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View Full Version : Took A Wrong Turn At Albuquerque [3.5 Base class, PEACH!]



Hazuki
2012-03-30, 11:06 PM
The extra "L" stands for Luscious!


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The Traveller

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/832/traveller.jpg

"He’s like fire and ice and rage. He’s like the night, and the storm at the heart of the sun. He’s ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and he can see the turn of the universe... And he’s wonderful.”

Description: A Traveller is someone who's in tune with the world and tales; they seem to know how things work or strive to make things work how they want them to. Thanks to a magic in themselves, simply gaining it from birth or any other source, they can understand stories, knowledge, or create it themselves.

They understand patterns in things, from insight or referring to things they've seen before. Their ability to percieve and explore grant them versatility drawn from themselves. They can learn how to wield a blade from a tale of a hero, or how to disappear and re-appear somewhere else by watching a Wizard teleport.

They are often extremely inspirational individuals, thanks to a focus on Charisma.

Alignment: Travellers may be of any alignment, though the attitude of each is unique. An Evil Traveller may seek to emulate the tale of a conquering tyrant, or to be the devil that whispers in the ears of people. A Good traveller might seek out other people to aid and teach lessons to, from what they know to do whenever they need to.

Abilities: The most important Ability for a Traveller is Charisma; it governs many of their Class Features. Int is also important for the Traveller's class skills and some class features.

Hit Die: D6

Class Skills: (6 + Int Mod per level - X4 at Character Level 1)

A Traveller's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (All), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (N/A), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

The Traveller
{TABLE=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Maximum Spell Level
1 | +0 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Auspices, Fables | 1st
2 | +1 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Confident Stance, Path of Skills (1) | 1st
3 | +2 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Knowledge Devotion, Legendary Will | 2nd
4 | +3 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Path of Feats (1), Path of Skills (2), Stubborn Longetivity | 2nd
5 | +3 | +4 | +1 |+4 | Signs, Soothing Voice | 3rd
6 | +4 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Legendary Reflexes, Path of Skills (3) | 3rd
7 | +4 | +5 | +2 | +5 | No Know Fear | 4th
8 | +6/+1 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Path of Skills (4), Path of Feats (2), Heartfelt Stance | 4th
9 | +6/+1 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Legendary Fortitude, Sharing The Knowledge | 5th
10 | +7/+2 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Signs, Path of Skills (5) | 5th
11 | +8/+3 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Bold Intervention | 6th
12 | +9/+4 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Path of Skills (6), Path of Feats (3) | 6th
13 | +9/+4 | +8 | +4| +8 | Lorehound | 7th
14 | +10/+5 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Path of Skills (7), That's No Moon | 7th
15 | +11/+6/+1 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Signs, Branching Paths | 8th
16 | +12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Path of Skills (8), Path of Feats (4) | 8th
17 | +12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Serene Meditation | 9th
18 | +13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Path of skills (9), The Legend | 9th
19 | +14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Versatility | 9th
20 | +15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Path of Skills (10), Path of Feats (5), Signs, Sanguine Soul Of The Traveller | 9th
[/TABLE]

Weapons And Armor Proficiency: A Traveller is proficient with all Simple Weapons and three Martial or Exotic Weapons of their choice. A Traveller is Proficient with no armor.

Auspices: Through knowing tales and pockets of knowledge, a Traveller may learn to mimic spells.

At 1st level, a Traveller may choose a Spell List (Such as the Wizard/Sorcerer or Druid spell list) from which they will gain spells from, as SLAs, for all future levels. Once chosen, this Spell List may not be changed.

The Traveller may only prepare an amount of spells of each level equal to their (Class Level + Charisma Modifier)/Spell Level, rounded up. For example, a 20th level Traveller with a Charisma Modifier of 5 may only prepare 3 9th level spells each time they prepare or switch their Auspices.

After eight hours of rest, a Traveller may choose an amount of spells from their spell list, up to an amount of their Class Level + 3. This is prepared as an SLA, castable 1/day. A Traveller may not prepare a single spell as an SLA more than once per day.

A Traveller automatically gains all Level 0 Spells from their Spell List as At-Will SLAs.

It takes a Traveller 8 hours of rest and one hour of preparing to prepare their SLAs for the day.

The Save DCs for these SLAs are 10 +Spell Level + Charisma Modifier.

Fables (Ex): A Traveller may make a special Fables check with a bonus equal to his Class Level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the Traveller has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)

A successful Fables check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A Traveller may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

Confident Stance (Ex): The Traveller gains confidence in their actions, allowing them to pull off risky dodges and parries that most wouldn't dare to. They gain a Dodge Bonus to their AC equal to their Charisma Modifier.

Path of Skills (Ex): At 2nd level, and every 2 levels after, the Traveller may choose one Skill Trick that they qualify for whenever they are preparing their Auspices. They gain use of the Skill Trick as if they had bought it, until they next prepare their Auspices.

Knowledge Devotion (Ex): At third level, the Traveller gains Knowledge Devotion as a bonus feat.

Legendary Will (Ex): Through emulation of people who have pushed through overwhelming odds and ordeals, the Traveller learns how to fortify their own Willpower. They gain their Charisma modifier to Will Saves.

Path of Feats (Ex): Beginning at level 4 the Traveller may choose one feat that they qualify for whenever they prepare their Auspices. They gain use of the feat as if they had bought it, until they next prepare their Auspices.

For every 4 levels after 4th, the Traveller may choose and gain use of an additional feat as if they had bought it, until they next prepare their Auspices.

Stubborn Longetivity (Ex): The Traveller has a fierce determination, so much so that they can ignore blows or blasts to get to their goal. The Traveller now gains bonus Hit Points based on their Charisma modifier, instead of their Constitution modifier.

Signs (Ex): At 5th level, a Traveller is able to use their Knowledge Devotion feat to gain an insight bonus on Sense Motive, equal to the bonus on attack and damage they get x3.

At 10th level, the Traveller can spout facts, tidbits, fable aesops, and general nonsense they think of from the top of their heads, so that they can impress, convince, or intimidate a person to get their own way. The Traveller may make a Knowledge Check, opposed by their target's Knowledge Check, in place of Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate, providing the Knowledge check pertains to what they want, if they beat their target's opposed Knowledge check.

This ability requires a minute to utilize. This ability cannot be used with the Traveller's Soothing Voice class feature, but can be used with the Traveller's No Know Fear class feature as an Immediate Action.

At 15th level, the Traveller gains the ability to Take 10 on all Knowledge Checks at any time, even when distracted or threatened.

At 20th level, each time the Traveller makes a Knowledge check, they may roll twice and take the highest result.

Soothing Voice (Su): A 5th level Traveller with 8 or more ranks in Diplomacy can use a composed, steady voice and reason to calm the emotions in others around them.

