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XionUnborn01
2012-03-31, 02:41 PM
I'm terrible with tables on forums, so I'll leave the table out right now, but I'd like an evaluation of the my attempt to help out the fighter. I know it doesn't fix some of the biggest problems but I'm not trying to make this a godly class, just give it some help.

Fighter

HD: d10
Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (all skills, taken separately), Listen, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Survival, Plus one more skill.
Skillpoints: 6+Int (x4 at 1st level)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0| Bonus Feat, Weapon Versatility, Focused Training I, Commander's Tongue

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0| Bonus Feat, Combat Sight (blindsense)

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1| Learned Ability, Warlord's Knowledge, Commander's Tongue

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Focused Training II, Inspiring Strike, Armor Master (1)

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1| Bonus Feat, Commander's Tongue

6th|
+6/1|
+5|
+5|
+2| Learned Ability, Penetrate Defenses

7th|
+7/2|
+5|
+5|
+2| Commander's Tongue, Crack Shell

8th|
+8/3|
+6|
+6|
+2| Bonus Feat, Combat Sight (blindsight), Focused Training III

9th|
+9/4|
+6|
+6|
+3| Learned Ability, Commander's Tongue, Armor Master (2)

10th|
+10/5|
+7|
+7|
+3| Warlord's Prowess, Overpowering Attack

11th|
+11/6/1|
+7|
+7|
+3| Bonus Feat, Commander's Tongue

12th|
+12/7/2|
+8|
+8|
+4| Combat Sight (tremorsense), Focused Training III, Learned Ability

13th|
+13/8/3|
+8|
+8|
+8| Commander's Tongue

14th|
+14/9/4|
+9|
+9|
+4| Bonus Feat, Armor Master (3)

15th|
+15/10/5|
+9|
+9|
+5| Learned Ability, Commander's Tongue

16th|
+16/11/6/1|
+10|
+10|
+5|

17th|
+17/12/7/2|
+10|
+10|
+5| Bonus Feat, Commander's Tongue

18th|
+18/13/8/3|
+11|
+11|
+6| Learned Ability

19th|
+19/14/9/4|
+11|
+11|
+6| Commander's Tongue, Armor Master (5)

20th|
+20/15/10/5|
+12|
+12|
+6| Bonus Feat, Ageless Veteran
[/table]




Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). In addition, a fighter may choose one exotic weapon and armor to gain proficiency with.

Bonus Feats: A fighter gains a bonus feat at 1st level, 2nd level, then every three levels after that (5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the list of fighter bonus feats, but the fighter may ignore any ability score requirements of the feat.

Combat Sight: Battles are won by awareness as well as strength of arms, and the fighter knows this. At 2nd level, the fighter gains blindsense at a range of 5ft per class level.
At 8th level, the fighter gains blindsight out to 5ft per 2 class levels.
At 12th level, the fighter gains tremor sense out to 5ft per 2 class levels.

Weapon Versatility:(1st Level) Fighters are trained in all schools of weapons. Because of their broad knowledge, a fighter with feats that are specified for a weapon such as Weapon Focus, can be retrained to any weapon in the fighter’s possession with five full rounds of practice.

Focused Training: Fighters are trained intensely on two of the most basic abilities; Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, the bread and butter of combat. At first level, the fighter gains Weapon Focus with a weapon of their choice as a bonus feat, at 4th level a fighter gains Weapon Specialization with the chosen weapon, at 8th level the fighter gains Greater Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon, and at 12th level the fighter gains Greater Weapon Specialization with the chosen weapon. These feats may be switched to another weapon via the fighter’s Weapon Versatility ability. Additionally, the fighter gains a bonus on attack and damage rolls while wielding the weapon specified by these feats equal to +1/4 class level.

