class.

Personally, I would prefer to just alter both the monk's Ki Strike and Flurry of Blows abilities so that he can use them with any weapon that the monk is proficient with. Yes the monk is better at fighting unarmed that any other melee class, but that shouldn't mean the monk can ONLY fight bare-handed.

Adamantrue
2012-03-31, 04:10 PM
@Adamantrue
I believe there is a published monk quality for a weapon,called "Ki Focus" that lets you channel ki charges when armed, as opposed to just when fighting barehanded. Frankly, the fact that you need a magic weapon just to make good use of your core abilities is a good indicator of the kind of thing thats wrong with the whole class.

Personally, I would prefer to just alter both the monk's Ki Strike and Flurry of Blows abilities so that he can use them with any weapon that the monk is proficient with. Yes the monk is better at fighting unarmed that any other melee class, but that shouldn't mean the monk can ONLY fight bare-handed. Ki Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#kiFocus) isn't what I was referring to, though I disagree with the suggestion that its a bad ability. Getting a Lawful Adamantine Weapon (if one actually took that many levels in Monk) that you can use Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm through would actually be pretty cool, and a bargain for only +1.

No...I was talking about something like Skillful from Complete Arcane, but is specific to Monks, allowing them to use Flurry of Blows with it. At a +1 or so, I think it'd still be a fair alternative to the Eberron Feats (Double Steel Strike, Serpent Strike, and Whirling Steel Strike).

Getting back to Prerequisites for these Armor Properties...you'd need to be a 7th level Caster to cast the spell in the first place, setting the minimum to create such an item. Would Caster Level 14 be too much for the Greater Monk version?