The creatures to be soothed must be within 30ft of the Traveller, and must be able to understand the language they are speaking. To use this ability, the Traveller makes a Diplomacy Check. The result of this check is the DC for each affected creature's Will Save against the effect. On a success, the creature is affected as if by the Calm Emotions spell. The effect lasts as long as the creature listens to the Traveller.

Soothing Voice requires a Full-Round Action. The Traveller may use this ability 1/day per Class Level.

Legendary Reflexes (Ex): Through emulation of ducks, dives, dips, and dodges of many nimble heroes, the Traveller has learned to improve their own reflexes. The Traveller gains their Charisma modifier as a bonus to all Reflex Saves.

No Know Fear (Ex): The Traveller's confidence in their actions allows them to ignore anything that may try to scare them. The Traveller gains immunity to fear (magical or otherwise).

In addition, the Traveller may, as an immediate action, attempt to Intimidate an opponent that has tried to use a fear effect on them.

Legendary Fortitude (Ex): Through emulation of the hardiest and toughest heroes, the Traveller has learned how to push past impairments to their body. The Traveller gains their Charisma modifier as a bonus to all Fortitude Saves.

Heartfelt Stance(Ex): The Traveller battles with a burning heart, and it shows in how they fight. The Traveller may now use their Charisma modifier for all attack and damage rolls with any ranged or melee weapon. This replaces the Dexterity and/or Strength modifier.

Sharing The Knowledge (Ex): The Traveller knows that their allies can make use of the knowledge they gain. As a Swift Action, the Traveller may give their allies the bonus to attack and damage rolls from their Knowledge Devotion feat.

The Traveller's allies must be within 60ft of them, and be able to hear and understand them.

Bold Intervention (Ex): The Traveller knows what they like and what they don't, and being surprised tends to be a bad thing. The Traveller may always act during a surprise round, and gains a bonus to their initiative equal to their Charisma modifier.

Lorehound (Sp): The Traveller has come to know stories so well, they know how to find more of them. The Traveller gains use of the Legend Lore spell as an SLA, usable 1/day per 5 Levels in Traveller.

That's No Moon (Su): The Traveller can tell when they're being fooled, because they can do all the tricks in the book. The Traveller automatically sees through illusions and invisibility as if affected by a continuous True Seeing effect.

Branching Paths (Sp): As a full-round action, a traveller of 15th level or higher may split her soul in half and create a physical copy of herself. This copy shares her thoughts and mind, but acts on its own initiative and occupies its own squares. Because the two share one mind, they decide their actions together (essentially, this is still one character under control of the player/DM). The copy retains all of her hit points feats, ability scores, skill ranks, base saving throws, base attack bonus, and class features, as well as having an exact copy of all equipment she was carrying. This ability lasts for 1 round per class level and can be used 3/day.

The Traveller may only possess one clone at any time.

Serene Meditation (Su): The Traveller has become so adept at adjusting and adapting to the situation, they are able to more swiftly switch between their abilities. The Traveller may spend 10 Minutes to change their prepared spells 3 times per day.

The Traveller may not prepare a single spell two times per day using Serene Meditation. The amount of prepared spells the Traveller is allowed to switch is equal to the amount of prepared spells that have not been cast at all since last preparing their Auspices.

The Traveller may switch the Feats and Skill Tricks given by Path of Skills and Path of Feats during Serene Meditation.

The Legend (Su): The Traveller has become so in tune with stories and the paths they've travelled, they become part of them. When the Traveller dies, they are affected as if by the spell Gentle Repose. If their form is still whole after an hour of their death, the Traveller is brought back to life as if with the spell Revivify.

Versatility (Ex): The Traveller knows not which path they'll travel next, and from this not-knowledge, they adapt to any situation. The Traveller may use any weapon or armor as if they had the correct proficiency. In addition, the Traveller may use any improvised weapon without penalty.

Sanguine Soul of the Traveller (Su): The Traveller has reached the peak of their capabilities, able to weave stories into all their actions, and leave a path for others to tread behind them.

The Traveller may choose an extra Spell List for use with their Auspices ability. This allows the Traveller to have two sets of the Auspicess class feature, one for each spell list chosen.

eftexar
2012-03-30, 11:17 PM
Interesting. I was worried at first when I saw 9th level spells and mid-bab, but with only being able to cast each 9th level spell once it actually isn't as big an issue as I first though. Still I think a play test is in order to see how it compares against other classes. You might need to cut it down to 7th level spells (because beyond that lies madness).
Branching paths is pretty cool, but if you plan to keep 9th level spells I would have the copy and the original share a single pool of hit points. Regardless I would not allow them to both cast spells in the same round.
Again serene meditation is too much with 9th level spells.
But props for the quote (my favorite series!) and for an interesting class.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-30, 11:18 PM
Hmm...the odd thing about Auspices is the at-will orisons, which means you have at-will healing from level 1 with cure minor wounds. Seems a bit strong, but crusaders get this too, so I guess it's fine.

The chassis is solid and makes sense, a character who isn't too weak or too strong, fairly balanced with hit dice, BAB, saves and skills.

The 10th level Signs ability is just plain amusing. Always good to have amusing class features.

Bonus skill tricks and bonus feats will allow for a lot of customization that you really don't see in games, especially since you get to choose your list every day. This way, if you don't want to go through all the trouble of picking new feats, you can just stick to the same ones and pretend they're normal bonus feats, but if you feel like you want some extra hit points, you can take Improved Toughness and not worry that it's not that good a feat, since you'll only have it for one day anyway. The mechanic is simple and easy to implement and understand, so that's good.

Staggering the Cha-to-saves rather than giving it all at once like the paladin heavily reduces the dippability of the class, which is good, because homebrew classes too often fall prey to that kind of issue.

I couldn't help but chuckle at "That's No Moon". :smallamused:

A very nice class. I look forward to seeing more from you, Zuzu. :smallsmile:

Hipho
2012-03-30, 11:56 PM
Neo already has a nickname for you? That makes me a sad panda-DM :c

That being said I like this class very much. The Signs ability just reminds me of something my dad used to say 'dazzle em with brilliance or baffle em with bull$#|+'

radmelon
2012-03-31, 01:36 AM
I really like this class. The mechanics work well, and the flavour is something I've been looking for for quite a while now. Good job.

Re'ozul
2012-03-31, 02:46 AM
This is prepared as an SLA, castable 10-Spell Level times per day, with a maximum of their Class Level + Charisma Modifier.

Can you explain what the bolded part means? I see two possible explanations and would like to know which is the right one.

1) Each individual spell you choose is castable 10-lvl/day with a max of lvl+cha.

2) Each individual spell you choose is castable 10-lvl/day but you can only cast lvl+cha spells in total per day.