Learned Ability: A fighter can learn from other combatants he meets, adapting their fighting style into his, achieving his own special way of combat. At 3rd level and every 3 levels after (6th, 9th, etc.) the fighter may choose to gain one ability from the list below. All abilities are Extraordinary unless otherwise noted.
Sneak attack: The fighter gains 1d6 sneak attack. This ability can be taken multiple times, each instance increasing the ability by 1d6.
Evasion: The fighter gains Evasion, as per the Rogue, though it may be used in any type of armor.

Improved Evasion: The fighter gains Improved Evasion, as per the rogue though this may be used in any type of armor. The fighter must have Evasion to gain this ability, either from this class or from another. The fighter must be at least level 9 to take this ability.

Conviction: A Fighter can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower. If he makes a successful Will save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Fighter does not gain the benefit of conviction.

Improved Conviction: This ability functions as conviction, except the fighter now takes only half damage even on a failed save. The fighter must have Conviction to gain this ability, either from this class or from another. The fighter must be at least level 9 to take this ability.

Tenacity: A Fighter can resist magical and unusual attacks with great fortitude. If he makes a successful Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Fighter does not gain the benefit of tenacity.

Improved Tenacity: This ability functions as tenacity, except the fighter now takes only half damage even on a failed save. The fighter must have Tenacity to gain this ability, either from this class or from another. The fighter must be at least level 9 to take this ability.

Favored Enemy: The fighter can take this ability to gain a favored enemy as a Ranger. The fighter must gains the same bonuses as a ranger would. This ability can be taken up to three times, each instance increasing the bonuses the same way a ranger does.

Lay on Hands: The fighter gains the lay on hands ability of the paladin. To determine the amount he can heal, his Paladin level is equal to his fighter level minus 2. This is a Supernatural ability.

Animal Companion: The fighter gains an animal companion like the Druid. To determine the types of companions he can have and it’s abilities, his druid level is equal to his fighter level minus 5.

Fast Movement: The fighter gains a +10ft bonus to his land speed. This bonus is halved when he is in medium or heavy armor, or carries a heavy load.

Improved Fast Movement: The fighter gains an additional +20ft to his land speed. Additionally, his fast movement bonuses are now only halved in have armor or when carrying a heavy load. The fighter must have taken the fast movement ability from this class, and must be 10th level to take this ability.

Trapfinding: The fighter gains trapfinding as a Rogue, as well as trapsense +1/3 levels.

Uncanny Dodge: The fighter gains uncanny dodge as the Barbarian.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: The fighter gains Improved uncanny dodge as the Barbarian. The fighter must have taken Uncanny Dodge as a class feature from this class, or have had it already as a class feature and must be 9th level.

Spellcasting: The fighter gains knowledge of three 1st level spells, from either the sorcerer/wizard list, cleric, or druid list. Each of these spells is usable a number of times per day equal to the fighter’s Int, Wis, or Cha modifier, whichever they choose. This is a supernatural ability.

Greater Spellcasting: The fighter gains knowledge of three 2nd level spells and two additional 1st level spells, each usable a number of times per day equal to the modifier of whichever ability the fighter chose for their Spellcasting ability. The fighter must have taken the Spellcasting ability from this class to gain this ability and must be 9th level. This is a supernatural ability.
NOTE: I'm worried that all fighters will take the spellcasting ability, is that really a problem? I'm not sure.


Warlord’s Knowledge: (3rd level) Fighters glean bits of knowledge from shared war stories and historical texts. At 3rd level, the fighter gains an ability that functions as Bardic Knowledge, using the fighter levels instead of bard. The fighter also gains a +3 bonus on Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (Geography), and Knowledge (architecture and engineering).

Commander’s Tongue: War bands consist of people from all places and dialects. At 1st level and every 2 levels afterwords the fighter adds one additional language to his list of known languages.

Inspiring Strike: At 4th level, the fighter learns to rally his allies with his fighting prowess. Each round the fighter lands a successful melee or ranged attack, all allies gain a bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saves equal to the number of attacks he lands. These bonuses last until the fighter’s next turn. If he somehow gains additional attacks after the end of his turn but before his next turn, the number of attacks landed is added to the bonuses given to his allies, though they end when the others do.

Armor Master: All fighters are trained to treat their armor as a second skin. At 4th level, this takes on an extraordinary quality. All armor worn by the fighter has its maximum dexterity bonus to AC is increased by 1 and the armor check penalty is decreased by 1. At 9th level these bonuses increase to 2, at 14th level they are again increased to 3, and at 19th level, these are increased to 5. If these reductions reduce the armor check penalty to 0, the armor is treated as one category lighter whenever it would be beneficial. Additionally, the fighter may sleep in any type of armor without becoming fatigued.

Penetrate Defenses: Fighters are adept at penetrating the natural defenses of the monsters in their world. At 6th level, the fighter discovers how to bypass these with a well-aimed strike. By taking a standard action to make an appropriate knowledge check with a DC equal to the creature’s CR+5, the fighter can ignore a certain amount of damage reduction. For every 5 he succeeds the check by, he reduces the targets effective damage reduction by 1, but only against attacks from the fighter. This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s intelligence modifier.

Crack Shell: Upon gaining his 7th level, as a full round action, the fighter can make one attack aimed at destroying his enemy’s defense. The fighter makes his attack at his highest base attack bonus, using any feats at his disposal. If he hits the target must succeed a fortitude save with a DC equal to damage dealt+ the fighter’s intelligence modifier. If the creature fails the save, its natural armor and damage reduction are both reduced by 1 per 5 points of damage dealt and any fast healing or regeneration the target has is stopped for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s intelligence modifier. If the creature is healed in any way, it gains back 1 point of damage reduction and 1 point of natural armor for each 5 points of damage healed. If the target is wearing armor, the fighter may opt to have the armor bonus reduced by half the amount that the natural armor would take. If this reduces the bonus below half, the armor’s maximum dexterity bonus to AC is decreased by 1, if this decreases the armor’s bonus to 0; the armor is broken and falls off the target. Broken armor can be healed with a craft check DC equal to the DC used to make it. If it is magical, there is a 30% chance for each of the enchantments to be destroyed (treat each instance of +1 as a separate enchantment).

Warlord’s Prowess:A fighter must always keep his head, no matter the situation. At 10th level, he gains immunity to fear effects and all allies within 20ft gain a bonus on saves against fear equal to the fighter’s intelligence modifier, due to his constant warnings and knowledge of the enemy. If the fighter fails a saving throw against a spell that would somehow change his attitude or govern his actions such as charm person or dominate person, he gains an additional save the next round with a bonus equal to his intelligence modifier to the save for learning from his previous mistakes.

Overpowering Attack: Upon attaining 10th level, the fighter learns patience over speed. By spending a standard action to deliver a single attack, its power is greatly increased. The fighter deals (2+number of attacks foregone+constitution modifier) times damage. If he makes any other attacks the round this ability is used, such as attacks of opportunity or those granted by spells, those attacks also benefit from this ability. If the fighter uses this ability when he would not normally be able to use his multiple attacks (such as at the end of a charge), he doesn't gain a bonus from forgone attacks. Creatures immune to critical hits are not immune to the extra damage from this ability.

Ageless Veteran: At 20th level, the fighter has seen it all and done it all. The fighter becomes immune morale penalties, paralysis, and polymorph effects if he chooses. Additionally, they are counted as an outsider whenever it would be beneficial. They gain damage reduction equal to half their class level that is overcome by weapons enchanted with both parts of the fighter’s alignment (if the fighter is neutral on one or more side of their alignment, they chose which type of DR to gain). Lastly, they gain spell resistance equal to 10+HD+Int modifier which they can suppress and resume at any time, regardless of whether or not it is their turn.






So there it is. I don't think it's anything too amazing but I'd like your opinions on it so far. Also, if anyone has abilities that they think should be added to the Learned Ability list, please tell me, I looked through a few books but couldn't really find a whole lot out of core that made sense on its own but I didn't scour every source I knew of.