Wavelab
2012-03-31, 04:14 AM
Why could you not have come up with this class a bit earlier, then I would have been playing it in a campaign. This seems to fit my magnificent bastard character perfectly.

And be flattered that I want to play your class, balanced power impresses me.

Hazuki
2012-03-31, 08:11 AM
Interesting. I was worried at first when I saw 9th level spells and mid-bab, but with only being able to cast each 9th level spell once it actually isn't as big an issue as I first though. Still I think a play test is in order to see how it compares against other classes. You might need to cut it down to 7th level spells (because beyond that lies madness).
Branching paths is pretty cool, but if you plan to keep 9th level spells I would have the copy and the original share a single pool of hit points. Regardless I would not allow them to both cast spells in the same round.
Again serene meditation is too much with 9th level spells.
But props for the quote (my favorite series!) and for an interesting class.Thanks for the PEACH (and the compliments)!

Yes, Serene Meditation was something I was quite unsure of. I'm considering making it so you can only re-prepare spells you haven't cast at all yet.


A very nice class. I look forward to seeing more from you, Zuzu. :smallsmile:I will give you nothing more! I'll take me homebrew knowledge...to the grave!


Neo already has a nickname for you? That makes me a sad panda-DM :c

That being said I like this class very much. The Signs ability just reminds me of something my dad used to say 'dazzle em with brilliance or baffle em with bull$#|+'I'd get one for you, but your name is already short!

Heh, that was the idea. Thanks for the kind words.


I really like this class. The mechanics work well, and the flavour is something I've been looking for for quite a while now. Good job.Thank you very much!


Can you explain what the bolded part means? I see two possible explanations and would like to know which is the right one.

1) Each individual spell you choose is castable 10-lvl/day with a max of lvl+cha.

2) Each individual spell you choose is castable 10-lvl/day but you can only cast lvl+cha spells in total per day.The first explanation is the correct one.


Why could you not have come up with this class a bit earlier, then I would have been playing it in a campaign. This seems to fit my magnificent bastard character perfectly.

And be flattered that I want to play your class, balanced power impresses me.Well, it took me about seven whole hours to do it, and I don't normally have the time or patience to work on one thing for so long.

Thank you very much. :smallsmile:

Seerow
2012-03-31, 08:19 AM
After eight hours of rest, a Traveller may choose a one spell from their spell list for each level of Traveller they possess. This is prepared as an SLA, castable 10-Spell Level times per day, with a maximum of their Class Level + Charisma Modifier. A Traveller may not prepare a single spell as an SLA more than once.


So if I'm reading this right, the 20th level traveler could have 20 different 9th level spells prepared 1/day, or 20 1st level spells 9 times per day?

Doesn't that seem a little bit much? Especially with all the other class features you get on top of it. I mean that casting progression alone could make a solid tier 1 caster.

Re'ozul
2012-03-31, 10:34 AM
So if I'm reading this right, the 20th level traveler could have 20 different 9th level spells prepared 1/day, or 20 1st level spells 9 times per day?

Doesn't that seem a little bit much? Especially with all the other class features you get on top of it. I mean that casting progression alone could make a solid tier 1 caster.

Thats precisely what I thought. Hence my question above.

You don't even have to go to 20th level.
Assume you have a 18 in cha and you use your slots for the maximum spell level in all spells.

1st lvl: 1 lvl1 spell, 5/day
2nd lvl: 2 lvl1 spells, 6/day (12 lvl 1 spells total)
3rd lvl: 3 lvl2 spells, 7/day (21 lvl 2 spells total)
4th lvl: 4 lvl2 spells, 8/day (32 lvl2 spells total)
5th lvl: 5 lvl3 spells, 7/day (35 lvl3 spells total)
6th lvl: 6 lvl3 spells, 7/day (42 lvl3 spells total)
7th lvl: 7 lvl4 spells, 6/day (42 lvl4 spells total)
8th lvl: 8 lvl4 spells, 6/day (48 lvl4 spells total)
9th lvl: 9 lvl5 spells, 5/day (45 lvl5 spells total)
10th lvl: 10 lvl5 spells, 5/day (50 lvl3 spells total)

At this point the system somewhat breaks down as you'd need a lot of high level spells and there really aren't that many useful ones in each list.

But its easy to see where the problem lies with the system.

Hazuki
2012-03-31, 11:41 AM
Yes, that is a lot, though I didn't realize it until now.

Does anybody have any suggestions for how to fix the casting system?

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-31, 12:00 PM
I wouldn't be too worried about the sheer number of SLAs per day this class gets. You have the versatility of a wizard, so you can afford to prepare spells like remove paralysis and clairaudience/clairvoyance, but unlike the wizard, you get a massive, sorcerer-like amount of these spells per day, but they consume a large majority of your resources. A wizard need only devote one spell on his list to this endeavor, while a traveller only gets twenty different spells per day. I mean, every traveller is probably going to want overland flight, but once you prepare it, you cast it once and fly all day, but it still sits there, consuming a full 10% of your spells known for the day when you gain access to it.

The traveller is limited in its day-to-day versatility like a sorcerer, but it has a lot more options when it does prepare, like a wizard. The spells it does choose, it can use all day, like a sorcerer. So, in the end, the class combines the best of both worlds while still being much less useful than the wizard, at least where spellcasting is concerned. But that's okay, because the traveller isn't supposed to be a wizard. He has his own flavor and his own unique class features. With the skill points, the Signs abilities and the large amount of extra skill tricks and feats, you're going to have plenty to do other than casting spells, which is a good thing. Even if you have the ability to cast all-day every-day, you have other options too, so it's not very likely that you'll end up casting spells every round like a wizard does.

This class actually looks like it would be pretty fun to play, and that's coming from a guy who can't stand all the bookwork that normally comes with a prepared caster.

Re'ozul
2012-03-31, 12:46 PM
This class actually looks like it would be pretty fun to play, and that's coming from a guy who can't stand all the bookwork that normally comes with a prepared caster.

Thats because it isn't really a prepared caster and not really a spontaneous one either.

It looks a bit like a sorcerer, but...
Look at the spell levels: 0th/1st/2nd at 5th level
Sorcerer: 6/4/2
This class: all/(all/all/all) choose 5 of the ones you want of the ones in parentheses.

The fact that you know all the spells on the list and can change which ones to use every day reminds me a lot of the botched spellpoint variant for wizards that made them even more powerful.

Honestly, I liked my second version in my above question:
Each spell can theoretically be used 10-lvl times/day but you can only use CL+cha spells per day. That limits the total spellpower per day to something lower than fullcasters but still keeps the general versatility of the choosing-method. It also never truly breaks down unless you later push everything into 9th level spells, but most spell lists don't have that many 9th level spells and you can only use each once anyway.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-31, 01:01 PM
Honestly, I liked my second version in my above question:
Each spell can theoretically be used 10-lvl times/day but you can only use CL+cha spells per day. That limits the total spellpower per day to something lower than fullcasters but still keeps the general versatility of the choosing-method. It also never truly breaks down unless you later push everything into 9th level spells, but most spell lists don't have that many 9th level spells and you can only use each once anyway.