EDIT: Changed a few things, this should result in a less MAD class, I believe I got everything changed to either Strength or Intelligence, with the exception of Overpowering Attack, though that's still in the works.

EDIT 2: Changed the levels gained on a couple things, but more importantly I added a table.

PersonMan
2012-03-31, 03:12 PM
This belongs in the Homebrew subforum.

Oh, and here is the answer to your table woes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677)

It seems like an alright fix, but it doesn't fix problems like the lack of methods for dealing with flying enemies, few out of combat options, etc.

Big Fau
2012-03-31, 04:23 PM
To expand upon the last part of PersonMan's post:




Why the Fighter is Tier 5

Lack of Unique Class Features: The main draws of the Fighter class are bonus feats, Base Attack Bonus, armor and weapon proficiencies, and a d10 HD. It's "class features" all draw upon a common pool of rules: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Every other class in the entire game is capable of utilizing those rules.

Item Dependency: Caused by the Fighter's lack of class features, a Fighter must use magic items to shore up it's weaknesses (Note: Every class is guilty of this to some extent). Without these items, a Fighter is at a horrible disadvantage. However, a Fighter is stuck on the Wealth By Level guideline: They have no reliable means of bypassing that reliance on the WBL (Crafting using the Craft skill is too slow, as is the Profession skill). Furthermore, the magic items a fighter needs consume a huge amount of an individual character's WBL (Magic Weapons are the only items in all DnD capable of hitting 200KGP without using the Custom Magic Item rules).

Multiple Atribute Dependency: Fighters need Con for HP, Str for Damage, Dex for AC, and a varying amount of Int/Wis/Cha depending on feat selection. Attempting to make a Dex-focused Fighter means you will lag behind in damage output, as you have no class features that support the option (worse: Many feats that make use of Weapon Finesse have class feature requirements).

Build Identity Crisis: Every Lockdown Chain Tripper has the exact same feat list. Every Charger has the exact same feat list. Every Archer has the exact same feat list. It gets repetitive very quickly. Furthermore, some builds are highly impractical. Because of these builds, attempting to deviate from the established norm will result in a large liability for your party if you ignore the basics of your style. A Charger who does not have Shock Trooper will be horribly incapable, a Lockdown Chain Tripper who doesn't have Stand Still will not be able to establish his lockdown, and so forth.

Stagnate Combat Options: As stated above, the only actions a Fighter can take during a combat encounter are: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Using Martial Study to gain additional actions results in you feeling inferior to the Warblade, who can do everything you can, while having a wider arsenal of combat options.

Lack of Out-Of-Combat Flexibility: How do Fighters check for traps? Walking into them. How do Fighters keep watch? Hoping CC ranks in Spot/Listen will actually amount to anything (which it won't, as you lack the Skill Points due to MAD). How do Fighters gather information on a crime lord? They don't without CC ranks, and even then, the rest of the party is better at it. These are but a few of the OOC issues a Fighter faces. Note: Every one of these issues can be addressed by Role Playing or via Magic Items, however doing so is not a part of the Fighter class.

Poor Quality Feat Choices: Take a look at the Fighter's Bonus Feat choices. How many of them are actually useful?

Action Economy: Because the Fighter was printed in the PHB, it was unable to utilize the Swift and Immediate actions. Feats that came post-XPH attempted to correct this issue, but it wasn't enough (very few of those feats are actually useable). In addition, Magic Items that made use of the Swift/Immediate actions were often limited in uses/day, and many of those items were poorly priced/underpowered.