What? If I'm level 5, I'm lucky to have 20-21 Cha. (18+either racial, which is really rare for Cha, or a +2 item, if my DM has given it to me by then). So at level 5, I would be getting 10 spells per day, from your system. A level 1 sorcerer gets 9 spells per day. I think I see a problem with your logic here...

Yes, you get more higher level spells per day, but so does a focused specialist wizard. A focused specialist wizard gets as many spells per day as a sorcerer and still gets his faster progression and his ridiculous amount of higher level spells known.

If you want to cap the spells per day this class can cast, that's certainly an idea, but a wizard gets 40 spells per day at level 20, if he's a non-elven generalist. If he's a focused specialist, he gets 60 spells per day, plus the bonus spells for a high Intelligence score. So, probably closer to 70 or 75 spells per day.

To match a non-elven generalist wizard using your suggestion (read also: The worst wizard you can play), you would need a Charisma score of 50 at level 20. Even if you managed to somehow get your Charisma score that high, a wizard who specializes instantly gets 10 more spells per day than you.

I agree that the wizard's only shtick is his spells, so perhaps matching a focused specialist wizard with this class is a bit much. But wizards get metamagic, they get prestige classes, and they get the increased daily versatility that I pointed out before.

Even if this class could cast spells at will, the spells it did cast would each be individually worse than the spells the wizard could cast via metamagic and prestige class enhancements. Nerfing the traveller's SLAs to worse than a warlock's isn't a good method of balance.

Eloel
2012-03-31, 01:36 PM
This looks like Factotum fell in love with Bard, but the baby turned out to be a Wizard.

I love the idea, I love the class, but "as many spells as Sorcerer, 1 level earlier, changeable every day among ALL spelllists" sounds like recipe for disaster.

At level 9 (when wizards are deemed to break the game completely), this guy gets 45 5th level spells. Yes, 45. That's way too much.

There's also the "other lists" problem. Till level 9, you cast from Assassin, Ranger or similar lists, gaining access to spells not meant to be accessed till later on the level spectrum.


This is, as written, stronger than StP Erudite. StP Erudite is pretty strong.

Hazuki
2012-03-31, 01:44 PM
Among all spell lists? You have to choose one spell list to get your Auspices from. It says that right at the beginning, there. Also, if you choose Assassin, for example, you wouldn't get 5th level or higher spells until 20th level...

Re'ozul
2012-03-31, 01:53 PM
What? If I'm level 5, I'm lucky to have 20-21 Cha. (18+either racial, which is really rare for Cha, or a +2 item, if my DM has given it to me by then). So at level 5, I would be getting 10 spells per day, from your system. A level 1 sorcerer gets 9 spells per day. I think I see a problem with your logic here...

You are making a cantrip mistake there. A lvl 1 sorcerer gets 3 level 1 spells and 6 cantrips. This class (even my version) gets infinite cantrips and 5 times a lvl 1 spell. Sure you only get one spell but can use it more often than the sorcerer.
Your example gives you 10 lvl1+ spells at level 5. A sorc gets 6 lvl1 and 4lvl2. The sorc gets bonus spells while this class has access to lvl3s. still pretty even. Afterwards it gets more in favor of the sorc, true. But look at lvl 20 for hyperbole. A sorc with 30 cha gets 54 (+17 bonus) lvl1+ spells. This class would get 30 with my version.
While that may seem drastically less, the sorc has no class features, this one has tons and 30 spells/day really still isn't bad.


Yes, you get more higher level spells per day, but so does a focused specialist wizard. A focused specialist wizard gets as many spells per day as a sorcerer and still gets his faster progression and his ridiculous amount of higher level spells known.

So? By that argument most homebrew classes are utterly underpowered. Usually homebrew isn't measured against Tier 1 classes for a reason.


If you want to cap the spells per day this class can cast, that's certainly an idea, but a wizard gets 40 spells per day at level 20, if he's a non-elven generalist. If he's a focused specialist, he gets 60 spells per day, plus the bonus spells for a high Intelligence score. So, probably closer to 70 or 75 spells per day.


Again, cantrip mistake, only 36 spells/day plus bonus, but thats minor.
Also again, comparing to Tier 1 class.


Even if this class could cast spells at will, the spells it did cast would each be individually worse than the spells the wizard could cast via metamagic and prestige class enhancements. Nerfing the traveller's SLAs to worse than a warlock's isn't a good method of balance.

Please explain to me how my version is worse than a warlock?
You can still choose different spells each day and can use them to great effect, you just can't spam them too much. Furthermore, in higher levels you'll be restricted by the current system as well. 7th level spells can only be used 3 times, if you can use about 20 spells per day by lvl 13 thats not too much an issue.

Eloel
2012-03-31, 02:06 PM
Among all spell lists? You have to choose one spell list to get your Auspices from. It says that right at the beginning, there. Also, if you choose Assassin, for example, you wouldn't get 5th level or higher spells until 20th level...
Right. I misunderstood the "you may not change" part as "you may not mix and match" and that you'd choose one every day. My bad.

Still, more versatility (change twice a day at 10 minutes notice, all sorcerer spells in list (not available to wizards), all spells in 'spellbook') and more spells (again, at L20, 40 8th level spells, or 20 9th level spells) than a Wizard for cheaper and easier (some put the 'spells are hard to find' as a constraint, some enforce inscription skills). That doesn't add up to 'balance' by any meaning of the word.

Straybow
2012-03-31, 02:07 PM
Yes, that is a lot, though I didn't realize it until now.

Does anybody have any suggestions for how to fix the casting system? Total of 1st-9th level spells 1/class level (unchanged).

For each spell level, further limited to maximum prepared and maximum cast = (class level + Cha mod)/spell level.

Cantrips/Orisons separately limited to (class level + 2xCha mod) prepared and cast.

NotScaryBats
2012-03-31, 02:22 PM
Shouldn't it be "Know No Fear?"

Hazuki
2012-03-31, 02:32 PM
Total of 1st-9th level spells 1/class level (unchanged).

For each spell level, further limited to maximum prepared and maximum cast = (class level + Cha mod)/spell level.

Cantrips/Orisons separately limited to (class level + 2xCha mod) prepared and cast.That seems to fit very well, Straybow. Thank you very much! :smallsmile:


Shouldn't it be "Know No Fear?"Nope, no it should not. :smallwink:

I've implemented Straybow's idea for limiting Auspices, and edited the Serene Meditation Class Feature to make it less game-breaking.