NOhara24
2012-03-31, 04:47 PM
See: Dungeoncrasher Fighter.

eggs
2012-03-31, 05:00 PM
It looks very useful, but two things stand out at me:
This loses the level 6 bonus feat, which is disproportionally valuable due to common level 5/6 requirements on the most powerful feats. It's not crippling or anything, but it would be annoying.
Overpowering Attack looks very useful, but its phrasing is a bit funky (if it's a standard action, what attacks are being forsaken? Does not taking an offhand attack affect it? What about Haste, Improved Two Weapon Fighting or some sort of Flurry?) and it looks like it's going to default to around 12x damage, which is frankly just too much. I like the idea a lot, but I'd like to see it available to the fighter earlier (to address mobility problems) and toned down a bit. If it came online at level 6 and gave (2+1/5 levels past 6)x damage, it would deal with the Fighter's mobility problem, and allow a more reasonable ~300 damage at ECL 20.

As has been mentioned, the Fighter will still have trouble with flight, but I do think this will help with some of its other issues, such as frailty and out of combat utility.

I don't think it's unreasonable to leave flight up to WBL, but if you do want to address that point, the best way would probably be tweaking the Animal Companion option in the proposition here. If the Fighter could get a mount with appropriate mobility and durability, that would leave most of the Fighter's specific issues resolved (barring the deeper, systemic caster v. noncaster versatility problems).

Coidzor
2012-03-31, 07:01 PM
To expand upon the last part of PersonMan's post:

That's handy. Was that extemporaneous or is there a source on that?

Averis Vol
2012-03-31, 08:12 PM
it looks like a nice remake, but what i'm seeing amongst the other issues that have already brought up is that you throw in int and charisma as needed stats now, effectively making them a 5 stat class. that puts them up there with monk and paladin. what you could do is try to take the factotum brain over brawn idea and go with maybe perceptive evasion or something that lets you use int instead of dex for the dex bonus to ac (which ever is higher i guess?) because i agree with the notion that fighters need to be intelligent, especially in a world thats prone to blasting them with fireballs. you could also replace warlords prowess wording to turn it to something like.

"A fighter must always keep his head, no matter the situation. At 9th level, he gains immunity to fear effects and all allies within 20ft gain a bonus on saves against fear equal to the fighter’s intelligence modifier, due to his constant warnings and knowledge of the enemy. If the fighter fails a saving throw against a spell that would somehow change his attitude or govern his actions such as charm person or dominate person, he gains an additional save the next round with a bonus equal to his intelligence modifier to the save for learning from his previous mistakes." or something along those lines. fighters really don't need to be more MAD.

Big Fau
2012-03-31, 10:43 PM
That's handy. Was that extemporaneous or is there a source on that?

That was from the old BG boards. Saw it during a debate on Tier 5's IIRC. Not the first time I've reposted it here though. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11267167&postcount=4)

XionUnborn01
2012-04-01, 12:23 AM
First; If someone can move this to the homebrew forum, I'd be much obliged as I don't know how to move it myself.


I noticed today after I posted this that I had thrown abilities in that require way more mental stats that it is even sane to ask for...I promptly hit myself in the face.


This loses the level 6 bonus feat, which is disproportionally valuable due to common level 5/6 requirements on the most powerful feats. It's not crippling or anything, but it would be annoying.
That wasn't something I even thought of, the feat progression could easily be changed, that's hardly set in stone.


Overpowering Attack looks very useful, but its phrasing is a bit funky (if it's a standard action, what attacks are being forsaken? Does not taking an offhand attack affect it? What about Haste, Improved Two Weapon Fighting or some sort of Flurry?) and it looks like it's going to default to around 12x damage, which is frankly just too much. I like the idea a lot, but I'd like to see it available to the fighter earlier (to address mobility problems) and toned down a bit. If it came online at level 6 and gave (2+1/5 levels past 6)x damage, it would deal with the Fighter's mobility problem, and allow a more reasonable ~300 damage at ECL 20.
This...is the problem I ran into while trying to write it out. I couldn't think of a way to word it to make it not overly complicated. You do seem to understand the idea I was going for, and if you or someone else could come up with a better way to write the ability it would be very appreciated.


As has been mentioned, the Fighter will still have trouble with flight, but I do think this will help with some of its other issues, such as frailty and out of combat utility.

Flight is always the big issue, but as I said, I'm not trying to fix every problem just make them better at doing SOMETHING. Other than throwing in some crazy jump ability (which I did think of doing) I don't know how to handle it other than letting them use WBL to compensate. I was hoping that people would agree that the fighter had more out of combat use, maybe not as much as other classes but at least he doesn't have to sit there and stare while others are helping.


"A fighter must always keep his head, no matter the situation. At 9th level, he gains immunity to fear effects and all allies within 20ft gain a bonus on saves against fear equal to the fighter’s intelligence modifier, due to his constant warnings and knowledge of the enemy. If the fighter fails a saving throw against a spell that would somehow change his attitude or govern his actions such as charm person or dominate person, he gains an additional save the next round with a bonus equal to his intelligence modifier to the save for learning from his previous mistakes."

That's genius! If you don't mind I'd like to steal that. Like I said at the beginning of this post, I realized my MAD increase and felt stupid for it. Ideally I'd like to make this class a two stat class, probably Str (or Dex) and Int.

XionUnborn01
2012-04-01, 12:27 AM
Oh, and here is the answer to your table woes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677)

Thanks a bunch, I knew there had to be a thread like this somewhere. I'll add the table tomorrow.

Averis Vol
2012-04-01, 01:25 AM
That's genius! If you don't mind I'd like to steal that. Like I said at the beginning of this post, I realized my MAD increase and felt stupid for it. Ideally I'd like to make this class a two stat class, probably Str (or Dex) and Int.

absolutely, go ahead. if it can be refined i would love to start using this with my group, so by all means.

XionUnborn01
2012-04-01, 12:11 PM
I notice now that 16th level is a dead level, does anyone have a suggestion for an ability that could fill it in? It could be the place to throw in a jump based flight ability, though I don't exactly know how to work that out.

eggs
2012-04-01, 12:50 PM
This...is the problem I ran into while trying to write it out. I couldn't think of a way to word it to make it not overly complicated. You do seem to understand the idea I was going for, and if you or someone else could come up with a better way to write the ability it would be very appreciated.
I'm not actually clear whether it's supposed to work with Haste, Flurry or TWF. I think it would be best to explicitly state what does and does not increase the multiplier, both so it's easier to understand and so you recognize just how big the multiplier is.


Flight is always the big issue, but as I said, I'm not trying to fix every problem just make them better at doing SOMETHING. Other than throwing in some crazy jump ability (which I did think of doing) I don't know how to handle it other than letting them use WBL to compensate. I was hoping that people would agree that the fighter had more out of combat use, maybe not as much as other classes but at least he doesn't have to sit there and stare while others are helping.
No worries about not addressing everything. It would be a bit wonky if the Fighter were able to fly under his own power, but it might be useful to provide some sort of mount with character level-based survivability. My initial thought is a special mount somewhere in the level 4 to 6 range. Just sketching some ideas out:

Crib the Familiar's mechanics relating to base saves, skills, hit dice, feats, etc. Increase HP to the same as the fighter's. This will keep the mount's survival stats at a reasonable level, but keep it from pursuing feat chains or abilities that would outshine the Fighter's character itself. I'd probably advance BAB with character level, but cut it down a bit - as a Cleric of the Fighter's HD or something - to keep the Fighter in the spotlight.

Allow an explicit menu of reasonable mounts that expands with Fighter level. Start with things like Horses, ponies and riding dogs, but expand into things like large+ vermin, Manticores, Pegasuses and eventually some higher level-appropriate monsters like dragons, Bebeliths and Leonals.

Instead of summoning the monster, make the Fighter spend a couple days to train a creature he's already encountered. This would make more sense from the fiction and would make the mounts a bit less expendable than the Druid's AC. I'd handle the mechanic by allowing a Fighter to make an easy Handle Animal check (v. 10+creature's base HD+4 for nonanimals) every day until success, just to keep mechanics in line with the fiction.