JackMage666
2012-03-31, 04:14 PM
The first thing I notice right off the bat is how SAD this class is.

By 20th Level, Cha determines -
Spells known that day
The DC for the SLAs
And adds to
All Saves
Initiative
Attack and Damage
AC (Dodge)

I think you got this idea from the Warblade. The problem with this is the Warblade isn't casting like a Wizard or Cleric.

Actually, there's not much to dislike about this class (and that's not necessarily a good thing, balance wise.) Spells as SLAs mean you can wear armor plus a bonus equal to your undoubtably highest ability, Med-BAB and D8 HD means you're not useless in combat, 2 Good Saves, all modified by Cha, a high amount of skills per day, and daily changable bonus feats. AND they never really die, and even if they do, there's not a single drawback.

Is there anything this class can't do?

Also, may want to add a clause about "Must pay XP or Material component" should a spell call for them, because RAW, SLA's don't require this. As is, the Cleric-emulating Traveller could spam True-Res and Miracle for free.

NeoSeraphi
2012-03-31, 10:07 PM
Also, may want to add a clause about "Must pay XP or Material component" should a spell call for them, because RAW, SLA's don't require this. As is, the Cleric-emulating Traveller could spam True-Res and Miracle for free.

Clerics can already spam miracle for free. The miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) spell isn't like wish, you only have to pay an XP cost if the thing you are asking is extraordinarily powerful, like resurrection, plane-shifting, or preventing a natural disaster.

This class can only cast one copy of any given 9th level spell per day, also, so there won't be any "spamming" of true resurrection or miracle.

JackMage666
2012-03-31, 11:16 PM
Clerics can already spam miracle for free. The miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) spell isn't like wish, you only have to pay an XP cost if the thing you are asking is extraordinarily powerful, like resurrection, plane-shifting, or preventing a natural disaster.

This class can only cast one copy of any given 9th level spell per day, also, so there won't be any "spamming" of true resurrection or miracle.

You're right, miracle is a bad example.

But the using of those costly abilities are still free. He can use Gate as well. Just because he can only do it once a day doesn't mean it's not overpowered. If he's using a Wizard's list, he can just have Wish every day - If it's not used for something else, he gains a +1 Inherent to an Ability. Or ANY magic item, of ANY value. Daily.
Actually, no reason not to take the Wizard list, you can Wish for a scroll of any spell you want to cast, anyway.

With True Ressurection, daily, death isn't really an issue for the party. Or anyone else they favor. Or anyone. Why not revive something, it's free. Oh, 2 PCs died? Wait another day.

Plus, if you're having trouble in combat, just Gate in a Balor to help out.

These spells have high costs because they're supposed to be occassional spells, not Daily spells.

Wavelab
2012-03-31, 11:42 PM
I personally don't think the 1/day high level spells are that much of a problem. Yes it can be open to abuse, but look at it this way, this class is probably T1 but it's still less powerful than a wizard.

And Hazuki, I'm playing this class in a campaign(I just changed my character to use this class instead of what I started with). It's level 10. Consider it a playtest. If you want to monitor the progress the IC thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12991304#post12991304). Just be aware there might be some conversations between me and the DM through PM due to the character's behind the scenes planning.

Seerow
2012-04-01, 12:24 AM
I personally don't think the 1/day high level spells are that much of a problem. Yes it can be open to abuse, but look at it this way, this class is probably T1 but it's still less powerful than a wizard.


No. This is STRONGER than a Wizard. The character can have 20 9th level spells. Seriously go look at a few 9th level spells. Or if he wants to abuse Arcane Fusion and the like, he can have say 10 9th level spells, 10 8th level spells, and 15 7th level spells. That's far and away more high level spell slots than any wizard could want. If he wants lower level utility spells, he can trade away the raw power of high level spells for those utility spells usable so often they may as well be at will. (Knock 8/day? Sure why not. Probably better to keep the 9th level spell, but if you really want it that bad, you can have it).

And just like a Wizard, this class can re-choose his spell-likes every day. Remember that's the main strength of a tier 1: The ability to adapt his spell list on a days notice, and access to a full caster spell list. This class has both of those. Except it ALSO has medium BAB, 2 good saves, 6 skill points per level, and a d8 hit die.

Oh but we're just getting started. Having a top tier chasis and better-than-wizard casting wasn't enough, no. You get Lore for free and Knowledge Devotion, so you've got a free hit/bdamage bonus, no resource investment required. You gain charisma bonus to all saves, AC AND hitpoints, on top of your already amazing chasis so anything that's not reflex probably isn't hitting you, and even reflex you're better than most people. You get 1-10 skill tricks and 1-5 feats that you get to prepare every day. Worth noting: This is in addition to the Spells you are also choosing every day. You are literally more flexible than a Wizard and Chameleon combined. Oh and remember that free Lore skill you got earlier? Yeah, well now you get to apply that for free in place of all social skill checks. So you have 6+ skills per level, but about half the skills out there you don't really need, you just have them for free, except what you need to pick up for skill trick prereqs, since you want to be able to switch between those as situation warrants.

Let's see what else do we have... always act in a surprise round, so even if you're totally surprised you can still drop one of your 20 9th level spells on the enemy. And they'll probably go first because their SAD stat Charisma gets added to initiative. You gain a legend lore SLA without needing to choose it, so we actually have 21 SLAs as opposed to what was said. Your knowledge devotion gets applied to all allies (???) for bard level buffing even without spells, continuous true seeing, a ridiculous number of times per day you can CLONE YOURSELF.

Okay then the last few abilities. You gain a contingent true resurrection, with no usage restrictions, just anytime you die you come back 24 hours later. You're literally a Lich without a phylactery, and a faster regeneration time. You gain the ability to spend 10 minutes to re-prepare any of your spells. So now? You don't even need one days notice to have those really obscure necessary spells. Just 10 minutes. And then to top it all off, the crowning jewel, you make every Mystic Theurge everywhere cry simultaneously because you now get access to any two spell lists you want when preparing your spells.




I mean really, I didn't do much more than summarize the abilities this class grants, but it is crazy. I would argue even if you took away the casting completely, it would probably be a pretty high tier 3, between the great skills, flexible feats, some divination, and the various defensive and offensive bonuses, plus ally buffing. I'd still really lean towards removing the constant true resurrection, and the cloning (or at least cut the cloning down a lot in terms of usages per day, and make sure you can't have more than one clone out ever). But even taking all that away, you're looking at a solid tier 3.




If you want to keep the casting to a degree, and maintain a solid tier 2, you need to restrict it way heavily. Like only 1/day per sla regardless of level. You get 1 SLA of each spell level you have access to. (so 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, etc). Completely remove the bonus spell list from the capstone, and the reprepare spells with 10 minutes ability. And then start slashing a few other random abilities as well. Probably the bonus to hit points from charisma, the bonus to initiative/always act in surprise round, drop the hit die down to d6, make the feats regular bonus feats, and maybe cut them down to only 1 or 2. And probably still take away another couple of class features.