Alternatively, the Fighter could have a built-in magic weapon with properties to address this kid of issue. It would keep the Fighter itself in line with the mundane hero concept, but still allow some magic to be injected into the system via a sword that permits flight, teleportation, true seeing, etc.

But I'd agree that it's not unreasonable to just write 10k off from the Fighter's paycheck to account for a flight mechanism if it keeps the game fiction and mechanics coherent; I'm just trying to toss some other ideas around.

Averis Vol
2012-04-01, 04:44 PM
I'm not actually clear whether it's supposed to work with Haste, Flurry or TWF. I think it would be best to explicitly state what does and does not increase the multiplier, both so it's easier to understand and so you recognize just how big the multiplier is.


No worries about not addressing everything. It would be a bit wonky if the Fighter were able to fly under his own power, but it might be useful to provide some sort of mount with character level-based survivability. My initial thought is a special mount somewhere in the level 4 to 6 range. Just sketching some ideas out:

Crib the Familiar's mechanics relating to base saves, skills, hit dice, feats, etc. Increase HP to the same as the fighter's. This will keep the mount's survival stats at a reasonable level, but keep it from pursuing feat chains or abilities that would outshine the Fighter's character itself. I'd probably advance BAB with character level, but cut it down a bit - as a Cleric of the Fighter's HD or something - to keep the Fighter in the spotlight.

Allow an explicit menu of reasonable mounts that expands with Fighter level. Start with things like Horses, ponies and riding dogs, but expand into things like large+ vermin, Manticores, Pegasuses and eventually some higher level-appropriate monsters like dragons, Bebeliths and Leonals.

Instead of summoning the monster, make the Fighter spend a couple days to train a creature he's already encountered. This would make more sense from the fiction and would make the mounts a bit less expendable than the Druid's AC. I'd handle the mechanic by allowing a Fighter to make an easy Handle Animal check (v. 10+creature's base HD+4 for nonanimals) every day until success, just to keep mechanics in line with the fiction.

Alternatively, the Fighter could have a built-in magic weapon with properties to address this kid of issue. It would keep the Fighter itself in line with the mundane hero concept, but still allow some magic to be injected into the system via a sword that permits flight, teleportation, true seeing, etc.

But I'd agree that it's not unreasonable to just write 10k off from the Fighter's paycheck to account for a flight mechanism if it keeps the game fiction and mechanics coherent; I'm just trying to toss some other ideas around.

well technically they could do this already. anyone can go buy a gryphon, it just depends what HD you want it to be. alternatively, you could give fighters some mount based feat in exchange for two skill tricks when you teach them their first set. like instead of that first six skill tricks you could teach your mount 1 feat and 4 skill tricks and so on, something to make the distinction between a fighters expertly trained mount and your normal run of the mill creature of its type. i guess you could also give it the warbeast template from MMII since thats pretty much its purpose.

XionUnborn01
2012-04-02, 04:14 PM
I'm not actually clear whether it's supposed to work with Haste, Flurry or TWF. I think it would be best to explicitly state what does and does not increase the multiplier, both so it's easier to understand and so you recognize just how big the multiplier is.

This is how I thought of it working in my head;
Standard action, you give up all your iterative attacks and gain one big one. So, say a 13th level fighter with 18 Con uses overpowering attack. He would do (2+2(iterative attacks)+4 (con)) X8 Damage...and now that I look at it like that, I seriously don't know why I thought that was fair. Even going with sword and board fighter using a longsword that has decent Con and Str at 13th level (say 20 minimum for each during a fight) That's...148.5 damage from one attack (4.5 longsword+7 (focused training)+5 (str) for 16.5 damage, x9 from 2+2 (iterative)+5 con). Almost enough to drop a Storm Giant (CR 13) in one hit...enough to completely kill every other MM1 giant except the CR17 Frost Giant, who would only have 83 HP left.

Maybe ignore the iterative attacks? That drops it to a more tame 115.5 damage.

The idea was then to let them also get the extra attack from haste at the same multiplier. I guess I never thought of how to do that with TWF/Flurry.