Basically, the casting you gave was too much no matter what. The abilities you gave along with it are still over the top even without the casting. You either need to rip the casting out altogether and tone down the abilities slightly, or leave the casting, but neutered, and rip down the other abilities a lot.



The best litmus test for something like this is: Is there any reason I would want to not play this class? Is there anything else I'd rather play instead? Because as written, your class does literally everything in a way not even the Wizard can compete with, and that's really really bad. Even with my suggested nerfs, I'm pretty sure the class would rank above a Factotum, Chameleon, or other classes that are flexible in nature like this one is.

radmelon
2012-04-01, 12:48 AM
While I agree that the class's spells are too much, and that 1/day each is a good limitation, or maybe restricting it to lower levels of spells, the generalist nature of the class gave me a cool idea.

Since this class fairly represents the 'average' or 'generic' adventurer, it would be a good class for a single-PC game, with the DM running the world for a single player. Interesting thought, and one I would like to play, were any of my friends so inclined.

Wavelab
2012-04-01, 12:51 AM
No. This is STRONGER than a Wizard. The character can have 20 9th level spells. Seriously go look at a few 9th level spells. Or if he wants to abuse Arcane Fusion and the like, he can have say 10 9th level spells, 10 8th level spells, and 15 7th level spells. That's far and away more high level spell slots than any wizard could want. If he wants lower level utility spells, he can trade away the raw power of high level spells for those utility spells usable so often they may as well be at will. (Knock 8/day? Sure why not. Probably better to keep the 9th level spell, but if you really want it that bad, you can have it).


Let's see:


In addition, The Traveller may only prepare an amount of spells of each level equal to their Class Level + Charisma Modifier/Spell Level, rounded up. For example, a 20th level Traveller with a Charisma Modifier of 5 may only prepare 3 9th level spells each time they prepare or switch their Auspices.


Please explain to me where you'll get a high enough charisma modifier for 20 9th level spells a day?

Let's assume a 20th level Traveller.

Charisma starting 18 +2 Racial +5 leveling +5 Inherit from wish + 6 from item = 36 Charisma.

So 20 + 13/9 = 3.6666... rounded up = 4

So we can safely assume that he will have on average 4 9th level spells. While I agree that this is a lot, it doesn't match up to the wizard who gains bonus spells on top of that.

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-01, 01:15 AM
Please explain to me where you'll get a high enough charisma modifier for 20 9th level spells a day?

Let's assume a 20th level Traveller.

Charisma starting 18 +2 Racial +5 leveling +5 Inherit from wish + 6 from item = 36 Charisma.

So 20 + 13/9 = 3.6666... rounded up = 4

So we can safely assume that he will have on average 4 9th level spells. While I agree that this is a lot, it doesn't match up to the wizard who gains bonus spells on top of that.

He's right. The original SLAs were getting into that ridiculous level, but Straybow's suggestion helped balance it out.

Re'ozul
2012-04-01, 04:25 AM
Personally I think everyone is still focusing on high level characters too much.
How many games actually go to 20?
Just look at level 5:

With just a 20 in cha the character can now choose 4 lvl 3 spells that can each be used 7 times, so in effect the character has 28 lvl 3 spells per day at 5th level.

Same with 10th level and a 24 in cha:
You can choose four 5th lvl spells and five 4th level spells resulting in an effective total of twenty 5th lvl spells per day and thirty 4th level spells per day.

Furthermore, the cantrip solution really is only a matter if you are afraid of absolute spamming. At the above 5th level he can use each cantrip 50 times per day. At that point they might as well be at-will.
While spamming can be a problem, its usually something the GM asks of the player to not do. Warlocks get shatter as at-will, but I have yet to see a warlock that just walks around breaking everything he can for the lulz because usually thats just dumb.

Seerow
2012-04-01, 08:28 AM
Okay, I missed the change to SLAs, but it still gets a pretty ridiculous number of spells. Let's look at the full example:


You get 20 SLAs to prepare. You have a +12 charisma modifier, because you add charisma to literally everything, and if you don't have at least that much you're doing something wrong. So you have a 32/9 = 4 9th level spells. 32/8 = 4*2=8 8th level spells. 32/7= 5 *3 = 15 7th level spells. 32/6 = 6 * 4 = 24 6th level spells. And that leaves you 1 extra SLA slot to put into a 5th levle spell, usable 5 times a day.

So in the end you have:
9th-4
8th-4(8)
7th-5(15)
6th-6(24)
5th-1(5)


Basically the only thing the fix really did was create just enough restriction to keep you from completely outclassing the wizard in 9th level spells, so you are just below him there. At every other spell level you outclass what even a Sorcerer can manage as soon as the spell level becomes available (this was shown to good effect in the post above how it outclasses the casters entirely at low level). So the 'fix' only really fixed 17+ to keep you from using a ton of 9th level spells.

Hazuki
2012-04-01, 08:35 AM
The first thing I notice right off the bat is how SAD this class is.

By 20th Level, Cha determines -
Spells known that day
The DC for the SLAs
And adds to
All Saves
Initiative
Attack and Damage
AC (Dodge)

I think you got this idea from the Warblade. The problem with this is the Warblade isn't casting like a Wizard or Cleric.Charisma is the worst attribute, mechanics-wise. Without giving goodies to the people taking the class, they're going to begrduge taking a high Charisma (Which I've seen happen a lot of times).

Dropping the Hit Die and BAB for this specifically is silly, because the Charisma to HP, to-hit, and damage come very late in the game. I could move them to earlier in the class progression...so I'll probably do that.


Actually, there's not much to dislike about this class (and that's not necessarily a good thing, balance wise.) Spells as SLAs mean you can wear armor plus a bonus equal to your undoubtably highest ability, Med-BAB and D8 HD means you're not useless in combat, 2 Good Saves, all modified by Cha, a high amount of skills per day, and daily changable bonus feats. AND they never really die, and even if they do, there's not a single drawback.I've dropped the Hit Die to a d6, but I'm keeping the BAB. Do you have any ideas for an edit to the ressurection ability? I've seen very similar things all across base classes before, without drawbacks.

I'll change it so it's only from damage, yadda yadda, right now.]


And Hazuki, I'm playing this class in a campaign(I just changed my character to use this class instead of what I started with). It's level 10. Consider it a playtest. If you want to monitor the progress the IC thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12991304#post12991304). Just be aware there might be some conversations between me and the DM through PM due to the character's behind the scenes planning.Thank you so much for this interest. :smallsmile: I'll be sure to keep an eye on the game.