No worries about not addressing everything. It would be a bit wonky if the Fighter were able to fly under his own power, but it might be useful to provide some sort of mount with character level-based survivability. My initial thought is a special mount somewhere in the level 4 to 6 range. Just sketching some ideas out:

First off, if I give them a mount, should I get rid of the ability to gain an animal companion? Then again, If they want to play beastmaster that's fine by me.

I wouldn't be against giving them a mount, that fits the theme well enough I believe. I'd have to throw ride back into their skills but that's not a big deal.

I think your idea is actually a perfect addition to the class. I'll start trying to compile a list of mounts available, how about gain at 5th level, then new selections at 10th, 15th, etc? Using your suggestions for stealing the familiar stuff seems like a good spot for the mount to be. I'll try to compile a short list of mounts today.

GolemsVoice
2012-04-02, 04:33 PM
Won'T say much, just adding something I noticed. It would be wise to throw in some line like "arcane spell failure does not apply here" to the Spellcasting Learned Ability. Otherwise, they would be hindered by the fighter's very shtick, which doesn't seem intended.

XionUnborn01
2012-04-02, 08:10 PM
Won'T say much, just adding something I noticed. It would be wise to throw in some line like "arcane spell failure does not apply here" to the Spellcasting Learned Ability. Otherwise, they would be hindered by the fighter's very shtick, which doesn't seem intended.

Do I need to put that in? I thought that it wouldn't be an issue because it's a supernatural ability.

XionUnborn01
2012-04-04, 11:09 PM
Minor Update:

After trying a few different approaches to the mount idea (and none of them turning out any good in my opinion, with most becoming convoluted and confusing to myself) I have a few ideas that I'm requesting some help on.

First off, I want to make it a 'new' feature, not a rehash of another feature so I decided to call it a Pet. As far as I know, there isn't a class that has a "pet", an official class at least.

I thought of making lists like the familiar/animal companion, but I don't know how best to approach that, so I thought something like this could work. Please keep in mind that this is my first attempt to make a familiar/companion feature for a class.

The fighter could train any creature if it fits into one of the categories that is available to them at their current level. The creature cannot have more HD than the fighter's class level, and certain types have lower limits.

This is what I was thinking for the list

5th level: the fighter can train any creature of the Animal type

10th level: the fighter can train any creature of the Magical Beast or Vermin type, but it's HD must be 2 lower than the fighter's class level

15th level: the fighter can train any creature of the Plant of Undead type but it's HD must be 3 lower than the fighter's class level

20th level: the fighter can train any creature of the Outsider or Abberation type but it's HD must be 4 lower than the fighter's class level.

Any creature trained must have an intelligence score, and the fighter must make an appropriate knowledge check every day with a DC of 10+creature's HD until it succeeds two days in a row.

The abilities gained and such will be finalized later, but how does that sound for a start? Horrible? Awesome? Stupid? I honestly have no idea.

Fitz10019
2012-04-06, 07:08 AM
I notice now that 16th level is a dead level, does anyone have a suggestion for an ability that could fill it in? It could be the place to throw in a jump based flight ability, though I don't exactly know how to work that out.

Perhaps the ability to improve magic item activation, so an item that requires a standard action only requires an immediate action. That will increase the usefulness of a lot of gear. If he chooses a flying item to activate, he still has his full attack routine in the same round.

Effortless Activation: a seasoned fighter only needs a swift action to activate any magic item that he could activate normally.

Fitz10019
2012-04-06, 07:15 AM
Pet
You already have Animal Companion in the learned ability list. You could add an upgrade (costing a second Learned Ability selection) to Magical Beast. I don't see a need to upgrade beyond that, or to introduce a whole new ability. $0.02

Clawhound
2012-04-06, 11:37 AM
I was poking around this subject late last year. Follow the link in my sig. You don't have to like any of the ideas that I tried out, but maybe you'll find some idea worth stealing.