*snip*

The best litmus test for something like this is: Is there any reason I would want to not play this class? Is there anything else I'd rather play instead? Because as written, your class does literally everything in a way not even the Wizard can compete with, and that's really really bad. Even with my suggested nerfs, I'm pretty sure the class would rank above a Factotum, Chameleon, or other classes that are flexible in nature like this one is.Alrighty, thank you for your input. :smallsmile: I've changed the amount of times you can cast an SLA to 1/day, but made it so you can prepare an amount equal to your Class Level +3, so that's 4 spells per day at level 1, in total. Excluding Cantrips/Orisons.

I've nerfed the True Ressurection ability and switched around the Charisma ones, and reduced the cloning to 3/day, with the condition that you can only possess one at a time.

Eloel
2012-04-01, 08:48 AM
And with those changes, we now have a low-T2, high-T3 class.

I love the class, I (now) love the balance. Finally a usable Cha-based Factotum-like lucky-go-round class.

Again, love it :smallsmile:

(you may want to push spells back a couple levels [cantrips at 1/2, 1st level at 3/4 etc.] for a solid T3, but it's also nice as-is)

radmelon
2012-04-01, 11:36 AM
Actually, I once did play a warlock that used shatter on every obstacle, removing locks and traps with ease. The DM ragequit.

Wavelab
2012-04-01, 06:19 PM
Alright so now it is a little downgraded. I'd suggest that maybe at level 10 you can pump the SLA's to 2 or 3/day. Just so that he can have a little extra firepower.

I'd like to see the shadowcaster from Tome of Magic built like the previous build, with the 10 - spell level/day mechanic. It would probably fix the shadowcaster quite well. If you wouldn't mind Hazuki :smallbiggrin:

Hazuki
2012-04-01, 07:07 PM
Alright so now it is a little downgraded. I'd suggest that maybe at level 10 you can pump the SLA's to 2 or 3/day. Just so that he can have a little extra firepower.I don't think that'd work with the downgrade in place, sorry. The class wasn't meant for firepower as such in the first place, but you can easily get some extra damage with meta-SLA feats. :smallsmile:


I'd like to see the shadowcaster from Tome of Magic built like the previous build, with the 10 - spell level/day mechanic. It would probably fix the shadowcaster quite well. If you wouldn't mind Hazuki :smallbiggrin:Do you mean me "fixing" the Shadowcaster, or you borrowing the former-system?

If you mean the latter, go right ahead!

If you mean the former... I don't know much about Shadowcasters, honestly. I don't believe I could pull it off very well, sorry.

Wavelab
2012-04-01, 08:56 PM
Do you mean me "fixing" the Shadowcaster, or you borrowing the former-system?

If you mean the latter, go right ahead!

If you mean the former... I don't know much about Shadowcasters, honestly. I don't believe I could pull it off very well, sorry.

I do in fact mean the former. And I emplore you to do it. Pweasy weasy?

Straybow
2012-04-01, 11:17 PM
Okay, I missed the change to SLAs, but it still gets a pretty ridiculous number of spells. Let's look at the full example:

You get 20 SLAs to prepare. You have a +12 charisma modifier, because you add charisma to literally everything, and if you don't have at least that much you're doing something wrong. So you have a 32/9 = 4 9th level spells. 32/8 = 4*2=8 8th level spells. 32/7= 5 *3 = 15 7th level spells. 32/6 = 6 * 4 = 24 6th level spells. And that leaves you 1 extra SLA slot to put into a 5th levle spell, usable 5 times a day.

So in the end you have:
9th-4
8th-4(8)
7th-5(15)
6th-6(24)
5th-1(5) Hmmmm, when I first saw this post I thought something was off and didn't have time to figure it out. Coming back to it now maybe I missed an edit in the mean time, but I don't know where you are getting the *2 for 8th, *3 for 7th, etc. My suggestion as worded was that the maximum number of spells for a given spell level was also the maximum number of times spells of that level that could be cast, however many or few were prepared.

Second, I forgot that in d20 ability boosts and wishes were given out like candy on Halloween. :smalltongue: My bad, bro.

I would, in that case, not use (level+cha)/(spell level). I would use instead a simple (class level)/(spell level) rounded down as is standard for d20, with the further limitation that the initial level allowing a particular spell level allows only one of that level. Then add the bonus spells for cha just like any other casting class. I know you're trying to get away from the standard spellcasting trope, but without doing that it will be overpowered.

Specifically allowing only one for the first level available is redundant as things stand. I would make separate columns for when spells of a particular level are gained if the spell list has only 6 or 4 levels. Maybe for 6 use SL*3-2 and for 4 use SL*4-3. God only knows why you'd choose a 4 level list, but I'd let you get to 4th level spells a little faster than getting to the top level for 6 and 9 level lists.

DracoDei
2012-04-02, 03:33 PM
Drive-by editting suggestion:

a Traveller may choose a one spell from their spell list, up to an amount of their Class Level + 3.
This seems self-contradictory or unclear.

Hazuki
2012-04-02, 03:42 PM
Drive-by editting suggestion:

This seems self-contradictory or unclear.Thanks. Fixed.

And sorry, Wavelab, but I just don't know the class well enough, and I can't think of any way to put my own spin on the class.

Wavelab
2012-04-02, 06:51 PM
Thanks. Fixed.

And sorry, Wavelab, but I just don't know the class well enough, and I can't think of any way to put my own spin on the class.

Don't worry. You are forgiven this time.

Straybow
2012-04-02, 07:38 PM
Oh, BTW, "Traveller" is the trade name of Marc Miller's sci fi rpg. At least in the US "Traveler" is considered the correct spelling.

(Marc says he was never good at spelling, such as "vaccuum suits")

Hazuki
2012-04-02, 07:41 PM
I was never good at spelling, either. :smalltongue: But I can't be bothered to change it now.

The extra "L" stands for "Luscious".

Wavelab
2012-04-03, 07:20 AM
Oh, BTW, "Traveller" is the trade name of Marc Miller's sci fi rpg. At least in the US "Traveler" is considered the correct spelling.

(Marc says he was never good at spelling, such as "vaccuum suits")

Easiest solution. Say we're using the british spelling :smallbiggrin:

NeoSeraphi
2012-04-07, 02:38 PM
Does Heartfelt Stance apply to attacks you make with weaponlike SLAs?

Hazuki
2012-04-07, 02:57 PM
Does Heartfelt Stance apply to attacks you make with weaponlike SLAs?It applies to all ranged and melee weapon attacks. If it has an attack roll, you can apply it to the damage roll.

Magikeeper
2012-04-07, 11:15 PM
When the class description says "Class Level + Charisma Modifier/Spell Level" it clearly intends " (Class Level + Charisma Modifier)/Spell Level ", but I'm not sure it means that by RAW right now. I suggest adding the ().

Also, I think the per-level restriction should be mentioned before the total restriction. It flows better that way.

Hazuki
2012-04-08, 07:55 AM
When the class description says "Class Level + Charisma Modifier/Spell Level" it clearly intends " (Class Level + Charisma Modifier)/Spell Level ", but I'm not sure it means that by RAW right now. I suggest adding the ().

Also, I think the per-level restriction should be mentioned before the total restriction. It flows better that way.Thank you for the comments, and I've edited the OP fittingly. :smallsmile:

Magikeeper
2012-04-09, 04:08 PM
I’ve been thinking about this class, and I think the spellcasting mechanic is an issue.

If you pick the sorc/wiz list you are basically a wizard with an infinite spellbook. On one hand you can only cast each spell 1/day, on the other you ignore material/exp components since they are spell-like abilities. There are a lot of “silver bullet” type arcane spells, I.E. spells that completely own specific situations, so having the entire list is a LOT stronger than having the entire cleric list. There are plenty of wizard spells you wouldn’t want to cast more than once per day, and most other spells have some amount of overlap. Most wizards I have played rarely prepare more than two copies of any given spell anyway.

The rest of the class acts like it is a dread necro or a beguiler – a limited caster that follows a theme, picking up extra abilities that fit the theme in place of spell versatility. But this class is at least debatably more versatile than the wizard, and is definitely using a tier 1 casting mechanic. Not to mention being able to re-prepare spells multiple times per day. So right now this class is less like a dread necro and more like a wizard with an awesome prestige class that is abusing D&D economics to have a spellbook with everything in it.

Versatility is the main source of spellcaster power, and this class is definitely more versatile than the tier 1 classes out of combat and isn't much less versatile than them in combat.



I think you should implement a spells known system. The easiest way to do this would be to replace the “total number of spells prepared” calculation with a “spells known” calculation, have each of them be castable 1/day, and remove the spells per level per day calculation. That would mean you know class level +3 spells. Actually, I would change it to just knowing one spell per class level since you get all cantrips at will at level 1.

That isn’t many spells per day, but if this class hopes to be balanced it needs to have a casting mechanic significantly more limited than regular casters. Also, this makes the sorc/wiz list a less obvious choice as you can easily find 2 spells per spell level worth casting 1/day from the other lists.

The paths would still be prepared as before, and the level 10 ability is still very strong even if it is only changing the feat and skill trick choices.

....Also, maybe use a delayed progression like the sorcerer. This class has some strong abilities going for it.
----------------------------

On another note, versatility is completely out of place at the level you get it. Maybe move it to level 5 and move soothing voice to level 7 (Also, I wouldn't require ranks in a skill to use your class ability - if they have no ranks in it the ability just won't be as good)? You would need a new level 19 ability, maybe something that removed the cap from knowledge devotion (granting an additional +1 for every 5 points over 36)?

Also, instead of having branching paths be 3/day how about 1/five class levels per day? Same effect at the level you get it, but better for epic.

radmelon
2012-04-09, 04:14 PM
I am of the opinion that this class's mechanics for spellcasting are fine, but need to be slowed down. Make it so you don't start out with spells, and you don't get access to really high level spells. Think the bard. While it does have spellcasting, it only gets up to level 6, and not very much. I think that that would fix most of thi's class's problems.

Roguenewb
2012-04-09, 04:41 PM
I love this class, but I think 9th level spells in any class that's doing anything else at all is a little too much (I'm looking at you druid!). Either it stretches you too thin, and you ignore one of your mechanics (druid+animal companion), or you get way too strong because of interactions (druid+wild shape).

I think currently high tier three? maybe low two?

Hazuki
2012-04-09, 06:07 PM
*snip of spellcasting stuff*I think it's fine as it is, the case for it has already been made by people previously in the thread and has been through those revisions.


On another note, versatility is completely out of place at the level you get it. Maybe move it to level 5 and move soothing voice to level 7 (Also, I wouldn't require ranks in a skill to use your class ability - if they have no ranks in it the ability just won't be as good)? You would need a new level 19 ability, maybe something that removed the cap from knowledge devotion (granting an additional +1 for every 5 points over 36)?Argh, I know, I know, but I was having trouble thinking of a good 19th level ability to fix the dead level I suddenly noticed...

But level 5 is a bit too early, if you ask me. I'll consider putting it at some level past 10.

The Soothing Voice ability just has the ranks modified from where I took it from - The Half-Elf Bard. Really, if you're not going for diplomacy right from the beginning, you're not going to want to use Soothing Voice anyway.


Also, instead of having branching paths be 3/day how about 1/five class levels per day? Same effect at the level you get it, but better for epic.I think the fact that it's 3/day is even better for Epic Levels. It's a good limit to stop spamming; and spamming of clones is the last thing anyone wants in Epic. :smalltongue:

Thank you for the critique!


I am of the opinion that this class's mechanics for spellcasting are fine, but need to be slowed down. Make it so you don't start out with spells, and you don't get access to really high level spells. Think the bard. While it does have spellcasting, it only gets up to level 6, and not very much. I think that that would fix most of thi's class's problems.The problem with that is that, most of the classes with slower progression, don't really get that at all.

Bards get Irresistible Dance at level 6, as opposed to at Level 8 like Sorcerers and Wizards, and get many of their spells at earlier "spell levels" than the Wizards do, even if it's around the same class level. The only difference is the Save DCs.

It needs to start out with spells because otherwise, it has nothing to do at Level 1, which is a huge deficiency in my eyes.


I love this class, but I think 9th level spells in any class that's doing anything else at all is a little too much (I'm looking at you druid!). Either it stretches you too thin, and you ignore one of your mechanics (druid+animal companion), or you get way too strong because of interactions (druid+wild shape).I loathe dead levels. Even if I have crappy class features, I'd take 'em over dead levels, even on a Full Casting class.

Even if I were to restrict the spells to a lower level, it'd play havoc with everything else. There are spell lists of 4, 5, 6, and 9. I'd have to either go through all the spell lists and choose which ones are allowed, which means anybody who doesn't have hte books with those lists in is screwed, or create my own list for it. Which would be a lot of busy work which would hurt the class's versatility, which is the whole point of it.

Mithril Leaf
2012-04-09, 09:53 PM
I just wanted to let you know that both I and my DM think this class is phenomenal. In my current campaign I'm playing a Half-giant psion, but if he doesn't work out, I'm going to be making a Neraphim Traveller, such good synergy there. Very nice class.

Hazuki
2012-04-10, 09:07 AM
I just wanted to let you know that both I and my DM think this class is phenomenal. In my current campaign I'm playing a Half-giant psion, but if he doesn't work out, I'm going to be making a Neraphim Traveller, such good synergy there. Very nice class.Thank you! I'm very glad you like it. :smallsmile: